Zero tolerance for domestic violence is wrong
It’s been four days since I documented my own domestic violence, in almost real-time, between me and the Farmer. The most common response I’ve heard is some variation of: “Zero tolerance for domestic abuse!”
And you know what? I have zero tolerance for things I am not prone to tolerate as well. That’s easy, isn’t it?
It’s much harder to see the issue from the person’s perspective who has the issue.
I’ve spent days reading the 500 comments on my blog and the comments about my situation on other blogs, and I’m absolutely shocked by the collective hatred and disdain for women who are in violent relationships.
Here’s what someone said on my blog: “Victims of domestic abuse suck at pressing charges.”
Yes. It’s true. Women don’t like to press charges. Because they love the guy. You, maybe, are unable to fall in love with a guy who is violent. Good for you. But do you have to hate women who aren’t like you?
For some reason, people feel it is honorable to rip a woman to shreds if she is living with domestic violence. Here’s an example from the comments section on James Altucher’s blog:
“[Penelope Trunk is] out of her mind to think that her children are not being abused. She, in fact, is as guilty of that abuse as the farmer that beats her.”
The high-and-mightiness that emanates from the public discussion of domestic violence is breathtaking. Everyone is an expert. Everyone knows what’s right.
Here’s an example from the comments section on Jezebel, a supposedly feminist community that is full of anger towards women who live in violent households.
“No one gets another chance to hit me. I don’t care that I have the training to fight back.
“One incident, and YOU LEAVE. Violent people don’t get better without a lot of work, and it’s not *your* problem. Once someone raises a hand to you, you owe that person *nothing.* It’s likely that the violent behavior will escalate. Sometimes it is deliberate. Either way, YOU LEAVE.”
This person sees everything very clearly. If there’s abuse, you leave. Even if it’s small. Because all small abuse gets huge.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that if the guy hits you twice, the kids are better off living in a single-parent home and hearing their dad called an abuser. What people do say is that the odds are it won’t stop. The odds are it will get worse. The odds are, the kids will be worse off, in the end, having lived with the dad.
But the truth is that we do not believe that men who leave two, visible marks on their wife should lose their kids.
You know how I know we don’t believe this? Because if Child Protective Services sees two bruises on a kid at two different times, the kid is not removed from the home. Think about it: Is that kid better off with parents who might be able to stop, or in the Foster Care System for the rest of their life?
So we are making bets, right? Is it better to leave, because it is likely to get worse? Or is it better to stay because the benefits from things improving, although unlikely, are huge?
I’m in the startup community. It’s the world of high risk. You bet big on yourself, you kill your family’s credit, you put your house on the line, and maybe, just maybe, your company will make it.
So why wouldn’t I bet big on myself now? I am not the whole problem in my family, but I am half. And over the last year I have described multiple situations where I was half the problem.
I can improve my own half and see what happens. Have you been to couple’s therapy? There’s a saying that a marriage is a gear system. If one gear changes, all the gears change.
Blog commenters will argue against this idea by telling me not to change because It’s not my fault.
But really, how do they know? We know that I grew up in a home where there was lots of violence. So it’s likely that I will be in that kind of house when I’m an adult. And surely it’s possible that I am contributing to the mix since I am statistically likely to create a violent household. Here’s another thing: You don’t know what I did leading up to the bruise in the photo.
I’ll tell you what my mom used to do leading up to my dad hitting her:
One night they were wallpapering. They had been wallpapering the living room after work for a week. My mom got mad at my dad and threw red paint all over the wallpaper. Ruined all their work. He didn’t respond. He was stunned. Then she knocked over the table with the wallpaper and the glue. It ruined the newly varnished floors. He held her arms so she couldn’t do anything else. He held tighter and tighter. She kicked him to get loose. She left no mark. He hit her in the face.
If she blogged about it, and showed the hand print on her face, she might get 500 commenters telling her it’s not her fault.
Should she leave with me and my brother because our dad is violent and we should not live with him? Or should she work on her own behavior to see if she can single-handedly stop the violence?
I think the most grown-up, good parenting thing for her to do would be to understand her own behavior and stop it so that me and my brother could grow up in a home with both our parents. She didn’t do that, of course. She had little insight into her own behavior and she and my dad ended up taking most of their anger out on me.
My mom had good choices she could have made because, in fact, part of the domestic violence was her fault.
“It’s not your fault” completely limits a woman’s choices, because you are saying that she is powerless to control the situation. And if you tell every woman “it’s not your fault” then they can’t improve. How do women get better at not creating a violent household? Probably by changing their behavior. This doesn’t mean “always tiptoe around your spouse and become a mouse”. But it can mean a wide range of positive changes.
We are all growing personally. It’s not your fault is almost always a path to no growth. It’s what Oprah founded her show on, right? Personal responsibility. Why don’t we go there, first, before we go to “it’s not your fault”. The truth is that if we take responsibility for the problems in our lives, we can solve the problem. If we blame other people, we are always running. People who blame other people can’t get along with siblings, can’t get along at work, lose friends quickly. People who facilitate that behavior say, “It’s not your fault.”
Most of the success of my blog comes from my reliance on the idea of personal responsibility. There are no bad bosses–it’s only you. If you can’t get a job it’s not because of the job market, it’s because you are unemployable. And you can fix that. Your heavy workload is not because someone gave it to you — you gave it to yourself. People like what I say because I show them how they can fix anything when they take responsibility for fixing it. That’s what I truly believe.
And that’s why I’m staying with the Farmer.
I’m sure some of the people who posted had been in violent relationships or grew up in a violent household.
