I think I’m over the happiness thing. I think I am thinking that the pursuit of happiness is, well, vacuous. I don’t think people are happy or unhappy. Because I think knowing if we are happy would require knowing the meaning of life, or the ultimate goal, or the key to the world, or something that, which really, we are not going to find outside of blind religious fanaticism.
The first thing I have to grapple with, besides having spent the last three years of my life completely enthralled and ensconced in the happiness research from positive psychologists, is if I don’t want a happy life, what sort of life do I want?
I think I want an interesting life. Not that I want to be interesting, but I want to be interested. I'm talking about what I think is interesting to me. I want to choose things that are interesting to me over things that would make me happy. For example, this post. I am not sure if I'm right on this, and I'm sure there's going to be a lot of telling me I'm an idiot in the comments. But it's going to be interesting.
I think choosing a life that is interesting to us and choosing a life that makes us feel happy are probably very different choices.
For one thing, people who are happy do not look for a lot of choices, according to Barry Schwartz, in his book, The Paradox of Choice. People who want to have an interesting life are always looking for more choices and better choices, and they make decisions for their life based on maximizing choices.
I think this because I’ve lived in NYC, where people value having a wide range of choices and opportunities over having a life that makes them feel happy. When it comes to self-reporting happiness, New Yorkers report being less happy than everyone else, and they don't care. And I’ve lived in Wisconsin, where, I’m not kidding about this, almost everyone will tell you they are happy. But you can trust me on this, Wisconsin does not offer a lot of choices and opportunities.
Now I’m going to preemptively rip on everyone who thinks they are going to comment here about Wisconsin. Wisconsin does have things that are world-class: Football, beer, cheese, PETA-inflaming bioscience departments. And there is nothing wrong with being fine with what is here. I think it is a nice life, and that’s why I moved to Wisconsin.
But on balance, Wisconsin is not a place you go to get the best of everything, which is what optimizers do. New Yorkers love that they can get the best of everything - they want that more than they want to be happy. And if you can’t understand this you merely reveal how little you know about the world. I have no more patience for people telling me I can get great eyebrows in Wisconsin, there is great shopping in Wisconsin, etc. There simply isn’t. And it’s okay. People don’t live in Wisconsin because of that. People live in Wisconsin because the lifestyle is easy – family is here, personal history is here, things generally are fine. Nothing is fine in NYC. It’s very challenging. Every single day.
The fact that I feel compelled to have a tirade about Wisconsin in the middle of this post is interesting to me: People who value choices over happiness never argue about it. They are proud of it. People who value happiness over having a life full of interesting opportunities get indignant over being accused that they made that choice.
I wish I could tell you I am a person who picks interesting over complacency, but problem for me is that life in NYC is so interesting to me, but it's just plain too hard for me. When I lived in NYC with two kids the year I had $200,000 coming in, I felt like I was living at the edge of poverty. Whenever I write this, people who have lived in NYC with kids are not surprised at all, and people who have not lived in NYC think I’m crazy. So please, if you have not raised kids in NYC, do not comment that you could easily do it on $200,000, okay?
What this illustrates, though is how different the world of lots of choices is. People will pay a ton of money to have a lot of choices, which is what they perceive as an interesting life. (See the average rent per square foot in NYC) but people will not pay a ton of money for a life with relatively few choices. (See the average rent per square foot in Madison). This makes me think that people put a higher premium on choices, because choices make life more interesting.
I recently spoke to Tyler Cowen, professor of economics at George Mason University. His book, Create Your Own Economy, is about how the information flow of the Internet allows us to manage our careers differently than before. For example, people who are focused on information (infovores, as Tyler calls them) but not on face-to-face social interaction can flourish in an information economy.
I suggested to Tyler that it’s messed up to value information processing over social interaction because I want to believe that it’s social interaction that actually makes us happy.
Tyler says that people who are infovores feel fulfilled by processing information. And he thinks that happiness is an elusive, amorphous goal. Tyler says feeling fulfilled actually gives us a feeling of happiness, and some people gain that fulfilled feeling through interaction with information rather than social interaction (makes sense from Tyler – he writes a great blog, full of fun information.)
But it scares me that this also seems true for me. I don't want it to be true for me because I want to be as complacent as the people I live with, in Wisconsin. And I want to be a socially skilled as the non-Asperger's people I try to pass for in regular life.
Tyler's ideas will resonate in the Asperger community. There is a large contingency that sees Asperger Syndrome not as a deficit but as merely a difference, and these are the people who would love to hear that the idea of happiness is myopic and that fulfillment is a more real goal, and people with Asperger’s can feel fulfilled through information processing.
I’m not sure I buy that. I want to buy it. Because I have Asperger’s and so do many people in my family, and I want to believe there is fulfillment out there for all of us.





I'm not sure about the happiness (don't know where it is/don't know how to tell you how to get there) thing but it seems to me if you're interested in stuff you have a better chance of being happy than not. Here's what I have believed FOR A LONG TIME:
You know that song "New York, New York"? I know you do.
"If I can make it there
I'll make it anywhere…"
BULLSHIT
There's so much OPPORTUNITY in New York that it's really not such a trick to make it there – the trick is in making it in conservative environs like Wisconsin…or Ohio…or Bumbf*ck, Idaho… If you can make it IN THOSE PLACES you can surely make it in NY. Stop kidding yourself. NOW is the time to be happy. NOW is the time to see what you're made of. NOW is the time to see what you can make out of little. NOW is the time. Not then. Not over there. Not tomorrow. Right NOW. Right where you are.
Posted by Maureen Sharib on January 14, 2010 at 12:57 pm | permalink |
I know I love overseas because it makes life harder and I like that. The extra challenge makes me feel alive and growing.
Posted by Alanna on January 14, 2010 at 1:00 pm | permalink |
"I’m not sure I buy that. I want to buy it. Because I have Asperger’s and so do many people in my family, and I want to believe there is fulfillment out there for all of us."
And this is the main question I've been asking you for the past two years, and I still haven't gotten a straight answer. You've written how Asperger's affects your life, your children, your business and what you've done to devise workarounds, but you haven't answered the basic question of whether or not we Aspies can find fulfillment in our lives.
Posted by jrandom42 on January 14, 2010 at 1:10 pm | permalink |
She's also never written about who actually made the diagnosis, and when.
Posted by Belinda Gomez on January 14, 2010 at 5:17 pm | permalink |
I don't think you need a person with letters after their name to diagnose most learning challenges.
Posted by tallpinetree on January 14, 2010 at 11:27 pm | permalink |
You will have to work hard to convince me that it really matters to anyone about who made the diagnosis and when. It seems irrelevant and petty to question. If she said Dr. Smith and last year how would you ever know – and why would it matter?
Posted by Allison on January 15, 2010 at 11:17 am | permalink |
The reason why it's important to know who diagnoses Asperger Syndrome is pretty simple. It's a neurological condition, where the brain actually works in different ways than it does for the neurotypical. It often manifests itself in many modes of behaivor, but the underlying cause is physiological, not psychological.
If you know of a psychologist or therapist who can accurately diagnose Asperger Syndrome without the input of neurologists, cognitive scientists, and extensive brain scans, I'd like to know who and report them to the AMA for a paper on their revolutionary diagnostic program. It would be a major breakthrough in neurology and cognitive sciences to be able to acccurately diagnose a physical condition without any physical testing.
Posted by jrandom42 on January 17, 2010 at 12:28 pm | permalink |
I also think it would add to her credibility if she could cite an official diagnosis. Otherwise, she sounds like my friend who decided she had uterine cancer because her periods were irregular.
Posted by Shannon on January 20, 2010 at 12:18 pm | permalink |
"but you haven't answered the basic question of whether or not we Aspies can find fulfillment in our lives."
that answer can not be answered by anyone but yourself. can you find fulfillment in your life? are you willing to look for it and more importantly ARE YOU WILLING TO WORK FOR IT?
the only one who can find fulfillment is the one who works for it. you are the only one who knows if you found fulfillment in your life.
Posted by IamAspie on January 16, 2010 at 6:39 pm | permalink |
When issues get overly complex for me, I tend to take a step back and make it as simple as possible. To me, you seem to be complicating this too much. If you want an interesting life, isn't that happiness to you?
I think we all have very different ideas of happiness. To say that you're over "the happiness thing" seems to be a very pretentious, New Yorky way to say, "I'm not happy, not sure I ever will be, and if I stop trying to pursue it, maybe it will happen."
Who doesn't want to be happy and enjoy life? If you're content being miserable – maybe that's happiness to you.
Posted by Rob on January 14, 2010 at 1:10 pm | permalink |
"I think I’m over the happiness thing. I think I am thinking that the pursuit of happiness is, well, vacuous. I don’t think people are happy or unhappy. Because I think knowing if we are happy would require knowing the meaning of life, or the ultimate goal, or the key to the world, or something that, which really, we are not going to find outside of blind religious fanaticism."
That's interesting because you're sort of mixing our common usage of happiness with some ancient ideas about happiness going back to Plato.
For Plato/Socrates, it was the pursuit of virtue that was the highest aim of humanity. That is to say, we were to figure out what the meaning of life is, what it is that we as a species are uniquely suited for, and then pursue it.
This distinction and contrast between emotional, hedonistic happiness against a happiness unique to fulfillment of purpose is one of the major arguments of Plato's "Gorgias" dialogue, specifically the argument between Socrates and Callicles.
I think there's a much more interesting (if that's your desire) approach to this question of happiness. Understanding Gorgias might be a good place to start even if it's 2500 years old and won't get you retweeted as much.
Posted by Chuck on January 14, 2010 at 1:11 pm | permalink |
Chick, great thoughts, and it proves the theory that the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Posted by jrandom42 on January 14, 2010 at 1:14 pm | permalink |
I love this post. I've done a fair amount of reading on happiness, but when it comes down to doing the simple activities that various books suggest to increase your level of happiness (spend 10 minutes each night writing down what you're grateful for, for example), I can never motivate myself to do it. I'd rather spend that time doing or reading about what I'm interested in, which, like you said will leave me feeing fulfilled (at least theoretically) if not happy. And while I'm not ready to admit to preferring fulfillment, it seems to me a more worthwhile goal than the ever elusive happiness. Fulfillment seems more attainable, doesn't it?
Posted by Jen on January 14, 2010 at 1:12 pm | permalink |
I agree with you completely! I just spent all of 2008 and the majority of 2009 miserable and said that my new measure of success was a level of happiness. But I love this spin on it. I love the quest for finding things that interest me- maybe that is what leads you to happiness or maybe it never makes you fully happy- but at least you have fulfilled because you seek after your own interests. Love this idea.
