Divorce is immature and selfish. Don’t do it.
Divorce is always on my mind because I got a divorce four years ago. Not that I wanted to. In fact, when I thought we were going to a couples therapist we were actually going to a divorce mediator. And then, when it was clear that we were going to have to get a divorce, and I had all the money to fund it, my lawyer finally said to me, “If you drag your feet any longer, you’re going to have to get a new lawyer because I’m retiring.”
So we got a divorce. I hated it. (And of course, I blogged about it the whole time.) Subsequently I have become a vocal critic of divorce. I think it’s an incredibly lame and selfish route to take. Here are five reasons why:
1. Divorce is a cliche among people in denial.
I see divorce in every story. For example, as soon as I heard about the school shootings in Chardon, OH, I got stuck on the fact that the kid’s parents had just gotten a divorce and left him with his grandparents. I blame the parents.
Heather Armstrong is a great blogger who I have followed for years. But I’m really stuck on the news that she just announced a separation from her husband.
Armstrong supports her family with her blog, dooce.com, which is about herself, so of course, I watch her really closely. In her post announcing that she had asked her husband to leave, she said the two common, and delusional things we hear from divorced parents all the time:
“I can’t be a good parent if I’m not happy and I’ll never be happy in this marriage.”
and
“The kids are doing so well. Kids are really resilient.”
I’ve heard those things so many times. From parents who are getting a divorce who are full of shit.
The dad who tells everyone he got a divorce because his wife is crazy and then leaves his kids with the mom. Newsflash: if your wife is really crazy, then you are crazy for leaving your kids alone with her. In fact, you are not crazy, you’re willfully negligent. And if your wife is not really crazy then get your butt back to the house and raise your kids like an adult.
The mom who says the kids are fine. What does that mean? Do you know that if you ask kids who are living with a crack addict mom if they are fine, they’ll say yes. They’ll say they want to stay. Because kids are trying to survive.
2. Divorce is nearly always terrible for kids. Your case is not the exception.
Kids do not break down during a divorce because they see their parents breaking down. The kids see that one parent just abandoned them. Of course the kid is not going to have a compete fit and push another parent away in anger. Read The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, which is Judith Wallerstein’s 25-year study of children of divorce. It’s the only study that covers such a long period of time, and she concludes that divorce is absolutely terrible for kids over the long-term. And a wide range of studies have concurred.
It’s completely obvious how Wallerstein gets to her conclusion. Think of it this way: Two parents decide they don’t like living together and they want to start over. They can’t meet their needs by simply living together and making the best of it. They want a new chance, in a new household.
Where does this leave the kids? They don’t get a new chance until they grow up. So now they have to shuttle back and forth between two homes so that their parents can get another chance. Meanwhile, the kids don’t get a second chance at their childhood. And the most damaging thing about divorce is that the kids don’t have a home; to say a kid has two homes is the same as saying the kid has no home. Because a home is your basecamp. If you have two basecamps you don’t have a home.
And anyway, if having two homes really worked, then the parents who are so upset about living together can each have a different home during the day, while the kids are at school, and then come back to their other home. But no one would do that, right? Because having two homes sucks.
3. Divorce is for dumb people.
In case you are thinking that divorce is normal among smart, educated parents, you would be wrong. The divorce rate is plummeting among educated women. For example, among Asian women with a college degree the divorce rate is one percent. Divorce is for people who can’t think ahead enough to realize that the cost to the kids is so high that it’s not worth the benefits the parents get.
4. Divorce reflects mental illness.
I have been reading tons of books about borderline personality disorder and parenting, and I’m surprised that no one has pointed out that the decision to divorce is similar to the decision making process that you get with borderline personality disorder.
For example, a parent with BPD is often unable to separate their own wellbeing from their child’s. The person with BPD is afraid of not being loved and makes all their decisions based on that fear.
So, the person decides they are not receiving proper love in their marriage and then decides that the children would be better off if the marriage were over. The marriage being over is not good for the children. But that is not the issue.
Why do we treat people with BPD as mentally ill and people getting a divorce as adults making adult decisions?
5. Divorce is often a career issue. I can help with that.
So many times I have been coaching someone who thought they need a divorce, but really, the marriage has a career issue. So, look, when there are no kids, I don’t think there’s a lot of collateral damage when two people want a divorce. But maybe I can save a few children’s childhoods by telling you some common problems and how to solve them:
The woman is pissed that her husband hasn’t gotten a good paying job in years.
This type of woman feels overly responsible for taking care of the family. And she feels taken advantage of by the guy because she thinks he could get a job if he wanted to. (This is probably where Heather is coming from since her husband, who has been working on her blog for years, announced he is looking for a job.)
The problem, though, is that the woman married a guy who doesn’t want to have a big career. She knew this before they got married, but she chose to ignore it. There was probably something she liked about him, something she needed from him, that he provided. Now she wants something different.
The solution is to stop being angry at the guy for not getting a job. Remember that the kids love him and remind yourself the reasons you loved him when you married him. Those things are still there. If you get a divorce you are not going to be able to miraculously stop working. So bite the bullet and accept where you are and finish raising the kids.
Bonus: If you start loving your husband again you will probably love your job again because you’ll feel good that the job allows you to create a happy family.
The guy who thinks his wife is holding back his career.
Oh, god, I hear this so many times. The guy is not where he wants to be in his career. He has so many ideas, so many dreams, and he is really unhappy where his is.
