Zero tolerance for domestic violence is wrong
It’s been four days since I documented my own domestic violence, in almost real-time, between me and the Farmer. The most common response I’ve heard is some variation of: “Zero tolerance for domestic abuse!”
And you know what? I have zero tolerance for things I am not prone to tolerate as well. That’s easy, isn’t it?
It’s much harder to see the issue from the person’s perspective who has the issue.
I’ve spent days reading the 500 comments on my blog and the comments about my situation on other blogs, and I’m absolutely shocked by the collective hatred and disdain for women who are in violent relationships.
Here’s what someone said on my blog: “Victims of domestic abuse suck at pressing charges.”
Yes. It’s true. Women don’t like to press charges. Because they love the guy. You, maybe, are unable to fall in love with a guy who is violent. Good for you. But do you have to hate women who aren’t like you?
For some reason, people feel it is honorable to rip a woman to shreds if she is living with domestic violence. Here’s an example from the comments section on James Altucher’s blog:
“[Penelope Trunk is] out of her mind to think that her children are not being abused. She, in fact, is as guilty of that abuse as the farmer that beats her.”
The high-and-mightiness that emanates from the public discussion of domestic violence is breathtaking. Everyone is an expert. Everyone knows what’s right.
Here’s an example from the comments section on Jezebel, a supposedly feminist community that is full of anger towards women who live in violent households.
“No one gets another chance to hit me. I don’t care that I have the training to fight back.
“One incident, and YOU LEAVE. Violent people don’t get better without a lot of work, and it’s not *your* problem. Once someone raises a hand to you, you owe that person *nothing.* It’s likely that the violent behavior will escalate. Sometimes it is deliberate. Either way, YOU LEAVE.”
This person sees everything very clearly. If there’s abuse, you leave. Even if it’s small. Because all small abuse gets huge.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that if the guy hits you twice, the kids are better off living in a single-parent home and hearing their dad called an abuser. What people do say is that the odds are it won’t stop. The odds are it will get worse. The odds are, the kids will be worse off, in the end, having lived with the dad.
But the truth is that we do not believe that men who leave two, visible marks on their wife should lose their kids.
You know how I know we don’t believe this? Because if Child Protective Services sees two bruises on a kid at two different times, the kid is not removed from the home. Think about it: Is that kid better off with parents who might be able to stop, or in the Foster Care System for the rest of their life?
So we are making bets, right? Is it better to leave, because it is likely to get worse? Or is it better to stay because the benefits from things improving, although unlikely, are huge?
I’m in the startup community. It’s the world of high risk. You bet big on yourself, you kill your family’s credit, you put your house on the line, and maybe, just maybe, your company will make it.
So why wouldn’t I bet big on myself now? I am not the whole problem in my family, but I am half. And over the last year I have described multiple situations where I was half the problem.
I can improve my own half and see what happens. Have you been to couple’s therapy? There’s a saying that a marriage is a gear system. If one gear changes, all the gears change.
Blog commenters will argue against this idea by telling me not to change because It’s not my fault.
But really, how do they know? We know that I grew up in a home where there was lots of violence. So it’s likely that I will be in that kind of house when I’m an adult. And surely it’s possible that I am contributing to the mix since I am statistically likely to create a violent household. Here’s another thing: You don’t know what I did leading up to the bruise in the photo.
I’ll tell you what my mom used to do leading up to my dad hitting her:
One night they were wallpapering. They had been wallpapering the living room after work for a week. My mom got mad at my dad and threw red paint all over the wallpaper. Ruined all their work. He didn’t respond. He was stunned. Then she knocked over the table with the wallpaper and the glue. It ruined the newly varnished floors. He held her arms so she couldn’t do anything else. He held tighter and tighter. She kicked him to get loose. She left no mark. He hit her in the face.
If she blogged about it, and showed the hand print on her face, she might get 500 commenters telling her it’s not her fault.
Should she leave with me and my brother because our dad is violent and we should not live with him? Or should she work on her own behavior to see if she can single-handedly stop the violence?
I think the most grown-up, good parenting thing for her to do would be to understand her own behavior and stop it so that me and my brother could grow up in a home with both our parents. She didn’t do that, of course. She had little insight into her own behavior and she and my dad ended up taking most of their anger out on me.
My mom had good choices she could have made because, in fact, part of the domestic violence was her fault.
“It’s not your fault” completely limits a woman’s choices, because you are saying that she is powerless to control the situation. And if you tell every woman “it’s not your fault” then they can’t improve. How do women get better at not creating a violent household? Probably by changing their behavior. This doesn’t mean “always tiptoe around your spouse and become a mouse”. But it can mean a wide range of positive changes.
We are all growing personally. It’s not your fault is almost always a path to no growth. It’s what Oprah founded her show on, right? Personal responsibility. Why don’t we go there, first, before we go to “it’s not your fault”. The truth is that if we take responsibility for the problems in our lives, we can solve the problem. If we blame other people, we are always running. People who blame other people can’t get along with siblings, can’t get along at work, lose friends quickly. People who facilitate that behavior say, “It’s not your fault.”
Most of the success of my blog comes from my reliance on the idea of personal responsibility. There are no bad bosses–it’s only you. If you can’t get a job it’s not because of the job market, it’s because you are unemployable. And you can fix that. Your heavy workload is not because someone gave it to you — you gave it to yourself. People like what I say because I show them how they can fix anything when they take responsibility for fixing it. That’s what I truly believe.
And that’s why I’m staying with the Farmer.
Hi Penelope,
I read all this and wonder what you want from your readers around this topic? What do we want from you around this topic? Do we feel like we are doing due dilligence by saying all this stuff that you know already? You aren’t going anywhere until you are motivated on an emotional, not intellectual level to leave. As you said, you are staying because you are a risk-taker, a fighter, and you are willing to bet everything you hold dear on an imaginary payoff rather than the concrete evidence that has has been building. You are afraid to leave, fail, or whatever simple as that. No shame in that. You probably already know you’re kids are going to be in therapy for the rest of their lives, regardless of whether or not the violence actively continues (….my wife and I have a consistently emotionally and physically safe home but I’ve nicely passed ADHD down to my daughters so they’ll probably be in therapy plenty– nobody get’s away baggage-free) Heck you may have even resigned yourself to them possibly going to jail for repeating behaviors. You are a master at research and stats, you know the probable outcomes of all this, but this is why all these responses are silly on some level– you can’t convince yourself with all the facts!
