Divorce is immature and selfish. Don’t do it.
Divorce is always on my mind because I got a divorce four years ago. Not that I wanted to. In fact, when I thought we were going to a couples therapist we were actually going to a divorce mediator. And then, when it was clear that we were going to have to get a divorce, and I had all the money to fund it, my lawyer finally said to me, “If you drag your feet any longer, you’re going to have to get a new lawyer because I’m retiring.”
So we got a divorce. I hated it. (And of course, I blogged about it the whole time.) Subsequently I have become a vocal critic of divorce. I think it’s an incredibly lame and selfish route to take. Here are five reasons why:
1. Divorce is a cliche among people in denial.
I see divorce in every story. For example, as soon as I heard about the school shootings in Chardon, OH, I got stuck on the fact that the kid’s parents had just gotten a divorce and left him with his grandparents. I blame the parents.
Heather Armstrong is a great blogger who I have followed for years. But I’m really stuck on the news that she just announced a separation from her husband.
Armstrong supports her family with her blog, dooce.com, which is about herself, so of course, I watch her really closely. In her post announcing that she had asked her husband to leave, she said the two common, and delusional things we hear from divorced parents all the time:
“I can’t be a good parent if I’m not happy and I’ll never be happy in this marriage.”
and
“The kids are doing so well. Kids are really resilient.”
I’ve heard those things so many times. From parents who are getting a divorce who are full of shit.
The dad who tells everyone he got a divorce because his wife is crazy and then leaves his kids with the mom. Newsflash: if your wife is really crazy, then you are crazy for leaving your kids alone with her. In fact, you are not crazy, you’re willfully negligent. And if your wife is not really crazy then get your butt back to the house and raise your kids like an adult.
The mom who says the kids are fine. What does that mean? Do you know that if you ask kids who are living with a crack addict mom if they are fine, they’ll say yes. They’ll say they want to stay. Because kids are trying to survive.
2. Divorce is nearly always terrible for kids. Your case is not the exception.
Kids do not break down during a divorce because they see their parents breaking down. The kids see that one parent just abandoned them. Of course the kid is not going to have a compete fit and push another parent away in anger. Read The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, which is Judith Wallerstein’s 25-year study of children of divorce. It’s the only study that covers such a long period of time, and she concludes that divorce is absolutely terrible for kids over the long-term. And a wide range of studies have concurred.
It’s completely obvious how Wallerstein gets to her conclusion. Think of it this way: Two parents decide they don’t like living together and they want to start over. They can’t meet their needs by simply living together and making the best of it. They want a new chance, in a new household.
Where does this leave the kids? They don’t get a new chance until they grow up. So now they have to shuttle back and forth between two homes so that their parents can get another chance. Meanwhile, the kids don’t get a second chance at their childhood. And the most damaging thing about divorce is that the kids don’t have a home; to say a kid has two homes is the same as saying the kid has no home. Because a home is your basecamp. If you have two basecamps you don’t have a home.
And anyway, if having two homes really worked, then the parents who are so upset about living together can each have a different home during the day, while the kids are at school, and then come back to their other home. But no one would do that, right? Because having two homes sucks.
3. Divorce is for dumb people.
In case you are thinking that divorce is normal among smart, educated parents, you would be wrong. The divorce rate is plummeting among educated women. For example, among Asian women with a college degree the divorce rate is one percent. Divorce is for people who can’t think ahead enough to realize that the cost to the kids is so high that it’s not worth the benefits the parents get.
4. Divorce reflects mental illness.
I have been reading tons of books about borderline personality disorder and parenting, and I’m surprised that no one has pointed out that the decision to divorce is similar to the decision making process that you get with borderline personality disorder.
For example, a parent with BPD is often unable to separate their own wellbeing from their child’s. The person with BPD is afraid of not being loved and makes all their decisions based on that fear.
So, the person decides they are not receiving proper love in their marriage and then decides that the children would be better off if the marriage were over. The marriage being over is not good for the children. But that is not the issue.
Why do we treat people with BPD as mentally ill and people getting a divorce as adults making adult decisions?
5. Divorce is often a career issue. I can help with that.
So many times I have been coaching someone who thought they need a divorce, but really, the marriage has a career issue. So, look, when there are no kids, I don’t think there’s a lot of collateral damage when two people want a divorce. But maybe I can save a few children’s childhoods by telling you some common problems and how to solve them:
The woman is pissed that her husband hasn’t gotten a good paying job in years.
