Here is a map of where all the single men are:
http://creativeclass.typepad.com/thecreativityexchange/2007/04/the_singles_map.html
I do not live near any single men. Well, I sort of do. My divorce lawyer has set me up with a few men in my hometown, Madison, Wisconsin. He told me that I am too focused on my work life. I need to get my personal life in order.
Here's how things went:
One guy was a little chunky in the middle, but he is a real estate mogul. I know, you're thinking, real estate mogul, in Wisconsin? Are there any? There are a few. I mean, Lake Michigan is a nice place in the summer, and also, someone's gotta own the real estate around the Green Bay Packers stadium. And besides, you can invest in real estate from any state, really.
So I went out with the real estate guy. He said right away that he wants to diversify, and I thought right away that I'd get him to fund my company. But before I could move in for the kill, I started falling for him. Which was very bad because I did not have my dating pitch set. Only my company pitch. And, he actually said to me, "You need a better pitch." About my marriage. He said that. He said I need to explain in a quick way what happened with the marriage.
I told him that I think that my husband probably has Asperger syndrome, and, hell, probably I do, too. And we are the marriage of varying degrees of social awkwardness. I told him that's why I think our marriage fell apart.
That did not go well.
Fortunately, in a town like Madison, all the rich guys go to the same divorce lawyer, so my lawyer had another idea. A furniture store owner.
I was like, "DUH! Do you not see my income in these divorce papers? I cannot date a furniture salesman because maybe I'll fall in love and marry him and he'll stop working and then divorce me and I'll be supporting two men for the rest of my life and still not be having sex."
The divorce lawyer is a guy who can withstand many hysterical fits in one day probably because he charges hourly for them but also because it comes with the territory when you are helping people get through the worst time in their lives and they need someone to blame for it. So he said, "It's not just furniture. He owns every furniture store in the state."
I said I'd consider it. And while I was waiting for the divorce negotiations to kick into high gear, I noticed that all furniture delivery trucks have the guy's name on them. Like there is a furniture monopoly in Madison or something.
So I called him. And then I got this idea.
I had this radio show in Madison but I didn't like doing it because it really doesn't help my blog. So I stopped doing it because local radio is local and internet is not local. But then I thought that I could get this guy to give me a new dining room set if I could say his name on the radio during my show. Like, product placement. And then I started fantasizing about my dates with him and at the end of a great night of marketing discussions and drunk flirting, we would end up putting great furniture inside a truck with his name on it and drive it to my house.
That's the problem with all my dating. I can't stop letting my mind turn it into a business transaction. I thought for a second that I had changed my ways when I finally got a guy into bed. After missing just about every cue he gave me over the course of almost two days. So there we were in bed, but I realized that he's got all this great information about recruiting, and my company, which is actually in recruiting, could benefit from that.
So I asked him how candidates differentiate themselves.
He said, What?
Then he said that the best candidates never let anyone know they are looking. They just let people know what they're great at.
We talked and then I was happy that I had something to write about and I fell asleep in his arms.
This is how I know I better move to a place that has more single men. Because look, I've gone through three already and not been able to stay focused on the non-work part of things. I need more chances to figure out how to separate my work life and my personal life. I am not totally sure how to do it.
Am I the only woman with this problem? Don't most women spend the majority of their time with men in a work situation? And don't most women train themselves to not do dating when it's time to do work? So how do we retrain ourselves? I am so good at figuring out how to do business with every guy I meet. How does this translate on a date?










If more marriages were run likes businesses, we'd have fewer divorces. The best is when two self employed spouses can help each other with strategic advice and vision, and then blow off steam in bed.
Actually bed is the worst place; bed is for sleep. Make love on the floor. Memory foam pad full size for just that purpose of love. calico coverlet.
Posted by Alan Wilensky on 01/23/2009 at 09:46am | permalink | Reply to this comment
They did a study of women and asked women what they really wanted to do in bed. Most women really would like to get more SLEEP when they are in bed.
This is probably tied to the rush-rush-rush overstressed lifestyle that most women live. I don't know how women who are wives and mothers, as well as work outside the home, do everything they do.
Posted by Angela on 01/25/2009 at 06:50pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
When you stop looking at your work life to supply your identity, your security, your control, your fun and your sense of belonging — you'll begin to build a satisfying, distinct personal life.
Posted by Joe Fusco on 01/23/2009 at 10:02am | permalink | Reply to this comment
You nailed it. Hopefully, P will take this one to heart…
Posted by Samantha on 01/23/2009 at 11:43am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Man, you people are self-righteous.
Posted by Joyf on 2009-05-10 21:52:46 | (Comments wont nest below this level)
I love what he said about candidates just letting people know what they're great at. Good advice, provided you're able to meet people who can offer you something you'd like to do.
I think I have a similar problem to yours in that I'm constantly networking. As soon as I meet someone new, there's this little filofax in my head that spins until it comes up with something: Tom Smith, builds custom amps. And then out of my mouth: "You're a jazz guitarist? How cool. I know this guy who builds custom amps if you ever needed something . . ."
But I realized at some point that this is less of an effort at networking – although I love to help people out and get people together – and more of an effort to find something in common with the person. That's how women establish rapport in our culture. Once I realized that that's why I did it, I was able to look more objectively at whether the "connection" was really something worth mentioning — and I also was able to listen more so that I would learn more about the person, rather than seize on the first thing I could.
Maybe for you it's as simple as setting conscience boundaries for yourself when you go on dates, and then making yourself stick to them (I will focus on getting to know this person. I will not think about business.). It's like giving yourself permission to relax.
Posted by Angie on 01/23/2009 at 10:07am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I agree that we all have ways of trying to make instant connections. I find that when I meet a new woman, I will compliment her on her shoes/outfit/handbag. I don't consciously do it and I don't lie about liking something but it's one of the best ways I've found to create a "common ground" with a stranger.
Posted by The Office Newb on 01/23/2009 at 04:15pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Can't believe I'm responding to my own comment, but I must because I'm an editor. I meant "conscious", not "conscience." Oy.
Posted by Angie on 01/23/2009 at 10:18pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
try this. instead of figuring out what you can get out of all the guys you go out with, choose to use the time spent with them to appreciate them, their looks, their interests, their values, and what they give back to the world. it means focusing all of your attention on them instead of trying to get equal billing as you would in a business meeting.
i think you'll probably score.
Posted by priscilla on 01/23/2009 at 10:10am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Please, dearest Penelope. Give yourself a break from men. You are a relationship hopper and it is a form of escape from yourself. You need to get get right with who you are before you invite anyone else in.
Your posts are an open book into your soul and it is obvious that you've got issues (as we all do).
Please give yourself a good year at least of not even thinking about dating.
Posted by joe on 01/23/2009 at 10:18am | permalink | Reply to this comment
You know, I completely don't agree with this. One finds out more about themselves in interacting with others. I know the common prescription is "time alone, figuring yourself out" but from experience, that feels like avoidance and one-stop-shopping. Penelope will figure out what is best for her as she does it – through experiencing.
Perhaps I'm sensitive – after a divorce or a relationship break up, people often give the "time to yourself" advice. But reality is this: you learn more about yourself when you are interacting with other people than you ever do sitting on a mountaintop.
Posted by Lane on 01/23/2009 at 11:11am | permalink | Reply to this comment
There's a difference between time alone and time not dating. After I had a bad breakup I made a conscious choice not to date for awhile but I also increased my volunteering, joined a riding class, and began a weekly dinner with friends. I made great friends, learned how to do things I didn't think I could, discovered the careeer area I truly want, and yes, did eventually end up dating a fantastic guy I met at the first friend dinner. I'm glad though that I didn't try to date him when we first met, I had too much else to learn about myself without locking myself into one person.
Posted by Bethany on 2009-01-23 11:51:24 | (Comments wont nest below this level)
You must be an extrovert – in which case, I would say it's good advice for people who are energized by other people, but horrible advice for introverts.