Posted by Elizabeth on January 14, 2010 at 5:35 pm | permalink |
You are far from being an idot and who cares what people say, I have gotten so much bad feedback from people I think they need a life, or have nothing better to do than put people down for making something of themselves, reaching out sorta speak….interesting? ABSOLUTELY!!!! Whatever life is it is certainly that. THanks. you're a peach
Posted by Winnie on January 14, 2010 at 1:15 pm | permalink |
Honestly, I think only low-IQ people get to be happy, except in short bursts.
Posted by Tzipporah on January 14, 2010 at 1:21 pm | permalink |
Something to that Tzip
Posted by Maureen Sharib on January 14, 2010 at 1:23 pm | permalink |
If this is the case, why bother living, if there's little chance of any happiness, unless you've got mental retardation issues? I mean, who is going to settle for a life of unrelenting and endless misery?
Posted by jrandom42 on January 14, 2010 at 1:28 pm | permalink |
Now you're overthinking and making all of us confused (and more unhappy) jrandom42
Posted by Maureen Sharib on January 14, 2010 at 1:39 pm | permalink |
I think you're confusing a (weak) correlation with causation. Why would happiness and being interested in things be mutually exclusive, or even inversely related? As one commenter noted above, if being interested is important to you and fulfills you, wouldn't you say it makes you happy? Happiness may be hard to define, but I disagree that it's different for each person, as another commenter noted above. Different things may bring happiness to different people, but the experience of happiness is likely the same. Happiness isn't just an emotion but a complex state that shifts from moment to moment. Even the Greeks who argued happiness comes from virtuous action still recognized happiness as the end of all our activities.
Rather than focusing so much on nailing down the external conditions that make us most happy (which never remain constant or even under our control) why not focus on cultivating a strong inner life state that remains resilient in the face of all the pain life typically throws at us? Finding pleasure is typically easy, and certainly adds to happiness, but resilience against pain is much harder. And then there's the issue of value creation–hard to be happy if you feel your life isn't meaningful in some way.
Finally, I don't agree that the pursuit of happiness is vacuous. Happiness rarely comes to people who don't work at it. You could even say we're all studies in the use of various strategies to become happy, some far more successful than others.
In any event, this is a big discussion. Looking forward to the opinions of others.
http://happinessinthisworld.com
Posted by Alex @ Happiness in this World on January 14, 2010 at 1:32 pm | permalink |
Also, I don't get your distinctions between "happiness" and "fulfillment" and "an interesting life" – you seem to be equating happiness with complacency, which seems like bullshit to me.
Every person has different things that make them happy. For you, it's keeping things interesting. For others, it's keeping things consistent and easy. That's all about happiness, just different criteria for what makes you happy.
Posted by Tzipporah on January 14, 2010 at 1:34 pm | permalink |
Right, I think some of the defensiveness Penelope encounters is due to the use of the word 'complacency.' To me, that equates to laziness, a lack of motivation, or dullness. It suggests the person is 'settling' for less than what they want in life because they lack the spine to pursue something better. Maybe 'tranquility' would be a better word to use. Think of hobbits, enjoying the pleasures of a simple life.
Midwesterners grow up thinking they're hicks, and not as bright or ambitious as people from the coasts. Although coastal dwellers do sometimes dismiss the rest of the country as 'flyover country,' a lot of this inferiority complex comes from other Midwesterners themselves. It's just silly.
Posted by Pirate Jo on January 14, 2010 at 7:40 pm | permalink |
I was born and born and raised in Illinois and Wisconsin, educated on the East Coast, lived a dozen years in Los Angeles, and am now back in Chicago and I can unequivocally state that the Midwest is full of hicks. Wisconsin is full of deer hunters, farmers, cheesemakers and Harley riders who refuse to look outside their box. My relatives still make fun of me because i don't eat meat — in 2010!! They act like its blasphemy. Illinois might as well be Kentucky once you leave Chicago. Forget about being jewish — people will look for your horns to this day. You say you are Jewish and they (Cheeseheads, Minnesotans, Michigan, Illinois) act like you said you were an alien from Mars. "Harold, did you hear that gal Penelope was a JEWEEEEEE?" That will lead the conversation for the next 5 years. People in the Midwest are provincial, close-minded and simpleminded for the most part. Madison has the Univ. thank god, but leave that county and there is nothing. I have a lot of family north of Milwaukee and they do not read a paper, they do not watch any news, they are purposefully ignorant and they like it. Just dont mess with the deer killing.
Posted by amy in chicago on January 14, 2010 at 8:30 pm | permalink |
You certainly are following the family tradition of ignorance & closed-mindedness. What a bunch of over-generalized cliches. I'm from the S.F. Bay Area, but have lived in Alaska, Wash. State, Oregon, Georgia, Indiana, Arizona & New Zealand (so far). I find intelligent, fulfilled, interesting & even "happy" people wherever I go.
Posted by S on January 30, 2010 at 12:53 pm | permalink |
If having an interesting life makes people happy, then how do you account for the New Yorkers who rate their happiness lower than average? Perhaps there's a problem with our definition of happiness. Maybe it's OK to be 'unhappy' and if you are leading an interesting and fulfilling life.
Posted by Rachel on January 16, 2010 at 8:17 am | permalink |
Interesting premise. But why do "interesting" and "happy" have to be either-ors? Why can't one be truly HAPPY by staying engaged and interested? I am the mother of an Asperger's child and I can tell when she is anxious or angry, and I can tell when she is genuinely content and dare-I-say HAPPY. Most often she is visably beyond content and merely satisfied when she is allowed to pursue one of her special interests / pssions, learn more about things that fascinate her, control her own fate – if only in small, age appropriate chunks ( she is 8. ) What I want for her,for her future is the ability to somehow have BOTh happiness and interest. I don't think one is possible for her without the other. Perhaps, this is true for us all – it is just that for some, they are interested in fewer things and do not crave new experience or choice in the same way as others…
Posted by Dana on January 14, 2010 at 1:42 pm | permalink |
There is something to this. As an Asperger's adult who has struggled with the depression of being an alien on this planet for 40 years, I have to say that there is a measure of true contentment and happiness in being completely engrossed in my current obsession/passion. The ideas of happiness and contentment in my interests are interchangeable for me. So operating on the theory that we all must pursue our own ideas of happy and considering that we are all very different people on this little planet, and that we will all have very different ideas about what that happy is, there begins the problem. Thus fueling the argument about what "happiness" truly means. It seems that intrinsically it's different for everyone. However, if we follow the idea that there may be some general, if not generic form of "happiness"…ah now we know why there are things like amusement parks and strip clubs and movie theaters and children. These things offer glimpses of that "happiness" for a moment and as humans, we are truly satisfied with that.
We cannot, as people, separate satisfaction from our happiness. We cannot, as people on the spectrum, separate our interests/obsessions/passions from happiness. Because in reality, that's what makes us happy.
Posted by KateyJane on January 15, 2010 at 7:06 am | permalink |
This is a great point — that people with Asperger's are less likely to understand how to
a. identify the feeling of being happy
and
b. expressing that feeling
I think you might be right.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 15, 2010 at 9:41 am | permalink |
And that's also Alexithymia
Posted by Heather on January 15, 2010 at 8:44 pm | permalink |
I don't think in terms of "happiness" or "unhappiness", so much as mental habits that either increase or reduce suffering. Neuroplasticity is a big deal, and if one is in the habit of viewing the world through shit-colored glasses…well, nothing will make you happy.
The Happiness Project, or any approach that emphasizes happiness, seems to me more about creating good mental habits which allow us to live more content and fulfilled lives, and to build on things that foster that, like connection, service, gratitude, etc.
But "happiness" is ephemeral.
Posted by Sheryl on January 14, 2010 at 1:44 pm | permalink |
I may not have raised a kid in NYC, but I was raised by a single mother in NYC, and she made a tiny fraction of what you say made you feel like you were living on the edge of poverty. So, don't discount people who tell you you're crazy. You are crazy if you think that $200,000 a year in NYC, even with children, is at poverty level. Maybe you should revisit the official definition of "poverty"…
Posted by Anna on January 14, 2010 at 1:47 pm | permalink |
Break it down for Anna, Penelope. It would be interesting to see where all the money goes.
Posted by Maureen Sharib on January 14, 2010 at 1:52 pm | permalink |
Anna…you beat me to it! I too was raised by a single mother in NYC, she was a nanny who earned <20G annually so I'm pretty sure that we were poor. We lived in a basement apt. and I attended public school. My mom made sure that I capitalized on what the city had to offer via school trips and other organizations that offered activities. I think my childhood relationship with NYC helped shape a large part of my adulthood and I honestly don't feel that I missed out on that much even though we were dirt poor. So my rebuttal to PT based on my individual experience: there are parents who can and DO raise children on <200K annually and those children lead rich and rewarding lives.
Posted by Bianca on January 14, 2010 at 4:18 pm | permalink |
From what I've seen, it should be pretty much impossible to raise a family on less than $20,000 a year in NYC. Hell, raising a family on that much is tough enough in Detroit. I'm just curious as to which borough you lived in.
Posted by T. Scott on January 14, 2010 at 5:38 pm | permalink |
It sounds like in your pursuit of happiness it leads you to feel unhappy. Only in America would we think we need to pursuit happiness so much that we actually put it in our declaration of independence (credit Eddie Izzard). I do not think you find happiness in the pursuit of it itself, but in the pursuit of other things. We find happiness in the pursuit of love, in creating a safe environment for our family, in learning, in teaching, in being social, in being alone, in experiencing life. Happiness isn't something you can pursue, it is a result from the pursuit of something else.
Another way to look at it, happiness is the reward you get for doing the things you should be doing, unhappiness and sadness is the punishment for fighting against what you should be doing.
Posted by theWiz on January 14, 2010 at 1:54 pm | permalink |
I've never commented before, but this debate has me very interested.
I agree with Wiz. I don't think you can pursue happiness as a goal in and of itself. I think you pursue other things that make you happy…some of the time….as a by product.
You can't be happy all the time. If you were, you wouldn't know it as you wouldn't have any unhappiness to compare it to. Also, I think my happy is not necessarily anyone else's happy. It's subjective. Sometimes it's subjective for me. What makes me happy one day annoys me on another.
The real issue is, can you recognize when you are truly happy and what are the things or actions that are making you feel happy? Are you doing what really makes you happy or are you doing what other people think should make you happy? It's unfortunate that people often only realize they were happy after the moment has passed, and that too many people are doing what they've been told will make them happy instead of figuring out what really does make them happy.