The heart feeds on connection in whatever form seems either normative or accessible to it and will undermind the intellect to get it. When we unconsciously percieve ourselves to be dying of thirst we will drink mud because it has water and water is survival. High risk, andrenaline rush, rewarded by survival but little actual sustainable pleasure– not that you are actually shooting for enjoyment. No amount of intellectual banter will stop an unprotected heart desperate with to be loved by a particular person.
I honestly don’t think there is a proper or improper response and nothing anyone can say to keep you from returning to your life more determined to defy (deny?) gravity. Ironically, I think fan indignation will only increase the defense of the rationale and encouragement will only confirm the “rightness” of the risk-taking. Acceptance is a wonderful thing. Let’s all share this and stop this pointless lesson….
…and on that note, look, Penelope, I get it. This virtual stuff is surrogate love (like the mud/water analogy above) and it probably feels safer and better than nothing. But I gotta say, none of us have earned the trust and openness you give us. As a fan, I want to learn from you about professional stuff but when you give me that much of yourself without my asking for it or earning it makes me feel like I’m somehow party to you violating your own boundaries– and this topic ultimately is about boundaries. We’re all so used to be used but that doesn’t mean we have to like it and keep doing it, does it? Since you are all about being open here, I just figured you’d want to know what it’s like to engage you like this. (I do wish you asked, though….)
Penelope, I once heard that a noted Native American therapist related emotional experiences to visitations from spirits, almost like a stretched out ultra raw version of “It’s a Wonderful Life”. When we ignore one spirit, another stronger, more insistent one comes behind it. They come to alert us that we are not finding ways to properly meet most basic emotional needs for connection, autonomy, (self-)forgiveness and mutual respect. And point isn’t the spirit (although the spirit could be as ugly as a spirit of suicide), it’s the improperly met need. Ignore the need and spirit comes back stronger and we cannot talk our way out of it. What is this spirit trying to tell you?
“Wrong”? There is no right or wrong–only consequences. If only the development of your kids’ emotional intelligence were as important to you as development of their musical intelligence. Is this an aspie parenting thing?
Sort of amazing to think that, as fucked up as the kids are becoming from this, Penelope is considered the parent competent enough for sole custody.
I just thought of something else too…this really calls into question the interesting != happy principle that this blog has set up. Maybe it’s only true for people with emotional backgrounds like Penelope’s.
“People who blame other people can’t get along with siblings, can’t get along at work, lose friends quickly. People who facilitate that behavior say, “It’s not your fault.””
You know my brother?
Such valuable posts from this blogger. “Domestic violence” escalates due to the inherent secrecy encouraged by the standard, well-meaning advice-givers who say “just leave now.” One doesn’t need a therapy degree to advise this. Your talking about it honestly, and from your perspective, sheds light on the many, true nuances. Your honesty also directly and immediately helps protect you and your family from injury while you make your own choices. There is no deadline for “figuring out what you are going to do” (except one obvious deadline, of course). Please continue to share, despite the mostly one-sided chorus of posters. Please trust your instincts, for you are the only expert on you and your relationships.
I agree with with zero tolerance being wrong. I have no experience with domestic violence other than to say I have 2 boys and a husband and lived through years of sleep deprivation. There are moments in life when everyone has the potential for violence. naive people believe only “those people” hit/push a spouse. Ask any severely sleep deprived parent how close they came to violence. Terrifyingly close. Oprah is such a great teacher in this area, we are all capable of doing great acts of good or causing great harm. It’s all in your control. You clearly know what role you play and now you can do better. As long as your with a fundamentally decent person.
This is only a guess but perhaps your pursuit of being a perfect mother (homeschooling) and all your professional goals is all too much. Remember, pioneer woman doesn’t do it all alone. She is very wealthy and well support with family and friends.
people , WAKE UP !!!!
This woman is just promoting her new book ,which will be out in 2 months.
Take a look and think
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0789747987/?tag=ptrunk-20
Seems more like you are promoting it! Unless you are her?
people WAKE UP!
This woman is just promoting her new book.It will be out in 2 months!
Take a look and think
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0789747987/?tag=ptrunk-20
Well isn’t that interesting….can’t trust anyone.
I think you have a point.
However, if it was you provoking him out of his wits, maybe it wasn’t fair branding him publicly as abusive as you have done.
I don’t think zero tolerance should have anything to do with apportionment of blame.
The point being that no matter what the other person has done to provoke such anger, violence should never be the response. Unless you are in physical danger and it’s purely self-defence, there is no excuse or reason whatsoever to respond with violence.
You’re making a statement that when things get really bad, when you’re really angry, imposing your physical strength and hurting someone someone else is ok.
So I don’t know if there is a grey area there.
Not saying it means every woman has to leave the man (though you should), or that we shouldn’t support whatever choice the woman makes, but that there simply cannot be excuses or justifications.
I was shocked when you first posted the last entry & even more shocked now. Judging from that bruise you have, that didn’t look like just a slap in the face type bruise. It seems you’re trying to rationalize his behavior & that staying is the best bet now. You’ve found another man after your first divorce, you can do it again! However, I often find that people jump into relationships too quickly after ending ones which is often why they never work out. Because you may have issues that need to be worked out but no issue is enough to make abuse ok period. Take a break from men & just concentrate on you & your kids. Good luck.
Someone brought up a great point. Essentially if you’re saying this is a two way street, what did YOU do in this situation that you think may have provoked him to push you?
There are no recipes for relationships or child rearing. We build on the lessons of those who came before us but we still must make our own choices.
Penelope, the Farmer & family are living with many unusual changes in their lives. Getting married, raising children together, adapting his home to theirs, home schooling and daily living. Biggest of all, the Farmer is separating his farm from his parent’s and differentiating himself from them. I haven’t read any comments taking this into account. This level of stress can cause people to act out in ways they may never do again. A real marriage is about facing issues head on and working together and getting better at being a team. Learning to treat each other better and learning to treat ourselves better. It takes a lifetime.