Posted by Katherine on 2009-01-23 12:55:34 | (Comments wont nest below this level)
Judgemental, much? First of all, I don't think P is a relationship hopper, she's dating. Dating is a healthy thing. We all do it. It's normal to want to find a connection with someone beyond the mundane business relationships or friendships. Taking a year off from dating is the worst possible advice anyone can give… obviously the purpose of this article is to find a balance between dating and worklife. Eliminating the dating aspect doesn't seem like balance to me.
Posted by Sean on 01/23/2009 at 01:33pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Actually in response to Katherine (it won't let me nest, sorry!). To be honest, I'm terrified when I meet new people and forcing myself to interact on a social level with new people is one of the hardest tasks I've ever tried. However, I can talk to people when I have a purpose (advice on animals, what food to order, etc) which helps me get over my natural tendency toward shyness. I think it's good to try and scare myself every now and then and not let my nature win. If I don't push past my comfort zone I'll never grow.
Posted by Bethany on 2009-01-23 14:04:21 | (Comments wont nest below this level)
I've been on a no-relationships sequester for the past two months with four more to go. I'm a serial monogamist, so it's been difficult, but very eye-opening. Maybe it's not bad advice to give it a break for a while. I've learned a lot about what I really want and need already, and literally each week I spend alone, the more that evolves and reveals itself to me.
Posted by Holly Hoffman on 01/23/2009 at 02:45pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I soooooooooo agree with Joe. Give yourself some time to heal from the divorce and from the Farmer. I would suggest you spend time with JUST YOU(this may come after work, phone calls, kiddos, and whatever else), but my point is, take some time. And no, I'm not recommending you sit on a mountaintop or isolate yourself, just pull back a little and put the dating/men/"what am I doing wrong" thing on the side burner for a little while.
You deserve the "best" you!
Posted by Helen on 01/23/2009 at 05:25pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
As for separating business and dating, my mom is currently dating her business partner. How's that, huh? ;-)
Posted by D. on 01/23/2009 at 10:24am | permalink | Reply to this comment
LOL – at least I'm not the only woman who does this. You get so in the habit of work that it's hard to break it when it comes time for fun. Autopilot kicks in.
If you figure out how to break, please let the rest of know how you did it!
Posted by KMS on 01/23/2009 at 10:26am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope-
To answer your question, no I do not spend a majority of my time with men in a work situation. I am lucky to have a good balance of female and male friends that I get socialize with frequently. I could easily get wrapped up in my two jobs, volunteering, etc., but I choose to make time for a personal life. I refuse to let my life slip by while I try to get ahead for a company that will probably dump me when I earn too much.
To your other question regarding no dating when it's time to work, I've done that. I would get very focused and wouldn't allow time for dating. But then I would see some female and male executives with no life but work. My mother is like this. I don't want to be like that. So to answer your third question regarding retraining ourselves- you betcha I did. I had to learn how to balance it out. I'm still learning.
My opinion, take more time for yourself and your kids away from work. You'll learn how to just relax and not think of life as a "pitch." Take time to enjoy the present day. It's the only thing that is certain.
I live in Wisconsin, too and this not the best state for singles. However, here's a little bit of hope. I read in the Journal Sentinel last week that in the Milwaukee area there are around 244,000 single people.
Posted by Froggylou2 on 01/23/2009 at 10:33am | permalink | Reply to this comment
"Then he said that the best candidates never let anyone know they are looking. They just let people know what they're great at."
You've got your answer right there (I think you probably know that, though). And I would add, they are also good and finding out what the other person is great at and letting them know.
To focus on relating to men as dates and not as business transactions, you cannot move. The problem is not where you live. If you move to another city, you'll face this problem even more because you'll meet a greater number of business-oriented men.
Perhaps you have a lot going on with your company, your recent divorce, and your family and you don't have space in your head to find another guy endlessly fascinating. That would be okay too.
Why do you want to date? Other than sex, what do you want from it? Maybe getting clearer on that will give you some answers on how to date effectively.
Posted by Joselle on 01/23/2009 at 10:35am | permalink | Reply to this comment
For every moment you settle for hopelessly short-term situations like this, you are not with someone that appreciates your beautiful, sexy, funny, clever, eccentric and quirky being.
Being reminded every time you sit in the dining room for a family meal that you gave away some of your intimacy for that furniture isn't the long-term and strategic thinking I would expect from you.
Your thinking might seem to be effective bartering but little by little you are giving away Penelope far too cheaply. He's thinking wholesale cost, you're thinking retail value.
Posted by That Mike on 01/23/2009 at 10:49am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I have to agree with the commenter upthread. You define yourself with your job. Every aspect of your life HAS to relate, in some way, to your job, and you're brain is making you look for Significant others like you'd look for an employee, what can this person bring to the equation, and not in an emotional way, but in furniture, or money, or business advice.
I understand that running a start up is similar to drinking molten lead, and that when it's your money on the line work never ends. But you need to set limits, boundaries, or at least a closing time. You mentioned in a post that being your own boss means you get to tuck your kids in at night, but after they're tucked in, what are you doing? Are you reading a book for fun, watching some cheesy movie, writing for no one other than yourself, talking on the phone with a friend about random things other than work, or are you right back at the job as soon as you close the kids door.
You need to decompress, your brain is full or work and nothing but work. You haven't let it think about anything BUT work in years, and so it's trained to relate everything you do or think about to work, what else does it have to draw on.
One week, be home in time to feed your kids dinner (not saying you don't feed your kids or anything, but if I just said dinner, you'd eat dinner at 10pm), turn off your cell phone, shut down your e-mail, and just relax, watch TV, read the newspaper other than the business section. Find some part of Penelope that isn't related to work.
Posted by Voice in the Crowd on 01/23/2009 at 11:09am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'm a little confused about exactly what the problem is that you're trying to solve. Is the problem that men lose interest in you? Is the problem that you can't find men you're attracted to beyond getting laid or talking about business? Is the problem that there is no place for a relationship in your life? Is the problem that you don't want a relationship but are using "a relationship" as a tool to get other needs met? You're a businesswoman: treat it like a business problem. What's the problem, what's the goal, what's the plan, what are the metrics, how will you know the plan is working, what will you do when the plan fails, et cetera. When you make statements like, "I need more chances to figure out how to separate my work life and my personal life," I feel like you've answered an irrelevant question for yourself. What makes you think that separating your work life from your personal life is going to solve the funamental problem you're up against, whatever that problem is?
Posted by Greenman2001 on 01/23/2009 at 11:14am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Just the feeling I get from reading this blog post:
I really think that your mind is focused on work because that's the most pressing detail right now. Your divorce is final. You actually have a quality relationship with your ex. Your kids are happy and doing well. The thing that is the least "under control" is the business, and in a way, that relates directly to your feelings of self-worth as a single woman. Right now, your business IS your personal life.
Perhaps instead of listening to everyone saying "take some time away", you need to actually give business MORE time. If it is inserting itself into all aspects of your life, usually that says that you feel as if something is unfinished. Can you go finish it? Can you send the kids to dad's for a weekend and dedicate yourself heart and soul to working on the nagging problem?
I'm not trying to say you don't give your business enough time. I'm trying to say that perhaps it needs a little focused, uninterrupted time on a few issues. And then, maybe it'll stop hijacking the rest of your life. Focus that unsatiated sexual energy at the business for a bit, and it might free up your mind for non-business pursuits.
Just a thought.
Posted by Lane on 01/23/2009 at 11:20am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'm not an editor nor do I have a degree in composition, but…
1) I believe home town is one word (at least according to the boss, it's one word).
2) Shouldn't there be a "be" before having sex in this statement?
"I cannot date a furniture salesman because maybe I'll fall in love and marry him and he'll stop working and then divorce me and I'll be supporting two men for the rest of my life and still not having sex."
3) I don't think you'll find the type of man you're looking for in Madison. So, yes, you should move.
Posted by Jerry on 01/23/2009 at 12:01pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
These are good edits. Thank you. I'm making changes. And I think if #1 and #2 are right, then maybe #3 is too…
–Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on 01/23/2009 at 12:10pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I disagree. I've tried. Moved to a big, blue dot on that map called Austin, and I find that I still have the same issues when it comes to dating (surprise!).
Posted by Angie on 2009-01-23 13:11:36 | (Comments wont nest below this level)
hahahahahahaha.