Posted by meemee on January 14, 2010 at 2:24 pm | permalink |
Ditto. Happiness is subjective based on who we are as people in a given moment. For example: my husband makes me happy most of the time. He's so cute when he comes up behind me and snuggles his nose in my neck when I'm just relaxed and watching my favourite show under my cuddly warm blanket in front of the heater. However, it's just annoying when I've just come home from work after finding out I've lost my job after 3 years of working my ass off. Then it's annoying. So, yes, happiness is subjective. Completely.
Posted by KateyJane on January 15, 2010 at 7:12 am | permalink |
My favorite piece of wisdom on this subject: “All we need to make us really happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” (Charles Kingsley in the 19th century).
Recently I've come to believe that one of the secrets to being happy is to be more open-minded about what you find interesting. There are interesting things in even the most mundane life, if you squint just right. Your interactions with other people, for example. (Yes, I know Asperger's puts a different cast on that issue; I don't know that I have it, but I definitely identify with its traits.)
And by the way, in Madison and much of the rest of the country, you have access to nature and the outdoors in a way that NYC can't touch.
Posted by Joe on January 14, 2010 at 1:55 pm | permalink |
I think you need to give a clear definition of what happiness is, in your opinion.
I am extremely happy when I am in New York or San Diego or San Francisco. I am extremely miserable when I am in some boring suburb with nothing much to do. Choice, variety of things to do – make me happy.
Maybe you mean "comfort" by happiness? Or the "ease" of obtaining those basic comforts we seek?
Posted by Ulyana on January 14, 2010 at 1:58 pm | permalink |
Please, someone define the term. I can't discuss something unless I know we agree on a definition.
Posted by LPC on January 14, 2010 at 3:14 pm | permalink |
Isn't that the point? There is not really a definition that we all can agree on. Not with passion and interest and true happiness. Now is there?
Posted by KateyJane on January 15, 2010 at 7:15 am | permalink |
You know the first thing people ask you when they haven't seen you for a while or just if they're your family is "Are you happy?". I never know how to answer that. Is being happy really the most important thing? Do I have moments of happiness? No one is happy all the time right? I'm usually interested in what I'm doing, sometimes that makes me happy and sometimes it sucks. Maybe a better question is "Are you fulfilled?" Or "Are you enjoying your life?" Happiness is too relative and momentary.
Posted by CJ on January 14, 2010 at 2:13 pm | permalink |
People ask you if you're happy? They ask me how I've been. Is that what they mean?
Posted by Maureen Sharib on January 14, 2010 at 2:30 pm | permalink |
I wonder, being a "neuro-typical" ( NT ) person raising an Aperger's person, if perhaps the real issue is that the 2 worlds in question here -the NT and the Aspie are engaged in a battle of semantics. I dont' thing Asperger people are any less capable of feeling happiness than anyone else. I DO think they may be less adept and articulating what it feels like to them, to recognizing it in others, and to understanding what a makes them or anyone else feel it. Emotions are tricky things.
Happiness is not like physical hunger where the brain sends predicatable signs to the body and where predictable actions ( eating – anything ) will always produce results ( cessation of hunger.) What makes a person happy one day may fail to do so the next. What makes one person happy may frustrate, annoy, anger, or even depress another. So ultimately Asperger's people may be less adept at figuring out the brains' messages – at seeing the patterns in the behaviors they engage in, the situations they put themselves or find themselves in, and how these things interact and effect their emotional state. The search for
"happiness" then, may actually be the search for a kind of predictability even within a seemingly infinite range of options ( of the very sort Penelope is seemingly against in Wisconsin ) – enough so that a person can confidently predict that his or her actions and circumstance will result in a particular outcome. Just the same way we actively choose NOT to engage in behaviors or put oursleves in situations which we know from experience ( our own or vicarious ) will cause us stress, harm, or UNhappiness ( we opt NOT to put our hand in a fire because we know we will be burned… we opt TO stnad close to one when we are cold and wish to get warm, and feeling warmer after being cold makes us HAPPIER than being cold.)
Posted by Dana on January 14, 2010 at 2:24 pm | permalink |
Although I love this topic I have to say… the fact that all of us have the time to contemplate what makes us happy? Would we rather be interested in our lives than happy? Are these actually different things… is just well (other than a fun topic of conversation) over-indulgent? That's not the right word (it's a bit harsh) but I can't think of a better one right now.
My point is sometimes we need to just slow down, remind ourselves all we can ever know for certain is we have today/this moment and it would behoove everyone to just live in the moment as best we can and try and learn to compartmentalize our overanalyzing.
Posted by J on January 14, 2010 at 2:27 pm | permalink |
I have a very hard time with all of this talk about happiness research. It implies that happiness is something that can be studied and achieved by following a list of steps. Perhaps if we stop trying to get the formula right and start living a life that is fulfilling to us happiness will fall into place. Maybe worrying so much about being happy is what prevents happiness in the first place.
I also don't buy that we have to make a choice between being happy and being interesting, interested, fulfilled or anything else. Why does it have to be mutually exclusive?
Also, Penelope, I have to address your NYC theory. I grew up in a small midwest and now live in Chicago. I also have been to New York often and interact frequently with colleagues on the East Coast. At the risk of offending many people here, I am going to argue that you are neglecting another factor in your Wisconsin/New York comparison. Perhaps it is not just city size and choices, but the mentality of Midwesterners to East Coasters. I find that in general, people from the Midwest have an easier time allowing themselves to be happy. Call this complacency if you want, but I think my Midwest attitude would help me to be happy anywhere – including NYC.
Please take a look at this article if you get a chance (I am an IU alum by the way):http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122057234017401625.html. I like the last 2 paragraphs especially and I think it sums up my argument nicely.
Posted by Katie on January 14, 2010 at 2:28 pm | permalink |
I've never actually commented before, but this topic has been on my mind lately. Here's my stance on happiness and choices:
For as long as I can remember, everyone in my life has been telling me that I am wonderful and that I can do and accomplish absolutely anything I want in life. (Gen Y, sound familiar?). And it just so happens that most things I've ever tried in life, from music to sports, friendships to relationships, writing and languages to sciences and math, have all been successful.
So one of the hardest things for me is being in a situation where you have too many possible choices, and way too many interests. Because what that means is that so far in life (and I'm only 24), I've spent way too much time deciding and analyzing whether the choices I've made are better or worse that all the other possible choices I could have made up to this point. Or, what life would be like if I had made different choices. This applies to where I live vs. where I could have lived, what career field I'm in versus all the things I could have done that would have either given me more money, more prestige, more of a challenge, more travel, etc. It's even applied to my decision to get married young versus being single and having more freedom to change my course whenever I want.
But one of the hardest things about feeling that way, is that whenever I've thought about going a different direction in my life, I stop. Because there are still too many choices and still too many things I'm interested in out there, and I can never decide what to do next or what to change. This drives me absolutely crazy, because I end up not changing anything because I can't make up my mind.
So I think having endless choices can create this vicious cycle of unhappiness because it leaves you feeling lost and confused about your purpose in life.
Posted by Carisa on January 14, 2010 at 2:45 pm | permalink |
You must be a Libra
Posted by Judy on January 14, 2010 at 4:21 pm | permalink |
Actually, this is a common Gen Y disease. I'm a Gemini and I feel this way too, all the time.
Posted by Jill on January 14, 2010 at 5:23 pm | permalink |
I'm a Gen Y (Cancer) with the exact same issue. My family spends their lives labeling me indecisive. If only they could understand that it's the worry of a lost opportunity rather than the fear of decision making!
Posted by Elizabeth on January 14, 2010 at 11:25 pm | permalink |
Carissa,
I think your comment gets right at the root of why so many people are unhappy. We live in a goal-obsessed culture where "picking your passion" and living a narrowly defined life (doing one thing, in one place) is exalted as the only path to happiness, while at the same time we're presented with an endless menu of choices. It's enough to drive anyone mad, no wonder we're indecisive!
The truth is that there are far fewer people who are suited for "just one thing" (and happy about it – just ask Tiger Woods or Andre Agassi) than there are people who could be happy in any number of situations. The trick is not to see your current situation as a life or death decision, but to allow yourself to experiment, try different things, enjoy them, and move on when they don't fulfill you anymore.
And P – why is Madison a life sentence? Surely you're successful enough to go stay in NY with your kids when you feel the urge, share with them all you love about it, then come back to Madison for the peace and quiet you crave? You simply need a little of both.
Posted by Rebecca MacDonald on January 15, 2010 at 8:18 pm | permalink |
Carisa, you may be only 24 but your comment is very honest, descriptive, and not tainted by age "experience", or "philosophy". I say this because I am forty-five years old, and even though I've read some wonderful comments in this most interesting discussion, your words describe almost to a tee what I've been feeling/experiencing for years.Your comment generated several responses because you touched on something that will help people take a closer look at ourselves and offers the comfort of knowing that there are other people experiencing this peculiar form of alienation. I wish that I could offer a solution, but alas, I'm just a searcher like yourself. Keep your head up, try to stay positive, and just LIVE!
Posted by Wali on February 1, 2010 at 6:29 pm | permalink |
I’ve thought about NYC and optimization since you first started writing about this somewhat bizarre confluence of personality type and location. I was here on 9/11 and had to wonder if those attacks would transform the city, but it really just solidified the tenor of the city – you come here, and stay here, because of something deeper than a job, or the location, or the best bagels. To stay here you have to recognize that you have a desire to see what happens next before anyone else does. At its heart, I think optimization is about wanting to see the future as soon as it dips the first toe into the present. Why so many of us congregate in NYC is probably because when you have that desire strongly enough that you'll even put up with high rents and the subway, it helps to be around other people like you, people who feel the same pull.
And P, just because you are in Wisconsin doesn’t mean you aren’t just as much an optimizer. In a sense that’s what Brazen is, a focused look at Gen Y career and life trends where the top ideas are always bubbling to the surface, and where ideas about a possible future path for this cohort move from thought to practice – with the best ones, the optimal ideas, taking hold. So you’re still optimizing work and business, but moved past some of the limitations of geography.
Posted by Seth on January 14, 2010 at 2:52 pm | permalink |
Penelope, you don't like being called a snob. That is what your "eyebrows in Wisconsin" rant is about. The thing is, you are not wrong, that NYC or any other big city usually offers more choices than any place in Wisconsin. The problem is that you depreciate the choices offered in WI, insisting that you don't have the patience for people who call you a snob – in other words the ones who can't afford to fly to LA to get their eyebrows waxed. The Midwest is not a fashion-conscious as the coastal cities; but that doesn't mean fashion isn't available.
