Divorce is immature and selfish. Don’t do it.
Divorce is always on my mind because I got a divorce four years ago. Not that I wanted to. In fact, when I thought we were going to a couples therapist we were actually going to a divorce mediator. And then, when it was clear that we were going to have to get a divorce, and I had all the money to fund it, my lawyer finally said to me, “If you drag your feet any longer, you’re going to have to get a new lawyer because I’m retiring.”
So we got a divorce. I hated it. (And of course, I blogged about it the whole time.) Subsequently I have become a vocal critic of divorce. I think it’s an incredibly lame and selfish route to take. Here are five reasons why:
1. Divorce is a cliche among people in denial.
I see divorce in every story. For example, as soon as I heard about the school shootings in Chardon, OH, I got stuck on the fact that the kid’s parents had just gotten a divorce and left him with his grandparents. I blame the parents.
Heather Armstrong is a great blogger who I have followed for years. But I’m really stuck on the news that she just announced a separation from her husband.
Armstrong supports her family with her blog, dooce.com, which is about herself, so of course, I watch her really closely. In her post announcing that she had asked her husband to leave, she said the two common, and delusional things we hear from divorced parents all the time:
“I can’t be a good parent if I’m not happy and I’ll never be happy in this marriage.”
and
“The kids are doing so well. Kids are really resilient.”
I’ve heard those things so many times. From parents who are getting a divorce who are full of shit.
The dad who tells everyone he got a divorce because his wife is crazy and then leaves his kids with the mom. Newsflash: if your wife is really crazy, then you are crazy for leaving your kids alone with her. In fact, you are not crazy, you’re willfully negligent. And if your wife is not really crazy then get your butt back to the house and raise your kids like an adult.
The mom who says the kids are fine. What does that mean? Do you know that if you ask kids who are living with a crack addict mom if they are fine, they’ll say yes. They’ll say they want to stay. Because kids are trying to survive.
2. Divorce is nearly always terrible for kids. Your case is not the exception.
Kids do not break down during a divorce because they see their parents breaking down. The kids see that one parent just abandoned them. Of course the kid is not going to have a compete fit and push another parent away in anger. Read The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, which is Judith Wallerstein’s 25-year study of children of divorce. It’s the only study that covers such a long period of time, and she concludes that divorce is absolutely terrible for kids over the long-term. And a wide range of studies have concurred.
It’s completely obvious how Wallerstein gets to her conclusion. Think of it this way: Two parents decide they don’t like living together and they want to start over. They can’t meet their needs by simply living together and making the best of it. They want a new chance, in a new household.
Where does this leave the kids? They don’t get a new chance until they grow up. So now they have to shuttle back and forth between two homes so that their parents can get another chance. Meanwhile, the kids don’t get a second chance at their childhood. And the most damaging thing about divorce is that the kids don’t have a home; to say a kid has two homes is the same as saying the kid has no home. Because a home is your basecamp. If you have two basecamps you don’t have a home.
And anyway, if having two homes really worked, then the parents who are so upset about living together can each have a different home during the day, while the kids are at school, and then come back to their other home. But no one would do that, right? Because having two homes sucks.
3. Divorce is for dumb people.
In case you are thinking that divorce is normal among smart, educated parents, you would be wrong. The divorce rate is plummeting among educated women. For example, among Asian women with a college degree the divorce rate is one percent. Divorce is for people who can’t think ahead enough to realize that the cost to the kids is so high that it’s not worth the benefits the parents get.
4. Divorce reflects mental illness.
I have been reading tons of books about borderline personality disorder and parenting, and I’m surprised that no one has pointed out that the decision to divorce is similar to the decision making process that you get with borderline personality disorder.
For example, a parent with BPD is often unable to separate their own wellbeing from their child’s. The person with BPD is afraid of not being loved and makes all their decisions based on that fear.
So, the person decides they are not receiving proper love in their marriage and then decides that the children would be better off if the marriage were over. The marriage being over is not good for the children. But that is not the issue.
Why do we treat people with BPD as mentally ill and people getting a divorce as adults making adult decisions?
5. Divorce is often a career issue. I can help with that.
So many times I have been coaching someone who thought they need a divorce, but really, the marriage has a career issue. So, look, when there are no kids, I don’t think there’s a lot of collateral damage when two people want a divorce. But maybe I can save a few children’s childhoods by telling you some common problems and how to solve them:
The woman is pissed that her husband hasn’t gotten a good paying job in years.
This type of woman feels overly responsible for taking care of the family. And she feels taken advantage of by the guy because she thinks he could get a job if he wanted to. (This is probably where Heather is coming from since her husband, who has been working on her blog for years, announced he is looking for a job.)
The problem, though, is that the woman married a guy who doesn’t want to have a big career. She knew this before they got married, but she chose to ignore it. There was probably something she liked about him, something she needed from him, that he provided. Now she wants something different.
The solution is to stop being angry at the guy for not getting a job. Remember that the kids love him and remind yourself the reasons you loved him when you married him. Those things are still there. If you get a divorce you are not going to be able to miraculously stop working. So bite the bullet and accept where you are and finish raising the kids.
Bonus: If you start loving your husband again you will probably love your job again because you’ll feel good that the job allows you to create a happy family.
The guy who thinks his wife is holding back his career.
Oh, god, I hear this so many times. The guy is not where he wants to be in his career. He has so many ideas, so many dreams, and he is really unhappy where his is.
The answer here is: tough shit. You had kids before you fulfilled all your career dreams. Unless you are independently wealthy, you have to scale back your dreams when you have kids because you can’t take wild financial risks with your family’s wellbeing.
So you have kids and a wife, and you have to get a reality check that you are not going to be Mark Zuckerberg. It’s okay. Just focus on being a good father and a good husband and stay with your wife and kids.
It is incredibly selfish and immature to decide your kids should have to shuttle between two families so you can take another swing at a home run. It’s time for you to be a good dad. That’s your job now. You owe it to your kids.