The answer here is: tough shit. You had kids before you fulfilled all your career dreams. Unless you are independently wealthy, you have to scale back your dreams when you have kids because you can’t take wild financial risks with your family’s wellbeing.
So you have kids and a wife, and you have to get a reality check that you are not going to be Mark Zuckerberg. It’s okay. Just focus on being a good father and a good husband and stay with your wife and kids.
It is incredibly selfish and immature to decide your kids should have to shuttle between two families so you can take another swing at a home run. It’s time for you to be a good dad. That’s your job now. You owe it to your kids.
Bonus: Once you start taking pride in being a good parent and a good husband, you will have better self-esteem and your career will get better as a result of that.
The person who is bored and wants out.
So many people get divorced because they are bored. This blows my mind. Your kids are not bored with your marriage. Your kids need boring at home in order to have the necessary foundation to fly outside the home. If your kids are focused on creating their own stability bouncing between two parents then the kids can’t focus on figuring out who they are while they grow up. They have to spend their time figuring out who their family is. And that’s not fair to your kids.
A job absolutely 100% cannot make you happy. A happy family can make you happy and it’s possible that nothing else really even comes close to making a person happy.
So instead of messing up your family in order to make yourself happy, keep your family together and use your job to address your boredom problem. A fun job can make your life more interesting. Your spouse is not in your life to make you feel interesting. Your spouse is there to love you and raise your kids with you. Don’t ask for anything else.
If you want to feel more interesting then go do something more interesting. And come home for dinner.
The person who says they are a victim of violence.
Two-thirds of divorces take place in low-conflict homes, and in those cases, the kids are much better off if the parent just stick it out.
So let’s look at high-conflict homes: It takes two people to fight. And there’s great research to show that if you picked an asshole the first time, you’ll pick the same type of asshole the second time. (Which is why divorce rates for second marriages are so much higher than first marriages.) So instead of getting rid of your kids’ parent, figure out why you picked a person like this, and then get good at drawing boundaries.
Really, good boundaries can save even the worse marriages. Taking care of your own contribution to the mess can single-handedly stop the mess.
This is especially true of violence. At this point in the history, where women have so much earning power, women are equally as responsible for men for the violence in a household. In fact, the US Centers for Disease Control reports that most domestic violence today is a 50/50 thing. Both parties are responsible. Which means that even if you have one of the worst marriages, you have the power to fix it.
And if you don’t use that power—if you don’t fundamentally change how you are in the marriage in order to stop the craziness, then you will not only recreate it in your next relationship, but you will continue to model it for your kids.
So look, I don’t see any reason left that makes divorce ok when there are kids. Personal responsibility always trumps running away. And yes, here are the links to my own marital violence and my decison to stay and fix it. I’m practicing what I preach. I’m working really hard at keeping my own marriage together. It’s a cold, lonely place to be in life. But it’s better than the alternative.
Because divorce is the ultimate example of just running away. And, while your kids probably will not pull out a gun in the school cafeteria, long-term sadness and a lingering inability to connect to other people is an irrefutable result of divorce. It’s something that you can prevent.
Great article.
The posts in response are painful to read, so predictable, so cliche.
I found this blog via Cathy Meyer on Divorce Support on About.com.
There is also a link to your post the psychology of quitting. I skimmed your site and can really identify with you. I am a professionally trained musician, have stayed home and homeschooled (my kids are grown now). I can even identify with the farm stuff as at one point I wanted to homestead and imagined a life like that.
I have to say that abuse in complicated and divorce is multifaceted. I am divorcing my husband after years of abuse, most of it so confusing and subtle (although he is far from subtle) that I only recognized it after leaving. There is no easy leaving when children are involved. What I would like to say to you after reading both the above posts is that I thought I was thriving. I homeschooled, I ran a part-time music contracting and teaching business. I saw myself as strong and capable. But in the end the stress of being treated like a non-person, of constantly trying to bolster my sense of value with a husband who needed to devalue me, cost me my health. Now after 2 1/2 years away, I understand that my mind was “not right” living under that kind of stress. I don’t think the type of abuse is what matters, it is the inability to find rest, a place where you can recover. And if you ever wonder if what you experienced is abuse, believe me, I wondered too, but now that I feel normal, calm, just like I am really myself, I KNOW it was and that it was far worse than I imagined. Divorce is awful and it is awful for the kids, but the legacy of ongoing relationships with bullies is every bit as damaging. Sometimes there are only hard choices, and the road ahead leads to where you don’t want to go, whichever road you take. Leaving a marriage is leaving your life behind, not only the spouse. That is why, I think, women stay. You are building a future. But the longer you stay, the more you have to rebuild when you get out, and the older and more exhausted and ill you will be. I am so thankful I got out, and no, I am not selfish, immature,just sane. And I value and cherish the relationships of good marriages I see around me. As a farmer and gardener you must realize, if you water a weed you will get a bigger weed! My marriage did not thrive from the care and nurturing, it only grew a stronger bully.
God, Penelope, this Farmer marriage thing has really shoved you headfirst off the deep end. Husband punched you? Stick it out for the kids! Yeah…right. Makes total sense.
My best friend just found out her husband is a paedophile. Should they have not got divorced? How on earth do you work through THAT? What a sickening article to read.