This type of woman feels overly responsible for taking care of the family. And she feels taken advantage of by the guy because she thinks he could get a job if he wanted to. (This is probably where Heather is coming from since her husband, who has been working on her blog for years, announced he is looking for a job.)
The problem, though, is that the woman married a guy who doesn’t want to have a big career. She knew this before they got married, but she chose to ignore it. There was probably something she liked about him, something she needed from him, that he provided. Now she wants something different.
The solution is to stop being angry at the guy for not getting a job. Remember that the kids love him and remind yourself the reasons you loved him when you married him. Those things are still there. If you get a divorce you are not going to be able to miraculously stop working. So bite the bullet and accept where you are and finish raising the kids.
Bonus: If you start loving your husband again you will probably love your job again because you’ll feel good that the job allows you to create a happy family.
The guy who thinks his wife is holding back his career.
Oh, god, I hear this so many times. The guy is not where he wants to be in his career. He has so many ideas, so many dreams, and he is really unhappy where his is.
The answer here is: tough shit. You had kids before you fulfilled all your career dreams. Unless you are independently wealthy, you have to scale back your dreams when you have kids because you can’t take wild financial risks with your family’s wellbeing.
So you have kids and a wife, and you have to get a reality check that you are not going to be Mark Zuckerberg. It’s okay. Just focus on being a good father and a good husband and stay with your wife and kids.
It is incredibly selfish and immature to decide your kids should have to shuttle between two families so you can take another swing at a home run. It’s time for you to be a good dad. That’s your job now. You owe it to your kids.
Bonus: Once you start taking pride in being a good parent and a good husband, you will have better self-esteem and your career will get better as a result of that.
The person who is bored and wants out.
So many people get divorced because they are bored. This blows my mind. Your kids are not bored with your marriage. Your kids need boring at home in order to have the necessary foundation to fly outside the home. If your kids are focused on creating their own stability bouncing between two parents then the kids can’t focus on figuring out who they are while they grow up. They have to spend their time figuring out who their family is. And that’s not fair to your kids.
A job absolutely 100% cannot make you happy. A happy family can make you happy and it’s possible that nothing else really even comes close to making a person happy.
So instead of messing up your family in order to make yourself happy, keep your family together and use your job to address your boredom problem. A fun job can make your life more interesting. Your spouse is not in your life to make you feel interesting. Your spouse is there to love you and raise your kids with you. Don’t ask for anything else.
If you want to feel more interesting then go do something more interesting. And come home for dinner.
The person who says they are a victim of violence.
Two-thirds of divorces take place in low-conflict homes, and in those cases, the kids are much better off if the parent just stick it out.
So let’s look at high-conflict homes: It takes two people to fight. And there’s great research to show that if you picked an asshole the first time, you’ll pick the same type of asshole the second time. (Which is why divorce rates for second marriages are so much higher than first marriages.) So instead of getting rid of your kids’ parent, figure out why you picked a person like this, and then get good at drawing boundaries.
Really, good boundaries can save even the worse marriages. Taking care of your own contribution to the mess can single-handedly stop the mess.
This is especially true of violence. At this point in the history, where women have so much earning power, women are equally as responsible for men for the violence in a household. In fact, the US Centers for Disease Control reports that most domestic violence today is a 50/50 thing. Both parties are responsible. Which means that even if you have one of the worst marriages, you have the power to fix it.
And if you don’t use that power—if you don’t fundamentally change how you are in the marriage in order to stop the craziness, then you will not only recreate it in your next relationship, but you will continue to model it for your kids.
So look, I don’t see any reason left that makes divorce ok when there are kids. Personal responsibility always trumps running away. And yes, here are the links to my own marital violence and my decison to stay and fix it. I’m practicing what I preach. I’m working really hard at keeping my own marriage together. It’s a cold, lonely place to be in life. But it’s better than the alternative.
Because divorce is the ultimate example of just running away. And, while your kids probably will not pull out a gun in the school cafeteria, long-term sadness and a lingering inability to connect to other people is an irrefutable result of divorce. It’s something that you can prevent.
It’s interesting how we use data to support out often ill-informed, poorly thought out opinions. I’ll keep an open mind regarding your thoughts on divorce, and how it’s selfish, especially regarding children, when you remove yourself and your children from a home where you, by your own admission, have received physical abuse at the hands of your own partner. Let’s get a few behavioral therapists on here to discuss which is the greater of two evils being manifested in a child’s life.