As per your kids, yes it’s good to have a father: the kids had one before then farmer. My mom who thought it was horrible growing up without a dad in the 50s was humiliating. she thought it was better we live with an ego maniac who controlled the house, hit my mom on occasion, threatened her physically. As a teen I begged her to leave. It took until one night my dad hit her three times over slicing a sandwich diagonal nit cross wise when he was drunk. my mom picked up a loaded 357 magnum rifle and said, If younhit me again, I will pull e trigger.” I remembered it all happened so fast, and I laid in my bed, shaking, hands over my ears thinking, “omg, my one half sane parent is going to jail!”
I could count the times my dad hit my mom on 1 hand,,,but they have left along memory that pretty much made me tell all men I dated in my 20/, “hit me once, and I’m gone.” So at 27 when a boyfriend who was manic spit on me, and I shoved him,,,,he thought chasing me with a 2×4 made sense. I told him….you will go to jail if you swing that board”. Luckily, thank god..he didn’t. That was the last day I saw him. I walked out and never saw him again.
Point being…sometimes 1 more time is too much. no unhealthy day to day relationship is good for anyone, period. I also feel, if a guy hits you…and you do nothing, you are teaching him he can do it again.
Lastly, I should say I love your blog. i think slot of people sew genuinely concerned who commented. and I thinku need to take responsibility that u opened the blog that day with a nakid aka very vulnerable way displaying your bruise. You opened a door and of course people commented.
So yea. Things have gotten bad. I still don’t tolerate violence. If u need check yourself..then do..but the farmer has two kegs. He could have walked out of the room unless u were were hanging off his body like a monkey. he could have went for a drive. he could have taken a walk. he could have gotten away from you. he chose not to.
I’m not hanging him, but I’m not buying either that your situation is safe emotionally or otherwise.
Best of luck to you, the farmer, and the kids.
Just reread my reply. Typo city. God bless iPads with auto correct. Sorry folks who waded through the mess.
Oh sure, ruin my vision of the farmer walking around on two kegs ;)
I think this is a really good comment.
Very well said.
Victime blaming is wrong. You (Penelope) were/are a victim. Violence toward those who depend on you should NEVER be tolerated, but either should victum blaming. It’s a very complicated dynamic.
Many victims don’t leave, because they are afraid for their lives or those of their children or pets. Some don’t leave, because they don’t realize what is really happening. My boyfriend was a victim of DV. He did not realize what had happened to him until two years after he had left his abusive wife.
I have been lucky, in the past, to see the pattern before it manifested and end the relationship before it got to that point. Who knows where I’d be if I hadn’t!
Penelope does not want to be a victim. She believes in personal responsibility.
And, she went to a hotel with her kids.
I think you’re right, tolerance is excellent. In your dad’s case, your mother went first, smashing up his stuff and then kicking him before he did any violence (he held her still but didn’t attack her). She attacked first. She could have stopped him from hitting her by not kicking him.
From statistics I’ve seen, most domestic physical violence is bidirectional. There is a substantial minority who don’t have it bidirectionally, about 2/10, and in those cases I think it is good to leave. If you’re not hitting them and they’re hitting you, their violence is probably innate.
There’s also the situation where the man says he is leaving you because he is extremely angry and wants to cool down and the woman follows him and either continues to berate him or attacks him, as you did.
This is an entirely predictable move. Men leave when they want to avoid a fight, women see that as an insult rather than a concession and attack. Knowing male psychology, you could avoid this.
From what I know of you, you have crap people skills, suck at understanding men, a slightly abusive husband, and suck at being needy.
I agree with you that self reliance is good, and given your rather stupid behaviour with your husband there are several easy ways to stop it. To any who say “violence is never justified” true, but there are circumstances that commonly lead to violence that you can avoid.
Get an emotional codeword with him that either of you can say when it gets bad. When you’re emotional you’re stupid and do stupid things. I personally use the codeword twilight. I find it penetrates the fog and stops either of us saying stupid stuff. He views you as crazy, and should be willing to go along.
Guys also like rules and fair contracts, so you can both set down rules about what you should do when you say it and when you should say it.
Learn male psychology. Men are from mars, women are from venus the book helps. The concept of the man cave from the book has helped a lot of women to understand the male tendency to abandon you or ignore you.
Women like to talk to recharge their mental batteries, men like to retreat and stop thinking about their problems to recharge. Both hate it when the other tries to apply their problem solving method.
If you understand that men need time alone your loneliness may be less needy. You won’t talk to him continually leading to him being stressed.
If you understand he’s in his cave you can also make some moves to be there with him- compliment his manliness, flirt with him, listen to him explain manly things like pigs (The Farmer says, "What do you think of the pigs?"
I tell him that does not count as conversation.
If he’s not talking about things you’re interested in, he doesn’t get to talk. Bad strategy, taking from him and leaving nothing on the table).
If you’re talking about things he cares about like how manly he is for knowing so much about pigs he won’t find your presence stressful, and will likely be willing to talk about his emotional issues in return for you, even though talking about emotional issues only hurts most guys and never solves them.
Surely from your business times you must know that? When in a negotiation if you offer them emotional pleasure they are much more likely to give you a favourable deal.
Focus on winning arguments, not on getting emotional satisfaction. Do role reversal, try and work out what he’s thinking. Consider what scenarios are likely to play out well in his mind, consider what you’re offering in a negotiation- see the one where he was on drugs say, you offered him insults to his manhood and age if he stayed with you, an unattractive offer.