I’m a kid, and I disagree. My parents divorced two years ago, and that sucked. However, both parents are a lot happier now. My brother and I had a rough couple years but it’s mellowed out recently. I understand that they weren’t happy, and it’s okay what they sacrificed, sometimes. We’ll find our own happiness later, my brother and I. But it’s good they’ve found theirs. Right? Surely it was worth it?
I’m unclear. In the beginning of the article you said you divorced 4 yrs ago but by the end you said you’re trying to work it out in the marriage…can you clarify?
Marriage hasn’t always been the social norm and in matriarchal communities, it’s still not practiced. Children are raised by the community and they turn out much more emotionally healthy & better of than most of the USA. It’s not who loves you or who raises you, it’s how much love & support you receive. “It takes a village…”
To the author, I’m sorry you feel so jilted and bitter over your divorce; however, I wished for most of my life that my mom had the courage to leave my father, and I’m now 34 and in therapy trying to get over all of the damage they did with their fighting and name-calling (90% done by my father who I’ve cut off all contact since turning 18).
Also, BPD is being taken out of the DSM with its next publishing. It’s too broad to describe a mental ailment and is overly used.
Oh irony! Check out the ad on this blog for a divorce attorney. This is hilarious!
What the FUCK are you thinking, saying that kids are better off being KEPT in a marriage where their mother is being physically abused???
I believe divorce and all these family issues are all because of lack of religion in our lives, we turn to the celebrities, tv hosts like oprah for advice when our creator should be the one giving us the best advice.And we should focus on finding that true religion, that true god that only wants best for us.
Im sorry but none of this made any sense apart from the fact that your poor husband is trapped and your dragging your poor kids through the mud for nothing.
Domestic violence is a huge deal and Im sorry but letting your kids not only watch your husband beat you to a pulp and then turn on them for trying to help you is not acceptable. No amount of boundries is going to save your life when hes pissed off because it suits him. Its not a 50/50 thing you can be the most kindess caring person in the world you can do absolutely everything he asks for never arguing to try and keep things calm it doesnt matter what you do he will still beat the shit out of you. the only selfish thing about divorce lady is you.Do your husband your kids and yourself a favour and sign the bloody papers.
I appreciated the article until it got inaccurate. Domestic VIOLENCE is not 2 spouses who “fight”, it is one who chooses on their own to physically violate another human being and not a thing the other spouse can or cannot do has even the possibility of becoming CASUING THAT WHICH IS METED UPON THEM.
I did EVERY SINGLE THING you are supposed to do when you have a disordered, abusive spouse: I detached, got counseling, walked out to my front lawn EVERY time he needed to come give me, a trained, educated lawyer, a talking to, I never responded to verbal abuse (I wrote it down, recorded it on tape BECAUSE I knew and had been educated by my dom viol agency that NOONE will believe how he chooses to speak and act behind closed doors) I made him get counseling, he was easily diagnosed as a malignant narcissist with sado masochistic tendencies and he quit counseling, pretended he was still going but was instead “shopping mat. lawyers” moving money and going to every single personin my support system and telling them that Iwas doing to him all the things he was actually doing to me and the kids.
Still i did not seek a divorce, I kept calm, kept in therapy, refused to ever engage, respond in ANY way except to GET AWY from him whenever he would begin his verbal assaults upon me (I even crawled betwen his legs to get out of the room where he physically cornered me and would not let my by.
He got worse–he threatened to tie me up with duct tape and stick me someplace in the house where no one would find me so I would have to pee myself in my pants–in front of my daughter he said this. He tried to smash me in the head when he saw me writing down the horrendous threat he had made. He threw me off the chair in front of my daughter.
I prosecuted him, he testified and corroborated EVERYTHING my daughter and I had said–the police found the broken things, the pages I had tried to write down the threats in the garbage by our side door as he had cleaned up the room to make it look like nothing had happened when I locked myself and my daughter in my room and called the police.
HE went 7 months and NEVER sought visitation rights at court DESPITE BEING A PRACTICING ATTORNEY–he instead filed for divorce seeking custody and my house and to have me pay him child support. I still urged him to go to counseling–he came and he play acted he was serious–we went for many months until the counselor said–enough, drop the divorce or we do not continue, this is absurd. He chose the divorce–he bankrupted me in divorce court,
Yes he is mentally ill–i believe he snapped at the birth of our daughter that year–the before and after pix of the birth show 2 different men. His and my families enable him so he will never great help–the abuse , stalking, slander, invasion of my personal life NEVER ABATES though the divorce was done a year ago.
Your “statistics’ about 50/50 are total bullshit–90% of batterers are men, so too 90% of malignant narcissists are male. You do everyone a disservice by perpetuating the idea it takes 2 to fight.
IT DOES NOT.
You show yourself to be dysfunctional because healthy adults do not issue blame and judgment as if that is a normal thing to do–it is not.
Domestic violence is NOT a 50/50 resposibility (except for *possibly* the argument that the spouse has a cycle of choosing abusers and needs to break that cycle). An abuser is an abuser ~ it won’t stop b/c the abused spouse stops “picking fights” (wtf?)
Read Lundy Bancroft ~ Why Does He Do That? And Patricia Evans ~ the Verbally Abusive Relationship.
Penelope,
I am a new reader. I have read that you were in marriage counseling – are the children in therapy so they can process what is going on? I appreciate your honesty.