Posted by jenx67 on 2009-01-23 23:28:52 | (Comments wont nest below this level)
Having been through a divorce and 5 years of dating, I identify with your plight! Dating was just networking and business, even when there was romantic potential.
My favorite is how I helped my techie "boyfriend" find an exec level job by teaching him about SEO. That was what cinched the deal on the first interview. That more than paid for the $400 he spent on my hair that he ended up hating anyway and that I dumped him over. But he's richer for having dated me. Another man said my internet marketing advice improved his business – and he quantified it by how much. Can I use that on a resume??
I went through a phase of dating to get guys to help me with my businesses. Do things for me for free. It worked really well. But I usually ended up doing just as much in return by teaching them things they needed to know.
I also dated successful businessmen who I could rely on even after we dated. I called them for business advice.
My favorite is the millionaire who cried on our first date because he was lonely, and tried to get me to spend the night with him in a sly way. He also asked if I wanted to get married. That was the end of that.
Eventually I decided if I wanted a relationship, I needed to make room. So I started clearing space. Literally and personally. I made friends with women and built a social life with people who cared little about business. When dating didn't go well, they were still there.
Basically you avoid emotional risk when you make it all business. It's safer. But you grow out of it (or at least I did). Then you decide it's worth risking for closeness.
Almost every divorced woman I know dated defensively by hiding behind something. Until they were ready to have real relationships. Usually several years later.
So it's pretty normal. I hope you find funding, good advice, and a great network of successful men because of your dating life. Sounds like you're choosing well, so keep going. Don't limit yourself to locals either. When you travel, set up dates by networking. It's a great way to see a new city. Ever thought of trying internet dating – you'd have hilarious fodder for your blog.
This is already too long.
Janet
Posted by Janet on 01/23/2009 at 12:09pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
See, and I'd say I married defensively by hiding behind something, and got divorced when I was ready to have a real relationship. I just didn't know it at the time. And I relate to helping put all my partners into a better financial space.
I think you have some interesting insights in your comment.
Posted by Lane on 01/23/2009 at 01:44pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Maybe if your dating pattern isn't going well, you need to change the pattern by not dating.
Maybe you need something in your life that's about Penelope and not about work or sex or other people.
Maybe you need something in your life that has nothing to do with Penelope, but is entirely about other people, like feeding the homeless or volunteering for Meals on Wheels.
Maybe you need to move. Maybe you need to stop talking about moving and commit to living where you are as part of the community.
Maybe your divorce lawyer is setting you up because on some level he wants you to get married, get divorced, and provide him with more business.
Mostly, though, maybe you need a new–or at least more complete–source of information. For example, the map shows more men than women in the L.A. area. That wasn't the case as of the last census. Yes, it's been a while since the last census. True. But the reason for a change (if indeed there has been one) is because of birthrates. That's right, in a lot of places there are more men than women. Under the age of 25.
Posted by KateNonymous on 01/23/2009 at 12:21pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
"Then he said that the best candidates never let anyone know they are looking. They just let people know what they're great at." – Best pillow talk line I've heard in a while!
Posted by Frank B on 01/23/2009 at 12:28pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Saw your comment on twitter–I follow you there & was going to DM you but you're not following me. Just wanted to say that I liked this post and forwarded it to a single friend of mine–with a great sense of humor–who has started her own small business.
Posted by Cor on 01/23/2009 at 12:33pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
As harsh as it sounds, there is a great deal of scapegoating going on in your reasons for having unsuccessful dates. The solution isn't to move to where there are more men. If you have already identified that you turn dating into a business transaction, what good will moving do? It won't make your mind think differently. The change will come when you stop identifying yourself by your job. You gave up the radio not because you didn't like it, but because it didn't benefit this site. When you described to the real estate mogul why your marriage didn't work, you didn't say that you two couldn't work things out, you said that Asperger's caused you to be unable to work it out. You asked for business advice post-coitus.
A new location will not be the solution. Whatever is already in your mind will follow you to any place you visit. The only way to move forward is to change your thinking. Turn off the computer for a day, take a bubble bath and read a book for pleasure, go to a museum and enjoy the artwork (turn off your phone first!). There is so much more you can do to improve your situation than to immediately escape. Try that first.
Posted by Kera on 01/23/2009 at 12:36pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
My brother is single, around your age, and lives in Madison. But he's a weirdo. And far from rich.
It's tough anywhere to find singles over 40 who don't have issues. Maybe you need to try a Demi-Ashton thing.
Posted by Dan on 01/23/2009 at 12:46pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope- maybe change isn't the answer. Perhaps it's just finding the person who also approaches every situation in life with the potential for business. There's nothing wrong with that! In fact, my boyfriend and I work together well because we approach our life together from a business perspective, and we each have strengths that the other doesn't have. So he helps me with the economic side of business, and I help him market himself at work toward promotions and raises.
It's not you, it's men. I know that's a crap thing to say, but hey, they're total pigs so just find a clean, nice pig who lets you be who you want to be.
Posted by Victoria on 01/23/2009 at 12:46pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Exactly. What you should do is go out on the schmooze circuit — give talks at exec conferences, etc. — and find some cute, young, single Silicon Valley venture capitalist or angel investor (or have Guy Kawasaki fix you up. Then start a long-distance relationship both enhances & leaves you plenty of time for your business.
As for the take a year off stuff: That's what I did after my big break up(s). I found that all that introspection led me to kinda lose my social skills. Once I was ready to date again, it was really hard (whereas when I first broke up, there were LOTS of guys interviewing for the new boyfriend job.)
Posted by kaycee on 01/23/2009 at 02:07pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Reason #546 why I heart NYC – my chances of meeting a great single girl greatly improves!
I hate to say it, but I think demographics really do play an important role here. I have to believe that your luck would greatly improve if your "single men dating pool" is widened. You may like living in the Cheese State, but your love life may be asking you to try settling elsewhere for awhile and see what happens. And if moving isn't an option due to your business, well then try making a little "you time" and do some traveling. Hell, you could even make it business travel, snag a man and pack him in your bag for the ride home.
And if you meet Mr. Right somewhere else, you could always talk him into moving back to Wisconsin with you! Or as I said above, just stuff him in your carry-on bag and take him against his will. That probably works too. :)
Whatever you choose to do, I wish you luck!
Posted by David on 01/23/2009 at 12:50pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Who says you need to separate your work life from your personal life? You're passionate about your work. Why not stop trying to change your dating style and embrace it? There are plenty of wonderful and successful guys out there who'd get a kick out of discussing spreadsheets between the sheets. Look for one of those. If you don't, chances are that you'll keep dating guys you're not really compatible with and soon find yourself sabotaging yet another mediocre relationship.
The problem with moving to a different location is that you can't leave the part of you behind that caused the initial problem.
Look into dating a guy who is in the initial stages of building something huge. You'll probably have more to talk/fight about than you would with some dude who has already made his name.
But you won't do that, will you? =)
Posted by Seth Simonds on 01/23/2009 at 12:53pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
P, when its the right guy you will know it…turn off the phone/blackberry in your mind while your dating…the rest will work out…you don't need any advise (even mine!)…follow your heart…
M
Posted by Mark F. on 01/23/2009 at 12:55pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This isn't complex. Or even about "who you are" and "time for yourself" and certainly not about "healing". Leave those discussions to women with more self help books than sense. It's easy. And you'll have to trust me because I'm 22 and 3/4 and am going on 3 dates this weekend. Actually, I date more than anyone I know who isn't paid for it. I just like first dates and get asked on lots of second, third and fourth ones. So listen and try this:
Date guys who can't help you. I'm in marketing for luxury fashion. I never date guys in advertising, marketing, PR, or even really cpg execs. If I date them, they will be older and I will spend tons of time asking them for advice about work, job leads, trouble shooting, and where the market's headed. That's not romantic.
So I date doctors, lawyers, bankers, hedge fund guys, and architects. They're smart, funny, sexy…whatever. Exactly what I want, need and expect from a guy. And none of them are poor. But they're also not so rich that they can fund my bugeroning start up idea, and they're not in my field so they can't offer me advice(I once dated an entreprenuer…all pillow talk was business talk.). I think this will work for you too. Date doctors and scientists. You have no (work)use for them. I promise.