To that point, in your Sept 29 '09 post, you mentioned Sarah, who helps you shop – incidentally while utilizing shopbop, which is "actually based in Wisc. so you could even go to the store and clearly nordstrom and american apparel are everywhere."
I moved from Minneapolis to a huge metropolitan area in Southern California months ago, and I have yet to find a decent (clean, with an extensive collection) used bookstore in the entire city. And I've looked. In Mpls, there were two within five minutes walking distance. More choice does not guarantee quality.
People also live in big Midwest cities because (yes, it's easier, but also) they think that they can get something as high quality as in NYC or LA, but at a much lower cost.
**You should've moved to Minneapolis instead of Madison.**
"New Yorkers love that they can get the best of everything – they want that more than they want to be happy. And if you can’t understand this you merely reveal how little you know about the world."
It's not that they can get the best of everything. It's that they think you can *only* get the best of everything in NYC.
But I guess if you are determined to believe that this is my ignorant rube-ness talking, then so be it.
Posted by Amanda on January 14, 2010 at 3:04 pm | permalink |
I totally agree with Amanda about the tendency to depreciate the choices offered in a place with less choices. I do it too–all the restaurants in my small Texas town are assumed to be not that great until proven otherwise, but I didn't have that attitude about trying restaurants in New York.
The other side of that "best of everything" coin: yes, New Yorkers have their choice of many really amazing things–food, fashion, art, etc. But first of all, once you've lived there a while, how often do you really take advantage of it? I love the opera, but I think I went one time in the last two years I lived in NYC. You just get too tired from working all the time, knowing you have to take public transportation, etc.
Second, it gets a bit overwhelming after a while. Even when I'd want to go to a museum or something, I'd look at the three full pages of museums in Time Out New York and then have to decide which one was the *best* one, the *most important* one for me to see, which wore me right out.
Posted by boots on January 14, 2010 at 4:27 pm | permalink |
Minneapolis is MUCH 'better' than Madison. But Madison is just as beautiful :)
Posted by Liza on January 14, 2010 at 4:27 pm | permalink |
Are you in LA? THere's a good used bookstore in Pasadena.
Posted by Belinda Gomez on January 14, 2010 at 5:19 pm | permalink |
I live in NJ…a 20 minute train ride into NYC. I also spent 2 weeks in Minneapolis a year ago. Granted, I was staying at the Hilton, and had the benefit of the walkways to make it the best commute ever, but nothing is like New York City. I think Penelope does not fit there. She is lucky Madison puts up with her.
Posted by Claire on January 14, 2010 at 11:08 pm | permalink |
Hold it. I don't mind being called a snob. I'm such a snob about eyebrows that I actually think I lose sleep over it.
Have you noticed the changes in George Cloony's girlfriend's eyebrows since she's been with him? I worry that if her eyebrows could be improved, then mine definitely could be, but I can't figure out how to do it: Panic.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 15, 2010 at 9:43 am | permalink |
Again, if something of so little consequence causes you so much anxiety, is it any surprise that you find happiness elusive?
Posted by Joe on January 15, 2010 at 9:48 am | permalink |
I'm still looking for the right eyebrow person in Amsterdam, the Netherlands. Took me 6 months already. I'm frantic by now. There's only one eyebrow place, and that is NYC.
If you have to raise your eyebrows at something or someone at least let them look good while you're at it.
Happiness is not a place. It's a state of mind, It's when and where you feel you belong and it's almost certainly not a perpetual thing but more an overall feeling and pretty much almost always with 20/20 hindsight.
* Only 200.000 and scrambling? Twice that and it can still be a struggle. And only Manhattan based parents can relate to that.
Posted by Mascha on January 15, 2010 at 4:25 pm | permalink |
you are funny. i am going to find some photos to compare! then i need to find an eyebrow person. and in chicago, contrary to popular opinion, there are no Anastasia's to be found
Posted by amy in chicago on January 16, 2010 at 8:13 pm | permalink |
I find the optimizer discussion interesting. I grew up in the mid-west, have lived in NYC and LA and am now in a smaller city in Virginia. I have to say that I enjoyed living in NYC and LA the most and would categorize myself as an optimizer. What I have found surprising is that I have learned to appreciate how easy it is to live in a smaller city.
I still miss living in "the big city" because of all that those cities have to offer. For me the trick to happiness has been to learn to appreciate and optimize what is special about the place that I currently live.
That said, I definitely miss the hair and nail salons of big cities – I'm sorry, but small towns just can not compete! :-)
Posted by Michelle on January 14, 2010 at 3:16 pm | permalink |
Again, what do we mean by happiness? I feel happy right now. I am on my sofa. Music is playing on my computer. I had carnitas for lunch. But is my every dream fulfilled? Hardly. Am I still happy? Absolutely. Is that what you mean by happy? The actual sensation of an actual person at an actual moment in time?
Posted by LPC on January 14, 2010 at 3:16 pm | permalink |
I blinked and you substituted "fulfilled" for "interested." You're good, but slippery.
In 1998, Harper's published a great article called "Going Broke on $100,000 a Year," about living in NYC. Like a lot of self-inflicted disasters, it was clear that a basic belief led to a chain of choices and consequences that had devastating results. I suppose you could blame NYC, and obviously that's overly-simplistic, but you like these kinds of decision shortcuts. I guess that's served you well enough, but to read some of your posts — those you write when you're writhing in pain — it's hard to understand why you take such absolute positions.
Posted by Dan Owen on January 14, 2010 at 3:21 pm | permalink |
Interesting question about choices people make living in NYC. I think people live like the people they live near, and there's not point in asking someone to live in NYC but not live like other New Yorkers.
Customs are different in different cities. In NYC I ate out nearly every meal. That's what you do in NYC. In Wisconsin I never go out. It's not that I'm a different person. It's that you become the people you hang out with.
This is shown to be true in law firms as well, by the way. People who go to law school to save the world: They think they will work for the ACLU after they spent a few years at a big law firm earning enough money to pay back school loans. But then they become like the big law firm lawyers who care a lot about money, and they never get to ACLU.
-Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 15, 2010 at 9:47 am | permalink |
Dan Ariely makes similar points in his research, and I know you've written blogs on him before – I bring him up to ask whether it might be irrational to value an abundance of choices over a predictably comfortable existence.
Posted by ejly on January 14, 2010 at 3:23 pm | permalink |
Finally, I have a label for myself that fit's: "infovore" – thank you for that. (See, everyone gets something different out of your posts, which is why they are so widely read.)
And I think Tyler is correct in that infovore's feel fulfilled processing information (I do). It used to be, the best information and data could only be found in a big place like New York or London or Washington or at a big research university. But now with the internet everyone can access it, and share their ideas and thoughts (by blogging), which somewhat broadens city choice for many infovores.
That said, I still believe that social interaction and cross-pollination of ideas generates better ways to interpret information, so many infovores will still want to live in a place with lots of other infovores and non-infovores. We just may see more of those places — microhubs if you will — around the world.
Posted by Wendy on January 14, 2010 at 3:37 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
I'm sad. I posted a comment and don't see it here. Did it get caught in your spam filter?
Alex
Posted by Alex @ Happiness in this World on January 14, 2010 at 3:46 pm | permalink |
Hm. Not sure where the comment went. You have to have one or two swear words in the comment to tip off the spam filter, and even then, I approve almost every one of those by hand :)
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 15, 2010 at 9:48 am | permalink |
My $.02:
I consistently meet ambitious people that go out of their way to take lots of risks that make their lives harder, but ultimately better or more interesting. It's a struggle, but it's a sense of purpose.
Think about botany, or even life in general. Procreation is dependent upon having many "choices." In conception, millions of sperm will attempt to fertilize an ovum – with most failing in the process. Plants will disperse scores of spores and seeds, knowing that many will fail – but some will flourish. They take many chances for their future and allow for some mistakes but trust that their efforts will pay off.
If someone is hooked on trying to be happy, perhaps they are looking for a way to rationalize their survival when our fight isn't as hard as the Oak tree.
Just a thought.
Posted by Jennifer F. on January 14, 2010 at 3:51 pm | permalink |
"I consistently meet ambitious people that go out of their way to take lots of risks that make their lives harder, but ultimately better or more interesting. It's a struggle, but it's a sense of purpose."
I meet people like this, too. They think their complicated lifstyle gives them permission to complain. It's annoying. It may be more "interesting" to them, but not to me.
Posted by Judy on January 14, 2010 at 4:52 pm | permalink |
I find Penelope's position on Asperger's generally too negative, though not different from the conventional medical line, but that doesn't mean there is no defensiveness or exaggeration in the Aspergers community- we're all people, mostly flawed, IMO!
But the idea that there is *no* fulfilment for Aspergers people seems both pointless and self-fulfilling. It makes a lot more sense to assume that all people with disabilities, and all people who are neurologically atypical, and all people who are considered physically perfect (not sure who that would be, but back to the point…)CAN find fulfilment, in the sense of living their best possible lives, even though most of us need at least half a lifetime just to figure out the beginning part of how to do that, surely.
It's not easy to measure fulfilment till you have it- I'm 42 and can honestly say there are one or two areas of my life where I genuinely feel completely fulfilled. For now. And one or two others where I don't. But I think there are principles for how to achieve it: be honest with yourself, strive to improve, forget trying to conform to social convention, forget trying to fit into generalisations (without being an egomaniac obviously), live what you believe, etc. Anyone can do those. Living a good life is fulfilling.
Posted by Alice Bachini-Smith on January 14, 2010 at 4:10 pm | permalink |
1) If the whole point of the article was that both social connection and information processing can bring fulfillment, and that they're just *different*, then why the value judgment against social fulfillment that's inherent in your statement: "I want to be as complacent as the people I live with, in Wisconsin." This implies that you don't see them as "separate but equal" choices for various people to choose from, but your way as better and theirs as worse.
2) I believe, and I'm guessing you'll agree with me, that social connection is harder for a lot of people than information processing. This is not true only of people with Aspergers. My friends have often been books (non-fiction, mainly). It's much easier for me to enjoy learning than it is to enjoy another person's company, but that's because of me and my personality. However, I'm not going to take a position of superiority here and say that my way is better. I'm also not going to assume that people who value and are fulfilled by social connection are taking the easy way out because, shit, if it's not easy for me, how do I know it's easy for them? My close personal relationships are a huge struggle for me and not some sort of mental break when my eyes get tired from reading or watching Planet Earth.