I don’t pretend to have all the answers when it comes to marriage, so I’m trying my best not to judge.
But I’m in a marriage where we try to build each other up, not break each other down. Hearing about emotional, physical and mental abuse between partners like this is just sad and so unnecessary. I can’t honestly agree that your children would be better off watching you thrown to the ground in anger rather than seeing you stand on your own two feet and make them, instead of an abusive man, the priority in your life.
Your strong, no-shades-of-grey statements just sound like a desperate justification of your poor choices. Step back and realize that your home life doesn’t have to be miserable.
I just feel sorry for you. And you’re only making things worse, not better, by painting yourself into a corner and taking divorce from a toxic relationship off the table.
Good luck…I think you’re going to need it.
Do you get paid by views, or by comments?
Anyway, here goes my comment:
Your children are very cute, so I hope this comment help support them :)
You are welcome
Thanks :)
I don’t get paid by views or comments. I get paid for my influence. That said, I love the comments so so much. I love reading them. I love that people will discuss what I’m interested in. I learn so much from the comments. So the true payment for this blog, for me, is reading the comments.
Thanks for leaving one :)
Penelope
“The person who says they are a victim of violence.
Two-thirds of divorces take place in low-conflict homes, and in those cases, the kids are much better off if the parent just stick it out.
So let’s look at high-conflict homes: It takes two people to fight. And there’s great research to show that if you picked an asshole the first time, you’ll pick the same type of asshole the second time. (Which is why divorce rates for second marriages are so much higher than first marriages.) So instead of getting rid of your kids’ parent, figure out why you picked a person like this, and then get good at drawing boundaries.”
Yes, please continue telling battered women to stay in their situation “for the kids”. There’s a high chance the kids are experiencing this as well. And the men doing it aren’t going to stop hitting you because you tell them they are crossing a boundary. Please. What a joke.
and you think Dooce is the crazy one? Wow.
how true! nothing shows children love like keeping your wealth consolidated! it’s usually the top concern among children. or selfish hypocrites.
Of course, you read “wealth” as “lots of wealth.” I meant it as “the little wealth we have.” (Many middle-class women are plunged into poverty after divorce.) I bet you went to some great, cool place for vacation this year, didn’t you? Nice to be childless and “selfish” — I wouldn’t know what that’s like.
It’s really disappointing that this firestorm of criticism is really only about the small percentage of people in abusive relationships. It seems that anyone who has been in an abusive relationship thinks it’s epidemic. But for most of us, the misery of marriage has nothing to do with abuse but with years of boredom and minor irritations. Even when the someone you’re with is a fine person. And so, those of us who slog on are made to feel like chumps. Those of you who think life is so blithe after divorce are contributing to a more volatile and arbitrary society. The wealth of my household is consolidated and it will remain so — for the kids, and despite everything else.
Yo, here’s the deal: abuse IS epidemic. Because when children are witness to it, they mimic it and grow on to pass on the cycle of abuse to their own kids. Which is why posts encouraging men and women in abusive relationships to take “their share of the blame” and stay together “for the children” are totally bogus. That’s a poisonous idea.
Staying with your husband because he annoys you sometimes doesn’t make you a saint, Angela, it makes you an adult, and given that you’re definitely over the age of 18, you don’t get extra credit for that one.
Message received. And now I’m going to tiptoe backwards out of this loony bin, and you can go back to volunteering at the shelter or whatever.
I have no statistics to indicate that domestic violence is “epidemic” or not, but I think I can safely say that there is far too much of it for me to consider our society “healthy” or “mature”.
With few exceptions, the kind of personality that leads one to hurt anyone who is weaker, especially children, is a very damaged and warped one. And this damage usually comes from one having been exposed to such abuse themselves.
(And for the *exceptions*, such as those with things like Asperger’s, their’s still damage, but it’s genetic, not learned.)
It’s also important to remember that there are many forms of neglect — not just physical, but negligence and emotional abuse, which can be just as devastating. Cruelty begets cruelty.
The first mature act a person in such a situation can do is decide that they aren’t going to take it anymore. And, given the likelihood that an abuser will not get better in a reasonable amount of time — and, in fact, is more likely to get worse — the only reasonable result from this decision is to leave.