Posted by sarah on 01/23/2009 at 12:58pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I met a guy for sushi last night. He was young, attractive, owns his own business & a beachfront condo. By the end of it, I had a gig running a social media campaign for a community organization he heads. And I talked him into starting his own blog. So, I understand.
I suppose the trick is to find guys who are turned on by a woman's business passion, not emasculated by it. And I know they exist. A guy friend of mine told me he had no attraction to a girl who was after him for months, until he heard her chewing out one of her employees on her cell phone. They've been dating ever since.
Posted by Holly Hoffman on 01/23/2009 at 01:04pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Is your transparency for real or is it shock jockeying? Either way, I think you're telling the truth, in which case, I need to tell you that dates grow on trees.
Dating is a disastrous. Have you read I Kissed Dating Goodbye or Choosing God's Best? They're available from Amazon. Don't you just hate it when people recommend books for how to make your life perfect? Ha!
Have you heard the story of Rebekah? She was chosen to be Isaac's wife by Abraham's servant. The reason? Because she proved to be a hard worker – willing to draw water from the well for a thirsty, tired stranger. Who knows where all your hard work will lead you?
Posted by jenx67 on 01/23/2009 at 01:09pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Ambitious, successful people are naturally driven to make partnerships with people who benefit them the most. The distinction between 'job' and 'personal life' works well for people who don't run startups in this economy– their survival probably doesn't depend on the value they create with every interaction.
When you're no longer fighting for the survival of your company, you'll have more brain power to focus on dating.
Posted by Olivia on 01/23/2009 at 01:10pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This whole discussion is very creepy. There is a word for people who have sex in return for monetary gain or its equivalent (a houseful of furniture, for instance). Ugh!
Posted by Jim C. on 01/23/2009 at 01:10pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, as long as the primary focus of your writing is the connection between life and work, I don't think you will be able to separate the two. I imagine that after writing hundreds of posts and having the pressure to write new posts multiple times per week, you must be constantly be analyzing your new experiences as they're happening within the context of "life" = "career" = "translate to advice".
I don't think this is a bad thing. Perhaps it's just the curse of a writer that has built a niche personal brand that they reflect outward, while never being able to escape it inwardly.
We see your brand as Life and Careers, but to you it's your life viewed through a career lens (or else you'd have nothing to write about!). So you can't escape it and please don't try because I love reading about it and learning from you.
Posted by Missa on 01/23/2009 at 01:10pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
As a man who enjoys mild aspergers, it was of a great help to me to learn there are rules and patterns to dating. Focusing on these rules helps keep that part of my mind busy, and thus happy.
The rules are different for women and men, and they'll sound terribly cliche, but I had to start with the basics.
I can't tell you what your rules will be, but I'll share a few of mine. Note that they're masculine in nature; I don't know what similar rules would be for women.
1. If a woman shares a problem, don't try to fix it. Instead, show her she is desired or loved despite the problem. Flirt, hug, or admire in response to a woman sharing a problem.
2. Dating is part performance, part relaxation. When initiating contact, perform a little – show off cleverness, sensuality, or humor. Once you're together, reveal more about yourself. When you first meet, it will be mostly performance. The third date should only include perhaps 30 minutes.
3. Interrupt cyclical thoughts and focus on the interaction between the two of you. Look for explicit signs – even if I don't catch them instinctually and have to take a moment to interpret them, that's still better than missing them altogether. And women seem to always be sending signs. You can even look these up online for men and women; just don't get too paranoid about them either.
Note that these rules aren't about manipulating women, but being more loving, more attentive, more in the moment, yet without sacrificing my own quirks.
Posted by Ben on 01/23/2009 at 01:20pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hmmmm… I think one of the reasons you are so good at working is that you're clear on your GOALS – ie.. you know that you would like investors in your company, product placement on your radio show, knowledge about recruiting etc. NOW YOU JUST NEED TO DECIDE WHAT YOU WANT FOR YOU PERSONAL LIFE. Do you want a guy whos a good father? Wants a family? Doesn't want a family? Do you want someone who likes to go out for a drink? or maybe someone who would prefer a hike in the mountains? Religious? Non-religious? Make a list of the qualities your looking for in a partner, and when you meet a man you'll be focused on figuring out if your compatible, not thinking of 'bonuses' that might come from dating him. For instance, I want a family, so if I went on a date with a man who indicated that he didnt' want kids, I would lose interest – I wouldn't care if I could get a new furniture set out of him or not, because his personal goals aren't aligned with mine.
Posted by Mariana on 01/23/2009 at 01:20pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hi Penelope,
Did you take Wired's aspie test? I scored off the charts! ;)
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html
Posted by hutchie on 01/23/2009 at 01:48pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope -
Even fantastic bloggers might need compliments I think. I want you to know that I find your blog inspiring. I just started one and I don't know that I will ever been as uncommonly transparent as you, but I am trying. Thank you for your honesty.
Amber
Posted by Amber Warren on 01/23/2009 at 02:01pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I think that women who easily think of ways to do business with a man on a date come across as creative. I think that successful men would enjoy the possibility of having someone who they can date and also have as a business partner. However, that is based on the assumption that the woman and the man are in some kind of continuous relationship. If she dates a variety of men and is planning businesses with all of them, then he may feel like just another business plan.
I find it interesting that you have been able to enter into sexual relationships with men so quickly after your divorce. Do you think that the characteristics of sex within your marriage made it easier to do so? I ask this based on the assumption that you only had sex with your husband while you were married. I also ask because I think that if my wife and I divorced, it would be very difficult for me to enter into a sexual relationship with another person. I would need quite a bit of time (probably at least a year) to recover from the failure of my marriage.
Thanks for continuing to write though provoking entries!
Posted by Anjuan on 01/23/2009 at 02:20pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
You've been on fire lately. Just really good stuff from a variety of different angles.
Posted by Ron on 01/23/2009 at 02:34pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
How can any meaningful relationship occur when one party is trying to use the other from day one?
Yeah, that's a good recipe for happiness.
Posted by Reality Check on 01/23/2009 at 02:39pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
You need a break. I've found that "work" has been my greatest ally in these situations. Just dive right in there and stop "dating" for a while.
Buy a plant.
If it's still alive in a year buy a dog.
If both are still alive in another year consider dating.
Ask that all who come into your life are for the highest and greatest good.
That's how I met my wife.
Best thing ever.
Posted by Stephen on 01/23/2009 at 02:41pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Why do people insist on editing Penelope's blog for her? It gets a bit annoying after a while.
And Penelope — I'd say that it would be incredibly difficult to separate work life from personal life. I don't think the goal should be to separate the two, but to find a way to interconnect them that works for you! And, if a man doesn't appreciate the way your mind works in a strategic, business-like fashion at times, then I'm guessing he's not the one for you. ;-)
Posted by Jamie Varon on 01/23/2009 at 02:52pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
P –
you mess with my head all the time. I am reading this and thinking so many things at once – good story …bad story … it happens to her too…blah blah.
My husband and I LOVE to talk about our work – in fact we sometimes fight to get our own stories out first …and I am ALWAYS thinking about my work ….I guess that displays passion to a certain extent and that is good.
But you seem to be a couple of notches worse in this ladder …but I will trust that you really want to do something about it – based on the questions you asked in the end. So here you go –
1. Your brain cannot stop – the only way to quiet it is to do something physically consuming and intense (requiring concentration) with the guy (not sex) – like skiing, video games etc. You cannot stop thinking a certain way by thinking more about it …
2. Or do something to connect with the guy at an emotional level – like watch a chickflik – if that works …but the farmer tried to connect with you emotionally and that failed – so this will not work for you, i am sure.
Another little mindhack (use your business mind to trick yourself ;))- think of him as your customer – your date I mean. The problem is that you seem to think of everyone as a VC. If someone is your customer/client, you ALWAYS have to think in terms of "What is in it for them? What value do I bring for THEM?" …in which case you might be able t =o use your business brain to benefit your date and eventually benefit yourself ;)
A lot of this might sound silly – but these tricks really work for me :)
But why do I get the feeling that you almost enjoy this problem too much to try to do anything about it ??
