
It's been four days since I documented my own domestic violence, in almost real-time, between me and the Farmer. The most common response I've heard is some variation of: "Zero tolerance for domestic abuse!"
And you know what? I have zero tolerance for things I am not prone to tolerate as well. That's easy, isn't it?
It's much harder to see the issue from the person's perspective who has the issue.
I've spent days reading the 500 comments on my blog and the comments about my situation on other blogs, and I'm absolutely shocked by the collective hatred and disdain for women who are in violent relationships.
Here's what someone said on my blog: "Victims of domestic abuse suck at pressing charges."
Yes. It's true. Women don't like to press charges. Because they love the guy. You, maybe, are unable to fall in love with a guy who is violent. Good for you. But do you have to hate women who aren't like you?
For some reason, people feel it is honorable to rip a woman to shreds if she is living with domestic violence. Here's an example from the comments section on James Altucher's blog:
"[Penelope Trunk is] out of her mind to think that her children are not being abused. She, in fact, is as guilty of that abuse as the farmer that beats her."
The high-and-mightiness that emanates from the public discussion of domestic violence is breathtaking. Everyone is an expert. Everyone knows what's right.
Here's an example from the comments section on Jezebel, a supposedly feminist community that is full of anger towards women who live in violent households.
"No one gets another chance to hit me. I don't care that I have the training to fight back.
"One incident, and YOU LEAVE. Violent people don't get better without a lot of work, and it's not *your* problem. Once someone raises a hand to you, you owe that person *nothing.* It's likely that the violent behavior will escalate. Sometimes it is deliberate. Either way, YOU LEAVE."
This person sees everything very clearly. If there's abuse, you leave. Even if it's small. Because all small abuse gets huge.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that if the guy hits you twice, the kids are better off living in a single-parent home and hearing their dad called an abuser. What people do say is that the odds are it won't stop. The odds are it will get worse. The odds are, the kids will be worse off, in the end, having lived with the dad.
But the truth is that we do not believe that men who leave two, visible marks on their wife should lose their kids.
You know how I know we don't believe this? Because if Child Protective Services sees two bruises on a kid at two different times, the kid is not removed from the home. Think about it: Is that kid better off with parents who might be able to stop, or in the Foster Care System for the rest of their life?
So we are making bets, right? Is it better to leave, because it is likely to get worse? Or is it better to stay because the benefits from things improving, although unlikely, are huge?
I'm in the startup community. It's the world of high risk. You bet big on yourself, you kill your family's credit, you put your house on the line, and maybe, just maybe, your company will make it.
So why wouldn't I bet big on myself now? I am not the whole problem in my family, but I am half. And over the last year I have described multiple situations where I was half the problem.
I can improve my own half and see what happens. Have you been to couple's therapy? There's a saying that a marriage is a gear system. If one gear changes, all the gears change.
Blog commenters will argue against this idea by telling me not to change because It's not my fault.
But really, how do they know? We know that I grew up in a home where there was lots of violence. So it's likely that I will be in that kind of house when I'm an adult. And surely it's possible that I am contributing to the mix since I am statistically likely to create a violent household. Here's another thing: You don't know what I did leading up to the bruise in the photo.
I'll tell you what my mom used to do leading up to my dad hitting her:
One night they were wallpapering. They had been wallpapering the living room after work for a week. My mom got mad at my dad and threw red paint all over the wallpaper. Ruined all their work. He didn't respond. He was stunned. Then she knocked over the table with the wallpaper and the glue. It ruined the newly varnished floors. He held her arms so she couldn't do anything else. He held tighter and tighter. She kicked him to get loose. She left no mark. He hit her in the face.
If she blogged about it, and showed the hand print on her face, she might get 500 commenters telling her it's not her fault.
Should she leave with me and my brother because our dad is violent and we should not live with him? Or should she work on her own behavior to see if she can single-handedly stop the violence?
I think the most grown-up, good parenting thing for her to do would be to understand her own behavior and stop it so that me and my brother could grow up in a home with both our parents. She didn't do that, of course. She had little insight into her own behavior and she and my dad ended up taking most of their anger out on me.
My mom had good choices she could have made because, in fact, part of the domestic violence was her fault.
"It's not your fault" completely limits a woman's choices, because you are saying that she is powerless to control the situation. And if you tell every woman "it's not your fault" then they can't improve. How do women get better at not creating a violent household? Probably by changing their behavior. This doesn't mean "always tiptoe around your spouse and become a mouse". But it can mean a wide range of positive changes.
We are all growing personally. It's not your fault is almost always a path to no growth. It's what Oprah founded her show on, right? Personal responsibility. Why don't we go there, first, before we go to "it's not your fault". The truth is that if we take responsibility for the problems in our lives, we can solve the problem. If we blame other people, we are always running. People who blame other people can't get along with siblings, can't get along at work, lose friends quickly. People who facilitate that behavior say, "It's not your fault."
Most of the success of my blog comes from my reliance on the idea of personal responsibility. There are no bad bosses–it's only you. If you can't get a job it's not because of the job market, it's because you are unemployable. And you can fix that. Your heavy workload is not because someone gave it to you — you gave it to yourself. People like what I say because I show them how they can fix anything when they take responsibility for fixing it. That's what I truly believe.
And that's why I'm staying with the Farmer.




the majority of comments were those of concern, another large percentage pointed out that the post is not the whole story, a few got very scared for your safety (that might be the backlash for blogging and drama in real time), some wrote from personal experience, some pointed out that your behavior might play a role. Others indicated they might react differently, some told their own stories. I guess I missed the ones who wrote about hatred towards battered women.
Posted by redrock on January 1, 2012 at 3:33 pm | permalink |
I support you, Penelope.
Posted by Bill on January 1, 2012 at 3:41 pm | permalink |
Ha!! See nelope, knew it. The poking was/is part of it. You don't have to mention me in your article but I was right on. You had some fault in it….at least your admitting it.
The only other thing Nel is this…If a person is not medicated….BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN!!! You can be sorry, try better, hope for more…It's not going to happen because your brain chemistry is off. How do you argue with that??
MARK MY WORDS…THERE WILL BE MORE DOMEST VIOLENCE POSTINGS…The root of the problem needs to be addressed.
One more thing…Nel, I'm gonna go on a limb and say that you possibly deal with Multiple Personalities….BUT…this is not your fault…it stems from the sexual/physical abuse. You can continue to fight it and do your best but the "internal infection" will always be the root/one of the roots of your problems that will continue to flare up and cause you problems unless you address it.
For a start…Read "Switching Time"-A doctor's harrowing story of treating a woman with 17 personalities Richard Baer is the author.
Posted by smokytrees on January 1, 2012 at 6:24 pm | permalink |
Amen!
Posted by Nono on January 1, 2012 at 7:24 pm | permalink |
It's very common that an abuser will tell the person they are abusing that their "brain chemistry is off" or their "thinking is off" or that they're "crazy" or that there are other things wrong with them. Please do not look to a person who has abused you for information about yourself. They don't say things like this to you because they're true.
Posted by Christine on January 1, 2012 at 7:34 pm | permalink |
I was psychologically abused for 18 years, to the point where I attempted to take my own life because I was made to believe that I was worthless and insane and a burden to everyone. This is what abusers feed on….
Posted by Dorothy @ Singular Insanity on January 6, 2012 at 5:46 pm | permalink |
I think the violence happenning between these two will continue at the expense of the children because Penelope will not leave her meal ticket. Despite all her business accumen she alludes to, I doubt she makes enough to support herself. It has been a big fake all along, this 40ish Aspergers woman dragging fatherless kids house to house to be with men who won't give her oral sex but she lets them urinatre on her. This current one seems to stick and actually takes a liking to the kids. But at the end of the day when Penelope needs to get hours of heavy thought processes off her chest and he wants to sleep, well it goes sour so she feels the need to tweet when she checks her vaginal mucus during a meeting. It seems as if she has trouble with boundries. To live like that can come to no good but to tow along a couple of autistic kids into the fray seems immoral. I believe violence begats violence whether is is nagging and demanding till the other blows or repressed anger explodes on a hair trigger. Or if you know it is going to recurr and you stay in harms way taking the brunt so you have a drama for the next blog installment. Everyone has a responsibility except the children. iT IS NO LONGER ABOUT YOU,YOU, YOU Penelope. You must shift that focus always trained on yourself as the victim or the perpetrator or the sex image all mixed together and get a clear view of what you are doing to your kids while acting out your fantasies. At the end of the day, Here is a guy who whas let you in his family home, fake married you to keep you out of irs trouble, works hard, askd for little, you give him little in the way of comfort and then demand he hear your crazy rantings when you say, how you say, where you say. It ia all violence and everyone gets to feel it especially your kids.
I don't believe you have cash or remunerationm from your 'startups", you knew how to write a blog directed toward 20 somethings, easy to fool from a 40ish functioning aspie, and now you've latched onto your meal ticket but finding reprecussuions when yoiu dump more than he wants to tale. I say GET OUT and leave that poor man alone. You've driven him to distraction in his own home, have a large following believing your biased blow by blows, his family ran when they saw you coming. I don't think you have ever worked enough in your own life to stpport you and your kids. From the day I first read your advice I thoght this was a sham but I was an ex-pat in New Zealand soon to be returning home and thought I'd try to get a heads up on the lay of the land. But the more I read, the more I though this was a sattire or something stupid that x,y & zers would read 'cause they were too nyoung and inexperiencec to know bettre.
Now I believe it is the sthing, a nmentally ill mother of two playing out her pathology, which narcissm is involved along with other varied and asundry disorders. Kind of like the Octomom. So somepeople have the time and energy to bolster up and play into her manipulations. I like to say it like I see it and later down the track if I am partially right, it validates my sense of smell.
Posted by Virginia on January 2, 2012 at 1:07 am | permalink |
Wow! I don't have both sides of P & F's story. I know however that you can be responsible for pushing someone to breaking point – men and women do it to each other all the time. I question the huge vitriolic anger in your comments though. If it evokes this response from you the I reckon you should stop reading P's blog. Now.
Posted by Anita on January 2, 2012 at 3:17 am | permalink |
Can anyone say "Broke Drama Queen"? Ya know, I pity the Farmer, no kidding…..his folks saw the nightmare coming, and made the only sensible choice. Thing is, P is whack, and most readers realize that….btw, my mother was worse than anyone would believe, and I really believe she was an aspy. Folks, she would literally hound my father saying the cruellest cap I've ever heard, and she couldn't stop herself…..I always thought it was gonna end up in murder, but it didn't.
Posted by Miles Allen on January 2, 2012 at 11:05 am | permalink |
Number One:
My apology for hitting "send" on my earlier post before editing, hence too much anger in my typo'd response.
Number Two:
I can't keep watching the destruction of these kids. I know this is just a blog and it's easy to be judgemental in the ether but I believe one thing to be true on P's blog -her kids are suffering.
The only thing that I believe on this blog is that these children are suffering at her hand
I don't want this in my inbox anymore.
Posted by Virginia on January 2, 2012 at 10:16 pm | permalink |
Virginia–If it makes you so angry that you write so poorly then you should seriously consider unsubscribing. Simple solution. You chose to read Penelope's blog quite extensively, yet you think it is a sham. Weird to think of a judgemental world traveler spending so much time reading a blog you hold is such low esteem. And you take the time to comment. Also, how can you really judge her finances. Do you have access to her tax returns? Are you a hardworking rich person or something? Or perhaps you are just a rich person who looks down on others. Your self righteousness is apalling. The sad thing is you aren't suggesting that she leave because of the violence like other people on this blog, you want her to leave the "poor man" alone because you find her issues irritating. So weird, Virginia, so incredibly weird. I can't imagine spending time reading a blog when I hate what I'm reading.
Posted by Sabine on January 4, 2012 at 10:43 am | permalink |
For heaven's sake, Virginia, please leave. You're an irritating narcissist with uninteresting thoughts.
Posted by ossicle on January 6, 2012 at 11:59 am | permalink |
I agree with every word in Virginia's post. I used to read Penelope's blog but stopped when I realized how much she lies. And also, to be blunt about it, I found her to be a disgusting pig. How ironic that the disgusting pig lives on a pig farm. I saw her name mentioned on a blog today (all commenters were in agreement that she is vile) and checked back in to this trainwreck blog to see what was going on. I've got to believe that there's something seriously wrong with her husband. Who, other than a crazy person, would enter in to a relationship with such a pathologically manipulative, horrible human being? I've said my piece, and now I'm outta here – this place is just as creepy as ever.
Posted by Jana on February 1, 2012 at 11:17 pm | permalink |
Good for you, Penelope. I think you explained brilliantly. It's your job to decide what to do with your life. We can be nervous at the risks, and we can worry about how we'll feel if it goes wrong for you, but you get to call the shots I was thinking yesterday, when you posted your list of top posts, headed by your favorite on your son selling his pig (also my favorite), that you had strong reasons for wanting things to work out. May they indeed do so! All the best to you.
Posted by csts on January 1, 2012 at 3:42 pm | permalink |
people are so crazy. Can you believe all the hateful comments!?
i think that it's reasonable the physical violence will continue because they both haven't workout the root of the problems. So yes, it hurts the kids when there is violence in the household.
but i guess they have the same 50/50 chance of being okay whether they stay with their parents and hopefully they work things out or they may continue beating each other, or going into the foster care system.
I read many people say that the kids should be taken away or that cps should be involved. really, they got the same 50/50 to land on a good household or an abusive one.
this is too complicated to be so simplistic with one liners advice!
Posted by karelys on January 2, 2012 at 1:09 pm | permalink |
so do i!
Posted by Mark Ifi on January 1, 2012 at 3:44 pm | permalink |
I wish you lots of success in improving your situation in 2012.
Posted by Frank on January 1, 2012 at 3:46 pm | permalink |
There is surely some middle ground between taking away a woman's agency in her life and relationships ("you are never responsible") and accepting violence (as a consequence of your actions) from those who claim to love you.
I've never been in a violent relationship, so I don't have a personal experience with this. But quite a few of your commenters have experienced it, and have moved on to form non-violent partnerships (at least according to them). So it seems it is possible to change the situation…by BOTH changing your own behavior AND by changing partners.
I'm curious – did your children's father hit you?
Posted by brooklynchick on January 1, 2012 at 3:46 pm | permalink |
Penelope, I still you should consider the possibility that the interaction dynamic between you and the Farmer has an intrinsic tendency to erupt in violence as evidenced by previous events. Not saying it's a reason to not create personal growth, but that a different relationship (or say, living in a collective), might be healthier for your growth in general.
Please, please consider what you are teaching your children when they witness this kind of violence and your defense of it. Think about what it will do to their relationships in the future, and what they will consider to be okay.
Children are not necessarily emotionally healthier off in a series of foster homes than in their original home, but it may be time for you to consider the merits of moving to California. And raising your kids in a collective living environment so they can see all sorts of relationship dynamics and not use yours as the model to build their future relationships on.
Just some unsolicited advice.
Posted by Jade on January 1, 2012 at 3:48 pm | permalink |
Only you know what is best for you. I would be interested in the Farmer's perspective of the events. As you rightly point out, there are two perspectives; only a blend of the two is closest to what really happened. (Not to imply that hitting another person is ok because it's not.)
Posted by JW on January 1, 2012 at 3:48 pm | permalink |
really, you want to know what the farmer thinks? by all means, go to curiousfarmer.com and drop him a line!
good luck to you!
Posted by Diana on January 2, 2012 at 11:00 pm | permalink |
what a strange comment Diana
Posted by Nancy in MN on January 3, 2012 at 11:39 am | permalink |
Almost seems weird to say, but good for you, Penelope. You're right – we have no idea what you did leading up to getting that bruise.
I still think there is no excuse for violence – not ever. I think when people are telling you it's not "your fault" that he beat(s) you, they're right. You could've spit in his face right before he did it, and it's still not your fault. He's the one who hurt you. He didn't have to – he made the (irrational) choice to do so. I don't think the "not your fault" thing is making you a powerless victim – it's saying HE is the one who made that choice to do it.
I hope 2012 brings you and the Farmer closer to having a healthy relationship.
Posted by Lindsay | The Daily Awe on January 1, 2012 at 3:52 pm | permalink |
Good for you. Why is it we can solve everyone else's problems so much better than our own?
Posted by Daryl Martin on January 1, 2012 at 3:53 pm | permalink |
because someone else's problems give us the advantage of being out of the box. then you can see things better. when you're inside the box you're drowning with (at least) emotions! it's so hard.
when i'm arguing with my husband i feel paralyzed with emotion. when we are good we make agreements on how we should argue better and how we should not go to certain places and be mean to each other. but in the heat of the moment i forget. i say things, i can't make good decisions, etc. it's pretty awful. makes me feel like a child. makes me feel so inept!
Posted by karelys on January 2, 2012 at 1:11 pm | permalink |
Here's what I think:
* I think you don't publish a post like your last one unless you want exactly the reaction you're now railing against. What reaction did you THINK you were going to get when you posted a picture of that bruise?
* I think the commenters here are to some extent enabling you, by providing you with the illusion that you have relationships with them (per your comment in your last point about feeling closest to your kids and your blog commenters). I think people who really cared about seeing the abuse stop would stop rewarding you with hundreds of sympathetic comments restating the same thing over and over.
* I think that you have a very twisted idea about what's good for your kids. Driving hours to take them to violin lessons, home-schooling them, and … letting them a witness a relationship that, at a minimum, is giving them a terrible template to model their own on? Because you think that would be preferable to divorce? Ask a therapist about the wisdom of that one.
Posted by A. on January 1, 2012 at 3:53 pm | permalink |
Very well put. I am just catching up on these blogs and I was struck by the contrast from the "I am dying" blog to the "I am staying with the farmer" one. I do think that people can provoke violence, but it does not make it OK in my mind for the other person to use that as an excuse for hitting unless it is in self-defence. I have been in abusive relationships. I got out, but I also have the ability to see right from wrong, which I think is where Penelope has a hard time finding the boundaries. Penelope, I wish you all the best. I wish that you would quit prolonging the drama if you don't intend to do anything about it. Trust me, if the Farmer 'can't stand' you talking to him late into the night, he's not going to 'stand' you any better if you 'fix' yourself.
Posted by CW on January 1, 2012 at 7:02 pm | permalink |
Wholeheartedly agree.
Posted by Sharon on January 2, 2012 at 1:02 pm | permalink |
Girl, in 4 days you went from
1. a pity party post full of DM clichés ("he beats me, but it's my fault")
to a
2. hear-me-out empowerment post full of sophisms (really, where did you see a "collective hatred…for women in violent relationships"?)
Oh, and Btw, victims of real domestic violence don't press charges for many other reasons besides "they are in love".
Please don't trivialize it.
Posted by Angela on January 1, 2012 at 3:53 pm | permalink |
Right.
Ditch the "empowerment sophistry". Stop the analysis. Hitting people is wrong. Stop talking about who, how, why or whatever. Go! Go now!
And I hope you don't see this as an attack on you or other abused women. Abusers can rationalise abuse 20 different ways before breakfast. You just don't have to join them.
Posted by Richmonde on January 1, 2012 at 7:08 pm | permalink |
I agree with you, this is how women get killed! It seems they don't see how dangerous their situation is. They blame, themselves, their past, their spouse etc while the situation deteriorates. Who cares whose fault it is? Get out before either of you end up in jail, or in the morgue!
Posted by Rachel on January 2, 2012 at 5:12 am | permalink |
""It's not your fault" completely limits a woman's choices, because you are saying that she is powerless to control the situation."
Totally agree on that…
And I really hope you didn't interpret my blogpost about you as what you call "hatred and disdain for women who are in violent relationships" and as for Altucher blogpost, I believe there really was good support in it.
Reading your post, I believe even more strongly that violence (domestic just as the one you felt in the comments) has something to do with convenances.
Posted by Paule on January 1, 2012 at 3:56 pm | permalink |
Oh, I want to be clear that James Altucher's post was lovely – I emailed him and thanked him, in fact. The person I'm quoting is someone who commented on James Altucher's blog post. Not James Altucher himself.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 1, 2012 at 4:05 pm | permalink |
Oh, I see. I was just wondering why it wasn't online anymore…
Anyway, good luck with all that…
I said that I agreed with that :
"It's not your fault" completely limits a woman's choices, because you are saying that she is powerless to control the situation."
But I personnaly believe that this is only true if you love yourself enough to make good choices for yourself!!!
Posted by Paule on January 1, 2012 at 4:32 pm | permalink |
I respectfully disagree: saying "it is not your fault" can lead out of the trap of feeling solely responsible for an event where there are at least two parties. I agree that there are provocative actions which can lead to violence – the partner in the altercation is driven so much into a corner that he/she cannot see a way out. So it should say correctly: this might be partially your fault. However, there has to be a way to break the vicious cycle: either both change behavior, or one walk away. Evidence suggests that very few one or two-way abuse relationships end up with a change in behavior. Laying blame solely on one part in the relationship completely paralyzes – it is not a solution. Taking away the blame is liberating and opens the way to more creative solutions.
Posted by redrock on January 1, 2012 at 4:07 pm | permalink |
And one more thing: You have a career where you ask people to look up to you, to take your advice, and to believe that you know what's best for them. At some point you're going to squander the credibility you need in order to make a living doing that. If you're going to transition to a different type of blog, fine, but you really can't be telling other people how to live their lives and careers when yours is so rocky. Where does your credibility come in? (That's a sincere question.)
Posted by A. on January 1, 2012 at 3:57 pm | permalink |
People aren't taking Nel's life advice…the more grounded ones anywho…we are taking her technical advice….far, far different.
Posted by smokytrees on January 1, 2012 at 6:42 pm | permalink |
I think it's fair to say that you don't know the real personal life of anyone who gives you advice professionally.
So you have to just read their advice and decide for yourself if it will work for you — regardless of what their personal life is like. And, I assume you'd do the same for the advice I give.
If it's a prerequisite to approve of someone's life before you listen to their advice then you will probably find yourself listening to no one.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 1, 2012 at 6:48 pm | permalink |
Yes but the tag line of this website is, "Advice at the intersection of work and life," so I think A. has a valid point on this.
Posted by Erica on January 1, 2012 at 11:42 pm | permalink |
That's ok, but then just give the advice you're promising. Don't tell me that you're "dying" but you like it or mention some Farmer. I don't want to know you're f'd up personal life. If you're gonna give some kind of business advice, stick to that, but I guess that's not your only purpose, so I guess this blog isn't for me. Good luck though.
Posted by roro on January 4, 2012 at 12:16 pm | permalink |
it was interesting to me when i read the Jezebel post that women said they'd never take her advice given her personal situation.
it's amazing to me that we can't separate things. I mean, Penelope's advice is how to advance the corporate ladder in America not how to live and how to navigate your romantic relationships.
I remember one time gushing about John Mayer (i loved his early music) and my husband said he hated it. I asked why to which he responded "because he's morally bankrupt, he is seen going in and out of hotels with different women all the time."
I was stunned. I understood his dislike. I can't respect a man like that. But his music was excellent nonetheless. Nothing to do with personal life.
I have applied penelope's career advice. some works some doesn't because i'm not in corporate america.
and of course her personal life will be intertwined because she works from home; which tends to blend things a bit. plus career is such an important part of americans' lives that we can't dismiss the impact that personal lives have in it.
but saying that she should lose credibility for not having everything together in her romantic relationships or even parenting is crazy.
the women doesn't offer advice in that area. she blogs about her problems and how they affect how she deals with career/earning money.
i guess i learned to separate these things when as a kid my dad hurt my feelings bad and then offered advice about something later on. just because he dealt with a situation really bad doesn't mean i'd ignore his insight in another. it was hard but separating those things really helped me through my adolescence when most girls were at the whims of guys.
Posted by karelys on January 2, 2012 at 1:21 pm | permalink |
it's amazing to me that we can't separate things. I mean, Penelope's advice is how to advance the corporate ladder in America not how to live and how to navigate your romantic relationships.
I remember one time gushing about John Mayer (i loved his early music) and my husband said he hated it. I asked why to which he responded "because he's morally bankrupt, he is seen going in and out of hotels with different women all the time."
I was stunned. I understood his dislike. I can't respect a man like that. But his music was excellent nonetheless. Nothing to do with personal life.
I have applied penelope's career advice. some works some doesn't because i'm not in corporate america.
and of course her personal life will be intertwined because she works from home; which tends to blend things a bit. plus career is such an important part of americans' lives that we can't dismiss the impact that personal lives have in it.
but saying that she should lose credibility for not having everything together in her romantic relationships or even parenting is crazy.
the women doesn't offer advice in that area. she blogs about her problems and how they affect how she deals with career/earning money.
i guess i learned to separate these things when as a kid my dad hurt my feelings bad and then offered advice about something later on. just because he dealt with a situation really bad doesn't mean i'd ignore his insight in another. it was hard but separating those things really helped me through my adolescence when most girls were at the whims of guys.
Posted by karelys on January 2, 2012 at 1:29 pm | permalink |
fine – but are your kids safe?
Posted by missyone on January 1, 2012 at 3:59 pm | permalink |
There are things that are instinctively wrong about your arguments. To a certain respect we are not all growing personally. As adults we are the mature being that we are. You are describing a circle that women in domestic violence situation fall into – somehow you believe it might get better.
Maybe Farmer just did this once (?) and he will never do it again. How many beatings would one have to measure to realize the other person is not changing? Is one to two tolerable, maybe, over 30 is excessive? That would be insane.
And how does a person brings this upon herself? You want to take the responsibility, but a person should not abuse the other. We do get into arguments, but how does one create a situation where the other person deserve to hit you!? It can't never be that.
I hope you can find your happiness, as your last postings cry with sadness and sorrows. I am indeed sorry for you and your children to live in such a situation.
I wish you all the best and hope you find the strength to make the right decision.
Posted by Toto on January 1, 2012 at 4:00 pm | permalink |
I was hoping that this post would be you exclaiming your freedom from this terrible life you are living. I was so upset and disturbed from your last post, I felt terrible…now I feel pity. Good luck. I am unsubscribing to your blog. It makes me sick.
Posted by Dbp on January 1, 2012 at 4:01 pm | permalink |
HAAAAAAA!!!!! Nel is living a "terrible life"?? Whu? Huh? Say who?? Unless your Paris Hilton with servants its hard to beat (no pun intended) her life. She lives on a farm, eats whole food, has some stability, has loving children etc. My guess is that she has a better life than most.
You must not have read this post. http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2010/11/30/5-reasons-to-stop-trying-to-be-happy/
5 reasons to stop trying to be happy
Nel has decided to live life for the interesting part, not the fake and very, over exaggerated "happy" life. This would explain her staying with the farmer.
When life wallops you over the head and your rich husband leaves you with nothing, maybe you'll come back. Good luck though.
Posted by smokytrees on January 1, 2012 at 6:53 pm | permalink |
the 'Nel' thing is really f**king irritating.
Posted by Susan on January 1, 2012 at 7:38 pm | permalink |
A is right. This entire blog exists as a tool for you to get the response you desire, perhaps even need, at any given moment. You pretend to have this overarching method/design that makes sense of it all to those who are willing to study your brilliant thoughts closely enough. But come on now, we all know — there is no method. It's just you, your contradictory whims and bottomless need for adulation, pats on the head, admiration, even worship. I suppose we are meant to be too polite to point out that you contradict yourself at every turn. Enough with the politeness. You are full of shit. The empress has no clothes — literally!
Posted by kt on January 1, 2012 at 4:02 pm | permalink |
I couldn't agree more. Full of shit is putting it mildly. Totally f'd up is more like it.
Posted by CD on January 2, 2012 at 7:11 pm | permalink |
Your mom did an awful thing to your dad. You often write about the awful things you do to the farmer. And you know what a mature partner does in response to having awful things done to them? Leaves the person who is doing awful things. They do not hit them. They do not do an awful thing back.
I agree that you need to do a lot of self-work. It is screamingly evident in your blog that the ten years of therapy you've previously referenced having only chipped away at the tip of the iceberg of harm that was done to you and that has shaped you. But you need to do self-work because you need to do self-work, not because it will make the farmer stop hitting you. A person who sees hitting as a reasonable response to bad behavior is someone who needs to do metric tons of self-work themselves.
Mutually abusive situations, which you are clearly in, are not situations one person can fix by themselves. You can start to get yourself better, but the farmer needs to work on himself as well. The only chance your relationship has of not becoming mutually abusive is for both of you to work on yourselves. If you can get yourself into a therapeutic situation that will help facilitate that, great.
I don't think the farmer is terrible. I don't think you are terrible. I think that both of you are pretty clearly carrying around quantities of pain such that you are not able to have healthy romantic relationships right now. You need to do self-work, and so does he.
Posted by sara l. r. on January 1, 2012 at 4:03 pm | permalink |
What Sara said. "responsibility" is the ability to respond. Responsibility is not fault. Responsibility is not blame.
A person who sees the storm coming and chooses violence, instead of shelter, is solely responsible for that choice.
Meanwhile, please make sure that your children do not have access to weapons, including tools that can be used as weapons. If they come to your defense, this could get much worse for everyone.
Posted by Michelle on January 2, 2012 at 7:28 am | permalink |
This. This exactly. You both need time away from the situation. You need time to work on yourselves. And you need to give your kids the chance to grow up into mature, functioning adults who can express themselves without violence.
Posted by Lola on January 4, 2012 at 12:51 pm | permalink |
You're kidding yourself. Nobody was directing hate or rage at victims. But you have now officially chosen victimhood; as Gavin de Becker says, you are now a volunteer. So, no more pity – no more than I pity addicts who keep using, drunks who keep driving, sex addicts who bring STDs home. You have a problem, but you are choosing not to deal with it – choosing to enrich the problem, to let it embed itself more permanently into you and your identity and your life.
You want to wreck your life? Fine. You've been on that path most of your life, and you were first pushed in that direction by people who didn't know better. But you have a choice, now, and you're pushing your kids down that path too. Who will rescue them? They certainly aren't learning to rescue themselves.
I hope the Farmer is prosecuted for DV, and if you threw the first punch, I hope you are as well. Maybe then you'll take it seriously.
Posted by Can't stop watching on January 1, 2012 at 4:04 pm | permalink |
Yes, this. I SO agree.
Sorry Penelope, but this post is purely and simply a rationalisation for your decision to stay. (Combined with a traffic-grabbing headline.)
Although, I can't seem to stop watching either…
Posted by Cathy on January 1, 2012 at 7:27 pm | permalink |
AGREED. What your mother did to your father was wrong. What your father did to your mother was wrong. What you and the Farmer have been doing to each other is wrong. Sadly, you see it as "normal."
Even worse, and what breaks my heart is what your boys now think is "normal."
I think of how scared they must be and how this cycle will continue. Take responsibility for your children and for their emotional health.
Posted by Beth on January 3, 2012 at 4:38 pm | permalink |
Good luck. Hope you aren't wrong.
Posted by Steve C on January 1, 2012 at 4:04 pm | permalink |
Penelope, from one Aspie to another, of course you are doing things that are aggravating, even infuriating, to your husband, and even more so when he is tired. You will probably always be a bit difficult to live with.
Kids with Asperger's are difficult too – do you, for one minute, think that means that people are justified in losing their temper with them? I mean, yes, I guess it's understandable if someone loses their temper, but really, one is EXPECTED to be in control of oneself and control oneself, at least to the point of not hitting or shoving. By the time one reaches adulthood, anyway.
When my ex and I broke up, my then-6-year-old son was relieved. He said, "you and Dad are like fire and water."
What I'm saying is, maybe it's not either one of your faults. Maybe the combination just doesn't mix. Although frankly, I have a hard time imagining that the Farmer won't be a hitter/shover in another relationship, but I don't know him.
So, yeah, insomuch as your behavior is a catalyst for his bad behavior, I suppose you could say it's your fault. BUT, the reality is that you will NEVER be able to be "good enough" to control his bad behavior, and if you TRY, then you will find yourself deep in a co-dependent relationship.
Read the book "Boundaries" by Henry Cloud and John Townsend, and if you've already read it, read it again. You need to be really clear about what you can own and what you can't.
In retrospect, I wish I'd only separated from my ex, because now, 14 years later, we are JUST NOW able to get along a tiny bit better. He is learning, very slowly, what it means to have Asperger's. And I am learning how to deal with him when he starts to get out of control. (I leave.)
Best to you, Penelope. And please remember that although the "it's not your fault" sentiments don't ring true to you, what IS true is that you can't control it.
Posted by Sara Gardner on January 1, 2012 at 4:05 pm | permalink |
There is so much sense in this post.
Posted by C Holz on January 2, 2012 at 4:36 pm | permalink |
The Farmer tries to leave when Penelope is out of control but she won't let him.
Posted by Hazel on January 3, 2012 at 4:06 pm | permalink |
Insightful perspective on a complex and emotional topic. Brave to share. You got a tough skin, sister. Here's to living on the edge of risk and reward. May 2012 bring you only rewards.
Posted by Tracy on January 1, 2012 at 4:05 pm | permalink |
Hi Penelope,
First of all, anyone who thinks it's a no-brainer to leave an abusive relationship needs a few more brains. It's not easy. In fact it's really, really hard.
And no, it's never anything as simple about stupidity, or weakness, or guilt, or shame, or "tradition."
One of the smartest people I read online (we've also met in person) is a semi-anonymous blogger named Holly at The Pervocracy on Blogspot. Among other things Holly's an EMT ambulance and emergency-room worker. Before anyone throws stones at you they might want to read her post Why does she stay with that jerk?
So yeah, zero tolerance, nice on paper but a lot tougher in real life.
That said, I'd just point out this isn't a zero-tolerance situation: you've been in this situation with the farmer before, right? Not even all that long before. So zero tolerance isn't on the table. You've already tolerated it.
Since I'm aware how hard dealing with a domestic abuser is I'm not going to chirp out "and how's that tolerance business been working for you?" I'll just repeat that for you and lots of other people zero tolerance isn't an option.
That said, you do have other options that don't include large bruises and object lessons for your children in how to manage domestic disputes. And since you're another one of the smartest people I know I assume you're aware of them, you're aware of their relative merits and liabilities compared to going back to the farmer, and that you've probably been considering them carefully.
So that's cool.
I'll just do what I did last time and ask what you'd do if this was an untenable career situation and not a domestic one?
The only unfair thing I'll really say (on purpose anyway) is that out of those 500 comments on the last post there are pretty clearly at least ten and really probably a lot more people — ones you know and not just ones who know you — who really, truly care about you the way you're afraid nobody ever will. Your choices aren't farmer plus bruises vs friendless plus a house full of cats.
Take care,
figleaf
Posted by figleaf on January 1, 2012 at 4:06 pm | permalink |
i really like your post.
another thing is that i'm so impressed by how we have zero tolerance for physical abuse but not for emotional abuse.
i mean, i'm recovering from depression. learning to deal with it and stuff. when my husband and i argue there are certain triggers that send me into this crazy downward spiral where i feel like the only relief is suicide.
and he's NEVER laid a hand on me.
seriously!?
is anyone aware that the farmer may have beat her but she knows that it may have been a crazy reaction? maybe penelope can deal with physical bruises but the emotional aspect of the relationship is salvageable.
i know i sound crazy. maybe because i've never written my thoughts on this. not that i think physical abuse is okay at all. i just think it's crazy how people get all up in arms about it but not so much about being emotionally hurt.
i'm really sensitive. sometimes i want to gash my wrists with a kitchen knife because the emotional pain is so much greater than the physical one. And i'm someone with very low pain tolerance.
Posted by karelys on January 2, 2012 at 1:38 pm | permalink |
We all make our own decisions. I am deciding to not follow you any longer and will unsubscribe from further posts. I am not interested in being a voyeur into your dysfunctional life. I enjoyed your blogs for a while, but all good things come to an end. I know when to walk away. Good luck.
Posted by Jan on January 1, 2012 at 4:06 pm | permalink |
I am unsubscribing from the blog as well. The blog was once interesting, but lately it has devolved into drama after drama. It's a shame, because it was worthwhile once.
Good luck, Penelope. I will check back in a year or so from now in the hopes that you have your head back on straight and I can again learn something useful from you.
Posted by Shannon on January 1, 2012 at 4:16 pm | permalink |
Don't be cruel. There is a time and a place for honesty about strategic direction. That time is not when a person is in emotional turmoil.
Penelope gifts us with an honest look at her life experience. We can't ask her to shut off part of that and retain the great advice that comes from operating without a filter.
Again, time and place to give feedback just not on a post like this.
Posted by Don on January 1, 2012 at 7:01 pm | permalink |
regarding don's comment (below) i absolutely agree that her gift is her honesty. i don't care how one sided it is. it helps us learn.
can you imagine if someone let us cut them open while alive so doctors could watch how the body works? but all we have are cadavers. and scans. but it's not the same.
this woman is cutting herself open (regardless of what you think of it) i think it's a gift.
i think of all the great painters, like Van Gogh. Their most impressive paintings came out of utter pain. Many of them committed suicide. In a way I can hardly express this is very similar to me.
I study psychology. Seeing inside someone's mind/heart is a huge gift
Posted by karelys on January 2, 2012 at 1:42 pm | permalink |
The answer is what is right for you isn't right for anyone else and vice versa. But the reality is *most* abused folks don't have all the options you do. And I hate to break your day dream/illusion – but CPS folks don't remove kids with 20 bruises because they have no where for them to go. I understand your logic – but the actions – or lack of – of CPS is hardly a (rational) defense.
BTW – *why* don't you send the buys to live with their dad for a while? Where is he in all of this? You talk abut how growing up in a violent household impacted you AND you have the means to remove your kids from that cycle – so *why* don't you? What is the benefit to THEM of staying there with you?
Posted by Suzanne on January 1, 2012 at 4:08 pm | permalink |
I try to never answer questions on the blog about the boys' father. I like him. We have a very good relationship. Suffice it to say that I have sole custody.
I think what is more interesting in your comment is you saying that I have more options than most women. This is true. I know that. I would be fine financially if I left. I would retain sole custody of the kids, and and I can live anywhere in the world.
But the discussion of domestic violence should include women like me, who have lots of options. There are plenty of women like me in this situation. Not all women are powerless and without options.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 1, 2012 at 4:29 pm | permalink |
Your kids are doomed. I hope they're smart enough to blame their parents instead of themselves.
Posted by Can't stop watching on January 1, 2012 at 4:37 pm | permalink |
I have an MBA and am a female business executive. I support myself very nicely. I was also married to a violent man for 12 years. I thought because I was SO smart I could fix my situation, unlike those "poor dumb unemployed" battered women. Like you are bent on doing now, I tried changing myself, tried counseling, tried romantic vacations, tried to be more submissive, tried to be more…what my husband wanted… I loved my husband. In some ways, I still do love my ex. I came to find out though that I was just like the stereotypical impoverished battered woman, I just drove a nicer car and had an office with a big desk and leather couch. Everything else in the cycle of violence was the same but I didn't believe it for the longest time. You'll have to figure the situation out for yourself, but it is really hard to watch you get hurt and to know what is in store for you, knowing what I know now. As an impartial observer without any emotion for Farmer, I already KNOW you will get hit again. I already know that you can't change yourself enough to make him stop. I wish you were smart enough to know that. Good luck.
Posted by JMDM on January 2, 2012 at 8:17 am | permalink |
So your kids have been exposed, reading between the lines, to two violent men and have an unstable mother. Twenty years from now, when they are incapable of forming healthy relationships, do you think they'll have the clarity to blame their parents – or will they fall into a self-loathing spiral?
Posted by Can't stop watching on January 3, 2012 at 8:50 am | permalink |
I've been waiting to read a piece like this one on domestic violence for a long time. Thank you for escaping the black and white dogma on the issue.
From a long time reader, may the new year bring lots of positive personal responsibility to you and your family.
Posted by F. on January 1, 2012 at 4:09 pm | permalink |
so, can you post more pics of your ass? thanks
Posted by john on January 1, 2012 at 4:09 pm | permalink |
Thumbs up for personal growth and staying with the Farmer!
He may be violent, but I suspect this is only when you are trying to pull his strings.
You should learn to accept his NO-s and think of all the moments that you have been violent to him (non-physically).
I wish you both luck!
Posted by Smile on January 1, 2012 at 4:10 pm | permalink |
I think you are both brilliant and ignorant. You need to work on walking away even when you don't want to (in an argument) & the farmer should do the same. Then you need to leave him alone if ge does the walking away first. I can picture you badgering him or simply pesteribg the hell outta him even when it's exceedingly clear that he wants you to get away from him or he just needs time alone. My mother did the same shit to my stepdad and would badger the F out of him until he snapped. We were quietly glad sometimes when he had to resort to the physical in order to remove her off of him or simply to get her to shut the hell up with her antics. Now, he never actually gave her bruises or drew blood, but things (she) was so crazy & erratic towards all of us that I'd be lying if I said we didn't at times wish he would have knocked the crap out of her. I am an adult now and recognize that violence is wrong but I also realize sometimes the 'victim' is really the provocateur.
Posted by Jess on January 1, 2012 at 4:11 pm | permalink |
We didn't absolve you of your responsibility in the situation. Did you do things to make the Farmer mad? Perhaps – you could be as fully culpable in the situation as he was.
That story actually illustrates a fundamental problem: you seem to think that there can be justification for physical violence. We're telling you that there isn't; there's no such thing as deserving to be beaten. In the story, there was a lot of provocation on your mom's side, but your dad didn't have to hit her. He could have retaliated in a lot of different ways, but he wasn't forced to do so by hitting your mother. And if your mother had left your father, then perhaps you wouldn't have gone through some of the things that you detailed in your post.
If you decide to stay with the Farmer, that is absolutely your decision. It's your life. Don't gamble with the kids, though. One problem with domestic violence is that it does tend to escalate. Put them somewhere unequivocally safe.
Posted by CL on January 1, 2012 at 4:12 pm | permalink |
Thank you for saying what I want to say but am too shocked and disgusted to articulate. A crime has been committed, and now a tragedy is going to unfold. Those poor children…
Posted by Angela on January 1, 2012 at 7:30 pm | permalink |
Oh and by the way, Holly only glancingly mentions it but one of the reasons people don't leave domestic-violence situations is that they believe they're the ones causing it.
If the farmer gave you that bruise because he was just trying to keep you from harming him, yourself, or others that's one thing. But…
I'll just repeat that you're living in a domestic violence situation, one that, sure, maybe, you're contributing to. But that just means it's even less fair to you and him if the violence escalates to a point where one of you ends up in the hospital or worse and the other one ends up in jail.
figleaf
Posted by figleaf on January 1, 2012 at 4:14 pm | permalink |
my zero tolerance is for high and mighty people. offering another perspective is cool when asked but that's about it.
Posted by lisa richmon on January 1, 2012 at 4:15 pm | permalink |
I think it's your life, and you choose to share it via your blog. I think people can click "close" or "exit" when they don't like what you have to say. Keep on keeping on… you have people who support you.
Posted by Swim Bike Mom on January 1, 2012 at 4:16 pm | permalink |
Exactly. I also don't see why some have to make a big pronouncement about unsubscribing to the blog. Why are people reading this anyways? They will provided they agree with everything Penelope says or does?
Posted by Helen on January 2, 2012 at 10:48 am | permalink |
What Helen said!!
Exactly!
Who gives a crap if you (not you P) unsub from reading a blog?
Posted by Gala on January 2, 2012 at 5:19 pm | permalink |
Totally astounding stuff here.
For nine years, after my divorce, I lived with a woman who took to abusing me: punching me in the face and later breaking down the bathroom door while I was using the can. It was the second incident that convinced me I was in the presence of a disordered person who did not love me and who I'd cease to love. In any case it did not matter. Violence begins hatred and resentment, and I didn't not want to resent her, just get her to stop abusing me. So I moved out at no small expense of myself. I'm not happy now but I'm a damnsight happier than I would have been counting her fingermarks in my face. Again…nobody should have to put up with that crap. What will The Farmer have to do to get you to safety?–fire a gun at you?
Posted by Ken Wolman on January 1, 2012 at 4:16 pm | permalink |
or maybe the farmer is all beat up as well and has all kinds of bruises. worse than hers…
Posted by karelys on January 2, 2012 at 1:45 pm | permalink |
I'm sorry Penelope, I know this goes against everything in your blog post, but it is NOT YOUR FAULT if your husband hits you. I know you disagree adamantly, but it's true. It's a great idea to work on yourself, but you can't change other people if they don't want to change. I'm sorry, but no matter what you did before the incident, you did not deserve physical violence, you really didn't.
Posted by Nikki O on January 1, 2012 at 4:17 pm | permalink |
I perceive some good thinking in your post.
So, my dear, what was YOUR part in what lead to the bruise.
What are YOU going to do about YOUR part.
How exactly are you going to make this change? Do you have baby steps leading you from where you are now and your current behavior to this change you intend to make in YOUR behavior.
It seems to me, from reading your blog that, perhaps, a first step might be looking at and considering your verbal behavior.