This is a good question. The kids were already in therapy, before all of this. One of the results of having grown up in an abusive household myself is that I have trouble trusting my own judgment as a parent. So I have the kids in therapy so that I can having a professional, looking over my shoulder, making sure that I am making good decisions for the kids. I think of the kids’ therapists as sort of on the team that is helping me be better in all of my life. The therapist can’t really change the kids — the kids are too young — but the therapist can tell me what the kids need from me to be their best selves.
Penelope
It puts a smile of my face to read what you are doing. Seeking out help and building a ‘team’ of support for you and your children. Engaged parenting.
“I have trouble trusting my own judgment as a parent.”
Again, such honesty. Thank you.
I ask this because during my own separation and divorce, we saw a therapist as parents together and also had a therapist for our son who was in the same practice. I failed at providing a home for my son with his father. But he was in therapy for a year and a half, and though our situation it was not ideal, and still is not, I truly believe the therapy provided an outlet for him to process his emotions in a safe place. He did not internalize his anger and hurt as he would have otherwise. He was able to say this is mom and dad’s problem, it was not me. He was hurt and angry with us. He didn’t blame himself. It is all not as neat and clean as this but I know it helped him.
And now my two cents on divorce – mine anyway.
I got a divorce and I was almost all of the above: I was in denial. It was terrible for my child. Two homes suck. I was selfish. I was dumb.
I also didn’t know what I was doing.
I was in denial about my own life. I was not and was never really present in my own life. I married a man who was the same way. Outwardly we seemed fine. But we were two people who were scared of living in an authentic way or having any kind of real intimacy with each other. Hell, we weren’t just scared about it – we did not know how to do it. *We didn’t know how to do it.* We saw therapists. But we still didn’t know how. The dysfunction was too deep.
I was also an addicted person. In my life and marriage I was addicted. Addicted to denial, people pleasing, a tiny smattering of chaos, and paralyzing internal anxiety. When I collapsed I just became more passionate in my addictions because I was looking for some kind of relief, any kind. That is what desperate people do. I didn’t do drugs, but I started with the internet, and moved on to even more vacant, but addictive relationships with people and technology. People pleasing started to get the ax.
My ex-husband said…I gave you my whole heart…it was then that I realized I did not have a whole heart to give him.
I did not have the capacity to love him. I did not have the capacity to love myself. I had no idea what I was doing. In hindsight I was pushing away the safest relationship with a man I had ever had in my life. But I didn’t feel emotionally safe with him. Because I could not even trust or feel emotionally safe with myself. I wish I could have had this revelation when we were married and not 6 years later – but I didn’t. It didn’t work that way.
So this is too much information but I don’t care.
I had to stumble upon this this website by this woman named Penelope. She was ranting about Leo Babauta. But I looked at the side bar and she was talking about The Farmer. And homeschooling her kids like I have always wanted to. And her words hit me in my gut and I started connecting some dots with my own experiences.
During my separation from my husband I met a man who was from Wisconsin who had a lot of farmer in him. From a lineage of dairy farmers and pilots. Had to love him. How could I not?? I was hopeful and happy for Penelope that she had found something great with her Farmer, something unspoiled, because the relationship with my Farmer did not have a happy ending.
What is it about Wisconsin. It still breaks into my reality from 1,000 miles away. I have always lived here in the south. I wanted to put Wisconsin behind me. But it is still in my face. Holding out connection and truth. Thank you, Penelope.
When you said that your marriage counselor told you that your marriage to the Farmer was hopeless because you two were not capable of having intimate relationships and that both of your past families of origin dysfunction was too great – it hit me where I live. That was my first marriage. Instead of staying put to figure that out I escaped to my own Wisconite farmer. And it was a lovely escape. It was escapism and addiction at its painfully blissful best until it destroyed us. You don’t learn intimacy with someone who lives 1,000 miles away. Fantastyland works real nice, til it doesn’t anymore. My ex recently married a woman who has family in Wisconsin. He has taken my son there. My son absolutely loves cheese curds. Go figure.
Thank you for the space to share.
what do you say for the person who is in a marriage and it’s 1 sided… for the girl who wants her husband there when she is having surgery and he choses not to be there..what to you say to the girl trying everything from therapy, to date night to writing letters to show her husband she really wants this and is here and he doesn’t respond well to the letters or the dates or therapy and is stone walling…do you suggest the girl keep giving it her all then? for what? staying in a marriage that is one sided is stupid…if the spouse you have chosen to spend forever with isn’t really there…then I support the spilt…
You remind me a great deal of my mom.
There were a lot of times when your average American woman would’ve divorced my stepdad. He never hit her, though, and maybe she would’ve then.
But brave woman that she is, my mother stuck it out.
My sister and I are much better off for it. After he raped us both, after years of emotional abuse warning signs, I fell into a depression barely skated through the rest of high school after being a straight A student, then dropped out of college. My sister doesn’t much talk to men at all and doesn’t feel safe alone with one, even one she knows really well, because, well, we knew Mike pretty well since he’d been married to mom for 10 years.
So now that I see my mom about once a year when I’m dragged (by my sister; forgiving little thing, always has been) and desire to be absolutely nothing like her in any way, I can look at your post and say: well, damn. At least she might’ve justified it with studies!
Also, my mom doesn’t get correlation not equaling causation either! She’d have drawn the same conclusions from those studies.