If you had instead said “You are manly and virile, and I want to enjoy your manliness and virility” that would have been a better offer. You would be inside his frame of mind and if you then said something like “and you know how much I worry, I just want to understand this so I can get back to making you happy” you would have probably not had to wait two hours for him to say anything.
Again to those who say “Get out of there girl, you know you can do better” yes, most men don’t hit a woman even with continual emotional and physical abuse so if she found a new partner he’d probably not hit her, but she’s not going to stop dating him so giving her that advice is not productive.
There are some insights in your comment, but I thank my lucky stars that the men (and women) I know don’t all align with your rigid categories and behaviors.
I would find it far too exhausting to have to plan my every move and “bargain” with a spouse like it was a giant chess game or a manipulative business sale. Ugh!
Communication and understanding, sure.
As someone who has been in an abusive relationship as well as witnessed close friends and family members also in such relationships, leaving is a personal choice, one that is based squarely on the amount of self-respect that a woman (or man, if he is the one being abused) has for herself.
So, in this respect, it matters not what we, the readers, think about Penelope’s situation. She will leave or stay based on her own internal sense of what is right. We cannot do much to influence it, one way or the other.
As long as both Penelope and the farmer are willing to take responsibility for their own actions and willing to talk to each other about what is really going on in their relationship, there is hope they can create something healthy for all of them. People can, and do, change, but often only when forced to do so. And Penelope’s choice to air this story publicly is one way to apply some of the kind of pressure that forces change. I think that we should wait and see what develops here before laying blame.
That’s a lot of crap you are writing, Penelope. I think your readers cannot help you. You need serious professional help, Since this was the last time I read your blog, I wish you all the best for the future.
Penelope, you seem like a smart, together woman. I trust you to make the right decision for your life. Outsiders have no right to judge!
I find this entire discussion frightening and distressing. Penelope, please just get some distance — emotionally, at least. Please get some objective guidance before one of you gets seriously hurt or put in jail. Consider the damage your parents relationship did to you.
BTW — multiple personality disorder has been thoroughly debunked.
whoa WHOA WHOA!!! Huh?? Multiple Pers Disorder debunked?? Where do you live?? Iran?? Ever heard of Herschel Walker?? Roseanne Barr??
Get with the program…your dangerous….to everyone and small cats.
I think you’d probably better get with the program, the DSM no longer lists MPD. They’ve replaced it with DID and any psychologist/psychiatrist with any cred at all realizes that it’s exceedingly rare. The Sybil case, the one that started all of that, was a complete fabrication that was the result of poor hypnotic technique, liberal application of sodium pentathol (AKA Truth Serum), a dangerously codependent young woman and an overly ambitious psychiatrist. The techniques used to “diagnose” Sybil were used to diagnose others and led to the satanic ritual abuse scare in the 80s and landed innocent people in jail. It would behoove you to read up on things like this before chastising people about it.
Your making no sense. If tomorrow milk was named paint would it cease to be milk or a marketing ploy or someones bored decision to change the name or to make the name more “user friendly??
DID IS MPD….HELLO???!!!!!??
WTF ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT???
Writers like Penelope are rare….this doesn’t mean that other writers can’t attain her level.
Throw out the weed your smoking.
I have read all your comments throughout this thread. You are unhinged…get help fast.
While I don’t think it’s relevant to this convo, Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) is definitely still in the DSM-V with a diagnostic criteria revision proposed so I don’t think that’s quite “debunked.” Sybil’s been debunked now that she is conveniently dead, but there are fake pregnancies and yet the human race continues to procreate.
MRI has shown some differences in brain function in people diagnosed with DID – see both this abstract and the discussion section where they cite earlier research. Obviously these are small studies but it is a long way from debunked:
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/Mobile/article.aspx?Volume=163&page=630&journalID=13
I think A Fractured Mind by Robert Oxnam is a great
memoir: He even does some great career changes.
Sorry to derail a bit. I don’t think Penelope is multiple but I do think, Penelope, the research into how PTSD changes your brain actually is relevant: it means you can’t always think your way out, at least not without serious help.
Thinking that you can change the Farmer’s behavior by changing your own is delusional. You have no control over his behavior. Whether or not he hits you is his choice, not yours. You can be the best wife/doormat in the universe, and he might still hit you. You are right; it was your fault he hit you. if you were not present, egging him on, he would not have been able to hit you. Being in a violent relationship obviously fulfills some need of yours, which is why you are still there.
But it is not fair to your kids and you are not fulfilling their needs by staying in this abusive relationship. Why was it okay to leave their father and not to leave the Farmer? This is inconsistent, to say the least. They deserve better than this. Think of your kids instead of yourself for once. You can find someone to beat you later, when they are out of the house and won’t have to witness it.
Exactly my thoughts.
Ditto. The kids are growing fast and will be out of the house soon.
Then, Penelope will have plenty of time to focus on/fight with/angst about/bleed over some guy beating the crap out of her while she blames herself for it.
Right now, she needs to simply focus on supporting and raising her kids, financially and emotionally, and leave the narcissistic pursuit of men, excitement, romance, sex, yada, yada, alone.
Kids first, thrills later.
For some women who suck at relationships, it’s better for them to be single mothers, IMO.
I TRUST THIS WAS EFFECTIVE IN ACCOMPLISHING WHATEVER IT WAS YOU HOPED IT WOULD DO FOR YOUR COLUMN.
I HOPE, JUST AS WELL, THAT IT DOESN’T BACKFIRE ON YOU. YOUR KIDS DON’T DESERVE THAT.