Bonus: Once you start taking pride in being a good parent and a good husband, you will have better self-esteem and your career will get better as a result of that.
The person who is bored and wants out.
So many people get divorced because they are bored. This blows my mind. Your kids are not bored with your marriage. Your kids need boring at home in order to have the necessary foundation to fly outside the home. If your kids are focused on creating their own stability bouncing between two parents then the kids can’t focus on figuring out who they are while they grow up. They have to spend their time figuring out who their family is. And that’s not fair to your kids.
A job absolutely 100% cannot make you happy. A happy family can make you happy and it’s possible that nothing else really even comes close to making a person happy.
So instead of messing up your family in order to make yourself happy, keep your family together and use your job to address your boredom problem. A fun job can make your life more interesting. Your spouse is not in your life to make you feel interesting. Your spouse is there to love you and raise your kids with you. Don’t ask for anything else.
If you want to feel more interesting then go do something more interesting. And come home for dinner.
The person who says they are a victim of violence.
Two-thirds of divorces take place in low-conflict homes, and in those cases, the kids are much better off if the parent just stick it out.
So let’s look at high-conflict homes: It takes two people to fight. And there’s great research to show that if you picked an asshole the first time, you’ll pick the same type of asshole the second time. (Which is why divorce rates for second marriages are so much higher than first marriages.) So instead of getting rid of your kids’ parent, figure out why you picked a person like this, and then get good at drawing boundaries.
Really, good boundaries can save even the worse marriages. Taking care of your own contribution to the mess can single-handedly stop the mess.
This is especially true of violence. At this point in the history, where women have so much earning power, women are equally as responsible for men for the violence in a household. In fact, the US Centers for Disease Control reports that most domestic violence today is a 50/50 thing. Both parties are responsible. Which means that even if you have one of the worst marriages, you have the power to fix it.
And if you don’t use that power—if you don’t fundamentally change how you are in the marriage in order to stop the craziness, then you will not only recreate it in your next relationship, but you will continue to model it for your kids.
So look, I don’t see any reason left that makes divorce ok when there are kids. Personal responsibility always trumps running away. And yes, here are the links to my own marital violence and my decison to stay and fix it. I’m practicing what I preach. I’m working really hard at keeping my own marriage together. It’s a cold, lonely place to be in life. But it’s better than the alternative.
Because divorce is the ultimate example of just running away. And, while your kids probably will not pull out a gun in the school cafeteria, long-term sadness and a lingering inability to connect to other people is an irrefutable result of divorce. It’s something that you can prevent.
I cried when I read this – you are so right.
Great post. Aside from the crazy-sick situations like alcohol addiction abuse, childern abuse, i totally agree with you.
You have clearly done some decent although highly selective research on this subject, and while it is indeed extremely sad that divorce statistics are consistently on the rise and such an accepted thing now in our society, I’m afraid that I do not agree at all with your over-riding statement. Posts like these which make such bold statements are great for comment stats as they are sure to elicit much response, and good for you for being ballsy enough to make such a strong statement but I do feel that your approach is a little one-sided. Looking at celebrities who marry and divorce in the blink of an eye gives many people a poor example and that marriage is trite and divorce an easy get-out. I agree with you that couples should take a good hard look at why they want to divorce and suck it up and work on improving things in many cases. Someone dear to me has just been deserted by her partner – oh, and their two kids – and he didn’t even want to try. That is pathetic and he fits right into your post. On the other hand however my parents divorced and yes I grew up shuttling during holidays which in many ways I hated but in reality it shaped much of who I am and helped me deal with change far better than my sisters who grew up in a solid family. I strongly believe that as parents we guide our children in who they can aim to be one day as their role models and what acceptable behaviour is. So suggesting that people remain in a violent relationship is effectively saying a) that you are telling your kids that it is fine and normal to either accept this behaviour or to beat up on someone and b) (which is quite concerning) that the victim of abuse is responsible for someone not having boundaries and control of themselves, which is frankly a load of crap. It is categorically wrong to harm someone else, and if you are someone who pushes buttons to make that happen and then decide you need to leave in order to stop that, that is the safest thing to do or you risk endangering your life and your children’s. I also have a friend whose kids will regularly say “daddy’s an a**hole” because they have heard their mother say it. Brilliant, among other things this is what they now expect as acceptable in a relationship. I was very fortunate as my mother remarried not long after her divorce and I had a solid relationship – a real one, cracks and all – to look up to. Am I broken, traumatised by my childhood experiences of shuttling back and forth? No, only by how useless my father was at being a dad sometimes and I am utterly relieved that my mother showed me an important lesson – you are the master of your own ship in life and you can take action to guide its course. I just don’t feel that you can categorically say that divorce is wrong without considering individual situations.
Another comment from an unharmed and unfazed child of divorce….the only difficult part of my childhood was having to move – and that was not a result of divorce but of my then married parents’ desire to live in a different city for their jobs.
Am really troubled by the last para on violence. I get your point that both parties are often responsible, but sometimes they are just not, or rather sometimes the only responsibility of the abused party is to get the heck outta dodge because the abuser will not change…you can’t really be saying that people getting physically and emotionally abused should stick around in their marriages, can you?
So formulaic. Take an absolute stand on an emotionally charged issue, throw in plenty of inflaming words like denial, dumb, immature, selfish. Then watched the comments roll in. Classic Penelope. Works every time.
Some of the same people who cheered when she briefly left the farmer are also raving about this piece. And they no doubt will adore the post where she justifies their final breakup (not divorce, as they’re not married.) Most people have to buy a dog to get that kind of unconditional love.
Or start a cult! Dogs and cults are both great for loyalty.