Maybe you might want to look at female friends to talk to so that you are not so desperate for conversation from the FARMER when he is tired and not particularly open to hearing and thinking about what you have to say.
Perhaps during quiet periods, if any, you might arrange a signal for the FARMER to use when HE is up to conversing.
Perhaps also a signal from him when he needs to stop listening or being talked at. Could YOU actually RESPECT such a signal?
Perhaps it will take him time to learn to give the signal soon enough that he is not furious and wanting to attack you. Could you be patient while he learns his own limits and not blame him for taking time to become self aware on this need for change?
Does he care enough about you to try to learn his own limits?
Do you care enough about him to learn to gentle and make fewer demands concerning verbal behavior? Do you care enough about him to restrain your demands for instant gratification concerning being listened to by HIM?
Perhaps, "You never talk to me!!!" is not the best approach.
Maybe making dates for conversation and sticking to them, might be an approach.
Perhaps writing him letters, since writing works so well for you, might release some of your intensity.
Perhaps asking him for suggestions about what would help him release his anger in a less terrible manner when he is overwhelmed by your talking.
I have read the comments, too.
You have had numerous offers of phone support from commenters. I will add mine to those offers, though I am not sure that I, who have done phone support for numerous friends, could put up with your harsh, blaming words for as long as you might need me to. I can put up with some.
Writing seems to be something that works for you. There must be some way you can use writing to improve YOUR side of the equation.
I imagine that, "Shut up, you mean mouthed, energy sucker." from him would not work for what you want. Maybe you can come up with something you can hear and respond to.
Melissa used to say "Stop talking!" to you. Could the FARMER say, "Stop talking!" and have you hear it?
What exactly and specifically are YOU considering for your part of the equation?
When I read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0385338341/?tag=brazecaree-20
from the library, you came to mind. I don't know if it would do anything for you. I read self help books and books about communication a lot, having been raised by werewolves, myself.
I highly recommend, Suzette Haden Elgin's books about the Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense. I have read them, loaned them, gone to a seminar on them.
I have a lot more to say. I think I will stop here and find out if you are truly going to work on your part of the equation.
Reading your blog certainly does bring up many things to think about.
Posted by Evy MacPhee on January 1, 2012 at 4:19 pm | permalink |
And is the farmer staying with you? As I commented in the prior blog, I like the Farmer. From what you write about him, I gather that he prefers calm and quiet, or at least a certain amount of control mixed in with the noise. I also like you, and the odd chaos that naturally accompanies you. Can you two peacefully coexist? Neither of you seem to work well in each others' environment. I'm glad you're staying but I hope that means you each will be more flexible with each other. Peace to you both (and the boys) in 2012.
Posted by Lauren Milligan on January 1, 2012 at 4:20 pm | permalink |
No one has the right to shame you for staying or for leaving. it is your choice. I hope your changes and personal growth improve your situation, but please do not blame yourself if that is not enough. Taking responsibility for the outcome instead of only your own actions will just get you stuck. Best wishes for a safe and happy 2012 to you and your family.
Posted by Peg on January 1, 2012 at 4:22 pm | permalink |
I still don't think country living is for you but that is just my opinion.
Posted by Roberta on January 1, 2012 at 4:22 pm | permalink |
Great post. Now you just have to make it happen.
Posted by Anhelo on January 1, 2012 at 4:23 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
Is there any situation in which you would leave the farmer?
Posted by Anonymous on January 1, 2012 at 4:24 pm | permalink |
I get the take ownership rationale, but you don't have to stay under th same roof while you attempt to work it out. Be safe.
Posted by Dave The Volleyball Mgr on January 1, 2012 at 4:24 pm | permalink |
I like what you had to say about domestic violence. I have never been in your place but I do believe people can change and that there are ways to provoke people to violence. I never think violence is okay. (Your wallpaper story was an excellent example.)
Have you read How We Love, yet? I think this book would give you incredible insight into why you react the way you do and why the Farmer reacts to you. And what to do about it. The focus is forward after considering your past. The authors also do personal counseling.
Sometimes just being aware can change people. I know that has been the case for me.
I also think some parents get divorced thinking that the kids will be happier. I don't think this happens very much. And as adults the pain is still there.
Praying for you,
Jana
Posted by Jana on January 1, 2012 at 4:26 pm | permalink |
I'm routing for you, Penelope. Always have. And for you and the the Farmer. Always have. And btw, I have domestic violence credentials: I created the first How-to Legal Handbook for Battered Women back in the mid-seventies when no one was talking about that stuff. Awesome post! Love ya.
Posted by AnnieBee on January 1, 2012 at 4:26 pm | permalink |
Choose your battles in the future. Not everything is worth arguing about. Then learn the rules of fair fighting and follow them. Then forgive and have great make-up sex.
Posted by Joellen on January 1, 2012 at 4:26 pm | permalink |
I like what you had to say about domestic violence. I have never been in your place but I do believe people can change and that there are ways to provoke people to violence.
I never think violence is okay. (Your wallpaper story was an excellent example.)
Have you read How We Love, yet? I think this book would give you incredible insight into why you react the way you do and why the Farmer reacts to you. And what to do about it. The focus is forward after considering your past. The authors also do personal counseling.
Sometimes just being aware can change people. I know that has been the case for me.
I also think some parents get divorced thinking that the kids will be happier. I don't think this happens very much. And as adults the pain is still there.
Praying for you and your man,
Jana
Posted by Jana on January 1, 2012 at 4:27 pm | permalink |
so, what about the multiple times the farmer asked P to leave the house? It is nearly impossible for him to leave since it would mean giving up his livelihood.
Posted by redrock on January 1, 2012 at 4:27 pm | permalink |
My story is very much like yours, P. I lived with the violence. After a particularly bad incident that left me in the hospital, I had the same thinkings as this post. He only hits me when I pull his strings…so I guess I don't need to pull them anymore.
The difference is that I left. I left because I couldn't live without pulling them. We were perpetually doing things to destroy each other. Bothering each other was just what we did. And we stayed together for the kids, and everyone was miserable. After the divorce and a ton of therapy (both separate and couples), we have a good relationship for the sake of our children. We are both remarried in healthy relationships. Our kids are doing better in every way.
Taking personal responsibility can come in many forms. I believe 100% that if I remarried my children's father we would have the exact same problems we had before. We just didn't work well. Some relationships can't be saved.
Posted by Rosalie on January 1, 2012 at 4:28 pm | permalink |
this is incredibly insightful! thank you!
Posted by karelys on January 2, 2012 at 1:47 pm | permalink |
Yes, exactly this. Some relationships just can't be saved. And you're just delaying the inevitable. The problem is the potential. The relationship has potential to be a great thing. But it won't. Don't be a potential-holic.
At first I thought this post was about the last time you experienced violence. I hadn't read the most recent bedpost bruise post. The only work I've seen that does not suggest leaving and not contact is by Kim and Steve Cooper out of Australia http://www.narcissismcured.com/. Obviously this is about narcissism, but within that context is verbal, physical and spousal sexual abuse.
Part of the problem is the definition of violence. It is not okay to throw paint, it is not okay to spit in one's face and it is not okay to hit the bedpost. It is all violent. Violence is in everyday conversation.
This situation feels similar, except for the money. Some folks can't leave and look for anyway out that doesn't involve shelters and long waits for pro bono lawyers or none at all.
I get staying. But I am ready to leave and want you to do it first so I can read about it.
Posted by Phoebe on January 4, 2012 at 8:34 pm | permalink |
Any decision you make is one I support because it is what you feel is right for you at the time. So long as your kids are actually safe and their emotional health is being tended to, do whatever floats your boat. I've worked with victims and perpetrators of domestic violence, and also as a child protection worker, and the reality is that the cops and CPS aren't going to do anything about what's going on in your home.
I also want to encourage you to consider DBT therapy for your borderline personality disorder tendencies. I've also worked with people with co-occurring Asperger's borderline personality disorder/tendencies, and I'm confident that DBT therapy will give you some tools to get your behavior under control.
Many people who experience sustained abuse and neglect as children develop Reactive Attachment Disorder, which when left untreated can transforms into Borderline Personality Disorder, or traits thereof, in adolescence and adulthood. Marriage therapy deals with a small piece of the puzzle, and you're well aware that you have big puzzle to work on. DBT is training and tool-provision for the pieces you can control more than anything…maybe look into it?
Posted by M on January 1, 2012 at 4:29 pm | permalink |
Edit: "with co-occurring Asperger's *and*borderline personality disorder/tendencies…"
Posted by M on January 1, 2012 at 4:31 pm | permalink |
While I understand all the reasons for staying in a violent relationship – the ones that women give for staying, anyway, it is a proven fact that very few of these relationships change.
There are thousands of women who have argued, albeit not as publicly, why they stay and how things can change, but for most of them it didn't change.
If the relationship is violent, for whatever reasons, it is obviously unhealthy and toxic and for both the people's sakes, it should probably be ended.
Good luck…
Posted by Dorothy @ Singular Insanity on January 1, 2012 at 4:30 pm | permalink |
My response to your logic is this:
The risk of family violence cannot in any way be compared to the risk involved in starting a business. If a business fails is there a chance you will lose your life? Be thrown in prison? Not the same risk in my mind as what can result if either party in a marriage cannot control their behaviors which can end in violence.
If I were the Farmer in a relationship with someone like you and I realized I could not control my responses to YOUR behavior I would not feel it appropriate or safe to stay in that relationship. You and the farmer could well be on a collision course with a very bad ending. Neither one of you may have the least intention of doing serious harm in your responses to each other but all it takes is one accidental wrong response that goes just the slightest bit to far and everyone's world will never be the same again. Either one of you is risking either being thrown in jail or hurting each other irrevocably or hurting the kids (if even accidentally).
What i will agre to tho is that it is certainly your choice to throw caution to the wind and allow the chips to fall where they may.
At the very least you should both be apart while you both work on this. I certainly hope there is no such thing as manslaughter in your families future.
All the best
Posted by Bryan on January 1, 2012 at 4:31 pm | permalink |
I've been following your blog for awhile and all I can say is "Damn".
I know things get better. I know that some things are situational. I know how it feels to be on the other side of the table.
There are no absolutes, there is no, "Not Even Once," in the real world.
You may be wrong, you may be right and this blog is a beautiful view of the laboratory of life.
Posted by DWH on January 1, 2012 at 4:32 pm | permalink |
I completely agree with you. People are responsible for their own choices. I do believe there is a difference between being an abused "beaten" victim in a desperate situation and being in a volatile relationship that has the tendency to erupt into violence. In the former their is clearly an aggresor and and a victim and in the latter their are two responsible parties.
People react based upon their own experiences..I am lucky to have grown up with two loving parents who molded me into an independant, strong woman, who would not tolerate being in a dysfunctional relationship, to me being with someone who makes me become aggresive or reacts to me in a way physical way is simply crazy and would send me running for the hills on day 1.
However your "norm" is so different that it is ridiculous for me (or anyone else) to sit in judgement of you… You are clearly an intellegent, successful woman who is not living with a man who beats her when dinner is not on the table at 5:00.
I truly wish you the best of luck and I do think it is possible to change the dynamic of your relationship, although it will be a tremendous amount of work. My two cents – leave if you are unhappy, stay if you believe you can BOTH work on the hostility you bring out in each other.
Posted by Melissa on January 1, 2012 at 4:35 pm | permalink |
"Yes. It's true. Women don't like to press charges. Because they love the guy."
That undoubtedly is true, but not the entire reason.
I asked Google why women should stay in violent relationships. These three websites with statistics explain why many commenters, who know of your life only through your blog, are skeptical.
1. From Psychology Today, an evolutionary view:
"When pressed, however, many respond by saying "Because I love him"; emotional attachment to the abuser is one of the primary reasons battered women give for why they choose to stay. "
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200804/why-do-some-battered-women-stay
2. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics,
"On average, only 70% of nonfatal partner violence is reported to law enforcement. Of those not reporting, 41% of male and 27% of female victims (34% average) stated
victimization being a private/personal matter as reason for not reporting, 15% of women feared reprisal, 12% of all victims wished to protect the offender, and 6% of all victims believed police would do nothing.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.) referenced via http://www.evefoundation.org/domestic-violence-statistics/
3. From "Domestic Violence: An Overview" by C. J. Newton, MA, Learning Specialist and published in the Find Counseling.com (formerly TherapistFinder.net) Mental Health Journal in February, 2001.
"Women very reasonably … fear retaliation and … economic upheaval. … Many times…they rationalize the abuse…" http://www.findcounseling.com/journal/domestic-violence/spouse-abuse.html
You are good at research. Find the statistics to prove the doubters wrong.
Posted by Betsy on January 1, 2012 at 4:36 pm | permalink |
It may be a world of high risk, but I wouldn't make the same bets and risks on my children as I would on a company. Plus, he isn't the father of your children nor are you the one being physically abusive. Therefore, you should contemplate leaving if it continues to happen. I hope your situation changes and that you have an action plan on how to improve yourself.
Posted by AR on January 1, 2012 at 4:42 pm | permalink |
Here's what I related to in the story about your mom: I used to act in ways my partner didn't like. Because he couldn't MAKE me stop, he would hold me down, sit on me, choke me, whatever he could to try to "restrain" me.
Yes, I did immature and asinine things when I got mad at him BECAUSE I was out of control and, short of beating him – which I don't believe in – there was no outlet. I couldn't have physically abused him if I'd wanted to; I wasn't strong enough! The moral of the story is: your mom was the one with the mark on her face in the end, wasn't she? Because HE put his hands on HER.
What you learn as a woman is that, no matter how strong you think you are, a man can overpower you. Once he puts that intimidation dynamic into play, it doesn't go away.
I guess the analogy would be a child who throws a temper tantrum and starts destroying things. If the parent beats the sh*t out of the child to make it stop, I'm not sure child services is gonna say, "well the child obviously deserved it." The child doesn't have the physical stature to make it an even fight. And neither does a woman.
My fear is that you're going to waste as many years as I did thinking that if you just change yourself, he will respond in kind. My suspicion is that it's easier for him to blame the crazy psycho b*tch, rather than examine how his behaviors cause the escalation.
I don't hold anything against a woman who stays … how could I when I did it myself? We all believe we'll NEVER tolerate that sort of treatment. Until it's us.
Posted by downfromtheledge on January 1, 2012 at 4:48 pm | permalink |
Penelope: You're a tough one to figure out. You claim your mother provoked your father's anger, thus had no reason to leave him. They eventually turned their violence on you–understandable because surely you provoked them. Now you're frustrating the Farmer to violence, just like your mom did your dad. Because you're (at least) half at fault, you want to stay and work on your problems. Like your mom? Hmmmm. Kinda sounds like the classic cycle of violence to me. Think your kids' blogs 15 years might sound similar? Not judging you here, but you do seem to be at the only one who can change yourself, your current dynamic of family violence, and the statistical odds of perpetuating this violence (most disconcertingly in your children). To not do so after posting your many blogs on family violence seems somewhat irresponsible. Just saying…
Posted by doodles on January 1, 2012 at 4:49 pm | permalink |
Not tough to figure out at all, really. P is subconsciously recreating her childhood in order to try to heal it. She's placed herself (metaphysically and subconsciously) in this situation, and later relationships, if she chooses to leave, to try and redo them.
In fact, people find others, like magnets, that will help them work out their issues. She, like all of us, will be attracted only to someone at the same level of dysfunction.
So, you can look at it that the farmer is just as screwed up in his own way as P is. What happened before the farmer got to the point of shoving P we don't know, as P points out. They are both playing out the dance of their childhood.
What's hopeful is that P is willing to look at her part in it and perhaps begin the long road to recovery. Is the farmer making the same commitment? Much can be done if they are both committed to growth and healing. If only one is, sometimes the only way is to leave.
Posted by Kathy on January 2, 2012 at 3:18 pm | permalink |
hello there P – this is perplexing … it takes courage to go as it does to stay … I left so my bias shows … real responsibility is choosing the response you give to any stimuli or situation so I do get that. I worry for the babes – I had zero babes during my mentally abusive and manipulative relationship/marriage so that makes it different … I hope you are not settling for second best … the comparison between your career risks and your risks here seem trite … to me they are worlds apart for a host of reasons. When all is said and done I have faith in you – go forward and conquer – best le
Posted by le@third on January 1, 2012 at 4:54 pm | permalink |
I think there is some confusion here about the difference between domestic violence and relationships that contains violence. Domestic violence is a pattern of behavior that is about one partner having control over another. Violence is often used as a means to control. If there is no element of control going on with your relationship here, it is not domestic violence. We know very specific characteristics about domestic violence i.e. it will escalate and can lead to homicide, the abuser will NOT change, it is not the survivor's fault, etc. Those facts are valid and true in the context of domestic violence. They are not necessarily true in the context of a fucked up relationship that CONTAINS violence.
Posted by Anne on January 1, 2012 at 4:54 pm | permalink |
anne,
BEST COMMENT YET!!!
Posted by smokytrees on January 1, 2012 at 9:19 pm | permalink |
I agree. This is a great comment. Thanks, Anne. I don't think it occurred to me that this is a way we can talk about a relationship. But it seems right because it's a useful distinction.
Also, this seems in line with our couple's therapist (who specializes in violence) who said that while the relationship absolutely should not continue like this, it is not an emergency.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 2, 2012 at 7:05 am | permalink |
Love is supposed to be affirming and strengthening and supportive and enhancing, not so hard. Have you considered that you have not yet found your soul mate? So maybe go look? You might not be able to find him when you're with the wrong person.
Posted by Rr on January 5, 2012 at 12:16 am | permalink |
Just because it isn't an emergency doesn't mean it is somehow okay.
My experience with other abused friends is that you can never tell a person to leave. So I won't tell you to leave. Your therapist probably won't either.
But I will tell you, again and again, that it is not okay for him to hit you. Not okay. Not ever. No matter what you say. Even if you break lamps over your head and climb on tractors.
Posted by Ismone on January 5, 2012 at 1:50 pm | permalink |
Anne,
I think this comment is thus far the most accurate description of P's relationship with the Farmer. P's description of the Farmer does not make him seem like a true abuser at all. And P's description of her own behavior does seem extremely provocative to a guy who tries like crazy but finally lashes out after he feels trapped into a corner with no way out.
Having said that, there are a few things for us all to keep in mind.
1. Other than self defense (including the defense of others), violence is wrong. The one committing violence does have a choice.
It's a total pain that they live far enough away that it makes the Farmer going to a hotel for the night more difficult. Perhaps they could set up a locked space in the barn where he can escape, even if she's pounding on the door.
Whatever it is, the Farmer needs to figure out how to keep from hitting P when she uses her verbal prowess to pummel him. It's quite likely he feels emasculated when he cannot match her in her choice of weapons, and then his boundaries are not respected, and when he finally loses control and hits her. To him, abusing her is likely a sign of loss of power, not a calculated tool to use as a way of relating with P to gain power.
2. P does not deserve abuse, any more than a woman deserves to be raped, no matter how provocatively she dresses or behaves.
That does not absolve P of responsibility to work on her part in the relationship that creates conditions in which the abuse occurs. It appears that she deliberately provokes him extensively until he finally cracks. Out of love for him, she will change her part of the equation.
3. Some screwed up relationships that contain violence (which is always wrong) are worth saving.
Only P and the Farmer can decide if theirs is one of them.
Posted by Sarah on January 2, 2012 at 11:55 am | permalink |
wow what an incredible comment! this really aligns my perspective and helps me organize my thoughts. I probably make no sense in my prior comments because i didn't have the distinction between domestic violence and relationships that contain violence.
wow, thanks Anne!
Posted by karelys on January 2, 2012 at 1:50 pm | permalink |
I am glad that distinction is helpful. Domestic Violence is really means a very specific thing. If you are having problems in your relationship (one of those problems being physical violence) and you want to stay in the relationship and work on it, that is totally your choice and I wish you well. I enjoy reading your blog and I think you give great career advice. But a women who is experiencing domestic violence (physical, verbal, or otherwise) needs to be encouraged to contact her local dv program for support and some safety planning, because her situation is different and she may be in danger. The power and control wheel is the most widely used tool for explaining dv, and a quick google search will turn one up.
Posted by Anne on January 2, 2012 at 2:54 pm | permalink |
You are so wrong. Violence is Violence, if its domestic, it occurred in the home, but thats just a more politically correct way to refer to wife beating. The farmer is a wife beater. Lets call it what it is. doesnt matter whose fault you think it might be, or who started it, or whatever, that man is a WIFE BEATER.
Now, Pen, you are all into doing your research, right? Look into wife beaters. what are the stats, for them, for you, for those kids? and you are telling me you will play the odds for your personal growth??? are fucking kidding me????
Your particular intersection of work and life really sucks!
And one more thing, I do feel like an enabler just reading your blog now…. good luck, girl. you are gunna need it..
Posted by Diana on January 2, 2012 at 11:22 pm | permalink |
We are harsh on people that choose to stay in violent relationships and yet we're forgiving of the obese eating themselves to death. It really is the same thing; self-control. Your relationship with someone or something is your responsibility. People drink or shop or eat in unhealthy ways that negatively impact their quality of life. When someone with a dieting blog admits to cheating on their diet they don't get 500+ comments telling them they suck for cheating and are making an unhealthy choice. When someone has a heart attack from 40+ years of eating poorly we don't tell them they brought it on themselves. We are sympathetic and supportive. We acknowledge how difficult it is to eat well and exercise when there is crappy food, desk jobs and entertainment everywhere.
A lot more people die from being overweight than from being hit. Domestic violence is seen as something we can easily walk away from so we tell the woman 'obviously, you need to leave. Just walk away, it is easy'. Do we tell the overweight 'lose weight, it is easy. Just stop eating so much'? Weight loss is a billion dollar industry and yet the solution is free and obvious. It just takes self-control.
I think what you're working on is your self-control. Good luck with it.
Posted by Katy on January 1, 2012 at 5:01 pm | permalink |
Weight is much more a matter of genetics than of lifestyle choices. Weight is much less a factor in life expectancy than, for example, general physical fitness (which can happily coexist with obesity in the same person). Can we please have this discussion without fat-shaming when this has really nothing to do with the matter?
Posted by gospozha_swanson on January 9, 2012 at 5:41 am | permalink |
Rationalize much…?
Posted by Dave on January 1, 2012 at 5:05 pm | permalink |
Just make sure you are staying because you want to be there, not because you don't want to leave.
Posted by Teresa Potter on January 1, 2012 at 5:07 pm | permalink |
I think you misunderstand. People don't lay down moral absolutes because they think this stuff is easy. They lay them down because they KNOW it's hard and sometimes when you're confused it is really helpful to have a firm rule to follow.
I disagree with your decision, but I'm definitely learning a few things about domestic violence by watching this unfold. I suspect your readers are benefiting from this drama a lot more than your family is.
Posted by Erin McJ on January 1, 2012 at 5:10 pm | permalink |
The 2 posts on this subject are incredibly manipulative. I can see how you can drive someone to the end of their rope. Your parting shot to readers who deride the Farmer is so typical of the pattern here: now you have an enemy and can defend your abuser.
If you want to stay w/the Farmer and get beat up that's up to you. But rationalizing it to your large audience is incredibly irresponsible.
Posted by lou on January 1, 2012 at 5:11 pm | permalink |
As a person with an abuse history one of the skills I needed to learn was when something feels off, and even though I might not have the words or the logic to describe why – to trust it.
Penelope – this whole thing feels really, really off. The near pornographic exposure of your body and its wounding, followed by your holier-than-thou and completely selective interpretation of your posters' responses – those YOU provoked btw, and another clue to something being seriously messed up here. And surprise, also very like the provocation you seem to offer the Farmer.
The thing I find the most distressing is that your children have no such capacity to sense that something is off nor any ability to filter it, get away from it, or choose something else. They believe they are experiencing what is true and real, and because of their ages, what is true and real about them.
I want to stay to know how things turn out, but something is really off and I know enough to take that as my signal to leave. May you all stay safe, heart, body and soul, especially your dear ones.
Posted by Jordan on January 1, 2012 at 9:40 pm | permalink |
I agree with your sentiments. And who took the photo? You couldn't have done it yourself from that angle. Was it your friend Melissa? And why was the bruise in the lower left quadrant and not the center? We didn't need to see much of what the photo contained in order to see the bruise. It felt, and still feels, sensational & inappropriate.
Not everyone made a comment condemning women in violent relationships. Many comments were supportive of you and many were moderate. Your post in response to everyone was not so moderate.
I get the sense that you feel you are above taking anyone's advice or questioning yourself and your motives. If you truly have Aspergers why are you not more open to the idea that your perception of what is going on in your relationship is flawed?
Are you the only person who can/should provide coaching or assessment?
Posted by C Holz on January 2, 2012 at 4:53 pm | permalink |
Whatever you decide to do, I hope it leads you and your family to a better, healthier place. I still think you are a survivor and a phoenix.
Maybe some of these 30 suggested things to do for yourself will prove useful in 2012:
http://www.marcandangel.com/2011/12/18/30-things-to-start-doing-for-yourself/
Take care and know there are many, many people rooting for you and here to help if/when you need us.
Posted by lhamo on January 1, 2012 at 5:13 pm | permalink |
I don't really buy into the self-empowerment rhetoric taken to such extremes: it's a form of solipsism. That said, I also think it's worth giving your marriage with the farmer a chance, if only so there are more pig sale events in the future of your sons.
Posted by Olivier on January 1, 2012 at 5:18 pm | permalink |
Your bruise showed up in some one elses blog and caused me to sign up for this one and I am glad I did. I agree with you. Many people are in abusive relationships because that is what they want. That is what they know. They would not know what to do in a plain vanilla tame mutually respectful relationship. Like in politics every person is passionate about the candidate they authorize to lead them whether that candidate is good for them or not. If you can handle the life you chose and don't impose the cosequences of your choices on the rest of us. Who am I to judge you?
Posted by joe on January 1, 2012 at 5:25 pm | permalink |
The opposite of "tame vanilla relationship" is "sane, safe, consensual relationship somewhere on the kinky/BDSM spectrum", not "abusive relationship". Please don't confound the two.
Posted by gospozha_swanson on January 9, 2012 at 5:43 am | permalink |
I've been following your blog for a while and I have to say that the recent turn of events completely blew my mind. Your post today reminds me of my own history. As an 18 year old, I moved into a home with a guy 10 years my senior…. a recipe for disaster. The night I moved in, he threw a jealous fit over his perception that I was hitting on his friend at a party. Within a month, he was punching holes in walls, breaking glasses and then he stuck his foot in my stereo. I attacked him to prevent him from destroying my computer, which looked like it was about to be his next target. Ultimately, I marked him and not the other way around. Campus security entered our apartment and beat the shit out of him while I called the cops, fearing for his life. Then the campus police ran out of the apartment and left me in there with him. He kicked me out while he called his therapist. I had somewhere else to go if I wanted. We weren't married and I wasn't financially dependent on him. But in the month and a half of hell that I experienced with him, I didn't feel that I could leave. I felt that I had to stick it out, to try to make it better. I didn't get better, it got more violent. He took my presence as a sign that his outbursts would be tolerated. I tolerated them. I think my attention and presence even encouraged him.
I'm not telling this story to convince you that you should leave as I ultimately did, but to explain that having been in a violent situation, I went against my own idea that I would never tolerate domestic abuse. I was one of those women who said, "I will never put up with a violent man! I'll just leave." Well, I didn't leave until things got really out of hand. I didn't think it would get that bad.
A year later, I had a conversation with a mutual friend about the fight we had the night I moved in. What happened was this: after he broke the second glass, I rushed across the room, threw him down on the bed, sat on his chest with my hands around his throat and, emulating a scene from some TV drama said, "If you ever fucking do that again, I'll fucking kill you." Well, our mutual friend told me, "Seth told me that was the night when he knew he was truly in love with you."
Fucked up huh? My violent response made him feel love. His response, to behave violently and childishly every time he felt jealous or slighted. We each perceive actions and words differently. No situation is the same.
I guess I just worry about how much you blame yourself for this situation. Taking responsibility for your part is paramount. Giving yourself choices is key. But I do think women can unfairly blame themselves for abusive situations and stay in them because they don't believe they deserve anything better. When you come from an abusive childhood, the chances are even higher. I can't tell you what to do. I just want for you to keep producing good work and raise happy children who are loved and cared for.
Posted by Ruby on January 1, 2012 at 5:25 pm | permalink |
one problem with your plan: one person cannot single-handedly stop the violence in a relationship between two people. one person can make a difference, change the dynamic, but stopping the physical violence in a relationship? that's not a one-person fix.
Posted by jenniferly on January 1, 2012 at 5:27 pm | permalink |
So I guess you're going tolerate it long enough for him to either cripple or kill you or until the boys think it's okay to beat up on any women in their lives, right?
Sounds like a winning solution to me.
Posted by awiz8 on January 1, 2012 at 5:30 pm | permalink |
I volunteer for a domestic violence non-profit. I help to support their website and I see the search terms, traffic, etc. I have to say that if you really believe that DV is sometimes justified, don't write about it. Your blog does very well in search and has lots of links. Shame on you that some woman in need may be looking for help online and imagine if she found this post. If you really think your situation is OK, delete the post so you don't harm others with bad information. DV is never ok, it rarely gets better, and it is certainly not about love or passion, it is about power. I used to respect your blog, now I think you are just shameful. Live in your own myth, don't spread them.
Posted by Becca on January 1, 2012 at 5:32 pm | permalink |
It seems that you haven't heard the thing that helps you leave. For my sister, it was "You're welcome to stay with us if you want to leave."
I know your parents are no refuge. That fucking sucks. I hope you have siblings or friends reading this. It would be ideal for them to offer you refuge right now.
If that doesn't happen, know that people close to you will gladly take you in.
If you're not comfortable asking, there are places to keep yourself and your children safe:
http://www.abuseintervention.org/help-services.html#safeHouse
It's crazy that people think any woman in this situation is fair game for their scathing Internet critiques. For shame.
Posted by a gal on January 1, 2012 at 5:34 pm | permalink |
The way I remember it, Oprah's show was founded on copying Phil Donahue only with more racy topics – only years later did she turn to "self improvement" Oprah.
As for the bulk of your post – good luck. I don't agree but it's your life. I wish you all the best.
Posted by Dave on January 1, 2012 at 5:35 pm | permalink |
Dear Penelope,
So far, you've had many intelligent comments for this post. I agree with most of them and trying to add ideas that will truly benefit you is difficult. But I'll try, because I know you're reading all of this, and that you are reaching out.
My first thoughts about your public disrobing, physically and mentally, goes to the farmer. He knows his personal life is being published world wide along with yours, and yet he accepts it. He had to. When you both married, he signed on for this kind of exposure. And you're still doing it, so there must be an agreement of some sort.
Still, giving up privacy at this level is a huge sacrifice, so the trade-off must be huge to compensate for the public scrutiny. This tells me the farmer has as much invested in your marriage as you do, because although he has asked you to leave his bed in the past, you're still with him. And according to your posts, he's not demanding that you leave now. So there must be something incredibly strong holding you two together. You call it "love." But what does that mean?
You say you love him. What kind of love is it? Is it a giving love, or a needing love? There is always going to be "need" in love, but if you're staying in a relationship to fill a deep vacuum or gain validation, you will never feel fulfilled.
You know that, don't you. You also understand your needs, and you know the limitations of what the farmer can give to you. At this point, you have weighed what you need against what you get and you have decided, at least for now, you'll settle for what he CAN give you.
But you're not really accepting that, are you? You need more communication. You're starved for deeper touching of souls. Will he eventually give you that the way your want it? Will he? Because that's what you are waiting for now. The touching of hearts the way YOU want it.
So, is the way he's giving it enough? And is it given freely? Because if what you want and need is NOT given freely, even if the farmer is reluctantly going through the motions, there is no generous love in your life. Only tolerance.
So I ask you again, is that enough for you?
We're not talking about who's right and wrong, only about a productive and enriching relationship. If it doesn't do that for either of you, is that all you'll accept for yourself?
Going by your own advice, if you consider a marriage something like a job, or any other opportunity, the only limitations on finding a better one, are the ones you put on yourself.
Are you afraid you won't find a better man? Or a better marriage? I have no conclusions. I'm just asking. Because leaving your marriage doesn't necessarily mean leaving the farmer. It means finding another place to call "home" with a husband who better matches your needs. The farmer can still be your friend. It's not all or nothing. It's about redefining and reshaping what you have now.
But to do that, you must totally believe can, even if it means leaving the farmer. You must BELIEVE you can find another mate, just like you believe you can find another job.
So the questions I leave you with are:
Is what you call love an exchange of giving, or a means to support your needs?
If your love is about need, do you believe you can fulfill your needs someplace else?
If not, WHY?
Fondly,
Irv
Posted by Irving Podolsky on January 1, 2012 at 5:35 pm | permalink |
Where can I hit unsubscribe?
Posted by Annemarie Donnelly on January 1, 2012 at 5:40 pm | permalink |
So the deal you have accepted is the Farmer will not "beat you up" if you don't keep him up late talking to you.
A beating for talking sounds just like abusive parenting.
I live next door to Domestic Violence, and have watched two children shrivel and regress in the shadow of their parents violent outbursts.
Denial and rationalization is all I can think of about you post.
Posted by Pamela on January 1, 2012 at 5:41 pm | permalink |
What strikes me in this post is your perception that your father had no choice in his response to your mother. He could have left the room. He could have left her. He could have left the wallpaper and the floors that way and let her deal with it. He could have joined in with trashing the room.
Sure you need to stop, but if he doesn't, it's still on him. He should have you leave his house if you are blocking his exits.
I think it is very sad, the dynamics you have been describing, for both of you. I still don't think you are an exceptional case in this. But it would be nice to be wrong.
Posted by Shandra on January 1, 2012 at 5:45 pm | permalink |
Well, that was just one example, to make a point. But read this post.
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/07/21/how-to-decide-how-much-to-tell-about-yourself-on-your-blog/
As a whole, my dad's actions were, I'm pretty sure, way beyond a discussion about people taking personal responsibility.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 2, 2012 at 7:13 am | permalink |
P, I've been reading your recent posts and didn't feel the right to comment since my experiences in life are completely different. I became a successful entrepreneur while being married to a non-violent husband, and don't need career or life advice from you, but I enjoy very much reading your blog, especially when you are not talking about being physically hurt.
Now I feel I should add my perspective agreeing with Anne when she said there is a clear difference between domestic violence and situations like yours, in which frustration with each others escalate to violence. I, being a non-violent woman, would likely react exactly like the Farmers does to your excessive insistence in talking when I was not up to conversation, because to me it sounds just like he is simply trying to get away from you when you won't.let.go no matter how many times he asks you to stop.
So, I only have a question for you: are you willing to stop the cycle of emotional to physical abuse when your partner asks for some quiet time? I hope the answer is yes for the sake of your kids mostly.
Posted by AB on January 3, 2012 at 7:34 am | permalink |
I remembered that post. I was trying to work within your example. I think when we are talking about people's choices around escalation or de-escalation my point remains.
Posted by Shandra on January 3, 2012 at 10:35 am | permalink |
There are so many people in this world that should not have had children and you are one of them. How dare you bring them into this world to have to bare the weight of your dysfunction?!
People call those who choose not to have kids, âselfish'–ridiculous in logic as well as in many other respects because who IS really selfish are the likes of you.
This has turned into an absurd situation for your readers and I can't imagine that you haven't considered the fallout from this latest postingâthe attention you're vying for will be more bad than good. Is it perhaps a âswan song' in a departure from your current persona to make way for a reinvention of yourselfâa more educated version of Snooki?
Posted by HOW SAD on January 1, 2012 at 5:52 pm | permalink |
Sigh… your situation is tiring to read about. I followed your blog because your perspective was truly unique and motivating.
This crap lately is everything but.
This year, I evacuated from my life due to a natural disaster. I gave up a high paying job, left a man behind who wouldn't come with me, left all my possessions, and spent months living out of a tiny suitcase on friends and family's guest bedrooms. I faced a horrific situation, I did not blink, I did not freeze, I recognized that the situation was unfixable by me and that it was not my responsibility to stay and pretend I could do something to fix the situation.
I want to read posts from the old Penelope. Your current perspective is destructive and I've had enough destruction, death, and loss this year.
I can't read your blog anymore. You aren't empowering or motivational anymore. Stick a fork in you… you are done and yesterday's stuff.
Goodbye.
Posted by Marianne on January 1, 2012 at 5:58 pm | permalink |
"Your situation is tiring…" WELCOME TO LIFE MARRY POPPINS!! You went through a natural disaster and didn't blink…Well good for you, that's real swell.
Your life has nothing to do with her life and her decisions. So her blog has moved from great heights down a few notches…And?? That's life, last time I checked…sometimes your flush and sometimes your bust is pretty much how it goes… We all can't be Barbara Bush's like you.
Were you sexually and physically abused horribly? Doubt it! Maybe cut the gal a break huh?!
read this…ur the Jehovah Witness in the story….Leaving her blog is so not surprising because well….your just plain boring would be my guess.
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2010/11/30/5-reasons-to-stop-trying-to-be-happy/
Posted by smokytrees on January 1, 2012 at 7:18 pm | permalink |
I might be a boring person, but I took care of my boring backside this year, despite all the hardships. I rather like my boring unbruised backside.
And you know the article you linked too? That's exactly the type of post that Penelope no longer writes. Now it's crap about being hit. Pictures of bruises and her backside. You perfectly proved my point about this blog's declining relevance. In my annus horribilis, there is nothing I can gain from her publicly dealing with problems not my own.
She wants to stay and fix the problem. She has a load of personal baggage. I want Penelope and the Farmer to have a happy relationship. From the tone and trajectory as of late, the relationship and Penelope are over and done. It's sad, but there is nothing I can do about it.
Your anger on her behalf will not really do anything for her either.
Posted by Marianne on January 1, 2012 at 9:41 pm | permalink |
No no no. The community does not have hatred and disdain for women in bad relationships. What the community disdains is anybody (woman or man) trying to feed us bogus stuff. This is why Anthony Weiner, Wall Street, Penn State's Administration could be in a dead heat for the d-bag of 2011 award. They treat us like we are stupid. You are galvanized to stay based on a misinterpretation the community's response as hate/disdain. This is you digging into a position based on something not real, because you want to dig in, which is because your fear is stronger than your brain just now.
So over a period of years you've assembled not stupid readers and you feel we hate you right now. What we actually hate is you trying to sell us piss poor logic, which is what people of any gender, when in bad situations and when they have a choice, employ to justify staying. And we also hate fear. Not you, but your fear. It is so powerful, and we know you to be ballsy and effective, and we hate seeing people getting shellacked by their own fear. We don't like self made losers, self made winners sell the books.
Your flawed reasoning (rooted in a flawed upbringing) just makes us nuts. Your logic is terribly weak throughout this post and we are going to keep on calling your BS because, well for my part I owe it to you since your blog has provided me the service of calling me on my own, and clarifying my values. We also call your BS because we know you are not stupid, and we want your service to us to continue, but we can't trust you anymore if you continue to fail to do the painful work of self awareness that you must rise to the challenge and do here. Go back and read your own post about how Gen X is going to bring transparency to the workplace. That post is about not lying to yourself.
In this post, rather than shining some sun inward, you say we are all lying to ourselves and you can prove it because of how we *really* behave when it comes to people losing their kids or not. You reason that CPS executes our standards, which is just complete nonsense. Of course CPS doesn't set the standard. Kids âa truly disenfranchised groupâ are the primary stakeholders of CPS. CPS fails children every day, just like they failed you. In a better world our CPS workers would have the benefit of reasoning out whether it is better to leave a kid/take a kid. They would take so many kids in a better world. CPS is making resource-based calls. They don't have the option to take the kid, there is nowhere to put the kid, no resources. They reserve the spots for the absolute worst cases. You became that worst case when you were a kid, and that is how you can trust that it really was that awful. CPS doesn't have budget to always do the right thing. That means they are not your authority on what is acceptable or not. Don't hide behind a government service as standard-bearer. They didn't protect you then, but you can protect you now.
The people working in CPS have burn out and turn over. The burnout doesn't come from helping kids, it comes from NOT helping kids.
A CPS anecdote in a Dear Sugar column: http://therumpus.net/2010/07/dear-sugar-the-rumpus-advice-column-44-how-you-get-unstuck/
Look: values drive decisions. When values are clear decisions are clear. This is strategy 101. Nobody is saying anything about easy. But your complicated situation has indeed become very simple, to us. Do you share our values? If you do, you have to move out of that house you just decorated. If you don't, we can't read your column in the same way anymore, you don't speak from a shared set of basic values. A four year old knows it is not ok to hit.
You would never invest your money in a 50/50 partnership where the fights b/w the partners get physical. Bad bet. Please get out of there so your brain has some room to bathe in something other than stress chemicals.
Posted by JB on January 1, 2012 at 6:10 pm | permalink |
I found myself nodding affirmatively as I read. I like your comment.
To the people who wonder why "we" are involved with Penelope, or why "we" would have any advice or reaction: Isn't that what the blog is about? If Penelope didn't want any comments, input, advice, or reaction, why would she post this blog? Also, come on, she clearly drew us in to an emotional situation; it's only human to feel emotions then.
Posted by Pen on January 1, 2012 at 6:44 pm | permalink |
This has to be the most sane, logical thing I've read concerning this whole debacle that has unfolded over the last few days. You have succinctly put to words everything I just felt after reading this last blog update. You wrapped it all up for me in a way that I can now leave my whole participation in this behind me. Thank you!!
Posted by Erin on January 1, 2012 at 10:07 pm | permalink |
Yes. Absolutely.
The thing making me crazy is that she has two very young children in the balance, and their other biological parent isn't/can't be stepping in.
Adults have the right to make appalling decisions for themselves. Decent people try not to make appalling decisions for others. When those others are your tiny children? People run back into burning buildings to save their kids. Penelope can't even stick to her "one month in a hotel for space" for the sake of her kids.
Posted by Can't stop watching on January 1, 2012 at 11:14 pm | permalink |
Dear PT – you continue to open doors. Thanks – S
Posted by Sandy on January 1, 2012 at 6:23 pm | permalink |
Penelope, violence was your "normal" growing up. That is why you do not feel it is urgent that you leave him. I was never treated that way. I was taught that "normal" gets its definition for more than what we grew up with. "Normal" for humans is to let anger, jealousy, rage, selfishness, etc. to control our thoughts and actions. That is also the sinful nature. This is why Cain killed Abel. It is why there is so much violence in our world. Now I know you know where I'm going with this. The opposite is love and love is patient, kind, never boastful or proud, never haughty, selfish or rude. Love does not demand its own way. It is not irritable or touchy. It is never glad about injustice, but rejoices when truth wins out. Now, I am sure you are all thinking "that sounds impossible." I think you need to ask yourself if the Farmer is willing to work with a therapist to get to some semblance of that. It is the kind of love none of us can achieve w/o God's help. I know I don't half the time. But it is the ideal or the goal.
I hope you know there are readers of yours who do love you and hope you will be safe and ok. I do.
Posted by Libby McCullough on January 1, 2012 at 6:28 pm | permalink |
Hi,
It makes me sad to see so many people who think that they know how to run your life.
All the best to you and the Farmer.
Cheers.
Posted by Matthew on January 1, 2012 at 6:28 pm | permalink |
What else is someone looking for when they post this to a very public blog?
Posted by Perplexed on January 1, 2012 at 7:04 pm | permalink |
i don't know…maybe just share and talk and gain more insight? just because i share with a friend my problems and hear her advice doesn't mean i'll do everything 100%
Posted by karelys on January 2, 2012 at 1:58 pm | permalink |
This is just crazy. Full stop. I refuse to participate. Unsubscribe.
Posted by Mm on January 1, 2012 at 6:29 pm | permalink |
What can I say? You have the gift of objectivity in a horrible situation. That takes a lot of work however allowing the farmer to do this more than once creates habits that never die. I don't agree to leave after the first time. Establishing boundaries and limits which can save you/farmer/kids MUST to be done early in the violence phase. Your past doesn't have to be your kids future so best of luck. Do the hard work and expect the best from the farmer and yourself. You both deserve better than your current situation.
Posted by amy@camhproject on January 1, 2012 at 6:31 pm | permalink |
sorry, Amy, but IMHO, this is about as far from objective as can be. Sure, Pen, THINKS she's being objective…that's part of the problem.
Posted by Cathy on January 1, 2012 at 7:42 pm | permalink |
Opinions are like belly buttons…
Everyone has one, not everyone likes them and they are usually full of fluff or old personal dirt.
A world without violence would be great! But we are animals who have complex emotions and reactions. You need to understand
Posted by Andrew Walker on January 1, 2012 at 6:43 pm | permalink |
I used to put my belly button lint in peoples coffee if I didn't like them. I realized it was wrong and I stopped doing it. I think I'm a better person today for turning away from such behavior.
Posted by fred doe on January 2, 2012 at 3:33 pm | permalink |
I agree, zero tolerance is a wrong-headed approach. However, from what you have shown us here, staying where you are does not appear to be good for anyone. Perhaps you are leaving stuff out. But you can't fault us for incorrect assessments given faulty data.