3) I, too, would rather be interested in my life than carefree, assuming both are equally achievable (I don't think they are, but I'm talking desire here and not possibility).
4) Because of this, to me fulfillment == happiness, an enormous part of which is intellectual fulfillment. I have an impossibly-low tolerance for boredom. I will end relationships if we have the same fight more than a few times because it bores me to take 15 minutes to go through the same tired dialogue again (see above about relationships being a struggle). I'm "happiest" when I'm not bored. I *do* think it's ridiculous to chase around having a warm, fuzzy feeling inside all of the time or having no cares in the world, etc., but maybe that's just me. However, I also don't feel that this is what most people "searching for happiness" are searching for. Perhaps I'm wrong, because I mainly surround myself with people who also equate fulfillment with happiness. But if I say I'm happier now than I was 20 years ago, it's because I'm more fulfilled now, I know myself more, I have a greater understanding of and respect for the complexity of the world, and I'm less judgmental (although definitely not un-judgmental) about other people's choices. I don't give a shit if what makes them happy (fulfilled) is different from what makes me fulfilled (happy) and I don't really give a shit if their definition of happiness is different than mine. I "wasn't happy" at my last job because I felt my brain atrophying there. I'm "happier" now because I'm learning stuff, constantly, and am surrounded by other people I can bounce ideas off and learn from. So, I don't know where this puts me. And I think it's an interesting question, where this line is drawn, but I don't think assuming we're all using the same conceptual language here will bring about any meaningful answers.
Posted by mrh on January 14, 2010 at 4:12 pm | permalink |
mrh, I don't know if you're male or female, but, hey dude/dudette, your little profile here is ME all the way!!! Point#4 is definitely the bomb and I can definitely relate!!!
All bets are off when I become bored or disinterested!
Because I have an appetite for knowledge for it's own sake, I have very little patience for ignorant and shallow people or mundane and silly conversation,entertainment, etc. It feels good to know that there are people out here with similar things on their mind and that I'm not just some cranky, sometimes overly sentimental,intellectual snob!
Great topic and conversation here, by the way.
Posted by Wali on February 1, 2010 at 7:11 pm | permalink |
I didn't read the other comments so forgive me if I am repetitive. "May you live in interesting times" is an old Chinese curse. I think you are right that seeking out an interesting life is in many ways in direct opposition to a happy life. But I don't really think people that choose easy or complacent are really happy. Many people derive happiness from conquering challenges. If it weren't for the challenges and risk, they'd be bored and unhappy.
Posted by Jennifer on January 14, 2010 at 4:14 pm | permalink |
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. :)
Be happy that you can choose to live in Wisconsin and limit your choices.
I think you're right. I went to college in Morris, MN (farmville) and everyone was happy there. There was 1 grocery store, no mall-unless Pamida counts and 1 nice 'fancy' restaurant. Maybe it's simple=happiness.
Either way, I'm never happy. I don't have a problem of always needing interesting, I always need to have a goal in mind, something to plan for.
It's a daily struggle for those who can't accept live as it's handed to them. :) But through that, they find enjoyment (something much better than happiness).
Posted by Liza on January 14, 2010 at 4:23 pm | permalink |
1. Tyler Cowen makes a science- and ethics-based point of not segregating Asperger's from autism. In case anyone is interested.
2. Reducing the possibilities for human neurological variation to either a "deficit" or a "merely a difference" is missing the point. Differences, including the differences between autistic and nonautistic cognitive phenotypes, can be profound without being pathological.
3. Sharing information in areas of interest, at least when this is done between or among autistics, is a very social thing. I don't see how reducing the possibilities to either/or in this area (you interact with information or you interact with others) is useful or accurate. Or that's my view, and experience.
Posted by Michelle Dawson on January 14, 2010 at 4:45 pm | permalink |
You might try reading Bright-Sided by Barbara Ehrenreich (of Nickel & Dimed). I don't think she has it all right, but it's an interesting read when you're wondering where all of this "happiness-talk" is driving from.
Best with your interesting life!
Posted by Connie on January 14, 2010 at 4:56 pm | permalink |
I usually ignore all this "happiness" talk because I used to believe you were happy if strived to be happy. If being constantly interested in things that happen around you makes you happy, then why try and separate it from the term happiness? The topic of happiness is so huge and it is different for so many people. I don't know HOW people are able to break it down. I've thinking about happiness lately also. Tell me what you think: http://fromtheresa.blogspot.com/2010/01/my-best-friend-found-his-hero-this.html
Posted by Theresa on January 14, 2010 at 4:58 pm | permalink |
Penelope-
It sounds like a lot of your anger issues are rooted in the fact that you do not feel at home in Wisconsin.
Posted by Judy on January 14, 2010 at 4:59 pm | permalink |
I'm inclined to agree with Tyler. If you feel fulfilled by leading an interesting, choice-filled life, then you will be a happier person if you lead that kind of a life.
With regards to where a person lives (and I haven't been to the US, never mind lived in either NYC or Wisconsin), what about the people who (like me) move to a foreign country, something that is very interesting and involves loads of other choices (such as how native you'll actually go, etc), but do so to lead happier lives?
Posted by Sarah on January 14, 2010 at 5:10 pm | permalink |
I'm quite happy to say I want to live my life processing information. It is indeed what gives me pleasure (hence the 3 Bachelor's degrees I've done).
But how to do it outside an academic context, that's my problem. And in a way that contributes to my community/county. Any advice, Penelope?
Posted by ginevra on January 14, 2010 at 6:07 pm | permalink |
I think happiness is like a cat. The more you focus on it, the less likely it is to come to you.
So IMO, good call to focus instead on an interesting life. Then you might find that happiness and interestingness can indeed co-exist.
Posted by melanie gao on January 14, 2010 at 6:10 pm | permalink |
Love the cat analogy. Maybe I will stop writing happiness posts for a while and see what happens…
–Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 15, 2010 at 9:36 am | permalink |
I am an infovore, and a satisficer, and I'm happy.
Posted by Sandy on January 14, 2010 at 6:28 pm | permalink |
I want to be happy, dammit. All happiness/all the time. I'd give up my perfect eyebrows in exchange for happiness anyday.
I'm just waiting for everyone out there in the ether to figure out The Secret Of Happiness (and then let me in on it) ….
Posted by neko on January 14, 2010 at 7:11 pm | permalink |
@ T. Scott
It's not impossible and it happens more frequently than I'd like to see (teaching at an inner city school). We lived in Queens and Brookly in the 80's-early 90s in an immigrant community and that's just the way I thought life was. I was quite pleasantly surprised when I got to college. I'm really grateful for my upbringing because it taught me the value of being cognizant of the difference between relationships w/people and relationships w/things.
Posted by Bianca on January 14, 2010 at 7:15 pm | permalink |
I don't get why you have to separate happiness from interesting. You seem to be going around in circles with that Penelope. It seems to me as if you see happiness as settling for something less than perfect and interesting as looking for the next best thing (and maybe never finding it). You won't feel happy very often or even notice when you are if you are always looking for something better. Satisficer versus Maximizer?
Posted by Heather on January 14, 2010 at 7:23 pm | permalink |
This is valid. As Asperger's people we see what other people call happy and it's not exactly what we think is happy. So, we spend our lives observing others, doing what they do, pretending to fit in, however, we never quite get it exactly right. So, I think this leads us into a land of confusion. We look at others and their "happy buttons" and wonder how to make our "happy buttons" perform the same function. For us interesting does equal happiness. Not always so for others.
Posted by KateyJane on January 15, 2010 at 7:26 am | permalink |
I've read that people's happiness is in large part, influenced by that individual's "happiness set point." I tend to agree with this theory, and am one of those with a very high happiness set point. I feel happy much more often than I feel unhappy. But of course, I do experience both.
Do I think it's a waste to try and maximize the frequency of happiness and minimize the frequency of unhappiness? Nope. Do I think it's possible to feel happy all the time? Nope.
For me, the secret (actually shared to me by a wise commenter on my blog) is ENGAGEMENT. You may call it "lots of choices" or "having an interesting life", but I'd say it's being INTERESTED IN your life, being engaged. And sometimes having lots of choices helps to engaged you.
Each year I spend a month in Manhattan, and that is a month when I feel happiness with the most frequency. Just going about day to day things is harder than in my usual suburban life. Figuring out how to get from point A to point B is harder. Deciding among the various choices is harder. And that makes me feel more engaged. That engagement with my life makes me feel amazingly happy.
When I'm on autopilot (for me that was before I retired: get up, go to work, go to the gym, cook dinner, watch tv, go to bed, get up and start it all over again), I'm not engaged in my life, and I feel unhappy.
The trick is figuring out what engages me when I'm not somewhere else like New York. I don't need to relentlessly pursue happiness, I just need to focus on what engages me. That's different for every person. But I think if you seek out what engages you (whether that's information, relationships, or yoga, or writing, or whatever), the happiness follows.
When you're engaged, you're paying attention. And what's the point of having the life you really want if you're not even paying attention?
Posted by Retired Syd on January 14, 2010 at 8:03 pm | permalink |
You're a little misinformed about positive psychology–rather than pursuing "the happy life," pursue "the good life," which is about engagement and flow.
Positive Psychology founder Martin Seligman's TED video–start at 11:30.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/martin_seligman_on_the_state_of_psychology.html
Posted by Alison on January 14, 2010 at 8:11 pm | permalink |
do what makes you happy as often as possible. It's not always possible – sometimes we have to choose between several less than optimal options, the lesser of several "evils" etc. So… be as happy as you can with what you DO as often as possible. Accept the choices you make. Accept that sometimes there are limitations on options. Accept that things don't always NEED to be better than they are to be good, that you don't always need more than you have, and that one is always missing out on something – the act of making ANY choice automatically rules out at least some other simultaneous options. But CHOOSE not to regret the things ( or people, or opportunities )you are missing – celebrate what you are choosing. That about sums it up.
Posted by Dana on January 14, 2010 at 8:20 pm | permalink |
As one of my professors put it: I don't want to be happy in life.
I want to experience what it means to be human, and that involves a whole range of emotions aside from happiness. A purely happy life is a boring one (imagine watching The Notebook every time you see a movie) because sadness, anger, etc., play just as vital a part of being human as happiness. Maybe this seems so intuitive to me because I am in the interesting life camp.
Posted by Derek on January 14, 2010 at 8:40 pm | permalink |
A post on this topic was always going to get strong responses! My view is that, for many men, happiness stems from success at work. It's a bit of a primeval thing. A man who is successful at work is much more likely to come home in a good mood and to interact well with the family that one who is not. So, having a good fit with your job role (certainly as a male) seems to be an aspect of the happiness "formula".