(Say, did you know that more educated women are less likely to marry in the first place, and much more likely to have married older? It’s almost like the lack of divorce rate is from a) more carefully weighed decisions b) the wisdom of age and lack of peer pressure and c) the years they spent getting an education are years they didn’t spend in a marriage, shrinking the years available to spend in — and tire of — a marriage. A lower divorce rate among educated women isn’t proof that sticking out a marriage is the smart thing to do. It proves that smart women are more likely to have done it, relative to those in the survey pool, than not, for a wide spectrum of reasons.)
And this is somewhat of a tangent, but it’s really getting on my nerves when people point out that having a mental illness is kind of like being a normal person! Look at this normal behavior, mental people do it; there must be something wrong with it since I can stretch the DSM definition to include this behavior I don’t like! Maybe we should treat both mentally ill people and divorcees as people! …nah, that’s insanity!
This is disgusting.
I grew up in a home where my parents refused to divorce for a very long time. Staying together for me meant that my dad endured much more abuse than he would have if he had just left my (completely insane) mom. Instead, he suffered in silence, only for her to eventually leave him anyways–and get full custody, despite being batshit. The American legal system–you’ve gotta love it.
Abuse happens. Saying it “goes both ways” to justify your world view is without reason, and worse, damaging to the people who would believe you–and to the children who have to watch the two people they care about continue within a cycle of abuse.
Leave the bastard. Don’t think yourself righteous because you don’t give a damn about your rights as a human being, and don’t kid yourself–what you’re putting your kids through is far worse than a clean severance, and equality of visitation. The scars you’re creating in them will never heal–not ever.
Well said.
Yes, P, I like your post in general but have to disagree. I was sexually abused by my father, my mother did the right thing in leaving even though she was an alcoholic and abusive herself. I went through the same with my ex, abusive, and have often thought, yes, I could protect my kids more if I stay with him, but no, I won’t grow enough to do what I came here to do, so I had to leave. My spiritual and personal growth was stunted and even though it’s hard on the kids, it’s important for women to be empowered. Women should not keep staying in disempowering relationships. This creates the same patterns which will be passed down to the kids. I know divorce sucks on all accounts. I counsel women in this area daily. But allowing men to abuse and dominate is not the alternative. That would not have helped my sons either. Instead it is teaching them that you cannot be angry and treat women like crap.
Also worth noting, that we have soul contracts with our mates and our children. Some times, we cannot negate that soul contracts have beginnings and endings. Even our kids have soul contracts to be with one parent or the other for a period of time to learn certain lessons. Living in conflict is not healthy. At least when my kids are with me, they are loved and life is orderly. When they are with him, or us both, it was chaos. My children are learning what love is because I left. And when they become adults they will get to choose themselves if they wish to repeat ancestral patterns or choose love.
I agree, there’s too much divorce, and I do counsel a lot of very immature parents who have young children to stay together for the kid’s sake, at least for a period of time, till the kids are older. But these are not abusive cases. These are cases where the parents are acting dumb, as you say.
We have to be careful as women, no one can tell a woman to stay in an abusive relationship. To me, that is very dangerous.
Wow. This is not meant as a insult, but if you spent half the time on your marriage that you do on this blog, somehow you’d be in wedded bliss.
Granted, I’m a guy, so I’m looking at things from a guys point of view. Which includes learning a bit from 3 sisters, a mother, a stepmother, 2 ex-wives, and being the custodial parent of my son since he was 3 (he’s 19 now).
Women, especially in American culture (I’m a WASP), are brought up thinking they can have everything. News flash- you can’t. Oprah has sold you a bill of goods. You can’t have the six figure income, the corner office, the perfect husband, be multi-orgasmic, have 2.5 kids, be a size 2, etc., all at the same time. You just can’t. There are tradeoffs everywhere in life. Deal with it. Learn to work within those boundaries sometime.
The Universe wasn’t built to conform to your expectations. Find your own personal zone of happiness, and relish in it, and at least to a certain extent, learn to get along- for life is short. If you write about it, and your expectation thereof, all of the time, you sure won’t live it.
You won’t torture your kids with that expectation either..in all senses.
Does the name ‘Susan Powell’ mean anything to you? Yeah, you’re right, lady– divorce is always bad for the kids.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Susan_Powell
Thanks for this post. I have to admit I stopped reading your blog like four years ago. I think that was around the time of your divorce and I was irritated by some sort of flirtation/escapade you had written about with a fellow co-worker or someone connected closely to your work at the time. Yes, I judged. Today, your blog was linked into another article a friend sent me. I clicked on it and have been reading your blog all afternoon. This post really moved me because I got a divorce seven years ago after having an affair (see, I was actually judging myself when I judged you…and I realize you weren’t having an affair…but it’s all linked in there for me). I have many of the same feelings you do about divorce after having been divorded. I didn’t even have kids and I feel this way. I also come from a family where getting a divorce was the norm and I felt the consequences of it, as a child, an adolescent, and now as an adult. So…thank you, Penelope, for showing the courage to say something is really not so cool — something that you’ve been a part of at some point in your life. That’s how it works, indeed. And, thank you for inspiring me to start blogging under my own name again. I’ve been blogging for about four years and the last two years have been under an anonymous name and more private profile for what I now think are “silly” reasons. All the best to you.
I think most people are taking this out of Ms. Trunks context. My ex wanted out because he was bored. I’m not over weight, fat nor did I with hold sex. I was always asking for it. He just wanted out. I cooked every night for that jerk. I stayed home with the baby. So don’t be so quick to leave because your bored. People give up to easily, and society has made it easy.