Posted by Lisa on January 1, 2012 at 6:44 pm | permalink |
@ Lisa
I agree, Zero tolerance does not apply when both are abusers-physical or emotional.
Zero tolerance is for healthy adults who find themselves in a victim/abuser situation.
Real life example: a boyfriend yelling and slappng you because dinner was too salty.
Posted by Dee on January 1, 2012 at 8:24 pm | permalink |
The intelligence level of your readers is such that no one would imagine it's "easy" to get out of your situation. But it is painful to read how a disagreement between you escalates to violence (more than once) and then after an outpouring of support read that you're sticking with the relationship.
It is not that we all blame the farmer unfairly. It is not that we need you to now defend him and make us understand that you are difficult to live with. I've read most of your blog, and that was the first thing that ran through my mind after the last post – "I wonder what happened up to the point of violence?". That does not mean that you are to blame for the incident either. It means you are two people who each made poor choices, got aggressive, and it culminated in him getting physical. Perhaps you got physical with him as well – you may not have given us all the facts.
The point is THAT DOESN'T MATTER.
What matters is that regardless of the reasons, the farmer hit you. You two somehow escalate a disagreement to the point of violence. And then you get physically hurt. This is a damaged relationship where at least one of you cannot make the right decision to walk away before it gets violent. You should not be in a relationship with any person that escalates in that way.
If it were your kids being frustrating, demanding, yelling screaming and chasing the farmer down until he lost his cool and then HIT THEM, could it ever be OK? You could say that the kids drove him to frustration, but he still would be responsible for the act of violence. It would never be OK.
Another consideration –
Don't consider blame, but think of what the dynamic between you and the farmer does for all of you:
1)Physical violence to you
2)You both teach the kids by example to treat women without respect, and that violence is tolerated.
3)The farmer and you both become more accustomed to accepting violence in your relationship. You become desensitized, and it changes both of you.
4)If there is guilt for the violence, there is anguish and stress because of the cycle you experience. You both live in emotional pain/fear.
I don't think any of us see it as black and white, or who's right and wrong. More that by staying, you are setting yourself, the kids and the farmer up for further stress and pain. You can love someone, and love the best parts of that relationship, but when you are consistently causing each other pain (and teaching that to the children), you are not a good match. That is why you do what is healthiest for all of you, and not go back to that dysfunction.
I wish you good luck with this. I am sure it is so very, very hard to start over. But it sounds like you two have already tried working through things, and it has gotten worse.
Posted by Lisa on January 1, 2012 at 6:56 pm | permalink |
Good comment by Lisa. And her items 1-4? That's exactly what happened to Penelope's parents. And Penelope, look at Lisa's #2, your parents taught you that it is ok for a man to treat you without respect, and that violence is tolerated. And that's what your kids are learning in their formative years.
You may think your kids don't know these fights are happening, but a man who hits you doesn't talk to you with respect, either, if he talks to you at all in front of them. You are not in a good relationship to model to these children, better you're in none at all.
Posted by JB on January 1, 2012 at 7:06 pm | permalink |
As a parent, when my 8 year old comes to me saying "he hit me" or "she called me a name" I have learned to ask, And what came before?
But he is 8. Grownups should have better impulse control. And whether you are withholding info about you because you're mad at the Farmer, or whatever, does not matter.
Here's what does: your kids are learning that it's ok not to get past 8 years old and getting so mad that hitting is the only thing you can think to do.
That is not ok. Your life is yours but you are not doing them any favors, even though you think you are. He has many wonderful things to teach them, but that will only reinforce that maybe this is OK. And if their wife is the one who is beaten, they are the ones who will go to jail. Not to exaggerate but this is not an unreasonable way that this ends.
I had a rule with boyfriends (for cheating, not hitting; I would have had zero tolerance for that but that's just me): once is a mistake. Twice is a pattern.
I know you love those boys. And I know this isn't a pattern anyone wants their kids to learn: "it's ok to hurt someone you love when you are mad" is not, in fact, a true statement.
Wishing you a better 2012.
Posted by KellyGreen on January 1, 2012 at 10:03 pm | permalink |
Where did you read that the Farmer hit Penelope?
Posted by Hazel on January 3, 2012 at 6:42 pm | permalink |
@ Hazel,
I guess we are splitting hairs. I would equate shoving someone hard into a bedpost, leaving a bruise as violent (though I phrased that as hitting). In the past, Penelope has also written about the following episodes:
"The odds are that I would be with a man who treats me like my dad did, right? So it should not surprise you that the Farmer pushed me so hard that I fell on the floor. In front of my six-year-old son."
"Two nights ago, I got really scared. He had already pushed me and shoved me and grabbed me and crushed my foot in a door."
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/09/27/this-is-me-battling-impostor-syndrome/
Are you asking because you thought you missed something in this post, or is it that you think this kind of violence is not as severe as "hitting"?
Posted by Lisa on January 4, 2012 at 7:19 pm | permalink |
I asked because to me pushing and shoving are different from hitting. Since many commenters have written that the Farmer hit Penelope, I wondered if I missed something.
It may be splitting hairs, but I think if the Farmer had punched Penelope in the face it would have been a somewhat different situation.
Posted by Hazel on January 4, 2012 at 7:52 pm | permalink |
Okay, I love these blogs they are very entertaining. I stop what I'm doing everytime your name appears in my inbox. I am actually responding from my phone… I agree that the "leave him" posts got a little angry.
I like that you believe in individual responsibility but most ppl who do are inactive intellects that often fail at completing the tasks they are responsible for. You are neurotic and that's okay, just find an outlet for the moment when you feel like your brain is about to explode. Find a close friend to say all the things you shouldn't to. Get out everything that u want to tell the farmer that he is tired of hearing to he friend, have a nice cocktail and keep it moving.
Reading your past blogs we both know you won't leave, and reading between the lines I can tell he won't either. I even think he is willing to try, but you are the problem.
So leave or stay, but get to happy for Penelope!
Posted by Tia on January 1, 2012 at 6:56 pm | permalink |
You are good at rationalizing. You continue this pattern and your daughter will one day be subjected to this same thing. I assume your advice will be, "stay put."
A child without a parent is much different than a grown adult subjecting themselves and family to an individual who is abusive. Kids being taken into Foster Care is not even comparable. If a child has a bruise perhaps the parent that spanked then might change. If the child was sexually abused, they are better in foster care OR WITH A RELATIVE. However, the bad thing is you are subjecting your kids to this against their better interest.
Actually, that fact you and your beau both are aggressive isn't an excuse. If you acted first, that doesn't matter. You should modify your behavior and environment for you to get better as well as for him to get better.
If he hits your child, what will you do? Rationalize that your dad did it to you so it is okay.
Posted by Anonymous on January 1, 2012 at 6:57 pm | permalink |
Wow.
Posted by Deanna on January 1, 2012 at 6:58 pm | permalink |
Translation â "I'm a freak to live with, so he gets to hit me."
I'm sure that message will help battered women everywhere.
So, the point of posting your picture was . . . ?
A desperate cry for help? [apparently not]
A need to validate your actions?
A threat to the farmer?
Link bait?
I'm sure the blog will gain in popularity. Let's all watch the "self-proclaimed career guru spiral out of control with her life" reality show.
I know I'm glued to my computer screen.
Posted by Perplexed on January 1, 2012 at 7:02 pm | permalink |
Both of these people — Penelope and 'the farmer' — have PTSD.
That means that both of them have hair-trigger anger. The smallest, slightest thing can make one (and then both) of them furiously angry. Screaming, etc.
And the reason this happens, the PHYSIOLOGICAL reason not the 'psychology of it, is because when someone is upset or alarmed, their body pumps out adrenaline.
And then, in normal cirumstances, things calm down and the distressing emergency goes away, and eventually the body breaks down the adrenaline.
But in PTSD, this 'jump' of adrenaline has happened so often, over and over, that their bodies have become depleted of what it takes to break down the adrenaline.
That means that the farmer and Penelope, and all the soldiers coming home from combat — all of them need more of whatever it takes to break down (catablize) adrenaline.
And all the psychologists and psychiatrists in North America put together don't seem to be able to figure that out. No wonder their 'marriage counseling' hasn't worked. It's an effort to fix a biochemistry problem with talking; guaranteed to fail.
Posted by ssj on January 3, 2012 at 5:15 am | permalink |
Some know of help for this:
http://www.homecoming4veterans.org/
Posted by Zellie on January 3, 2012 at 6:39 am | permalink |
Zellie's right, and she makes a terrific comparison which sheds light on your situation. Penelope, neurofeedback is definitely worth researching for yourself. Email me if you want a published academic article looking at the existing scientific literature 4 years ago on the effectiveness of neurofeedback. It seems it can really help with conditions like PTSD (and would you believe high- or low-functioning autism??!! yes, that too!!!). Many clinical psychologists whom I respect no longer conduct individual therapy if the patient won't agree to neurofeedback as well — because brain function is really the issue, and because talk therapy can only address in years of therapy what neurofeedback can help with in months. Combining them is the Cadillac of treatment these days. Look at the EEG Institute website (which is the sponsor of the treatment for vets that Zellie sent you to) for more info. But don't just go to a hole-in-the-wall provider of neurofeedback: look for one who's also certified in traditional therapeutic techniques, so that you know you're getting someone responsible. A clinical neuropsychologist who provides the treatment would be ideal, and there are now many of those around (consensus about the efficacy of this treatment has grown since the scientific article 4 years ago I can send you). This is something you can do to change yourself for the better, regardless of what the Farmer does — and if the Farmer will sign up for treatment too, so much the better. Email me for more if you want…
Posted by csts on January 3, 2012 at 3:11 pm | permalink |
There are many, many cases of PTSD related violent reactions being brought under control by cognitive therapy and lots of hard work by the people suffering from the disorder. Suggesting otherwise is objectively wrong.
Posted by LJM on January 5, 2012 at 12:39 pm | permalink |
Penelope, you are doing a good job in parenting, in your entrepreneurial pursuits, in your writing, in your personal assessments, and in your marriage. Only you know what is best for you and your children. I hope that the Farmer will work with you, and with himself, to also make the changes that will de-escalate the need for physical confrontation. Blessings to all of you.
Posted by Rev. Carol Crawford Rowe on January 1, 2012 at 7:10 pm | permalink |
Challenges come to point us in the direction of change. Penelope, I am really sorry for what you go through and I wish you continued courage and strength and renewed hope everyday! May this new year herald many positive changes. I hope you are talking to the children about this though and shielding them from seeing what they needn't. Take very good care of yourself, and I trly wish peace and love between you and your hubby. Fingers crossed Penelope. It has been sad seeing the photo you posted. Hope you are healing well. I know you will make the best decisions that feel right, and make an attempt to correct what needs correction. I agree fully about taking personal responsibility. Love and blessings to you and family. Happy 2012 Penelope! With prayers – xoxo
Posted by H. on January 1, 2012 at 7:11 pm | permalink |
You conveniently omitted the many comments offering you wonderful, sound, non bias advice. This post's is desperately trying to convince us, while you still sound unsure yourself.
Posted by Ryan on January 1, 2012 at 7:13 pm | permalink |
I like to think that the great thing about my blog is that I'm unsure about myself all the time. That's why I write a blog. So we can all figure things out together. And I have a feeling that the people who feel like they have everything pulled together nice and tidy do not even read this blog.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 2, 2012 at 7:07 am | permalink |
Those same people also live a thoughtless life lacking introspection. Seems kinda bland to me.
Posted by Kusandra on January 2, 2012 at 9:39 am | permalink |
I agree with the person that said most of the responses to your "I think I'm Dying" post were thoughtful and supportive. The fact that you decided to react to the small percentage that showed "intolerance" is indicative of the unhealthy rationalization that paved the way for your "return to the Farmer(Abuser)".
What you are saying now is that it is o.k. under certain circumstances for domestic partners to be physically violent to one another. Or at least in your case you consider it to be ok. I haven't read anything from you indicating you have been physically abusive to him but maybe you think you are emotionally abusive or psychologically abusive and therefore he is justified in pushing, shoving, slapping, throwing, knifing, or shooting you.
Hopefully, you will see how sick this way of thinking is before you, your kids, or the abuser is dead. If your kids were sucking on a crack pipe would you say, "hey, we are all just trying to find our way through this whacky world, together. I don't have all the answers and who's to say that in this case the crack isn't better for my child than life without crack? It's ok to suck on a crack pipe. People who advocate zero tolerance towards kids sucking on crack pipes are so intolerant."?
My guess the sane part of Penelope would want to remove the crack pipe from her child and get the kid into a safe environment where he/she could learn to live happily without the crack rather than rationalize why it's the best thing in this circumstance to go back to the pipe.
You are a sick puppy, Penelope, but a sick puppy doesn't deserve to be kicked. Well, maybe your case is different.
Posted by Chuck on January 3, 2012 at 1:11 pm | permalink |
I'm afraid I'm going too and without all the fanfare at my blog like when I announced my big crush after I first found yours. I was loud and proud telling everyone in my blog world how much I enjoyed what you had to say even if it was a bit different. You've shifted into places now that I can't follow and I don't want to watch. More importantly, I don't trust you anymore so all advice, business or otherwise, feels false. These last two posts make me feel used for bothering to be concerned. Good luck to you.
Posted by Elizabeth Harper on January 1, 2012 at 7:15 pm | permalink |
WoW!!!!! So if Penelope makes you money but has a rocky relationship…that makes sense to jump ship??? HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Good example. My ex-wife is an executive of one of the top 5 yellow page books in the country. I hired a customer of hers, obviously this client paid money to be in the yellow-pages for an add. His company comes over and does a piss-poor job of asphalting the driveway, getting some on the garage door, the sidewalk, landscaped rocks, etc. I call the company and complain. He sends his crew back out to fix it, again they half ass the clean-up part.
Yay well, the owner got an earful and I mean an earful.
What brilliant move does the owner decide to do to get us back I guess?? HE PULLS ALL HIS ADDS FROM THE BOOK!!!! Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
Just because I ripped his ass into 12.5 pieces. So his pride made him pull his addS from the top yellow-page book in our area OBVIOUSLY MEANING HE LOST A TON OF MONEY!!!! A TON!!! HE WAS FIRST POSITION IN THE BOOK!!!
That doesn't make 1 bit of sense!!!
Just like you!! Nel has gems, mountains of gems scattered in her blog that will help you out financially but your gonna throw that away for not agreeing in a few areas??? GOOD LUCK!!!
Great common sense tool you've got going on.
Posted by smokytrees on January 1, 2012 at 7:38 pm | permalink |
ohhh…you thought it's all about the money…
Posted by Crystal on January 3, 2012 at 12:08 am | permalink |
Penelope,
I think you are one of the most self-aware people out there, and applaud you for your response to the zero tolerance preachers. I love the example you gave about your mother and father–not that it was touching and heartwarming–but it beautifully illustrated your point about what can lead up to certain events (and how some people may never know, understand, care about, etc. those details when they have a zero tolerance mentality). Thank you for sharing your life with me and the other readers. I for one, truly appreciate your honesty.
Posted by Stephanie on January 1, 2012 at 7:16 pm | permalink |
P has now established the criteria for when a husband can punch his wife in the face.
How helpful.
Zero Tolerance be damned!
Posted by Perplexed on January 1, 2012 at 7:19 pm | permalink |
Well said, Perplexed. PT's post is a textbook case of why people stay with their abusers. It's bizarre that this should be in the context of being a life coach.
Posted by Helen on February 8, 2012 at 10:16 pm | permalink |
How can this latest incident even BE about Zero Tolerance, since there have already been violent incidents before this.
Wouldn't this have to be the first one in order for the Zero Tolerance/Non-Zero Tolerance debate to apply?
Posted by Pen on January 1, 2012 at 8:08 pm | permalink |
the other problem with completely ditching the zero-tolerance is as a consequence in the case of domestic abuse the one who is abused physically (most frequently the woman) has now to prove that she (he) did not trigger the violent response. It will go then like this :" he hit me because the dinner was not ready. entirely my fault, I should have prepared it in time", indeed clearly her(his) fault now he(she) has the right to hit because of provocation? Most of us would not classify this as emotional abuse, but where is the limit?
Sure every case is different, and physical abuse can be the reaction to emotional abuse. But can emotional abuse justify physical abuse? Not in my opinion. If a cycle of emotional-physical abuse has been started everything possible should be done to break it within a reasonable timeframe. Very often that can only be achieved by one partner leaving.
Posted by redrock on January 1, 2012 at 7:28 pm | permalink |
Hi Penelope,
There are some really good books on the market that will help you understand your situation. "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft is one of the best I've ever read on the subject. Good luck to you.
Posted by Christine on January 1, 2012 at 7:28 pm | permalink |
I'm sure some of the people who posted had been in violent relationships or grew up in a violent household.
As per your kids, yes it's good to have a father: the kids had one before then farmer. My mom who thought it was horrible growing up without a dad in the 50s was humiliating. she thought it was better we live with an ego maniac who controlled the house, hit my mom on occasion, threatened her physically. As a teen I begged her to leave. It took until one night my dad hit her three times over slicing a sandwich diagonal nit cross wise when he was drunk. my mom picked up a loaded 357 magnum rifle and said, If younhit me again, I will pull e trigger." I remembered it all happened so fast, and I laid in my bed, shaking, hands over my ears thinking, "omg, my one half sane parent is going to jail!"
I could count the times my dad hit my mom on 1 hand,,,but they have left along memory that pretty much made me tell all men I dated in my 20/, "hit me once, and I'm gone." So at 27 when a boyfriend who was manic spit on me, and I shoved him,,,,he thought chasing me with a 2×4 made sense. I told him….you will go to jail if you swing that board". Luckily, thank god..he didn't. That was the last day I saw him. I walked out and never saw him again.
Point being…sometimes 1 more time is too much. no unhealthy day to day relationship is good for anyone, period. I also feel, if a guy hits you…and you do nothing, you are teaching him he can do it again.
Lastly, I should say I love your blog. i think slot of people sew genuinely concerned who commented. and I thinku need to take responsibility that u opened the blog that day with a nakid aka very vulnerable way displaying your bruise. You opened a door and of course people commented.
So yea. Things have gotten bad. I still don't tolerate violence. If u need check yourself..then do..but the farmer has two kegs. He could have walked out of the room unless u were were hanging off his body like a monkey. he could have went for a drive. he could have taken a walk. he could have gotten away from you. he chose not to.
I'm not hanging him, but I'm not buying either that your situation is safe emotionally or otherwise.
Best of luck to you, the farmer, and the kids.
Posted by Lynny on January 1, 2012 at 7:31 pm | permalink |
Just reread my reply. Typo city. God bless iPads with auto correct. Sorry folks who waded through the mess.
Posted by Lynny on January 1, 2012 at 7:51 pm | permalink |
Oh sure, ruin my vision of the farmer walking around on two kegs
Posted by Pen on January 1, 2012 at 8:12 pm | permalink |
I think this is a really good comment.
Posted by afb1221 on January 2, 2012 at 9:50 pm | permalink |
Very well said.
Victime blaming is wrong. You (Penelope) were/are a victim. Violence toward those who depend on you should NEVER be tolerated, but either should victum blaming. It's a very complicated dynamic.
Many victims don't leave, because they are afraid for their lives or those of their children or pets. Some don't leave, because they don't realize what is really happening. My boyfriend was a victim of DV. He did not realize what had happened to him until two years after he had left his abusive wife.
I have been lucky, in the past, to see the pattern before it manifested and end the relationship before it got to that point. Who knows where I'd be if I hadn't!
Posted by Jen M. on January 5, 2012 at 1:41 pm | permalink |
Penelope does not want to be a victim. She believes in personal responsibility.
And, she went to a hotel with her kids.
Posted by ma pla on January 5, 2012 at 2:24 pm | permalink |
I think you're right, tolerance is excellent. In your dad's case, your mother went first, smashing up his stuff and then kicking him before he did any violence (he held her still but didn't attack her). She attacked first. She could have stopped him from hitting her by not kicking him.
From statistics I've seen, most domestic physical violence is bidirectional. There is a substantial minority who don't have it bidirectionally, about 2/10, and in those cases I think it is good to leave. If you're not hitting them and they're hitting you, their violence is probably innate.
There's also the situation where the man says he is leaving you because he is extremely angry and wants to cool down and the woman follows him and either continues to berate him or attacks him, as you did.
This is an entirely predictable move. Men leave when they want to avoid a fight, women see that as an insult rather than a concession and attack. Knowing male psychology, you could avoid this.
From what I know of you, you have crap people skills, suck at understanding men, a slightly abusive husband, and suck at being needy.
I agree with you that self reliance is good, and given your rather stupid behaviour with your husband there are several easy ways to stop it. To any who say "violence is never justified" true, but there are circumstances that commonly lead to violence that you can avoid.
Get an emotional codeword with him that either of you can say when it gets bad. When you're emotional you're stupid and do stupid things. I personally use the codeword twilight. I find it penetrates the fog and stops either of us saying stupid stuff. He views you as crazy, and should be willing to go along.
Guys also like rules and fair contracts, so you can both set down rules about what you should do when you say it and when you should say it.
Learn male psychology. Men are from mars, women are from venus the book helps. The concept of the man cave from the book has helped a lot of women to understand the male tendency to abandon you or ignore you.
Women like to talk to recharge their mental batteries, men like to retreat and stop thinking about their problems to recharge. Both hate it when the other tries to apply their problem solving method.
If you understand that men need time alone your loneliness may be less needy. You won't talk to him continually leading to him being stressed.
If you understand he's in his cave you can also make some moves to be there with him- compliment his manliness, flirt with him, listen to him explain manly things like pigs (The Farmer says, "What do you think of the pigs?"
I tell him that does not count as conversation.
If he's not talking about things you're interested in, he doesn't get to talk. Bad strategy, taking from him and leaving nothing on the table).
If you're talking about things he cares about like how manly he is for knowing so much about pigs he won't find your presence stressful, and will likely be willing to talk about his emotional issues in return for you, even though talking about emotional issues only hurts most guys and never solves them.
Surely from your business times you must know that? When in a negotiation if you offer them emotional pleasure they are much more likely to give you a favourable deal.
Focus on winning arguments, not on getting emotional satisfaction. Do role reversal, try and work out what he's thinking. Consider what scenarios are likely to play out well in his mind, consider what you're offering in a negotiation- see the one where he was on drugs say, you offered him insults to his manhood and age if he stayed with you, an unattractive offer.
If you had instead said "You are manly and virile, and I want to enjoy your manliness and virility" that would have been a better offer. You would be inside his frame of mind and if you then said something like "and you know how much I worry, I just want to understand this so I can get back to making you happy" you would have probably not had to wait two hours for him to say anything.
Again to those who say "Get out of there girl, you know you can do better" yes, most men don't hit a woman even with continual emotional and physical abuse so if she found a new partner he'd probably not hit her, but she's not going to stop dating him so giving her that advice is not productive.
Posted by thesecond on January 1, 2012 at 7:33 pm | permalink |
There are some insights in your comment, but I thank my lucky stars that the men (and women) I know don't all align with your rigid categories and behaviors.
I would find it far too exhausting to have to plan my every move and "bargain" with a spouse like it was a giant chess game or a manipulative business sale. Ugh!
Communication and understanding, sure.
Posted by Pen on January 1, 2012 at 8:16 pm | permalink |
As someone who has been in an abusive relationship as well as witnessed close friends and family members also in such relationships, leaving is a personal choice, one that is based squarely on the amount of self-respect that a woman (or man, if he is the one being abused) has for herself.
So, in this respect, it matters not what we, the readers, think about Penelope's situation. She will leave or stay based on her own internal sense of what is right. We cannot do much to influence it, one way or the other.
As long as both Penelope and the farmer are willing to take responsibility for their own actions and willing to talk to each other about what is really going on in their relationship, there is hope they can create something healthy for all of them. People can, and do, change, but often only when forced to do so. And Penelope's choice to air this story publicly is one way to apply some of the kind of pressure that forces change. I think that we should wait and see what develops here before laying blame.
Posted by Lesa on January 1, 2012 at 7:35 pm | permalink |
That's a lot of crap you are writing, Penelope. I think your readers cannot help you. You need serious professional help, Since this was the last time I read your blog, I wish you all the best for the future.
Posted by Efestus on January 1, 2012 at 7:37 pm | permalink |
Penelope, you seem like a smart, together woman. I trust you to make the right decision for your life. Outsiders have no right to judge!
Posted by Daphne Gray-Grant on January 1, 2012 at 7:38 pm | permalink |
I find this entire discussion frightening and distressing. Penelope, please just get some distance — emotionally, at least. Please get some objective guidance before one of you gets seriously hurt or put in jail. Consider the damage your parents relationship did to you.
BTW — multiple personality disorder has been thoroughly debunked.
Posted by kim on January 1, 2012 at 7:41 pm | permalink |
whoa WHOA WHOA!!! Huh?? Multiple Pers Disorder debunked?? Where do you live?? Iran?? Ever heard of Herschel Walker?? Roseanne Barr??
Get with the program…your dangerous….to everyone and small cats.
Posted by smokytrees on January 1, 2012 at 7:56 pm | permalink |
I think you'd probably better get with the program, the DSM no longer lists MPD. They've replaced it with DID and any psychologist/psychiatrist with any cred at all realizes that it's exceedingly rare. The Sybil case, the one that started all of that, was a complete fabrication that was the result of poor hypnotic technique, liberal application of sodium pentathol (AKA Truth Serum), a dangerously codependent young woman and an overly ambitious psychiatrist. The techniques used to "diagnose" Sybil were used to diagnose others and led to the satanic ritual abuse scare in the 80s and landed innocent people in jail. It would behoove you to read up on things like this before chastising people about it.
Posted by Jane on January 1, 2012 at 8:20 pm | permalink |
Your making no sense. If tomorrow milk was named paint would it cease to be milk or a marketing ploy or someones bored decision to change the name or to make the name more "user friendly??
DID IS MPD….HELLO???!!!!!??
WTF ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT???
Writers like Penelope are rare….this doesn't mean that other writers can't attain her level.
Throw out the weed your smoking.
Posted by smokytrees on January 1, 2012 at 8:30 pm | permalink |
I have read all your comments throughout this thread. You are unhinged…get help fast.
Posted by Elisabeth on January 1, 2012 at 9:03 pm | permalink |
While I don't think it's relevant to this convo, Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) is definitely still in the DSM-V with a diagnostic criteria revision proposed so I don't think that's quite "debunked." Sybil's been debunked now that she is conveniently dead, but there are fake pregnancies and yet the human race continues to procreate.
MRI has shown some differences in brain function in people diagnosed with DID – see both this abstract and the discussion section where they cite earlier research. Obviously these are small studies but it is a long way from debunked:
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/Mobile/article.aspx?Volume=163&page=630&journalID=13
I think A Fractured Mind by Robert Oxnam is a great
memoir: He even does some great career changes.
Sorry to derail a bit. I don't think Penelope is multiple but I do think, Penelope, the research into how PTSD changes your brain actually is relevant: it means you can't always think your way out, at least not without serious help.
Posted by Shandra on January 1, 2012 at 9:54 pm | permalink |
Thinking that you can change the Farmer's behavior by changing your own is delusional. You have no control over his behavior. Whether or not he hits you is his choice, not yours. You can be the best wife/doormat in the universe, and he might still hit you. You are right; it was your fault he hit you. if you were not present, egging him on, he would not have been able to hit you. Being in a violent relationship obviously fulfills some need of yours, which is why you are still there.
But it is not fair to your kids and you are not fulfilling their needs by staying in this abusive relationship. Why was it okay to leave their father and not to leave the Farmer? This is inconsistent, to say the least. They deserve better than this. Think of your kids instead of yourself for once. You can find someone to beat you later, when they are out of the house and won't have to witness it.
Posted by Debbie on January 1, 2012 at 7:44 pm | permalink |
Exactly my thoughts.
Posted by Cristian on January 2, 2012 at 9:14 am | permalink |
Ditto. The kids are growing fast and will be out of the house soon.
Then, Penelope will have plenty of time to focus on/fight with/angst about/bleed over some guy beating the crap out of her while she blames herself for it.
Right now, she needs to simply focus on supporting and raising her kids, financially and emotionally, and leave the narcissistic pursuit of men, excitement, romance, sex, yada, yada, alone.
Kids first, thrills later.
For some women who suck at relationships, it's better for them to be single mothers, IMO.
Posted by Creamy on January 3, 2012 at 10:11 am | permalink |
I TRUST THIS WAS EFFECTIVE IN ACCOMPLISHING WHATEVER IT WAS YOU HOPED IT WOULD DO FOR YOUR COLUMN.
I HOPE, JUST AS WELL, THAT IT DOESN'T BACKFIRE ON YOU. YOUR KIDS DON'T DESERVE THAT.
Posted by Bill on January 1, 2012 at 7:47 pm | permalink |
Wow, just wow…
You wrote earlier that the farmer said he'd quit hitting you when you changed your behavior. If that's true, he's not hitting you in the heat of the moment. He's hitting you because he wants to get his way and violence is his way to get it.
In your case, zero tolerance for domestic abuse is a straw man argument.
Get out while you're still alive.
Posted by Brent Logan on January 1, 2012 at 7:51 pm | permalink |
Penelope, I believe you are conflating blame/fault with responsibility. I don't believe they are the same.
Only a counselor who knows your situation and has the 2 of you right there face to face, can help you to "assign" blame/fault without rancor; and then address the issue of responsibility. Your readers cannot help you there.
If someone wanted to know what I think, I'd say it is your responsibility to not engage when things are heating up. If you are baited, do not engage. If you are cornered, do not engage. If you are overly angry or close to tears, do not engage. If you feel the adrenaline, the increased heart rate, the flushing of the face, do not engage.
Two examples: I am in martial arts, and we hold a women's self defense class every few months. Our master tells the women NOT to kick in the groin because this move has the power to (further) enrage a male attacker. We learn plenty of other strategies for self-defense . . . that are smarter.
Another example where there is baiting, and the opponents refrain from fully engaging is the current political debates. I take note of how often a candidate will NOT directly answer an attack/assertion, will not engage (fully) in order to keep the debate from escalating to ugliness. Have you noticed these strategies? Both with the press corps and with another candidate . . . ?
Last example: When I was in a Masters pgm, we were required to work in teams. An argument arose about power/leadership/who-has-the-right-to-edit-my-work . . . I went whining to an instructor about being insulted and feeling powerless, having had my written work edited away to nothing . . . My instructor said–yes, you guessed it–DO NOT ENGAGE. Stop answering back. Only repeat your point, quietly and confidently, with no increase in tone, no escalation, no inflammatory language. After 3 repetitions, do not even repeat your point . . . do not engage at all.
I think, underneath, not-engaging is an effort to stop trying to win. If you win, the other loses. If you care about the other at all, work towards win-win, towards compromise. Ask the question: Is either of us willing to compromise here? If no compromise is forthcoming, this says a lot about the state of the relationship–that there has to be a winner and a loser.
Last, I don't see what you see–that most of your responses expressed hatred and disdain towards women who stay. I saw that most of your responders expressed support for YOU, and asked you to love yourself and protect yourself and your children.
I do not understand your turn-about. (I went back and re-read everything 2x.)I think both you and the Farmer are playing a dangerous game. And if I am confused, I cannot imagine how much more confused the 2 children must be.
Posted by chris on January 1, 2012 at 7:55 pm | permalink |
You are a loathsome attention whore.
Posted by Jncc on January 1, 2012 at 8:00 pm | permalink |
Penelope, your self hatred is exhausting. I have to unsubscribe. I will miss most of your blog but I just cannot hang on to watch you justify an abusive relationship. This comes from a thoroughly fucked up individual who has not compromised the one thing in the world that is worth two shits– great love. Your mate is your equal, your supporter, the place where you go to get comfort and reassurance. You do not have this with someone who cannot tolerate you to the point of violence. Because you are resigned to justifying his nastiness as part of your own fault is BS and also very tiring. Find a real relationship with a man who loves every part of you, even the shitty stuff and doesn't harm you or make you feel bad for being a complex human being. The fact that you put up with this crap is intolerable. Bye. Miss you.
Posted by Lovendasun on January 1, 2012 at 8:01 pm | permalink |
Make that two. P, I hope I can come back one day to enjoy your posts about leading an interesting life. What you have to offer now is too painful to watch, especially when there are kids involved.
Posted by Chris M. on January 3, 2012 at 8:39 pm | permalink |
This is one dysfunctional and crazy group.
Smokey, stop smoking and read some sciene, not junk.
Good luck to you all. I'm out of here. Actually, I respectfully suggest the rest of your readers to the same and stop getting sucked into a crazy vortex.
Posted by kim on January 1, 2012 at 8:03 pm | permalink |
Penelope, do what you want. We know you will anyway. Stay, leave, whatever. I hope the farmer changes the locks, but he can't be very sensible if he allows you to remain in his life. But your freedom ends where your actions harm your sons. And if this is a bid for publicity, screw you.
Posted by Kate on January 1, 2012 at 8:06 pm | permalink |
Your point of view was thought provoking to say the least. It was not a point of view I had considered, being one of the knee-jerk get the heck out of there advocates (though I didn't go so far as to try and tell you what to do in a comment).
I think you did the right thing to step back and give some deep thought to what you wanted to do. I can't say that I necessarily agree with your decision but it is, after all, your decision and you have to make it. No one else should tell you how to live your life, and unsolicited advice is worse than useless in my opinion.
I think you have a good head on your shoulders, and all of the advice on your website (solicited by me, btw!) has been well thought out and very helpful. So, I think you have the intelligence to figure out what is best for you. After all, you are the one living in the middle of it. You know the ins and outs of your situation better than anyone reading this blog possibly could.
Rather than try to give advice, I will wish you the best of luck with your decision. I sincerely hope things work out well for you and that things get better.
Posted by Michael on January 1, 2012 at 8:06 pm | permalink |
I support you too. I wish your parents had. My daughter has Aspergers and I worry about her ability to deal with conflict in relationships as she gets older. Right now she has very little assertiveness. How does one instill it? She is 14.
Posted by Nancy on January 1, 2012 at 8:13 pm | permalink |
Penelope: It's really hard for me to wrap my head around what you write about domestic abuse because I live a different paradigm. I need to remember that when I read your blog sometimes. Ultimately, it's your life, and your decisions. I would just hate to see your kids get comfortable with this type of behaviour. Because it doesn't have to be their paradigm. xs
Posted by Su T Fitterman on January 1, 2012 at 8:17 pm | permalink |
I see your point, but your kids have a dad already who isn't the farmer. You don't seem to have been happy with the Farmer… Ever. Even in the beginning. He just seems to make you feel worse about yourself. You said he thought that going two months without hurting you is "progress". That's not normal, nor acceptable. Even if you're violent too, it just seems you'd be happier in the long run if you left the farm.
Posted by Miss Milk on January 1, 2012 at 8:19 pm | permalink |
I thought it was wrong and tasteless to blog the post with the photo of the bruise precisely for the reasons explained in this post.
I don't actually understand the need to seek assurance from a large virtual community of strangers – what does all these people's opinions matter? They weren't there and can't evaluate the situation correctly and fairly no matter what they say.
This post puts the event back into perspective and also hopefully give people a chance to reflect on their knee-jerk reactions.
Posted by Anna on January 1, 2012 at 8:27 pm | permalink |
By the way, I still think it is wrong – think about from the farmer's perspective: whatever lead to the violent situation, you have literally *thousands* (or more) supporter's on your side against him. They all point fingers at him and label him bad guy, someone who beats his wife. His photos are on this blog.
This could be a case where he was provoked over and over till he snapped (like in the example with the wallpaper). Thousands of visitors and potential media attention are attracted to this very controversial issue (relevant in all cultures) and it could be a way to gain traffic and attention, sacrificing his reputation in the process. I can't think of any worse way to punish one's spouse – it is like encouraging any stranger on the Internet to engage in cyber bullying against him, and it very much exceeds domestic violence in damage.
Posted by Anna on January 1, 2012 at 8:48 pm | permalink |
Good for you!
Have you considered creating a space in your home where the Farmer can go when you are getting on his nerves? A man cave that you are forbidden to enter?
I'm suggesting this because if your Asberger's results in your not being able to read the Farmer's body language, then you are just not going to be able to recognize his emotional boundaries. If you don't know when to stop or when to turn down the intensity of your demands, it seems like he may resort to violence because it's the only thing that stops you when you are pounding on his last nerve. So having a physical space that he can retreat to and shut the door is a signal that you may be able to recognize that he's had all he can stand and he can't stand any more. You may even work out an agreement for an automatic timeout — that means, you stop getting in his face about whatever — when the Farmer goes to his man cave and shuts the door.
I also hope you both nourish your marriage by praising each other and expressing your gratitude for one another, especially for specific traits, habits and qualities. Kindness is a very powerful tool for making a marriage feel rewarding and successful.
Posted by Cynthia Yockey, A Conservative Lesbian on January 1, 2012 at 8:28 pm | permalink |
I second Cynthia's comment, it is wise and shows respect for both parties.
The fact is that everybody have emotional boundaries, and everybody need their personal space to retreat & recover as needed. I think even I could get violent if someone was constantly in my face – I would definitely snap. I think anyone can snap – myself, my dogs, my husband (he isn't violent, btw) if invaded relentlessly with no escape route. People are not usually resorting to violence because we have been trained to restrain ourselves, but we all have it in us and would resort to violence if we are driven into a corner and relentlessly confronted with someone else's need, demands and aggressions.
Posted by Anna on January 1, 2012 at 9:13 pm | permalink |
Smart comment by Cynthia. Most productive I've seen in all responses. Nice work.
Posted by Jamie Farrell on January 1, 2012 at 10:34 pm | permalink |
I think so too. Reading it, I could feel an almost palpable trapped feeling.
Posted by Pen on January 1, 2012 at 11:22 pm | permalink |
I am very disappointed in this article Penelope, not because you decided to stay with The Farmer but because you are telling the world of abuse victims what their abusers are telling them is correct – basically "they are right to be hitting you, it is all your fault." Not only that but you are saying. "I am really successful and really smart so you can be confident in taking my word for it."
From your story about your parents, your mom doesn't sound like she was abused, it sounds like your parents fought (probably a lot) and they both chose to use physical violence during these fights, but that was a mutual decision, actually if anything your dad was just defending himself, the fact that they also hit you (who could have done nothing to deserve it, and in no way could have deserved an attack) meant that you were abused.
Another thought is, you pride yourself on telling us the difficult details in your life, but all you say about the fight is that "[you] deserve it" well Penelope MAN UP and tell us what you did or what you think you did to deserve it. Did you walk in the door and say "Good morning dear would you like some breakfast" and get to eat a fist? Or did you try to use a nail gun to nail his feet to the floor and get hit because he didn't think that would be enjoyable? Obviously both of those are absurd but we have NOTHING to reference. That is if you want us to truly understand what you are going through. People will always judge a situation based on the information given, and the information you gave us is that he is beating you, and the "it is my fault" seems only like a smokescreen of an abuse victim.
Then again, maybe you don't really want us to hear what you did because it is as trivial as saying "good morning" *POW*
I am very disappointed in all but the title of this article.
Posted by Brad S. on January 1, 2012 at 8:33 pm | permalink |
You say that no one knows what leads up to the fight. But I do not understand the wallpaper example provided. It sounds like your mothers actions "justify" getting hit by your father. I agree that no one understands the circumstances leading up to a fight. However, the action of a man hitting a woman can NEVER be justified. Regardless of your actions the farmer has no excuse to hit you.
I just got out of an abusive relationship. I was like you for a long time though. Justified/ made excuses for his actions, thought it was partially my fault."it takes two", ect ect
I had so many red flags along the way and should have left so many times, but tried to make it work for 4 years. The red flags got bigger and bigger and bigger however. Until one day, he did something so unthinkable that I snapped out of it and RAN for the hills. I look back and feel lucky to have gotten out now and not when it could have been to late. Please run.
Posted by BeenThere on January 1, 2012 at 8:54 pm | permalink |
I'm not particularly surprised that you're staying with him, although I do hope you'll continue to stay at the hotel to give each other some physical distance.
I AM surprised that you focused on the negative comments. That's really messed up because there were so, so many supportive ones. That said, your brain isn't computing correctly right now – it can't be – so I suppose focusing on the negative comments isn't all that strange.
The reason I think your readers are pissed off is because in your first post you didn't give the whole story. You gave part of the story which didn't include your part in the situation. It is disingenuous and even more so because you still don't tell the whole story; You tell a story about your mom.
See, if you're going to bet big you better start with being honest. If not with your readers than with yourself. And lying by omission is not being honest. It is keeping secrets plain and simple – the very thing you say you don't want to do.
You have a very lethal piece of baggage and that is that kids are better off no matter the environment if their parents stay together. I've told you my story about this and it is NOT true. It just isn't, Penelope. You have to get off the statistics to support your baggage train and look at real life – your real life. The looks on your kids faces when you rush them out to the car and to a hotel. Pay attention. If you're telling them some story that isn't true about the why of it, I can tell you that you're not fooling them one bit. They are bright kids and can easily make logical connections.
However it turns out, I really hope that you come out the other side with insight about yourself. Not about connecting your personal problems with that of a company – which is really wrong – but that you deserve a good life with people who love you.
Posted by Katherine on January 1, 2012 at 9:01 pm | permalink |
Lovely comment, thanks!
Posted by Cristian on January 2, 2012 at 1:20 pm | permalink |
So. You feel OK about violence in your home, and in the world. It doesn't matter that this violence is domestic. You condone violence as an appropriate way to live in relationship with other people. It says a lot about your philosophy in life and in businesses. You might be smart, and good at start ups, and willing to take risks. Good for you. But, I question your ethics and integrity. And for that reason, I think your "advice" is questionable and am removing myself from your blog. The world has too many people like you in it and I cannot support it.
Posted by NonaSharon on January 1, 2012 at 9:03 pm | permalink |
Nobody's perfect.
Everybody requires grace from others.
While a violent person may be a greater source of risk of harm toward you and your boys than, say, a poor person from whom you risk the harm of homelessness, or a fat person from whom you risk the harm of their early death, you can extend grace for these and many other imperfections.
However, if you do so, do so unconditionally.
(While you should demand an end to the behavior, it should be a separate matter.)
Posted by Clinton on January 1, 2012 at 9:04 pm | permalink |
Since I don't know you personally, I realize any opinion I have on your situation could be totally off. I just worry that since he broke up with you 50 times while you were dating, that maybe pushing or violence is a way of trying to make YOU leave since the idea of no tolerance for violence really is a prevalent one.
Does he say he doesn't want you to leave?
Even if he wants you to leave, he'll still miss you.
And yeah, we don't know how you got the bruise. How did it happen?
Posted by Crystal on January 1, 2012 at 9:05 pm | permalink |
Penelope says, "The most common response I've heard is some variation of: "Zero tolerance for domestic abuse!""
Strange, the most common response I heard in your hundreds of comments was "get out please, for your children".
We all hear what we want to hear…
Posted by bzzzzz on January 1, 2012 at 9:10 pm | permalink |
Love it. I've been reading your blog for a couple years and have never commented, just enjoyed it; but wanted to give you props on this post. I live in the start up world as well. And thus, my tolerance for risk is way higher than most. Something else I've learned in the start up world as I've made millions of mistakes through the years is…"look in the mirror". If someone is criticizing you, there's probably a reason for it. I don't think that "criticizing" and "hitting someone" is the same EXACT thing, but I do think they are both ways of someone letting you know that you need to get your shit together; and while some people may say that "hitting someone" is taking it too far…that's just OUR culture. Other cultures in the world think domestic abuse is fine and even normal…who is the US to say it's not?
Another point – only "we" really know our "other half". Just because someone has hit you once or twice, 99% of people will tell you – "he'll do it again". Well, yes. he probably will. BUT if you are okay with it, then it is what it is.
I truly believe "you make your bed, you lie in it". Clearly, you have chosen to 'take' this form of punishment and criticism. If it's okay with you and you don't think the farmer will ever hurt your children or kill you…well, then you've made your bed. No one else should condemn you for it.
That said…as usual, you've hit (no pun intended) on a pretty hot topic so I'm sure you expected the response you received.
Bottom line: no one has to be okay with you except you. If you're okay, screw your readers. While I DO believe I would handle the situation differently AND if I was a "good friend of yours", sure, I would give you my opinion – clearly, you're okay. That's all that matters.
Good luck and cheers to being brave!
Posted by Jamie Farrell on January 1, 2012 at 9:11 pm | permalink |
I don't agree with what you're doing, but going against the grain seems to work for you.
What also reassures me about you, Penelope, is that you're in a constant state of evidence gathering. If, a year from now, working on *your* end isn't helping, then you'll re-assess and may choose to get out of there.