This is not to be judgmental about those who don’t leave. Although it sounds odd, leaving such a situation can be incredibly difficult, for the thousands of reasons already posted by others here. Like any bad relationship, it often takes a process of maturing to realize how bad it is, and that you have the right and ability to get out of it.
I’m rambling here, I suppose (it’s late), but it probably doesn’t matter much because Angela has decided that it’s not worth discussing different points of view and has “tiptoed” away to her ideological oasis. I guess she’s just that much smarter than the rest of us. ;)
Is marriage about you, or is it about more than you? I suspect that the people arguing over whether the kids should come first or the parents should don’t agree on what marriage fundamentally is.
That said, I’m not sure that being absolutely against divorce in 100% of cases is any good either. Cases of abuse, hard drug use, and other life-threatening behavior certainly warrant the question of divorce, separation, or annulment.
Theres is quite a bit of “all other things being equal” implied here. And I get the “general” arguments that you are making and with the broad brush strokes you have used then sure, most of the points you make a valid enough I suppose.
But I could spend thousands of words hitting you with realistic scenarios that shatter many of these arguments.
I agree with you as long as you are not complaining about the dad/marriage in front of the kids, I think they can find where to stand.
I agree with most of what P has said.
I’m married. My husband left me for another woman. Almost ruined me. I’m stable now. He wants to come back. I cannot take that risk. However, we are still married. The kids do not go back and forth between two homes – MY home is their home. Their father comes and stays at my home a couple of nights a week (different bed). When he’s at my house, we hug and share warm family time. They know he lives elsewhere, but they never go there for a visit. It is not much different than when he lived with us and went away on business. My children are still grounded. Their parents are still married. I’ve worked hard to minimize the change in their lives. It has been worth it.
No.
No, no, no.
My parents got divorced when I was 8. My dad was abusive to my mom AND his children. She finally got the courage to leave. I WAS SO ECSTATIC. I was so happy to get out of that home. Her next marriage? The nicest, sweetest man. They’ve been married 20 years.
If anyone here is delusional, it’s you.
Katy, I had the same experience, and I agree with your assessment.
Nobody gets it that the children are being divorced too. As adult children of divorced parents, my husband and I struggled to keep our marriage together through the worst experiences. Most of those experiences are directly related to the dissolution of our families of origin. We figured we’d already been divorced once and didn’t want to go through that again or drag our kids through it. So we dealt with it and moved on. Happy to say that’s it’s human to forget and forgive.
sooo…all this said, and you and the FOYC (father of your children) went and got divorced and now you are in a fake marriage with the farmer. Who is intermittently abusive to you but hopefully not to rhe kids, who knows.
there are good marriages, bad marriages. Good divorces, bad divorces.
PLEASE unsubscribe me!
O, the professional advice givers ___ doing so after the fact in their own lives. Blah, blah, blah. Retired professionals who failed as administrators in education write long articles/books about how to fix the current state of public education; as do so many professionals who failed in Christian ministries. Penelope, you’re certain that you made a mistake. That’s your guilt trip __ don’t push “counsel guilt” on others to earn a tidy living. Perhaps during your founding “three startups, including Brazen Careerist” you should have first embraced the love of the partner YOU chose. Joseph Hazelwood would not be the person I would seek out for nautical advice.
Great article. You’re very sharp arent you Penelope. And I aint being sarcastic. That’s why I read you. It’s all about change.
You know what? I thought I had said all I had to say, but a day later I was still incensed enough to write an entire post on the topic. Read here if you’re interested in my two cents: New post, in which I ream Penelope Trunk’s ass for her recent post on divorce: http://www.theworld4realz.com/2012/03/01/daggone-you-penelope-trunk/
“Divorce is nearly always terrible for kids. Your case is not the exception.”
Sorry, but you’re wrong in my parents’ case. The entire family, and especially the kids, benefited tremendously after their divorce, and its just gotten better since. Unlike you, I don’t care to turn the gritty details of my past into a soap opera for the world to see, so I’ll spare them, but let’s just say that your past decade of Internet history in NO WAY qualifies you to give relationship advice of any sort, and leave it at that.
I’m truly sorry that certain things in your life didn’t work out, like your marriage and your Master’s degree. But for other people, their choices are working well for them. No matter – you barrel ahead like a stubborn ox at every turn carping about the mere existence of life choices you personally don’t agree with.