I didn’t get divorced from my wife because of the infidelity. I divorced my wife because I didn’t trust her any more and I didn’t see how to get that trust back. She gave no indication that she wanted to get back to that trust position.
She was lying to me, she didn’t seem to want to stop lying, and I couldn’t tell when she was lying and when she was telling the truth.
When you have kids, the kids come first. People who say that they weren’t happy in the marriage are usually people who are not happy, no matter what. Getting divorced because of not being happy is a selfish thing to do.
I have stayed in the same house and it has absolutely tanked my career, but I am not going to mess up my kids lives by moving to a place where there are better job prospects.
My parents didn’t divorce, but for many years I wished they would have. I spent more time in the public library as a child and as a teen as in their living room.
I’m a noise sensitive person, and I can’t stand people arguing, or loud TV or screaming or anything alike. All those noises were a daily annoyance, and one of the reasons why I’ve never felt home at their home. There was always one or even two TVs on, and often the radio. Even and especially when no one was watching or listening to either. Then they always argued about stupid stuff. Even if I wasn’t hit (that often), I would have felt much more peaceful with either parent individually, not with both of them arguing in an apartment full of loud noises.
Meanwhile many of my friends had only one parent, and they had much more peace and quiet at home. I envied them.
I also more or less decided not to want to get married based on the married life I had seen. Rather single than that if that was the expected “joy” of being married.
Penelope writes…
1.”Divorce is a cliche among people in denial” – while she continues to deny the reality of her abusive marriage and her lack of responsibility to her children.
2. “Divorce is nearly always terrible for kids. Your case is not the exception” – while she continues to ignore the immense life experience and research that points out to the FACTS that living in an abusive home is ALWAYS terrible for children…and while she continues to insist that her case IS ACTUALLY the exception.
3. Where does this leave the kids? – uhm…have you asked yourself this about your children Penelope??
4. “having two homes sucks” – having two healthy and separate homes is ALWAYS better than having one unhealthy, toxic and/or abusive one.
4. “Divorce is for dumb people. Divorce is for people who can’t think ahead enough to realize that the cost to the kids is so high that it’s not worth the benefits the parents get” – while she continues to justify HER reasons for staying in an abusive marriage, and also while she continues to insist on ignoring the cost to her children because the benefits to herself are so high.
5.”Divorce reflects mental illness” – her conclusion from reading “tonnes of books”…her thinking that has time and again proven to be distorted and unrealistic has led to her (startling and inaccurate) conclusions about mental illness. Newsflash Penelope – your twisted logic about a correlation with no research to back it up (because it does not exist) does not a reasonable conclusion make.
Penelope you are so sad and deluded I keep waiting with dread for some terrible news about the violence that may one day cause unliveable consequences to your poor, innocent children.
Source – seven years of therapy with DV survivors.
LOVE this article, it is absolutely how I feel. Divorce is a cop out. And my soon to be ex is Narcissistic / Borderline according to my psych. And the way they only think of themselves and not of the actual harm and costs to the child, it’s mind blowing. Thank You for providing an opportunity to be able to acknowledge I am not alone in my perspective on Divorce, and the unnecessary fallout. Definitely will increase my chances of a permanent relationship the next go-round with an educated woman!!
I love you. I really, really love you. Okay, I don’t -but were we in the same room-I’d give you a high five. Not that you’re even going to read this-but I had dear god I had to let you know I agree. People get so uppity. God forbid you think of your children when your spouse gets their head stuck in their ass.
“The person who is bored and wants out.
So many people get divorced because they are bored. This blows my mind. Your kids are not bored with your marriage. Your kids need boring at home in order to have the necessary foundation to fly outside the home. If your kids are focused on creating their own stability bouncing between two parents then the kids can’t focus on figuring out who they are while they grow up. They have to spend their time figuring out who their family is. And that’s not fair to your kids.
A job absolutely 100% cannot make you happy. A happy family can make you happy and it’s possible that nothing else really even comes close to making a person happy.
So instead of messing up your family in order to make yourself happy, keep your family together and use your job to address your boredom problem. A fun job can make your life more interesting. Your spouse is not in your life to make you feel interesting. Your spouse is there to love you and raise your kids with you. Don’t ask for anything else.
If you want to feel more interesting then go do something more interesting. And come home for dinner.”
Awe I’m so glad someone has a senseable brain on their shoulder. It infurates the he** out of me with so many damn divorces are happening simply mainly cause (sorry but I feel it’s more wives then husbands) wanting a “divorce” simply cause they are “bored”. Are you effin seriously KIDDING!!! If your so incapable of handling a little “boredom” in your marriage I’m guessing every time then your job gets a little “boring” or mundane your just going to quit your job every time your “bored”. GROW UP!!! Life is not all ROSEY, Life is not all hunky dory and all “fun”.
Maybe a solution would be if couples get “divorced” for a stupid reason such as “boredom” or mundane maybe that should go on a public record for employers to see so then employers can see if your giving up on your marriage cause your “bored” employers should be nervous as he** to hire an employee that get’s divorced cause she/he’s bored, cause every time the employee get’s divorced are they going to up and quit? I’m sick and tired of couples (mainly women) just throwing in the “towel” on marriage simply cause they are “bored”, thinking like a two year old that there is that something “better” out there. I can’t wait for divorce laws to change, get more strict and make it much harder to get divorced and make couples work their marriage out and not just throw in the towel.