Another helping of unsolicited advice: The simple phrase, "Do you need some space?" to help people who have trouble asking for it. My parter and I worked for several months to come up with that no-brainer. She was sick of me shutting down like a rock or becoming a jerk and we finally learned to use that one. Picture the part of the soccer game when everyone sits on the grass and has an orange slice to cool down before the second half. Take a break!
I believe it's not *your* job to assess when he needs space, but it's a nice favor you can do for someone you love when you're trying to make things work.
Posted by Another Andrea on January 1, 2012 at 9:18 pm | permalink |
No, Penelope. Rationalization and justification don't make it ok. And that wasn't necessarily anger and disdain you were reading. As a matter of fact, I didn't get any of that tone of voice in the same quotes when I read them. I hear a strong message though. You have issues. You can deal with them. The farmer has issues. You cannot deal with his. It's pretty rare for people in this type of relationship to become healthy in sync. You both need help, but you almost surely need to move on in order to really get it. And I think you really know that, or you wouldn't be posting your diary and photos for the world to see.
Go to a group for battered women and ask those experts for their response to your big long explanation about why it's ok sometimes or why it is your fault, after all. Maybe they can help you see the situation for what it really is. Obviously your readers can't.
Posted by Kimberly R. on January 1, 2012 at 9:23 pm | permalink |
I read your post, and I get to the end and why you're staying with the farmer. I guess I wonder why the farmer stays with you. I don't mean that as anything but something I genuinely wonder. And I thought, does that make sense to ask that in connection with Penelope's story of her father and mother, and I thought, yeah, why did her father stay with her mother.
I don't know the answers. I'm not trying to make a point. I just wonder. I wish life was a zero tolerance easy decision making kind of world, but it just isn't. So in the meantime, know that what I wrote before is true. I would miss you. And I wonder why men stay with women who do things that result in hitting the woman.
Life is confusing.
Posted by Tara on January 1, 2012 at 9:58 pm | permalink |
You are so much more screwed up than I ever imagined. I hope you are not having more kids, ever. You may not consider yourself in an abusive relationship, but you must admit you are in a horrible relationship. Your nut did not fall far from your mother's tree.
Posted by Renee on January 1, 2012 at 10:03 pm | permalink |
I was in a toxic relationship. But I didnt realize it at the time: all I knew is that I'd begun to hate myself and the person I'd become. I cried all the time & felt miserable and lost.
It was only after I finally ended the situation — and suffered through several months of emotional withdrawal — that I got some distance/clarity and regained my balence and peace of mind. Looking back, I cant believe how unhealthy and co-dependent that relationship had been … and how good it is to feel like myself again.
P, a question for you: Do you who you are now, the person you've become during the course of your relationship with The Farmer ?
Posted by lb on January 1, 2012 at 10:05 pm | permalink |
oops, make that: "… do you -like- the person you've become …"
Posted by lb on January 1, 2012 at 10:08 pm | permalink |
oops, make that: "Do you -like- the person you've become …"
Posted by lb on January 1, 2012 at 10:09 pm | permalink |
You are such a contradiction to your own self. I hate saying this because you, in writing, seem very likable because of your vulnerability.
But you preach taking ownership and accountability when you are often sarcastic and publicly judge whiny emailers who ask you for advice when their approach is not to your liking.
Why do you bitch about the farmer beating you and then blast your commenters for being judgmental when you are the one who left out the important information of your role in the incident? When I first read your domestic violence posting, I knew that you had a huge part in it, judging by the way you interact and I think the biggest issue is that you use your childhood as a crutch to be in these abusive relationships that you probably created.
I am not defending the Farmer. I could not care less about him. I just think that you should take a moment to work on your childhood issues. Sorry that happened to you but aren't you in your 40s? There comes a time in someone's life when you have to decide to deal with the hand that you were dealt and make a better life for yourself.
You have that control. Stop your erratic behavior. If the Farmer doesn't want to talk when you want him to, why don't you leave him alone? Why do you guys have to talk when YOU feel like it?
And, why are you always in couple's therapy? Your first marriage failed and you quickly jumped into another one that had red flags throughout your so-called courtship.
It's all a mess but the beauty is, you CAN fix this. But that requires changing who you are. Can you do that? Is that realistic? Stop being scared of being alone. Stop acting like you created this super successful business and you are not with someone for the stability.
You need to take accountability for your own actions and think about who you are hurting in the process. Your children.
Posted by Marc on January 1, 2012 at 10:10 pm | permalink |
I'm not reading the other comments, because I know from experience they will make me mad.
As a child, I experienced something very similar to what you're describing.
My dad is emotionally abusive. My stepmom was often physically violent towards him. One time, she went to the hospital, because she attacked him with a clock, he pushed her away, and she fell and hit the dresser.
Whose fault is that? I say, in situations like these, that's entirely the wrong question.
Winning, being in the right. It's irrelevant. The only important thing is fixing the problem.
But, as a kid who grew up in this environment, I can say with all certainty that I'd rather have lived with my other parent than stay in the house. When I was 17, I finally got the courage to run away.
Keep putting your kids first, no matter what. They're innocents.
Posted by Brit on January 1, 2012 at 10:17 pm | permalink |
Penelope:
What some of the advice-givers said, about zero tolerance and blaming victims was totally wrong. They shouldn't have said it.
BUT.
That does not mean the rest of what they said is untrue, and that those of us who said the same things without the insults are wrong. After all, it is nonsensical to say that because someone says one thing wrong, the opposite of everything else they say is true.
It is never okay for him to hit you. Never, never, never. The things you have described you doing to him–well, people have done worse to me, far worse, and the last time I hit anyone for it I was about 12, and that was too old.
He does not get to hit you. It is not okay. It was not okay. That does not mean any feelings you have for him make you a bad person. It just means that it is wrong for him to hit you.
And your comment that by coming from a violent household, you are contributing to the violence–well, you mean that you aren't leaving because you think hitting can be okay. Because as you described in your story involving your mother, sometimes you sympathize with the hitter. Guess what. She didn't deserve to be hit, either. If things were getting out of hand, your father should have left. Not restrained her, unless it was from attacking him. Not hit her, unless it was in self-defense and was necessary for self-defense.
That is what makes you different from people who did not grow up in violent households.
Posted by Ismone on January 1, 2012 at 10:56 pm | permalink |
I also really love this comment. Especially: "Guess what. She didn't deserve to be hit, either. If things were getting out of hand, your father should have left. Not restrained her, unless it was from attacking him. Not hit her, unless it was in self-defense and was necessary for self-defense"
Penelope, I'm on your side and I wish the best for you and your children.
Posted by afb1221 on January 2, 2012 at 9:58 pm | permalink |
I think you're absolutely insane to continue to stay with this guy, setting up piss poor examples of a relationship for you kids. And now your kids will grow up to be in dysfunctional relationships just as you were born into one and are now in one. Congrats. You've ruined a future generation.
Posted by Victoria on January 1, 2012 at 11:09 pm | permalink |
Your kids are going to hate you. I didn't even read this post fully and scrolled down to the "I'm staying with the farmer." I still think this is all a LIE and you're creating stories and drama to stay relevant in the blogosphere… similar to how celebrities get quickie marriages so they can have weddings and be RELEVANT once again- think Kim Kardashian. Yea. Anyways, you say you could live anywhere and are financially secure. I doubt it. If that were true, you should get the fuck out. You have BPD. You go from 'Oh hey world, I'm DYING!!!! I left my hubby and am in a hotel with my kids and here's a PICTURE of my bruise." …. To… "You guys suck! How dare you tell me to LEAVE this situation?!! I am so totally staying with the farmer."
My mother stayed with my dad who was VIOLENT often, hitting her in front of us… it was bad. I left home at 18 to attend an Ivy League school, and hated her ever since. The difference between my mom and you? My mom really had no other options, financially. I still wished she left. You claim to have options so you're really just screwing over your kids. YOU SUCK. WHAT A HORRIBLE FUCKING MOTHER. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT KIND OF DAMAGE YOU'RE DOING TO YOUR KIDS. MAN THE FUCK UP PENELOPLE.
Posted by mona on January 1, 2012 at 11:10 pm | permalink |
T-10 minutes and you'll probably delete that comment and if you do, I don't give a shit. But your life sounds awful. I don't know who all these fanboys are on your site, but you're worse than Tim Ferriss. Get a real job. Also, you are the worst person to give career advice. What kind of career have you had? It's pretty lame. I know about 500 people with better blogs than yours. And better, more real careers. They'd never put their personal shit on here, especially when they make horrible mistakes, like letting their CHILDREN witness a MAN hitting THEIR MOTHER. Are you INSANE? I don't give a shit about you, but I care about kids because they have no choice as minors. You FUCKING SUCK.
Posted by mona on January 1, 2012 at 11:12 pm | permalink |
Penelope, you are spot on here. Best of luck to you.
Posted by Liane on January 1, 2012 at 11:22 pm | permalink |
Positive self-change and improvement in your own behavior is, quite honestly, the best route you can take.
You'll either grow yourself out of that relationship in your own time, or you'll end up growing back together. Either way, you and the kiddos will end up benefitting.
Trust yourself.
Posted by Jani on January 1, 2012 at 11:39 pm | permalink |
Good for you that you can write about things that others are not comfortable with. I think you're taking a wrong turn but I don't know you, don't like to judge you and I don't want to join the side I agree with and yell at you to leave.
And that's why I'm going to stop reading your blog.
Posted by American Debt Project on January 1, 2012 at 11:50 pm | permalink |
You do have agency, Penelope. You can create a more positive environment for yourself and your children, but it doesn't necessarily mean having to stick it out with the Farmer.
I wasn't able to read your post as the establishment of yourself and your freedom of choice. I read it as your search for reasons why it's good to stay, so you can. It's true that you can change yourself. That's always good, if it improves how you interact with others. But for a long time it's sounded like you and the Farmer haven't been able to meet vital components of each other's needs, enough so that you're yo-yoing wildly between when it works and when it doesn't work.
I can't tell you what to do. As someone who's experienced DV, I think you're right about taking charge of yourself (because really, it's the only thing you CAN do – you can't change him), but I can't ignore the instinct says you staying with the Farmer isn't the healthy thing for you – I don't think things will change (if they do) fast enough to make the bad parts fade away enough to let the good ones shine. Ultimately, what worked for me (and many other women who break free) was to leave and close that door once and for all. At the same time, I got into therapy because I knew the relationship was a reflection of something going on with me, too, and if I wanted any chance of a good, healthy relationship after, I had to fix some things about me.
Hope this helps. Please take care of yourself and your kids. I read these posts and worry a lot about you.
Posted by S. on January 2, 2012 at 12:18 am | permalink |
Dear Penelope, you have been in my thoughts and prayers. I applaud you for living your life out loud so we can all learn. I too grew up in a violent, abusive household and then attracted more of the same in my 20's. I agree that it's a two person thing and that if one person leaves, the other one will probably continue the pattern unless there is counseling, coaching or something. I think you should consider getting some professional counseling and consider how this is affecting your children. Whatever you chose, I am sending you good vibes and support,
Elaine
Posted by Elaine on January 2, 2012 at 12:22 am | permalink |
My gut says right on target. Sick to death of one-sided flamers.
Posted by Alice44 on January 2, 2012 at 12:26 am | permalink |
This posting angers me at a viscerel level. So much that I know that I will be bypassing any future postings you do about the farmer's physical and verbal abuse of you.
It's not because you are staying with the farmer. As I have commented before, that is your choice.
It's reading the spurious arguments and rationalizations which make me shake my head in absolute wonder. No we have not walked your path nor know the chain of events that led to him shoving you into a bedpost. Still, I rathe doubt I would find it justified.
As I have commented in the past, my ex-husband was an abuser, mostly verba. One physical incident happened when we first went out (which should have been my wake up call) and the other "significant incident" was the one that led to the end of my marriage.
I mention this simply as someone who's been there. When you've been there and you read some of the stuff you post, it feels like banging your head against the bedpost again and again while asking yourself: "Does this woman get it? Or does it play in her mind like a bizarre episode of "Real Housewives," or "The Honeymooners ("Bang, zoom Alice, straight to the moon…for real.
I think about how in my own situation, I was lucky…not so for some of the women I have known or known of through friends.
Remembering their stories, then reading your "zero tolerance is wrong" and spurious arguments and rationalizations is what pisses me off.
I think "Is it because Penelope hasn't ended up in the e.r. with a broken jaw and ribcage or swollen face…because the abuse only happens sometimes rather than facing near daily beatings an electric iron cord (a friend of my mother's married to a doctor)…or worse like some of the women I've known?"
Most of those women didn't have a cozy hotel room that could run to or a national blog with a ga-zillion readers they could tell their stories to. My mother's friend didn't live in a time when as a culture we took women's stories–much less their battered bodies seriously–enough that "zero tolerance" would ever cross our collective minds much less be someone we espoused.
In the end, I have to respect that it's your journey. I won't be "glued to the computer screen" with bated breath waiting how it turns out.
Posted by Gayle on January 2, 2012 at 12:28 am | permalink |
I've been in an abusive relationship. A few actually. So yes, I get what it's like to not leave the first, second, third or (fill in the blank with a number) time.
I wasn't married to a farmer. But I left the corporate world and did become a Navy wife. My marriage never stood a chance with sister's suicide and two deployments by the Officer who was an asshole to be married to but now we are friends for the sake of our son. I'll let him decide when he's older on what kind of man his dad is.
So i'm now divorced almost 4 years now. Single mom. Back in the startup world. I didn't leave him. He left me. Which actually turned out to be the best thing that could happen. I couldn't see or say that at the time, but it's true.
And my son is much better off for it.
I'm not lecturing. I'm just throwing in a comment to let you know that there are women out there who have been through fucked up shit like you have and come out of abusive relationships intact. It took a while.
Look, I don't care for your advice for women, but I have a better understanding of where it comes from and I'm really sorry that you are going through this. I really do hope you get yourself to a place where you and your children can be happy. Whether who leave or not. I hope it gets better for you and them.
Christine
Posted by Christine Lu on January 2, 2012 at 12:35 am | permalink |
Never commented before, but I've gotta say, this is one of your best posts. Really insightful and provocative and I hope it gets as much attention as the bruise post (and the miscarriage post).
Posted by Elizabeth on January 2, 2012 at 12:41 am | permalink |
Hi Penelope,
I read all this and wonder what you want from your readers around this topic? What do we want from you around this topic? Do we feel like we are doing due dilligence by saying all this stuff that you know already? You aren't going anywhere until you are motivated on an emotional, not intellectual level to leave. As you said, you are staying because you are a risk-taker, a fighter, and you are willing to bet everything you hold dear on an imaginary payoff rather than the concrete evidence that has has been building. You are afraid to leave, fail, or whatever simple as that. No shame in that. You probably already know you're kids are going to be in therapy for the rest of their lives, regardless of whether or not the violence actively continues (….my wife and I have a consistently emotionally and physically safe home but I've nicely passed ADHD down to my daughters so they'll probably be in therapy plenty– nobody get's away baggage-free) Heck you may have even resigned yourself to them possibly going to jail for repeating behaviors. You are a master at research and stats, you know the probable outcomes of all this, but this is why all these responses are silly on some level– you can't convince yourself with all the facts!
The heart feeds on connection in whatever form seems either normative or accessible to it and will undermind the intellect to get it. When we unconsciously percieve ourselves to be dying of thirst we will drink mud because it has water and water is survival. High risk, andrenaline rush, rewarded by survival but little actual sustainable pleasure– not that you are actually shooting for enjoyment. No amount of intellectual banter will stop an unprotected heart desperate with to be loved by a particular person.
I honestly don't think there is a proper or improper response and nothing anyone can say to keep you from returning to your life more determined to defy (deny?) gravity. Ironically, I think fan indignation will only increase the defense of the rationale and encouragement will only confirm the "rightness" of the risk-taking. Acceptance is a wonderful thing. Let's all share this and stop this pointless lesson….
…and on that note, look, Penelope, I get it. This virtual stuff is surrogate love (like the mud/water analogy above) and it probably feels safer and better than nothing. But I gotta say, none of us have earned the trust and openness you give us. As a fan, I want to learn from you about professional stuff but when you give me that much of yourself without my asking for it or earning it makes me feel like I'm somehow party to you violating your own boundaries– and this topic ultimately is about boundaries. We're all so used to be used but that doesn't mean we have to like it and keep doing it, does it? Since you are all about being open here, I just figured you'd want to know what it's like to engage you like this. (I do wish you asked, though….)
Penelope, I once heard that a noted Native American therapist related emotional experiences to visitations from spirits, almost like a stretched out ultra raw version of "It's a Wonderful Life". When we ignore one spirit, another stronger, more insistent one comes behind it. They come to alert us that we are not finding ways to properly meet most basic emotional needs for connection, autonomy, (self-)forgiveness and mutual respect. And point isn't the spirit (although the spirit could be as ugly as a spirit of suicide), it's the improperly met need. Ignore the need and spirit comes back stronger and we cannot talk our way out of it. What is this spirit trying to tell you?
Posted by Anthony on January 2, 2012 at 12:44 am | permalink |
"Wrong"? There is no right or wrong–only consequences. If only the development of your kids' emotional intelligence were as important to you as development of their musical intelligence. Is this an aspie parenting thing?
Sort of amazing to think that, as fucked up as the kids are becoming from this, Penelope is considered the parent competent enough for sole custody.
Posted by Liz on January 2, 2012 at 12:56 am | permalink |
I just thought of something else too…this really calls into question the interesting != happy principle that this blog has set up. Maybe it's only true for people with emotional backgrounds like Penelope's.
Posted by Liz on January 2, 2012 at 1:02 am | permalink |
"People who blame other people can't get along with siblings, can't get along at work, lose friends quickly. People who facilitate that behavior say, "It's not your fault.""
You know my brother?
Posted by Snakeman99 on January 2, 2012 at 1:06 am | permalink |
Such valuable posts from this blogger. "Domestic violence" escalates due to the inherent secrecy encouraged by the standard, well-meaning advice-givers who say "just leave now." One doesn't need a therapy degree to advise this. Your talking about it honestly, and from your perspective, sheds light on the many, true nuances. Your honesty also directly and immediately helps protect you and your family from injury while you make your own choices. There is no deadline for "figuring out what you are going to do" (except one obvious deadline, of course). Please continue to share, despite the mostly one-sided chorus of posters. Please trust your instincts, for you are the only expert on you and your relationships.
Posted by Brooke on January 2, 2012 at 1:53 am | permalink |
I agree with with zero tolerance being wrong. I have no experience with domestic violence other than to say I have 2 boys and a husband and lived through years of sleep deprivation. There are moments in life when everyone has the potential for violence. naive people believe only "those people" hit/push a spouse. Ask any severely sleep deprived parent how close they came to violence. Terrifyingly close. Oprah is such a great teacher in this area, we are all capable of doing great acts of good or causing great harm. It's all in your control. You clearly know what role you play and now you can do better. As long as your with a fundamentally decent person.
This is only a guess but perhaps your pursuit of being a perfect mother (homeschooling) and all your professional goals is all too much. Remember, pioneer woman doesn't do it all alone. She is very wealthy and well support with family and friends.
Posted by Donna on January 2, 2012 at 1:55 am | permalink |
people , WAKE UP !!!!
This woman is just promoting her new book ,which will be out in 2 months.
Take a look and think
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0789747987/?tag=brazecaree-20
Posted by maria on January 2, 2012 at 2:04 am | permalink |
Seems more like you are promoting it! Unless you are her?
Posted by Kusandra on January 2, 2012 at 4:26 am | permalink |
people WAKE UP!
This woman is just promoting her new book.It will be out in 2 months!
Take a look and think
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0789747987/?tag=brazecaree-20
Posted by maria on January 2, 2012 at 2:07 am | permalink |
Well isn't that interesting….can't trust anyone.
Posted by Joellen on January 3, 2012 at 12:36 pm | permalink |
I think you have a point.
However, if it was you provoking him out of his wits, maybe it wasn't fair branding him publicly as abusive as you have done.
Posted by Susanne on January 2, 2012 at 2:14 am | permalink |
I don't think zero tolerance should have anything to do with apportionment of blame.
The point being that no matter what the other person has done to provoke such anger, violence should never be the response. Unless you are in physical danger and it's purely self-defence, there is no excuse or reason whatsoever to respond with violence.
You're making a statement that when things get really bad, when you're really angry, imposing your physical strength and hurting someone someone else is ok.
So I don't know if there is a grey area there.
Not saying it means every woman has to leave the man (though you should), or that we shouldn't support whatever choice the woman makes, but that there simply cannot be excuses or justifications.
Posted by Kat on January 2, 2012 at 3:04 am | permalink |
I was shocked when you first posted the last entry & even more shocked now. Judging from that bruise you have, that didn't look like just a slap in the face type bruise. It seems you're trying to rationalize his behavior & that staying is the best bet now. You've found another man after your first divorce, you can do it again! However, I often find that people jump into relationships too quickly after ending ones which is often why they never work out. Because you may have issues that need to be worked out but no issue is enough to make abuse ok period. Take a break from men & just concentrate on you & your kids. Good luck.
Posted by G on January 2, 2012 at 3:21 am | permalink |
Someone brought up a great point. Essentially if you're saying this is a two way street, what did YOU do in this situation that you think may have provoked him to push you?
Posted by G on January 2, 2012 at 3:53 am | permalink |
There are no recipes for relationships or child rearing. We build on the lessons of those who came before us but we still must make our own choices.
Penelope, the Farmer & family are living with many unusual changes in their lives. Getting married, raising children together, adapting his home to theirs, home schooling and daily living. Biggest of all, the Farmer is separating his farm from his parent's and differentiating himself from them. I haven't read any comments taking this into account. This level of stress can cause people to act out in ways they may never do again. A real marriage is about facing issues head on and working together and getting better at being a team. Learning to treat each other better and learning to treat ourselves better. It takes a lifetime.
No one knows what it is inside anyone's marriage but their own. Do you think people capable of being objective and honest about the struggles within their own marriage? To quote Joseph Campbell "Marriage isn't a lifelong love affair, it's a lifelong ordeal." He was married 49 years until his death.
Domestic abuse is much more than a shove. Penelope is blazing a trail in openness and public living. Clearly the Farmer is not holding her back and has chosen to participate. Also, his stress over dividing his farm is not something any of us can understand and neither can Penelope. This is probably a huge contributing factor in their volatility.
If Penelope and the Farmer do the work of being honest with themselves and both forget about being right, they have a good shot. They need couples thereby, individual therapy and family therapy. Medication can be dangerous. Be wary. The doctors are using education & experience but ultimately they proscribe their best guess as to what is needed. A bad reaction to a drug can cause problems for months or even years.
All the best to Penelope and family.
Posted by Kusandra on January 2, 2012 at 4:09 am | permalink |
They've been in therapy all along. Hasn't worked, apparently. But no matter, now P will simply "fix it". Good plan.
The farmer never blogs about P, but he inserts one oblique comment in the last sentence of his current post. curiousfarmer.com
Posted by Brad on January 2, 2012 at 5:04 am | permalink |
Therapy doesn't resolve everything immediately. Life takes work and commitment. Walking away doesn't solve the underlying problems for either party. Sticking in and trying can, over time, bring some resolution to some problems but it isn't immediate.
Posted by Kusandra on January 2, 2012 at 10:05 am | permalink |
I noticed that too.
Posted by Pen on January 2, 2012 at 5:57 pm | permalink |
Oh, God, Penelope. I feel so sad for you, because I really think this post is so completely missing the point.
Yes, there are always two sides to a story; yes, in relationships where one partner is violent to the other, the non-violent partner may have done things to "incite" the violence.
It doesn't matter whose "fault" it is. Not even slightly. What matters is that this relationship has become terrible and destructive. If you do these bad things to the farmer, so bad that he HAS to hit you, then that is a signal to leave the relationship yourself, to recognise that the two of you might be good people individually, but you are no good to each other.
I really think some of this is the narrowness and rigidity of your Asperger's view, Penelope. I've seen it in your homeschooling thing – you cling to the statistic of "all other things being equal, kids do better homeschooled", without ever seeming to wonder what negative effect it might have on your kids that YOU are desperately miserable homeschooling them. Sure, their needs are important, but SO ARE YOURS. What I think this post boils down to is that deep down, you don't believe your needs matter, and you've created elaborate rationalisations of why it's OK for you to stay. ("CPS won't remove a child with 2 bruises because they know it's better if the parents can change"? Dear God, even you can't really believe that.)
And since you love studies and statistics: even after treatment, does violence in a relationship stop?
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272735803001119
http://www.respect.uk.net/pages/can-abusers-change.html
Mostly, no. And it's sure as hell not going to stop while he's still blaming you for being "impossible to live with".
I can't read any more. Good luck.
Posted by Sarahnova on January 2, 2012 at 5:03 am | permalink |
"People like that I say because I show them how they can fix anything when they take responsibility for fixing it. That's what I truly believe.
And that's why I'm staying with the Farmer."
Ah, that's well and good. But does the farmer believe the same?
Posted by lcn on January 2, 2012 at 6:34 am | permalink |
I get what you're saying. I saw my dad hit my mom a few times during their crazy marriage. It wasn't like he came home and punched her because dinner wasn't ready. Nope, they were screaming things at eat other. She was working hard to push his buttons, practically daring him to do it. Getting in his face until he exploded.
Of course it wasn't right for him to hit his wife. I saw it with my young eyes. But ALL of their fights traumatized me. I saw them break or throw objects that the other one loved. I saw a lot of tears. I cried many tears myself, begging them to stop. Sometimes I cried so much all night long that I didn't have to go to school the next day.
Years later, when they were divorced and I was a teenager, my mom fought with me with the same techniques she used on my dad, pushing all of the same buttons. I admit, I wanted to hit her then, too. Somehow, I didn't. All I know now is that I still love them both but I don't have much respect of their parenting. All of my friends and husband say they are amazed at how good I turned out, considering.
Posted by Sarah on January 2, 2012 at 6:48 am | permalink |
I can't help but think that you're probably the biggest troll blog ever. I think you probably make half this stuff up just to incite responses because it helps keep your blog in peoples minds and mouths. Good work. I feel terrible for your children who are going to grow up misguided and will continue the abuse in their own lives as adults.
Posted by Victoria on January 2, 2012 at 6:57 am | permalink |
I would suggest you re-read the 100s of comments.
What I got out of them wasn't "Poor Penelope is blameless" but rather "this situation is sick. You are the mother of two kids and you don't have the luxury of hanging around trying to 'fix it' while the man you live with beats you up."
Posted by Judy on January 2, 2012 at 7:03 am | permalink |
Hi Penelope,
I owe you a great debt as a writer. I believe I have mentioned this before, but since stumbling upon your blog I have learned to challenge myself to be more open with my writing and to be more objective about its quality.
There is no doubt in my mind that you have the gift, it is rare, and I hope that you will continue to share it with the world for as long as you live.
So I feel that I owe you a debt. I also care. I would like to pay you back as you clearly want and need help and this is the mechanism you have chosen to receive it.
Also, I feel pretty strongly about women's empowerment and women's rights, and I think you are hurting us because you don't fully understand the potential impact of what you are doing. Maybe you think you are preaching personal responsibility, but I think your emotional blind spots make it impossible for you to be objective here.
Why does what you say really matter? Because whether you like it or not, or feel like it or not, you have become a public figure with respect to "advice for women." Both women and men listen to what you say, they consider it. And there is significant potential negative impact to some of the headlines you write:
* When you say "don't report sexual harassment" and things of that nature, there is an impact that you may not have considered when you wrote the post. You meant, hey women, for the sake of your career, don't report it. But did you think that maybe male (or female) harassers would take notes and be encouraged?
* When you say "Zero tolerance for domestic violence is wrong," you mean that victims of violence should consider how they may be provoking it rather than helplessly throwing up their hands. But did you think to yourself that maybe popular culture would twist your words and that you would wind up doing victim-blaming?
In addition, when you exploit yourself – as in posting a revealing picture of your wounded body – you show disdain for yourself. As if you are only worth looking at if there is some exploitation involved – an injury is not enough.
As if a bruise in and of itself is boring. Or worse (the subtext reads) that the bruise is sexy somehow.
I think you posted that photo because your father took inappropriate photos of you as a young woman (you mentioned this in a previous blog post about deciding how transparent to be about your life). In some complicated psychological way you are punishing yourself by repeating the sin he committed against you, but this time with the illusion of control. Just like a prostitute who joins the profession after having been raped as a child.
But the outcome for other women, when you do something like that, is bad. You make violence seem somehow sexy and exciting and controlled. You hurt victims and potential victims too. So again, bad outcome.
Here is the advice part. Like I said, you are a gift to me personally. I follow your blog and see you have helped so many others. You are a worthy person and clearly a loving mother and wife who wants to do good. So here are some suggestions for you. I am going to post all this on my blog because I hope that other women will read it too:
1. Think 5 years ahead when making current decisions, especially when it comes to the safety of your boys.
Your boys are young right now. What will happen when they become pre-teens, or teens, and rebel, provoke, etc.? Will they be safe if your home is not safe for you?
Also, it would greatly benefit your kids to have a community of friends to turn to, physical or virtual or both. They need support too.
2. What feels familiar to you, and your husband as well, has a tendency to be inappropriate – and particularly when it comes to personal boundaries.
It seems like both of you came from families where the parents were way too involved with the kids, be it physically or emotionally. To you, drama and violence and craziness feel like "normal." So does over-closeness.
On the other hand, normal boundaries, stability, and a certain amount of distance feel like rejection. As you say, "you want to be missed."
Therefore, you absolutely MUST do the opposite of what feels comfortable now. Please get help to create some safe space in this relationship, for you, for your husband, for your kids. And some stability, routines. Think "No Drama Obama." That should be you.
I don't know what the status of the nanny is, but I would get someone to help you full-time to create a calming home environment for the children. You do not have to do everything yourself. And for God's sake, please either live in a separate part of the farm or get your own house. Or even your own bedroom, your own office in the same part of the house where he is. Your "cave."
Think about it: You are on a second marriage, you are bringing in two children who are not his, and he has lived by himself for many years without you. It is OK for you to live in a separate space to give both of you some peace.
Better a little distance than the constant fighting and making up.
The fact that you are counting the time between beatings suggests that it is something you wait for and that is an established part of your life, and that cannot continue.
3. Stop hating yourself.
You said that there was a lot of woman-hating in the reaction to your post. I read the reactions and didn't get that. It seemed like people were on your side. They are on your side. I am on your side. You were HORRIBLY mistreated as a child and maybe that has left you with low self-esteem. Of course! But you have to know, as Joel Osteen says, that YOU ARE A CHILD OF THE MOST HIGH GOD. And that you are worthy of total and unconditional love. Believe me. If you have a predisposition to violence, if you are drawn to violent people, that is an illness that can be healed. But you, yourself, are not bad and never ever think so.
4. Use the blog and other writing projects as an outlet for your desire to provoke. And DO NOT include your husband or kids in the posts anymore.
At heart Penelope you are somewhat of an entertainer. You write the blog as "research" but also to spike our interest. In short you are a writer, you tell a great story. Please, restrict the drama to the blog. And keep your family out of it. Part of what has fueled your current problems is that you're mixing your professional life with your personal one, and they're two separate spheres.
On that subject, remember that your husband is not you. The things you love about him are the things that make him crazy about you. Stop doing those things.
If you are going to get in his face and jump up and down and break lamps over your head – what is really going to be the outcome of that? You do not have to perpetuate the violence that was perpetrated on you. Just let it go.
5. Don't confuse your intellectual ability with emotional skill.
Penelope, you are brilliant. But emotionally you have special challenges. I don't fully understand them because I don't have Asperger's. But I understand that there is a gap between your brain's knowledge of a situation and your heart's desire to do what it wants to do – whether logical or not. This is why you must get competent help in making important life decisions. And not from people who have contributed to your problems!
Overall Penelope – I wish you every good thing on your life's journey. I pray for you and your family, and hope that you all land on your feet. But please also know that your actions affect other people – your sons, your husband, and yes, the people who read your blog and are influenced by it.
Do the right thing for yourself because you are a child of the most high God. Do the right thing for the other people in this world who feel the ripple effects of your decisions. And please get competent advice from a professional as you make these decisions – and take it seriously.
Let us know how you are doing.
Sincerely,
A tremendous fan of your work,
Dannielle Blumenthal
Posted by Dannielle Blumenthal on January 2, 2012 at 7:17 am | permalink |
Clap……clap……clap…….
Clever Girl.
Posted by Razmataz on January 2, 2012 at 7:32 am | permalink |
Penelope,
Your reasoning in this post is impeccable. You sometimes seem concerned about your need for structure, as Asperger's folks often are. Nevertheless, when you write you seem to be capable of taking hugely broad perspectives on things. This is a great example. Commentators who react to other people's situations on the basis of assumptions rarely have the information or insights necessary to do so. I trust you to make good decisions on the basis of your agonizing thought processes. At least you have thought processes!
Posted by grandysman on January 2, 2012 at 7:40 am | permalink |
Pen, I get it now. You enjoy the attention.
Your last photo could have been of the small bruise on your thigh, but was of your buttocks with no underwear in sight (What the hell was that?), and I see that your intent was to provoke your readership (Huge success there.) and to construct a springboard for your Next Big Idea: It's OK, The Farmer Will Fix Me. Or, in the words of the bad boyfriend from Bridget Jones Diary, "If I can't make it with you, I can't make it with anybody." Yeah, right. Let me know how that works out for you.
The farmer is not a wife beater, you're not in danger of your life and neither is he, but your arguments end in slapping and pushing. Even if you are the most annoying people in the world, no one is supposed to be slapping and pushing in anger more than once. Not you, not the farmer. What are you telling your kids? How old do they have to be to have unsupervised access to the internet? Is that why you home school, to guard access, so they don't see all the things you write about your volatile relationship? Listen to all the times you broke up, there was a pattern, wasn't there? Love isn't enough.
Posted by rhode reader on January 2, 2012 at 7:42 am | permalink |
Sigh. Well, try hard Penelope. Trying hard not to be so 'bad' and not to incite Farmer's anger will be like a boa constricter around your neck. Eventually, when you can't breathe, you will realize you can NEVER change yourself enough to stop Farmer from using violence when HE makes the decision to do so. Staying is a choice though, just as leaving is a choice, and it is one you have to make for yourself. You try to teach people about start-ups, but you don't want to be taught about domestic violence since you witnessed it as a kid and know it all apparently.
Many of the comments you received were from people, like me, that were once in violent relationships. Looking back, you realize you SHOULD have left after the first hit. But, most women "leave" seven to eight times, most woment try to change themselves, most women try counseling before reaching the realization it really isn't there fault.
You write a great blog but right here right now, you are nothing special and you relationship with farmer is nothing special and there is nothing unique in the cycle of violence you are describing. YOU are a boring predictable STATISTIC. Just like I was. And there is nothing you did that makes you DESERVE to be hit.
Posted by JMDM on January 2, 2012 at 7:46 am | permalink |
I remember reading something like that in Penelope's past blogs. I found it to be something useful to think about. She said that everyone thinks they're a unique special case, or exception (and so X does not apply to them), only …. it's not true and is unproductive thinking (that was her thesis as I understood it).
Posted by Pen on January 2, 2012 at 6:06 pm | permalink |
Good on you Penelope. Just because the signs of physical violence are more obvious doesn't make it worse.
Posted by Anon on January 2, 2012 at 7:50 am | permalink |
I fully understand what you've written here.
People who have never experienced any of this may have difficulty relating, and may think that people like your mother, me (and maybe you) are just mad/crazy people, which one should avoid. But are we?
People who 'know' me have no idea what happens behind closed doors. They will have experienced joy/kindness from their interaction with me. They would be very very surprised if someone would tell them I can get really really angry.
I seem to be the average, intelligent, kind 'girl' next door. And actually I am … or at least I feel I am – (and so does my partner in life – who always compliments me on my loving and caring nature).
It is just that sometimes I portray the same type of behaviour your mum used to. Maybe on a slightly less destructive level, but nevertheless sometimes I just lose it. Really lose it.
I wouldn't really physically hurt anyone (severely) in that state, but would definitely display some very violent and destructive, hysteric behaviour, which in the past has led to my partner having to defend himself in some way physically (which may have in turn hurt/bruised me physically), or him just losing it as well, due to being mentally pushed over the edge by my behaviour.
It has ended up (on occasion) with me being bruised, but really that was indeed my fault. It really was.
BTW: I am in my late 30's – and chosen not to have children yet because of this.
Though I still don't fully have it under control, I must say I am much less out of control now, than I was some years ago. So in a way there is some improvement. It is possible to change.
It is very very hard though to really change your behaviour, even when you are aware of what you are doing.
It is that split-second moment when I should make that decision/choice to remain calm, that I just zap passed and in a blink of an eye I turn into the incredible hulk, with yelling and shouting to match.
Though possibly the biggest part of change has to be made by you, a supportive husband and environment to match really can help a lot.
I do feel there is a road back to making it work, but it will only be possible (in my view) for you to change if you make a tremendous effort on your part, and if your husband can search to find the patience, and if he still has the desire to also make an effort to support you in your journey, and to work on himself at the same time.
Please, don't feel alone or discouraged by some of the comments you've received on your posts.
As with many things in life, we're often quick to judge when we've not experienced something ourselves.
Hugs,
B
Posted by B on January 2, 2012 at 7:54 am | permalink |
You are so 100% right. Thinking "it's not my fault" is so common, and then many women will go on to create a second, third, fourth relationship that's exactly same. And they will always feel like a victim their whole life. And there's nothing worse than feeling like a victim.
Anytime someone has a problem in life, no matter what the nature, the first question should always be, how did I contribute to this problem, how did I manifest this?
And if it's happening to your family – it is MOST CERTAINLY your problem. Your family, your problem. You don't just get to UN-family with people who do things you don't like. I think everyone reading your blog can relate to that on one level or another.
Whether or not any reader would stay with the farmer or leave him is not appropriate advice because I'm assuming that 99% of us have never met you. Appropriate advice will come from your friends and maybe your marriage counselor – if you like the counselor.
Bravo on always being brave enough to post your opinion, even if it is not always the popular opinion!
Posted by Sarah on January 2, 2012 at 8:03 am | permalink |
If you were on a deserted island, who would you be?
Forget all the "whats" that you've decided describe you. WHO are you? What qualities are intrinsic despite your environment?
Posted by Maureen on January 2, 2012 at 8:05 am | permalink |
I am not even going to read all the comments. Because I am just so happy to read your post. I read the bruise post and it's comments. And was horrified. How could the collective reaction so easily be "leave" – I presume these people have never had complicated relationship or had to leave someone that, despite loving that person, required leaving. It isn't easy. And you told us you had a bruise from the bed. Well, I can think of nearly a zillion times that I've precipitated a push during the argument. I knew there had to be more than you are telling us. Congratulations on sorting some of this out for yourself and letting us see that. And please don't leave…yet. Certainly, there may come a time to do so. But work on your collective issues. Together. And see how that goes for awhile.
Posted by Bethany on January 2, 2012 at 8:28 am | permalink |
It's amazing to me reading these comments how much people love to be on their high horse. Penelope, you write about the violence, but you also write about the love. The love between you and the farmer, the love between the farmer and your boys. You'll figure out whats best for you all. You are aware, and as self-analytical as you can be- but above all you admit you aren't perfect. Embracing your flaws and working towards personal growth is the only way to evolve. You only have one life. Make it what you want. Stay present, keep your eye on the goal. I know you volley back and forth between wanting a happy life and an interesting life and clearly you swing drastically between the two. I hope 2012 finds a happy medium for you and your family. I've been married for 7 years, and there are times it's so hard. I only have one bit of advice for you both: don't agree to a rule between the two of you if you can't follow it. If you agree to give the farmer space during a fight, and you can't do it, don't make it a rule. It makes a bad situation worse when you think you have ground rules, then they don't get followed. The same goes for him- if he promises to follow a rule, then renegs, it creates a perfect storm where rationality and logic cannot exist.
Best of luck to you all.
Posted by MHug on January 2, 2012 at 8:39 am | permalink |
I think the critical piece in this post is not that you decided to stay but that you think you can fix your relationship by changing yourself. Its great that you're willing to do the hard work of changing. I do think that people from violent childhoods can create violence in their adult lives — it takes a lot of work to understand your triggers and then to understand that you need to train yourself into new responses to those triggers. But we all have triggers, violent or not, and the farmer MUST do the work too. Is he willing? Is he on the same page as you?
I went through a similar situation as you. It took me a few years to feel I had truly taken responsibility and taught myself how to take ownership for the ways I was reacting. But in the end, my partner was still doing crappy thing, like ignoring me when I needed to talk about something. The final piece of our relationship getting to the awesome place it is now was him taking responsibility as well. He was stubborn about it because I was so willing to take responsibility myself, I became a bit of a scaegoat for our problems. It took me leaving him for him to realize that it does take two and he needed to step up or he would lose me. We we're separated for three months and we've been back together for a year now. Our relationship has never been better.
My point is, I think you've articulated a great approach. But its an approach that the farmer also needs to be on board with.
Good luck! You're strong and I look forward to reading about how it goes.
Posted by vivica on January 2, 2012 at 8:42 am | permalink |
I think what you've articulated truly is" breaking the cycle". Leaving only fixes your current situation. If you leave, there's no telling whether you'll end up in another violent relationship or not. You need to address the root if the problem. That's truly how you break a cycle.
Posted by vivica on January 2, 2012 at 8:53 am | permalink |
P: Even if you learn to train yourself to not harrange The Farmer in order to get some positive attention from him, what happens then?
Will you simply turn your pain/frustration/lonliness back onto yourself, causing self-injury (via a table lamp or a knife into your head)?
Irrespective of whether you continue to stay with The Farmer, what healthy coping mechanisms do you have in place to respond to future painful/stressful situations in your life ?
Posted by lb on January 2, 2012 at 8:50 am | permalink |
Penelope
I have to say that I understand completely where you're coming from on this issue. I am in a relationship with my kid's father who at times has been physically/verbally abusive to me. Not the come home mad from work and take it out on me with a punch to the face type. We have two completely different frames of reference for things. He can't understand me. I can't understand him. He doesn't agree with me. I don't agree with him. We always end up in heated arguments. Sometimes these arguments lead to physical abuse. At times I have blamed myself because I know that if I just be quiet and not insist on having my opinion heard then it wouldn't have happened. Then part of me says that it doesn't really matter who is at fault…no one has the right to be violent with someone else unless it's self-defense.
There are too many complexities in each case for it to always be a "LEAVE RIGHT NOW!" decision. I don't believe that my kids would be better without both of us in their lives. Things have gotten better because I've learned to think before I speak. I ask myself "is this a situation where it's REALLY necessary that my opinion be known?" Usually, it's not, so I've learned to let it go and not obsess over whether or not I'm teaching my daughters to be floor mats or my son to think that it's ok to treat women this way. They see me keep my head up and keep going and treating someone who is difficult for me to deal with in a respectful manner. They see me trying to give them as much of a stimulating, learning environment as possible. They see me struggling to keep our family together. I ALWAYS emphasize to them that it's a problem between their father and I that it has nothing to do with them. That they, are the best things in our life.
I do not think women who stay are always weak. In fact, unless you've been through it you have no idea how strong a woman has to be to stay and make the best out of a situation until it's time to change. Even though I stay I know I have options…if I choose to take them. This doesn't mean that I think it's ok for Scrooge (the nickname I use on my blog for my kid's father) to hurt me….verbally or physically.
I can't tell the times I've myself left to stay in a hotel for a day or week to just let things cool off. I sometimes really love and hate him at the same time at different times. It's a difficult situation to be in. Even though I know the statistics are that the violence will escalate until I'm dead, I just don't think the answer is always in black or white.
Sister Sister
Posted by Sister Sister on January 2, 2012 at 9:24 am | permalink |
True Love Without Expectations
http://bit.ly/rI7RuB
Posted by ReportingLife on January 2, 2012 at 9:41 am | permalink |
I agree with you, but with careful qualifications. You must be extremely self-aware to be good at assessing this. I was with an ACTUALLY abusive partner before and we had to split. He was very violent and irrational. With my current partner, if I had a truly "zero tolerance" policy on this, we'd be split, but I am glad we are not because he is a good man and very much worth it. Now, if partners are having an argument and the woman does something completely egregious or even hits the man, is he really supposed to just take it, just because he's the man? Sometimes, in relationships, things get heated. What really matters is are these isolated incidences and what is each person's role in it. I agree that the woman is not always blameless. It's not a popular POV and it's easier to spout out "zero tolerance" but I think most situations in life don't have absolute answers of formulas to them.
Posted by Gretchen on January 2, 2012 at 9:46 am | permalink |
zero tolerance goes both ways: if a man hits a woman and if a woman hits a man. Maybe I am naive but I don't think violence should be part of a normal everyday live communication. Sure, there are exceptional situation, completely out of the ordinary, and I am not beyond forgiveness, but if two people cannot live together without resorting to violence that is wrong to me. It takes strength to stay and to leave, and I don't subscribe to the view that someone who stays is weak. But is it right that one person has to completely moderate opinions just for not triggering an outburst? I personally feel that violence is the end of communication rather then an integral part of it.