I had fun commenting – I cannot refuse fun analysis such as this. Take care!
Posted by Maya on 01/23/2009 at 03:47pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This new man I've been sleeping with and I use your blog as foreplay. Keep up the good work.
Posted by RML on 01/23/2009 at 04:21pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Best. Comment.
Posted by Msamye on 01/28/2009 at 01:13am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'm married, so I don't date. However, my problem seems to be the opposite of yours. I am in sales, and I end up becoming friends with the person, especially when I'm working with non-profits or start ups. I get so excited about their ideas and causes that I forget to make money. I do too much for free or almost free. Why can't I turn everything in a business opportunity instead of a friendship? I have enough friends!
Posted by Debby :) on 01/23/2009 at 04:23pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
ah, you've found the secret to madison. it's a great place to go to school, a great place to work, a great place to raise kids, but not a great place for single people, especially above the age of 30-ish. Especially, a business-minded, entrepreneurial, woman.
i've been asked why i can't separate my business from my life, and the culture that is my business just doesn't separate like that, and i'm not sure it has to. and many of my friends are peers in my industry. for example, whether it's a healthy one or not, is Google, where they cultivate a culture (for their employees) around their business.
i've got no answers for you, as i'm in the same boat as you. i run my own business, i'm single and i do well financially. i've noticed some or all these things are a little intimidating to most of the guys i've dated recently.
maybe we should collaborate about this, two heads might be better than one in this respect. the next doubles tourney, perhaps?
Posted by eileen on 01/23/2009 at 04:28pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
i think the previous sarah's advice was excellent and i have a few tips of my own.
1. never tell a guy you think you have a disease until you've been dating for several months (unless it's an STD he needs to know about and don't lead with that. have that talk just before you think you are going to have sex).
2. a couple of people have mentioned taking time off and/or clarifying what you want and the first is not a bad idea and the second is essential. you may think you are fine, but you've just gotten divorced and are therefore officially a basket case. seriously, even if you think you are fine–you are likely not quite as fine as you think. you admit that getting divorced was one of the worst, if not the worst, things that has happened to you. you will look back at this time and think "how the hell could i have dated anyone? i was a mess." take stock of why you are dating and what you want. seriously consider just letting yourself process the divorce and recover. are you avoiding how you feel about the divorce? will dating someone make you feel validated?
3. you won't lose your social skills if you take time off from dating–you fully admit you don't have dating skills right now anyway, but have exceptional biz/networking skills. look at the skills that translate and apply them. why do you miss men's cues?
4. several posters are right–who are you besides a mom and business owner? secret knitter? golfer? no time for hobbies? consider using your dating time to take up a hobby or learn a language or do something you love, particularly with friends. research shows that female friends are essential to a woman's mental health. you rarely mention female friends in your blog. do you have any? if so, spend more time with them. if not, get some.
5. get something to talk about besides business. you've done a lot of interesting research on people, how they think, behaviors, etc and you put them in a work context, but what if you just talked to someone about those topics from a different perspective? that would be interesting. i'd go on that date. you know about the world at large. talk about it. find out what your date thinks about obama, the middle east, etc.
6. my ex and i would talk business sometimes, but we had lots of other interests, too. balance. everything in moderation. you have little to no balance in your life, which is why this is so hard.
"wherever you go, there you are." jon kabat-zinn
Posted by sarahb on 01/23/2009 at 05:08pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
What about volunteering to coach vollyball? You'll make contacts with all the parents, there might be single dads, and there could be investors living in Madison or people who need to hire someone and could do that through Brazen Careerist. You give back, you use your skills, you stay healthy, and you help yourself and your business.
Posted by Bethany on 01/23/2009 at 05:18pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
If I remember correctly, you wrote quite a bit about how wonderful life was in Madison, and why it was such a good idea as compared to NYC. Now you're seeing that not all quality of life measurements are a matter of cost of living or other dollar based measures.
As to your relationship issues, do you ever consider what it looks like from the viewpoint of your dates? I mean "Let's go to bed and do you want to invest in my company?" is not a line that will captivate many men. It sounds to me like you don't have any sort of life outside of work, but if that is the case, why fight it? If the business is so important right now, why not focus as much of your energy as possible towards it? At some point down the road, when you are ready, you'll be able to step back and seperate yourself from that. then would be the time to start thinking about building a life away from work.
Posted by Dave on 01/23/2009 at 05:10pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
As usual, you're an absolute nut! Deeeelightful. Here's a contrarian thought: "the authentically happy people are those who don't distinguish between life and work." I've forgotten who said that, but it must have been some important European philosopher. Ha!
I can't distinguish between the two–and it's glorious. And guess what–my wife never complains about it–after 50 years of marriage.
Posted by Dan Erwin on 01/23/2009 at 06:13pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Reading this post reminded me of this article: http://tiny.cc/sixux
Mattress King Selects Wife From Small Wisconsin Village
Posted by Pizzamancer on 01/23/2009 at 09:01pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Do successful career women..sleep around more than the average gal?
Posted by ravi kumar on 03/30/2009 at 09:12am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I discovered this blog last week, and my jaw hit the floor when I found out you actually moved to Wisconsin. I started a blog just this month chronicling my efforts to get OUT of Wisconsin. One major reason is the lack of eligible dating partners. People here get married very early and stay that way. If you aren't lucky to meet someone young, then forget about it. Wisconsin is a breeding ground. If you're a woman you go elsewhere to find a husband and come back to Wisconsin to nest. For years now every single girl I've met is in some kind of relationship, usually married. At 35, I've totally given up. I don't know what it's like for women, but it's probably better. I know lots of single, eligible men who can't find women. I know absolutely no women in the same position. If you're a single man in Wisconsin, you've got a tough row to hoe.
Also, as a male, this post made me cringe a bit. It reconfirms all my negative stereotypes about women, specifically that they're only interested in money. Apparently a humble architect like myself wouldn't stand a chance with you since I don't run a million dollar business or make six figures. Sheesh!
Posted by ChadH on 01/23/2009 at 11:11pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
it's funny you say these things, i feel the same way as a woman and am planning to move out of state, as there are a lack of eligible, quality men in wisconsin/madison. i hear this over and over again from the women i meet about dating here. single women above the age of 30 have a tough row to hoe here in wisconsin as for people getting married early here, that is somewhat true, however, many of my single male friends that are my age tend to date women 10/15 (38-39yo men dating 21-29 yo women) years younger than them.
i could go on, but i was suprised by your post, and thought you might find it interesting that there are single women your age in the same boat as you.
relating to the money issue, the single most common issue couples fight about is money.
P has mentioned money was a huge conflict in her marriage, and is fearful of having another relationship where financial differences are problematic. she made significantly more money than her husband did, and it was a problem.
so, meeting someone that is close to a financial equal to her is her preference in looking for a partner. my male friends prefer to date younger women. do preferences equal stereotypes?
Posted by dinae on 01/24/2009 at 03:00pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
wow a bit anxious commenting after john … what is a POS … I know what a FIG JAM is and maybe John is one of them … hmmm
Anyways P both husband one and two and the third I have on offer (no intent to take up) I have meet at work … so what is the rush to separate work and play … common ground is a useful thing for prolonging and expanding the connection I feel.
So my challenge to you – mix it up – make work personal .. most of the people I hire I would choose to have a personal relationship with – friend or lover – it gives me a nice feeling knowing I value them on a number of levels – not just for the sake of work and work alone.
As always my best le
Posted by le @ thirdontheright on 01/24/2009 at 06:37am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I didn't really address your questions in my previous post, so here's my appendix.
"Don't most women spend the majority of their time with men in a work situation?" Depends on their outside interests, but probably true.
"And don't most women train themselves to not do dating when it's time to do work?" Some women won't/don't and some do. Depends. I have dated a guy from work twice, but in general I avoid it. As for behavior, if you flirt too much, you lose credibility.