Domestic violence can be solved with “good boundaries”? What. The. Fuck. Do you know what having boundaries means? It means that you DON’T STAY IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH A PERSON WHO VALUES YOU SO LITTLE THAT THEY BELIEVE THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO HIT YOU. Love is an action. Someone who hits you DOESN’T LOVE YOU, doesn’t respect you, and sure as fuck doesn’t deserve to call himself your husband.
Boundaries are having self-respect. You can stop doing all the “behaviors” that “cause” him to hit you, but they always find NEW REASONS. Even if they stop for a while, they won’t stop forever. There is only one way to fix an abusive relationship: GET THE FUCK OUT. And then get into therapy and work on yourself and develop real boundaries and self-esteem and learn to recognize healthy and unhealthy relationship behavior.
It’s very hard for people who grew up in an abusive environment to know what love is because they do associate love with violence and codependence and suffering. But that’s not love. It’s not at all. And I hope you get your kids out of there and find a healthy relationship so they don’t grow up and make the same mistake.
Thank you for saying so well, so much that needs to be said.
P knows how to set off the comments bomb.
LOL! Look at all the women commenters here who have hurt feelings because someone elicited from them pangs of guilt that they threw their own marriages away!
Hell hath no fury like a woman desperately trying to maintain her delusions…
Did I miss the blog that stated you are a licensed and certified psychiatrist or psychologist? Have you been reading a “ton” about Borderline Personality Disorder because you can identify? You are not qualified to make any comparison or give any advice regarding a mental illness. You have used your talented writing reinforce the stigma that suffocates mental health awareness. As a mental health professional, I suggest DBT for you. If you have done so much reading, you know that it is the most successful therapy for BPD.
I have to completely disagree. My parents’ divorce when I was 9 years old was the best thing that could have happened to my family. Both parents eventually found another spouse who was more compatible for them and gave them happiness and satisfaction. I would choose the life I had with divorced parents over the life I had with married parents 20 times over. Divorce is so complicated, you can’t just wrap it up in a pretty statistical box and declare the children ruined.
I absolutely agree with you Elyse!
I don’t think there is any point to a loveless marriage. If you don’t love each other any more then move on and find love somewhere else. I personally believe that to love and be loved is the key to a happy life. Babies who are deprived of love will die. I think something in adults deprived of love dies too. They become angry and bitter human beings and probably have a shorter life span. Just my opinion.
I was losing my mind trapped in my marriage. Lack of freedom can make people crazy. If I stayed, I would have become mentally ill and it would have brought on whatever cancer or disease is lurking in my genes.
Unhappiness prompts physical illness and dementia. Get divorced and save yourself. Find out what you really want in life before meeting someone new. Work on yourself first and become great…. then go out and meet someone new.
One thing that really struck me about your post is how profoundly old fashioned it sounded. Stay together for the children? Don’t be selfish? Work out your problems? It seems to almost be from another era. One really important point you made is that divorce is uncommon among the highly educated and successful. Having a long term relationship with the same spouse creates a support system that the divorced usually don’t have — and that is usually better for kids as the family is both an economic and a social unit. The unfortunate trend in our society is that divorce (along with drug use) is increasingly common among lower income people — those who have the least margin for error in a country that doesn’t offer much in the way of social support.
This article is incredibly ignorant and I’m surprised you thought it was a good idea.
Also what the everloving fuck at the paragraph about domestic violence?
I’m not a regular follower of your blog but a friend of mine forwarded this post since I write about divorce. Just as marriages come in all shapes and sizes so do divorces and the ongoing parenting afterwards. It’s so highly individualized and is far from black and white.
I can’t help wondering what you would advise someone who wrote and said their boss was abusive? Would you advise them to stick it out, work through it with HR help? Would you advise them to stay because their teammates really needed them? Why would you set lower expectations for your marriage than for your employer?
Great column and you raise great points but of course there are no absolutes. Divorce in some cases is unavoidable (as in yours for example). There is one silver lining coming from a divorced family which I have. When you come from a divorced family you emerge with a motivation to create a better marriage and an awareness that more is required from you to make that happen. Many of the couples we know that divorced came from intact familes and they are truly mystified as to what has happended to them. Conversely, some of the more stable marriages are inhabitied by individuals who came from a broekn home and realize that a good marriage takes constant self-examnation and recommittment and these same individuals possess the lifelong motivation to follw such a recipe thanks to their childhood expereinces. Of course, even then it may not be enough because your spouse may stop growing. You advice is admirable, even noble, but in practice almost impossible. Thank you though for your constant willingess to put yourself out there as an example.
For the vast majority of scenarios, this article is both blunt and spot on.
My mother abused me and my father every day, screaming at me until my father came home and then screaming at him until she went to sleep. I don’t know what excuses he made for not removing me from this situation, but I imagine that a lot of his reasoning was similar to the reasoning on this blog entry.
I loved this because it resonates with me and where I am.
I don’t think the Farmer is abusive; I think Penelope is manipulative. I think she likely knows exactly what to say and what to do to get a violent response. Of course he shouldn’t hit her, but I imagine that she backs him into a corner leaving him no choice (of course we all have a choice, but sometimes we don’t). At least that’s what would happen at my house.
And I imagine that once he has had his physical outburst, she might feel calm. The way a cutter does. Provoking someone else to be violent towards you saves you from having to do it to yourself. This somehow feels less crazy. At least it made me feel less crazy.
He probably feels like shit.
But we don’t know his side of the story. Nor will we ever. So we can only speculate. Right before the Farmer shut down his blog to non-subscribers, the last sentence of his entry about reviewing insulated overalls (I miss the Farmer’s blog) was that what you read on blogs is not reality. Point taken.
If the Farmer were truly abusive, would he not intimidate her to shut down her blog? Prevent her from having a voice. My husband’s father is a truly abusive man. His mother had no voice, no privacy, no life. She was his victim. I don’t feel that way about Penelope. Nor do I blame her. All relationships are complicated. We know this. To simplify one aspect of a relationship is to do it a great injustice.