Posted by redrock on January 2, 2012 at 10:19 am | permalink |
You wrote:
I don't think violence should be part of a normal everyday live communication. Sure, there are exceptional situation, completely out of the ordinary, and I am not beyond forgiveness, but if two people cannot live together without resorting to violence that is wrong to me. . . . . I personally feel that violence is the end of communication rather then an integral part of it.
Thank you for this–your comment packs a lot of wisdom, in my view. It is the voice of moderation and the voice of reason.
Posted by chris on January 3, 2012 at 12:27 am | permalink |
What's wrong, or rather pointless & sometimes counterproductive, is not so much zero or other tolerance levels, as telling women in violent relationships what they need to do in your opinion, as if they simply need to see things the "right" way, ie agree with your superior insight. It isn't easy either to leave these situations, or to resolve them without leaving, and often the skills needed are the same, and are not there. When the threat is extreme, leaving actually raises the likelihood of someone being killed, for instance.
When the problem is emotional conflict between the spouses, as opposed to spontaneous attacks on one partner by the other (eg coming home drunk and violent) it is genuinely possible for either partner to end that conflict, and these are situations that would not have been regarded as abuser/ victim in the past; right or wrong morally, the question is about what can be done, and women have a right to make their own choices within certain non-absolutist boundaries.
I've tried to say this before in other posts, Penelope, but in complex personal situations like family choices, everything in life is not really about what is right or wrong generally. Individuals ARE often exceptions to rules, for many reasons- there is no study where every single person was part of the main group. And what this means in reality is that we have to make our own assessment and choices for our own lives, which is where the personal responsibility comes in, knowing we might be wrong. But that's OK because as long as we're making the effort to learn and improve, we'll find out and make changes later. I think you get this, but it doesn't always shine right through the moral argument of the post.
Anyway, I do hope you succeed in making the changes you need and want in 2012, wishing you all the best.
Posted by Alice Bachini-Smith on January 2, 2012 at 10:33 am | permalink |
It's also really striking how dumb and naive we mostly are on this issue. This idea that you can solve all problems by simply walking away from them must be perpetuating a lot of violence in a lot of people's lives, because it doesn't work- unless you get to the bottom of things, you'll just find it showing up again next time round.
Posted by Alice Bachini-Smith on January 2, 2012 at 10:43 am | permalink |
" This idea that you can solve all problems by simply walking away …"
Who's saying this? I think it's abundantly clear to everyone that PT has an abundance of problems, virtually none of which will be solved by walking away.
She has ONE problem that will be solved by walking her away: if she leaves the Farmer, the Farmer will no longer be violent towards her. Period. The risk that she will end up in the hospital – or the morgue – because of something the Farmer does to her will drop to zero.
Now she could certainly move on to find a new man who is violent. I think it likely that she will. But at least she'll have a chance of being in a non-violent relationship, or of being in no relationship. While she stays with the Farmer, she has zero chance of being in a non-violent relationship or in no relationship.
Her instability, pursuit of drama at the expense of happiness, refusal to provide a safe and stable home for her sons, promiscuity, self-harm, narcissism, out of control temper, tons of baggage from an abusive childhood, inability to perceive reality etc will all remain whether or not she stays with the Farmer. But she will have all these problems while being in a violent relationship, which is, no matter how you slice it, worse than having all these problems while being in a non-violent relationship, or no relationship.
Penelope is a damaged, wounded person, and she's in her mid-40s – the smart money says she won't change. But there is no scenario in which she or her sons are better off in a violent relationship.
And the Farmer – he might be a genuinely decent guy who sometimes does troubling things because he can't cope with reality (as it involved PT? Have other girlfriends been beaten up? Is this why he had no long term relationships before?) but, if you're reading this Farmer, don't YOU want to be in a relationship that doesn't involve violence, or even no relationship?
Posted by Can't stop watching on January 2, 2012 at 11:02 am | permalink |
She has ONE problem that will be solved by walking her away: if she leaves the Farmer, the Farmer will no longer be violent towards her. Period. The risk that she will end up in the hospital â or the morgue â because of something the Farmer does to her will drop to zero.
In the most respectable way possible…this simply isn't true…there have been many many reports, studies, and statistics put out there…check almost any credible source on domestic violence…they will say that someone may be in even greater danger when leaving an abusive relationship. In fact, if you ever need to seek help at a domestic violence shelter or the police they will warn you to be VERY cautious now because you could be at a greater danger. This is the very reason many shelters locations are kept as secret as possible…and the security at most of them is extremely high because of the increase in danger after leaving a situation. This isn't true in ALL cases but according to the experts it is true in lots of cases.
Again…I mean this in the most respectful tone.
Posted by Sister Sister on January 2, 2012 at 12:35 pm | permalink |
SisterSister – you are absolutely correct, and thank you for saying that, because it's true and important. When she is no longer with the Farmer, there is no chance that he will beat her, so that's one problem solved. But you are completely correct, the process of leaving can be the most dangerous phase of the entire relationship.
If I had to guess, the Farmer isn't the type who would stalk her and assault her because she left him. (He seems genuinely to want her out of his life from when they first started dating, but that's another discussion.) But it is always a good idea to have a plan to protect yourself, and yes, leaving is a dangerous action even though it leads in time to a much, much safer life.
Thank you again.
Posted by Can't stop watching on January 2, 2012 at 4:24 pm | permalink |
You're confusing step 1 with all the steps.
If you are addicted, dry out. Then you start the work. Fixing relationship violence while in the relationship is possible, but unlikely, like stopping alcoholism while drinking. Some people do but most don't.
Leaving someone is not the same as denying responsibility. You can leave and take responsibility. Sometimes leaving *is* taking responsibility.
Posted by Shandra on January 2, 2012 at 11:02 am | permalink |
i agree with personal responsibility. and this post is pertinent.
Posted by Oana on January 2, 2012 at 10:50 am | permalink |
For those of you saying "I get it; I've provoked that response" I'm genuinely curious…what makes you think those of us who have NOT been hit or shoved hard enough into something to get a welt like that are so different? Do you think everyone whose relationship is non-violent is that way because there's never been a good enough argument?
I went through a really crazy, trauma-based period of two years about a decade ago (pre-therapy). Sometimes I did corner my husband. He didn't engage. There are alternatives. If it were the Farmer posting I would also say the same: you may think this relationship is the one that will somehow not escalate, where love will somehow be enough, but as a reader I just don't see the basis for that belief. It's not pragmatic. Pragmatic would be a house down the road or on the farm; live separately, let the kids roam back and forth, have sex now and then; work on your issues as single but dating people. Or something,
The trend is worse, not better – which may be a function of the blog and not reality, sure; we all comment based only on that.
Posted by Shandra on January 2, 2012 at 10:56 am | permalink |
Hi Penelope:
If you believe that you have provoked the farmer, that he had a right to lose his temper and strike you, why are you with him?
You're intimating that you are abusing him by provoking him, as your mother did your father.
Even by that logic, you're both still abusing each other. You believe that you are starting it; but you are both participating in hurting each other. It may be a familiar pattern for you both to traverse, given your upbringings, but it seems highly unlikely that you will be able to resolve this conflict.
In any case, is it actually worthwhile to put the work into resolving the conflict when it has infected the relationship so deeply? Relationships do not need to be this difficult, and there is no glory in trying to make a rotten one work.
The real hard work comes from breaking out of seemingly set patterns and real change of destructive habits. Usually, you need to be by yourself to work on changing your behavior, otherwise it's far too easy to revert to a well-worn, familiar pattern.
I wish you both realization and luck in moving forward, hopefully not together.
Posted by k on January 2, 2012 at 11:05 am | permalink |
P,
I completely agree with your aversion to high-and-mightiness and it's irritating that blog comments lend itself to that. I am trying really hard this year to practice your Tip 4 to being likable and eliminate all judgments (or at the very least, spewing judgments out loud).
I'm very sorry for your ongoing emotional trauma though, and without shaking my finger or feeling any "shoulds" about it, I just personally hope that you and your son figure out a safe compromise. Maybe you get an independent space for yourselves still nearby enough to see Farmer when you want to, and leave when you don't. It's a farm. Can you and Farmer just be neighbors instead of roomies?
Posted by Lara on January 2, 2012 at 11:05 am | permalink |
Thanks for answering my question why are you REALLY not leaving. It has nothing to do with wanting to be missed.
This seems more honest. At the same time it's manipulative. First you push your reader's buttons to want to protect you by urging you to leave and saying endlessly how wonderful you are, when it's really apparent that you are wonderful AND a complete ass. Now you make them twist to say "Yeah! Never thought of it that way!! You are so wonderful."
But you are also an ass, which is sort of your point. And it's abundantly clear how you could provoke The Farmer. Or anyone, really.
But mainly I think you are a very shrewd exhibitionist. I bet not many of your readers will have zero tolerance for your manipulations, which are sort of abusive when you think about it.
Marketing in a nutshell, eh?
Posted by Chris McLaughlin on January 2, 2012 at 11:23 am | permalink |
You are amazing, Penelope! Keep going, you're headed in the right direction! You've got this. I'm rooting for you. xo
Posted by JSJ on January 2, 2012 at 11:36 am | permalink |
I'm sorry you are having such a hard time. A couple of points off the top of my head:
I don't know who said it but I read a quote once that really resonated with me. "You teach people how to treat you." So, so true.
You and the farmer clearly want to be together but cannot live together 24/7. My suggestion would be side by side houses so that he has somewhere to go when he's tired of dealing with you. You should not have a key. This is probably not financially feasible but I think separate spaces will be an essential component of saving this relationship.
Best of luck to you both.
Posted by Karen on January 2, 2012 at 11:41 am | permalink |
Funny quote from the Farmer's most recent blog post: "…anyone with common sense knows a blog may not accurately describe reality."
Posted by Anna on January 2, 2012 at 11:43 am | permalink |
Love it, Anna. Funny though, when I bring this up, it keeps getting deleted……..
Posted by Laughing Out Loud on January 5, 2012 at 11:00 pm | permalink |
I couldn't agree more, Penelope. We are responsible for the kind of behavior and treatment we elicit from others. ALWAYS!!
Posted by Parul Bhargava on January 2, 2012 at 11:51 am | permalink |
What you are seeing are knee jerk, politicly correct responces to a complicated problem.Do what your conciense and heart dictate.Good luck.
Posted by Bob Carocari on January 2, 2012 at 12:01 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
When I walked into therapy as a 26-yr-old and the therapist asked if my father had been abusive, I said, "No! . . . Well, he did bruise my mom's face several times and broke her glasses, but she started it." I was surprised by the therapist's response. I was only repeating what my mom had said for years when she spoke of the episodes.
Now I tour a play about a child growing up with domestic violence. The play is really about parents teaching the family system of denial and self-delusion to their kid. When I perform at colleges, I tell students that if I had seen this play as a college student, I would have thought it had nothing to do with my life or my family.
It took doing research for my play for me to realize that my dad fit the typical profile of an abuser. My dad needed control and he had a way of pushing people to do or say things that he then used as justification for venting his emotions in violence. Then he re-defined his violence as "loving parenting", "biblical leadership in the home", or "self defense" . . . . He only left bruises occasionally — just enough to maintain a credible threat of violence — just enough to keep us scared. And he managed to go the the grave claiming to have been victimized by my mother and misunderstood by us all.
From reading your blog, it's clear you understand that self-delusion is what keeps dysfunctional systems going. We children of abusive families are so good at self-delusion because we were trained in it from infancy. My ability to deceive myself to avoid making hard choices — even now — stuns me. This is the basis of co-dependency.
I encourage you to keep a healthy respect for this phenomenon as you make choices for yourself and kids. Space helps with clear thinking. It's possible to live separately while trying to build new patterns in a co-dependent or out-of-balance marriage (if your partner will tolerate this space and wants to maintain the relationship).
I have found this article on how self-delusion works very interesting as well: http://www.cleanlanguage.co.uk/articles/articles/27/1/Self-Deception-Delusion-and-Denial/Page1.html
Good luck, Penelope. I find your blog stunning. I relate to it on many levels.
Susan
Posted by susan on January 2, 2012 at 12:06 pm | permalink |
Some types of domestic violence are more hurtful than others. Cutting someone deeply with a knife, for example, is worse than a slap. So: Would you agree to zero tolerance for violence that leads to such injuries as broken bones or knife wounds? Or is your focus entirely on the person who–in your theory–invites the violence?
Posted by Murray Suid on January 2, 2012 at 12:31 pm | permalink |
There are a lot of women out there getting beaten up in their homes by someone they love, and among them there are many who don't throw paint, who don't knock over furniture, who don't kick people.
Once, my ex-husband's explanation for an attack that lasted three days and ended in the hospital was because I had said the snow was "so beautiful," and that annoyed him, and afterward even he couldn't remember why. There are a lot of women getting hurt who aren't knocking over furniture, or starting fights, or whatever. There are a lot of them. And they hear the same messages from society that you hear. They read the same blog comments. You're right about how strangely vicious society's attitude towards abused women is. They act like we are stupid and insane. "Just world hypothesis," and what not. It makes them feel safer to think that we are insane, and it makes them feel good to imagine that everything is clear and easy. I agree with you that it isn't clear and it isn't easy.
But I disagree with what you have done here with this post. Because those women out there who are not knocking over furniture—they are still getting beaten, and they are still feeling alone and disapproved of by the society that ought to offer them support. They are blaming themselves, because blaming themselves keeps them from feeling powerless. Blaming themselves is the only way they can feel hopeful about the future, about change.
They are already blaming themselves, whether or not they are the kind of women you describe, who knock over furniture. This post could exacerbate that terrible dangerous tendency that some abused women have. You are writing things that they will probably interpret as telling them that they are right, that it is their fault, that they should stay (they do desperately want to stay). Blaming yourself allows you to stay. The way lots of messages from society stigmatize abused women also encourages them to blame themselves, which means they continue getting hurt.
I am not specifically talking about you. I care about you, and I hope you will eventually leave, and I think you need to come to that choice on your own. But I also hope you will be aware of your celebrity and the influence it confers.
Not every situation is like your parents' situation. Lots of violence is not so provoked. But every regularly abused woman has believed it is her fault. And society, as you point out, makes her feel worse, not better, so she is afraid to do what you have done, and talk about it, or seek help. I am worried about everything I see or read about abuse, because I remember how these things affected me when I was in that situation, and I am afraid for other women, who are vulnerable to suggestions that they are to blame and thus have power to makes things better–something that is often a very dangerous illusion. I don't like what this post might say to them. So many women already blame themselves, and stay, and get hurt worse.
Posted by inomhe on January 2, 2012 at 12:56 pm | permalink |
Here is what we did. We went to counseling and tried harder to communicate what we needed – learned some new ways to communicate. We also decided to understand that we had short tempers and that in some or any situation we needed to be able to leave and cool down.
So now if we are having an argument and my wife is driving me crazy with something and I feel like I am going to boil over I tell her that and we stop the discussion right there. Also either of us can leave at any time and we understand that we are not leaving for good, just to cool down. Also when one of us is gone we can talk on the phone which also makes it easy to "leave" (hang up) again or discuss something without it blowing up into something huge.
In your mother's situation you mentioned, it certainly could have been possible for either person to reduce the violence – you father could have just left for example. I suspect your mom had a reason for throwing the paint etc as well and she could have left before that happened. Feeling free to leave the situation before it gets worse is a key way to reduce escalating anger and violence. I just don't think all leaving has to be permanent – leave before the violence starts at a micro level.
Posted by Jason on January 2, 2012 at 12:58 pm | permalink |
I think it is good that you have found a way to step out of the situation. As I read through these comments I have to wonder why some couples find so much to fight about. Why are you together?
Posted by Nelly on January 2, 2012 at 5:13 pm | permalink |
I was terrified of getting married. I was 21. Then i got married. then i came to the conclusion that marriage can survive anything, even cheating, but abuse.
After i read your post on abuse i was heartbroken. i commented under jezebel's article about you. and then i bought Carre Otis memoir for my kindle and have been reading it like a hungry wolf.
My goodness! it has helped me understand the issue of domestic violence so much!
it inspires so much hope in me when i read that you will try to work it out with the farmer. i really don't know him. and hopefully he is the kind of guy that wants to work it out and doesn't think it's okay to be violent.
i don't have anything to advice because i don't know the whole situation.
I work with someone that stayed married through 12 years of drug addiction in her husband, then he recovered, then they are still working through their marriage. I was stunned.
how can that be? and she's strong. she's okay!
maybe we've been sold a very wrong story of domestic violence all along. then we just can't be helpful when we come across these situations.
sure, maybe you need to live in a hotel for a month. but that doesn't mean leaving the farmer.
i'm dumbfounded of how we make super strong comments on situations that we are completely ignorant of!
Posted by karelys on January 2, 2012 at 1:02 pm | permalink |
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you. Even if it was your behavior that lit the fuse, there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Slapping a hysterical person is not the same as "abuse." If you are experiencing violence from your husband on multiple occasions, you need to leave. It is NOT OKAY, in my opinion, to teach your sons that violence is acceptable. One day they will be men and that either dole out the violence themselves "because she made me do it" or fall for some abusive women who will kill their self esteem.
Posted by Carina on January 2, 2012 at 1:07 pm | permalink |
I'm sorry, Penelope but that is BS. It can still NOT be your fault (it isn't) because everyone has the choice not to be violent no matter what ANYONE does. Just look at civil disobedience methods-no matter what anyone does to you, you are NEVER violent. It's called self-control.
That doesn't mean you can't improve yourself and improve relationships. I can't imagine anyone saying that. But it's much easier to do that when you're not with someone who is being violent to you. At least take a break from the relationship and work on yourself.
Posted by Anoel on January 2, 2012 at 1:09 pm | permalink |
If it were just you who you were subjecting to this relationship, I could understand and ignore the fact that you want to try and change and make the relationship work.
BUT hyou have children! You are subjecting them to this – teaching them that this is ok?!
It is your responsibility as a parent to keep your kids safe.
This is not ok.
Posted by jane on January 2, 2012 at 1:15 pm | permalink |
if this is the level of manipulation you are comfortable employing on your audience, I can't imagine what you aim at 'the farmer". Stunning. And deeply screwed up.
Posted by satchmo on January 2, 2012 at 2:11 pm | permalink |
Plagerized & extracted directly from the 2Jan Carolyn Hax column in the WashPost:
"You've agreed to be treated indifferently [also insert "violently"; "callously"] by someone for, apparently, a pretty long time. Please find out â and fix â the underlying reason for that, because the first thing you bring to a relationship and the last thing you have to count on when it goes wrong is: You. That's it. Make sure you're able to see yourself as a person you can count on in the clutch."
Hax's very wise words can be applied to PT's situation – as well as to all of us readers out here in the ether ….
Posted by lb on January 2, 2012 at 2:18 pm | permalink |
You both knew what you were before you tied the knot. The smart person learns from their mistakes. The wise person learns from others mistakes. If your not married take heed. May all this pass quickly for the both of you.
Posted by fred doe on January 2, 2012 at 2:44 pm | permalink |
You are right in saying that you play a role in this relationship and obviously you therefore play a role in what happens in this relationship. As you've documented on this blog, you also have a pretty terrible personal history when it comes to violence (what you witnessed between your parents and what was perpetrated on you at a young age). It is therefore, not surprising that you would view your current relationship as tenable and something that can be worked on.
I'd like to provide you with a different perspective. I have worked as a domestic violence counselor and rape victims' advocate for many years. I have co-facilitated a support group for women who had their children taken away from them because they refused to leave an abusive relationship. As terrible as that probably sounds to you (and it is pretty terrible because the foster system is no place for any child) it's the law because children SHOULD NEVER BE EXPOSED TO VIOLENCE IN THE HOME. The fact that you were is now coloring the way you view the violence in your own home. Do you want your children to grow up thinking it's okay for people who love each other to hit each other?
Your example of the fight between your mother and father seems to me to be an example of two grown people who don't know how to behave in an adult relationship. Your mother was wrong and childish. There were plenty of ways for your father to react but the one he chose (to hit her) was the wrong one.
I encourage you to seek immediate and ongoing professional help. If it were just you, I'd say do what you want and good luck, but you have children in your home and for their sake, you CANNOT think this way. You are damaging their lives and any hope they have for normal, healthy relationships by staying in this situation.
Posted by Jennifer on January 2, 2012 at 2:52 pm | permalink |
Penelope, I'm saying this not out of disdain for you as an abuse victim, but out of concern, frustration, and a sense of urgency:
This is bullshit. I don't care you if you ax-murder is best friend, he STILL doesn't get to hit you.
Posted by Lindsay on January 2, 2012 at 3:02 pm | permalink |
my mother specializes in abused relationships. i have always blamed her for staying in them — thought she was weak, or frightened, or helpless, or something.
thank you for this post. you've given me a way to re-think all that. and you're the first person whose ever done that.
and best of luck to you and your loved ones.
Posted by carole on January 2, 2012 at 3:03 pm | permalink |
Good for you because if you left him for another relationship, the cycle would only repeat itself.
Posted by Concerned Fan on January 2, 2012 at 3:14 pm | permalink |
A few years I was on a road bike ride with a group of guys. All of a sudden the one who was riding beside me starts telling me that he beat up his girlfriend (threw her against the wall) a few days ago because she looked at another guy. He got so mad because she did that that he reacted in this physically violent manner. He indicated that he did not think this was an entirely justified reaction from his side, but he also complained bitterly that she also provoked it by looking at another guy. And now she does not trust him any more. So, in his view, she carried the responsibility for behaving wrong and his reaction, while a little over the top was excusable. And he was surprised that she now was reluctant to trust him again. I personally think there is something wrong in this picture…personal responsibility yes – but on both sides of the equation.
P.S. I don;t know how this story ended, but I nearly rode my bike into an oncoming car because it was pretty upsetting.
Posted by redrock on January 2, 2012 at 3:28 pm | permalink |
trust . . . I wonder if this is what Penelope meant in her original post about the psychology of quitting, when she used the words "neither of us is willing to be vulnerable in a relationship" (quoting the marriage counselor)?
Yes, if trust is gone, the relationship is an empty shell. And if one of the partners doesn't get trust, well, then . . . something very basic is missing in that person's ability to relate and understand relationships at all.
Posted by chris on January 3, 2012 at 1:21 am | permalink |
You will do what you do and what we say won't matter, but you had better not kid yourself that you are thinking about your kids in any way. You are probably an incredibly difficult person to be around and may well do awful, ridiculous things, but that doesn't mean that someone should lose their shit and hit you in response. As someone said, you know that it is not okay to hit your kids even when they make you homicidal.
You are mentally ill and addicted to something – the drama, your own neediness, whatever it is. But if you believe anything anyone tells you, believe this. Your kids see it all and will remember it all. When they are old enough and tired of the hell you have made of their lives, they will leave or distance themselves. Do what you want with your own life, but don't screw theirs' up any more than you have. You had a horrible childhood and I am really surprised that you are not completely focused on giving them a different life than you had. But you aren't. You are using them to feed your own needs. The homeschooling, the living in the car driving everywhere for lessons, the isolation, the jerking them around here and there, the subjecting them to a crazy mother and an abusive stepfather. None of it is good for them.
A couple more points. You really don't have any credibility anymore as a career advice blogger. And your ex-husband is contemptible for allowing the kids to live in this situation.
Posted by Kathy on January 2, 2012 at 3:33 pm | permalink |
What are you doing? I'm not foolish enough to think that anything I say in a blog comment will sway you and your decision. But, I guess you seem to want to all ways. First, you're a victim with a bruise who is "dying". Then, when people care about what happens to you and your children, you think people are being reactionary. You're probably right. You're probably a terrible and hard person to live with. But lots of people are terrible and hard and don't deserve to be hit. But you're in a toxic relationship. You're both totally terrible for each other, right? But your answer can't be "well I'm going to stay because otherwise I'll repeat my pattern with someone else." What? Also, as a frequent reader of your blog, you seem to just decide on an answer and then marshal your evidence to support it. This could pay off big, so site your posts about how hard a VC project is? What about referencing your posts about how people always thing they're the exceptions when they're not (I can do great post law school, I should go to business school)? For all your evidence that children should have two parents, what about all the evidence that crazy toxic relationships create an unstable unhappy life for kids? You don't want to leave because it's hard. Just you should, and you must know that. People aren't rooting against you, really. But if you're giving people a load of BS, they should call you on it. So yes, take personal responsibility and fix yourself. But it seems unlikely you can do that while you're with your husband. Good luck!
Posted by renn on January 2, 2012 at 3:46 pm | permalink |
No man has ever hit me or bruised me.
More, none of the men in my life have ever hit or bruised any woman.
I know that there is nothing my husband could do that would lead me to hit him. I know that there is nothing I could do that would lead my husband to hit me.
For some people physical violence is simply not "in their repertoire" it's just not what comes naturally as reaction to frustration, no matter how extreme. You could find such a person – if you wanted to.
I've always found it ridiculous when commentators would threaten you with CPS and loosing custody etc. You're right that CPS is never going to take kids away in a situation like yours. But that doesn't make it right. I know you're giving your kids a home that is 100% safer and in all ways better then the one you grew up in – but that doesn't mean your relationship with the Farmer is not bad for them.
Do you ever hit your Asperger's child? I think not. Why?
Posted by Victoria on January 2, 2012 at 4:16 pm | permalink |
I am also a big believer in making a marriage work, almost no matter what, for the sake of the children. I am blisteringly socially conservative, and am in general opposed to divorce. My views were formed in part by reading the research that emerged around the time I was pregnant with my first, which showed that kids actually don't care that much, even if their parents are in a high conflict marriage, and are still better off than in a divorce.
Here are two things that are also in that research, that are relevant. They are two of the reasons why I think you should leave the Farmer.
1) all of these works find that children don't much care if their parents fight a lot, *but there is no abuse.* Abuse changes the dynamic. It's right there in all those studies. Also in those studies: even if the parents think the kids don't know about the hitting, it affects them. Whether it's because they actually do know, or because it's just so toxic it still harms them, the reality is that being in a house with DV harms kids. You may try to dismiss this by saying that it wasn't "real" abuse because you provoked it/weren't hospitalized/whatever, but please be intellectually honest enough to acknowledge that the research you cite to support staying actually indicates the opposite. That's the exception to kids being better off with parents together.
2) This research is about children's two original parents staying together. Living with a live in boyfriend in fact increases the risk of abuse of children and is linked with a bunch of negative outcomes. If you were enduring this for the hope and sake of making it work with the boys' actual father, I *might* think "she's taking a risk because she's hoping it will lead to what's best for her kids." Probably not; probably point 1 would still overrule it, and then there's the issue of basic self-respect and self-defense. But it would give me pause for thought.
But none of these works show that it's important to make your current live-in boyfriend stick around forever for the sake of the kids. Best for kids is living with their own married parents (without abuse.) Second best for kids is living with separated parents, in some schedule that gives them time with both (who don't abuse them or each other – anymore if they used to). Third best is marrying someone – for realsies – and making it work. You've been hedging your bets from the start with the Farmer, starting with not really being married.
So none of the facts you cite bear out your logic or support your decision. If you want a healthy marriage then by all means build one with the right guy who will be a good stepfather and example for your kids. But the right guy will never bruise you like that.
Posted by Can't stop watching on January 2, 2012 at 4:39 pm | permalink |
Hear, hear – this comment is spot on.
Penelope's products are her ideas and the socratic freaking beat downs she gives to those who oppose her logic and her data. A fine ENTJ, I've been such a fan.
And that's why her professional credibility is called into question now. It's not about being mean to Penelope. It's about intellectual dishonesty. My judgment is on the merit of her arguments, not on her value as a human.
That she is valuable and lovable is implicit, and many of us additionally carry an implicit value that we will not tolerate a relationship that crushes our talents and energy and productivity via any kind of violence, given we have talents to offer that must be nurtured. A person with Aspergers and a bad family background has a double threat of just clean missing what's both not explicit and not experienced.
So yes, many of us are saying we would walk away not because we "haven't been there," but because we would, and have, walked away. Really. It doesn't go all gray area because it didn't get that far. I absolutely agree that once it does, I don't know the first thing about the kind of guts it takes to summon energy and will to get out.
As a product of an emotionally abusive background (not physically abusive, but emotional abuse did put me at risk for future physical abuse), the way I have sort of recovered was the fake it to make it approach. I observed the relationships of stable, productive people: they are boring to be honest, relative to what I was used to. Loosely speaking here in the interest of length, a long time ago I banked that I would fake one of those boring relationships till I made it. I was lucky enough to find someone I liked and was attracted to who had the characteristics I decided intellectually that I needed, to balance me. I didn't settle and it took a long time and luck to find a person I have an abundance of respect for, and got to know for two years so I knew exactly what I was getting into, of course he's not perfect. It was a huge leap of faith, to bet on something that didn't feel natural, and that's why I won my bet, because I didn't bet on the noisy and damaged part of myself. My relationship has not fed the needs of my demon, I picture my demon in a sealed mason jar in my head where she jumps up and down. My demon just isn't credible in this area (although my gut is straight up super yoda in all others). Over time I have found such sweetness in the actual depth of what appeared to be boredom, and my gut is changing. We love each other. That is what I wish for Penelope. To parent herself, using available models. It's a long term solution to a longstanding problem.
Meantime, Penelope Trunk, you ought to be called on the BS of your post. Your product is suffering. The Penelope Trunk of any other subject matter would go on the radio today and eat you alive on this. Be loyal to the version of you that rocks it. I have unsubscribed to your posts, I am walking away. Trust the real data and get a little humility about your gut here, given its origin. I think you will achieve new heights.
Posted by JB on January 2, 2012 at 6:12 pm | permalink |
While your research may support your view, my experience completely disagrees. I was thankful my parents divorced so that I could live in a peaceful household (it wasn't abusive just angry). I learned from the divorce a tood deal about being an independent woman which I credit to making me a great spouse to my husband of 12 years. This husband by the way grew up in a household with an intact but loveless marriage and he, far more than me, has been negatively impacted by his parents relationship. He looks at my upbringing as the more positive and less dysfunctional and I completely agree. He is looking to the door any time there is a minor confrtontation because he is so terrified of ending up in an unhappy marriage. Thankfully this has improved over the years but this fear remains as his biggest fear in life.
Research ignores the human experience which is varied and complicated. I wouldn't recommend that anyone make major life decisions because the research said it was so. Nor would I recommend that you pass judgment on people that don't fit what you find to be acceptable criteria to leave their spouse. Glad that you would approve of Penelope doing so, I'm sure she will sleep better knowing she has the support of you and the research.
Posted by Amy on January 2, 2012 at 9:29 pm | permalink |
I completely agree, Amy. I lived in your husband's childhood and it is horrible. When I'm in a relationship, I do exactly as your husband does when there is discourse. It is damaging. My parents have been unhappily married for 54 years and I *still* wish they'd divorce. It won't happen but I can't stand being around them. They clearly don't like each other.
People love to make statistics fit their excuses. It gives them the chance to think they are doing the right thing b/c of data versus the looks on their children's or spouses' faces.
I always say: "There are three things you never want to see being made: sausage, legislature and market research." I know this to be true because I was a market researcher and analyst!
Posted by Katherine on January 3, 2012 at 7:24 am | permalink |
Amy, darling, research is true for large populations. It never claims there are no exceptions. Many people who brush their teeth still get cavities, and this does not invalidate the reality that the best way to avoid cavities remains to brush your teeth. Someone who declined to brush their kids' teeth because hey, I know someone who brushed her teeth and still got cavities, would be roundly considered not just irresponsible but dumb.
Look at it this way – you'd probably be less screwed up if your parents had split. And your husband would be more so if his had too. That doesn't mean that he can't be more screwed up than you, just that he's be worse off, and you would be better off, if your parents had valued marriage.
But hey, feel free to spit upon the received wisdom of every culture plus research.
Posted by Can't stop watching on January 3, 2012 at 8:41 am | permalink |
With regards to my spitting on "the received wisdom of every culture plus research": certainly no one has ever heard of research being manipulated to suit the bias of the researchers or the sponsors of said research! If you go into research with a theory already formed, the research will often conclude exactly what you thought you already knew. Much of the research that supports your viewpoint comes from conservative think tanks. A two second Google search will find research that contradicts that which you site. I'm sure research coming from an alternative viewpoint might come from liberal think tanks. My point is that research should be viewed critically and not accepted always at face value.
Additionally, in the culture I live in it's not the accepted wisdom that growing up in a dysfunctional home is preferable for the children than divorce. It's actually a subject of debate and the viewpoints vary greatly. My guess is that you also live in this culture but hey, feel free to disregard the experiences and viewpoints of others because they don't agree with you.
You assumed and judged that I am screwed up because I come from divorced parents (by the way, my mother who didn't "value" marriage, has been in her second marriage for the past 20 years) despite not knowing anything about me and despite your admission that there are exceptions, even to the bible of research you follow. I can safely say that I am no more screwed up than any other average person, including those from in-tact homes. I am successful professionally and personally. I have a happy marriage. I'm college educated. No mental health or behavioral issues. On the downside, I'm obviously very sarcastic and can get rather condescending- not sure that has much to do with a broken home but you know the research so well, you tell me. You seem to have a good deal of that yourself! I'm sure you won't believe any of this about me because you've already made your conclusions but it makes me feel better to put it out there. Oh no, it just occurred to me, I must be insecure because I felt compelled to say all those things to reassure myself that I'm not screwed up- clearly a result of my parents not staying together.
Oh, wait I left out the most important part of my non-screwed up existence. I have healthy social relationships with groups of individuals who both agree and disagree with my belief systems because I believe that diversity leads to a richer life experience. You could stand to be more like meâ¦.friend.
Posted by Amy on January 3, 2012 at 10:05 am | permalink |
Amy, smart people invariably don't end their posts by telling people to be more like them. You might be a genius or you might be a 12 year old with access to Mommy's laptop – I neither know nor care. I have confidence in my ability to approach research critically, being an academic with a CV full of peer reviewed work. I know for a fact that Penelope has the intelligence to take a real look at the research and synthesize it for herself, and am disappointed that she's choosing a lack of intellectual integrity because she can do better. I neither know nor care whether you can do better. End of my discussion with you.
Posted by Can't stop watching on January 3, 2012 at 10:53 am | permalink |
I grew up in an abusive household on a farm in western Wisconsin. I remember when I was in second grade I couldn't wait to go to school each morning to get away from my parent's fighting. I would lay awake at night listening to the yelling worrying my mom would leave again. This was the pattern: a huge fight, my mom would leave my dad, he would say he'd change, she'd move back home, everything would be great for a month or two then there would be another huge explosion. As a child I did think my mom did things to provoke my dad, but even if she did hitting her was never an appropriate response. My mom left my dad for good when my youngest brother turned 18 with the prompting and assistance of one of my sisters. There were six children in my family and most of us have spent some time in therapy. Our therapists have pointed out that our father may have been abusive, but our mother played a role in the abuse as well by not protecting us. Plus, she was so focused on her own drama she wasn't there for us.
So this is what I foresee – another big blowup in a couple of months. You will write another should I stay or should I go post and we will all be right back where we started. You may think your children aren't suffering, but they are. They need a secure home where they do not need to worry their mom is going to get mad at their new dad and they will have to move again. Plus, they can never get away from the tension and have a normal life during the day because you home school them.
Posted by Savvy Working Gal on January 2, 2012 at 4:49 pm | permalink |
I think you're doing victims of domestic violence a disservice to imply that this is somehow your fault or that sometimes the abused person is at fault (even half at fault.) Unless you literally grabbed his arm and made him shove you into that bedpost, it actually isn't your fault, for the simple reason that you don't have agency in *another person's* actions.
So even if you are terrible, it's still not your fault he HIT you. It's just your fault you're terrible. But try this thought experiment: if you were just as terrible to a friend of yours, would he/she hit you? If your kids were as terrible to you as you say you are to The Farmer, would you hit them? Probably not, because your friend's and your response to anger is different.
Even at your best self, you can't expect to never make The Farmer angry again. That's unrealistic for any relationship. And as long as he deals with anger by hitting, that part of your relationship will not change, no matter how much you do.
Posted by Jiggs on January 2, 2012 at 5:02 pm | permalink |
If anyone is reading the story Penolope & The Farmer from the beginning it's obvious that she isn't leaving her husband anytime soon. (I don't really think there are many girls out there who would marry a guy that kept leaving them. Over 50 times or so, as she said he did.)
Even thought I agree with some things P. has said about taking responsibility I don't agree with the way she interprets it. I agree that she must have done something that may be prone to a response from The Farmer, I diverge from her when she assumes it's OK for that response to be violent (physically, verbally or emotionally). But I do think both partners must assume responsibility for their actions toward the other. If P. is herself prone to violent outbursts (or that The Farmers views as such) she must deal with them first and not expect that her partner to deal with them (their own way, violent or not).
Bottom line I don't think your marriage is doing yourself (or The Farmer, or your kids) any good. For a relationship to work a set of other things besides passion (and even love) are required. First thing first: who need to know yourself well.
Even thought I'm not a therapist I would like to leave P. a 'question': Don't you think that your relationship with The Farmer replicates in some ways your former marriage?
(What strikes me most is the apparent (?) lack or miscommunication between he spouses in the two relationships.)
Wish you well, P.
Posted by Maria on January 2, 2012 at 5:03 pm | permalink |
Really, it's OK to forgive, (an important skill in marriage!) and to try again. No, I don't think anyone should be hit or thrown – ever – but no one can make you angrier, hurt you more, or make you more insane than your spouse. In the volatile 20's and 30's, I can't tell you how often I packed up the kids and left. And it turns out that I am lucky – incredibly lucky – that I kept coming back. I hope this works for you. Remind The Farmer that it doesn't work to hit animals – it won't work to hit a person.
Posted by Janet on January 2, 2012 at 5:41 pm | permalink |
My husband left me for another woman. When their relationship ended, he said he wanted me back. Though I have not let him move in my home, we are once again in a relationship and trying to figure things out.
Do you know how many women, when they find out I have let my husband back in my life, talk to me as if I am crazy? Because of my choice not to divorce my husband I have been told that I don't love or respect myself. I have been told that I'm teaching our children bad lessons. These are the same people that jokingly said to me that if their husband cheated on them, they would burn all his things or invest in a good baseball bat. I found their comments more hurtful than helpful.
These black and white responses to betrayal, whether it be physical, sexual, or emotional help no one. Obviously, Penelope does not think she or her kids are in grave danger or she would leave. It is all quite scary, but there are many things in life that are scary and people can get through them. I think her post with the provocative bruise picture was written when she was in shock. Her response was understandable for she had a lot to process. Violence is NEVER the answer, but it need not always end the discussion.
These are complex issues, and they may never be solved, but I think it is worth it to try. Isn't that how we grow? Isn't that what life's about?
Posted by Grace on January 2, 2012 at 5:58 pm | permalink |
"Obviously, Penelope does not think she or her kids are in grave danger or she would leave."
Grace, what on earth has given you the idea that Penelope has that level of judgment, courage, or willingness to stick out a difficult but necessary path?
Posted by Can't stop watching on January 2, 2012 at 6:51 pm | permalink |
Really? Why did she go to the hotel and tell her readers she thought she was dying? Why did she take a picture of her naked self (hopefully she didn't make one of her kids take the photo) with an alleged bruise caused by the farmer throwing her into thier bedpost? Why did she say she thought she needed to stay in a hotel for a month? If she didn't think she was in danger, non of these actions make sense to a rational person. She is now rationalizing(predictably) after the fact that it's ok to go back. But that doesn't mean she's not in danger.
Posted by Chuck on January 4, 2012 at 10:54 am | permalink |
Penelope – Not going to try in any way to tell you what to do. But here's the thing. I've worried about you for a long time. I worried when you tweeted about miscarrying during a board meeting. I worried when you cracked your head open by purposely smashing a lamp over your own head. I worried when the Farmer tried to run you down with the tractor. I worried when you stood in a public restroom sucking the pus out of your abscessed tooth (you are obviously not taking care of yourself). Now this violent incident. You said you were staying at the hotel for a month to get some perspective. Now just 3 days later, you say you're definitely staying with the Farmer. I've always regarded you as a courageous writer, strong woman, brilliant career advisor. But I've worried about you more and more frequently. I hope you're OK, I hope you're thinking clearly, I hope that your sons are OK. I hope it all works out. But I worry. Maybe zero tolerance for domestic violence is wrong…but how much does one tolerate before its right to leave?
Posted by elaine on January 2, 2012 at 7:42 pm | permalink |
How dare you deny us the comfortable superiority of broadly accepted moral absolutes? This is America.
And are we (commentors) being taught a lesson in subtlety from a 40-something, variably employed mother with autism?
Yes, if there is a pattern of violence, you should leave. But one, even two, heavily provoked bruises doesn't necessarily make a pattern. Though it might. That's for you to decide based on the situation(s). Nothing is absolute. Given your usual oversubscription to belief I'm surprised by how well you seem to understand that.
You go girl. Don't be a victim, whether that means you need to leave or stay. You know what situation is best overall for yourself, choose that. Becoming a victim is in one's attitude: it's taking this story to your blog in the slightly hysterical way you did last time. This post? This is taking control and responsibility.
Posted by Emily08 on January 2, 2012 at 7:53 pm | permalink |
"The Farmer told me that he will not beat me up any more if I do not make him stay up late talking to me."
Even if someone was as weak willed as to accept the argument that sometimes people just have to hit each other and they can't help it, it would not apply in this case, because its clearly not a spur of the moment, regretted thing. Its rationalized on both sides.
This "farmer" isn't someone who is having lapses in self control, its someone who's decided that physical violence is an appropriate response to certain provocations. And that he will only agree to stop using violence when she corrects her behaviour. Great lesson to teach the kids.
If this guy really had a problem with hitting women but just had poor impulse control, then he would have already volunteered to leave the household since he would know he can't control himself around her, but he doesn't even have that excuse. He's fine with hitting her, and apparently so is she (As long as she gets to tell herself that she's not really an abused woman, that the hitting is really down to her because of how she acts, its all about her). Its a good job those 2 people are the only ones who matter. /s
If you can't see how fucked up this arrangement is then there is no hope for you.
This will get worse. Unfortunately its not Penelope who'll suffer most, since she seems to be relishing the adversity (and publicity). It's her two kids who are going to suffer (not least because they're home schooled and have little escape from such a poisonous home environment) If you think growing up as a kid having someone beat your mother is not damaging then you're insane.
This is nothing to do with absolutes. It's about what is and isn't acceptable behaviour for grown adults.
Posted by VeryMildSuperPowers on January 2, 2012 at 10:16 pm | permalink |
Hi penelope
Firstly, I think it's incredibly brave of you to live your life like this out in the public eye. I've not posted before but the post on the psychology of quitting has stirred something and I feel compelled to write to you.
All of us have choices and you made a very good case for taking on personal responsibility in the latest post. But ultimately, you cannot solve all problems.
Also, if you could have solved this problem you are attempting to solve now by changing who you are, I dont think that its going to be a quick fix. So although I agree that personal responsibility is the way forward for making real change and progress, I dont know that it solves all the issues with your relationship with the farmer. I agree that it takes two to tango here but I dont think that you should accept abuse. It's just a progressively downhill battle once it starts.
Living this public life, I guess you should be aware that there are others who may look to you for advice and put some weight on your opinion. So much has already been said about the effect on your kids, on your own psyche and on your relationship that I feel I cant add more at this point without repetition. But I wish you well, I thank you for sharing this and bringing this to the top of the pile.
I cant help but remember what I read that its only you that can make yourself happy.
Posted by rowena on January 2, 2012 at 7:57 pm | permalink |
I know you get a million comments and posting this feels a little like spitting in the ocean. I have been reading your blog for a long time, I think you are a brilliant writer. Reading a well-written blog makes me feel like I know the person writing it, which is silly. Any snapshot of someone's life is always going to leave something out. I don't know what is really going on in your home.
I have been on both sides of domestic violence, and I am currently volunteering at a crisis shelter for women (as an acupuncturist). I have seen a lot of people in violent situations, and they are all different. People end up in violent relationships and stay in violent relationships for many reasons, and it is easy for people who have never been there to have blanket opinions. I am a strong person, and I am also a difficult person (I'm an ENTJ). Some of the abuse was my fault, some of it wasn't. There were people who said I was an idiot for ending up in that situation, and then tried to comfort me and tell me what to do in the same breath. It was very frustrating. I do think there are things you can do to help the relationship, but you have said that you are comfortable with feeling like it's your fault. Also try to recognize when it isn't, or when the punishment is disproportionate to the crime.
If you want to talk to someone, send me an email. I know I'm a total stranger, but I won't judge you or tell you what to do.
Posted by Alis on January 2, 2012 at 8:10 pm | permalink |
I find this type of over simplification happening far too often. People's lives are far more complicated than we ever assume and there is rarely a simple solution to our issues that can be summed up by a stranger in the comments section of a blog.