Wow, just wow…
You wrote earlier that the farmer said he’d quit hitting you when you changed your behavior. If that’s true, he’s not hitting you in the heat of the moment. He’s hitting you because he wants to get his way and violence is his way to get it.
In your case, zero tolerance for domestic abuse is a straw man argument.
Get out while you’re still alive.
Penelope, I believe you are conflating blame/fault with responsibility. I don’t believe they are the same.
Only a counselor who knows your situation and has the 2 of you right there face to face, can help you to “assign” blame/fault without rancor; and then address the issue of responsibility. Your readers cannot help you there.
If someone wanted to know what I think, I’d say it is your responsibility to not engage when things are heating up. If you are baited, do not engage. If you are cornered, do not engage. If you are overly angry or close to tears, do not engage. If you feel the adrenaline, the increased heart rate, the flushing of the face, do not engage.
Two examples: I am in martial arts, and we hold a women’s self defense class every few months. Our master tells the women NOT to kick in the groin because this move has the power to (further) enrage a male attacker. We learn plenty of other strategies for self-defense . . . that are smarter.
Another example where there is baiting, and the opponents refrain from fully engaging is the current political debates. I take note of how often a candidate will NOT directly answer an attack/assertion, will not engage (fully) in order to keep the debate from escalating to ugliness. Have you noticed these strategies? Both with the press corps and with another candidate . . . ?
Last example: When I was in a Masters pgm, we were required to work in teams. An argument arose about power/leadership/who-has-the-right-to-edit-my-work . . . I went whining to an instructor about being insulted and feeling powerless, having had my written work edited away to nothing . . . My instructor said–yes, you guessed it–DO NOT ENGAGE. Stop answering back. Only repeat your point, quietly and confidently, with no increase in tone, no escalation, no inflammatory language. After 3 repetitions, do not even repeat your point . . . do not engage at all.
I think, underneath, not-engaging is an effort to stop trying to win. If you win, the other loses. If you care about the other at all, work towards win-win, towards compromise. Ask the question: Is either of us willing to compromise here? If no compromise is forthcoming, this says a lot about the state of the relationship–that there has to be a winner and a loser.
Last, I don’t see what you see–that most of your responses expressed hatred and disdain towards women who stay. I saw that most of your responders expressed support for YOU, and asked you to love yourself and protect yourself and your children.
I do not understand your turn-about. (I went back and re-read everything 2x.)I think both you and the Farmer are playing a dangerous game. And if I am confused, I cannot imagine how much more confused the 2 children must be.
You are a loathsome attention whore.
Penelope, your self hatred is exhausting. I have to unsubscribe. I will miss most of your blog but I just cannot hang on to watch you justify an abusive relationship. This comes from a thoroughly fucked up individual who has not compromised the one thing in the world that is worth two shits– great love. Your mate is your equal, your supporter, the place where you go to get comfort and reassurance. You do not have this with someone who cannot tolerate you to the point of violence. Because you are resigned to justifying his nastiness as part of your own fault is BS and also very tiring. Find a real relationship with a man who loves every part of you, even the shitty stuff and doesn’t harm you or make you feel bad for being a complex human being. The fact that you put up with this crap is intolerable. Bye. Miss you.
Make that two. P, I hope I can come back one day to enjoy your posts about leading an interesting life. What you have to offer now is too painful to watch, especially when there are kids involved.
This is one dysfunctional and crazy group.
Smokey, stop smoking and read some sciene, not junk.
Good luck to you all. I’m out of here. Actually, I respectfully suggest the rest of your readers to the same and stop getting sucked into a crazy vortex.
Penelope, do what you want. We know you will anyway. Stay, leave, whatever. I hope the farmer changes the locks, but he can’t be very sensible if he allows you to remain in his life. But your freedom ends where your actions harm your sons. And if this is a bid for publicity, screw you.
Your point of view was thought provoking to say the least. It was not a point of view I had considered, being one of the knee-jerk get the heck out of there advocates (though I didn’t go so far as to try and tell you what to do in a comment).
I think you did the right thing to step back and give some deep thought to what you wanted to do. I can’t say that I necessarily agree with your decision but it is, after all, your decision and you have to make it. No one else should tell you how to live your life, and unsolicited advice is worse than useless in my opinion.
I think you have a good head on your shoulders, and all of the advice on your website (solicited by me, btw!) has been well thought out and very helpful. So, I think you have the intelligence to figure out what is best for you. After all, you are the one living in the middle of it. You know the ins and outs of your situation better than anyone reading this blog possibly could.
Rather than try to give advice, I will wish you the best of luck with your decision. I sincerely hope things work out well for you and that things get better.
I support you too. I wish your parents had. My daughter has Aspergers and I worry about her ability to deal with conflict in relationships as she gets older. Right now she has very little assertiveness. How does one instill it? She is 14.
Penelope: It’s really hard for me to wrap my head around what you write about domestic abuse because I live a different paradigm. I need to remember that when I read your blog sometimes. Ultimately, it’s your life, and your decisions. I would just hate to see your kids get comfortable with this type of behaviour. Because it doesn’t have to be their paradigm. xs
I see your point, but your kids have a dad already who isn’t the farmer. You don’t seem to have been happy with the Farmer… Ever. Even in the beginning. He just seems to make you feel worse about yourself. You said he thought that going two months without hurting you is “progress”. That’s not normal, nor acceptable. Even if you’re violent too, it just seems you’d be happier in the long run if you left the farm.
I thought it was wrong and tasteless to blog the post with the photo of the bruise precisely for the reasons explained in this post.