There’s a whole big world out there that doesn’t involve you. Your life and its choices have no bearing on anyone else’s.
Finally, stop dragging the good name of people with Asperger’s through the mud and sacrificing their integrity on the altar of your histrionics. The unemployment rate is high enough for Aspies without your help. And in case you haven’t heard, now we’re in a recession, so this group doesn’t need hiring managers thinking that having Asperger’s means they’re going to put porno-lit photos of their asses on the Internet, tweet about their miscarriages, or make blogs about every single dirty detail of their pasts.
If you want to discuss Asperger’s in a sympathetic fashion, you could start by visiting WrongPlanet. You’ll find that most of that board’s participants are introverted, private, and loath to air their dirty laundry to the world (and they all understand how sex works, by the way).
If you’re really smart, you’ll do some Google research about you reputation in the Asperger’s community over the past year. It ain’t pretty, and if you don’t correct it, things will get worse.
You’re actually hurting people for the sake of traffic and ad revenue. Stop it.
And seconded the comment upthread about battered spouses staying “for the kids.”
Will you post a follow-up to this entry about how child abuse and neglect build character, and removing children from abusive homes is “immature and selfish,” too?
i’ve never even heard of penelope trunk… until this post was featured on a website that people actually read. it’s too bad your utter irrelevance has made you take on the persona of ann coulter. spewing complete nonsense and inflammatory “thoughts” to gain a minor amount of infamy explains a lot about you and why you think abuse is just tough love.
Penelope is anti-divorce? Strange that she’s never mentioned that before.
As has been documented many times over, Penelope is a complete idiot in how she runs her real life. But as a blogger, she is a brilliant sociopath. She claims otherwise, but she knows exactly what buttons to push to get a 300 comment post. This is a craft she has carefully honed over the years. Timing is critical. The bombs must be spaced out, with the interim filled with tame reasonable content. Otherwise her credibility drops to zero and nobody pays attention.
Why does she let blistering comments stand? Honesty and transparency, as she claims? Hell no. If she deleted them she’d lose most of her traffic, and she knows that.
If you got upset about this or any other post, you’ve simply been played. It’s not personal. It’s her business. All about the bucks.
Hello: Excellent post–I work for a divorce lawyer, and most of this seems very sound to me. However– I think you should back up your coverage of the violaence issue with more data and more argument. We see an awful lot of battering at this firm; a surprising number of people seem to have no other way to get what they want from a partner or express frustration, and it’s not just men. It does tend to go along with alcohol and drug abuse, which we see even more of. (And is also terrible for children.) On the other hand, it is way too easy to swear out a DV complaint these days, also not just men. But I’m not sure how I would handle it if I were living with someone who was hitting me–or my kids–and I think of myself as a reasonably competent person.
The dad who tells everyone he got a divorce because his wife is crazy and then leaves his kids with the mom.
My husband’s dad did this. He left his first wife when he met his second. He had to leave her, he explained, because she was an alcoholic.
And he left his two little boys with her. He claims he tried to get custody, but fathers weren’t getting custody in the early 60s.
He abandoned those boys to an alcoholic mother because he cared more about himself than he cared about the two children he had created. What a lousy excuse for a human being.
I have contemplated many times. Always saying I am just not meant to be married. Wanted out of the doldrums to experience new life. But deep down I knew that everything you say in this blog is true. The children will suffer. If what you’re doing is worth it to you, then go for it. But just be honest with yourself and know that in some way the children will be the price that will be paid.
CPS needs to be contacted immediately. Where are your girl-friends? Where is your Mother? Are the women in your life REALLY condoning you staying in an abusive relationship with your children!? I doubt it. Seek help. Mental, physical, and judicial.
Emy –
First of all, why are you (and apparently others) taking this post as though it relates somehow to Penelope’s personal situation and that the advice is directed towards people who are experiencing severe abuse.
First of all, Penelope can do whatever she feels she needs to do about her marriage – I don’t think she’s asking my advice about it nor do I assume that this post is about her marriage.
Secondly – yes, I know that she says ‘You are not an exception’ and that’s horseshit – there are always exceptions. I think any reasonable person understands that there are times when divorce is REALLY necessary and there is no other way. I’d say that flagrant infidelity, violence, and severe addiction when the addict won’t seek help pretty much cover the exceptions. The truth is, the portion of the divorces involving those exceptional things is pretty small – most people get divorced because they’ve found a better ‘deal’, or have ‘grown apart’, dont feel ‘in love’ anymore, or have just gottenen bored. Many, many of these later regret it, especially when they have kids.