What you need to know though is that much of people reaching out to say its not your fault stems from their concern for you. Abuses tend to blame the victims even in cases where the victim truly isn't at fault. When you open yourself up as you do people feel as if they know you and they want you to be safe and happy. There are certainly exceptions. I'm speechless at how cold people can be in their comments but that has less to do with you and more to do with their own issues.
At the end of the day we are all working throguh our stuff and rarely do the solutions come easily or quickly.
Just keep in mind that his blaming you is also an abdication of personal responsibility. I don't fault you for wanting to own your role but he must own his as well and blaming you for his behavior isn't a great start. This will be necessary if you are going to find peace in your marriage. You have my compassion and understanding that no ones life is as simple as we make it out to be. I hope you are able to work this through to a peaceful resolution regardless of what it looks like.
Posted by Amy on January 2, 2012 at 9:12 pm | permalink |
Zero tolerance for most things is usually foolish. Having a nuanced understanding of family dynamics, conflict, and abuse is important for all involved. It's honest. Sometimes you can fix things, sometimes you can't. I know I could not fix the abusive relationship I was in but the abuser was not willing. Also, I was definitely abused and manipulated. There was a huge power imbalance due to age and shared history. It wasn't a marriage or true partnership. My husband would never be violent with me, even if I got violent with him first. I know that about him. But if he did, he would be the one person I could trust to work it out with.
I did not recreate my childhood with my husband but lord knows I sometimes can't help trying to! I'm lucky he just doesn't have that desire. And I also think I just don't need to recreate it as much as I did several years ago. We all pick who we need to learn from. It's good that you have this insight about your parents and current relationship. I think it's also useful to know that recreating chaos isn't inevitable.
Posted by Joselle on January 2, 2012 at 9:20 pm | permalink |
Hey Penelope,
I'm with you. No cross-examination, no outrage, no weirdness, no agenda, no passive-aggression regarding your situation
Just support and good thoughts. Best of luck to you both.
Posted by Rachel on January 2, 2012 at 9:25 pm | permalink |
There are 2 kids involved who don't have the opportunity to get out.
You don't get to gamble with their lives on the chance that suddenly this relationship that has been getting progressively worse starts to get better.
She's already admitted that growing up in a violent household has had an effect on her (likely what is making her think its okay for the kids to grow up in such a household). She's perpetuating a cycle of violence, for nothing more than a narcissistic urge to take "responsibility" and "fix" things. Because her having a relationship for some guy she's known for 3 years is more important than their kids growing up in a stable environment without being exposed to violence, and emotional abuse.
All her language is about how its HER choice. Her kids don't even get a mention (except vicariously when she talks about what it was like for HER to grow up as a kid under these conditions). If it was alright for her, its alright for her kids right?
"The Farmer told me that he will not beat me up any more if I do not make him stay up late talking to me."
Physical abuse should not be conditional on anything, ever. If you're going to play the "we can work through it line" it HAS to be under the guise that any violence is a lapse in self control, not that its an agreement for good behaviour.
Thank god non of the women in my life are this servile and pathetic.
Posted by VeryMildSuperPowers on January 2, 2012 at 10:06 pm | permalink |
"The Farmer told me that he will not beat me up any more if I do not make him stay up late talking to me."
It would be "zero tolerance" if this was the first time it happened. But its not.
All your rationalizations pale in insignificance to the quote. Physical violence is not something you bargain with. If zero tolerance really was wrong (Which it isn't), then the appropriate response would be "this never happens again or I'm gone".
Not, "I'll only stop hitting you if you stop doing stuff to piss me off".
Frankly I think you're insanely immoral to expose your kids to this kind of behaviour (not to mention blazing rows that make them cry).
I could get some sort of schaudenfruedic joy out of the situation if it wasn't for the fact there are 2 vulnerable WHO HAVE TO LIVE WITH SOMEONE WHO HITS THEIR MOTHER.
Please put your kids up for adoption if you're not willing to put them before your emotional desires, and narcissistic urge to take responsibility for the beatings.
Posted by VeryMildSuperPowers on January 2, 2012 at 9:58 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
If you haven't already read this, I'd highly recommend you read "The Dance of Anger: A woman's guide to changing the patterns of intimate relationships" by Harriet Lerner. The book talks about how both parties contribute to angry explosions that aren't productive and serve to reinforce patterns established in the relationship as well as outside of it.
While I do not condone domestic violence, let's be real here, people get angry and things happen that both parties can (but, not always) contribute to. I think it's definitely possible for abuse on the women's part to lead to a physical reaction from a man. While it is never justified, vilifying the man in all cases isn't right either. It's not a black and white issue.
Good luck Penelope and stay safe.
Posted by Shann on January 2, 2012 at 11:09 pm | permalink |
My last post diifer make it past rhe moderator so here is the watered down version.
Domestic Violence is the relatively new politically correct term for wife beating. Mr. Farmer is a Wife Beater. And you are likely suffering from your own unique flavor of Battered Wife Syndrome.
It matters not who started it, whose fault it is, or anything else. Violence is Violence. Domestic just means its at home.
Pen, I know you like to do research. Have you researched these terms? Do you know the odds for the farmer changing his behaviour? What about the odds you will change in this situation? And what are the odds the children will suffer long term from their exposure to the violence in the home?
Do some more research, and tell me you are going to play the odds, putting your kids mental health on the line? And you are doing this for… Personal Growth?
I am beginning to feel like an enabler by reading this stuff.
I no longer enjoy your intersection of work and life.
Peace be with you.
Posted by Crystal on January 3, 2012 at 12:48 am | permalink |
Want me to beat him up?
Posted by TheHeadHunter on January 3, 2012 at 1:00 am | permalink |
I hear you, Penelope, when you say that you are a risk-taker and proud of it. Ergo, you will return to the Farmer and step up the problem solving.
But you are also a mother who is taking risks and playing a dangerous game with your children. And for all your honesty, you have not written about your sons' responses to the fights and shoving.
And you are a brand. Bigger brands than you have gone down in flames over domestic issues–Tiger Woods for example. (And I am hoping with all my heart that this is not more persuasive than protecting your children.)
I am picturing you and the Farmer forgiving one another now, and how seductive that must be . . .
Posted by chris on January 3, 2012 at 2:01 am | permalink |
the farmers not the dad though right? hes just some violent guy who their mother married out of her own lack of self worth and who they will either grow up despising or emulating. its the oldest cliche of all time and yet shes acting like theres some radical feminist reasoning behind believing that shes asking for it. I found this site through jezabel and these posts are just too upsetting, that this is an advice site is irresponsible and repulsive.
Posted by lainey on January 3, 2012 at 2:11 am | permalink |
Goodness, Penelope, you are probably the bravest person I have ever encountered!
Posted by Jan Exner on January 3, 2012 at 4:38 am | permalink |
Once you said that one of the things that drives you crazy is that people who write to you for career advice all write a million words and think they're special. And they're not special, the same problems repeat over and over and people just don't realize it applies to them.
What if you're not special? What if you're exactly like every other woman who gets hit and thinks it's her fault?
Posted by Alanna on January 3, 2012 at 4:43 am | permalink |
I think Penelope is just going public with her private life and the interesting thing is what people can comment on a blog. There are no right answers here, well there are – but P would have to find the right response or answer to her problem on her own, she would have to realize it herself, it can't be told or advised, that is one of the reasons this is an interesting blog post- how do you advise someone in a situation like this so that it works? What happens between two people is always different then between two other people, there is never the same combination. So Penelope is different, we are all different and special. Each situation is different, we are all individuals – or need to think we are. But women do take care of women and I think that is an important thing to remember – but in P's situation this is not what you want to hear. There are theories, there are facts and figures, there are even real proved equations about violence that can always be applied. What needs to be seen here (I think) is what is actually happening – a public exposure of something which is very private, which is not reality television but mirroring something like it – it is sociologically interesting – somewhere between voyeurism and something else, violence between couples, exposure to violence for children. We can't know what is really happening between Penelope and her husband, and yes – all of the suggestions about the family and the community they live in such as stopping the homeschooling and the other suggestions are good ones and I think that the children probably should stop the homeschooling because they need a way out from under, whether or not P should leave her husband – is different – but she has brought the subject up – not to get advice but to create a blog post about this subject. It is very generous of Penelope to blog this sort of thing – and I think it will probably become something that will make it into the text books and however you look at it – it is an opening up of the subject of domestic violence and the structure of the family home that is – healthy- because the subject is being approached and opened up for public discussion.
Posted by Another Penelope on January 3, 2012 at 5:12 am | permalink |
You're a brave girl, Penny.
I wouldn't want to be married to you but I hope things go well for you.
Posted by Alan on January 3, 2012 at 6:41 am | permalink |
Penelope, I don't think you're seeing the situation clearly. You want to believe that you and your situation is different from every other case of domestic violence but you have no real reason to believe this.
Of course it often takes two people to argue. No one is saying that you are perfect or easy to get on with. What they are saying is that it is never OK to respond with violence. You can be responsible for your own behaviour but you are not responsible for the guy hitting you. Not even a little bit. He could yell, he could walk away, he could talk things through, he could end the relationship, he doesn't have to hit you.
Regardless of whether the kids are being hit or not,it is damaging for them to be around violence and to grow up accepting it as normal. You said yourself that the fact you grew up in a violent home is part of Tge reason why you find yourself in this situation now. Is that what you want for your ins! To grow up and hit or be hit? Yes, they WOULD be better off in a single-parent home without violence. Without question.
If you didn't believe they would be OK in a single-parent home, you wouldn't have divorced their father. It's the fact that the abuse has clouded your judgment that makes you question this. You've been gaslighted (look it up).
Leaving may be best for both of you. He clearly has anger management issues to work through and he may find that very difficult in ths current relationship. I do believe people can change but only over many years. Your kids will be all grown up by then and it will be too late to reverse that damage. The thing that gives me most pause is that he seems to be in denial about the fact he has a problem – he blames you or all of it. So what makes you think he will change? Especially when you've shown you'll tolerate it.
You have written plenty of stuff about how difficult you re to work with. Would you tolerate it if one of your colleagues or investors gave you a bruise like the farmer gave you? The fact that you love each other makes it worse not better!
I know you love the guy and it is a terribly difficult situation and decision but just know that you are a human being worthy if love and respect, that you don't deserve to be hit no matter how imperfect you are, and that there are safe places in the world for you and your sons.
Posted by Caitlin on January 3, 2012 at 6:50 am | permalink |
the not Tge
kids not ins
Auto-correct on the iPad is annoying! There are probably other typos too but hopefully you can make sense of what I'm saying from the context!
Posted by Caitlin on January 3, 2012 at 6:55 am | permalink |
This is better than reality TV. It's like "The View", but with more poorly informed women.
To add into the 'dialogue' –
How many of you trashed Hillary Clinton for staying with her husband after the Lewiski fiasco?
Posted by Passingby on January 3, 2012 at 6:54 am | permalink |
And all old Bill did was cat around.
The beatings will continue until morale improves. Used to be just a joke.
"You don't know what I did leading up to the bruise in the photo." Quite right. And we still don't know, and not because nobody asked. Instead we now know the details of a particularly ugly (and irrelevant) incident from your parents' life.
This is the most irrational self-serving post yet, and that's saying something.
Posted by Doug on January 3, 2012 at 7:30 am | permalink |
Indeed. For someone who insists on not having secrets and speaking openly about everything, Penelope seems to be guarding very closely the secret of what she did to trigger the Farmer's reaction. I think the reason is easy to understand: she knows her readers would not react as she wants, agreeing with her that the physical violence reaction was warranted.
Posted by Chris M. on January 4, 2012 at 2:13 pm | permalink |
Whatever.
A man should not hit his wife… at all, not matter what the provocation. Leaving doesn't mena you must divorce – leave the proximity, seek reconciliation, seek pofessional help, seek solutions. But staying and calling it "it's not all his fault… blah, blah" and "it's not hurting my kids…" is bullshit and you know it.
Hey, do whatever you want. Just know a few years from now when your bruised and bleeding that many of us urged you to make a change.
I have no patience for people in a bad situation who choose to do nothing to improve it. I agree you may have some responsibility in provoking the Farmer, but he still could have chosen to leave the house rather than hit you. You do have full responsibility for all the damage this day forward to your kids who witness the abuse.
I hope things get better. They won't, though, unless you do something about it.
Posted by Danny T on January 3, 2012 at 7:31 am | permalink |
I hope you can tranfer some of your career oriented, rash and beautiful bravery to being vulnerable in your relationship as you've mentioned you need to be, and by merging the two, find yet another way that your dinamic career has benefited your personal life
. And ours!
Best of wishes for each day this year brings.
Posted by Rosa on January 3, 2012 at 7:38 am | permalink |
Wow. I am so confused to read this entry having just discovered this awesome blog in the past month. At first glance about domestic abuse I thought I had arrived at another destination, that this wasn't the popular business blog. Now I see and I send my best wishes for everything to work out and work out soon.
Posted by Cubicle Rebel on January 3, 2012 at 7:45 am | permalink |
To the point that this type of "personal" blog entry has nothing to do with career or career advice:
I think it does. And I think Penelope is making the applications explicit:
1) in the first blog post, the title has "quitting" in it–definitely relatable to one's career as well as to troubled relationships;
2) in the 2nd blog post, Penelope says explicitly that she does start-ups which require her to be a risk-taker–thus her decision to stay with the Farmer.
It is a sign of intelligence to be able to make applications. And it is a holistic belief that (personal) life and work intersect.
I, for one, will keep reading and believing that these type of blog posts will open up my mind, forcing me to consider topics, solutions, relationships that I never would have considered before.
But I definitely STILL have reservations about the boys being enmeshed in this problem.
Posted by chris on January 3, 2012 at 7:59 am | permalink |
@ Chris –
1. what could you apply from the "quitting" post? That you need to be missed from a job that mistreat you?
2. What about the "zero tolerance"? That if you are mistreated at work, it's your fault, and you should keep working on it?
Awesome. More doormats, and less competition for the rest of us.
Posted by joana on January 3, 2012 at 10:52 am | permalink |
Thanks for speaking a more balanced perspective around domestic violence. Everything lives in the grey including this. And the men who are violent this way is still just a way. Zero tolerance is too black and white.
Posted by Theo Reynolds on January 3, 2012 at 8:32 am | permalink |
As a recent subscriber, I eagerly looked forward to learning a lot from your blog. I had no idea that I would be learning that you, like many other women blame yourself for domestic violence, feeling that you somehow 'contribute' to it. You stated that it is a given that you would grow up to be an adult who would live in a violent household since, you lived in one as a child. Somewhere along the way violence became a normal part of your life. And yes, you did grow up to be that adult, and yes, your kids will too. They will see what is going on in your house, and see that you 'tolerate' it, and they will grow up and 'tolerate' it too. You may love 'The Farmer' and share a family with him, but no one deserves to be abused, not even for throwing red paint on the wallpaper, like your mom did…..that didn't justify her being abused by someone else. Abuse is a violent form of bullying, and the victim always thinks it is partly their fault. So the life you live is the life you are teaching your kids that it is ok and normal to live, and you are passing domestic violence down, as their legacy. Think about that. There is no reason why you should have to leave. Make him leave and go get help. If he truly wants a loving, peaceful family, he will do so. If not, then having him arrested for his behavior is your opportunity to MAKE him get some help….. a lot of places have anger management programs to help people deal with their anger, and violence in their families. These programs HEAL a lot of families, so the violence does not continue….so children don't think of it as normal, with girls growing up and allowing boyfriends and husbands to abuse them, and boys don't grow up thinking they have the right to abuse their girlfriends and wives. For YOU, for YOUR CHILDREN, and for THE FARMER…..Can YOU be strong enough to do what it takes to heal your family? Or will you continue to allow this terrible legacy of violence, and continue to justify it, and continue to ignore those trying to help you, and only blog about those negative comments you receive? It is your life, your family, and YOU have the power to create the kind of family you want to have, but it will mean taking some very serious steps towards healing the family, making some very hard decisions, FOR the family. What will you do, Penelope? WHAT WILL YOU CHOOSE TO DO?
Your Children are looking up to you. What will you do???????
Posted by Susan on January 3, 2012 at 9:06 am | permalink |
You will do what you do and what we say won't matter, but you had better not kid yourself that you are thinking about your kids in any way. You are probably an incredibly difficult person to be around and may well do awful, ridiculous things, but that doesn't mean that someone should lose their shit and hit you in response. As someone said, you know that it is not okay to hit your kids even when they make you homicidal.
You are mentally ill and addicted to something â the drama, your own neediness, whatever it is. But if you believe anything anyone tells you, believe this. Your kids see it all and will remember it all. When they are old enough and tired of the hell you have made of their lives, they will leave or distance themselves. Do what you want with your own life, but don't screw theirs' up any more than you have. You had a horrible childhood and I am really surprised that you are not completely focused on giving them a different life than you had. But you aren't. You are using them to feed your own needs. The homeschooling, the living in the car driving everywhere for lessons, the isolation, the jerking them around here and there, the subjecting them to a crazy mother and an abusive stepfather. None of it is good for them.
A couple more points. You really don't have any credibility anymore as a career advice blogger. And your ex-husband is contemptible for allowing the kids to live in this situation.
Posted by Kathy on January 3, 2012 at 9:26 am | permalink |
All I can say is — I had some friends. The guy was with one of my friends and the relationship was violent. They split up and then another of my friend went with the guy. I thought, "wtf? is she crazy?" But you know what? No problems. They ended up marrying, having a daughter, being together for 15+ years. One thing I learned was — it is the dynamic between two people that creates a violent relationship. So, I think you are quite on track with how you are working on this.
Posted by Tracy on January 3, 2012 at 9:46 am | permalink |
http://curiousfarmer.com/about/
http://curiousfarmer.com/about/
http://curiousfarmer.com/about/
http://curiousfarmer.com/about/
check out the abuser!
Posted by farmersconcubine on January 3, 2012 at 10:22 am | permalink |
http://curiousfarmer.com/about/
http://curiousfarmer.com/about/
curiousfarmer.com/
curiousfarmer.com/
curiousfarmer.com/
does that look like an abuser to you? fraud, this entire blog is a fraud.
Posted by farmersconcubine on January 3, 2012 at 10:22 am | permalink |
curiousfarmer.com/
curiousfarmer.com/
fraud?
Posted by farmersconcubine on January 3, 2012 at 10:23 am | permalink |
curiousfarmer.com/
wow wow wow
Posted by farmersconcubine on January 3, 2012 at 10:25 am | permalink |
Thank you for being so honest with yourself and with us, Penelope. There are some people out there that CAN indeed provoke and provoke and badger and badger and nag and nag and go absolutely batshit crazy on someone to the point where the other person snaps and gets violent. It happens all the time. Your honesty has caused me to look back on some of my own past and realize various situations where I was just as responsible for bad behavior in a mate that amounted to verbal or physical abuse. Bravo. You are so brave. I truly hope you get the help that you both deserve and need.
Posted by Phenom on January 3, 2012 at 10:38 am | permalink |
Giving the message it's okay for anyone who has been physically battered by another person to blame themselves for their abuse and injuries is beyond awful.
This is what people who hit and hurt their loves ones do–they say the victim made them do it.
"You made me put my hands on you. You made me push you, throw that thing at you, punch you, cut you, shoot you. It is your fault. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have done it."
If I lose control and push, slap, punch, kick, cut, shoot somebody–it's all that person's fault he/she got hurt!
Boy, is that liberating.
Can I kick my cat and punch my dog too? After, all if they weren't in my way aggravating me, they wouldn't have gotten kicked or punched. How about my kids? They are as annoying as hell.
Wow. I never saw it that way before.
Thank you, Penelope.
Posted by Creamy on January 3, 2012 at 10:39 am | permalink |
you write a lot of crap but you have surpassed yourself today. Congrats.
Posted by claudia on January 3, 2012 at 10:54 am | permalink |
Penelope, I actually came to your blog last week for the first time after I read about your situation at babble.com. I was glad to find your blog, even though the details of your childhood made me sick, because I was able to see how smart you are. I am just dissapointed that you chose to only address the comments where people did not make you responsible for your situation and ignore the ones where other people (like me) made you responsible. Not only you are responsible for staying but you are also putting your kids throught that. It is not fair and it sticks with them. I know, not because I grew up in a violent home but because when one of my aunts got married (and I was very young) I remember that her husband came to my parent's house looking to bring her back because, according to him, she was crazy and out of control. Later, we found out that he has tried to beat her up after an argument over dinner, and even when she was way smaller than him, she pushed him against the refrigerator and he almost got knocked out. At that moment, I understood the power I had to protect myself from violence and that is what makes me intolerant to violence not only because of the consecuences to the main victim but most of all to the consecuences that kids have to suffer. They are the victims with no choice but to stay.
Posted by Rosana on January 3, 2012 at 10:57 am | permalink |
I hope that your family can heal from this. Therapy (Anger Management/Marriage counseling/ Family Counseling) is a must. Otherwise, staying will only perpetuate the violent behavior. And this is not okay. I believe that you love the farmer. But separating, even for a short while, would be the best thing. Children need to be in a peaceful, loving household even if it means there is only one parent in it. Where is your ex-husband in all of this as I know you have shared custody? Take good care.
Posted by Grace B. on January 3, 2012 at 11:02 am | permalink |
This post makes a lot of sense for your situation, Penelope -I'm happy to see that you can see how you contribute to his shoving (i won't say beating, cause it wasn't) you.
With that said- you still need to fix yourself, and you can. Don't feel compelled to stay with him while you do it though. The 'healed' you may choose a completely different person than the Farmer. And that's okay.
Posted by J on January 3, 2012 at 11:02 am | permalink |
i've commented a few times here…yes, women with financial means and good jobs are victims of domestic violence. we often have a lot farther to go in terms of peeling off the layers of denial. DV is not something that happens in "families like ours." Just denial. Because it often turns out that families like ours are chockful of violence of all kinds. It happens to people in all classes, of all financial means. You are lucky; you can leave without wondering how you will pay rent, etc. Doesn't mean it is easy.
Yes, you can change yourself and that doesn't not always mean the other person will change for the better. When I stopped accepting the abuse my ex dished out he got even more violent. If one person could fix a marriage comprised of 2 people, I would have done it — as I'm sure others who read your blog would have done. It can't happen. Sorry you have trouble seeing that.
I am sad at the violence that your kids see day after day. And because of the homeschooling, they never get a break from the stress in your household.
Luck is a terrible thing to depend on in your situation.
Posted by btdt on January 3, 2012 at 11:03 am | permalink |
I was just introduced to your blog by my cousin, it happens that I came out of an abusive relationship with children and I left. My girls see their father regularly, I wanted them to be able to develop a relationship with him that I hope and pray doesn't become abusive. But I had to give them the chance to do that, they deserve to have a father in their lives, and it's not their fault that he and I could not make it work. That being said, I just wanted to say that this happens to be the first of your posts that I've read, and I like your style and support what you have said. I think everyone's situation is different and it takes a strong person to be able to see that and take inventory of themselves. I wish you the best and truly hope it does work out for you.
Posted by Heather on January 3, 2012 at 11:43 am | permalink |
To stay or not to stay. This is a personal decision for all people in this situation – both the pitcher and the catcher. I'll tell you why I left, and why I think about going back all the time.
My (ex)boyfriend is hot and passionate and stirs positive feelings in me that I haven't felt in a very long time. When it is good, it is fantastic. But he is an alcoholic with what I suspect is an undiagnosed borderline personality disorder. His drunken, rage-filled tantrums had been increasing over several months to the point that my sarcastic joke about *whatever* would set him off on a "serious discussion" path that I could never win.
My first serious sign that I could get hurt was when he got mad at me for not cuddling with him in bed after an argument, and he punched a spinning ceiling fan, the broken blade sailing through the air like a sword. I ran from his apartment, knowing that he needed to get help or I would be next.
I saw him twice in the following 2 weeks. Both times I pleaded with him to get help, go to counseling, something. He refused. Didn't see what the big deal was. Swore to me the he would never lay a hand on me and he knew it. I wasn't so sure, but I don't have a crystal ball, either. I know that he meant it, but I wasn't so sure he could keep his temper in check.
The third time I saw him, we spent a GREAT day together. He had a cocktail with dinner, and another and another, until he went from saying all these wonderful things about me being the only one for him and our future together, to him throwing a remote control at me, grabbing me by the hair, bending me backwards to yell in my face, then throwing me down on the ground so hard and with such force that I sustained a broken wrist out of it.
Why I left is obvious. But here's why I stayed after the build-up to the broken fan incident and after:
1. I fell in love not only with him, but his words to me. Having someone say that he loves you and wants to build a family with you when you are 39, divorced, childless, and have your own abandonment issues is intoxicating. Remember, when it's good, it's very good.
2. He is a man who is sick and needs help. Everyone in his life has left him at some point or another, and with good reason. But there is something about that Florence Nightingale effect that some of us women have. We think we are the ones that can fix him, save him. My therapist tells me no, but I've watched enough Hollywood endings to hold out the option that it is still possible.
3. He is my drug. And the dopamine that rises in me every time I think of him is tough to battle. I miss him like crazy. I dream good dreams about him every night. I do not hate him. And then I look at the cast on my arm and remember what he is capable of. Right now, the cast is the only real thing stopping me from calling him, and even that has less and less of an effect as the days and weeks go on.
And lest you call me a Stupid Girl, well maybe I am. But I'm also a girl who has a masters degree, a very good job, I once had a 15 year marriage that was stable (if boring), and this is the first man who has ever laid a hand on me. My brain knows that I cannot go back. That we do not have a real shot at a happy, safe future together. But try telling that to my heart that cries for his recovery every day, and for me to be standing by his side when he does.
Personal responsibility is huge, I agree. But it has to be on both sides. If he (the Farmer or my boyfriend) does not OWN what he has done. regret it, and get help to change it, then our personal responsibility is to either protect ourselves and our children (born, not-yet-born, even pets), or to know that the possibility is high that it will happen again and to accept all of the consequences that come from that decision to stay. All of them.
Posted by Jennifer on January 3, 2012 at 12:16 pm | permalink |
First, I really like your blog.
Second, Anne is very correct about the difference between Domestic Violence and Relationships with Violence.
I've been where the Farmer is, I believe. Done some of the things he's done, for what sound like very familiar reasons.
Married for 7 years now, the simple fact is that we stay together if we are committed to learning as adults what we never learned as children. That is, how should we handle anger, frustration, and emotional pain. A functional relationship only occurs between two people who have learned these skills. Until that point, we can separate, we can leave each other and start it all over again with someone new, all b/c we haven't learned what we need to know.
Or we can stay, forgive, and help each other learn. It takes children 9-10 years to learn how to handle these painful emotions; it honestly takes just as long for those of us who have to learn as adults.
And for reference, I did not grow up in a violent household. I grew up with split-custody, over-worked parents, both of whom have had 4 marriages. I had no real friends until my senior year in college and never learned how to deal with an emotionally stressful situation.
I'm not autistic or anything like that; I was just never taught what I needed to know.
Posted by Ryan on January 3, 2012 at 12:38 pm | permalink |
I've always loved your honesty and have learned a lot from you. But this post did push it over the line for me. Not that I don't think that you have valid points, and have a lot to figure out. It's that this last series of posts is probably generating a ton of money for you and it involves children and domestic violence.
I've thought about it for days. It makes me a little sick, honestly, that you'd use this situation to drive controversy and readership. I hope you find a way to handle this that keeps you and your family safe. I won't read anymore…not that it matters to you, people unsubscribe every day. But I wanted to tell you why.
Posted by Erika on January 3, 2012 at 12:45 pm | permalink |
I want to echo those who suggested DBT skills training. I grew up with a borderline mother, and indeed this led to the sorts of violent situations that Penelope describes here so well. My mother was far less kind and thoughtful than Penelope, and their lives have devolved into something very dysfunctional and beyond help. But if you're willing to change, Penelope, I really think DBT is the way to go. You have to realize that your emotional needs are disordered, and in fact it is not your husband's responsibility to address your emotional needs whenever they arise. Your insistence on having your emotional needs met is its own form of violence. You talk about taking responsibility for your role: that means believing that your emotional needs are disordered, and learning to manage them the same way you would manage diabetes or any other sort of chronic ailment. I wish my mother had had the perspective or willingness to admit this and to change.
Posted by irenev30 on January 3, 2012 at 1:13 pm | permalink |
I think what's needed here is a simple review of one of your own blogs' subheds:
"There are no bad bosses" (or bad husbands, maybe, by extension?
"Overcome incompetent skills by leveraging others" If you aren't good at shutting up so he can sleep, maybe you can talk in a different room.
"Overcome moral incompetence by knowing your boundaries" Or establishing new ones.
"Always weigh your benefits" and put the downsides on the other side of the scale.
It really works. Not just when you wrote it, but now, too.
Posted by QuinnCreative on January 3, 2012 at 1:14 pm | permalink |
Penelope:
Look at it this way. If you work in an office and you act/perform poorly, there are certain appropriate and inappropriate responses your employer might have.
You could meet in your manager's office for a meeting where you discuss your performance in a calm manner which is a good way to handle things (it's textbook, at least). Your manager could stand outside your cube and loudly proclaim your faults for everyone to hear. This borders on verbal abuse and intimidation but falls within the subjective grey area of rightness versus wrongness. Your manager could also meet you in the parking lot, break your windows and beat you with a tire iron which is bad because 1) its obviously abusive, 2) it really hurts and 3) windshields are expensive.
Your work performance might have been the catalyst for your manager's response, but your manager is responsible for that response. You are not responsible for your manager's response. No matter how badly you act at work â even if you go so far as to threaten people's lives â beating people with a tire iron is always wrong unless it was done in self-defense. And even then ⦠people don't normally have ready access to tire irons at work unless we're talking about mechanics, in which case all previous assumptions are out the window.
Bring this situation back home and we still have two people interacting, each person responding in ways that are either appropriate or inappropriate. Maybe you acted inappropriately (which is what you intimate from this post). That does not give The Farmer the right to respond with violence unless he was protecting himself (ie you come at him with a tire iron), protecting you (you try to hit yourself with a tire iron) or the kids (you come at the kids with a tire iron). Even if his actions were justified in this context, the justification stops once the threat of violence on your part (if it existed) has ended.
The question, then, is how bad were your actions? Did they constitute a real, physical threat to him, to you, to the kids? If so, okay. The next question we need to ask is did his response end the moment the threat ended, or did it continue? If it continued, it was wrong. His response is his responsibility, no matter what you do to provoke him.
Another thing you need to consider is perception. Research shows that people in stressful situations (like job loss, a marriage ending, physical or verbal abuse) are not capable of accurately assessing the specifics of their situation. They see things as either much worse or much better than they actually are. This is a common cognitive bias.
You thought it was okay to go back to your parents when you were a kid, even as your parents abused you, mistreated you and warped your sense of self worth. Unless you consider yourself fully healed from that experience, you are not qualified to objectively assess the situation to determine how dangerous it actually is. We're all like this in some respect, though, so don't think you're a freak or anything. It's just a common human trait.
One of my friends was abused when he was a kid. Looking back, it was obvious but I had no idea what was going on. I was a kid. The idea that parents treated their kids that way was completely foreign to me. One day, my friend stopped coming to school. His dad beat him so bad he was in the hospital for three months. He almost died. Still, his mom went back. It was only after the dad came after one of the girls that she finally left him.
My friend moved away after high school and never looked back. Good for him. His mom moved next door to me when I was just out of college. She came over to borrow some rice once and apologized for everything. I told her it wasn't her fault. She said she knew, but she still wishes she'd left sooner. That's another common thing. Once they get out and stay out, most abuse survivors wish they'd gotten out sooner.
Her daughter, by the way, is married to an abusive man. She thinks its her fault no matter what people tell her. She things she can change him even though none of his previous wives have been able to.
That's the thing about kids who survive abuse. Research shows that they tend to grow up to relive abuse in their adult lives either as victims or perpetrators. If this cycle continues in your home, it will continue not just with you, but with your kids as well. You know this. You've seen it in your life and the lives of others as well. If The Farmer's actions were inappropriate (regardless of your actions), and if they remain inappropriate, you are not only reliving your past abuse, but you are dooming your children to the same fate.
I don't know what you're going through. I've never lived through it. I only remember stopping over to my friends house one day after school to see how he was doing; seeing him lying on a bed, writing in pain and listening to his mom say that he just had the flu and that he'd be back in school soon. I should have known then. She should have known, too, by her own admission.
You said you're used to taking risks. What kind of a risk are you taking now? You have all the power here. If your husband (who has not seemed to progress in intimacy to something closer like "My Farmer" on your blog despite the progression in real life) was inappropriate and continues being inappropriate, its time to go. No manner of improvement on your part will change him. Life doesn't work that way. If you are the violent one and he is protecting you, then its time to change.
Either way, your response is your responsibility. I hope you make the best choices for you and your kids.
Posted by Joe on January 3, 2012 at 1:33 pm | permalink |
A few people brought this up last time but it wasn't the majority, but I thought this reading your post: it is possible to push someone past their limit. I didn't automatically think terrible things about the farmer, or about you, just that the two of you had a tangle of very intense emotions. Our brains are not well-equipped to deal with such intensity without resorting to fight or flight. Usually when someone is approaching this stage, if you can recognize the escalation, it's good to back off. It's not always possible though without training and practice though. The signs of escalation are there though, if we can learn to recognize them (they vary for each person).
It reminds me of the time I pet a strange dog. At first the dog wagged his tail and acted friendly, and then suddenly I noticed his head was down, he was standing very still and a low rumbling came from his throat. I stopped petting him. If he wanted, he could have shredded my hand in an instant but instead he gave me signals to back off before he became too overwhelmed.
When my husband and I fought, we both pushed just the right buttons to send us both into the zone of crazy. It takes an almost military regimen of repetition & training to change a behavior (why do you think basic training takes 80 days of nearly round-the-clock immersion? It's so responses become second nature — but that takes a lot of work).
A million things can happen in an argument to escalate it — if both parties know they have the capability to do this "dance" together, it is possible to take steps to change the pattern.
One of my girlfriends has been reading "The Five Love Languages" with her husband and she says it saved their marriage. It goes on the basis that everyone has a particular way they feel loved, and it's important to understand this so you can each do things for eachother that make the other feel loved. For example, her hubby felt loved when she was physically affectionate. She felt loved when he spent quality time with her. He didn't understand why she was so disappointed once when he came home with flowers and cancelled their date night — he thought the flowers would be enough for her because they would have been enough for him. This book helped each of them understand how to offer the other more of what they needed.
Another good resource to study is a concept called "Nonviolent Communication":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication
"NVC is based on the idea that all human beings have the capacity for compassion and only resort to violence or behavior that harms others when they don't recognize more effective strategies for meeting needs."
I wish the best of luck to you & the farmer, sending lots of love to both of you. I really value all that you share here, thank you for bringing to light a very difficult and yet very important subject.
Posted by me on January 3, 2012 at 1:56 pm | permalink |
Listen to me, when I say that the only person that you will ever have control over is yourself. You cannot change him, will not change him. He will change when he wants to change, and not before, and there is nothing that you can do to force him to do so. This is not denying you your agency, it is being truthful. The only question is if you are going to stick around and wait for it to happen, while exposing your children to this poison. He may never change, no matter what you do, if he feels like he's getting what he needs out of the situation.
You have control over what you do, and how you feel about things, that is it. The problem is exactly what you laid out before. You are also getting something that you think you need out of this situation. You are trying to get an abusive person to miss you when you're gone, because your parents didn't. *That* is why you stay. It is pathological.
I too don't agree with people bashing the abused and claiming that it is all their fault. It isn't. I don't hate women that are like you, I love them. I love you enough to tell you the truth, and urge you to do what is best for you, because whether you believe it or not, you do deserve it.
Working on yourself, improving your life and your mental state are good things. Leaving a toxic relationship and doing those same things is immeasurably better. Why? Because he *will try to keep you from getting there*. It's in his best interests to do so.
My mother went through this too, after dealing with decades of psychological abuse from her father. She had to leave her relationship, had to spend a good 8 years in therapy before even touching another man, because abusive people were the only ones that really gave her a thrill. Getting through it is hard, but it is worth it, when you get to the point where you honestly believe yourself to be worthy, and actually find that person who will miss you.
Posted by Noel on January 3, 2012 at 1:58 pm | permalink |
Ask the kids what they want and then do it.
Posted by Erin on January 3, 2012 at 2:01 pm | permalink |
Penelope, I agree with you about the flaws in the common response to domestic violence. While there are no doubt aspects to the Battered Wife Syndrome that require a "victim" to receive unconditional support, picking one spouse to blame in a bad relationship is simplistic. But by showing yourself to be someone who will accept some form of abuse you invite a lot of the online attacks you've received.
I wish that the Zero DV Tolerance folks were all anti-war and anti-police violence. It seems to me that one of the foundations of our culture is that might makes right. Criminalizing domestic violence seeks to lend the power of the state to assist the weaker party in a sad personal situations. But in doing so, one party has to be seen a weak. Cooperation rather than victory is a better goal.
The holidays are stressful and it is fun to get away to a hotel. Since you decided to got back to the Farmer, I hope you were able to have some peaceful family times together.
Posted by Hazel on January 3, 2012 at 2:20 pm | permalink |
To clarify, what I think has been wrong in some of the responses to your original post is that people assumed that you were a battered woman, but my reading of your situation is that it is more nuanced. Women who are being held in a relationship by terror do need to be supported and protected.
Posted by Hazel on January 3, 2012 at 2:28 pm | permalink |
She went to the hotel to get away from someone who just threw her into a bedpost. She thought she was dying. She thought she needed to stay away for at least a month. She took her kids with her. You think she was really just looking for a fun get-a-way from the holiday stress?
Posted by Chuck on January 3, 2012 at 2:30 pm | permalink |
This blog is getting just rediculous. I believe you will do anything for attention, publicity and then the ability to write on and on, "your" toughts… Grow up, get help, and someone take those kids away from her!
Posted by Brenda on January 3, 2012 at 2:21 pm | permalink |
The point I want to make is that leaving doesn't necessarily end the violence. A woman is more likely to be killed in the first six months after she leaves then any other time.
Posted by Nancy on January 3, 2012 at 2:42 pm | permalink |
This is all attention-whoring at it's finest, which is what I've come to expect from Penelope over the years…but there are innocent children involved here, and I hope to God someone called CPS/Social Services to get them over to that house.
Penelope has never and will never understand that things are not all about her. I agree with someone on one of the previous threads who said that the real reluctance to leave is probably not nearly as cerebral as Penelope proclaims, but comes down to simple economics. Never mind that there are women's shelters that could take in Penelope and her children; that would be both an admission of failure and probably less posh accommodations than Ms. Trunk would prefer.
This whole thing is just sad, sad, sad. Ridiculously sad. It would be one thing if I was hearing these words from an inexperienced 16-year-old. But this is a grown woman defending her indefensible decision to stay with an abuser.
News flash – the abuse won't stop. It will get worse. Someone may end up dead. Hopefully it won't be the kids. All the bullshit justification in the world won't matter if that happens, which I pray to God it won't.
This blog is nothing more, and nothing less, than the sad testimony of an irretrievably broken narcissist dragging her children and everyone else around her down into dysfunction and codependency. If we continue reading it, all we're doing is feeding the downward spiral. I won't do that. I can't. I'm out.
Posted by Amy on January 3, 2012 at 3:03 pm | permalink |
There are two things to balance here: your well-being, and the well-being of your children. As their mother, you have chosen to add their well-being to your list of considerations — in fact, it's pretty high up there. That's an incredibly big burden and a very tough responsibility to live up to. I don't doubt that it's incredibly hard to uproot or give up on something, especially if you have a strong sense of determination, or you're just plain stubborn.
If your kids are…
*watching violence happen, however it begins
*fearful of conflict between you and stressed as a result,
*around a situation where you don't feel you can say no, or defend yourself because of your personal valuation, thus preparing you for further abuse
*going to be put in a situation where they feel like they need to defend you
*having inappropriate conflict resolution modeled consistently
… the choice to remove yourself or not — permanently — goes from being a discussion about your history and your desire to fix things, or an examination of any inappropriate violence or aggression you have exhibited in the farmer's direction, or how your Asperger's fits into the whole mix to a much bigger question about what parents need to do for their kids. You left and took them to a hotel when you were hurt — your instincts were solid.
Don't choose a desire to "fix" over your responsibility not to break your kids. Please.
Posted by Meg on January 3, 2012 at 3:12 pm | permalink |
I rarely comment on things, but I had to comment here.
You have to leave. I know you don't see it, but you have to trust everyone who says you need to leave.
You grew up with abuse, so it's your normal. But it isn't normal. Mature adults with healthy reactions don't hit each other.
My husband and I have been together for more than ten years. Do you know how often he's hit me? Never. Do you know how often I've hit him? Never as well. We've gotten mad, we've screamed at each other, we've stormed out of the house, we've yelled and said things we regretted later. But neither of us has broken anything more expensive than a pencil, or hit anyone or anything.
Here's a mental test you can do: what would you think if you saw two strangers behaving this way out in public? Or, would this reaction seem normal if it were an interaction with anyone else?
For example, I couldn't imagine it being acceptable for a restaurant patron to shove a waitress into a table for getting an order wrong. Can you?
You also have to ask yourself: would you want your children being treated the way you are? For any reason whatsoever? Do you want to continue this cycle for another generation, or do you want to show them a healthy reaction to being shoved into a post so hard you think you're going to die? (Which, in my opinion, should include leaving him, getting to a safe place, and pressing charges. He shouldn't be able to abuse anyone else, either, and you have the power to try to keep that from happening. I'm not living your life, so I can't tell you what to do, but this is advice I'm giving, so I feel OK making suggestions.)
Sure, you have done things. Everyone does things that make the people they love angry. My husband left the house with a sink full of dirty dishes even though he knows I can't stand to scrub pots, and set the clean laundry on the bed instead of putting it away. He sets the toilet paper rolls on top of the dispenser instead of replacing them, and he keeps stacking things on top of my jewelry box so I can't open it.
I forget to take my shoes off when I come inside. I leave dirty laundry on the floor. I put plates in the dishwasher without scrubbing them first. I let the kids run around and yell while he's trying to get work done.
People don't have to behave perfectly to not get hit.
You deserve better. You deserve someone who wants to have you around. You deserve someone who you can argue with without having to wonder if his next response will be a punch to the face.
You deserve time to yourself until you've gotten enough perspective to believe me.
Posted by Lola on January 3, 2012 at 3:17 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
I couldn't agree with you more on this post. I use to be one of those voices that said, get out if there's abuse. Little did I know how difficult that can be until this past year. I started dating a man that turned out to have a drug problem and PTSD from Iraq. The combination caused some violent outbursts that got worse. Pretty soon I was shoving him back. Scary, I missed sleep and work. It was difficult to walk away for some of the same reason's you mention. I did. He's cleaned up and has been sober for 4 mouths and wants a second chance. I'm unable to do so but am working on forgiving him. We still talk and it's gotten easier. Bottom line, this isn't a black and white situation, for anyone. I admire you for the having the guts to disclose it and to push back for those that haven't been there. They really don't know.
Best of luck. It will work out.
Posted by Lisa on January 3, 2012 at 3:21 pm | permalink |
Lisa – you don't know who 'hasn't been there before'.
PT blogger feels free to graphically document several of her episodes, without fear of any repercusion at home.
Now, when you survive broken bones; broken noses; and living in fear/walking on eggshells because you don't know what would trigger an attack, you will understand what some people mean by zero-tolerance.
Posted by Anon on January 3, 2012 at 4:03 pm | permalink |
I have been critical of some of your writing before, particularly in relations with men. I am sure you are correct that your behavior helps to escalate situations to an emotionally hot level.
Nevertheless, that does not mean you deserve to be harmed, or that you have culpability for you being harmed.
I can't tell you what the right thing to do is, because, in spite of the confessional nature of this blog, I am not privy to any of the details, or more importantly, what your fundamental values are.
But I will say it troubles me to see you claiming culpability for the violence.
For the state of your marriage relationship? Sure, you definitely play a role in how that is going, and it is commendable that you want to improve your part in that.
But for the violence? No. That was his action, and he is solely accountable for it.
I think it's in its way similar to affairs. Might one partner behave in a way that make an affair more tempting for the other partner? Definitely. Does that mean that it's that partner's fault if the other goes and has the affair? No.
Posted by JohnMcG on January 3, 2012 at 3:34 pm | permalink |
Visited the farmers blog just now. He talks about reviewing a pair of insulated bibs that a company had sent to him. Below is the last paragraph of that blog:
"I'm going to wait and wear them for a winter season before I give my final review. I'll try and be unbiased and give an accurate review, but anyone with common sense knows a blog may not accurately describe reality".
He bold typed the last 7 words….interesting.
Posted by Trish on January 3, 2012 at 3:36 pm | permalink |
That would be because abusers often make excuses for their actions and do not honestly believe that they are doing anything wrong. It's a common tactic to downplay the situation and claim that nothing is wrong, or alternatively blame the victim.