My feeling is that Penelope may be under tremendous stress from feeling isolated on the farm and spending her days homeschooling. She is open about these struggles. She talks about drugs, forgoing rules. This sounds scary to me. She might feel torn between her responsibilities and her desire to flee. This is how I often feel. Life is friggin’ hard. How easy would it just be to pack up and start all over? Of course starting all over doesn’t exist. It’s the perfect fantasy.
Instead of tearing apart her argument by presenting the exceptions and calling her delusional, I think we should support and encourage Penelope’s decision to choose responsibility. Cheers to her.
I’m in total agreement with your article. The majority of marriages can work if both parties are committed to keeping the family unit together. I am married to a divorced man with two children. So I am the step-mom. The children are now grown and in their 20’s. But, it was so very difficult (on all of use) when the kids were younger and had to go back and forth between our home and their mom’s house. Two households are not better than one, and it’s much more expensive. I believe the kids do have emotional issues because of the instability in their childhood As adults, both of these kids are determined to never put their children through a divorce (they say). It is also interesting that my husband and the mom of the kids both now state that they wish they would’ve stuck it out and made the marriage work. They divorced for selfish reasons simlar to what is in this article (no abuse was present). But what is done is done, and everyone had to live with the consequences.
Yes many divorcies are very petty and most couples need to make more of an effort…”choose the one you love, and than love that choice”. However, No one should ever and I mean EVER, stay in a marriage (or relationship) where there is abuse(physical, emotional or otherwise)! It makes me sick that you have people reading this and agreeing with you. Staying in that kind of relationship when you have children does more damage to the children, than leaving your partner. All you teach them is that, that kind of relationship is ok… that it is ok to hit, that it is ok to demean someone. And the fact that you would stay in that kind of marriage doesn’t give you brownie points for “toughing it out” it only means you are selfish for not wanting another marriage to fail. You are doing your children no favours at all. And are causing much more harm because of it. You are also causing harm to your children’s future relationships or marriages. And sadly if this is the state of mind you are in, your probably not a fit parent….
I’m hoping that most people just don’t have very good reading comprehension skills and/or don’t have the requisite life experience for someone talking about abuse to MEAN anything.
Penelope, while on the surface it seems you have a clearly thought out and well-researched post, I have to agree commenter Gib Wallis when he says that we are no statistics and when we do use statistics to back up our assertions, we can, and often do, use the wrong ones. I also agree wholeheartedly with commenter Deborah Hymes when they she says that no one can speak in absolutes for anyone else when it comes to situations like this. Just because you are regretful and (clearly) bitter about your own divorce doesn’t mean that anyone who decides to go that route will be the same.
The annals of loveless marriages overflow with stories about partners who stay for the children. This is partially why websites like Ashley Madison are so successful and why TheModernCheater.com has an inbox full of emails each day from people wanting some love and passion in their lives and hoping that an affair will fulfill their needs.
Penelope, I feel for you and your regrets at your divorce, but next time try to realize that there is no cookie cutter way to come at an issue as complex as divorce, and speak for yourself.
As Dennis Miller says, “Life is tough, wear a cup.”
I’m having trouble with a couple parts of this post. Instead of telling people they shouldn’t divorce at all, maybe you should be talking about how if they want to divorce, that responsibility and accountability to their children is the most important thing, and if they cant manage that, they shouldn’t get divorced.
There are two main things I don’t like about this post. First, I don’t necessarily agree that it’s better for a kid to live in one house with two parents who can’t stand each other and fight all the time than it would be to live in two houses, with two separate but devoted and balanced parents. Not all divorces end with one parent abandoning their children to work on themselves. One of my best friends growing up had her parents divorce, but they were both still very devoting to being there for her all of the time, and now as an adult she is in a loving stable marriage. I on the other hand, with parents who “stuck it out” have yet to find a relationship that doesn’t closely resemble the one my parents had while we were growing up. Happy one minute, screaming the next. I think the way people are in their marriages sets an example for their children when they grow up and begin having their own serious relationships. (and children are not stupid. They know when their parents aren’t happy but are putting on a brave face just for them). Which brings me to my second problem with this.
Victims of violence. Most people who divorce over violence are not the victims of one bruise on their leg because their spouse threw something at them. Or because they were pushed by their spouse a few of times. Domestic violence is a really serious issue, and people who stay in an abusive relationship are only increasing the chances that said violence will also be enacted on their children. They are also showing their children that that is acceptable behavior. Something that breeds people who believe they can abuse their own spouses later in life, or people who believe they need to accept abuse from someone else as something they just have to deal with. Telling people who are victims of domestic violence to “set boundaries” sounds so ridiculous I don’t even know how to address it. Just because domestic violence is now more of a 50/50 thing (which BTW your link really just explains that that both men and women are being abused, not that in relationships where there is abuse the abuse is 50/50) does not automatically mean that they can fix it by setting boundaries. esp not in cases of serious abuse. My sister was murdered by her husband. He abused her in smaller ways for a long time (punched her, slapped her, choked her, threw her on the ground while she was pregnant) and one night he hit her a few times and then choked her a little longer than he meant to and he killed her. Do you know why she had stayed with him so long? She wanted them to be a family. They had a son. He had promised to change and she had promised to help him. For their family, for their children. Look how well that worked out for her.
I think this is a dangerous post, and a bit misguided. While I sorta agree with your main idea behind it, I think there are exceptions, and I think ignoring those is really dumb.
I am very sorry for your loss. It’s terrible that your sister couldn’t realize what was really going on and get out in time. I hope at the very least her story will help others find the strength to fight domestic violence.
thank you. me too.
While I agree with many that you were too “absolute” in this article and of course there are exceptions, you are also right on in many things. The first 25 years of my marriage were rough – ups & downs. We spent much time in counseling where we developed skills that we lacked and worked through deep issues & wounds for each of us. Yes, it was sometimes very ugly and our children were affected. But those children also have modeled that marriage is work and loving is often difficult, but the whole family is so blessed with a wonderful marriage! Celebrating 30 years in style this year!