C’mon folks, there’s alot to be said for sticking it out and doing everything in your power to save a marriage. The one that noone’s talking about is that it shows your children what Will is all about. I’m a willful person – I want the satisfaction of knowing that I made my marriage work in spite of everything else.
As for the rest of the people who are getting all upset over the abuse thing – calm down! Penelope’s not abusing you and she’s not forcing anyone to take her advice (which really wasnt about abuse anyway). People can think for themselves and take (or leave) Penelope’s advice when it suits their own needs.
Great insights! I grew up in a divorced home and share your feelings.
The title of this post should really be changed to “Divorce is immature and selfish when you have kids. Don’t do it.”
And anyway, I really don’t agree with you. My mom divorced my dad. He was a cheating alcoholic who would disappear for days at a time. She married too young. She married her high school sweetheart when she was 18 and really had no idea what kind of a man she was marrying. I was a few years old when they divorced.
Mom married another man that is completely different from my biological dad and they’re still together. They’ve been together for almost 20 years. I’m just fine. In fact, the man she remarried legally adopted me.
It’s just total bullshit that divorce is bad for the kids in all situations. My biological dad spilled his beer on me while I was sleeping in the passenger seat of his truck while he and I were driving somewhere late one night. He spilled his beer on me cause the cop lights behind him startled him. I woke up confused and soaked in beer.
Divorce was the right thing for mom and me.
Wow, I wonder if someone over at the Onion is following this dialog: http://www.theonion.com/articles/christian-couple-staying-together-for-sake-of-god,6305/
What a lack of self-awareness!
This blogger is describing herself, point by point.
Why are people getting upset about this?
As someone whose parents divorced, I can whole-heartedly say that I am better for watching my parents take a situation that was not working and making it a happier, more livable situation. I did not feel abandoned, and I am considered to be a fairly well-adjusted, college-educated Asian woman.
I think it’s unfair and a disservice to take your own situation and apply it to the larger population. A sample size of one is not convincing me.
I think it could just as easily be said that refusal to get a divorce despite being stuck in a shitty, violent marriage is a product of being in denial.
Eh. Just a post to bring in loads of comments, clicks & outrage. And business for herself.
You left out when one parent is abusing the children, not enough to call social services but enough to leave the kids feeling stupid, sick, and suicidal such that staying is more irresponsible than leaving.
In quite a few of your recent posts you seem to be desperately rationalizing your own abusive relationship.
And you’re amazing at rationalizing anything. You know that.
Yet this post is full of absurd causal links and emotionally charged statements like ‘long-term sadness and a lingering inability to connect to other people is an irrefutable result of divorce’.
Irrefutable? Really?
P, this post is crazy and irrational. Which is unlike you. And starting to sound a hell of a lot like denial.
And when your husband is an alcoholic? Drinking himself into a stupor? Getting arrested for DUI? Not meeting probation?
And when your husband kicks the dog, tells your toddler to shut up, gets upset with your special needs child for things the child can’t control? When he breaks things out of anger? Pounds on tables? Screams and flips off strangers because they are in front of him on the road? Loses it when you stop for a yellow light?
And when your husband is bonafide crazy? To the point that he keeps trying to kill himself but every time he’s committed he talks himself out and refuses to go into therapy.
And when your husband is cheating on you with strange men?
Yes, that became my life; it wasn’t in the beginning but it was at the end and I stayed far too long. And you know what.. the kids are fine now that we left. They are in a stable, sane home. They don’t have to put up with the daily meltdowns over trivial stuff.
You know it is time to leave when you think about your child having sleep overs and realize you can’t expose another child to your husband’s explosive behavior.. then you ask yourself, why do you expose your children to it?
Your blog supposes that this was my fault as much as my husband’s. You are wrong.
So Penelope ,you ‘re saying that your mother was wrong to divorce your father , who SEXUALLY abused you ????
I have a guardian of my solitude.
“The point of marriage is not to create a quick commonality by tearing down all boundaries; on the contrary, a good marriage is one in which each partner appoints the other to be the guardian of his solitude, and thus they show each other the greatest possible trust. A merging of two people is an impossibility, and where it seems to exist, it is a hemming-in, a mutual consent that robs one party or both parties of their fullest freedom and development. But once the realization is accepted that even between the closest people infinite distances exist, a marvelous living side-by-side can grow up for them, if they succeed in loving the expanse between them, which gives them the possibility of always seeing each other as a whole and before an immense sky.”
― Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
I’m so disappointed. I was thrilled when I found your site, great writing, deeply engrossing accounts, and helpful career advice. But I’m so done. I supported you when you decided to stay in your marriage and your viewpoint that people make judgments about relationships of others they know nothing about. I supported your deciding to stay because I agreed that nothing is as easy as it seems on the surface and you were entitled to make decisions about your life without judgment from others who don’t know your life as you do. But frankly at the end of the day I can conclude nothing more than you are a deeply unhappy, hypocrite. You blast people for judging you and reducing your life to their value judgments and you turn right around and do the same to others. I’m not sure what purpose this serves in your life, if it makes you feel as if your life decisions are supported because you’ve managed to write about someone else who is so much worse than you are (in your viewpoint certainly not mine- at least Heather doesn’t trash the decisions of others to support her own rationalizations). Whatever the purpose it doesn’t fall within the realm of being a good person. The unproductive bitter rants are transparent and instead of lending your arguments credibility they reek of someone grasping at straws to justify the decisions you’ve made in your own admittedly miserable life. Seek help Pen because you arent going to find what you are looking for this way. In all sincerity I wish you the best, I hope you find your way to a place of peace, I just don’t want any part of someone who conducts themselves this way.
Listen P – you’re an extraordinarily smart woman who can easily use great arguments against divorce to cover over what you’re really talking about: rationalizing staying with the Farmer (i.e: an abusive relationship).
You lay out all the data. Get everyone thinking and some people on your side, “Yeah, divorce is a cop out! It is immature! What bullshit”. And then you slide in the idea that staying in a violent relationship is the way to go because these things are a two way street and if you only work on your relationship more, things will get better.
You’ve been open about your thoughts in past posts (http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/12/28/the-psychology-of-quitting/): You believe you deserve and provoked the Farmer’s violent behavior against you. And this situation reminds you of being removed from your home as a child and that if you were just “better” your relationship with your family would be better. And so, if you just worked harder on yourself to be “better” your relationship with the Farmer would be better too, and your kids would be spared from another divorce and everything that comes along with it.
But, you know full well your kids are not better off seeing their mother get pushed to the ground, hit, kicked or punched. What are you teaching them about love, relationships and trust when you continue rationalizing a seriously dysfunctional and violent relationship – a relationship that would not end due to selfishness but for your own safety, the safety of your children and the hope that you could create a stable environment for them sans the Farmer.
Yes, you’re both having trouble moving past your childhood traumas, but that’s no reason to think it’s because you’re selfish, immature or coping out. In fact, you’re working very hard on yourself and have been for a long time. And, you may even find more success in working on your own issues if you’re not trying to balance them against his. Maybe the real mark of selfishness and immaturity would be if you stayed with the Farmer as a way of repeating and trying to correct your past. Or, if you jumped out of this relationship and into another only to repeat this cycle again.
Good article and perspective on priorities. I can see no benefit, by and large, for kids when the folks tube a marriage.
As an addendum I would add that the place where wool should be gathered is prior to a marriage. Do we WANT kids? BOTH of us? Lotta people appear to make babies because it’s what everyone else does and the huge level of necessary commitment to your kids changes life for a long time. Couples need to be real clear on this prior to marriage.
I always think it’s odd that people think they are entitled to tell other people how to conduct their private lives, but it is especially odd coming from someone who is demonstrably mis-handling her personal life. You’re in an abusive marriage where you had to take your kids to a motel room to get away from a guy who isn’t even their father, but you are staying in it…for their sake? And you think you’re qualified to sit in judgment of other people?
Listen to Liz above. I think she’s probably spot on in her analysis.
Penelope, you aren’t married. I’d love to see the research that indicates staying with your abusive live-in boyfriend, who has never been all that into you, is good for your kids.
The fact people still listen to your rejected ass baffles me. I mean you got fired from yahoo which is the worst media outlet in the world. Seriously, do the world a favor and shut up. An you never played pro volleyball. Stop lying.How many names have you had now? Each one is tainted with shit.
why are you reading this blog?