No one knows what it is inside anyone’s marriage but their own. Do you think people capable of being objective and honest about the struggles within their own marriage? To quote Joseph Campbell “Marriage isn’t a lifelong love affair, it’s a lifelong ordeal.” He was married 49 years until his death.
Domestic abuse is much more than a shove. Penelope is blazing a trail in openness and public living. Clearly the Farmer is not holding her back and has chosen to participate. Also, his stress over dividing his farm is not something any of us can understand and neither can Penelope. This is probably a huge contributing factor in their volatility.
If Penelope and the Farmer do the work of being honest with themselves and both forget about being right, they have a good shot. They need couples thereby, individual therapy and family therapy. Medication can be dangerous. Be wary. The doctors are using education & experience but ultimately they proscribe their best guess as to what is needed. A bad reaction to a drug can cause problems for months or even years.
All the best to Penelope and family.
They’ve been in therapy all along. Hasn’t worked, apparently. But no matter, now P will simply “fix it”. Good plan.
The farmer never blogs about P, but he inserts one oblique comment in the last sentence of his current post. curiousfarmer.com
Therapy doesn’t resolve everything immediately. Life takes work and commitment. Walking away doesn’t solve the underlying problems for either party. Sticking in and trying can, over time, bring some resolution to some problems but it isn’t immediate.
I noticed that too.
Oh, God, Penelope. I feel so sad for you, because I really think this post is so completely missing the point.
Yes, there are always two sides to a story; yes, in relationships where one partner is violent to the other, the non-violent partner may have done things to “incite” the violence.
It doesn’t matter whose “fault” it is. Not even slightly. What matters is that this relationship has become terrible and destructive. If you do these bad things to the farmer, so bad that he HAS to hit you, then that is a signal to leave the relationship yourself, to recognise that the two of you might be good people individually, but you are no good to each other.
I really think some of this is the narrowness and rigidity of your Asperger’s view, Penelope. I’ve seen it in your homeschooling thing – you cling to the statistic of “all other things being equal, kids do better homeschooled”, without ever seeming to wonder what negative effect it might have on your kids that YOU are desperately miserable homeschooling them. Sure, their needs are important, but SO ARE YOURS. What I think this post boils down to is that deep down, you don’t believe your needs matter, and you’ve created elaborate rationalisations of why it’s OK for you to stay. (“CPS won’t remove a child with 2 bruises because they know it’s better if the parents can change”? Dear God, even you can’t really believe that.)
And since you love studies and statistics: even after treatment, does violence in a relationship stop?
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272735803001119
http://www.respect.uk.net/pages/can-abusers-change.html
Mostly, no. And it’s sure as hell not going to stop while he’s still blaming you for being “impossible to live with”.
I can’t read any more. Good luck.
“People like that I say because I show them how they can fix anything when they take responsibility for fixing it. That’s what I truly believe.
And that’s why I’m staying with the Farmer.”
Ah, that’s well and good. But does the farmer believe the same?
I get what you’re saying. I saw my dad hit my mom a few times during their crazy marriage. It wasn’t like he came home and punched her because dinner wasn’t ready. Nope, they were screaming things at eat other. She was working hard to push his buttons, practically daring him to do it. Getting in his face until he exploded.
Of course it wasn’t right for him to hit his wife. I saw it with my young eyes. But ALL of their fights traumatized me. I saw them break or throw objects that the other one loved. I saw a lot of tears. I cried many tears myself, begging them to stop. Sometimes I cried so much all night long that I didn’t have to go to school the next day.
Years later, when they were divorced and I was a teenager, my mom fought with me with the same techniques she used on my dad, pushing all of the same buttons. I admit, I wanted to hit her then, too. Somehow, I didn’t. All I know now is that I still love them both but I don’t have much respect of their parenting. All of my friends and husband say they are amazed at how good I turned out, considering.
I can’t help but think that you’re probably the biggest troll blog ever. I think you probably make half this stuff up just to incite responses because it helps keep your blog in peoples minds and mouths. Good work. I feel terrible for your children who are going to grow up misguided and will continue the abuse in their own lives as adults.
I would suggest you re-read the 100s of comments.
What I got out of them wasn’t “Poor Penelope is blameless” but rather “this situation is sick. You are the mother of two kids and you don’t have the luxury of hanging around trying to ‘fix it’ while the man you live with beats you up.”
Hi Penelope,
I owe you a great debt as a writer. I believe I have mentioned this before, but since stumbling upon your blog I have learned to challenge myself to be more open with my writing and to be more objective about its quality.
There is no doubt in my mind that you have the gift, it is rare, and I hope that you will continue to share it with the world for as long as you live.
So I feel that I owe you a debt. I also care. I would like to pay you back as you clearly want and need help and this is the mechanism you have chosen to receive it.
Also, I feel pretty strongly about women’s empowerment and women’s rights, and I think you are hurting us because you don’t fully understand the potential impact of what you are doing. Maybe you think you are preaching personal responsibility, but I think your emotional blind spots make it impossible for you to be objective here.
Why does what you say really matter? Because whether you like it or not, or feel like it or not, you have become a public figure with respect to “advice for women.” Both women and men listen to what you say, they consider it. And there is significant potential negative impact to some of the headlines you write:
* When you say “don’t report sexual harassment” and things of that nature, there is an impact that you may not have considered when you wrote the post. You meant, hey women, for the sake of your career, don’t report it. But did you think that maybe male (or female) harassers would take notes and be encouraged?
* When you say “Zero tolerance for domestic violence is wrong,” you mean that victims of violence should consider how they may be provoking it rather than helplessly throwing up their hands. But did you think to yourself that maybe popular culture would twist your words and that you would wind up doing victim-blaming?
In addition, when you exploit yourself – as in posting a revealing picture of your wounded body – you show disdain for yourself. As if you are only worth looking at if there is some exploitation involved – an injury is not enough.
As if a bruise in and of itself is boring. Or worse (the subtext reads) that the bruise is sexy somehow.