Thanks for this post. It hits me on several areas of my own life and it is a good reminder to me to keep trying even when I run into my own times of loneliness and difficulty.
Penelope: I find your writing incredibly interesting: often powerful and never boring. But I respectfully disagree with your conclusions.
From Wikipedia: “Attempts to assess the impact of divorce on children are inherently compromised by the same methodological problem as with adults: establishing the relevant baseline for comparisons. By definition, virtually all children of divorce are from unhappy families; meanwhile, children whose parents never divorced are from some mix of happy families and unhappy ones (parents who stayed married despite an unhappy marital relationship).
Comparisons of life outcomes or well-being along the simple divorced/not divorced axis naturally always show poorer outcomes for the group that is composed entirely of children of unhappy families, demonstrating simply that being the child of happy parents is better than being the child of unhappy ones.
The actual question of interest is whether being a child of unhappy parents who divorce is better or worse than being a child of unhappy parents who do not divorce. Establishing data for that comparison would require being able to identify with reasonable certainty the subset of nondivorced parents who are nonetheless deeply unhappy with each other, something no researcher has found a way to do at a meaningful scale.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implications_of_divorce#Medical_and_psychological_implications
Matt, well done. I expected so many other people to point that out. I guess there’s not a lot of interest in hearing methodology, just stats.
Another thing to consider is that these studies usually don’t control for the age of the child at the time of the divorce. A five year old is never going to say they’re glad their parents divorced. They have no comprehension of their parents as separate entities and they are too young to know what’s happening in a relationship.
On the other hand, a preteen or teen might better understand the parents’ reasoning and be more open to the divorce. But a preschooler will almost definitely blame themselves and therefore display more regret later on.
Many of these oft-cited studies overlooked the age factor. Stats are a poor way to navigate life, as you rely too much on their certainty and can get really bad information from studies with poor methodology.
So…..after working at my marriage for 16 years, being mostly unhappy but trying hard to love him with two kids. Drinking too much now, still in therapy twice a month for 11 years, taking anti-depressant and now he is taking a career path that is so opposite of what I am…yet I smile and support him. Divorse is off the table having an open marriage is not acceptable to me. What about divorse after the kids are out of school and are “adults?”
My parents divorced when I was 25. So I’m a pretty good test case.
I don’t think the harm is nearly as bad. But it rips the family apart. There is no focal point for the extended family.
Something to think about: The New York Times calls one’s twenties “emerging adulthood” precisely because kids in their 20s are not fully adult and do not feel fully spearated from their parents.
Also, kids who have a home to return to after college have a much easier time getting a job they are happy with because they can easily quit a job they don’t like — they can live with their parents. Kids who have parents who are tearing the family apart with a divorce are not likely to want to live in the middle of that and will instead choose to stay in a job they hate in order to pay rent.
Penelope
First of all it’s not free to live at your parents place — either they or you are paying for it. If you’re an adult you should be paying for yourself. Since you have to pay rent anyways, why would you choose to live in a place where you can’t walk around naked in the middle of the night if you feel like it, and as a bonus is almost guaranteed to drive your spouse crazy?
It’s also a weird standpoint given that you argue people should always be hunting for a new job even when they’re employed. How can it be a better position for the job market to be unemployed and live in your parents basement instead of already having a job and an apartment?
I posted a link here from my Facebook and commented, “One of my favorite bloggers writes one of her most controversial posts to date. Whether you agree or disagree with her opinions, the woman certainly makes you think. What I value most in my favorite writers is not their ability to align with my beliefs but their ability to force me toward introspection in an effort to not only know but understand my personal values and beliefs.”
I’ve been married 18 years and we have really gone through some big stuff together. There have been points when I’m sure my husband was thinking of divorcing me, and I know I’ve thought about it in reverse.
I am really glad that we stayed together through those times.
That said, we have always had a core of respect of each other that has never come apart. We have never tried to really tear each other down; no hitting, no denigrating. We have said harsh things but not cruel things.
I don’t think the statistics are all that helpful because they are looking at marriages that _did not work_. It is comparing apples to oranges. How do you know the kids in the divorced families would not have had similar results because of who their parents are?
But I do agree there’s a difference between a really big problem – where I do believe in divorce – and malaise or boredom. I liked this article about what do in a half-happy marriage: http://www.more.ca/relationships/married-life/wish-your-marriage-was-better/a/38764
I wholeheartedly disagree. As someone who lived (and benefited) from my parents divorce, I can tell you that, when done correctly, divorce can do more good than harm. It was worse seeing my parents come home miserable and not speak two words to each other than it was seeing them apart. Yeah, it was tough when they started dating other people. But it also taught me that if you are unhappy in your situation, there is no reason you have to stay.
I was lucky. My parents split before they hated each other, and they put their kids first– no custody battles, no trash talk. One week with mom, one week with dad. It was great. And now, they’re happy. And actually FRIENDS.
I thank them all the time for that divorce. I much rather have happy parents than miserable married parents.
Oh Penelope, you have opened quite a bee’s nest. I am the child of parents that divorced in 1967 when I was 5 years old and I was an oddball because no one elses parents were doing divorce back then. My Mom is now married to her 6th husband (and she’s a marriage and family counselor! LOL!) and my father is married to his 3rd wife of 30 years. There was sexual abuse on me over and over again from 5 different men before the age of 13 and one of them was my step father that happened repeatedly for a couple years and then my older step brother from my mom’s 3rd marriage. I have quite a story to tell and I don’t agree with your stance on staying in a marriage. Even after all I’ve been through, I would not condone my mother staying in any of the marriages she had until the one she is married to now. I have to type of my story in word then transfer it to here because I had it partly typed up in here and then it somehow lost it. Frustrating! I’ll be back!