I think Penelope can do and say what ever she wants. She’s talking about herself not you. You are under no obligation to do what she says or agree with her.
Personally, I think she’s awesome.
I love this post. I think that there are probably some important exceptions to the idea that divorce is *always* bad– obviously this is a complicated issue. But I am so happy to see this issue confronted in a serious way.
This will be one of the posts I return to again and again, that I email to people, and that makes me think so much about my own life. Until now, my favorite post here was the one about women who want kids needing to spend their twenties systematially looking for a husband. Both these posts overturn popular advice (focus on career, don’t stay if it’s not making you happy) in favor of confronting, rather than ignoring, inconvenient realities. I redesigned my life after reading your advice about getting a husband. Now I have one, and I am sure I will turn to this post regularly as we face difficulties.
Here are my questions.
Why is committing to your marriage so lonely and cold? I am sure you are not alone, but why should it be this way? What makes life with someone lonely? Is this just another sad side effect of modern living?
How are you confronting your own contributions to the problems? What are you doing? Is it working? Even a little bit?
How difficult is it to stay committed to the Farmer even though there are problems? What advice can you offer to people struggling to stay with someone through a bad situation?
And finally, although this is not mentioned in this post, you have mentioned it before, how are you dealing with the sexual issues between you and the Farmer? I put this here not as a kind of titllating afterthought, but because I personally have similar difficulties, and I wonder if you might have some insight or at least some links to offer.
Thank you.
I’m inclined to agree with you in most cases. We – none of us – don’t realize just what work goes into a marriage when we first enter. But just because it’s hard and sometimes REALLY hard doesn’t mean there isn’t a renewal of joy and personal satisfaction on the other side.
One part of that being that we teach our kids by SHOWING them what unconditional love is.
I take exception in cases where the kids are being physically/sexually harmed by one spouse. But good food for thought! I appreciate your willingness to take a stance and then let the comments work it out. :)
“we all know that I should have left the last time there was violence.”
You seems to change views an awful lot, P
Our Dear Penelope – rather than judge your situation (as most others are from their biased perspective), I’ll just express hope that you and your family are safe and acting respectful of each other for now. As someone who has appreciated your unique perspective for a long time I sincerely hope you and your family survive this difficulty.
The bottom line on the divorce situation is this: if you and the Farmer are committed to making it work, stay. Your reasoning on the value of staying together is sound both for the partner relationship and the parenting relationship. However, if he is not committed to ending the violence then I hope you soon come to the understanding that you are fooling yourself and likely exposing your kids to danger. Keep in mind that in these situations the male behavior tends to be more black and white and therefore his commitment will be easier to measure.
Your own behavior is a more difficult subject. You’ve expressed your commitment to work it out, but I wonder if you are willing to follow it up with the necessary action?
Any reasoned analysis of this situation would conclude that the continued publication of your marital issues will likely prevent the healing necessary for the relationship to survive. If you haven’t figured that out yet, it’s time to gain a better understanding of how your own behavior affects others. If you have (which I suspect is the case), and are choosing to blog the marital issues anyway, then you’ve chosen to prioritize your career & desire for attention over the well being of your marriage and kids. There are several potential outcomes to that; none of them are good.
You can lead that “interesting life” that you so seek through dozens of other avenues, and at the same time spare yourself and your family the dangerous drama. With sincere compassion, I suggest you stop looking in the mirror and start looking out the window.
Well said.
What will be really sad is when you find out your children learned from you to allow someone to hurt them or to never be able to assert their own feelings/needs in their relationships.
What we do as parents scars our children, period. We owe it to them to make better choices – and sometimes the best choice *for now* is to do the best we can to mitigate the stupid choices we already made.
Sometimes that means divorcing.
I’m sorry, but I disagree with EVERY SINGLE WORD. If my parents were still together, my mother would most likely be dead. My father was an abusive drug-user, who claimed to beat us all for our own good. I’m sorry, but DIVORCE saved our lives. Take it however you will.
My cousin’s mom divorced an abusive man who ran off to mexico with one of his employes, i think she had every right to, it got my cousins out of a bad place and i wish she’d done it sooner.
on there other hand i know someone who got a divorce from her husband because she just didn’t want to be there and now has a girlfriend. her children are a mess, i see them sometimes and they’re always throwing a fit. the oldest one is nine and she’s told me she hates it and wants her mom back together with her dad. they should have stayed together for the children.
its always a tough call.