"So how do we retrain ourselves? I am so good at figuring out how to do business with every guy I meet. How does this translate on a date?" All of the probing you do to find out how to do biz should be directed to probing about their personal life to find the personal and emotional connections between you. Not the monetary ones.
Posted by sarahb on 01/24/2009 at 06:52am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Wanna hear something crazy? I went through a bad breakup myself about 2 years ago. We'd dated for about a year (long-distance) and I was desperately in love, so I moved from Buffalo to Washington DC to be closer and to "advance" the relationship. We broke up almost the moment I got here…
So, to combat my broken heart and be less lonely, I started going to wine tasting events, joined a running club, and even took acting lessons. Three years later, I'm a working actor in the DC area, a respected wine connoisseur, and I've run 4 marathons.
Funny where life takes you when you're not looking…
-Paul-
Posted by Paul on 01/24/2009 at 09:16am | permalink | Reply to this comment
When you have an interesting job men want to know about your work. Hopefully when you are in bed you can focus on what is happening at that moment and not be mining for connections or information. You could save the questions for the next date, it might be a good way to start out the date. Stimulating conversation is sexy. But you need to take a moment to enjoy the present. You'll feel better.
Posted by Bridget on 01/24/2009 at 09:20am | permalink | Reply to this comment
You are a riot. What a joy to read about you vicissitudes with regard to life, work and love/sex. Sometimes being lost in the moment occurs for many of us. Used to get my lady laughing so hard she would lost concentration and be unable to stop laughing and we would end up asleep without the sex but with a smile none the less.
Posted by Don B. on 01/24/2009 at 10:17am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I love your posts, so real and very funny. Originally from WI and grew up there, I know what you mean..moved to CA in 97. Best move I ever made for me and my kids; more opportunity, more socializing, keeping your mind off constantly working. Maybe you wouldn't even think of not being able to separate social and business if you were somewhere else. It's strange what WI does to you..still have friends there caught in the same rut. You'll figure it out.
Posted by Diane C on 01/24/2009 at 11:37am | permalink | Reply to this comment
P interesting post.
I think you need to move. You post very few complimentary things about the city you live in. I am not sure why you have to live in Madison, your compnay doesn't seem to have a physical presence, and it if it does, sure Madison is less than optimal.
From your stories of Silicon Valley and life in New York, I can't imagine how you have lasted this long. As someone who has lived on both coasts and small midwestern towns, each city is not for everyone. You said that you have worked through much of the 'dateable' population. Surely a city like Seattle or LA will provide the lifestyle you are looking for.
Good luck.
Posted by Rich on 01/24/2009 at 11:47am | permalink | Reply to this comment
After reading this a day late… (How come I get these after the gen y's?) and then listening to the live voice feed I have two different comments. 1.) I agree with almost all the posts. 2.)Freeze my undies!!-is this funny or what?
Posted by Michael Alexander on 01/24/2009 at 01:36pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
It's likely you're simply feeling a loss of control (which has great repercussions for an ENTJ) so you take control where you feel competent (businessmen). You're trying to diagnose yourself with a label (autism spectrum) just because the categorization and organizing brings you peace.
You're, by necessity, living an unbalanced life at the moment. Once things get less stressful, if you balanced your intellectual/social/physical/spiritual selves you would notice a huge improvement in your ability to have a healthy relationship.
You're too competent at understanding relationships to be on the spectrum. Once you can take time to feed your introverted intuition rather than needing to bulldoze for your business with your strong extraverted thinking you will be fine, I promise.
Posted by Alison on 01/24/2009 at 05:35pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, let's swap. I'm on the west coast looking for single women and you're in the midwest looking for single men. According to that map, I'd be better off in Chicago than in San Francisco and you'd be better in SF or Seattle (both beautiful cities btw).
Post-divorce life takes about a year to normalize. Give it time, don't force it, and don't feel bad about not feeling good all the time. Have ice cream for lunch. Really, it does wonders once in a while.
Posted by curiously random on 01/24/2009 at 05:46pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, your greatest strength and your greatest weakness is that your are an opportunist. But I think an opportunist lives a hard life–always hyperalert for the opportunity around the corner OR scrambling to create an opportunity. And yes, as others have said, your datee may feel used.
You are not clear about whether you are lonely, in need of an in-depth relationship; or simply needing to scratch an itch (sex). When you said that you fell asleep in the guy's arms . . . that seemed to be the tenderest and most authentic moment (to me).
I have no inspiration or advice–except that I agree with the responses that say you should relax and stop trying so hard. Seems to me, opportunities come when you are NOT trying so hard to create them/take control. Like when you want to have a baby and cannot get pregnant, but as soon as you stop trying and stop stressing about it, it happens. Just a little lesson to demonstrate how we simply cannot be in-control, no matter how hard or how smart we work at it.
If the above strategy is any good at all, you will meet someone around a common interest, in a relaxed setting where "the first date" is hardly recognizable as such.
Chris from Wisconsin
Posted by CAK on 01/24/2009 at 06:24pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Life is about creating. Creating sensuality and extended periods of intamicy is another story for those of us who are creative or have minds that are not wired for the normal relationship. Saving oneself for the right person has merit in that it's a psychological gamble to troll about to get ones ashes hauled.(let's do a blog on phraseology). Sex and intimacy create a bond for most of us that can be tied to accumulated error that leaves us wondering if after 40 or umff 50 if it is just easier to go it alone. Now the fun can really begin. We can start creating again without the hassle of chasing intimacy and sensuality to the far corners of genetic frenzy. Not so fast buster! I can say in a Wisconsin minute that before we head down the devils drainpipe we must all have fun !
If P is not having fun in Wisconsin it's cause she's hanging with the wrong blocks of cheese. Buck up there P!
Posted by Michael Alexander on 01/24/2009 at 08:12pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Talk about outing yourself as a gold digger…PT, you only seem to care about money, power, and prestige. I pity you, because there is so much more to life. I'm glad you did finally wise up and realize that your career advice was about as professional as a little league baseball team and gave up on it. At least now you can just "dish" about your life and not attempt to make it into something it is not. It sounds like karma is starting to catch up…
Posted by Phil on 01/25/2009 at 05:28pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
gogo boys will make you happy, if all that you wanna is sex. You know, just do like the men, use hookers.
If you want something more, choose someone who you can't do business, like your boss.
Posted by ogog on 01/25/2009 at 11:10pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Do successful career women..sleep around more than the average gal?
Posted by Xencor on 01/26/2009 at 10:36am | permalink | Reply to this comment
No, they work until they pass out at the end of the day and sleep.
Posted by MJ on 01/27/2009 at 09:59am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, why do you feel like you need to be dating in the first place? If your work life is really what you want to focus on, then just do it. You also have at least one child that I know of – maybe you could also find some time in there for your kids and give the parade of men a break for a while.
Posted by Pirate Jo on 01/26/2009 at 11:38am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Getting a new dining room set for a radio plug isn't a business transaction–it's using someone. You need to learn the difference between a transaction between two corporate entities and favors between friends. If you have any friends.
Please stop thinking about what's in it for Penelope.
Posted by Belinda on 01/26/2009 at 11:45am | permalink | Reply to this comment
But that's what she does, work the angles. What you call "using", she might call "networking". I don't recall that she ever claimed to be a saint.
Posted by Dan on 01/26/2009 at 12:56pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Ugh Penelope…I feel your pain. As a former Milwaukee/Madison girl, the dating is weak, especially in Madison. East side of Milwaukee might be better for you, but nothing does compare to what you are probably used to. I wish I had more words of advice except take a few trips to Chicago?
Was it a Steinhafel? They do own everything…
Posted by W. Serafin on 01/26/2009 at 03:50pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Have you ever slept with someone without expecting anything but the O? Just curious
Posted by Xencor on 01/26/2009 at 04:12pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penny,
Do you know who you are or what you really want? That's what you're really asking in this post.
It isn't so strange, I don't know the answer for myself nor for you, and neither do most people.
But what you're asking is probably best answered by deep soul searching (done alone which you hate to be), or by a great shrink, or by loved ones who know you best – from childhood. Seek answers there.