Fun! Until now, my favourite comments are
1) “college” professor who wants to use this post as support material for a class;
2)Dr Laura’s fan ( (“bimbos” comment);
3) meistergedanken dude (totally awesome; would like to meet him in person).
Honorable mention to Kristin. Great comments, but too angry for me.
This post is better than seeing Sean Young crashing a party. Keep the good work!
I appreciate the honorable mention, I WAS angry that night. Nothing to do with the post, just life in general. I feel that people are unable to take much personal responsibility and I have a job where I have to console them and be an advocate. I rarely get to truly lay it out like it is. So this is my therapy. I don’t mind pissing folks off with the truth. We, as women, are so fotrunate to live in a time where we can control much of our destiny, to give up that control is anathema to me. This includes the control over our own happiness and our children’s.
ETA: Kristen is the one getting honorable mention; not Kristin. Apologies for that one, Kristen girl.
Penelope, I think, no, I know that you need to seek help. You are very damaged and it might be too late but please try and find a good mental health care provider.
Your entire blog shows how delusional and misguided you really are. What a shame for your kids.
Go get help, fast!
Thank you Chantal, your words were definitely more kind than mine. I chose to focus on the “Mental Illness” portion as I found it particularly offensive and surprising to see such ignorance from Penelope. Surely therapy is not new to you Penelope, you have incredible insight and your introspection is contagious, do not let these gifts destroy you.
You’re delusional.
My child will grow up knowing that I left her father because he was abusive to me and that’s not okay. I never want her to think it’s ok for someone to treat her the way her father treated me.
And I hope to god she never comes in contact with your kids, as they will grow up thinking it’s ok to abuse physically harm someone who “talks too much”.
I hope you and your kids get the help you need.
This may possibly be one of the most judgmental and insulting things I have read in a very long time. I hope for the sake of anyone in an unhappy relationship with children to read this with a grain of salt and not use this as advice. Words cannot describe how awful it was to read this!
Dooce is a douche, Heather is a total C U Next Tuesday. Selfish, confused, wandering, empty, isolated and self-absorbed.
She was a $15K/yr clipart producer before she backed into success as a “HEAR ME ROAAARRRR!!!” blogger just as the web was taking off.
Her husband sounds like a potted plant, but he’s ALWAYS sounded like a potted plant. And previously she raved about her little potted plant.
I guess she just feels she is superior and doesn’t need him slowing her down. Must be a real black hole in her soul.
Ha! I have no idea who these people are but your comment cracked me up. I’m intrigued. I especially like that her husband is a potted plant.
I’m really nice to them, my potted plants- I talk to them, name them, water them on a strict schedule, take them on patio “walks” to get sunlight. I am sad to see this cruelty against them by this Heather person.
First, I have to say that I am so sorry. I am so sorry about that fact that you married a man that was selfish enough to decide that his own happiness was more important than staying in a un-fulfilling marriage his whole life.
Second, you are so ignorant its disgusting. As a child who grew up in a abusive household, I spend a majority of my childhood praying that my parents would separate and we could all just live in peace. Nothing would have made me happier than to have TWO HAPPY homes then to go to one miserable one where I lived with hearing my mother getting beaten by my father, and getting beaten myself. (Your totally right, my mom totally did deserve that beating when she decided to hid my dads gun for our protection. What a 50/50 situation, a meeting of equals). Jail and anger management classes didnt help either. I would give anything for my mother to see how much of a beautiful strong person she is, rather than live in fear of others judgement if she was ever to leave my father.
What about sexual abuse? Is a mother stupid if she leave to protect her child? She must be mentally ill right?
And what about happiness? Oh that whimsical thing that Disney movies taught me. I guess if the guy decides to pull a complete personality 180 after marriage, I can just suck the misery up until I die or decided to kill myself from the depression.
Thanks for empowering point of view!
It’s interesting – most of the people who disagree resort to insults and name-calling. Those who do aren’t helping to prove their point.
I agree with 95% of this. Our society treats the breaking up of a family with little to no thought or care. Most divorced people I know (at least the ones that are causing it) use these excuses. My in-laws are divorced, my brother-in-law is in middle of one – and is quickly realizing it’s not quite as freeing as he thought it would be. My husband and I know from personal experience that divorce isn’t what people think it is, and that there are long-term effects that everyone must deal with.
“Love and Respect” by Emerson is the best book on marriage that I’ve ever read. If you’re really interested in saving your marriage, you can.
There are always exceptions to the rule, and this is where I part ways with Penelope. If you’re being abused, or your kids are.. get out! As a parent you have to teach your kids that they don’t have to be doormats and take bad treatment. Also, there are some people that WILL NOT cooperate or work on a marriage. HOWEVER, this is NOT true for most people and it’s used too often as an excuse to do something destructive.
As someone who got a divorce because I was immature and selfish, I have to grudgingly agree with this article. Coincidentally, I am also the child of a mother who got a divorce because she was also immature and selfish. The older I get, the more I ask myself “what if I had tried harder?”, “what if I had opened up about how I felt and what was wrong?”. My two kids are ok, but I don’t delude myself into thinking that they weren’t negatively affected then and now (the ex and I played very nicely and still do to this day). I have three brothers, none of them are married, none of them are able to carry on a long-term, functional relationship. I have to think that my parents divorce has played some role in that. My dad loved my mother with all his heart, and he begged her not to leave him, he said he’d do anything to make their 17 year marriage work, but she had decided the grass was greener, and there was no turning back. So when my dad refused to move out she initiated a shoving match with him and then called the police to have him removed from our house. I don’t think any of us kids will ever recover from coming home to the police escorting my dad out of the house and our mom crying “he hit me!”. We know the truth about what happened now, but that night left a mark that won’t ever be erased. I’m in a long term relationship now with someone to whom my kids have become very attached. There have been times when I’ve wanted to throw in the towel and end it, but the main reason I haven’t is because I know how heartbroken my kids would be. So I stay, and I talk things out, and I appreciate the person I’ve chosen to share my and my kids lives with, flaws and all.