I don’t actually understand the need to seek assurance from a large virtual community of strangers – what does all these people’s opinions matter? They weren’t there and can’t evaluate the situation correctly and fairly no matter what they say.
This post puts the event back into perspective and also hopefully give people a chance to reflect on their knee-jerk reactions.
By the way, I still think it is wrong – think about from the farmer’s perspective: whatever lead to the violent situation, you have literally *thousands* (or more) supporter’s on your side against him. They all point fingers at him and label him bad guy, someone who beats his wife. His photos are on this blog.
This could be a case where he was provoked over and over till he snapped (like in the example with the wallpaper). Thousands of visitors and potential media attention are attracted to this very controversial issue (relevant in all cultures) and it could be a way to gain traffic and attention, sacrificing his reputation in the process. I can’t think of any worse way to punish one’s spouse – it is like encouraging any stranger on the Internet to engage in cyber bullying against him, and it very much exceeds domestic violence in damage.
Good for you!
Have you considered creating a space in your home where the Farmer can go when you are getting on his nerves? A man cave that you are forbidden to enter?
I’m suggesting this because if your Asberger’s results in your not being able to read the Farmer’s body language, then you are just not going to be able to recognize his emotional boundaries. If you don’t know when to stop or when to turn down the intensity of your demands, it seems like he may resort to violence because it’s the only thing that stops you when you are pounding on his last nerve. So having a physical space that he can retreat to and shut the door is a signal that you may be able to recognize that he’s had all he can stand and he can’t stand any more. You may even work out an agreement for an automatic timeout — that means, you stop getting in his face about whatever — when the Farmer goes to his man cave and shuts the door.
I also hope you both nourish your marriage by praising each other and expressing your gratitude for one another, especially for specific traits, habits and qualities. Kindness is a very powerful tool for making a marriage feel rewarding and successful.
I second Cynthia’s comment, it is wise and shows respect for both parties.
The fact is that everybody have emotional boundaries, and everybody need their personal space to retreat & recover as needed. I think even I could get violent if someone was constantly in my face – I would definitely snap. I think anyone can snap – myself, my dogs, my husband (he isn’t violent, btw) if invaded relentlessly with no escape route. People are not usually resorting to violence because we have been trained to restrain ourselves, but we all have it in us and would resort to violence if we are driven into a corner and relentlessly confronted with someone else’s need, demands and aggressions.
Smart comment by Cynthia. Most productive I’ve seen in all responses. Nice work.
I think so too. Reading it, I could feel an almost palpable trapped feeling.
I am very disappointed in this article Penelope, not because you decided to stay with The Farmer but because you are telling the world of abuse victims what their abusers are telling them is correct – basically “they are right to be hitting you, it is all your fault.” Not only that but you are saying. “I am really successful and really smart so you can be confident in taking my word for it.”
From your story about your parents, your mom doesn’t sound like she was abused, it sounds like your parents fought (probably a lot) and they both chose to use physical violence during these fights, but that was a mutual decision, actually if anything your dad was just defending himself, the fact that they also hit you (who could have done nothing to deserve it, and in no way could have deserved an attack) meant that you were abused.
Another thought is, you pride yourself on telling us the difficult details in your life, but all you say about the fight is that “[you] deserve it” well Penelope MAN UP and tell us what you did or what you think you did to deserve it. Did you walk in the door and say “Good morning dear would you like some breakfast” and get to eat a fist? Or did you try to use a nail gun to nail his feet to the floor and get hit because he didn’t think that would be enjoyable? Obviously both of those are absurd but we have NOTHING to reference. That is if you want us to truly understand what you are going through. People will always judge a situation based on the information given, and the information you gave us is that he is beating you, and the "it is my fault" seems only like a smokescreen of an abuse victim.
Then again, maybe you don't really want us to hear what you did because it is as trivial as saying "good morning" *POW*
I am very disappointed in all but the title of this article.
You say that no one knows what leads up to the fight. But I do not understand the wallpaper example provided. It sounds like your mothers actions “justify” getting hit by your father. I agree that no one understands the circumstances leading up to a fight. However, the action of a man hitting a woman can NEVER be justified. Regardless of your actions the farmer has no excuse to hit you.
I just got out of an abusive relationship. I was like you for a long time though. Justified/ made excuses for his actions, thought it was partially my fault.”it takes two”, ect ect
I had so many red flags along the way and should have left so many times, but tried to make it work for 4 years. The red flags got bigger and bigger and bigger however. Until one day, he did something so unthinkable that I snapped out of it and RAN for the hills. I look back and feel lucky to have gotten out now and not when it could have been to late. Please run.
I’m not particularly surprised that you’re staying with him, although I do hope you’ll continue to stay at the hotel to give each other some physical distance.
I AM surprised that you focused on the negative comments. That’s really messed up because there were so, so many supportive ones. That said, your brain isn’t computing correctly right now – it can’t be – so I suppose focusing on the negative comments isn’t all that strange.
The reason I think your readers are pissed off is because in your first post you didn’t give the whole story. You gave part of the story which didn’t include your part in the situation. It is disingenuous and even more so because you still don’t tell the whole story; You tell a story about your mom.
See, if you’re going to bet big you better start with being honest. If not with your readers than with yourself. And lying by omission is not being honest. It is keeping secrets plain and simple – the very thing you say you don’t want to do.
You have a very lethal piece of baggage and that is that kids are better off no matter the environment if their parents stay together. I’ve told you my story about this and it is NOT true. It just isn’t, Penelope. You have to get off the statistics to support your baggage train and look at real life – your real life. The looks on your kids faces when you rush them out to the car and to a hotel. Pay attention. If you’re telling them some story that isn’t true about the why of it, I can tell you that you’re not fooling them one bit. They are bright kids and can easily make logical connections.