Other than that let life happen, it will anyway:)
Posted by Dale on 01/26/2009 at 07:47pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Because work takes up so much of your day, I have to agree that it is sometimes hard not to talk about it on a date….whether it is to try and impress, you are letting off steam or to find it to be an easy topic of conversation. Unfortunately this is all surface material. You really find out who someone is after say the 4th or 5th date I think.
Posted by Chris Bauman on 01/26/2009 at 08:36pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I think the problem is very clear – your brain/mind/body/soul doesn't want to focus on dating right now. It wants to focus on work. Why fight it? Throw yourself into work, and get yourself a vibrator. To each in its own time.
Posted by deepali on 01/27/2009 at 11:28am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Two words:
Switch.
Teams.
Think about it.
Posted by Chris on 01/27/2009 at 12:55pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
What I notice is your value judgements. First thing you say about the real estate guy is that he is a bit chunky around the middle — that says that the first thing you noticed and evaluated was his physical attractiveness / fitness. Then you call him a "mogul," which has definite connotations of Money. Then you talk about the furniture guy, and you are assuming that he is not rich or even well-off, and that he will dump you and take you for every penny he can get.
Maybe you need to do a little less fantasizing, and a little less pre-judging, and get grounded in reality. How do you know that the furniture guy is the kind of guy who would (a) give you a room full of furniture for sex, (b) not be a good financial provider, and (c) divorce you and then demand spousal support? How do you know that the "mogul" really is rich?
Go on a date and do something that is totally unrelated to business. And stop obsessing about sex. If you need the release, there's ways to get that without complicating your male-female friendships until you've known the guy for more than a few days.
Posted by editormum on 01/27/2009 at 03:31pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I dunno if it's you. I spend a lot of time in a counseling and the biggest thing everyone seems to need to learn there is to accept themselves the way they are. I mean, always strive to be better, yadda yadda yadda, but how you feel inside, your intuition… you know what? It's ok.
Lots of people who commented here seem to have advice on how you should be but I think anyone in your boat might end up feeling the way you do. But yeah, if you had more men to pick from that would help. People are always saying to connect with those likeminded, say if you LOVE scrabble, join a scrabble group and find someone as intense about it as you. Maybe the right guy will be one who is equally ambitious.
Your divorce wasn't that long ago – this is just a transitory time. But I love when you write about your love life because it helps me deal with my own, which is rocky and tremulous and not such a great place to be. Your bravery helps me with my own fear, so thanks for your candidness.
Posted by me on 01/27/2009 at 06:38pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I just found your blog and I think I'm in love (not in a creepy stalker way). Great post and I'm the exact same way with my husband. I can always tell I'm 'doing it again' when his eyes glaze over at more talk of twitter, rss feeds, community. It took me years, but I don't apologize for having passion anymore. I'm a wacky left-handed gemini and if I wasn't, I'd be boring. Maybe I'm boring to others, but I like me – and that's paramount. As long as you're not afraid to put yourself out there, you have no worries. Eventually, the stars will align and you'll stumble upon someone perfect for you…or at least perfect for you right now. There's nothing wrong with you, you stay comfortable in your own skin and that will resonate with people you meet. You're 100% unique, smart, interesting, skilled and people will be drawn to you.
Posted by Cheryl Allin on 01/27/2009 at 09:07pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Call me romantic or post-feminist, but put I think a woman needs to be able to relax and put the burdens down when she is dating, especially if she wants to hook up with a man with any quality at all. Judging from your posts since the divorce, you want to have a great connection with someone substantial who you can trust and respect, and a relationship that is deeply and irrationally erotic. A guy like the one you want is going to be bored by a money pitch or work talk; he won't connect with you the way you want him to connect with you.
Posted by lori nelson on 01/28/2009 at 03:13am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Have you considered the advantages of online dating? You have longer to decide what to say, so the conversations will not automatically go to business. You are not tied to your location so the dating pool is bigger and much more diverse but you don't have to relocate until you know it's worth while. You get to know a person's mind without the social awkwardness of dating a stranger. You can get to know people you would normally write off too quickly in real life situations.
Posted by jemimah ruhala on 01/28/2009 at 10:00am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I have to say I'm kind of scratching my head over this post. Are you looking to date for the sake of having fun and sex? Or are you interviewing candidates to be your next husband? Or to be your next investor? They seem all mixed up to me–like you think you're looking for something romantic/sexual but in reality you're looking for funding.
In any of these cases, I really don't think moving somewhere where there are more single men is going to make any difference–after all, it's not the quality/quantity of men you're meeting that is causing your inability to turn your business mind off. It's you.
Maybe it's because I am not a business person that dating/relationships/sex have never been problems for me. I am as into my career as the next person and have a hard time turning it off in my head, but I was never looking for guys who could further my career when I was dating–I was looking for guys I was attracted to and wanted to date.
I'm not saying this next thing facitiously and I know everyone reading this will be horrified, but maybe you should consider dating guys who are not single. I don't mean going around plucking guys from their happy married lives and stealing them; I mean there are many, MANY guys out there who are married only for appearances or finances and whose wives could care less what they're doing because they're doing the same. It would keep you from having to worry about all the what-ifs as far as you having to support them if you ever got divorced. I don't know that it would solve the whole not being able to think about anything but business in bed thing, but who knows–maybe with the possible marriage pressure off the table you'd be able to just relax and enjoy instead of trying to close a business deal.
As to the work/dating question–I met my husband at work. We talked about work some–ok, a lot–but when it was time for fun or sex, thinking about work didn't occur to me. Maybe the problem is that the guys you're dating are no good in bed; if they were, your mind wouldn't be wandering.
Posted by Maggie on 01/28/2009 at 10:10am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Maggie said some wise things:
It is you–you cannot escape this problem by morning to another place with more/better opportunities.
YOU, Penelope, have a mind that never turns off–you are thinking about an opportunity for funding; and/or an opportunity for a hot topics to write about. And maybe other things, too, like your kids' nanny, school, general well-being.
The Zen masters would advise that you find a way to turn off your racing mind. They would probably want you to learn to meditate . . . This is much more of a skill than just "relaxing". And you would need to learn to "let go" in the Zen way of "detachment". Do you think you could ever adopt the position of taking OR leaving some goal you had set for yourself (that high level of detachment)?
They say, about ADHD, that it is not so much an attention deficit that kids have, but rather a hyperfocus, such that they cannot break away to refocus on the next thing. That those ADHD kids are not able to let go of the last thing, and transition smoothly to the next thing . . . and then move on again to the next thing . . .
Chris in WI
Posted by CAK on 01/28/2009 at 10:33am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
Your dating is just another thing to accomplish on your "to-do" list. Does it really feel good, or does it feel good because you like crossing things off the list?
You've been with men in your industry, you've been with men outside your industry. It's not about the men, or lack of them. C'mon, you know this. Don't hide behind your own comfortable quirky neediness. What is the payback that you have been receiving for it? Is it really that great?
Desperation just attracts desperation. There are some things that shouldn't be squeezed in or forced. Trust that God has something in store for you and just wait for it for a while. Be up for the challenge of standing on your own, trusting that you already have all that you need.
Have you read, "Eat, Pray, Love", or is that just too obvious. Watch "Groundhog Day". Very spiritual.
All the best.
Posted by Grace on 01/28/2009 at 11:43am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Well said!
Posted by Stephen on 01/28/2009 at 12:29pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
And, all this alone time isn't a means to the end known as "finding a good catch". Just enjoy it for what it is. Time alone.
Posted by Grace on 01/28/2009 at 11:45am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Well said Grace!
Posted by Dale on 01/28/2009 at 11:57am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'm not sure I see something that needs 'fixing' like you do or some other readers, I think you are just very passionate about what you do and thus you get interested when someone else you meet, regardless of if it's a potential date or not, is doing something you are interested in.
I think if one shows true interest in another, that's the key, but if one is just in it to see what they can get out of it (shameless networking, for example) then that's a huge turnoff.
Not saying you are doing that, just thinking of my own experience with some 'friends' who turned our friendship just into a 'hey how are you hey can you do this for me'
ick.