Posted by Dr. G on January 14, 2010 at 9:53 pm | permalink |
You are crazy for thinking that you could raise kids in NYC for $200,000 a year.
The more realistic figure would be $275-300k a year. You might have had a decent quality of life in the city on $200k ten years ago, but unless you really like ramen noodles (and you'd pay $1.79 for them where the rest of us pay $0.49), you're not raising the next generation of Manhattanites unless you have an aunty die on the lower east side and you can get the rent controlled walk up, fuhgettaboutit! It's called inflation!!
I also heard it this way: $200k is the new $100k.
Happy? Unless you can define it in more concrete terms than:
: enjoying or characterized by well-being and contentment
: characterized by a dazed irresponsible state
what's the use in trying to be that?
Interested:
1 : having the attention engaged
2 : being affected or involved
That sounds more like what life's supposed to be. If you are interested in the things and people around you, you probably aren't going to have the time to worry about being "happy". Whatever that is.
This little crisis is probably your fault for not taking your own advice. You probably just need to get <a href="http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/03/how-much-money-do-you-need-to-be-happy-hint-your-sex-life-matters-more/"title="laid" more.
Posted by J- on January 14, 2010 at 9:57 pm | permalink |
I don't think fulfilled or challenged or interested or any of the rest amount to more than good things to reach for.
Happy is gratitude. All the rest is just the stuff you do with your day.
Posted by Elizabeth on January 14, 2010 at 10:19 pm | permalink |
Infovore, what a great word. So that's what I am.
Happy times are like butterflies flitting by. You enjoy them when you can, and when they are in season.
Posted by Diana on January 14, 2010 at 11:11 pm | permalink |
Opportunity I think is the difference here also… oooh I want to be a "dancer/actor/wall street broker/real estate mogul/fashion editor…" I move to ???? NYC? You have the luxury of already knowing your strengths, knowing what you want and building your own company. I am thinking the people living in NYC are waiting to find all those so they can also live somewhere else:) okay, it's just an idea.
Posted by Renee on January 14, 2010 at 11:34 pm | permalink |
There's a universe in an atom – if I have passion for that universe and explore it to my greatest capacity, I'm happy.
If your passion is being controversial/interesting/interested, including marginalizing happiness and happy people, more power to you. I just hope your readers recognize that pondering questions like "the meaning of life" and "the nature of happiness" is reminiscent of freshman philosophy classes. It's first rate mental masterbation – it's fun (for the interested and interesting) but doesn't really amount to much. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for masterbation (mental and otherwise), but I also don't expect to find happiness or life's meaning in it – so don't be disappointed that it didn't fulfill your happiness quest.
As an aside, the NY (enter any big city in the world) has more/better than Madison/Wisconsin (enter any rural/small city/state in the world) is a cliched and specious discussion (although always good for a rise out of some). Cliched because it's usually made by the aristocratic sect and is based on values/culture (the use of eyebrow maintenance and shopping as comparative standards is telling) reserved for the privileged few. Specious because it shows a complete lack of understanding and appreciation of values and passions other than your own. Opportunities/choices are infinite if you find your atom of passion. It's unfortunate you can't appreciate that atom exists in NY and Wisconsin. Different elements, but a universe just the same…
Thanks for being interesting. Odd, I'm craving a cigarette.
Posted by Gome on January 15, 2010 at 12:02 am | permalink |
Pursuing happiness makes me feel like I'm happy.
Accepting the results of my decisions and changing things I can't accept makes me feel like I don't have any regrets.
Being fully present and participating in the life I have created by my choices makes me feel fulfilled.
Identifying what makes life feel hard and what makes it feel easy helps me remember that each one is temporary and fleeting.
I'm not perfect… so what? Judge me. I don't make apologies for myself anymore. I learned what I needed to know to realize that my self-worth doesn't come from my job, a man, my clothes, my car, my house or my housekeeping, mothering, daughtering, sistering, best-friending, or even being female.
As I have read your posts on happiness over the past few years, this was the one thing I wanted to give you. The gift of knowing that you are worthy. Not because you are a start-up genius, or because you manage to live semi-normally despite horrific experiences and precarious relationships. You just are, and not doing or doing won't change that.
You sound bored…maybe it's time for your next innovation?
Posted by kristi on January 15, 2010 at 1:49 am | permalink |
I think you're having a [mid-life, or maybe just general] crisis and are busy justifying the things you think are crappy in your life to make yourself feel better.
Posted by mpags on January 15, 2010 at 1:57 am | permalink |
A mid-life crisis. That's an interesting proposition. Can one get stuck in those for years? I think I am. ;)
Posted by Maureen Sharib on January 15, 2010 at 7:20 am | permalink |
I agree in this way: fulfillment is where it's AT!
But in my view, this doesn't preclude happiness at all. I'm also an "infovore," although I like social interaction even more.
With those I resonate with, that is, and who value me and treat me that way consistently, as I treat them.
These are my most fulfilling interactions by far, and some of my favorite parts of my day.
But this squares strongly with the research that I've read on what makes people happy.
According to the research, which I can cite, if you like, the top 5 qualities of the happiest people are– Curiosity, Love, Zest, Hope, and Gratitude.
I should know: I gave a talk in Toastmasters on it!!!
Posted by Tina on January 15, 2010 at 3:37 am | permalink |
The first thing I read about happiness research was that six months after a severe disability, people's happiness returned to their normal range. Since I'm disabled, this struck me as interesting. However, it also struck me that here you have a measure ("happiness") that can't distinguish between healthy and severely disabled. No one would pick a severe disability, yet using happiness as a measure, it shouldn't matter.
My opinion of happiness as a goal, and of happiness research, didn't get any better after that.
I've wasted a lot of time in my life, chasing one dream after another. What gripes me isn't that wasted time, it's the times I spent doing nothing, and the times I gave up on projects. Yet I was trying for happiness when I gave up on hard projects, or just enjoyed myself. So I also tend to think happiness is a very short-term measure.
From what I've read of your blog, you are never going to be the kind of happy (i.e. contented) that you want. That kind of midwestern simple-life happiness does not go with the restlessness and ambition that you definitely have. You can't both be content and constantly looking for ways to improve.
I also think you are fairly status conscious — both in wanting to lead an ambitious life, and in wanting to compare yourself to other ambitious, interesting people. That's also incompatible with contentment.
Finally, although people with Asperger's don't want to call themselves disabled, take it from a disabled person (wheelchair), you are. Your list of problems, from innumeracy to social blindness of various types, is formidable. I'd rather deal with many of my physical problems than any of your mental ones. So you are functioning at a very high level despite severe handicaps. Give yourself some credit!
Posted by MichaelG on January 15, 2010 at 4:23 am | permalink |
I absolutely agree. Sometimes a "happy" life is just wishful thinking. You've got to keep it interesting. I love your plan!
Liz
jobmatch.socialgo.com/
Posted by Liz on January 15, 2010 at 4:33 am | permalink |
isn't life about balance? if you think of happiness as a high and you keep chasing that fix won't that move your satisfaction threshold ever upwards? not that people shouldn't strive for happiness but maybe having those high highs could also yield low lows. some are quite happy to take an emotional rollercoaster ride through life whereas others might prefer things to be relatively basic. ultimately it could all depend on individual preference and deciding on what standards to gauge oneself in comparison to peers or society, if at all.
Posted by brendan on January 15, 2010 at 5:56 am | permalink |
Penelope,
I enjoy reading your blog and find myself fascinated by your posts regarding Aspergers. In fact, I rented Adam (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1185836/) the other day and thought of you. It's a romantic comedy in which the titular character has Aspergers and his romantic interest does not. I think I heard somewhere that those with Aspergers sometimes have difficulties understanding movies, but if that's not as much a problem for you, you should definitely check this movie out.
Posted by Elisabeth on January 15, 2010 at 6:28 am | permalink |
Great. I'm really glad you posted this. I cannot follow movies because of deficits I have that are common among people who have Asperger's Syndrome.
Most movies are dependent on
1. Recognizing characters by differences in their faces. This is very hard for me. I mix up who is who.
2. Recognizing plot turns on non-verbal cues. Here's a great example (Warning: I'm going to sort-of spoil the movie The Reader). The Reader requires you to understand that in a moment where one character simply looks at another character the movie watcher understands that one character cannot read. I did not understand that. (I actually still have no idea how other people understood it.) So I watched a whole movie about reading thinking both lead characters were literate.
So. I don't watch movies unless I can watch with someone who can tell me what's going on every five minutes. And, at this point in my life, there is no one left who knows me well who will watch a movie with me.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 15, 2010 at 9:57 am | permalink |
This is a really, really interesting component to throw into all the talk abt social media these days -do the social mediasts get it that there's a percentage of the population that has no hope of ever getting what they're trying to say???
Posted by Maureen Sharib on January 15, 2010 at 10:03 am | permalink |
I'm not buying this
"I mix up who is who."
Really? You can't tell Will Smith from Brad Pitt?
I go to the movies with a guy with Apergers all the time. He can tell actors apart. He's not great on subtext, but neither are most American filmmakers, so it works out fine.
I wonder if you can't sit in a theater and pay attention to just one thing at a time.
Do you like live theater? Can you tell those actors apart?
Or is there a problem with sitting and not talking? Do you have to verbalize while you watch TV or a movie?
Posted by Belinda Gomez on January 18, 2010 at 6:07 pm | permalink |
Your move to Madison was specifically about finding happiness. Now you conclude that it's Hicksville. You know every statistic about happiness, but you still don't get it. Because great shopping and perfect eyebrows are in your happiness equation. What you call "complacent" others call "contentment" or "acceptance". It's internal. Where you live is irrelevant.
Posted by Brad on January 15, 2010 at 6:29 am | permalink |
Amen. It has occurred to me more than once reading the various posts about happiness in this blog that if a person is unable to find a hairstylist that meets their standards in a city of 230,000 people, is it any surprise that they have trouble being happy?
As a couple of other commenters have mentioned, I'd argue that there's a big difference between "complacent" and "contented." But I'll agree with you that to a large degree, for someone all of whose basic needs are accounted for, being happy is a decision that you make, not something that happens to you.
Posted by Joe on January 15, 2010 at 6:51 am | permalink |
People want an "interesting" life because they think that will make them happy. if I am more interesting and have lost of cool experiences, people will like me more and I'll be happy about that. I think that is the logic behind it. I do believe all people (all living things, really) just want to be happy, or at least content. The quickest way to it is to help other people be happy and stop focusing on your self. That's about all there is to it!