I think you posted that photo because your father took inappropriate photos of you as a young woman (you mentioned this in a previous blog post about deciding how transparent to be about your life). In some complicated psychological way you are punishing yourself by repeating the sin he committed against you, but this time with the illusion of control. Just like a prostitute who joins the profession after having been raped as a child.
But the outcome for other women, when you do something like that, is bad. You make violence seem somehow sexy and exciting and controlled. You hurt victims and potential victims too. So again, bad outcome.
Here is the advice part. Like I said, you are a gift to me personally. I follow your blog and see you have helped so many others. You are a worthy person and clearly a loving mother and wife who wants to do good. So here are some suggestions for you. I am going to post all this on my blog because I hope that other women will read it too:
1. Think 5 years ahead when making current decisions, especially when it comes to the safety of your boys.
Your boys are young right now. What will happen when they become pre-teens, or teens, and rebel, provoke, etc.? Will they be safe if your home is not safe for you?
Also, it would greatly benefit your kids to have a community of friends to turn to, physical or virtual or both. They need support too.
2. What feels familiar to you, and your husband as well, has a tendency to be inappropriate – and particularly when it comes to personal boundaries.
It seems like both of you came from families where the parents were way too involved with the kids, be it physically or emotionally. To you, drama and violence and craziness feel like “normal.” So does over-closeness.
On the other hand, normal boundaries, stability, and a certain amount of distance feel like rejection. As you say, “you want to be missed.”
Therefore, you absolutely MUST do the opposite of what feels comfortable now. Please get help to create some safe space in this relationship, for you, for your husband, for your kids. And some stability, routines. Think “No Drama Obama.” That should be you.
I don’t know what the status of the nanny is, but I would get someone to help you full-time to create a calming home environment for the children. You do not have to do everything yourself. And for God’s sake, please either live in a separate part of the farm or get your own house. Or even your own bedroom, your own office in the same part of the house where he is. Your “cave.”
Think about it: You are on a second marriage, you are bringing in two children who are not his, and he has lived by himself for many years without you. It is OK for you to live in a separate space to give both of you some peace.
Better a little distance than the constant fighting and making up.
The fact that you are counting the time between beatings suggests that it is something you wait for and that is an established part of your life, and that cannot continue.
3. Stop hating yourself.
You said that there was a lot of woman-hating in the reaction to your post. I read the reactions and didn’t get that. It seemed like people were on your side. They are on your side. I am on your side. You were HORRIBLY mistreated as a child and maybe that has left you with low self-esteem. Of course! But you have to know, as Joel Osteen says, that YOU ARE A CHILD OF THE MOST HIGH GOD. And that you are worthy of total and unconditional love. Believe me. If you have a predisposition to violence, if you are drawn to violent people, that is an illness that can be healed. But you, yourself, are not bad and never ever think so.
4. Use the blog and other writing projects as an outlet for your desire to provoke. And DO NOT include your husband or kids in the posts anymore.
At heart Penelope you are somewhat of an entertainer. You write the blog as “research” but also to spike our interest. In short you are a writer, you tell a great story. Please, restrict the drama to the blog. And keep your family out of it. Part of what has fueled your current problems is that you’re mixing your professional life with your personal one, and they’re two separate spheres.
On that subject, remember that your husband is not you. The things you love about him are the things that make him crazy about you. Stop doing those things.
If you are going to get in his face and jump up and down and break lamps over your head – what is really going to be the outcome of that? You do not have to perpetuate the violence that was perpetrated on you. Just let it go.
5. Don’t confuse your intellectual ability with emotional skill.
Penelope, you are brilliant. But emotionally you have special challenges. I don’t fully understand them because I don’t have Asperger’s. But I understand that there is a gap between your brain’s knowledge of a situation and your heart’s desire to do what it wants to do – whether logical or not. This is why you must get competent help in making important life decisions. And not from people who have contributed to your problems!
Overall Penelope – I wish you every good thing on your life’s journey. I pray for you and your family, and hope that you all land on your feet. But please also know that your actions affect other people – your sons, your husband, and yes, the people who read your blog and are influenced by it.
Do the right thing for yourself because you are a child of the most high God. Do the right thing for the other people in this world who feel the ripple effects of your decisions. And please get competent advice from a professional as you make these decisions – and take it seriously.
Let us know how you are doing.
Sincerely,
A tremendous fan of your work,
Dannielle Blumenthal
Clap……clap……clap…….
Clever Girl.
Penelope,
Your reasoning in this post is impeccable. You sometimes seem concerned about your need for structure, as Asperger’s folks often are. Nevertheless, when you write you seem to be capable of taking hugely broad perspectives on things. This is a great example. Commentators who react to other people’s situations on the basis of assumptions rarely have the information or insights necessary to do so. I trust you to make good decisions on the basis of your agonizing thought processes. At least you have thought processes!
Pen, I get it now. You enjoy the attention.
Your last photo could have been of the small bruise on your thigh, but was of your buttocks with no underwear in sight (What the hell was that?), and I see that your intent was to provoke your readership (Huge success there.) and to construct a springboard for your Next Big Idea: It’s OK, The Farmer Will Fix Me. Or, in the words of the bad boyfriend from Bridget Jones Diary, “If I can’t make it with you, I can’t make it with anybody.” Yeah, right. Let me know how that works out for you.
The farmer is not a wife beater, you’re not in danger of your life and neither is he, but your arguments end in slapping and pushing. Even if you are the most annoying people in the world, no one is supposed to be slapping and pushing in anger more than once. Not you, not the farmer. What are you telling your kids? How old do they have to be to have unsupervised access to the internet? Is that why you home school, to guard access, so they don’t see all the things you write about your volatile relationship? Listen to all the times you broke up, there was a pattern, wasn’t there? Love isn’t enough.
Sigh. Well, try hard Penelope. Trying hard not to be so ‘bad’ and not to incite Farmer’s anger will be like a boa constricter around your neck. Eventually, when you can’t breathe, you will realize you can NEVER change yourself enough to stop Farmer from using violence when HE makes the decision to do so. Staying is a choice though, just as leaving is a choice, and it is one you have to make for yourself. You try to teach people about start-ups, but you don’t want to be taught about domestic violence since you witnessed it as a kid and know it all apparently.