It doesn't matter what she did, as long as that was not threatening his physical safety or the safety of others. She posted a pic of a horrific bruise. Is he trying to claim that there is more to it than her side of the story? Well, duh. He's still responsible for what *he* did.
Posted by Noel on January 3, 2012 at 4:41 pm | permalink |
See, you don't know if that bruised body is hers.
You don't know if that farmer's guy hit her. She said he did, but how do you know what really happened?
Where somebody else read the previous comments as showing concern for victims of domestic violence, she interpreted that as hatred. It's an interesting perception of reality.
Posted by Working on January 4, 2012 at 4:18 am | permalink |
Well. Your last post seems like a set-up. You only gave readers one side of the story so naturally people reacted in a one-sided manner. And now it feels like you've reprimanded readers for their one-sided reactions but you still have not provided the full story. What IS the full story?
And also based on the more accurate definition of "Domestic Violence" provided by one of the commenters, (I think most of the comments on the last post where probably addressing DV and not "violence in a fucked up relationship") now would you agree that zero tolerance for domestic violence is wrong?
Posted by Naria on January 3, 2012 at 4:14 pm | permalink |
You've probably heard this comment a million times, but I don't know – maybe a million and one will be help.
You don't make the Farmer be violent. The Farmer is violent because he lacks coping strategies to handle conflict in a more productive way.
Saying you 'aren't to blame' doesn't limit your agency, because no matter what you do the Farmer makes his own choices in how to respond to it. You could be a raving termagant to live with, but that doesn't mean the only possible response is physical violence.
I don't know if the best plan is to stay or leave. But I do think the one on whom the onus of learning new behaviour is on, is the one who is violent. Because I don't think anyone can live with someone and never get on their nerves. There just has to be a contract that you'll try not to, and if you do it won't get violent.
Posted by Tamm on January 3, 2012 at 4:58 pm | permalink |
Penny,
After 10 years, I can't read anymore. Life isn't all roses and lollipops, but it isn't this.
Goodbye,
Dale
Posted by Dale on January 3, 2012 at 5:17 pm | permalink |
Everyone has an opinion and so you do. Do what you think is best for you and your family. You and the Farmer are going to work this out one way or the other. Peace to you Penelope.
Posted by Alexandra on January 3, 2012 at 6:18 pm | permalink |
Actually, in the situation you described with your parents, your father still shouldn't have hit your mother. He could have walked away at that particular moment, get psychiatric help for her, divorce her…. Violence is really never the answer.
I think you grew up making internally making excuses for your parents' behavior, though you thought you recognized how their abuse damaged you. For example, I can talk about how my father's alcoholism damaged parts of my childhood, but if an outsider tried to say something negative about him to me, my first reaction would be to defend him.
Because you're used to the making-excuses cycle, you will continue doing that in your relationships as an adult.
Good luck. The mentality behind your post is completely wrong, but I'm sure it's hard to try to change the way you view the world as an adult.
Posted by Elle on January 3, 2012 at 6:40 pm | permalink |
I respect your right to stay in your marriage and work on this situation if that is what you want. However, I can't imagine that reporting the very personal details of your relationship on a blog will repair your marriage. That's what personal diaries are for.
If you are 50% of the problem, as you've stated, then I encourage you to seek intense psychiatric help and soon. You can not change the Farmer but you can make changes in yourself. Recovery from childhood and now adult abuse will take time.
I pray you will have the solace that you seek in 2012.
Posted by Julia on January 3, 2012 at 8:01 pm | permalink |
As insightful as you are on so many issues, I'm a little disappointed you didn't conclude your post by specifically noting that the only person you can change is yourself. You skirt around the issue and even make some oblique references to this, but why not come right out and say it!
I think the thing that is most disturbing about an incident like your most recent one is that the real question is not hypothesizing about whether or not staying is the better option. I think the real question is really a two-parter. First, can you change your behavior to make it less objectionable/offensive to your spouse. Secondly, if you can in fact make the commitment to change, and do in fact change, what impact will it have on your husband? Will your efforts to "meet half way" actually affect his behavior in a positive fashion or will there just be other things you do that he finds objectionable and use them as an excuse for more unacceptable behavior.
If you can in fact be objective, and I assume you can since your relationship with the farmer has lasted several years now, you should be able to predict his behaviors and responses to a variety of stimuli. If you realistically accept the fact that he will only find other behaviors on your part as new excuses to respond in an unacceptable manner, that you are only fooling yourself if you decide to stay together in spite of this.
Having been married more than 40 years, I fully realize that I sometimes exhibit behaviors that aren't well received by my significant other, but I know if I eliminate the behavior, the relationship will stabilize again. By the same token, I often overlook things that in the past I might not have been able to slough off, but am not afraid to address things I find particularly objectionable also. The give and take works. The all give, no take approach doesn't.
As a final note, I have learned to limit my emotional approach to situations and try to limit my "battles" to not only the ones I think I can "win", but also the ones that are actually important
I've read your blog(s) for eight years now and have found many of your observations/insights useful, especially in the context of my two daughters and their work experiences. I hope you can find an answer to this dilemma. Ultimately, you are the only one who can actually answer the relevant questions as to how to proceed.
Thanks again and good luck!
Posted by Jim Bjerkan on January 3, 2012 at 8:23 pm | permalink |
"'It's not your fault' completely limits a woman's choices, because you are saying that she is powerless to control the situation. And if you tell every woman "it's not your fault" then they can't improve. How do women get better at not creating a violent household? Probably by changing their behavior."
Personal responsibility does not extend to someone else's violent behavior. It takes just one partner to create a violent household, and it doesn't matter whether the non-violent partner "improves." Whatever that means.
You have chosen to stay with the Farmer, so you must live with the consequences. I just hope this does not end in disaster for you and your sons.
Posted by Jennie on January 3, 2012 at 9:06 pm | permalink |
On an entirely different note… why did you stop your MAILBAG section? I kinda like it.
Posted by Jhie on January 3, 2012 at 9:41 pm | permalink |
Don't these posts bother your ex? And what kind of situation your kids are in?
Posted by Susan on January 3, 2012 at 10:15 pm | permalink |
I won't offer any advice. I wish you all the best in coping with a difficult situation.
Posted by Stephanie on January 3, 2012 at 10:26 pm | permalink |
Some of you people make me sick, you think its ok to beat someone because they nag you? That is just GROSS!! If this woman has problems it most likely stems from the abuse. I don't care how much someone nags, the best thing to do is leave. Thank god I found a good man that I don't hav to nag, he does things without my asking. As for the woman who writes this blog she needs help and her kids need to be taken to safety. So you mom threw paint on the wall and ruined the floor, you dad was in the wrong for putting his hands on her. Penelope, you don't deserve to be hit just because you talk to much. I really hope you get help one day soon! Nobody has a right to put their hands on anyone else be man or woman. It seems to me you write this blog for two reasons to help yourself make excuses for the farmer and to get attention, well you do really well at both.As for the person who said they feel sorry for the farmer I bet you an abuser youself aren't you? I will never read this blog again as it makes me sick. Most of the people who read this see to get off on hearing about this woman's pain. Yeah I bet the majority of you who read this are or have abused someone. Good luck to all of you sickos.
Posted by Luckysgirl06 on January 3, 2012 at 10:52 pm | permalink |
Seriously? You publish a photo of an injury, projecting the thought of a vulnerable person (yes, this is what the photo of naked person implies – someone without protection for those who can get over the sex aspect), you write "I think I'm dying. " and expect people to NOT tell you to get out?
Posted by redrock on January 3, 2012 at 11:19 pm | permalink |
totally agree
Posted by Chuck on January 4, 2012 at 9:16 am | permalink |
Yep. I guess her relationships with the Farmer, her ex, her in-laws and her parents weren't providing enough of an audience so she's unleashing the crazy on her readers.
Posted by Can't stop watching on January 4, 2012 at 4:25 pm | permalink |
My phone auto corrected the your and turned it to you for some reason. Oh well you know what I meant.
Posted by Luckysgirl06 on January 3, 2012 at 11:22 pm | permalink |
I'm surprised no one has posted this gem from the inimitable The Last Psychiatrist:
"Penelope Trunk has a history of sexual abuse by her father. She has a pattern of intense, unstable relationships; a history of self-cutting, bulimia; is emotionally labile and reactive; and her primary defense mechanism is pretty obviously splitting, i.e. things are all good or they are all bad.
Trunk says she has Asperger's, and maybe she does, but what I've described is "borderline personality disorder." BPD is not a description of behavior exactly, it is a description of an adaptive coping strategy. In other words, people persist with BPD because it works.
"Works" has a limited definition for borderline: prevention of abandonment."
He/she also agrees that no one can tell you when to leave your spouse, but I still think you should.
Posted by Tracy on January 4, 2012 at 12:00 am | permalink |
Hi, Penelope, I had to write a response to this post because while I feel strongly that while you are completely right that this is your life and your choice to make, I want to point out that:
1.) Zero tolerance for domestic violence is important because violence that is tolerated by the abuser implies implicit permission that it is OK. By staying, you don't penalize the abuser for his transgression. If the consequence for abuse is not immediate, swift and irrevocable, then it's as though you are implicitly saying violence is OK. You choose to stay because you love this person enough to risk the return of violence, when actually, you are making a choice between leaving and getting hit.
2.) I can say this, as someone who grew up in a non-violent household, beating someone for talking too much is not a normal, healthy response.
3.) Because you grew up in a violent household, I think it far more likely that you were socialized to pick violent men to fall in love with than you somehow possess the knack of turning perfectly normal fellows into abusers.
4.) Please get out for your children. You're staying with this man means your children are growing up in a violent household, continuing a cycle of violence into the future.
Posted by diana on January 4, 2012 at 1:45 am | permalink |
I admire your risk taking and your notion of responsibility. If I understand it you are engaged in a high risk play in which the possible outcomes are success: everyone – Penelope, Farmer, two kids – lives happily ever after; and failure: another fucked up marriage lurches towards disaster, two kids who, if they aren't dead, will be leading screwed up lives and lining the pockets of therapists for ever (and maybe even blogging about it) and a Farmer who, if he hasn't taken his shotgun to himself may well have taken it to you and the kids. You go girl; roll those dice.
Maybe your responsibility extends to both outcomes. And everything you have told us leads to conclusion that success is less likely than failure; and what you have been successful in so far – startups – has little in common with what you have been spectacularly unsuccessful at – human relationships.
It would be interesting to know what the people who are most likely to be affected by your "responsible" choice to stay with it but on your terms – the Farmer, the kids – think about it and whether or not they buy into it. The way I see it, making decisions that can seriously influence people's lives without consulting them is the opposite of responsible. Tell us what responsibility is, Penelope.
Posted by alanbelk on January 4, 2012 at 3:07 am | permalink |
Zero tolerance for domestic violence is as wrong as zero tolerance to drinking alcohol is for recovering alcoholics.
You are the Charlie Sheen of the online self-help world.
Posted by Working on January 4, 2012 at 4:25 am | permalink |
Penelope,
I am a domestic violence therapist and I have been in abusive relationships before. Your post above is chock full of indications of battered woman syndrome, a sad and hasty backtrack on the post where you posted the injury from the Farmer. I am also baffled as to what reactions you expectedâ¦you should know well enough that not everyone is going to coddle you or give you the exact response you were hoping for, whatever that was!
"You, maybe, are unable to fall in love with a guy who is violent. Good for you. But do you have to hate women who aren't like you?" People who are not in violent relationships do not hate you Penelope, they are baffled and angry that you continue to make excuses for the Farmer, and also angry that you continue to expose your children to violent and criminal behavior.
"The high-and-mightiness that emanates from the public discussion of domestic violence is breathtaking. Everyone is an expert. Everyone knows what's right." I'm sorry you feel that way but the reality is that most people have the common sense to realize that when someone is living with someone who chooses to be violent, that person being victimized NEEDS to get out. It's not EASY to leave and the help of a therapist as well as a proper support network is needed, but it's the RIGHT and SAFE thing to do.
"Or is it better to stay because the benefits from things improving, although unlikely, are huge?" You answered the question yourself when you said "unlikely"⦠and it is a serious indication that you need professional help when your thinking is so distorted that you think continued exposure to violence (for both yourself and your children) is in any way justifiable by POTENTIAL/ NOT-REAL-YET BENEFIT!
"I can improve my own half and see what happens. Have you been to couple's therapy? There's a saying that a marriage is a gear system. If one gear changes, all the gears change" This works for normal relationships as any therapist worth her salt will reliably inform you that couple's therapy is NOT done when one partner is violent. This is because:
1. The violent partner will continue to blame his behavior thereby re-victimizing the victim over and over again.
2. It presents a safety risk to both the therapist and the victim.
3. Violent/abusive partners need to commit to changing their behavior ON THEIR OWN and BY TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS, something that they are designed NOT to do.
"I am statistically likely to create a violent household. Here's another thing: You don't know what I did leading up to the bruise in the photo." Oh yes, do tell, since you are obviously partly to blame for another person's violent outburst, because you knowâ¦violent and criminal behavior is justifiable.
"If we blame other people, we are always running" Actually Penelope, you are deluding yourself with another lie you designed to justify staying in the relationship. Calling someone "responsible" for his actions and refusing to be blamed yourself for it is NOT blaming, it's being wise enough to make a decision to save your life.
"People like what I say because I show them how they can fix anything when they take responsibility for fixing it. That's what I truly believeâ¦And that's why I'm staying with the Farmer" How are you going to fix someone and something that is based on psychotic, neurotic, controlling and abusive behavior Penelope? The reason you're staying with the farmer is because you have deep seated issues that distort your views of safety, love and your self-worth. And THAT's why you're staying with the Farmer.
The violence will continue while you continue to exhaust yourself concocting these stories and justifications, I hope and pray for your sake and the sake of your children that it does not take a death to help you to see clearly.
Love is not supposed to hurt. Period.
Posted by Zee on January 4, 2012 at 10:00 am | permalink |
Good post. Hopefully Penelope will read this. The only way this post is not spot on is if the alleged abuse by the farmer is made up. In that case Penelope needs counseling of a different sort.
Posted by Chuck on January 4, 2012 at 10:26 am | permalink |
I'm considering that possibility as well.
I don't usually read this blog, I came here following a link from Slate's XX Factor. Posts about non-career issues will obviously draw a wider audience and links than regular career advice.
The first post featured a dramatic (and, yes, titillating in its way) photo of the abuse. Then this post, that attempts to pull the rug out from under the assumptions the first post seemed designed to induce.
And then we'll have "started a conversation" about domestic violence, and maybe some readers who came over for the domestic violence discussion will stick around for the career advice.
I'm not saying this is what's going on; I'm acknowledging the possibility. Obviously, publicly and falsely accusing someone of domestic violence in order to draw traffic to one's website is a terrible thing to do. And so is pushing your wife to cause a bruise.
The truth may be somewhere in the middle. But there's a chance we're all being suckered.
Posted by JohnMcG on January 4, 2012 at 10:37 am | permalink |
The Farmer and you seem to agree exactly on the appropriate reaction to a lot of stress and upset.
You hurt yourself (lamp over head).
He hurts you.
Everyone agrees hurting you is okay. It's not. IMO that he wasn't horrified and upset when you hurt yourself was a red flag all on it's own.
Women get better at not creating a violent household by not tolerating it. Research says that while men claim to have so much difficulty reading a woman's non explicit "no" on a date – men are just as good as women in reading a bosses non explicit "no" in a social situation. Violent men don't hit their co workers. If all men who resort to physical action were unable to find a romantic partner that tolerated it the vast majority of them would change.
Posted by Victoria on January 4, 2012 at 10:09 am | permalink |
A small number of people do get off on drama and bruises, but the smart ones take care of their and their partners' safety. If you're one of them, you need to keep your submission safe, sane, and consensual – and never submit to someone who *doesn't* respect that when he wants your submission.
There are some very good guidelines on keeping the drama safe, sane, and consensual at http://www.rcdc.org/articles/tamar-ssc.html
Posted by Heidi on January 4, 2012 at 11:16 am | permalink |
Maybe it's time to switch to a career in photography.
Posted by Celeste on January 4, 2012 at 1:03 pm | permalink |
It's tough getting old and having to be happy/OK/not-interesting for the sake of your kids, but I think that is really what you are having the most difficulty with.
Stay or go, but be boring, not-interesting in your personal family life for a while, even if it means losing a piece of you for a while, or, forever. It would be best for your kids.
40 is not the new 20. It's still 40. (Not being mean, I'm there, too …)
Posted by Amy D. on January 4, 2012 at 1:39 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
You are someone that I don't know. I find your posts around this issue impossible to ignore. I'm posting as a way to let you know my thoughts (and perhaps to silence any of my own nagging about what exactly can be done by those of us with no connection to you outside of your blog).
I think that the situation is perhaps too complex, that you're too emotionally-invested and that it's too soon for you to have a healthy perspective on this. I could be wrong.
Trying to change your perspective by "zooming out" makes sense. However, you are not doing yourself any favors by trying to align your personal situation with some general idea of abused women (with or without choices). I also think that, in many ways, it is much easier for you to come here, post your reactions and defend yourself against internet opinion than it is to sort exactly what you ACTUALLY should do about your situation.
I have complete empathy for you. This can't be an easy thing to sort.
It is understandable how complex the cause-and-effect of our personal relations can be and that each of us can simultaneously be aggressor and victim.
In the immediate, you need support of quality (people that know and love you, not anonymous voices) and qualified help (a therapist that can listen to all of your thoughts and emotions, conflicted or otherwise, without judgement).
In the immediate, it wouldn't be a bad idea for you and your partner to have a bit of space apart. I know this may be a hard pill to swallow. Think of it as a bit of breathing room so you can see your way to coming back together stronger.
In the immediate, you need to create a place of safety and calmness for your children (and by extension, you).
Posted by Unsolicited(?) Advice on January 4, 2012 at 1:42 pm | permalink |
I see your point Penelope BUT all of this comes across as you trying to create controversy and drive traffic to your blog by blogging about something no one else would. I'm not saying its bad to talk about it because I think it is good but I think it's also really irritating how you post a picture etc and then go on to have a follow up scolding post to your readers telling them they dont know the whole story blah blah. I mean what kind of responses did you expect to recieve?
Posted by Meredith on January 4, 2012 at 2:33 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
There are many good comments here, but I am compelled to write in. I just started following you, and of course, your honesty, your brutal honesty, stand out. What I find interesting is that I don't think you are being honest with yourself about your relationship or yourself. From my point of view, it sounds like you should not be in this relationship. It's all well and good to say that you can work on your relationship. And I see that you try to be introspective. However, it also sounds like you've been working on it for some time. To me this says, it is broken. Truly broken. Like window that someone's taken a crowbar to. It can't be fixed. This observation does not place blame on either you or the farmer. It simply states the obvious. And if your relationship can't be fixed, why bother trying? That's insanity, which is what it sounds like your relationship with the farmer causes. Yes, you make goad him and be too demanding or something. But something tells me he'd be hitting someone else too. Again, my point is that your relationship with the Farmer doesn't work.
Get out of the relationship and work on yourself. Then maybe you can have a healthy one. Or if it's really meant to be, which I never believe in, but I'll indulge the idea, you and the Farmer will get back together after time apart.
If you and Ryan P were able to figure out a way to work together over time, then I would say you should have figured out a way to have a healthy relationship with the Farmer by now.
Be honest with yourself. You are with your readers.
Suzanne
Posted by Suzanne on January 4, 2012 at 3:18 pm | permalink |
PS, sorry for the typos. I was going so quickly.
Posted by Suzanne on January 4, 2012 at 3:20 pm | permalink |
It is surprising to me that many of the comments, which suggest that leaving is the only option to ensure the health and safety of children, fail to consider the effect of the mother's happiness on her children.
Whether or not you believe it's best for the writer to stay in this situation, it seems incredibly unfair that the actions available to her should be limited, arbitrarily, to some narrow idea of what's best for the kids. There are so many ways to mess up children; thank goodness they're so resilient. I believe this rhetoric can be used as another kind of violence against women: the idea that the trump card for women's choices is 'what's best' for her children, even at the expense of her own happiness and intellectual well-being. Women who fail to conform to 'what's best' for the kids can be at risk of being painted immoral, even when the best thing for the kids (and herself) is nebulous and contingent.
I think this post is a call for troubling our oftentimes rigid, lazy categories of right and wrong. They never get us anywhere except elitist and superficial vitriol. By bringing to light what many of us have considered silently in our own lives–whether the binary rules of morality are really lived so simply– the author brings into the light of day a discussion that is too often silenced.
Posted by Olivia on January 4, 2012 at 3:24 pm | permalink |
1. I have not been among those offering advice, but my suspicion is that many of those advising PT to do what's best for the children would be offering the same advice to a man in a similar situation.
Parenting is an important obligation. That "kids are resilient" is not an excuse to put them through trial after trial.
And, BTW, "kids are resilient" seems like the kind of un-nuanced generality you claim to hate so much.
2. While it is true that each situation is different and has factors that outsiders can't imagine, there are also certain moral absolutes. One of those that I am quite comfortable holding on to is that is is morally wrong for a man to physically harm his wife through a deliberate action on his part. You may call that rigid and lazy; I think it's basic decency.
–
I don't claim to know what the best course of action PT is, in large part because I'm not sure how reliable a narrator PT is of the events in question. But I don't think it's absurd for someone to conclude from what has been presented that this is a bad environment for PT and her children.
Posted by JohnMcG on January 4, 2012 at 3:33 pm | permalink |
I agree with John's very succinct and cogent response.
Posted by Chuck on January 4, 2012 at 3:52 pm | permalink |
What does putting children in foster care have to do with you? You're not destitute. You don't beat kids. Your husband beats the shit out of you. It's like saying you can't leave because it would make Newt Gingrich constipated.
What does marriage have to do with a startup? Marriage isn't a bank account. There's no equity. There's no borrowing money. No-one invests venture capital in a marriage. Every day in marriage is like day 1. You need the same attitude you had on day 1 or it doesn't work.
Posted by Heroine Worshiper on January 4, 2012 at 5:43 pm | permalink |
Penelope, you may be right that you can change your half. But please remember this: you can ONLY change your half. That is the most you can change. Which means you cannot change everything.
The reason that people make statements like "zero tolerance for domestic abuse" is because you are living in an extreme situation, and you need to hear the extreme things. You are an extreme person.
At the same time, the decision about what to do has to come from you. If you are not ready to have zero tolerance for domestic abuse, then you will stay until you do.
So I will say something else that you may or may not be able to hear at this point: look on this as an investment in a business. Is the business performing reliably? Should you continue to invest in a business if it is not performing reliably
Posted by KateNonymous on January 4, 2012 at 7:04 pm | permalink |
I've only skimmed thru comments. Penelope, why are you putting yourself thru reading so much criticism. Are the supportive posts worth it?
I hope things work out for you!
Sending positive energy!
Posted by Tanya on January 4, 2012 at 9:25 pm | permalink |
You are an adult, right or wrong, you can make your own choices. Your kids can't, and your choices are teaching them how to act, how to deal with conflict, and, whether you think so or not, you and the Farmer are teaching them that violence is okay. Even if he never lays a hand on you again, the damage this has already done to your kids is huge. Your choices might also be putting them in danger – what if they push the Farmer too far one day and get hit or shoved. Does any child deserve that, even the slightest possibility of that, and how can you take that risk with your own children?
I really hope this is all for attention and traffic, because if not, the only true victims here are your children.
Posted by Jodie on January 4, 2012 at 9:58 pm | permalink |
I commented on the other blog and now I am on this one. Please don't be angry at other women for leaving when they were abused. Most women cannot cope with that kind of life. You have proven with your blogs that you are a tough woman, good for you. But, it's no longer about YOU. It's about your kids. Let's not have two more children growing up in society who think it's alright to fight all the time. Our neigbors have raised a boy – 14 years old in the same situation you have. He recently went on a crime spree, he robbed us, robbed 4 of our neighbors, stole weapons and robbed someone at gunpoint. All because his parents fight like roosters and crows and he now seeks attention via violence. Think about it. He put an entire neighborhood in constant fear because he has issues with his parent's violence. Do you want to be bailing your darling little children out of jail in a few years? Or do you want them to be well adjusted? It's ALL up to YOU!
Posted by MissPiggy on January 4, 2012 at 10:16 pm | permalink |
PS, I don't agree that the Farmer might hit someone else if you are not there. I simply think that you both bring out the worst in each other and that is something that cannot be fixed! If you need advice on how to live the rest of your life building 'good' relationships and 'choosing well' you have a large community to help you with that. Stop spinning some crap that a 'probably messed up shrink' is feeding you!
Posted by MissPiggy on January 4, 2012 at 10:24 pm | permalink |
anyone with common sense knows a blog may not accurately describe reality….thank you diana
Posted by Belinda on January 4, 2012 at 10:30 pm | permalink |
Back to the farm? Good for you. I tried to wade through the steaming pile of mostly useless comments. I got bored.
Great two posts, though. Got a lot of people thinking/writing about domestic troubles. Which means, as a communicator, you're doing a great job.
I'm not worried about you. Crazy relationships are part of being crazy. I guess I'll toss a couple of pesos in the pool and say:
As a guy who has always been attracted to crazy women, I have found that sometimes I must "remove myself from the situation" when I sense that her craziness is making me angry enough to be violent. BUT the Farmer can't remove himself, because he has to tend to his animals and other farm stuff. So the 'safe place' or stupid 'mancave' idea isn't all that stupid. Ditto with the 'safe word' idea.
And — don't get in a man's face. That's normal commo for woman-to-woman, but with men, it triggers a fight-or-flight response. Just sayin'. And cut out the passive-aggressive shit. I'm a farmboy, and farm domestic life has a pretty clear-cut division of labor. Farmwives cook the food, clean the clothes, take care of the kids and SHUT THE FUCK UP. It's not that hard a job, with today's labor-saving machinery. But those are the job requirements.
I think you'll do just fine.
Posted by Another Perspective on January 5, 2012 at 1:01 am | permalink |
its nice to be here…congratulation…
Posted by arijack on January 5, 2012 at 2:00 am | permalink |
Penelope –
Finding it hard to read your posts about the Farmer because I feel like I'm reliving my own past: Meet what you think is great guy, move far away (in my case, to a different country) to be with him, change your whole life because you think it's going to be an exciting challenge, etc.
Then he shoves you to the ground for some bs reason and you're so stunned that you think it's more complicated than it really is ("we have a complicated relationship"; "we're both troubled people", etc.).
It happens a couple more times, you get a few bruises, he says it's because you're flawed, you go to couples' counselling which is next to no help, blah blah blah. You feel alone because there's so much cognitive dissonance going on in your head that you're just happy when a week goes by without a disaster of some kind. It's amazing how quickly the abnormal becomes normal.
But it doesn't get better; it only gets worse. Until suddenly you're fleeing to a hotel and they won't give you a room because you look like you've just been through a woodchipper backwards.
If you can't accept that he's the one with the problem, then just accept that this relationship is not working and is not going to get better. It's just not. Get out, get some counselling for yourself, and know that eventually there will be a better, healthier relationship for you in the future. I'm 10 years out of my situation now and I promise you, the first step is just to leave.
Posted by sgw555 on January 5, 2012 at 6:50 am | permalink |
Your post and the comments were interesting. I have no wisdom on this issue or your relationship. I only hope for more times like the pig sale and other times where happiness and love dominate the agenda instead of angst. May the coming months reward you for your choices and find increased peace and understanding. The key is to find that place where two operate as one so that what you do to each other you do to yourself. Then it becomes likely that the actions will be measured and loving.
Posted by Don B. on January 5, 2012 at 6:57 am | permalink |
I have a hard time figuring out what's real and what's not in your postings. I found you way back in your Yahoo Finance days. I confess I read for the entertainment value, I thought then that most of your "advice" was pretty horrible – the yoga poses in the bathroom, I spit my coffee out on that one.
As someone who actually did climb the corporate ladder, it's always been pretty obvious that you didn't. But you're not the first and certainly wouldn't be the last expert that has no real expertise.
Every few months when I have insomnia, I pop over to see what insanity you're peddling. I have to say that you're really bringing things to a new low. I've seen too many of your readers lap up your words and the idea that some one is staying in an abusive relationship so they can empower themselves. Really?????
Posted by Sarah on January 5, 2012 at 7:29 am | permalink |
Penelope,
I just wanted to say that nothing is ever Black/White. There are always shades of grey. There are the ways of viewing and seeing that we distort all the time and the only way to unravel them is to travel through the deep waters with eyes not shaded from the relationship nuances.
The only thing I have to offer is prayer for all and one small bit of advice to find a guide (therapist, spiritual director, trusted friend) that can dialogue with all parties involved to help you traverse these deep waters.
blessings,
David
Posted by david on January 5, 2012 at 8:33 am | permalink |
Yo, Penelope. You're awesome and I can see why you're defending your position. However, an anecdote:
My brother and I grew up in a sometimes violent household.
3 years ago, I got drunk and punched my bf. Hard. It hurts to type this, no matter how mentally cruel he was to me, I degraded myself to the lowest level by doing this. I don't even understand how he can still be civil to me after the break up.
1 year ago, I called my 26-year old (I'm 30) brother a prick, and he literally threw me headfirst down the (cement) steps of my mother's house. I rolled into a tiny ball and kept my head up so injuries were thankfully minor. We haven't spoken since, and being in the same room as him triggers anxiety attacks. I literally struggle to breath until he leaves the premises. Sometimes I wish he would disappear off the face of this earth. He is a dark cloud for me at all family functions.
No matter the amount of therapy, life couching, meditation, us two children are damaged goods.
Posted by Mel on January 5, 2012 at 9:45 am | permalink |
I find this post fascinating and more realistic than the world would have you believe. For example Google anything related to marital instability and you get the black and white version of its him not you. Run don't walk. Unless you've lived it how does anyone know how they'll handle abuse or conflict?
Couple's counseling is really hard, most don't bother they walk away and they repeat the cycle. Or they participate but don't fully invest. Self-growth, change, giving up on harmful behavior requires a great deal of strength and to me a lot more than walking away.
What's best is specific to an individual and taking responsibility for half of the situation is huge! I think it's the moment when you go from being a victim to being aware. That awareness breeds change or at least concise enlightenment. But again if you haven't walked this path then my comments probably sound absurd.
Keep writing, no matter what. Also you may want to look into a program called Celebrate Recovery, its faith based in Christianity but the goal is awareness and growth. Just tossing that out there.
Posted by K on January 5, 2012 at 10:29 am | permalink |
Penny,
Okay, so I lied, I can't stay away after all these years. You are like a friend that I care about but who is constantly in the midst of drama. I just like you and want what is best for you and your family.
To the point, you and your family need someone to be there for an extended period of time, to serve as a constant counselor/peacemaker/voice of sanity.
Sort of like Melissa lived with you, but with the understanding that they serve a peacekeeping/mediating/therapist role, until you both learn to conduct the relationship in a way that is not destructive.
My2centsworth.
Posted by Dale on January 5, 2012 at 10:48 am | permalink |
Hmmmmmm – Well call me crazy, but this woman
http://curiousfarmer.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/008.jpg
And the one with the nifty little bruise don't really seem to have the same proportions. I feel incredibly sorry for all the people who believe you.
Posted by Sarah on January 5, 2012 at 11:15 am | permalink |
[I'm the domestic violence counsellor who posted earlier] Giving advice or even airing our opinions at this point to Penelope is completely pointless…I don't necessarily believe that her situation will always be hopeless, but at this point…definitely pointless. I read some of her other posts, both relationship and non-relationship oriented just to get a feel for her thought-trend and "Penelople" is living in a carefully and intricately constructed dream world.
She is addicted to drama and the dopamine rush of the seductive make-up/honeymoon phase which inevitably comes after a violent episode. If she would take an ounce of her own advice, her research would show her that this honeymoon phase reduces and eventually, in time, disappears entirely until all you're left with are the eggshell-violence phases.
Penelope spent her entire childhood learning that love hurts like hell, leaves you battered and bruised and that the female is to blame for the violence from the male partner. She is literally wired to stay in this relationship UNTIL she makes the hard decision to leave…her internal-alarm/red flag system for danger has been dismantled by years of making excuses for her father's, and now her partner's violence. She posts (whether truthful or not is up for debate) in her moments of shock just after an abusive episode and then her old conditioning kicks in and she justifies her (unhealthy) decisions while berating her readers for responding realistically to her shock and fear.
This seems intensely driven by a pathological need to play on the reader's emotions as well as a selfish need for tonnes of attention. I will say the same thing I have said to clients…until you accept that this is the relationship and give up trying to "help" him and help yourself, this is doomed to repeat itself…OR we are doomed to keep falling for possibly falsely concocted stories that are geared towards feeding Penelope with her attention-rush.
Posted by Zee on January 5, 2012 at 12:11 pm | permalink |
Whatever you do, as long as you are living with him, you really ought to plan on him hitting you again. Have a place to go to get away from him – like a room with a door you can lock from the inside that he can't open with a key. Always be closer to the exit when you are in the room with him. Stuff like that. Carry mace. Learn some basic self-defense so you can get away from him and run to safety
The hope that he won't hit you again is your real enemy, not him.
Posted by Wim Chase on January 5, 2012 at 11:37 am | permalink |
Hi Penelope, I can fully understand that you are desesperately trying to convince yourself that staying with your husband is an option that perhaps will work for you now, but in your heart you know that is not true. You know? we women trick ourselves in a way that permits us to believe that we can save a marriage, keep a husband, stay in a house, but deep down we know a truth that even us dont want to acknowledge. You and your mother had options but better yet, your father and the farmer had options, other than hiting their wives. Your mother´s reaction is one of profound pain and your´s come from a mental condition that needs treatment, those men could have reacted seeking help for their wives and acting like reasonable, loving and mature individuals. My first husband was violent and abusive and had a mistress through all our 11 years of marriage. I was 28 and in so much pain!!! It was my parents love and help that permitted me to go back to law sachool and overcome all the pain and frustration. I couldn´t leave because I had decided to go back to law school and till I graduated there was little I could do to get out so my mom had to put up with my anger and resentment and she was so understanding and loving and patient that I could overcome my anger and fear and finish law school. She helped a lot with my daughters too. My point is that love always helps and that there is always an option, my mom could have decided to stay out of the problem and not help me!!! I am 61 now and have practiced law for 34 years, I have 4 grandchildren and have married and divorced twice since then but I think you should never let anyone think you can do anything to prevent a violent person from harming you, believe it or not, you have to stay until you figure your way out because you husband will not change until he is too old to hit you and you deserve a better life, you will surely find it in another farm. Excuse my english but I am from Venezuela and english is not my first language. Be good and be happy.
Posted by gioconda on January 5, 2012 at 12:12 pm | permalink |
I think perhaps the most upsetting thing about all these posts is the "domestic violence counselor" who posted twice. First, deciding that The Farmer is psychotic, based on next to zero information about him. Then, finally taking the time to read Penelope's blog, deciding that Penelope is pathological. I mean, this sort of thing is fine for a casual blog reader entertaining herself by judging others (I totally admit to doing this), but if you're a professional and introduce yourself as such, you're just alerting all of us to the sham that is contemporary counseling/therapy in America today. People walk into these offices in crisis, and what they tend to hear is "you're pathological, you're damaged, you need to leave or something is wrong with you, and, oh, your relationship is rocky and violent because 'neither of you is willing to be vulnerable'."
Ugh. This profession is totally useless (at best).
Posted by irenev30 on January 5, 2012 at 12:18 pm | permalink |
"I think perhaps the most upsetting thing about all these posts is the "domestic violence counselor" who posted twice"
Some of the posters here agree that the violence described is justified and my post was the most upsetting? I find that odd and bizaare.
"First, deciding that The Farmer is psychotic, based on next to zero information about him" My comment was based on Penelope's description of his behaviour, whether or not her account is true, my comment is relavant to someone who has lost touch with reality, and the correct term IS psychotic.
"Then, finally taking the time to read Penelope's blog, deciding that Penelope is pathological" Pathological means chronic sickness that gets worse over time…if Penelope's descriptions of herself are accurate then her behaviour is indeed pathological.
I mean, this sort of thing is fine for a casual blog reader entertaining herself by judging others (I totally admit to doing this), but if you're a professional and introduce yourself as such, you're just alerting all of us to the sham that is contemporary counseling/therapy in America today"
I live in the Caribbean where the incidents of fatalities resulting from DV is alarmingly high.
"People walk into these offices in crisis, and what they tend to hear is "you're pathological, you're damaged, you need to leave or something is wrong with you, and, oh, your relationship is rocky and violent because 'neither of you is willing to be vulnerable'"
I would like a link to your studies showing that clients "tend to hear this" since this is againt all of my experience and practise. Saying that to a client is utter bullsh*t and no therapist worth her salt would say that. You obviously did not read or understand my post.
"Ugh. This profession is totally useless (at best" This is an insult to all the women whose lives have been helped and even saved by therapists like me, including an insult to my own therapist so many years ago who was there to provide support when it was time to leave a violent relationship. Your post reeks of a lack of understanding and misses the point entirely…that if Peneloepe's account is true and she continues along this path, nothing will change.
Posted by Zee on January 5, 2012 at 1:22 pm | permalink |
It just occured to me that this is Penelope posting to rip the idea of seeking professional help…amazing that out of more than 400 posts mine is the most upsetting for calling it like it is! Still waiting to see your evidence for what people "tend to hear" from therapists…while I am not American and don't practice there I am hard pressed to believe that to be true. This sounds like a comment from someone who has no idea what good therapy is like.
Posted by Zee on January 5, 2012 at 1:28 pm | permalink |
Zee, we can go there. Your original post is my evidence of the sorts of encounters I find so useless and harmful with therapists.
My original claim was:
"People walk into these offices in crisis, and what they tend to hear is "you're pathological, you're damaged, you need to leave or something is wrong with you, and, oh, your relationship is rocky and violent because 'neither of you is willing to be vulnerable'."
Zee asks:
"I would like a link to your studies showing that clients "tend to hear this" since this is againt all of my experience and practise. Saying that to a client is utter bullsh*t and no therapist worth her salt would say that. You obviously did not read or understand my post."
well, I agree no therapist worth her salt would say that. Let's see if I read or understood your post.
Quotes from Zee's previous post:
"the reality is that most people have the common sense to realize that when someone is living with someone who chooses to be violent, that person being victimized NEEDS to get out. It's not EASY to leave and the help of a therapist as well as a proper support network is needed, but it's the RIGHT and SAFE thing to do."
In other words, Most people have the common sense, but you, poor damaged woman, don't. You are not doing the RIGHT thing.
"your thinking is so distorted that you think continued exposure to violence (for both yourself and your children) is in any way justifiable by POTENTIAL/ NOT-REAL-YET BENEFIT!"
In other words, your thinking is distorted, and in fact I need to yell in all caps to snap you out of your distorted thinking.
Not only are you distorted, but you are delusional and damaged:
"Actually Penelope, you are deluding yourself with another lie you designed to justify staying in the relationship."
"The reason you're staying with the farmer is because you have deep seated issues that distort your views of safety, love and your self-worth. And THAT's why you're staying with the Farmer."
In other words, there is something wrong with you.
"The violence will continue while you continue to exhaust yourself concocting these stories and justifications, I hope and pray for your sake and the sake of your children that it does not take a death to help you to see clearly."
In other words, if you don't do what I say, you will die (and so will your children).
–
And, Penelope herself reported that her couples counselor (also a specialist in violence, evidently) tells them that their problems stem from the fact that neither of them is willing to be vulnerable. Evidently she reads Cosmo quizzes to learn how to diagnose relationship troubles.
–
Again, I expect these kinds of judgments from random blog commenters, and from judgmental and determined friends or relatives. But too many people walk into a doctor's office, paying whatever $100 therapy fee, and hear this sort of amateurish Dr. Phil tough love know-it-all bullshit, and leave feeling ashamed and with no idea what to actually do next.
Posted by irenev30 on January 5, 2012 at 1:47 pm | permalink |
Zee, we can go there. Your original post is my evidence of the sorts of encounters I find so useless and harmful with therapists.
My original claim was:
"People walk into these offices in crisis, and what they tend to hear is "you're pathological, you're damaged, you need to leave or something is wrong with you, and, oh, your relationship is rocky and violent because 'neither of you is willing to be vulnerable'."
Zee asks:
"I would like a link to your studies showing that clients "tend to hear this" since this is againt all of my experience and practise. Saying that to a client is utter bullsh*t and no therapist worth her salt would say that. You obviously did not read or understand my post."
well, I agree no therapist worth her salt would say that. Let's see if I read or understood your post.
Quotes from Zee's previous post:
"the reality is that most people have the common sense to realize that when someone is living with someone who chooses to be violent, that person being victimized NEEDS to get out. It's not EASY to leave and the help of a therapist as well as a proper support network is needed, but it's the RIGHT and SAFE thing to do."
In other words, Most people have the common sense, but you, poor damaged woman, don't. You are not doing the RIGHT thing.
"your thinking is so distorted that you think continued exposure to violence (for both yourself and your children) is in any way justifiable by POTENTIAL/ NOT-REAL-YET BENEFIT!"
In other words, your thinking is distorted, and in fact I need to yell in all caps to snap you out of your distorted thinking.
Not only are you distorted, but you are delusional and damaged:
"Actually Penelope, you are deluding yourself with another lie you designed to justify staying in the relationship."
"The reason you're staying with the farmer is because you have deep seated issues that distort your views of safety, love and your self-worth. And THAT's why you're staying with the Farmer."
In other words, there is something wrong with you.
"The violence will continue while you continue to exhaust yourself concocting these stories and justifications, I hope and pray for your sake and the sake of your children that it does not take a death to help you to see clearly."
In other words, if you don't do what I say, you will die (and so will your children).
â
And, Penelope herself reported that her couples counselor (also a specialist in violence, evidently) tells them that their problems stem from the fact that neither of them is willing to be vulnerable. Evidently she reads Cosmo quizzes to learn how to diagnose relationship troubles.
â
Again, I expect these kinds of judgments from random blog commenters, and from judgmental and determined friends or relatives. But too many people walk into a doctor's office, paying whatever $100 therapy fee, and hear this sort of amateurish Dr. Phil tough love know-it-all uselessness, and leave feeling ashamed and with no idea what to actually do next.
Posted by irenev30 on January 5, 2012 at 3:30 pm | permalink |
shame on you for your moronic comments..i am a survivor of sexual assault and domestic violence and it was the support of my counsellor who helped me to survive my recovery, please read others' posts properly before making such ignorant and insulting comments about the profession!
Posted by Sam on January 9, 2012 at 12:04 pm | permalink |
""It's not your fault" completely limits a woman's choices, because you are saying that she is powerless to control the situation."
I'm surprised no one has mentioned The Last Psychiatrist's take on this exact point:
"Telling Trunk to leave her husband is just plain stupid, and if that was your recommendation you should stop making recommendations, you're stupid. You can't reduce the complexity of a marriage to "he hit you, so you should leave." I know stupid people, I know, domestic violence shouldn't be tolerated, god are you dumb.
If she chooses to leave, fine, but trying to convince her to leave pushes her towards her worst fear: abandonment. She either decides to leave, or she doesn't, it must be 260% her decision or else it feels like it isn't all her decision, which means the split is felt like abandonment even though she "did" it. She'll go insane. You advising her to leave means she can't.
It also betrays a gigantic amount of arrogance. This woman who may possibly be a nut has, at least, raised kids, managed businesses, and even survived moving to Wisconsin. And you're going surprise her "domestic violence is not okay?" But the truth is you don't actually want her to leave, you just want a forum where you can take credit for telling her to do it."
Maybe a little hyperbolic, but spot on nevertheless.
Posted by Than on January 5, 2012 at 12:49 pm | permalink |
"Telling Trunk to leave her husband is just plain stupid, and if that was your recommendation you should stop making recommendations, you're stupid."
Yup, that's me alright, stupid. I can't think of anything stupider than pointing out that assault is illegal, and that exposing children to DV is at best highly negligent and at worst abusive itself.
Hey, why don't you punch me in the face, if that's an acceptable response to someone saying something dumb? Then I too can take photos, troll for sympathy, and then trick myself into thinking I have a spine by saying it's all my fault?
Posted by Can't stop watching on January 5, 2012 at 1:00 pm | permalink |
Penelope, this reads like trying to pretend, to rationalize, to lie to yourself.
Start with this: yes, child protection will take kids away for *one* bruise. Maybe they shouldn't: the hell of foster care is probably worse than one bruise. But they will.
I think your therapist is right: the relationship should not continue like this. Violence is unacceptable. Fault is a much less important question. You say you contributed to the situation, but that doesn't change the essential truth — violence is still unacceptable. Your own violence, emotional and physical, is just as unacceptable.
This has to be a starting ground. Talking about fault seems like a distraction. You can empathize (with the Farmer or with yourself), forgive, understand and figure out a way forward — but the essential fact is violence in unacceptable.