Brilliant, bold and dare I day, brazen post, Penelope. Every married couple with kids has had the idea at some point. As you point out, it’s those of us who see the big picture and realize that life is about choices and the consequences of those choices, that make the difference. Your headline sums it up perfectly. Divorce is all about putting “me” ahead of “we” and that’s not a grown-up thing to do. Anything worth having/keeping, is going to take some hard work. Keep fighting the good fight. We’re all in this together.
My parents started off young and dumb; my dad was an alcoholic, abused drugs, and was occasionally physically abusive. My mom was naive and passive and thought she could do no better. They had four kids before they should have had one, and almost split up on more than one occasion. But then they grew up, got their shit together, my dad became sober, my family became very religious and things were good. For awhile. After 10 years, while my mom was pregnant with her fifth child, my dad started drinking and using drugs behind everyone’s back and when he was caught, refused to give it up. He ended up having an affair with a minor, and again, was physically abusive towards my mother. She tried to make things work at first but as soon as it got ugly she left him. Yes, the divorce was really fucking hard for all of us kids. And since then (it has been 12 years), my dad’s drinking has only progressed, and my relationship with him now is minimal.
But I do NOT blame my mother. She did not cause ANY of this, she doesn’t deserve to be with someone who has no respect for her, nor did we deserve to be raised by someone so selfish, that, given the first chance, he opts out of parenting. I cannot imagine having spent the second half of my childhood raised by a drunk father, and a scared mother. There ARE in fact worse descions than divorce.
“For example, a parent with BPD is often unable to separate their own wellbeing from their child’s. The person with BPD is afraid of not being loved and makes all their decisions based on that fear.” This is exactly what you are doing. You are afraid of being unloved and alone, so you are trying as hard as you can, to rationalize leaving your kids in a dangerous, unhealthy home, just because the abuse is worth it to you.
“So let’s look at high-conflict homes: It takes two people to fight. And there’s great research to show that if you picked an asshole the first time, you’ll pick the same type of asshole the second time.” How about instead of being selfish and lazy and NEEDING to be a relationship, you don’t immediately jump into another harmful relationship? How about you stay single long enough for you to get your shit together? See a therapist? Figure out why you are attracted to violent people? Fix that? And then maybe try to find someone who is GOOD for you AND your kids?
You seem to base everything on statistics and facts. You should check the statistics of people who grow up in violent homes that become violent, or abused themselves as adults. You will see that they are HIGH. So you are essentially, intentionally teaching your children that abuse is ok. And since you have sons, they will most likely be the abusers, not the victims.
All these detrimental ideas you have are certainly far more immature and selfish than divorce.
Perfect!
One thing you didn’t mention: the kids in her marriage are not getting abused for now. And it might be that he’d never hit them.
But what happens when this “50/50” abuse thing starts happening, and the kids are old enough to get between them? What happens when people are being pushed and things are being throw and the boys are no longer little kids, but young men trying to defend their mom? Nightmare scenario, that’s what.
And that, ladies and gents, is why you do not stay in abusive relationships. Even ones where you’re the only person who is getting abused. Because it might start out that way, but it rarely ends there.
I couldn’t have said this better.
Thank you Chantal, your words were definitely more kind than mine. I chose to focus on the “Mental Illness” portion as I found it particularly offensive and surprising to see such ignorance from Penelope. Surely therapy is not new to you Penelope, you have incredible insight and your introspection is contagious, do not let these gifts destroy you.
What??
You want people to stay in abusive relationships? You want children to grow up seeing that violence? Seeing one parent put down, screamed at and abused? The effects of divorce are NOTHING compared to the effects of growing up in a home where is abuse is present.
And on top of that, you have the gall to blame the victim of the abuse???
Plus, teaching your children that abuse is okay, that you should stay and stick it out…is disgusting. Teaching a child to be a victim is abhorrent.
And what if the spousal abuser is hitting the kids too? You stick it out then too? Because obviously putting a child through a divorce is much more traumatic than domestic abuse.
Your own terrors of being alone, are making you give terrible and quite frankly dangerous advice to people who are in abusive situations.
“In fact, the US Centers for Disease Control reports that most domestic violence today is a 50/50 thing. Both parties are responsible.”
The article you linked to didn’t say this. It says, “The survey’s central finding is — yep — that men and women inflict and suffer equal rates of IPV, with 6.5% of men and 6.3% of women experiencing partner aggression in the past year.”
Just because the numbers are almost equal doesn’t mean that all women experiencing abuse are also abusing their partners.
Sorry for another comment- but as I read through your blog I see that you are from an abusive childhood are in an abusive marriage and you have children who are now, helpless themselves much like you were as a child, living in an abusive home where they are more than likely to repeat this process you have showed them. From a psychology stand point this post is now not so surprising- sad and depressing even more having read further in your blog. I wish your children and you strength and I hope they receive extreme amounts of therapy so their lives will not be ruined by abuse that they have been shown to be worthy of. As much as I find this and other articles abhorrent, I wish you the best in your struggles and abusive marriage.
I know more commenters that I can count have already said this, but one more from an adult child of divorce: THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. If your post prevents even one couple from splitting for the “sake of the children”, you will have done this world a great service.
My parents divorced when I was a baby, and I was always told that I was “lucky” that I was young enough that I didn’t remember the strife that supposedly happened during the actual divorce process (Lucky that I never even experienced a having a family? Right.). I was supposed to be fine, so growing up I always thought there was something wrong with ME when I had a hard time adjusting and re-adjusting to the two homes I was shuffled between. It wasn’t until I was in college when a therapist (of course) suggested I read “An Unexpected Legacy of Divorce” that I finally realized that perhaps there was something incredibly wrong with the way I was brought up. There are of course worse things that could befall a child, and today I have better things to do than hate my parents, but coming from a broken family is a huge handicap in life, especially when compared to similarly situated people whose parents stayed together. I am constantly jealous of how these people seem so “together” and “emotionally stable” – things I am only now beginning to learn to be myself.