“Maybe a solution would be if couples get “divorced” for a stupid reason such as “boredom” or mundane maybe that should go on a public record for employers to see so then employers can see if your giving up on your marriage cause your “bored” employers should be nervous as he** to hire an employee that get’s divorced cause she/he’s bored, cause every time the employee get’s divorced”
I meant in my sentence “as he** to hire an employee that get’s (BORED)cause she/he’s bored, cause every time the employee get’s divorced”
What I hate about divorce is the way the parents lie about it. We live in this ultimate world of lies, lies, lies that divorced parents use to justify screwing over their kids.
“It was better for the kids that I got divorced” — yeah, what a frigging lie. Unless your spouse was a druggie or really violent (a very, very small percentage) that’s BS.
Hey divorcees, let me tell you a simple fact. Your kids will see though your lies. They will see that you screwed their childhoods for essentially selfish reasons.
Your children WILL judge you, and they will judge you harshly. When you are dying in a nursing home somewhere, and they don’t visit, get a clue you idiots. You screwed them over by divorcing, you lost their love by being selfish. Now they are abandoning you, when you are old and vulnerable, the way they abandoned them when they were young and vulnerable.
You reap what you sow. I hope that all those parents out there who got divorced for essentially selfish reasons, when you are old, you look at the cold, hard looks in your grown children’s eyes, and you will realize that they have judged you. And you deserve it.
Meanwhile, those parents who made the sacrifices necessary to stay together “for the kids” will be old one day, and they will be surrounded by children and grandchildren who will look at them with love and care. And they will know that sacrificing their own happiness, to protect their children, was the route to love.
What you reap, you sow.
Penelope, this is a great posting and I am going to be sending some of the couples I work with to read this post. Unfortunately, in rare cases divorce is a necessary evil (particularly in cases of violence).
I have experienced the immature and selfish attitudes you talk about too often in my work with couples. These attitudes are presented as if they were the most reasonable and mature decisions parents could possibly make. What about the children? What about the “lifelong” commitment? What about honesty and integrity? What about taking the more difficult path of fixing what is broken instead of replacing it? You have presented the argument beautifully and I will recommend this post.
You might also send people to my marriage-friendly Twitter at @efgunz. Thanks. -Frank Gunzburg
I have seen it before.. My cousin and co-worker had both went through a divorce and although they love their kids dearly the wife made it so difficult to see them and made them pay mass child support. she was not cooperative at all when the only fair thing was to cooperate and compromise and do it for the kids for gods sake!
Hi,Penelope
I am a junior at college and I actually take a class of technical writing during the summer.My technical writing teacher makes us visit your blog and we actually fall in love with it.But personnaly I feel atttracted by your comments regarding “Divorce”which is a cancer that gangrene our society.Quite frankly,your commments inspire me to think about starting a ministry on emotional healings whenever I’ll go back in my country(HAITI).Certainly I am not quite interested on all subjects on your blogs ,but social cultural religious and businesses issues mattter to me a lot.
I hope one day I’ll be a very good technical writter like you do.
Be blessed.
Gerard.
OMG! You are so right! This is all so true. I did not have time to read all the comments but i can say that i look good and i was cheated on for years. I left him after 3 years of cheating but after a few months asked him to come back. He said NO! Now he has a girlfriend and sees the kids every other weekend. I am so sad. the kids are sad and all i keep thinking is that my kids’ lives are ruined. 5 children will never have a mom and dad in the same house again! how terrible. How selfish of both of us. If i could turn back the clock i would never have left him.
Never have I seen so much mis-informed rubbish on one page. I almost stopped reading when you blamed the school shootings on divorce. How one can have such a simplistic view on complicated issues is beyond me.
Instead of ranting from here to mars, I am going to leave you with some constructive critisim:
Research. Research is incredibly important. Not only from newspapers. I myself am an avid reader of online news but when something really catches my eye, I still do extra research on top of that.
Divorcerate.org is not a reliable source, I don’t know who told you that it was.
Try something like:
American Psychological Association – For psychological studies.
census.gov – For statistics provided by the US government.
Try to avoid biased websites. Inaccurate information is incredibly harmful. You have access to the internet then you should do it. E-mail or call domestic violence shelters if you must.
A college degree doesn’t automatically equal intelligent. Passing calling everyone who didn’t go to college dumb is very ignorant.
I agree that people should work on marriage where they can but you have to look at things realistically. A marriage won’t work when only one of the parents is trying their hardest to make it work. You can’t force a person to change, especially if that person is abusive.
Abuse is never ok. We are not all the same people 10 years into a marriage that we were to start with.
And sometimes no kids are involved, so there is not that entaglement either.
Keeping bad marriages together is often a great way to create misery. That can be terrible for children too.
I love your article!
I’m now struggling NOT to get a divorce from my unfaithful husband who just found “happiness”.
I was in search of reasonable arguments to keep the family together (yes, even if he’s dating a “smarter” woman – smart is the term he uses to describe her.. breast.. I think).
Particularly, I find difficult to convince him the children (8y and 3y) will suffer! Thank you for the links to detailed materials about the effects of divorce on kids.
First, I am a non native English, just in case of my grammar. I am from Holland.
Mrs. Trunk, you specifically refer to “mental illness” and mention BPD in your article. Related to this, the article “how a Borderline love relationship evolves” (see http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm ). It has so much similarities with my experiences.