I'm not saying you should leave Nor am I saying you should stay. You'll figure it out. But leave violence.
In fact, maybe that's what you did – when it crossed the line you went to the hotel.
Your readers think you shouldn't go back. Are you fooling yourself? Or is there a way forward?
Posted by Christopher Parker on January 5, 2012 at 1:34 pm | permalink |
Penelope, I have a deep, personal understanding of domestic violence. I, too, stayed in an abusive marriage longer than I should have because I believe in "personal responsibility." I thought it was my responsibility to try and fix my abusive marriage.
I WAS WRONG, AND SO ARE YOU.
You are a traumatized victim whose agency has been snatched away, and you are not thinking clearly right now, because that's what traumatic abuse like this does to a person.
I wasn't thinking clearly either, not until many years later after going through some seriously tough trauma therapy.
You do have personal responsibility: to yourself and your children only, not to someone who continues to hurt you.
I don't care what you say or do, you do NOT deserve to be physically or emotionally abused. EVER. Even if if you're 100 percent of the problem, which you're not. This isn't about blame, or whose "fault" it is. It's about power and control over another person through violence and other abuse.
And I'm sure you will leave him permanently when you feel it's safe for you to do so. No one can tell you when the time is right; only you will know that. I do hope you can find a safe way out of this relationship sooner rather than later.
Posted by Lucy on January 5, 2012 at 1:38 pm | permalink |
I love this. Thank you.
Posted by Jen M. on January 5, 2012 at 1:49 pm | permalink |
Thank you, Jen.
If you, Penelope, or anyone else here would like to read a personal account of domestic violence, I have written a book, "I Am Just A Woman," available as a complimentary .pdf download. There is absolutely no fee or signup or anything like that required to access it. Clicking on my name will take you to my blog, iamjustawoman.tumblr.com, where you can find the link to the book. My hope is that people will read it and pass it on to others who might benefit from it.
Posted by Lucy on January 5, 2012 at 8:06 pm | permalink |
I'm sorry, Penelope. I disagree with you on this one. It is NEVER the victim's fault! NEVER! Is it a rape victims's fault when he/she is raped? Is it the victim's fault when a serial killer chooses to cut up his/her body? No. Never.
Sure. You may have done something to make him angry; however, HE made the choice to escalate. Everyone has a choice. Everyone can choose not to choose violence.
I don't agree that saying "It's not your fault" limits a victim's choices. I feel it opens them up. Think about it: Once a victim accepts that it's not his/her fault, he/she can be free to choose the next steps in his/her life. He or she can choose to be free of suffering.
Good luck to you, Penelope. It is not your fault. It was never your fault.
Posted by Jen M. on January 5, 2012 at 1:47 pm | permalink |
As a man who has been severely abused by his ex-wife and never once hit back or returned insults, I get tired easily of reading things that equate "domestic violence victims" with "women".
However, it was good to read about what happened between your mother and your father. That shows balance. That shows the reality: that it's not just men who do all the abusing.
And then I read the last paragraph, in which you said "If you can't get a job it's not because of the job market, it's because you are unemployable."
Excuse me, but for your information, there are people who cannot get a job and it's NOT because they are unemployable. That includes people with disabilities. Like me. Who applied for thousands of jobs. Who are extremely competent and qualified. Who got slapped in the face by flat-out refusals to work with the applicant's disability. In one case, the hiring manager told me to my face – in a very illegal manner in which a lawsuit would have put him out of business if I had pressed it – that he didn't want to hire me because I'm deaf (and no, it was not a job that required hearing, such as a police officer or EMT).
Please think twice when making such statements that cover things you do not know about.
Posted by Damien on January 5, 2012 at 1:53 pm | permalink |
it sounds like he's hitting you because he's frustrated, not because he likes to beat up women. are you afraid of him? is he doing any sort of anger management therapy?
maybe you could be in a relationship but not leave together. separate bedrooms?
I have a friend who is just starting a divorce because of domestic violence, among other issues. I don't think it helps to see the issue as black and white.
Posted by Jess on January 5, 2012 at 2:34 pm | permalink |
anyone with common sense knows a blog may not accurately describe reality
anyone with common sense knows a blog may not accurately describe reality
Posted by farmersconcubine on January 5, 2012 at 3:50 pm | permalink |
Ok, why are you trashing people who can't find a job? This has no bearing on the subject of your blog whatsoever, and it does not make the point you seem to think it does. What it does do is tell me that you are smug and egotistical.
"There are no bad bossesâit's only you. If you can't get a job it's not because of the job market, it's because you are unemployable. And you can fix that. Your heavy workload is not because someone gave it to you â you gave it to yourself."
This is SO untrue! I have been in many bad employment situations and it is NOT because I am unemployable or any of the other things you say. It is because employers feel that they can take advantage of a bad economy. I hope this situation happens to you someday so you can put yourself in somebody else's shoes. I've had good jobs and bad jobs, great bosses and absolute creeps. They are all out there. But I will not take the blame for being unable to secure a job. Thanks for the pep talk Penelope. You're a fruit loop.
Posted by Amy K on January 5, 2012 at 4:20 pm | permalink |
About 15 years ago, I started hitting my girlfriend.
I'm not entirely sure why. I had no history of domestic violence in my life. My father never hit my mother, or even raised his voice to her when I was a child.
I do know that I always had a slow-burning but volcanic temper, and it probably flowed out of that. I found getting angry to be addictive. I'd tried cocaine when I was younger, but never been very enthusiastic about it. The effects paled in comparison to how great it felt to give in to my rages.
This didn't spill over into my relationships, until I met a girl who also had a very aggressive streak. I don't remember much about how it all started, apart from the fact our relationship was great for 18 months, and then it dissolved into 3 years of anger and fighting.
This got worse over time, until one day, she threw a glass of water over me in front of somebody else. For some reason, this flipped a switch in me. I lost my temper, and hit her repeatedly, leaving marks similar to the ones that you showed in your last post, but on her arms, face and shoulders.
When she calmed down, she told me if I ever did it again, she'd leave me. Another year went by, then something happened (can't remember what), and I hit her again. She made good on her promise and left.
I was secretly relieved, because we hated each other by this stage, and I was trying to work out how to exit. About 2 weeks later, she changed her mind and desperately tried to persuade me to get back together with her. I said no.
A year or so later, I met my wife. She was also very fiery, and known amongst her friends for her temper. We moved in together and immediately started having angry fights. Sometimes she'd hit me, sometimes I'd hit her. She didn't seem particularly bothered by it for some reason. It was just something that came and went. I by then had realized that anger maybe wasn't such a great thing after all, and was making some effort to get control over myself. It didn't always work, but the violence did diminished.
Then we had a child.
She didn't sleep for many, many months. I got some sleep, but nowhere near enough. Our house turned into a war zone. I remember once, she physically attacked me whilst I was holding our baby. Another time, she pushed me down the stairs. I'd respond by physically grappling her, and pinching her until she gave in. Our neighbours started avoiding us in the street. It wasn't one sided. I think I tried to push her down the stairs once as well, although I don't remember.
Again, this escalated. And ended up in a confrontation where she hit me, I flipped and hit her back so hard she had a headache for 2 days. We're both fortunate I didn't seriously injure her. She then grabbed a kitchen knife. I thought she was going to lunge for me, and had our baby not been in the room at the time, I think she may have.
That was the abyss. I realized that if we ever hit each other again, one of us was probably going to end up dead, and the other in prison.
So I resolved internally that I would no longer allow my anger to rule me. That was a couple of years back, and I have made good on that resolution. Anger has loosened its grip on me, and I no longer hear the red-tinged siren song every time I am faced with confrontation. It didn't require 'years of therapy', although I had been meditating for a while which probably helped a lot.
If things become unbearable, I just turn round and walk.
What's interesting has been my wife's response to this. She's still quick tempered as ever, and has tried to provoke physical confrontations with me. When I've refused to rise to the bait, she's even screamed "why don't you hit me again?", and tried to push me to do it, on more than one occasion.
However, I didn't, and her aggression and anger is slowly but noticeably decreasing now.
So…
Should my first girlfriend have left me the first time I hit her?
I'd say yes, probably. Ours was a toxic relationship that had no future. We were both better out of it. We're friends now, for what it's worth.
Should my wife have left me?
Should I have left my wife?
Not so easy to answer. The fact that neither of us did led us into a very dangerous situation, where either of us could have been killed. Seeing such violence couldn't have been good for our child, even though our child were very young.
On the flipside, we have a much better relationship now. I have faced my demons and dealt with them, and I believe having done so, I'm probably better placed than anyone else to help my wife do the same. That's because I do so from a position of understanding, compassion and non-judgement, having been there myself.
My wife, despite her temper, is a wonderful and caring mother. I have never seen anything that makes me thing she'd ever be violent towards our child. She hasn't been violent to me since I've learned not to respond to it.
And what about our child? Would they be better off with just one parent? If we were still fighting, the answer would probably be "yes". But we aren't, and we stopped of our own accord. So I'd have to say "no".
Of course, reading this, you may well come to different conclusions, but you have your life, and I have mine.
My personal view is that the path you're taking, Penelope, is a dangerous one. There is a very real risk it will end in serious harm to you. But then again, it is possible to get past violence and aggression. And I hope you both do, because the view from this side is much rosier.
The one warning bell that did ring in your last post was when you said "the Farmer had agreed not to hit me again if I didn't make him stay up talking so late". I can tell you from experience, that until the Farmer takes responsibility for his own actions, he will keep hitting you. But then I'm sure you already know that.
Posted by Risks on January 5, 2012 at 4:36 pm | permalink |
Well said
Posted by Rose on January 5, 2012 at 5:44 pm | permalink |
thank you so much for sharing this…it's not often we get to hear the male perspective…i wish you and your family good luck!
Posted by Zee on January 6, 2012 at 5:40 am | permalink |
I am sorry for your confusion. If the farmer is violent with you again will that be too much? Where is the line that you draw for yours and your children's safety? Do you have a number of times it is acceptable to be hit? Do you think it is acceptable for you children to hit? Do you think that it is the other childs fault when your children hit? How many times is it OK for violence to occur in a relationship?
Posted by Rose on January 5, 2012 at 5:41 pm | permalink |
You win the award for most dysfunctional woman I have ever seen on the internet. Read about you on The Last Psychiatrist. Obviously you love the attention. That's a good thing, because we all love watching a good slow-motion train wreck, and you are feeding us the footage. Delightfully symbiotic, that. One more thing – as another commenter said: nice ass. More photos of that, please.
Posted by meistergedanken on January 5, 2012 at 7:51 pm | permalink |
I'm not going to tell you whether you should leave or stay; that's entirely your choice. You do realize, however, that the longer you stay in this situation the greater the chance that you will lose custody of your children? You are documenting a physically abusive relationship ON THE INTERNET FOR FUCK'S SAKE. You don't think your sons' father cares about this? Or that your local Children's Protective Services offices won't care about this if someone draws their attention to it? If you are going to stay with your husband, the two of you need to get your shit together because you are teaching your children some pretty awful relationship skills.
Posted by Barnmaven on January 5, 2012 at 8:56 pm | permalink |
Penelope the point in your blog stating domestic violence (of any form and shape) should NEVER be tolerated is very true. Domestic violence is one of the classic ways of demoralizing women. In my years as a writer I have always believed in empowering women. This is one way of helping prevent such occurrences.
Posted by Daniel Milstein on January 5, 2012 at 9:46 pm | permalink |
but anyone with common sense knows a blog may not accurately describe reality.
Posted by Laughing Out Loud on January 5, 2012 at 10:06 pm | permalink |
Hm, where else did I read that recently? Must have been another blog. {scratches head}
Posted by MM on January 6, 2012 at 10:02 am | permalink |
Good luck with your book sales!
Posted by Anonymous on January 5, 2012 at 10:54 pm | permalink |
Unfortunately, your blog has turned into that massive auto accident that people don't want to look at, but they all slow down while driving by so they can get a better view. We cover our eyes, but peer between our fingers at the bodies sitting in the twisted wreckageâ¦
Posted by ictus75 on January 5, 2012 at 11:05 pm | permalink |
Its not about zero tolerance for domestic violence. It's about getting out of a relationship that is extremely bad for you, because yes, it is bad, and you're not capable of getting better as a couple. Every post you make about it provides evidence for it, you just don't want to do it because you have some emotional hang-ups. Yes, everyone has emotional hang-ups, but this is really the point at which you shouldn't be prioritizing them anymore. It's like the day you have to take out the trash, even though the trash is stinky and makes you gag, because today is trash day and you don't have any space left to keep more trash until next week.
Posted by SusieQ on January 6, 2012 at 2:22 am | permalink |
irenev30,
after reading your respone i am not inclined to change my mind that you missed the point entirely. would it have been better if i said "penelope is well and has normal thought patterns and she is absolutely doing the right thing"? it's coddling drivel like that that is entirely unhelpful to women living with DV; if one does not know that one is unwell and able to be self-aware enough to recognize when their internal danger system is broken, pray tell how would YOU recommend that person begin working on adjusting it to avoid further danger??
———
"In other words, Most people have the common sense, but you, poor damaged woman, don't."
This was in response to Penelope's stated belief that people who think women being beaten up should leave are highminded, arrogant and know everything irene…I responded that actually, they are responding to the picture she posted out of their common sense view that if you are in danger you should leave.
You have taken every one of my statements explaining the imbalance in Penelope's brain chemistry and thoughts to mean "something is wrong with her" while missing the point [again] that Penelope is wired to remain there until she gets the support she needs to leave.
People go to counselling usually because they are broken in some form or fashion, it is part of my job to help them explore the roots of that brokenness and understand how it works so they can fix it to avoid further danger!
——
"The violence will continue while you continue to exhaust yourself concocting these stories and justifications, I hope and pray for your sake and the sake of your children that it does not take a death to help you to see clearly."
"In other words, if you don't do what I say, you will die (and so will your children)."
I think the tonnes of police reports, literature and research worldwide on this fact is more relevant than your ridiculous interpretation. Nowhere in my statement did i make a prediction other than to say that research shows that eventually the honeymoon phase of the violence cycle diminishes and then disappears altogether. It is a well recorded fact that violence in relationships tend to increase over time.
â—–
"And, Penelope herself reported that her couples counselor (also a specialist in violence, evidently) tells them that their problems stem from the fact that neither of them is willing to be vulnerable. Evidently she reads Cosmo quizzes to learn how to diagnose relationship troubles"
First of all, I cannot trust Penelope
s interpretation of what anyone says.
If her statement is true, then I have no idea why you see it fit to take one experience with a counsellor to make an insulting and blanket conclusion that "this profession is useless at best".
———
"paying whatever $100 therapy fee, and hear this sort of amateurish Dr. Phil tough love know-it-all uselessness, and leave feeling ashamed and with no idea what to actually do next"
DV counselling is tough because the victims come in not knowing what to do and they tend to remain in that place for a while…violence in any form, esp. long-term, has the effect of dismantling one's self-esteem and ability to think analytically…part of the work is building those up before a plan for treatment can be established…to conclude that a victim walks out of therapy confused and not knowing what to do solely because her distorted thought patterns are pointed out is ignorant and asinine.
Since you are neither capable of understanding nor making an informed argument I'm done with this "discussion" with you. Evidently you believe that one sh*tty counsellor who talks crap (like Penelope's counsellor and her "vulnerable" nonsense) determines that the entire field of trauma therapy is "useless" and I wish anyone seeking support for healing from violence good luck with a counsellor who refuses to explore their broken thought and behaviour patterns with them.
Posted by Zee on January 6, 2012 at 5:36 am | permalink |
Responding to your comment, Zee: "DV counselling is tough because the victims come in not knowing what to do and they tend to remain in that place for a whileâ¦violence in any form, esp. long-term, has the effect of dismantling one's self-esteem and ability to think analyticallyâ¦part of the work is building those up before a plan for treatment can be establishedâ¦to conclude that a victim walks out of therapy confused and not knowing what to do solely because her distorted thought patterns are pointed out is ignorant and asinine."
This is absolutely true. I have been in excellent trauma therapy for 11 months. The first 6 months I was confused and grief-stricken, wondering if I could even survive it. My counselor helped me see my distorted thought patterns, and it was only when I saw them clearly that I could begin to learn ways to counteract them. (And let me add, it does absolutely no good to attempt trauma therapy while you're still being traumatized!)
Posted by Lucy on January 6, 2012 at 1:53 pm | permalink |
"And let me add, it does absolutely no good to attempt trauma therapy while you're still being traumatized!"
Too true! I remember when I started my trauma-therapy and felt dazed and confused for months, but in the end it was life-changing…I wish you all the best in your healing.
Posted by *n* on January 9, 2012 at 12:02 pm | permalink |
Maybe, "That's why I'm staying with the Farmer", means she is going to try to work things out with the Farmer but not necessarily live with him at this point. Although, I'm not sure when she would want to venture back into that living relationship given the potential for the abuse to re-occur. Who knows, Penelope might still be at the hotel with her kids. I wish her the best and I am heartened by the caring responses that have been offered on this blog.
Posted by Chuck on January 6, 2012 at 5:40 am | permalink |
I understand – not an unreasonable perspective. Time is the other component that reveals a healthy path. best to you and your family.
Posted by sharon dove on January 6, 2012 at 8:27 am | permalink |
My local news has been filled with reports about a very gruesome highway death (guy appeared to be changing his tire on the shoulder, hit by 3 cars, obviously killed). Now reports are surfacing that a domestic assault, injuring the dead pedestrian's wife, occured hours before the highway death. Accident? Suicide? Result of a house spinning out of control, violently? In any case, DON'T LET THINGS GO THIS FAR.
Posted by MM on January 6, 2012 at 10:00 am | permalink |
This is about as stupid as it gets. Ok, yes…you may do something wrong and "annoy" or "displease" someone, but their reaction does not require aggression…PERIOD! There are many more ways to react when frustrated or upset and if you don't know that, you really have a lot of growing up to do.
Posted by Chantilly Patiño (@biculturalmom) on January 6, 2012 at 11:55 am | permalink |
I'm going to take your post at face value and say that you're part of the problem.
Now, the question becomes: why stay in a relationship where you think it's inevitable, i.e. that you just know for certain, that you're going to trigger someone into harming you?
Not all relationships can be fixed. Not all love is worthy of trying to keep regardless of the consequences. From what I've seen on your blog, you and the Farmer fight, break up, and make up dozens of times. That level of instability alone, even with abuse out of the equation, is not really healthy to say the least.
You can say that you are an adult and can make your own choices. Fine. Just don't think that the only criticisms of your choices come from a zero tolerance standpoint. Many of them come from a, well, sanity standpoint.
Posted by Heina on January 6, 2012 at 1:04 pm | permalink |
Apologies for the ableist term "sanity." What I meant is stability/rational.
Of course, love and emotions are not stable and rational, but life choices should be, I think.
Posted by Heina on January 6, 2012 at 1:05 pm | permalink |
Geez, Peneolope, you sound like me a year and a half ago. The situation is obvious as I stand on the sidelines, but I understand how when you are in it you think it is unique and are making excuses. That's fine, hope you come around one day. It took me years.
It wasn't the four years of domestic violence that made me finally realize i needed a divorce. It finally took me committing adultery to realize how unhappy I was with my situation and how much I desperately needed to end it. Now I lost a lot of my friends and my life over my indiscretions, but although my ex husband tried to ruin my image publically, I never did it to him by broadcasting his abuse (in fact I had hid it for years).
I'm in a loving relationship now with someone who accepts and loves all the things my ex husband used to hate. It's hard to accept when you're in it, but the situation isn't as inescapable as it feels at the time.
Honestly though if I was your husband, I would end the relationship because I wouldn't want our disputes published online. That's violating trust and a shitty thing to do.
Posted by E on January 6, 2012 at 2:03 pm | permalink |
First off, zero tolerance for domestic violence and exclusively blaming the abuser is usually wrong. I agree with you there.
That said, domestic violence, particularly by men, is dangerous because it tends to escalate if it is accepted in the R/S and because men tend to be significantly stronger than women. Hit/no hit is easier to deal with reliably than 'don't hit hard enough to kill'. So, it would be wise to take these incidents as indicators of danger in the R/S. There is the potential for you or your kids to end up dead.
Third, I know a woman who resembles you in many ways. Please consider the possibility that some of your issues (eg., following around the Farmer) are more similar to borderline personality disorder than Asperger's. The two conditions can be comorbid. Given your prior history, it is reasonable to guess that you may be more than half the problem.
Posted by Erwin on January 6, 2012 at 3:34 pm | permalink |
Don't you think it's kind of ironic that there are so many people here using abusive language while telling you to have zero tolerance for abuse?
Posted by moo on January 6, 2012 at 4:02 pm | permalink |
Lastly, although not excusable, if you resemble that woman, perfectly decent men may be strongly tempted to abuse you after being screamed at, verbally abused, and possibly threatened by knives for 30+ hours.
Obvious conclusions are that both of you should take responsibility for your problems, be in therapy, and that both of you need to learn some new behaviors to handle conflict.
Farmer doesn't sound like the guy who'll beat you to keep you submissive. He sounds like the guy who doesn't have the kind of emotional tools/learned behavior to avoid escalating your own abusive behavior.
Posted by Erwin on January 6, 2012 at 4:42 pm | permalink |
You thinking is flawed.
Penelope, Zero tolerance for violence is not stupid. Here's where your thinking is flawed….You do NOT cause the violence by things you do. Yes, you probably do a LOT of things that irk the Farmer, and that make him angry. That's it. People in relationships do things that make their partner angry. I've been married almost 34 years and I have dome some really, really stupid stuff..but my husband would never, ever hit me. The Farmer, on the other hand, responds to being angry at you by violence. He doesn't know any other way. It's not you, it's him. Yeah, you will continue to do and say stupid things and he will hit you. That's a fact.
Posted by Susan on January 6, 2012 at 4:47 pm | permalink |
Wow. Kudos to you for having the courage to write this. I completely agree with you. Life is lived in shades of grey. How many people with a zero tolerence policy have violated that policy and they are just not admitting to it?
My husband and partner of 10 is a combat Veteran with some extreme problems….one of which is alcohol. Last summer, when he was out again till closing time, I got angry enough to march to the bar around the corner in my PJs and pull him off a bar stool. He landed quite hard, hard enough to leave marks anyway. Some how, on the 30 yard walk home he called 911 and showed off the marks and had me arrested on an assault charge (he was mostly angry because he had 2 hours until closing time.) Long story short, judge dropped the DV charges and shortly after, with the help of a VA counselor, he entered a residental program and is doing much better. Thank goodness that neither one of us has a 'zero tolerance' policy or a decent man would probably be drinking himself to death as we speak.
Fact: shitty things happen, people have problems – sometimes they get fixed and sometime they don't. But the dogma of a 'zero tolerance policy' really doesn't solve anything or boost your self esteem at the end of the day…but it does give you a much easier out than you woukd otherwise have. I'll never fault someone for taking the out – but to have 'policies'when it comes to complex human relationships just seems weak.
Posted by Chris on January 7, 2012 at 10:21 am | permalink |
Virginia was right.
Penelope is a crazy attention whore who is broke and desperate. If she is really getting abused, it is a smal price to pay to stay with a decent man with a home and money. He likes the kids so Penelope needs to close her mouth and accept her lowly place in life.
God, I hate stupid people.
Posted by yadgyu on January 7, 2012 at 6:49 pm | permalink |
I grew up in an abusive household. I wish my mom had packed up her bags and left. But I am of course speaking in retrospect, so had she left my dad then, I am not sure I would've understood then – I am not sure if I would be angry today wishing she didn't leave, and believing things might have worked out. They are still married today, things are still not working out, but we are still hoping someday, it will. Is it better to raise your kids in a messed-up and constantly abused household, or a single/lonely/sad household? I don't know. You weigh your pros and cons, and you make a choice, and since you have only one life to live, that choice defines your life and greatly shapes that of your children's. Such is life.
Posted by Naomi on January 7, 2012 at 7:01 pm | permalink |
I grew up in an abusive household. I wish my mom had packed up her bags and left. But I am of course speaking in retrospect, so had she left my dad then, I am not sure I would've understood then – I am not sure if I would be angry today wishing she didn't leave, and believing things might have worked out. They are still married today, things are still not working out, but we are still hoping someday, it will. Is it better to raise your kids in a messed-up and constantly abused household, or a single/lonely/sad household? I don't know. You weigh your pros and cons, and you make a choice, and since you have only one life to live, that choice defines your life and greatly shapes that of your children's. Such is life.
Also – your children don't need to be smart, or musical, or gifted, ALL THEY NEED IS TO BE LOVED, in a HEALTHY MANNER. That's it. Do whatever you can to give THAT to them and their life will be ALL SET.
Posted by Naomi on January 7, 2012 at 7:03 pm | permalink |
Penelope -
While I believe you have the absolute right to decide what is right for you and the farmer as consenting adults (although I feel compelled to add I am of the zero-tolerance for violence group personally), what troubles me immensely is how your marriage interactions imprint on your two boys.
From reading your posts these past several years, I know you love your boys fiercely. I know you prioritize their well being over just about everything else on the planet, and the energy and time you expend each week investing in their education, growth, and creative-musical-entrepreneurial-farming explorations speaks an encyclopedia's worth of action truly manifesting your deeply-held values.
Given that, I would like to encourage you to rethink what it means to have your two beloved sons growing up in a home with the violent fights you have with the farmer. No matter what you say, the imprint of living and watching you and the farmer emotionally and physically hurt each other is what your boys will develop as a template of what a "normal" relationship looks like.
You are very open about growing up in a physically and sexually abusive household that also had domestic violence between your parents. You are well familiar with a destructive dance of anger in intimate relationships, and I believe that's at least part of the reason why you and the farmer have engaged in domestic violence between yourselves. I ask you to PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE think of your sons and the future intimate relationships they each will have with their own partners. If they continue to grow up in a home with you and the farmer engaging in violence, you can virtually guarantee your sons will also choose partners and continue this pattern of interpersonal violence themselves.
If you can't make the break from the farmer for yourself, I hope you can do it for your two boys.
Posted with genuine care, concern, and respect for all 4 of you -
Posted by 911Doc on January 7, 2012 at 9:24 pm | permalink |
Thank you, Penelope, for being one of the few voices, men or women, courageous enough to write about this in such a nuanced way. I grew up in a sometimes violent household as well. I knew my father's outbursts, a loss of control on his part were wrong, but I also saw the provocations. I knew that one form of abuse I saw was more emotional, and one was more physical. Both were wrong.
Posted by Steve on January 8, 2012 at 12:35 pm | permalink |
Very thoughtful post.
The point Penelope makes about personal responsibility being the only way of affecting one's relationships reminded me of that Love Languages book. One of the central arguments of the book is that once the in-love feelings die down, the only way the relationship can last is by choosing to love your spouse in the way they prefer and part of that is figuring out what things make them feel unloved. But that is hard to implement in this society. We are fed this idea that love is all about what makes me feel good right now, so forgiveness is weakness. But holding grudges doesn't protect you. It just makes love impossible. What kind of life is that?
Penelope, good luck with the farmer.
Posted by Lisa on January 8, 2012 at 1:59 pm | permalink |
Just a thought: ever heard the maxim that women are attracted to assholes? Any chance that's happening with you?
Posted by D on January 8, 2012 at 3:16 pm | permalink |
You're a very strong, smart, and capable person – you're not crazy, just coming from a bad set of experiences – my heart goes out to you and I understand your struggle – because I have experienced "just" emotional (non-violent) abuse, and boy, was it hard to get away from that and stop blaming myself for what was happening! Ultimately, though, my experience says that leaving was the right thing to do, so I hope you will read through my lengthy 2 cents of opinion!
I see why you take issue with the way people phrase things in mainstream life as well as in the anti-domestic-violence community. I see that harshly blaming the victim is utterly wrong (those people who did blame you aren't being helpful at all!), and you're making me think that blaming just the perpetrator is probably as wrong for long-term healing processes – "guilt" in general is not a very useful concept here.
It may help to phrase things in yet a different way – allow me to elaborate, and see whether you can agree with that. Please read to the end:
A social dynamic in which violence and abuse are happening is wrong and harmful to everyone who is involved.
It doesn't matter who caused it to which proportion – it must be ended as soon and as thoroughly as possible.
A break must occur, and each member of the dynamic must work out their issues on their own, possibly with professional help or at least with the support of people who are not highly emotionally invested in those persons' social success.
(This means no parents, because they raised you and will always feel that their own success or failure depends on your success or failure – and especially no parents if they were involved in an abusive dynamic themselves! Ideal supporters would be close friends who are themselves in a stable social situation – though these may be hard to come by).
If this is followed through, the people involved have the chance to heal, work through their bad experiences, and change behavior patterns that are harmful to themselves or others. This is difficult or near-impossible while remaining within a relationship that consists mainly of these harmful patterns, though!
Maybe a resumption of the relationship with a better dynamic can occur, but I think it's difficult not to fall back into bad old habits with the same person over again, so looking for a different relationship may be better.
Even if breaking up hurts because you still love each other, and even if leaving feels impossible because you're afraid of the consequences, and you feel that you're partly the cause, it is my firm belief that you should leave a situation that is harmful to you as soon as you are physically, economically, socially and emotionally able to do so.
Try to find a support network of real-life persons in physical proximity – shoulders to cry on and couches to crash on.
Divide your finances and income sources from those of your partner (I'm not a regular reader so I don't know if this is already the case).
Have a backup plan that involves your parents as little as possible.
These are the things I had to have in order to break out of my borderline abusive relationship, and even with them in place, it took me several months from first realizing I wanted/had to leave to actually leaving.
I can't even fathom how much matters are complicated by having kids in the mix. But I do actually believe that a healthy one-parent-household with backup from a vibrant social community is better than an unhealthy and isolated two-parent-household – where "healthy" ultimately means having worked through all issues that led to the parents' breakup so that no hard feelings towards the other parent remain.
To summarize, or TL/DR: Blame the bad social dynamic, not the persons involved in it, but work towards ending it nevertheless!
Posted by gospozha_swanson on January 9, 2012 at 5:10 am | permalink |
I am concerned for you but I respect your choice and hope for the best. Here's to a better 2012.
Posted by Jefe on January 11, 2012 at 6:22 am | permalink |
Woop sorry Pen about the profanity in my earlier comment.
OK, I've been reading up on Aspergers since my daughter has been having trouble in school. And I'm pretty sure I've got it too.
Know what? Aspies live life on their own terms. Asking them to change is like telling them to rewire their own brains. It's exactly this trait that attracts people to me. And scares them a little.
So Heck to the Yeah do what you're gonna do.
Posted by another perspective on January 11, 2012 at 6:05 pm | permalink |
Please look at these and consider whether or not they sound familiar before you make the steadfast decision that you can work on this or that you are at fault in this or that you should stay. I dont know all the details of your relationship and its nuances. I do know I have heard women say many times what you are saying, and it still gets worse. Just consider this info.
http://www.ncdsv.org/images/SafePlace_PowerControlWheelDisabilities_2011.pdf
http://www.ncdsv.org/images/PowerControlwheelNOSHADING.pdf
Posted by TR on January 11, 2012 at 8:14 pm | permalink |
You paint a terrible picture of life. You have no business giving any sort of advice if all you do is admonish, terrorize, and pass off rationalizing keeping yourself and your kids in an awful situation as 'sound life advice'. All those 'supposedly feminist blogs' that are ripping you to shreds are doing it because NO ONE should follow your life advice. Take care of your mind, body, and children. Don't make excuses and perpetuate the cycle of hating and blaming yourself for abuse.
Posted by Lola on January 14, 2012 at 6:31 am | permalink |
Thank you so much for this post. I've been going through similar discussions in my head as some in my family are suggesting that I am a victim of slight emotional abuse. However, I respectfully disagree since my husband and I are both very strong willed people and most "outsiders" to our relationship have no idea of the inner workings/struggles. How can any 3rd party REALLY ever be all knowing In respect to two individual's relationship.
It also does not offer me much confidence that the people who are offering this insight are in marriages that I loathe.
My husband has gone through some pretty traumatic events in his life and he personally struggles with them on a daily basis; it is a cause of very much frustration. I understand the pain he goes through and most of that frustration comes out in the form of anger. When looked at objectively, it is not anger toward me, but personal frustration of the circumstances he is in because of these traumatic events. In 8 years of marriage and 10 total years of relationship, I have learned to decipher between his frustration at the past and his frustration with me and I can say without a doubt that we are both ABSOLUTELY better off because we are still partners.
This is all to say that I applaud your openness in this matter and I greatly appreciate the vulnerability you offered to the all-judging Internet. You are a stronger individual than most!
Posted by Jenny on January 14, 2012 at 7:23 pm | permalink |
I hope you read all of these comments, and I doubt I'm going to say anything new here, but first, I have a story to share with you.
I have a good friend from Boston. One day he and his wife went down by the water to see an aircraft carrier that was docked and on display…apparently there was a big event or something there. They went down by the water – the way they knew to get there, and drove around for quite a while, unable to find where the carrier was or how to get close to it. Finally they asked somebody where the carrier was and he replied "look behind you." My friend did, but all he was what looked like a massive grey wall with no shape, no details…it blended in perfectly with the rest of the nondescript buildings by the way. Then they realized – there should be no buildings there…there should only be the Atlantic, a clear shot all the way to England. They had been driving right next to the massive carrier the whole time and never realized it was the ship.
I think this is the situation in which you find yourself. So close to an incredible issue that you can't really see it in totally.
Look, nobody has the right to hit you. Period.
This is severely affecting your children.
You need to leave. You need to leave. You need to leave.
Posted by Brian on January 16, 2012 at 11:31 am | permalink |
As someone who was a victim of domestic abuse from my parents. You're right, abuse is not a one-way street, but it's about power and control. When someone feels they must physically control you, there is no clear boundary any more for what is appropriate behavior in the relationship. I think you're severely deluding yourself and I really don't find anything you have to say since you quit Brazen Careerist to be that insightful or great. I'm done reading your blog, thanks.
Posted by Ed F on January 16, 2012 at 7:24 pm | permalink |
I'm curious.
When do you think we should tolerate domestic violence and abuse? By whom, to whom? I'd really like to know. Is it a formula? Or something less defined?
Posted by Jenny on January 18, 2012 at 8:06 am | permalink |
Great that you've had the courage to be honest about your process. I've dropped the word 'blame' from my vocabulary altogether. It smacks of finger pointing and judgement to me. Responsibility feels much better. Therein lie the seeds of empowerment.
I also blog about domestic abuse, thankfully as someone who has escaped it. It's definitely not as simple as saying, just get out. For me I had to understand the mechanics of how I got sucked in in the first place. A turning point came when I stopped trying to run away and committed to the relationship and to myself at the same time.
I definitely feel my child is better off out of the abusive family setting. If I'd just left and hadn't gone through the growing process first (and continued growing) I would have just ended up replacing her Dad with another abusive guy or getting enmeshed with my dysfunctional family of origin (almost as bad).
Being a single parent really isn't all that bad. I find it much easier than being in an abusive relationship, but you have your own path and nobody knows what that is but you (one step at a time).
You may find some of my posts of interest. I write about how taking responsibility for my financial issues impacts on my self-esteem and my relationships.
you might like: http://moneytreematters.co.uk/?p=201
and:
http://moneytreematters.co.uk/?p=547
They're very relevant to this post.
Posted by Sophie Baulch on January 18, 2012 at 2:54 pm | permalink |
I really, really, REALLY hope that you are just writing for attention. And, boy did it work.
I also hope that when CPS shows up they also find that it was a joke.
Posted by dogatemyfinances on January 18, 2012 at 3:26 pm | permalink |
Penelope, this is my first ever comment on anyone's blog. First of all, I found you a mere 2 days ago or so and because of you I made up my mind to start my own blog and yes, I notice you have read this sort of comment before as I noticed through other posts and that is huge, to be able to influence people in such a way, with simple word magic oozing your determination and it empowers people. It is a gift not many have.
My heart is heavy with compassion right now. Probably not what you expect to hear but I recognize myself in so much of what you describe in terms of drive, self preservation, personal growth, multi tasking and perhaps even some of that manliness which you perceive as character strength.
I have suffered abuse all my life and to meet me you would never think I was feeble, abused, weak, insecure, indecisive and needy of support but I run into an internally beautiful partner some years ago who was able to really break down all the crap about me which I did not realize belonged with me as part of my package in my seeming always gracefully on top of it even when in rock bottom situations.
I won't go into too it right now but suffice it to say that I was shielding and an aweful lot too. I have been known to be inspirational to others around me at my worst times, I have been known to make something out of nothing when others had tried and failed and overall I have accumulated so many pick-me-up tactics along the way that being resourceful is now part of who I am, directly because of the abuses which I suffered, stemming from hard on emotional abuse, to no-touch-torture, to isolation and much much more all carried out to confuse my relating to others and distorting my definitions of acceptable behaviour and non.
No expert can help. They declare themselves experts of something which they themselves have not experienced so in these eventualities people such as yourself and myself become the "real" experts and are then able to view other situations with a broader outlook. Recently I was watching a video of a lady describing her years of abuse and she made a point which to me was huge and explained something to me which I thought was a natural gift of mine of sorts, instead it has roots specifically in abuse. That is of being able to take in in as much as 44% more detailed information concerning our surroundings than those not abused. We end up noticing more, knowing more and understanding more, not necessarily making use of it all for our own direct circumstances but definitely becoming genius in dealing with the strategies of others primarily and of sorting out our own reviewed path modes. This knowledge fools us into thinking that we can perhaps face much more than others can, and in some ways it is true, but prices are paid with this overload and it isn't an overload because perhaps you cannot deal with it, because I am sure you can and clearly are, but the main thing which is then neglected is You. The real you.
Bottom line, you are a Woman. Quit reacting for a moment and just be fragile. Be pink. Be still, even for one moment. Break down if you cannot handle being still and get the urge to once more have to deliver what others are expecting of you. The world continues undisturbed nonetheless. Let Farmer rediscover your sensual, feminine fragility and without words let him take control of something, let him decide to take you in his arms and give you a warm, loving and protective embrace, reaffirming his masculinity and his role and if you cannot look in his eyes for a moment or so, it's ok too.
Sometimes it really is as simple as letting go and simply being.
All this talk about having people medicated and the mentioning of disorders and what not, is all very tragic. People have no idea how these proposed titles affect society at large and are primarily used to create separation and isolation. Half of the people who mention medicating others have no clue as to what these meds have in them nor do they have any actual proof that these disorders do in fact exist, else the medical community itself would not call them disorders, but rather diseases or illnesses. Sheep's labels.
I may be making no sense of all this as really I am not used to writing posts on such things and replying to such personal issues. You have lost some people on this thread and you have gained a new reader and follower. We lose some, we win some. Whatever! I personally like the analogy of being on the plane and before being able to assist others in case of an emergency, I have to ensure to put on my own oxygen mask before attempting to assist others with theirs. So simple, yet so true.
Best of luck P.
Posted by Ubagal on January 19, 2012 at 7:24 am | permalink |
And…as reaction to the comment before mine, this is precisely what is going on in society. The zero tolerance factor is used and propagated only with final financial interest at the end of its chain and it mainly targets women and children, People should learn to mind their own business before commenting about the "welfare" of the children of others, since the same people have NO way of knowing nor telling nor do they "chase" any case of children eventually put in care. CPS are not what the general public believes them to be and I say what and not who because they are an entity. First of all, let's start from the base fact that CPS is made up of people whose backgrounds and psychological or psychiatric profiles are ever made known to the general public, nor does the general public choose their reps in such roles after due vetting. It is ridiculous to blindly trust and believe that any such set up has more interest in the welfare of the child than loving parents do, "naturally", full stop. They should prove their case before representing anyone, just as a parent has to prove themselves when confronted by them. To anyone lucky enough not to have anything to do with CPS in any country, continue believing what you do at the peril of kids, if that's the comfort zone you can attain with your conscience, but don't judge, don't comment and most of all quit acting as the hidden, social branch of neighbourhood spies which land children in these scenarios. Start reading about organized paedophile rings, child trafficking and governmental corruption into the constant fuelling of these programmes acting under the guise of social assistance. Quit the sheep talk when it comes to children, this really annoys me, as we are failing to protect our kids and funny enough the same over medicating talk and stigmatizations are more so prone once kids are in care and consistently do worst off. Not the right thread for this, but really, some of you readers update yourselves! Check this out as a little intro and understand that this lady was assassinated in the US for her involvement in trying to fight against CPS as a Senator! P, keep your kids very very close to you and try to shield them more, less exposure is probably best! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPskpY2UaUE
Posted by Ubagal on January 19, 2012 at 8:05 am | permalink |
I completely agree with you, i had never thought about ot like that, but what you say is the genuine truth.
One thing is important tho, if you work on the part where you're to blame and it still happens, i do think you should get away from him.
Posted by Matheus on January 20, 2012 at 11:18 am | permalink |
Hi, Penelope. Sorry to read of your trials and suffering. I am not going to beat on you–the world will do plenty of that without my help.
I do agree that you do need to do your part, e.g., therapy. I also agree that the farmer need not have his kids taken away.
But I also feel very strongly that this situation now transcends both of you and involves others–your children–who are, indeed victims and witnesses to behaviors that are really detrimentally transgressive. It is not ok to employ violence to make your point. There are very few instances where violence is ok.
I am an ENTJ hypomanic, and I probably make my husband nuts, but he has never physically abused me. I am not saying this makes him or me better than you or the farmer, but it does mean that we have an agreement, a social contract, that we do not transgress for the sake of our child. Well, for our own sakes, too–he didn't hit me before the kid came, either.
You guys want to kill each other, have at it. I am not saying that trivially. You are not bound by any rules when you are by yourselves.
But you have a moral obligation to draw the boundary for your children, who neither asked for or want to be the witnesses to your "stuff".
The concern I have is that you are perpetuating the transgressions brought onto you by your family of origin.
This is worthy of some reflection and consideration. I hope you don't take the tack of, "If it was good enough for me, it was good enough for them." Or, in the case of my addicted parents, "We were better than our parents, so you did better." This is just a rationalization for difficulty managing impulsiveness.
Maybe focus on the Aspie stuff–managing obessiveness, getting help with the social skill deficits, etc. Learning to manage it with whatever help you need.
As a hypomanic, I spend MANY years in therapy–single, joint, cognitive behavioral, etc. I could benefit from prophylactic meds, but me and my trusted beloveds try to honor my wish to not go there by working up a game plan in case I start to get episodic.
Can you build in some trapdoors, some safety nets, some toolkits that can help you before you reach the point of major transgression in front of your kids?
Maybe focus just on that for a while, lift all judgments and see where that goes….
Good luck.
Posted by Jenn on January 20, 2012 at 8:29 pm | permalink |
I wish we had zero tolerance here in San Francisco. Our newly elected Sheriff was arrested on 3 counts of domestic violence. I am circulating an online petition urging our Mayor to suspend him pending the outcome of his trial. I would really appreciate signatures and advice on circulating the petition. Thanks. Maria Morgan
http://www.change.org/petitions/sf-mayor-lee-toss-ross-suspend-sheriff-mirkarimi-now
Posted by Maria Morgan on January 27, 2012 at 8:57 pm | permalink |
That is a very different and interesting perspective. thanks for sharing. would not have thought of it that way.
Posted by Marylynn on January 31, 2012 at 8:58 pm | permalink |
This is ridiculous. No one ever deserves to be physically hurt. There are so many millions of other ways to resolve conflict.
No matter how many ways my husband tries to push my buttons sometimes, hitting hurting is never an acceptable resolution. No matter how mad my kid makes me, hurting him is never an answer. I insist on zero tolerance for myself and my loved ones.
Either you need some serious counseling or this is a sham. If this is serious, please take a moment and Google "Cycle of abuse"
Posted by Jennifer on February 17, 2012 at 7:27 pm | permalink |
So I'm coming back to comment again over an hour later because this blog entry just makes me mad.
You go out and research so much information to give out career advice. Go read what happens to kids who grow up in abused households. They become abused or they become abusers. DON'T LET YOUR KIDS GROW UP IN AN ABUSIVE HOUSEHOLD DAMNIT!
You get mad because people call you out after posting about your experience. Well I read the comments and I read the other articles that you referenced that mention this article. The VAST MAJORITY of people support you. Yeah there were a few jerky comments. It's the internet. I've sure you've encountered a few trolls in your blogging days.
You need to stop making excuses about how you deserve this treatment and make it stop. I'd love to hear what your therapist had to say when you had your next session after you posted these two stories. I'm sure he or she had something to say about it. You are calling out for help whether you realize it or now. People are answering – You just don't like what we are saying…
Posted by Jennifer on February 17, 2012 at 9:26 pm | permalink |
If you've honestly evaluated the risk/reward on this and are willing to go for it, I can only wish you well.
Back in the 60s and 70s, Mom was very good at leaving abusive guys. I wonder if she would've been strong enough and gutsy enough to blog about it.
Posted by Michael LaRocca on February 22, 2012 at 6:38 am | permalink |