Posted by Liz on January 15, 2010 at 7:34 am | permalink |
People want an "interesting" life because they think that will make them happy. If I am more interesting and have lots of cool experiences, people will like me more and I'll be happy about that. I think that is the logic behind it. I do believe all people (all living things, really) just want to be happy, or at least content and not unhappy or suffering. The quickest way to be happy is to help other people be happy and stop focusing on your self. That's about all there is to it!
Posted by Liz on January 15, 2010 at 7:35 am | permalink |
I´ve scanned through some of the posts and must say that I too, disagree with how you equate happiness and complacency. I also think your knock on religion was malinformed, especially if you don´t know the long history and details of a religion like Catholicism, which possesses the intellectual infrastructure to respond rapidly to all social phenomena and scientific developments but is always painted as fanatical and unsophisticated by the media.
Anyway, I was hoping that you could give us more information, perhaps in a separate post, about life in New York. I have lived in Rio for de Janeiro for a year and life is HARD here. I´m willing to guess it is harder than in New York. I agree with the second poster who said that living abroad provides a challenge. This challenge makes life in the U.S. seem easier. Anyway, I was really intrigued by your discussion of happiness as relates to a place like Madison, WI (I´m originally from Minneapolis, another limited town) versus New York City. I was also intrigued by your discussion of salary and motherhood and life in New York being difficult, and how it affected your happiness. Could you please expand or give more information about why daily life in New York is hard, how you dealt with the idea of "happiness" there, and just about what interesting choices you felt you had there? Please let me know!
Posted by B on January 15, 2010 at 7:38 am | permalink |
The rambling post nicely conveyed you are lost, looking for direction and meaning in life.
Happiness is not equal to complacency and acceptance of what you have. It's a state of mind. I do believe that people are not happy or unhappy: they choose what they want to be.
Why does NY look more interesting? All its opportunities are a perfect fit with our innate human desire for freedom. Having the possibility to make all those choices is highly valued by many.
Posted by Yves on January 15, 2010 at 7:44 am | permalink |
I think the title of this post could have been “Do you overthink happiness?”
I live in Mexico, where a lot of tourists converge with locals, and from my vantage point as manager of a hotel, I hear so many city dwellers say with awe: “The people here seem so happy and yet they have so little.” They say this, because the locals live differently from how the visitors live. There may be two families crammed into a small, covered space with hammocks strung from wall to wall and kids running around with dirt on their faces.
But they are all smiling, so they are all happy. Right?
Well, is ignorance bliss?
It can be. But these locals see evidence of how the other half lives, because the other half comes wearing nice clothing and with coiffed hair and they can afford to rent golf carts and stay in high rises and go out to eat. So, it is not necessarily that the ones smiling are ignorant; they have perhaps just not thought about anything beyond the fact that they are alive and have people that they love around them.
Complacency is not going to make you happy, though, Penelope, because you know better, just like those tourists in Mexico think they know better. They know what they have and they think that if that were taken away from them, they would not be happy. Why? Maybe because it was taken away. They did not give it up willingly. Thus they had no control. But if it did happen to them, they would have the choice to ask, “Why me?” and do nothing, except feel like crap, or they could ask, “What am I going to do to get out of this situation and bring it back to how it was?”
And I bet that they would feel better already just by putting the outcome in their own hands. Then imagine how they would feel when they did get back to how they were. It would mean so much more than it did the first time.
You’ve talked about things like breaking To Do lists down to make them more manageable. You’ve talked about the locus of control, and how a feeling of being controlled from the inside, rather than letting external factors control you, can lead to happiness. I think you have all the tools you need. You just need to use them. Do you feel like you have control in your life? If not, how can you get some?
You can do this, because being happy does not have to mean that you give up interesting. If interesting pleases you, then it makes you happy. What’s wrong with that? Make a choice and stick to it. That will help make you happy.
Finally: why is everyone saying IMO? What does that mean?
Posted by Margaret on January 15, 2010 at 8:01 am | permalink |
And um, sorry. I didn't mean to be mean by suggesting you make a choice and stick with it, because I realized after I said it that making choices is part of the problem here but have you ever tried starting with easy ones? Like, you could order grouper instead of salmon, or pick up the first Power Bar that is not vanilla or chocolate, and don't worry about whether or not you're going to like it until you've tried it. Then, if you don't like it, you can decide what to do about your choice after you've made it, not before.
Posted by Margaret on January 15, 2010 at 8:42 am | permalink |
The last thing I'd have expect on this blog is navel-gazing. But there is is. Back in the 1960s I read a book by A. Alvarez called The Savage God: A Study of Suicide. Its last chapter was a description of Alvarez' own "failed" effort on Christmas night 1960. He came around to the idea that many of us buy into the Hollywood vision of happy all the time, and that the pursuit of happiness itself is an invitation to disillusionment or worse. Finally he suggested that letting go of wondering whether one is happy is the beginning of true happiness, nonconceptual happiness, life on life's terms.
Posted by Ken Wolman on January 15, 2010 at 8:09 am | permalink |
As a fellow Madisonian, I have no urge to argue with you. I agree with most things you've said about Wisconsin, but I'm not quite the maximizer you are.
I think I'm concerned with happiness in most parts of my life, but not all. In my passion, photography, I'm more of an optimizer/maximizer. I'm not interested in photography because it's "fun" or makes me happy, although at times it certainly is fun and makes me happy. But I'm interested in pushing myself artistically, getting my work seen, connecting with people, and advancing myself. To do that in all areas of my life seems exhausting and unnecessary. But perhaps that attitude is exactly what landed me in Madison.
Posted by Chris Norris on January 15, 2010 at 8:11 am | permalink |
I never thought about it this way, so thanks for the post. I think you have a point here about choices and interesting and that interesting often means more challenging and therefore not easy/happy all the time.
"This makes me think that people put a higher premium on choices, because choices make life more interesting."
I'd like to see what my friends think about this idea. I think I'll write about it on my blog and link back to you.
Posted by H to the Izzo on January 15, 2010 at 8:23 am | permalink |
I never thought about it this way, so thanks for the post.
I think you have a good point about how interesting often means challenging and that might not be the same as easy/happy.
"This makes me think that people put a higher premium on choices, because choices make life more interesting."
I'd like to know what my friends think about this idea. I'll probably write a post about this idea and link back to you.
Posted by H to the Izzo on January 15, 2010 at 8:26 am | permalink |
Happiness seems to be a bit like a skittish cat, in that the more you chase it the more it hides. I've found it works a lot better to do things I'm interested in, everything from knitting to talking with my boyfriend to strategizing on how to make a meaningful contribution to human culture. Then the cat can and does come curl up in my lap.
There are more than a few levels of happiness. One is a sensory thing, felt after you've been in a good flow state for a while, engaging yourself on all cylinders and feeling the power that's inherent in your own mind and body. Then there's what I guess you are calling fulfillment, which is a broader sense of being pleased with where you are in life. Broad strokes, you are growing and contributing and you feel good about it.
Couldn't agree more with theWiz and other commenters above that happiness itself is not and really can't be the goal — happiness is a by-product of creating the life you want and contributing the way you think is most meaningful. There's been such a focus in the blogosphere about pursuing happiness and getting happier and it strikes me as pretty ego-centric and self-absorbed. Really, in the grand scheme of things, how important my happiness? Far more important is the contribution I choose to make with my limited time in this body.
Posted by Madgeylou (that's me!) on January 15, 2010 at 8:44 am | permalink |
It seems to me that right now, you do not seem to be particularly interested OR happy. I know that you can list the specific reasons why you moved to Wisconsin, it was a "good on paper" decision. But did you move there because you WANTED to, or because it was the best decision? Madison offers many choices that New York does not… for instance, would you have had the choice to date a farmer who lived outside the city while in New York? You probably would not have had that option, yet in WI it has brought joy and love to your life. I think you should focus on the choices you DO have, versus the choices you don't. And if you need good shopping or eyebrows, Chicago is a short ride away.
Posted by Sarah on January 15, 2010 at 8:54 am | permalink |
What about focusing on excitement vs. happiness? Or excitement instead of happiness. Some people say that they are synonymes. If you are excited about life, you are happy. Do you think being interessed in things and being excited (about things) correlate? Maybe they are the same thing?
Posted by Katherine on January 15, 2010 at 9:44 am | permalink |
A post from another blog today seemed relevant to this conversation: http://www.designspongeonline.com/2010/01/small-measures-with-ashley-the-art-of-loafing.html
Others have written better on this subject than I can, but modern society has trained us to resist idleness. I remember as a young man, it didn't trouble me to just sit and think for extended periods; now, I get restless if a web page takes more than 5 seconds to load. This is not good.
Posted by Joe on January 15, 2010 at 9:44 am | permalink |
Words that should never be allowed in an interesting world: nice, good, fine.
I've always maintained there are two types of people in this world: those that ask why, and of course those that don't. Those who accept are happy, those that aren't are in the pursuit of happiness.
I'm with you Penelope, interesting trumps happy every time.
-Billy
Posted by Billy on January 15, 2010 at 9:54 am | permalink |
Several people have asked how should we define being happy. Matthew Kelly, author of "Perfectly Yourself: 9 Lessons for Enduring Happiness", notes that, “Happiness is a feeling at home with ourselves, with who we are, where we are, and what we are doing. I suspect that if we can foster that feeling of being at home within ourselves, the rest is just details. Only then do we come to the stunning realization that: Anything or anyone that does not bring you alive is too small for you.”
I thought this was a great quote and relivent to the discussion.
Posted by Michelle on January 15, 2010 at 9:57 am | permalink |
I love the feeling of processing lots of information (frequently over the internet), sometimes to my detriment of socializing with other people. I think knowing a lot and learning a lot make me happy. But I don't think I have Asperger's.
Posted by Naomi on January 15, 2010 at 10:07 am | permalink |
I find happiness pretty elusive. So elusive, in fact, that I realized I don't know anything about life and happiness whatsoever. In an act of desperation, I followed some advice in a horoscope that happened to work out pretty well. Now I'm following my horoscope's directions every day, and blogging about it at http://jillpr.wordpress.com .
I'll let you know if that turns out to be the true path to happiness.
Posted by Jill on January 15, 2010 at 10:09 am | permalink |
In my graduate research on positive psychology, I've looked at the quest for happiness closely. I don't think there is a choice between seeking an interesting vs. happy life. I believe one begets the other.
People who report having interesting lives have higher level of engagement and flow. The more often we are completely focused on our work to the point where time stops (flow), the happier we are.