However it turns out, I really hope that you come out the other side with insight about yourself. Not about connecting your personal problems with that of a company – which is really wrong – but that you deserve a good life with people who love you.
Lovely comment, thanks!
So. You feel OK about violence in your home, and in the world. It doesn’t matter that this violence is domestic. You condone violence as an appropriate way to live in relationship with other people. It says a lot about your philosophy in life and in businesses. You might be smart, and good at start ups, and willing to take risks. Good for you. But, I question your ethics and integrity. And for that reason, I think your “advice” is questionable and am removing myself from your blog. The world has too many people like you in it and I cannot support it.
Nobody’s perfect.
Everybody requires grace from others.
While a violent person may be a greater source of risk of harm toward you and your boys than, say, a poor person from whom you risk the harm of homelessness, or a fat person from whom you risk the harm of their early death, you can extend grace for these and many other imperfections.
However, if you do so, do so unconditionally.
(While you should demand an end to the behavior, it should be a separate matter.)
Since I don’t know you personally, I realize any opinion I have on your situation could be totally off. I just worry that since he broke up with you 50 times while you were dating, that maybe pushing or violence is a way of trying to make YOU leave since the idea of no tolerance for violence really is a prevalent one.
Does he say he doesn’t want you to leave?
Even if he wants you to leave, he’ll still miss you.
And yeah, we don’t know how you got the bruise. How did it happen?
Penelope says, “The most common response I’ve heard is some variation of: “Zero tolerance for domestic abuse!””
Strange, the most common response I heard in your hundreds of comments was “get out please, for your children”.
We all hear what we want to hear…
Love it. I’ve been reading your blog for a couple years and have never commented, just enjoyed it; but wanted to give you props on this post. I live in the start up world as well. And thus, my tolerance for risk is way higher than most. Something else I’ve learned in the start up world as I’ve made millions of mistakes through the years is…”look in the mirror”. If someone is criticizing you, there’s probably a reason for it. I don’t think that “criticizing” and “hitting someone” is the same EXACT thing, but I do think they are both ways of someone letting you know that you need to get your shit together; and while some people may say that “hitting someone” is taking it too far…that’s just OUR culture. Other cultures in the world think domestic abuse is fine and even normal…who is the US to say it’s not?
Another point – only “we” really know our “other half”. Just because someone has hit you once or twice, 99% of people will tell you – “he’ll do it again”. Well, yes. he probably will. BUT if you are okay with it, then it is what it is.
I truly believe “you make your bed, you lie in it”. Clearly, you have chosen to ‘take’ this form of punishment and criticism. If it’s okay with you and you don’t think the farmer will ever hurt your children or kill you…well, then you’ve made your bed. No one else should condemn you for it.
That said…as usual, you’ve hit (no pun intended) on a pretty hot topic so I’m sure you expected the response you received.
Bottom line: no one has to be okay with you except you. If you’re okay, screw your readers. While I DO believe I would handle the situation differently AND if I was a “good friend of yours”, sure, I would give you my opinion – clearly, you’re okay. That’s all that matters.
Good luck and cheers to being brave!
I don’t agree with what you’re doing, but going against the grain seems to work for you.
What also reassures me about you, Penelope, is that you’re in a constant state of evidence gathering. If, a year from now, working on *your* end isn’t helping, then you’ll re-assess and may choose to get out of there.
Another helping of unsolicited advice: The simple phrase, “Do you need some space?” to help people who have trouble asking for it. My parter and I worked for several months to come up with that no-brainer. She was sick of me shutting down like a rock or becoming a jerk and we finally learned to use that one. Picture the part of the soccer game when everyone sits on the grass and has an orange slice to cool down before the second half. Take a break!
I believe it’s not *your* job to assess when he needs space, but it’s a nice favor you can do for someone you love when you’re trying to make things work.
No, Penelope. Rationalization and justification don’t make it ok. And that wasn’t necessarily anger and disdain you were reading. As a matter of fact, I didn’t get any of that tone of voice in the same quotes when I read them. I hear a strong message though. You have issues. You can deal with them. The farmer has issues. You cannot deal with his. It’s pretty rare for people in this type of relationship to become healthy in sync. You both need help, but you almost surely need to move on in order to really get it. And I think you really know that, or you wouldn’t be posting your diary and photos for the world to see.
Go to a group for battered women and ask those experts for their response to your big long explanation about why it’s ok sometimes or why it is your fault, after all. Maybe they can help you see the situation for what it really is. Obviously your readers can’t.
I read your post, and I get to the end and why you’re staying with the farmer. I guess I wonder why the farmer stays with you. I don’t mean that as anything but something I genuinely wonder. And I thought, does that make sense to ask that in connection with Penelope’s story of her father and mother, and I thought, yeah, why did her father stay with her mother.
I don’t know the answers. I’m not trying to make a point. I just wonder. I wish life was a zero tolerance easy decision making kind of world, but it just isn’t. So in the meantime, know that what I wrote before is true. I would miss you. And I wonder why men stay with women who do things that result in hitting the woman.
Life is confusing.
You are so much more screwed up than I ever imagined. I hope you are not having more kids, ever. You may not consider yourself in an abusive relationship, but you must admit you are in a horrible relationship. Your nut did not fall far from your mother’s tree.
I was in a toxic relationship. But I didnt realize it at the time: all I knew is that I’d begun to hate myself and the person I’d become. I cried all the time & felt miserable and lost.