I really like what you said about finally getting a new chance as a grown-up, though. It’s a good thing to remember now that I’m finally grown-up myself :)
Sweetheart, you need to hold the applause and finish reading her post. Right up there, see?- she condones staying with an abusive partner, gets some very basic stats wrong about domestic abuse and who is responsible for it, and then advocates the sanctity of marriage in a “high-conflict” relationship.
Unless you are advocating spousal abuse, you don’t believe in this post. Please read the whole thing and qualify your comment that you only agree with 3/4 of it, or come out and say that you, too, believe that there is no scenario in which divorce is the answer, even if that means mom getting beat on the regular.
No, I don’t believe “that there is no scenario in which divorce is the answer, even if that means mom getting beat on the regular.” And I don’t think Penelope does either. I think she’s doing two things:
1) Being hyperbolic about the NEVER part because our culture has swung SO far in the direction of suggesting to “unhappy” parents that divorce is just a-ok for kids when the reality is the opposite. Yes, of course there are always exceptions (and is there really a need to point out the oh-so-obvious?), but for the sake of her entire point, I think a lot of people do need to be reminded that their case is most likely not the exception, as much as they’d wish it to be otherwise.
2) In regards to the “getting beat up”, it looks like she’s drawing a lot from her own experience here. I think she knows a lot better than the commenters what’s going on in her own life, and if she says she is part of the reason it’s happening- why not take her at her word? And while you’re at it, look up BPD. I understand what she means when she talks about partially bringing the Farmer’s violence upon herself because I have unfortunately recognized some borderline behaviors in myself (broken home, remember?). Of course the Farmer should try to control himself, but he’s human, and living with a borderline can be torture. Kudos to him for staying with her and kudos to her for recognizing her problem and trying to fix it- as well as forgiving the Farmer.
Also, on another note, to Penelope: I feel like this all somehow connects back to your post on being happy vs. interesting. I know my childhood was much more “interesting” than friends of mine who were from intact homes. Both my mom and dad moved a lot, had new boyfriends, girlfriends- there’s even been a stepfamily and 2nd divorce thrown in the mix. Back when I was still brainwashed into thinking my parents’ divorce was NBD, I used to think this was a positive thing (Your parents are still married and you’ve lived in the same house since you were a baby? How so very BORING and BOURGEOIS!). Though now as an adult with my own relationship and BPD-like issues, I can see that I was sadly mistaken. I just hope I can give up on the “interesting” enough one day to have a happy family of my own.
L,
have you considered that it might be your parents who were “broken”, or who for whatever reason couldn’t give you the security you needed? I think that what comes out of the divergent views in these comments is that outcomes vary substantially (ha, besides those concerning how much trauma results from abuse).
It’s the “broken home” model that is so tired. My parents divorced too, my mom twice. i had a very happy childhood. and have a very fulfilled adulthood. they made my stability a goal, got along well with each other, and let extended families on both sides be as involved as they chose to be, which was a lot. i felt very very secure…i also know many people who grew up with depression, anxiety, etc in spite of having a two parent “unbroken” family. generalizing just doesn’t get us any closer to the truth when it comes to whether divorce is “right” or “wrong”.
I have considered that, but what I’m saying is that the fact that they divorced made everything much worse. I wish my mom had read something like this article before deciding to go through with it and stuck it out. Although they each have their issues, neither of my parents is a psychopath and I believe they could have made it work if they both had been determined to do so. Also to those of you saying you wished your parents had divorced so they’d have stopped fighting- what exactly makes you think they wouldn’t have continued fighting after the divorce?
And yes, there are successful, happy people from broken homes (I hope to be one of them someday!) and depressed, anxious people from perfect intact families. The exceptions do not disprove the general trend, which, as Penelope pointed out, is that people who’s parents divorced are, as a group, worse off than people’s who’s parents stayed together on a variety of measures. So why again would you want to do that to your child is there was any way at all that you could prevent it? In my limited experience within my social circle, I see can definitely see differences between my friends who come from intact families and those who do not. The former just seem to have this inner confidence and security with themselves that seems to elude those of us in the latter group, even if we look “fine” from the outside.
Also, some people are more resilient than others. There’s a great article in the Atlantic about this that’s definitely worth a read:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/12/the-science-of-success/7761/
First of all, yay for not agreeing with everything written here, because while I believe that the hyperbole is to drive traffic, that doesn’t mean it won’t influence someone reading it and looking for answers. I mean, this is an advice column and Penelope’s “you are 50% responsible for being abused as according to some statistics I misinterpreted” is a pretty scare thing to tell people.
Kudos for coming to terms with your own behavior and figuring out where it comes from- I’m in the same boat, as I had a non-divorced parental unit that instilled a good deal of violent behavior in the three kids they stayed together for. It seems like the issue is not divorce or not divorce, but more about the behavior of each adult in the relationship. Like maybe if your parents had tried harder, you’d be healthier and maybe if mine had given up, I’d be healthier. It really is so subjective.
I honestly have no idea what actually goes on in Penelope’s house- clearly, this is a blog, so we get to hear what she tells us. And she keeps a bunch of details hidden because, duh, that’s such a more interesting read than hearing exactly who said what and who did what before who hit who. So like, I get that maybe she’s in control of her own situation, but there are a lot of people who are letting their boundaries get crossed by a spouse who shouldn’t read this and think they should stick with the marriage for the kids. Sometimes getting out is the right thing, too, and this article shamefully ignores that fact. What is good for blog traffic is not good for life.
The picture in this post is scary.
It’s like a threat to the poor Farmer guy.
She is not leaving that property, not at all.
And he has to suck it.
Scary indeed.