Highly engaged and interested people are considered "autotelic", and are typically measured as far happier than non-autotelic individuals. I would bet that this is the camp you fall in. My advice to you is to accept your info-hoarding as part of what makes you feel fulfilled and seek out like-minded people.
Don't fight it.. It's actually a good thing.
Posted by Caren magill on January 15, 2010 at 10:11 am | permalink |
Lately I 'm thinking that happiness is relative to the last moment one asses their situation. If you have ten million dollars and lost eight million you most likely "believe" your situation to be greatly diminished and "feel" unhappy. Having one million and Acquiring or earning another million would presumably feel great. It's all relative, Yes? No?
I can speak from experience although It was never ten million.
Richard Sher
.
Posted by Richard Sher on January 15, 2010 at 10:12 am | permalink |
I was thinking about just this thing last night when I couldn't sleep – but then I think about it all the time. How do we make a meaningful life so we want to get out of bed in the morning? What allows us to feel we are really alive? That's what people want – and to be loved, to feel loved. In my own life, I have to balance my desire to create an interesting life with being an hungry ghost: always on the look out for the new and better rather than enjoying what's here. It's a tricky balance. In general though, happiness as a word has always made me do the head tilting "Huh?" thing as in "Why would I work for that? Rather work for being alive, engaged, entranced curious. Thanks for another truly interesting post.
Posted by Jennifer Louden on January 15, 2010 at 10:14 am | permalink |
A great post, but asking a new yorker if they are happy is like asking a star athlete if she is too hurt to play, you will get the answer they want to tell you.
I don't believe that New Yorkers are less happy than anywhere else. I do believe that they like to tell you what a chore it is to live in the city. They love to tell you how small their apartment is, how much they money they make and that it is not enough to live in the city. They love to tell you about the weirdos they encounter on the subway, crazy taxi rides and how the tourists ruin the city. They love it. The people that aren't happy there leave, just like every other city.
Human psychology is far to complex to define happy. Those that say they are happy are written off as crazy and those that aren't happy claim it is unattainable. Everyone needs to get over themselves.
Posted by Rich on January 15, 2010 at 10:24 am | permalink |
Penelope,
I think you have a fascinating blog, but honestly can you please quit the New York hate. I get it. You hated your time there. Move on!! I lived in Boston and hated it for the time I lived there, but I unless I am asked directly I don't offer up my opinion about the place. Sometimes I think it takes away from your blog and your ability to convey your ideas. I have not read the comments to this post, nor will I read the comments that come after this one, but I just wanted to say that. Good luck to you, and may you find peace about your past.
Posted by T Davis-Merchant on January 15, 2010 at 10:24 am | permalink |
"Because I think knowing if we are happy would require knowing the meaning of life, or the ultimate goal, or the key to the world, or something that…"
Wow. That's a pretty high standard for happiness. It sounds more like you're fed up with the word and all the cultural baggage that comes with it. I am happy a lot, and unhappy a lot, and I'm okay with that. I like it, actually. I don't think that makes me a "happy" person, but we are all so much more than that, don't you think?
Posted by Paula Duarte on January 15, 2010 at 10:44 am | permalink |
Penelope — I disagree with so much you said here! First, I believe that happiness does exist. It is a feeling of contentment or fulfillment. It does not mean that you are no longer interesting (or interested), but I think as Tyler says fulfilled. You say that people who value choices never defend their choices, that's not true. You are defending your choices here and you say that you value choices/opportunties over happiness. The reason you perceive that people who are happy have to defend their lifestyle is because they are being attacked by people (like you!) who are attacking their decision to be happy. People who are unhappy/unfulfilled are often trying to make others unhappy. Even when you are happy, it doesn't mean that life is without challenges & frustrations, but it does mean that you are better able to weather those challenges & frustrations because at the core of your life you know you have good things happening. You sound very unhappy to me, and yet you seem to crave happiness and fulfillment. I wish you luk in finding whatever it is you are looking for to have a happy & fulfilling life. And just because you're happy doesn't mean that you're not interesting.
Posted by Tina Esparza-Luna on January 15, 2010 at 10:47 am | permalink |
I never went looking for information on how to be happy until I fell into a deeply unhappy well and found I couldn't get out by myself. Suddenly people writing and talking about how to be happy was very interesting. It's how I found this blog. Being an infovore, I gathered all this information. It didn't get me out of my depression but it gave me something to do while I was working on the root causes. Now I find I'm interested in other things. I'm calling it progress.
Posted by Lisa on January 15, 2010 at 10:48 am | permalink |
I think that "acting" like you are happy is a way to make others like you and simply getting along with others can make your life easier in a way. My grandmother, who grew up in the Depression, shared this verse she learned from her mother: "It's easy to be happy when life rolls along like a song. But it's the girl who's worthwhile who will smile when everything goes wrong."
Posted by Corrie on January 15, 2010 at 11:17 am | permalink |
Be careful with this one. I'm just starting to realize all the damage I've done acting like I'm happy when I'm not.
Posted by Lisa on January 15, 2010 at 1:06 pm | permalink |
Agree entirely on the question of happiness. I think happiness is a unicorn – chasing after it will always fail, but if you wait quietly patiently and don't think about it, it may yet come and lay its head on your lap. Keeping busy and staying interested will at least stave off the black dog, which is much more than half the battle.
Disagree violently with the assertion "people who are focused on information (infovores, as Tyler calls them) but not on face-to-face social interaction can flourish in an information economy."
The IT business is full of socially dysfunctional people who are focused on information. Their jobs have been exported to countries where they can be done far more cheaply. They are most assuredly not flourishing. This is the fantasy of symbolic analysts that we were fed in the 90s, and it's as false now as it was then. It turns out (see link above) that what matters is not your skills of symbolic analysis/information processing, but your social connections.
Posted by Doug K on January 15, 2010 at 11:33 am | permalink |
I love your definition of an interesting life. Being interesting to other people is exactly the sort of behavior society places a premium on yet those of us with Aspergers have so much difficulty with. An interested fulfilled through information consumption appeals very much to me! But then I'm an engineer so maybe I'm biased :-).
Posted by Andrew on January 15, 2010 at 11:36 am | permalink |
Two more ponderables on happiness:
Dr. Seligman of the Authentic Happiness site in one of his books, quotes Wittgenstein on his deathbed, "tell them I've had a wonderful life." Wittgenstein was famously morose and miserable, entertained suicidal thoughts on most days of the week: but also worked continuously on what interested him.
In an interview on the Harvard study the researcher concludes:
"In an interview in the March 2008 newsletter to the Grant Study subjects, Vaillant was asked, “What have you learned from the Grant Study men?” Vaillant’s response: “That the only thing that really matters in life are your relationships to other people.”
Posted by Doug K on January 15, 2010 at 12:00 pm | permalink |
Hmm, I think you always succeed in being interesting. Speaking of which, I think you have a very interesting point. I've read Seligman and I've read "The Paradox of Choice" and I've read a bit of everything. Because I was struggling with my own depression. Happiness is a state of mind. It comes from the bigger picture questions, of doing the big things that satisfy you on a very core level. So says the woman who's unemployed, separated, and poor but is very happy to be home in NYC again with friends and family after 10 years of following her ex around and is in school and pursuing job opps to do exactly what she has wanted to do since 2001. Go figure.
Posted by Mira on January 15, 2010 at 12:28 pm | permalink |
Your conception of happiness makes it hard for me to believe that you've spent the the last three years "enthralled and ensconced" in positive psychology research. Seligman and others reference the "meaningful life"–roughly equivalent, in my opinion, to Socrates' definition of "the good life"–all the time, and that is totally inconsistent with your idea of the pursuit of happiness being vacuous.
Posted by Ben on January 15, 2010 at 12:42 pm | permalink |
I grew up here in WI, but moved to Lake of the Ozarks, MO for 3 years-but now I'm back. I left everything here…my good job, my family, my friends which was also considered my 'support group'. I LOVED it in Missouri…after moving back I was devestated for quite some time. Like Penelope was saying: people that have lived in WI all their life are so content here, but they have no idea what they are missing out on. No one here (even though they are so close to me) do not understand why I loved it there so much more. All of my family on my mom and dad's side all live within a 15 mile radius of each other and they all just love it. Me on the other hand, I could care less. They want nothing more than their family close by, which isn't a bad thing-but in the back of my mind I can't help but wonder what else is out there….I have to be happier and able to succeed some place else? I'm torn, I would love to move back-but it is my 2-year old daughter that keeps me here. If I took her away from my family, I swear they would never forgive me. Back to the topic: there are so many more choices when you go elsewhere…WI in my opinion is mediocre and at ease here and really have no reason to "try something new". Me….I'm all about it!!!
Posted by Taryn on January 15, 2010 at 1:12 pm | permalink |
It's amusing to me because I originally found your blog from Gretche's Happiness Project. I got bored with her blog after a few months and I'm still reading yours several years later!
Posted by Carol on January 15, 2010 at 1:18 pm | permalink |
I am late in the comments, hoping someone actually ("hi, Penelope!") reads this far…but I feel a little better knowing that so many others find it hard to put a finger on "happy". There are only so many things we can focus on at one time…so I liked best the comment that we should live in the present and try to stop overanalyzing.
I doubt that I have ever been happy. I remember writing suicidal notes to myself (throwing them out after writing) even as a young child (age 10?). I have also dealt with a tragedy of sorts and more stuff that's personal. We 'sufferers' are not ill, just challenged more than the cheesemakers, I believe.
Penelope, you are strong! YOU ROCK!
Posted by Holly on January 15, 2010 at 1:20 pm | permalink |
The question your raise seems made for a maximizer. It's almost like, "Wait a minute… what if there is something BETTER than happiness?" Because, you know, us maximizers always have to get to the best. Instead of being content in the moment. The irreparable discontent of a maximizer is one of my most defining features, but I've also begun to realize how exhausting it is to me and those around me.
So I've been trying to, for lack of a better description, be zen. I certainly think there is something to what you are saying– I often ended my review of the psych literature out there wondering if "satisfaction" is a unit we needed to look at separately from "happiness," since it's the difficult tasks that cause a great deal of unhappiness but bring the most satisfaction in the end– but I am trying to train myself to stop dissecting my decisions on every front and to go with what feels good/right in the moment. The other day my mother asked me why I was acting so differently (the hamster wheel in my head wasn't spinning as visibly as usual) and I explained that I was, you know, just trying to go with the flow for a little bit. Reading the Tao Te Ching. All that good stuff. Her unimpressed response: "Oh. Can't you just start being a dissatisfied American again?"
Posted by Jana on January 15, 2010 at 1:43 pm | permalink |