As background. I have had a relationship for 30+yrs. with a lovely woman, 2 kids, D20 and S17. December 2010 in an “uncontrollable emotional outburst” of her, she blew up the marriage, leaving us devastated and left the house within 2 weeks! It was the 6th time she did so… (on a Sunday I didn’t want to go for a walk, reason for her to blow it up…) On age 18, she left her family in exactly the same way and did not want any contact for 9 years!
In retrospection, some orange flags since the beginning, red ones since 2007, as all her behaviour has all the similarities of “high functioning Borderline”. Similarities(!), as she refused to get in therapy (according to Randi Kreger => Stop Walking on Eggshells, denial is their primary characteristic).
In divorces a mental status is not questioned, unless diagnosed, “disrupted” will be enough in Holland. Based on my story (in a blink of an eye 30+yrs literal were gone) my lawyer recognised many of his cases. Most high conflict divorces are initiated by those with “such treats”, are responsible for difficult co-parenting afterwards, even resulting in PAS-syndrome with their kids!
In these comments there are almost no experiences of men. I can’t find postings related to mental illnesses.
Most of the comments are a denial of the real reason for divorce, except those where ( severe) home violence, drugs and alcohol are mentioned.
Surveys (US and EU based) reveal the 75% applied for divorce are women!
The common reasons are based on “feelings”, such as we grew apart, there is no chemistry anymore, etc. so not to be defined, not even in couples therapy (reason for therapists to “ignore” and offer a therapy starting from scratch, the time when sparks were flying, just based on the “old” basic feelings of attachment known to mankind).
Reasons given by women are in fact deflected by them, “using” the interests of the kids as main reason… (It is better for them, I am good mother, I take care of them, they will survive, getting stronger because of it, etc.)
Deflection, as kids are, as per definition the real victims! Even as adults they carry that wound, they have a higher rate of divorces themselves, question long term relationships, are less able to solve conflicts, results at school decline, etc. Who said it was better for the kids…? As I said deflection…
Deflection, as I really do not think most of the people initiating divorce questions their own role in these disasters.
How were your “old” days together?
What did you do to poison the relationship?
What did you do to change and save it?
Where and why did it go wrong?
What do you really want, in a realistic way?
Did you discuss it in a calm, firm and adult way?
I speak of 30+yrs in a rewarding (although with orange and red flags), but in the last years a very difficult relationship in which I almost lost my self esteem (BPD’s are know for conflicts and drama’s, even high functioning). So with all respect to anyone, as I really can’t see behind your front door, fight and fight for it!
As I did (wanted to get old with her, despite!), learn to know yourself, your role, your behaviour. Have a real interest in your partner, look and focus on your common goals (carve them in stone), spent time together(!) as in the early days of your marriage(!), and above all, listen to each other in order to get a better interaction.
Maybe “old fashioned” thinking, marriage is not a “business contract” as many believe, although society intent to play down the importance as it suits… Marriage is total responsibility on both sides to work on a daily basis, specially when kids are involved. Who wanted those kids in the first place??
O, your needs? Your freedom, happiness, personal growth, money, independence etc.?
Do I hear deflection again? I remind you! Whose choice was it, who made that commitment, who was free of will, who wanted those kids?
So who’s responsibility is it? You have to invest to earn any reward, didn’t your parents told you so…? I guess they did since you were a child! It’s even more simple than that divorce.
As our saying is: “a child can do the laundry, although it have to be an adult to do it”…
Although there’s a few valid point hidden deep in this post, it’s also deeply flawed because it doesn’t allow for the complicated shades of grey that exist in every situation. Everyone is trying to do their best and make the best decisions, Penelope doesn’t get to decide that divorce is wrong for everyone.
Whoa. Just WHOA. Check out my response to this diatribe on my blog samesides.wordpress.com. Some of you people need a different perspective, apparently.
Terrible, terrible article – possibly one of the worst I’ve ever read. It’s overly simplistic and many assertions in the article are simply not true. There are plenty of studies showing that a high-conflict household is worse for children than divorce, especially in cases of abuse. There’s a lot of truth to the idea that a happy parent is a better parent. Marriage is a partnership, and if the other person isn’t willing to work with you, there’s not a whole lot you can do. I used to wish my mother would divorce my stepfather – he was physically and emotionally abusive. She would have done me and my siblings a huge favor. I think suggesting that no one with kids get a divorce is immature and selfish. Grow up, Penelope.
THIS IS THE 21ST CENTURY!
I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT YOU CONDONE WOMEN TO STAY WITH VIOLENT PARTNERS. SOMETIMES ‘REMODELLING’ ONES BEHAVIOUR IS NOT ENOUGH TO CHANGE A VIOLENT, ABUSIVE PARTNER.
VIOLENCE, ESPECIALLY AGAINST WOMEN, IS INSTITUTIONALISED IN OUR SOCIETY AND SHOULD BE SEEN FOR WHAT IT IS. ITS ABOUT POWER AND LACK OF SELF CONTROL.
CHILDREN WILL NOT BENEFIT FROM LIVING IN A VIOLENT HOUSEHOLD – HOW CAN THEY?
My parents divorced 40 years ago and I’m still sad about it…
For me, marriage is meant to illustrate the mystical union between Christ and His church, and between husband and wife. Thus, I won’t dare do it. Just sharing my own thoughts and faith :)
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