It was only after I finally ended the situation — and suffered through several months of emotional withdrawal — that I got some distance/clarity and regained my balence and peace of mind. Looking back, I cant believe how unhealthy and co-dependent that relationship had been … and how good it is to feel like myself again.
P, a question for you: Do you who you are now, the person you’ve become during the course of your relationship with The Farmer ?
oops, make that: “… do you -like- the person you’ve become …”
oops, make that: “Do you -like- the person you’ve become …”
You are such a contradiction to your own self. I hate saying this because you, in writing, seem very likable because of your vulnerability.
But you preach taking ownership and accountability when you are often sarcastic and publicly judge whiny emailers who ask you for advice when their approach is not to your liking.
Why do you bitch about the farmer beating you and then blast your commenters for being judgmental when you are the one who left out the important information of your role in the incident? When I first read your domestic violence posting, I knew that you had a huge part in it, judging by the way you interact and I think the biggest issue is that you use your childhood as a crutch to be in these abusive relationships that you probably created.
I am not defending the Farmer. I could not care less about him. I just think that you should take a moment to work on your childhood issues. Sorry that happened to you but aren’t you in your 40s? There comes a time in someone’s life when you have to decide to deal with the hand that you were dealt and make a better life for yourself.
You have that control. Stop your erratic behavior. If the Farmer doesn’t want to talk when you want him to, why don’t you leave him alone? Why do you guys have to talk when YOU feel like it?
And, why are you always in couple’s therapy? Your first marriage failed and you quickly jumped into another one that had red flags throughout your so-called courtship.
It’s all a mess but the beauty is, you CAN fix this. But that requires changing who you are. Can you do that? Is that realistic? Stop being scared of being alone. Stop acting like you created this super successful business and you are not with someone for the stability.
You need to take accountability for your own actions and think about who you are hurting in the process. Your children.
I’m not reading the other comments, because I know from experience they will make me mad.
As a child, I experienced something very similar to what you’re describing.
My dad is emotionally abusive. My stepmom was often physically violent towards him. One time, she went to the hospital, because she attacked him with a clock, he pushed her away, and she fell and hit the dresser.
Whose fault is that? I say, in situations like these, that’s entirely the wrong question.
Winning, being in the right. It’s irrelevant. The only important thing is fixing the problem.
But, as a kid who grew up in this environment, I can say with all certainty that I’d rather have lived with my other parent than stay in the house. When I was 17, I finally got the courage to run away.
Keep putting your kids first, no matter what. They’re innocents.
Penelope:
What some of the advice-givers said, about zero tolerance and blaming victims was totally wrong. They shouldn’t have said it.
BUT.
That does not mean the rest of what they said is untrue, and that those of us who said the same things without the insults are wrong. After all, it is nonsensical to say that because someone says one thing wrong, the opposite of everything else they say is true.
It is never okay for him to hit you. Never, never, never. The things you have described you doing to him–well, people have done worse to me, far worse, and the last time I hit anyone for it I was about 12, and that was too old.
He does not get to hit you. It is not okay. It was not okay. That does not mean any feelings you have for him make you a bad person. It just means that it is wrong for him to hit you.
And your comment that by coming from a violent household, you are contributing to the violence–well, you mean that you aren’t leaving because you think hitting can be okay. Because as you described in your story involving your mother, sometimes you sympathize with the hitter. Guess what. She didn’t deserve to be hit, either. If things were getting out of hand, your father should have left. Not restrained her, unless it was from attacking him. Not hit her, unless it was in self-defense and was necessary for self-defense.
That is what makes you different from people who did not grow up in violent households.
I also really love this comment. Especially: “Guess what. She didn’t deserve to be hit, either. If things were getting out of hand, your father should have left. Not restrained her, unless it was from attacking him. Not hit her, unless it was in self-defense and was necessary for self-defense”
Penelope, I’m on your side and I wish the best for you and your children.
I think you’re absolutely insane to continue to stay with this guy, setting up piss poor examples of a relationship for you kids. And now your kids will grow up to be in dysfunctional relationships just as you were born into one and are now in one. Congrats. You’ve ruined a future generation.
Your kids are going to hate you. I didn’t even read this post fully and scrolled down to the “I’m staying with the farmer.” I still think this is all a LIE and you’re creating stories and drama to stay relevant in the blogosphere… similar to how celebrities get quickie marriages so they can have weddings and be RELEVANT once again- think Kim Kardashian. Yea. Anyways, you say you could live anywhere and are financially secure. I doubt it. If that were true, you should get the fuck out. You have BPD. You go from ‘Oh hey world, I’m DYING!!!! I left my hubby and am in a hotel with my kids and here’s a PICTURE of my bruise.” …. To… “You guys suck! How dare you tell me to LEAVE this situation?!! I am so totally staying with the farmer.”
My mother stayed with my dad who was VIOLENT often, hitting her in front of us… it was bad. I left home at 18 to attend an Ivy League school, and hated her ever since. The difference between my mom and you? My mom really had no other options, financially. I still wished she left. You claim to have options so you’re really just screwing over your kids. YOU SUCK. WHAT A HORRIBLE FUCKING MOTHER. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT KIND OF DAMAGE YOU’RE DOING TO YOUR KIDS. MAN THE FUCK UP PENELOPLE.