Many of the comments you received were from people, like me, that were once in violent relationships. Looking back, you realize you SHOULD have left after the first hit. But, most women “leave” seven to eight times, most woment try to change themselves, most women try counseling before reaching the realization it really isn’t there fault.
You write a great blog but right here right now, you are nothing special and you relationship with farmer is nothing special and there is nothing unique in the cycle of violence you are describing. YOU are a boring predictable STATISTIC. Just like I was. And there is nothing you did that makes you DESERVE to be hit.
I remember reading something like that in Penelope’s past blogs. I found it to be something useful to think about. She said that everyone thinks they’re a unique special case, or exception (and so X does not apply to them), only …. it’s not true and is unproductive thinking (that was her thesis as I understood it).
Good on you Penelope. Just because the signs of physical violence are more obvious doesn’t make it worse.
I fully understand what you’ve written here.
People who have never experienced any of this may have difficulty relating, and may think that people like your mother, me (and maybe you) are just mad/crazy people, which one should avoid. But are we?
People who ‘know’ me have no idea what happens behind closed doors. They will have experienced joy/kindness from their interaction with me. They would be very very surprised if someone would tell them I can get really really angry.
I seem to be the average, intelligent, kind ‘girl’ next door. And actually I am … or at least I feel I am – (and so does my partner in life – who always compliments me on my loving and caring nature).
It is just that sometimes I portray the same type of behaviour your mum used to. Maybe on a slightly less destructive level, but nevertheless sometimes I just lose it. Really lose it.
I wouldn’t really physically hurt anyone (severely) in that state, but would definitely display some very violent and destructive, hysteric behaviour, which in the past has led to my partner having to defend himself in some way physically (which may have in turn hurt/bruised me physically), or him just losing it as well, due to being mentally pushed over the edge by my behaviour.
It has ended up (on occasion) with me being bruised, but really that was indeed my fault. It really was.
BTW: I am in my late 30’s – and chosen not to have children yet because of this.
Though I still don’t fully have it under control, I must say I am much less out of control now, than I was some years ago. So in a way there is some improvement. It is possible to change.
It is very very hard though to really change your behaviour, even when you are aware of what you are doing.
It is that split-second moment when I should make that decision/choice to remain calm, that I just zap passed and in a blink of an eye I turn into the incredible hulk, with yelling and shouting to match.
Though possibly the biggest part of change has to be made by you, a supportive husband and environment to match really can help a lot.
I do feel there is a road back to making it work, but it will only be possible (in my view) for you to change if you make a tremendous effort on your part, and if your husband can search to find the patience, and if he still has the desire to also make an effort to support you in your journey, and to work on himself at the same time.
Please, don’t feel alone or discouraged by some of the comments you’ve received on your posts.
As with many things in life, we’re often quick to judge when we’ve not experienced something ourselves.
Hugs,
B
You are so 100% right. Thinking “it’s not my fault” is so common, and then many women will go on to create a second, third, fourth relationship that’s exactly same. And they will always feel like a victim their whole life. And there’s nothing worse than feeling like a victim.
Anytime someone has a problem in life, no matter what the nature, the first question should always be, how did I contribute to this problem, how did I manifest this?
And if it’s happening to your family – it is MOST CERTAINLY your problem. Your family, your problem. You don’t just get to UN-family with people who do things you don’t like. I think everyone reading your blog can relate to that on one level or another.
Whether or not any reader would stay with the farmer or leave him is not appropriate advice because I’m assuming that 99% of us have never met you. Appropriate advice will come from your friends and maybe your marriage counselor – if you like the counselor.
Bravo on always being brave enough to post your opinion, even if it is not always the popular opinion!
If you were on a deserted island, who would you be?
Forget all the “whats” that you’ve decided describe you. WHO are you? What qualities are intrinsic despite your environment?
I am not even going to read all the comments. Because I am just so happy to read your post. I read the bruise post and it’s comments. And was horrified. How could the collective reaction so easily be “leave” – I presume these people have never had complicated relationship or had to leave someone that, despite loving that person, required leaving. It isn’t easy. And you told us you had a bruise from the bed. Well, I can think of nearly a zillion times that I’ve precipitated a push during the argument. I knew there had to be more than you are telling us. Congratulations on sorting some of this out for yourself and letting us see that. And please don’t leave…yet. Certainly, there may come a time to do so. But work on your collective issues. Together. And see how that goes for awhile.
It’s amazing to me reading these comments how much people love to be on their high horse. Penelope, you write about the violence, but you also write about the love. The love between you and the farmer, the love between the farmer and your boys. You’ll figure out whats best for you all. You are aware, and as self-analytical as you can be- but above all you admit you aren’t perfect. Embracing your flaws and working towards personal growth is the only way to evolve. You only have one life. Make it what you want. Stay present, keep your eye on the goal. I know you volley back and forth between wanting a happy life and an interesting life and clearly you swing drastically between the two. I hope 2012 finds a happy medium for you and your family. I’ve been married for 7 years, and there are times it’s so hard. I only have one bit of advice for you both: don’t agree to a rule between the two of you if you can’t follow it. If you agree to give the farmer space during a fight, and you can’t do it, don’t make it a rule. It makes a bad situation worse when you think you have ground rules, then they don’t get followed. The same goes for him- if he promises to follow a rule, then renegs, it creates a perfect storm where rationality and logic cannot exist.
Best of luck to you all.
I think the critical piece in this post is not that you decided to stay but that you think you can fix your relationship by changing yourself. Its great that you’re willing to do the hard work of changing. I do think that people from violent childhoods can create violence in their adult lives — it takes a lot of work to understand your triggers and then to understand that you need to train yourself into new responses to those triggers. But we all have triggers, violent or not, and the farmer MUST do the work too. Is he willing? Is he on the same page as you?
I went through a similar situation as you. It took me a few years to feel I had truly taken responsibility and taught myself how to take ownership for the ways I was reacting. But in the end, my partner was still doing crappy thing, like ignoring me when I needed to talk about something. The final piece of our relationship getting to the awesome place it is now was him taking responsibility as well. He was stubborn about it because I was so willing to take responsibility myself, I became a bit of a scaegoat for our problems. It took me leaving him for him to realize that it does take two and he needed to step up or he would lose me. We we’re separated for three months and we’ve been back together for a year now. Our relationship has never been better.