Posted by finance girl on 01/28/2009 at 01:30pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
p.
that's hilarious. in a sad way. but still hilarious. i own a MRI franchise. (recruiting franchise) i am constantly thinking about who goes where, who knows who. it's manic.
i met a woman at a restaurant and she was a dental hygenist (sp) (great teeth!) but of course i thought, she belongs in sales. so we talked about it, instantly turning what was amazing chemistry into a transaction. she probably thought to herself, omg a headhunter! i can get into sales now… and i've lost.
that happens to me a lot.
do you think your openeness about your personal life affects your funding and corporate life?
matt
ps can u send any of your brunette athletic spanish or italian friends in NC or NYC my way? u r a recruiter right!
Posted by matt on 01/30/2009 at 07:27pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Love your column, Penelope
Although I love your column, I have not read it enough to realize that you are now divorced from the husband you mention in previous columns. Sorry about that. Anyway, I want to tell everyone to be critical when looking at statistics of where the single people are. For example, I live in a city that, according to the Census, has a lot more single women than men. This is very true…but the median age of these single women is about 20 years higher than the median age of single men here. I'm lucky because I don't mind dating older women, but not all middle-aged women want to date a 26-year-old. And…let's not discuss the comments my 20something male cohorts have about "this town being overrun with cougars." So research deeper when you see these singles statistics.
Posted by Charles Xavier on 01/31/2009 at 01:53pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I had to go to a lot of effort to find dating circles that were so totally removed from work that I wasn't tempted to co-mingle the two. It took ages to figure it out. It eventually worked, but now I have a different problem: because I have a husband who is not in my field and who is not a workaholic (like me), we struggle over things that I never expected to struggle over.
Pick your battles. No matter which ones you win, there will be plenty of others waiting in the wings to kick your ass.
Posted by Alora on 02/01/2009 at 05:20pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
P –
For what it's worth:
You haven't asked yourself what you want out of a relationship or in a man/mate. Instead, you're focused on business.
Take some time to make yourself a list of what you want in a mate. Examine yourself. Be honest. Be very specific. Don't dwell on what you don't want, because what you focus on gets bigger. If you find yourself saying, "I don't want another man who quits his job and then I have to support him," then turn it around to something you do want.
Keep dating as you do this. Expand your list as you date. You'll find that you attract the men who are like the list, and you'll realize you forgot to add this or that. Eventually, the right guy will come along that matches your order, and you will know it when you meet him.
Give it a try. You can always go back and "network" with the guys who don't fill your order.
Posted by Dana Boyle on 02/02/2009 at 12:27pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
> supporting…for the rest of my life
Hilarious. How about posting a correction?
Posted by Nino on 02/02/2009 at 05:41pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
You know, just today, I was thinking long and hard about this. I know it's not healthy but I barely have any life outside of work. What time I have out of work, I spend alone because I want to. I mean I need SOME time when I can read, surf, cook, think and sleep. Can't all the time be around people.
I am still at the stage where I am trying to not date at work. But I can see myself there with you too. That will happen soon. Being a huge introvert, hasn't really helped me network. Need to work on that.
Thank you so much for the good work that you are doing. I read your articles quite regularly and find many gems of good advice.
Warm regards,
Indrani
Posted by Indrani on 02/06/2009 at 09:45pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
They did a study of women and asked women what they really wanted to do in bed. Most women really would like to get more SLEEP when they are in bed.
This is probably tied to the rush-rush-rush overstressed lifestyle that most women live. I don't know how women who are wives and mothers, as well as work outside the home, do everything they do.
Posted by Daniel on 03/06/2009 at 12:54pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
My divorce lawyer didn't act as a dating service!
Posted by Susan Garcia on 03/09/2009 at 01:59pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This all work, no play lifestyle that appears to be upon us these days is taking it's toll on family life of that there is no doubt. The worldwide recession will only add to this. Proper family values are gone and will never be the same sadly.
Posted by Bill Bryce on 03/16/2009 at 11:10am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Your story sounds exactly like mine. After my divorce, I wanted to date, but I felt I had very few options because I simply didn't know any single men. After about a year, I realized that the problem was that I needed a new group of friends. Most of my old friends were married and the social circles I circulated in weren't conducive to meeting single men.
Jamie
Posted by Jamie on 03/23/2009 at 10:04am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Work to live, don't live to work
Posted by Kuy on 04/04/2009 at 07:57pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
The divorce lawyer is a guy who can withstand many hysterical fits in one day probably because he charges hourly for them but also because it comes with the territory when you are helping people get through the worst time in their lives and they need someone to blame for it. So he said, "It's not just furniture. He owns every furniture store in the state." I totally agree with this definition of lawyer.
Posted by Alfred on 04/13/2009 at 02:57am | permalink | Reply to this comment
This is the problem with letting your work take over your life. We all need to take a step back sometimes and re-evaluate our priorities.
Posted by Angie on 04/19/2009 at 10:18pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Very interesting insights on work and dating. It seems that work and relationship both require some professionalism ( I mean dedication)!
Posted by Herpes on 05/15/2009 at 01:08pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Modern life has nothing to do with human being nature. Our society is brainwashed by following the examples of others they see in the media.
Posted by Free bonus promotions on 05/16/2009 at 03:17pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
It is important to focus on work and be successful, but you can't let it define you as a person. I am annoyed when all people want to talk about is work. Of course that is a major part of their life, but you have to have a social life and get joy from something outside work. Even if its not a social life, at least some good hobbies that you can talk about and stay interesting.
Posted by Jason on 05/19/2009 at 05:35pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Does not matter what people is talking about: a pedofile may talk about his postage stamps collection hobby and it would not define him as a person
Posted by Google on 06/03/2009 at 07:30am | permalink | Reply to this comment
informative entry not just for the ladies I suppose.
It is hard to find the right balance between personal and work and unfortunately for many of us it is the work that we do that defines who we are as people and that is hard to switch off.
What makes a successful marriage…when you find out do let me know
Posted by Sports Flooring on 06/14/2009 at 06:26pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
"Fortunately, in a town like Madison, all the rich guys go to the same divorce lawyer, so my lawyer had another idea. A furniture store owner."
unwittingly, One of global warming causes is Divorce, we spend electricity twice after that, LoL.
Posted by Ipod touch microphone on 06/15/2009 at 12:12pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Funny – I always enjoy a dollop of wit in the blogs I read. Keep up the good work.
Posted by Insurance on 06/20/2009 at 12:28am | permalink | Reply to this comment
this was indeed a read which has confirmed my thoughts about this subject
Posted by windows tweaks on 06/21/2009 at 12:12pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This has confirmed some stuff for me,
Posted by laptop charger expert on 06/22/2009 at 03:07am | permalink | Reply to this comment
"Fortunately, in a town like Madison, all the rich guys go to the same divorce lawyer, so my lawyer had another idea. A furniture store owner."
unwittingly, One of global warming causes is Divorce, we spend electricity twice after that, LoL.
Posted by diarrhea on 07/29/2009 at 02:55pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Agree that women tend to separate the dating world from the world of work. I even don't wear my hair down at work for risk of looking bimbo-ish and not being taken seriously. But then there is a body of 'evidence' that suggests that women who wear make-up at work earn 25% more than those who don't. Hmmm what on earth does that mean?
Posted by Mary Glen on 08/29/2009 at 11:46pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
"So I went out with the real estate guy. He said right away that he wants to diversify, and I thought right away that I'd get him to fund my company. But before I could move in for the kill, I started falling for him. Which was very bad because I did not have my dating pitch set. Only my company pitch. And, he actually said to me, "You need a better pitch." About my marriage. He said that. He said I need to explain in a quick way what happened with the marriage."
Lol!! Oh Snap! That was wicked.
Posted by Effective Link Building Services on 10/09/2009 at 04:14am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Guys have similiar issues with work and dating.
Posted by bluehost on 10/22/2009 at 10:51pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I live in Baltimore, just in the right place:) Btw the map was too simple, I would have guessed approximately the same areas where more singles live.
Posted by David3210 on 10/31/2009 at 09:59am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Commitment is a big word to most guys myself included, the sooner girls realise this the better
Posted by John Smart on 11/04/2009 at 03:27am | permalink | Reply to this comment