T-10 minutes and you’ll probably delete that comment and if you do, I don’t give a shit. But your life sounds awful. I don’t know who all these fanboys are on your site, but you’re worse than Tim Ferriss. Get a real job. Also, you are the worst person to give career advice. What kind of career have you had? It’s pretty lame. I know about 500 people with better blogs than yours. And better, more real careers. They’d never put their personal shit on here, especially when they make horrible mistakes, like letting their CHILDREN witness a MAN hitting THEIR MOTHER. Are you INSANE? I don’t give a shit about you, but I care about kids because they have no choice as minors. You FUCKING SUCK.
Penelope, you are spot on here. Best of luck to you.
Positive self-change and improvement in your own behavior is, quite honestly, the best route you can take.
You’ll either grow yourself out of that relationship in your own time, or you’ll end up growing back together. Either way, you and the kiddos will end up benefitting.
Trust yourself.
Good for you that you can write about things that others are not comfortable with. I think you’re taking a wrong turn but I don’t know you, don’t like to judge you and I don’t want to join the side I agree with and yell at you to leave.
And that’s why I’m going to stop reading your blog.
You do have agency, Penelope. You can create a more positive environment for yourself and your children, but it doesn’t necessarily mean having to stick it out with the Farmer.
I wasn’t able to read your post as the establishment of yourself and your freedom of choice. I read it as your search for reasons why it’s good to stay, so you can. It’s true that you can change yourself. That’s always good, if it improves how you interact with others. But for a long time it’s sounded like you and the Farmer haven’t been able to meet vital components of each other’s needs, enough so that you’re yo-yoing wildly between when it works and when it doesn’t work.
I can’t tell you what to do. As someone who’s experienced DV, I think you’re right about taking charge of yourself (because really, it’s the only thing you CAN do – you can’t change him), but I can’t ignore the instinct says you staying with the Farmer isn’t the healthy thing for you – I don’t think things will change (if they do) fast enough to make the bad parts fade away enough to let the good ones shine. Ultimately, what worked for me (and many other women who break free) was to leave and close that door once and for all. At the same time, I got into therapy because I knew the relationship was a reflection of something going on with me, too, and if I wanted any chance of a good, healthy relationship after, I had to fix some things about me.
Hope this helps. Please take care of yourself and your kids. I read these posts and worry a lot about you.
Dear Penelope, you have been in my thoughts and prayers. I applaud you for living your life out loud so we can all learn. I too grew up in a violent, abusive household and then attracted more of the same in my 20’s. I agree that it’s a two person thing and that if one person leaves, the other one will probably continue the pattern unless there is counseling, coaching or something. I think you should consider getting some professional counseling and consider how this is affecting your children. Whatever you chose, I am sending you good vibes and support,
Elaine
My gut says right on target. Sick to death of one-sided flamers.
This posting angers me at a viscerel level. So much that I know that I will be bypassing any future postings you do about the farmer’s physical and verbal abuse of you.
It’s not because you are staying with the farmer. As I have commented before, that is your choice.
It’s reading the spurious arguments and rationalizations which make me shake my head in absolute wonder. No we have not walked your path nor know the chain of events that led to him shoving you into a bedpost. Still, I rathe doubt I would find it justified.
As I have commented in the past, my ex-husband was an abuser, mostly verba. One physical incident happened when we first went out (which should have been my wake up call) and the other “significant incident” was the one that led to the end of my marriage.
I mention this simply as someone who’s been there. When you’ve been there and you read some of the stuff you post, it feels like banging your head against the bedpost again and again while asking yourself: “Does this woman get it? Or does it play in her mind like a bizarre episode of “Real Housewives,” or “The Honeymooners (“Bang, zoom Alice, straight to the moon…for real.
I think about how in my own situation, I was lucky…not so for some of the women I have known or known of through friends.
Remembering their stories, then reading your “zero tolerance is wrong” and spurious arguments and rationalizations is what pisses me off.
I think “Is it because Penelope hasn’t ended up in the e.r. with a broken jaw and ribcage or swollen face…because the abuse only happens sometimes rather than facing near daily beatings an electric iron cord (a friend of my mother’s married to a doctor)…or worse like some of the women I’ve known?”
Most of those women didn’t have a cozy hotel room that could run to or a national blog with a ga-zillion readers they could tell their stories to. My mother’s friend didn’t live in a time when as a culture we took women’s stories–much less their battered bodies seriously–enough that “zero tolerance” would ever cross our collective minds much less be someone we espoused.
In the end, I have to respect that it’s your journey. I won’t be “glued to the computer screen” with bated breath waiting how it turns out.
I’ve been in an abusive relationship. A few actually. So yes, I get what it’s like to not leave the first, second, third or (fill in the blank with a number) time.
I wasn’t married to a farmer. But I left the corporate world and did become a Navy wife. My marriage never stood a chance with sister’s suicide and two deployments by the Officer who was an asshole to be married to but now we are friends for the sake of our son. I’ll let him decide when he’s older on what kind of man his dad is.
So i’m now divorced almost 4 years now. Single mom. Back in the startup world. I didn’t leave him. He left me. Which actually turned out to be the best thing that could happen. I couldn’t see or say that at the time, but it’s true.
And my son is much better off for it.
I’m not lecturing. I’m just throwing in a comment to let you know that there are women out there who have been through fucked up shit like you have and come out of abusive relationships intact. It took a while.
Look, I don’t care for your advice for women, but I have a better understanding of where it comes from and I’m really sorry that you are going through this. I really do hope you get yourself to a place where you and your children can be happy. Whether who leave or not. I hope it gets better for you and them.
Christine
Never commented before, but I’ve gotta say, this is one of your best posts. Really insightful and provocative and I hope it gets as much attention as the bruise post (and the miscarriage post).