My point is, I think you’ve articulated a great approach. But its an approach that the farmer also needs to be on board with.
Good luck! You’re strong and I look forward to reading about how it goes.
I think what you’ve articulated truly is” breaking the cycle”. Leaving only fixes your current situation. If you leave, there’s no telling whether you’ll end up in another violent relationship or not. You need to address the root if the problem. That’s truly how you break a cycle.
P: Even if you learn to train yourself to not harrange The Farmer in order to get some positive attention from him, what happens then?
Will you simply turn your pain/frustration/lonliness back onto yourself, causing self-injury (via a table lamp or a knife into your head)?
Irrespective of whether you continue to stay with The Farmer, what healthy coping mechanisms do you have in place to respond to future painful/stressful situations in your life ?
Penelope
I have to say that I understand completely where you’re coming from on this issue. I am in a relationship with my kid’s father who at times has been physically/verbally abusive to me. Not the come home mad from work and take it out on me with a punch to the face type. We have two completely different frames of reference for things. He can’t understand me. I can’t understand him. He doesn’t agree with me. I don’t agree with him. We always end up in heated arguments. Sometimes these arguments lead to physical abuse. At times I have blamed myself because I know that if I just be quiet and not insist on having my opinion heard then it wouldn’t have happened. Then part of me says that it doesn’t really matter who is at fault…no one has the right to be violent with someone else unless it’s self-defense.
There are too many complexities in each case for it to always be a “LEAVE RIGHT NOW!” decision. I don’t believe that my kids would be better without both of us in their lives. Things have gotten better because I’ve learned to think before I speak. I ask myself “is this a situation where it’s REALLY necessary that my opinion be known?” Usually, it’s not, so I’ve learned to let it go and not obsess over whether or not I’m teaching my daughters to be floor mats or my son to think that it’s ok to treat women this way. They see me keep my head up and keep going and treating someone who is difficult for me to deal with in a respectful manner. They see me trying to give them as much of a stimulating, learning environment as possible. They see me struggling to keep our family together. I ALWAYS emphasize to them that it’s a problem between their father and I that it has nothing to do with them. That they, are the best things in our life.
I do not think women who stay are always weak. In fact, unless you’ve been through it you have no idea how strong a woman has to be to stay and make the best out of a situation until it’s time to change. Even though I stay I know I have options…if I choose to take them. This doesn’t mean that I think it’s ok for Scrooge (the nickname I use on my blog for my kid’s father) to hurt me….verbally or physically.
I can’t tell the times I’ve myself left to stay in a hotel for a day or week to just let things cool off. I sometimes really love and hate him at the same time at different times. It’s a difficult situation to be in. Even though I know the statistics are that the violence will escalate until I’m dead, I just don’t think the answer is always in black or white.
Sister Sister
True Love Without Expectations
http://bit.ly/rI7RuB
I agree with you, but with careful qualifications. You must be extremely self-aware to be good at assessing this. I was with an ACTUALLY abusive partner before and we had to split. He was very violent and irrational. With my current partner, if I had a truly “zero tolerance” policy on this, we’d be split, but I am glad we are not because he is a good man and very much worth it. Now, if partners are having an argument and the woman does something completely egregious or even hits the man, is he really supposed to just take it, just because he’s the man? Sometimes, in relationships, things get heated. What really matters is are these isolated incidences and what is each person’s role in it. I agree that the woman is not always blameless. It’s not a popular POV and it’s easier to spout out “zero tolerance” but I think most situations in life don’t have absolute answers of formulas to them.
zero tolerance goes both ways: if a man hits a woman and if a woman hits a man. Maybe I am naive but I don’t think violence should be part of a normal everyday live communication. Sure, there are exceptional situation, completely out of the ordinary, and I am not beyond forgiveness, but if two people cannot live together without resorting to violence that is wrong to me. It takes strength to stay and to leave, and I don’t subscribe to the view that someone who stays is weak. But is it right that one person has to completely moderate opinions just for not triggering an outburst? I personally feel that violence is the end of communication rather then an integral part of it.
You wrote:
I don’t think violence should be part of a normal everyday live communication. Sure, there are exceptional situation, completely out of the ordinary, and I am not beyond forgiveness, but if two people cannot live together without resorting to violence that is wrong to me. . . . . I personally feel that violence is the end of communication rather then an integral part of it.
Thank you for this–your comment packs a lot of wisdom, in my view. It is the voice of moderation and the voice of reason.
What’s wrong, or rather pointless & sometimes counterproductive, is not so much zero or other tolerance levels, as telling women in violent relationships what they need to do in your opinion, as if they simply need to see things the “right” way, ie agree with your superior insight. It isn’t easy either to leave these situations, or to resolve them without leaving, and often the skills needed are the same, and are not there. When the threat is extreme, leaving actually raises the likelihood of someone being killed, for instance.
When the problem is emotional conflict between the spouses, as opposed to spontaneous attacks on one partner by the other (eg coming home drunk and violent) it is genuinely possible for either partner to end that conflict, and these are situations that would not have been regarded as abuser/ victim in the past; right or wrong morally, the question is about what can be done, and women have a right to make their own choices within certain non-absolutist boundaries.
I’ve tried to say this before in other posts, Penelope, but in complex personal situations like family choices, everything in life is not really about what is right or wrong generally. Individuals ARE often exceptions to rules, for many reasons- there is no study where every single person was part of the main group. And what this means in reality is that we have to make our own assessment and choices for our own lives, which is where the personal responsibility comes in, knowing we might be wrong. But that’s OK because as long as we’re making the effort to learn and improve, we’ll find out and make changes later. I think you get this, but it doesn’t always shine right through the moral argument of the post.
Anyway, I do hope you succeed in making the changes you need and want in 2012, wishing you all the best.
It’s also really striking how dumb and naive we mostly are on this issue. This idea that you can solve all problems by simply walking away from them must be perpetuating a lot of violence in a lot of people’s lives, because it doesn’t work- unless you get to the bottom of things, you’ll just find it showing up again next time round.
” This idea that you can solve all problems by simply walking away …”
Who’s saying this? I think it’s abundantly clear to everyone that PT has an abundance of problems, virtually none of which will be solved by walking away.
She has ONE problem that will be solved by walking her away: if she leaves the Farmer, the Farmer will no longer be violent towards her. Period. The risk that she will end up in the hospital – or the morgue – because of something the Farmer does to her will drop to zero.
Now she could certainly move on to find a new man who is violent. I think it likely that she will. But at least she’ll have a chance of being in a non-violent relationship, or of being in no relationship. While she stays with the Farmer, she has zero chance of being in a non-violent relationship or in no relationship.
Her instability, pursuit of drama at the expense of happiness, refusal to provide a safe and stable home for her sons, promiscuity, self-harm, narcissism, out of control temper, tons of baggage from an abusive childhood, inability to perceive reality etc will all remain whether or not she stays with the Farmer. But she will have all these problems while being in a violent relationship, which is, no matter how you slice it, worse than having all these problems while being in a non-violent relationship, or no relationship.
Penelope is a damaged, wounded person, and she’s in her mid-40s – the smart money says she won’t change. But there is no scenario in which she or her sons are better off in a violent relationship.
And the Farmer – he might be a genuinely decent guy who sometimes does troubling things because he can’t cope with reality (as it involved PT? Have other girlfriends been beaten up? Is this why he had no long term relationships before?) but, if you’re reading this Farmer, don’t YOU want to be in a relationship that doesn’t involve violence, or even no relationship?
She has ONE problem that will be solved by walking her away: if she leaves the Farmer, the Farmer will no longer be violent towards her. Period. The risk that she will end up in the hospital – or the morgue – because of something the Farmer does to her will drop to zero.
In the most respectable way possible…this simply isn’t true…there have been many many reports, studies, and statistics put out there…check almost any credible source on domestic violence…they will say that someone may be in even greater danger when leaving an abusive relationship. In fact, if you ever need to seek help at a domestic violence shelter or the police they will warn you to be VERY cautious now because you could be at a greater danger. This is the very reason many shelters locations are kept as secret as possible…and the security at most of them is extremely high because of the increase in danger after leaving a situation. This isn’t true in ALL cases but according to the experts it is true in lots of cases.
Again…I mean this in the most respectful tone.
SisterSister – you are absolutely correct, and thank you for saying that, because it’s true and important. When she is no longer with the Farmer, there is no chance that he will beat her, so that’s one problem solved. But you are completely correct, the process of leaving can be the most dangerous phase of the entire relationship.
If I had to guess, the Farmer isn’t the type who would stalk her and assault her because she left him. (He seems genuinely to want her out of his life from when they first started dating, but that’s another discussion.) But it is always a good idea to have a plan to protect yourself, and yes, leaving is a dangerous action even though it leads in time to a much, much safer life.
Thank you again.
You’re confusing step 1 with all the steps.
If you are addicted, dry out. Then you start the work. Fixing relationship violence while in the relationship is possible, but unlikely, like stopping alcoholism while drinking. Some people do but most don’t.
Leaving someone is not the same as denying responsibility. You can leave and take responsibility. Sometimes leaving *is* taking responsibility.
i agree with personal responsibility. and this post is pertinent.
For those of you saying “I get it; I’ve provoked that response” I’m genuinely curious…what makes you think those of us who have NOT been hit or shoved hard enough into something to get a welt like that are so different? Do you think everyone whose relationship is non-violent is that way because there’s never been a good enough argument?
I went through a really crazy, trauma-based period of two years about a decade ago (pre-therapy). Sometimes I did corner my husband. He didn’t engage. There are alternatives. If it were the Farmer posting I would also say the same: you may think this relationship is the one that will somehow not escalate, where love will somehow be enough, but as a reader I just don’t see the basis for that belief. It’s not pragmatic. Pragmatic would be a house down the road or on the farm; live separately, let the kids roam back and forth, have sex now and then; work on your issues as single but dating people. Or something,
The trend is worse, not better – which may be a function of the blog and not reality, sure; we all comment based only on that.
Hi Penelope:
If you believe that you have provoked the farmer, that he had a right to lose his temper and strike you, why are you with him?
You’re intimating that you are abusing him by provoking him, as your mother did your father.
Even by that logic, you’re both still abusing each other. You believe that you are starting it; but you are both participating in hurting each other. It may be a familiar pattern for you both to traverse, given your upbringings, but it seems highly unlikely that you will be able to resolve this conflict.
In any case, is it actually worthwhile to put the work into resolving the conflict when it has infected the relationship so deeply? Relationships do not need to be this difficult, and there is no glory in trying to make a rotten one work.
The real hard work comes from breaking out of seemingly set patterns and real change of destructive habits. Usually, you need to be by yourself to work on changing your behavior, otherwise it’s far too easy to revert to a well-worn, familiar pattern.
I wish you both realization and luck in moving forward, hopefully not together.
P,
I completely agree with your aversion to high-and-mightiness and it’s irritating that blog comments lend itself to that. I am trying really hard this year to practice your Tip 4 to being likable and eliminate all judgments (or at the very least, spewing judgments out loud).
I’m very sorry for your ongoing emotional trauma though, and without shaking my finger or feeling any “shoulds” about it, I just personally hope that you and your son figure out a safe compromise. Maybe you get an independent space for yourselves still nearby enough to see Farmer when you want to, and leave when you don’t. It’s a farm. Can you and Farmer just be neighbors instead of roomies?
Thanks for answering my question why are you REALLY not leaving. It has nothing to do with wanting to be missed.
This seems more honest. At the same time it’s manipulative. First you push your reader’s buttons to want to protect you by urging you to leave and saying endlessly how wonderful you are, when it’s really apparent that you are wonderful AND a complete ass. Now you make them twist to say “Yeah! Never thought of it that way!! You are so wonderful.”
But you are also an ass, which is sort of your point. And it’s abundantly clear how you could provoke The Farmer. Or anyone, really.
But mainly I think you are a very shrewd exhibitionist. I bet not many of your readers will have zero tolerance for your manipulations, which are sort of abusive when you think about it.
Marketing in a nutshell, eh?
You are amazing, Penelope! Keep going, you’re headed in the right direction! You’ve got this. I’m rooting for you. xo
I’m sorry you are having such a hard time. A couple of points off the top of my head:
I don’t know who said it but I read a quote once that really resonated with me. “You teach people how to treat you.” So, so true.
You and the farmer clearly want to be together but cannot live together 24/7. My suggestion would be side by side houses so that he has somewhere to go when he’s tired of dealing with you. You should not have a key. This is probably not financially feasible but I think separate spaces will be an essential component of saving this relationship.
Best of luck to you both.
Funny quote from the Farmer’s most recent blog post: “…anyone with common sense knows a blog may not accurately describe reality.”
Love it, Anna. Funny though, when I bring this up, it keeps getting deleted……..
I couldn’t agree more, Penelope. We are responsible for the kind of behavior and treatment we elicit from others. ALWAYS!!
What you are seeing are knee jerk, politicly correct responces to a complicated problem.Do what your conciense and heart dictate.Good luck.
Penelope,
When I walked into therapy as a 26-yr-old and the therapist asked if my father had been abusive, I said, “No! . . . Well, he did bruise my mom’s face several times and broke her glasses, but she started it.” I was surprised by the therapist’s response. I was only repeating what my mom had said for years when she spoke of the episodes.
Now I tour a play about a child growing up with domestic violence. The play is really about parents teaching the family system of denial and self-delusion to their kid. When I perform at colleges, I tell students that if I had seen this play as a college student, I would have thought it had nothing to do with my life or my family.
It took doing research for my play for me to realize that my dad fit the typical profile of an abuser. My dad needed control and he had a way of pushing people to do or say things that he then used as justification for venting his emotions in violence. Then he re-defined his violence as “loving parenting”, “biblical leadership in the home”, or “self defense” . . . . He only left bruises occasionally — just enough to maintain a credible threat of violence — just enough to keep us scared. And he managed to go the the grave claiming to have been victimized by my mother and misunderstood by us all.
From reading your blog, it’s clear you understand that self-delusion is what keeps dysfunctional systems going. We children of abusive families are so good at self-delusion because we were trained in it from infancy. My ability to deceive myself to avoid making hard choices — even now — stuns me. This is the basis of co-dependency.
I encourage you to keep a healthy respect for this phenomenon as you make choices for yourself and kids. Space helps with clear thinking. It’s possible to live separately while trying to build new patterns in a co-dependent or out-of-balance marriage (if your partner will tolerate this space and wants to maintain the relationship).
I have found this article on how self-delusion works very interesting as well: http://www.cleanlanguage.co.uk/articles/articles/27/1/Self-Deception-Delusion-and-Denial/Page1.html
Good luck, Penelope. I find your blog stunning. I relate to it on many levels.
Susan
Some types of domestic violence are more hurtful than others. Cutting someone deeply with a knife, for example, is worse than a slap. So: Would you agree to zero tolerance for violence that leads to such injuries as broken bones or knife wounds? Or is your focus entirely on the person who–in your theory–invites the violence?
There are a lot of women out there getting beaten up in their homes by someone they love, and among them there are many who don’t throw paint, who don’t knock over furniture, who don’t kick people.
Once, my ex-husband’s explanation for an attack that lasted three days and ended in the hospital was because I had said the snow was “so beautiful,” and that annoyed him, and afterward even he couldn’t remember why. There are a lot of women getting hurt who aren’t knocking over furniture, or starting fights, or whatever. There are a lot of them. And they hear the same messages from society that you hear. They read the same blog comments. You’re right about how strangely vicious society’s attitude towards abused women is. They act like we are stupid and insane. “Just world hypothesis,” and what not. It makes them feel safer to think that we are insane, and it makes them feel good to imagine that everything is clear and easy. I agree with you that it isn’t clear and it isn’t easy.
But I disagree with what you have done here with this post. Because those women out there who are not knocking over furniture—they are still getting beaten, and they are still feeling alone and disapproved of by the society that ought to offer them support. They are blaming themselves, because blaming themselves keeps them from feeling powerless. Blaming themselves is the only way they can feel hopeful about the future, about change.
They are already blaming themselves, whether or not they are the kind of women you describe, who knock over furniture. This post could exacerbate that terrible dangerous tendency that some abused women have. You are writing things that they will probably interpret as telling them that they are right, that it is their fault, that they should stay (they do desperately want to stay). Blaming yourself allows you to stay. The way lots of messages from society stigmatize abused women also encourages them to blame themselves, which means they continue getting hurt.
I am not specifically talking about you. I care about you, and I hope you will eventually leave, and I think you need to come to that choice on your own. But I also hope you will be aware of your celebrity and the influence it confers.
Not every situation is like your parents’ situation. Lots of violence is not so provoked. But every regularly abused woman has believed it is her fault. And society, as you point out, makes her feel worse, not better, so she is afraid to do what you have done, and talk about it, or seek help. I am worried about everything I see or read about abuse, because I remember how these things affected me when I was in that situation, and I am afraid for other women, who are vulnerable to suggestions that they are to blame and thus have power to makes things better–something that is often a very dangerous illusion. I don’t like what this post might say to them. So many women already blame themselves, and stay, and get hurt worse.
Here is what we did. We went to counseling and tried harder to communicate what we needed – learned some new ways to communicate. We also decided to understand that we had short tempers and that in some or any situation we needed to be able to leave and cool down.
So now if we are having an argument and my wife is driving me crazy with something and I feel like I am going to boil over I tell her that and we stop the discussion right there. Also either of us can leave at any time and we understand that we are not leaving for good, just to cool down. Also when one of us is gone we can talk on the phone which also makes it easy to “leave” (hang up) again or discuss something without it blowing up into something huge.
In your mother’s situation you mentioned, it certainly could have been possible for either person to reduce the violence – you father could have just left for example. I suspect your mom had a reason for throwing the paint etc as well and she could have left before that happened. Feeling free to leave the situation before it gets worse is a key way to reduce escalating anger and violence. I just don’t think all leaving has to be permanent – leave before the violence starts at a micro level.
I think it is good that you have found a way to step out of the situation. As I read through these comments I have to wonder why some couples find so much to fight about. Why are you together?