Zero tolerance for domestic violence is wrong
It’s been four days since I documented my own domestic violence, in almost real-time, between me and the Farmer. The most common response I’ve heard is some variation of: “Zero tolerance for domestic abuse!”
And you know what? I have zero tolerance for things I am not prone to tolerate as well. That’s easy, isn’t it?
It’s much harder to see the issue from the person’s perspective who has the issue.
I’ve spent days reading the 500 comments on my blog and the comments about my situation on other blogs, and I’m absolutely shocked by the collective hatred and disdain for women who are in violent relationships.
Here’s what someone said on my blog: “Victims of domestic abuse suck at pressing charges.”
Yes. It’s true. Women don’t like to press charges. Because they love the guy. You, maybe, are unable to fall in love with a guy who is violent. Good for you. But do you have to hate women who aren’t like you?
For some reason, people feel it is honorable to rip a woman to shreds if she is living with domestic violence. Here’s an example from the comments section on James Altucher’s blog:
“[Penelope Trunk is] out of her mind to think that her children are not being abused. She, in fact, is as guilty of that abuse as the farmer that beats her.”
The high-and-mightiness that emanates from the public discussion of domestic violence is breathtaking. Everyone is an expert. Everyone knows what’s right.
Here’s an example from the comments section on Jezebel, a supposedly feminist community that is full of anger towards women who live in violent households.
“No one gets another chance to hit me. I don’t care that I have the training to fight back.
“One incident, and YOU LEAVE. Violent people don’t get better without a lot of work, and it’s not *your* problem. Once someone raises a hand to you, you owe that person *nothing.* It’s likely that the violent behavior will escalate. Sometimes it is deliberate. Either way, YOU LEAVE.”
This person sees everything very clearly. If there’s abuse, you leave. Even if it’s small. Because all small abuse gets huge.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that if the guy hits you twice, the kids are better off living in a single-parent home and hearing their dad called an abuser. What people do say is that the odds are it won’t stop. The odds are it will get worse. The odds are, the kids will be worse off, in the end, having lived with the dad.
But the truth is that we do not believe that men who leave two, visible marks on their wife should lose their kids.
You know how I know we don’t believe this? Because if Child Protective Services sees two bruises on a kid at two different times, the kid is not removed from the home. Think about it: Is that kid better off with parents who might be able to stop, or in the Foster Care System for the rest of their life?
So we are making bets, right? Is it better to leave, because it is likely to get worse? Or is it better to stay because the benefits from things improving, although unlikely, are huge?
I’m in the startup community. It’s the world of high risk. You bet big on yourself, you kill your family’s credit, you put your house on the line, and maybe, just maybe, your company will make it.
So why wouldn’t I bet big on myself now? I am not the whole problem in my family, but I am half. And over the last year I have described multiple situations where I was half the problem.
I can improve my own half and see what happens. Have you been to couple’s therapy? There’s a saying that a marriage is a gear system. If one gear changes, all the gears change.
Blog commenters will argue against this idea by telling me not to change because It’s not my fault.
But really, how do they know? We know that I grew up in a home where there was lots of violence. So it’s likely that I will be in that kind of house when I’m an adult. And surely it’s possible that I am contributing to the mix since I am statistically likely to create a violent household. Here’s another thing: You don’t know what I did leading up to the bruise in the photo.
I’ll tell you what my mom used to do leading up to my dad hitting her:
One night they were wallpapering. They had been wallpapering the living room after work for a week. My mom got mad at my dad and threw red paint all over the wallpaper. Ruined all their work. He didn’t respond. He was stunned. Then she knocked over the table with the wallpaper and the glue. It ruined the newly varnished floors. He held her arms so she couldn’t do anything else. He held tighter and tighter. She kicked him to get loose. She left no mark. He hit her in the face.
If she blogged about it, and showed the hand print on her face, she might get 500 commenters telling her it’s not her fault.
Should she leave with me and my brother because our dad is violent and we should not live with him? Or should she work on her own behavior to see if she can single-handedly stop the violence?
I think the most grown-up, good parenting thing for her to do would be to understand her own behavior and stop it so that me and my brother could grow up in a home with both our parents. She didn’t do that, of course. She had little insight into her own behavior and she and my dad ended up taking most of their anger out on me.
My mom had good choices she could have made because, in fact, part of the domestic violence was her fault.
“It’s not your fault” completely limits a woman’s choices, because you are saying that she is powerless to control the situation. And if you tell every woman “it’s not your fault” then they can’t improve. How do women get better at not creating a violent household? Probably by changing their behavior. This doesn’t mean “always tiptoe around your spouse and become a mouse”. But it can mean a wide range of positive changes.
We are all growing personally. It’s not your fault is almost always a path to no growth. It’s what Oprah founded her show on, right? Personal responsibility. Why don’t we go there, first, before we go to “it’s not your fault”. The truth is that if we take responsibility for the problems in our lives, we can solve the problem. If we blame other people, we are always running. People who blame other people can’t get along with siblings, can’t get along at work, lose friends quickly. People who facilitate that behavior say, “It’s not your fault.”
Most of the success of my blog comes from my reliance on the idea of personal responsibility. There are no bad bosses–it’s only you. If you can’t get a job it’s not because of the job market, it’s because you are unemployable. And you can fix that. Your heavy workload is not because someone gave it to you — you gave it to yourself. People like what I say because I show them how they can fix anything when they take responsibility for fixing it. That’s what I truly believe.
And that’s why I’m staying with the Farmer.
First off, zero tolerance for domestic violence and exclusively blaming the abuser is usually wrong. I agree with you there.
That said, domestic violence, particularly by men, is dangerous because it tends to escalate if it is accepted in the R/S and because men tend to be significantly stronger than women. Hit/no hit is easier to deal with reliably than ‘don’t hit hard enough to kill’. So, it would be wise to take these incidents as indicators of danger in the R/S. There is the potential for you or your kids to end up dead.
Third, I know a woman who resembles you in many ways. Please consider the possibility that some of your issues (eg., following around the Farmer) are more similar to borderline personality disorder than Asperger’s. The two conditions can be comorbid. Given your prior history, it is reasonable to guess that you may be more than half the problem.
Don’t you think it’s kind of ironic that there are so many people here using abusive language while telling you to have zero tolerance for abuse?
Lastly, although not excusable, if you resemble that woman, perfectly decent men may be strongly tempted to abuse you after being screamed at, verbally abused, and possibly threatened by knives for 30+ hours.
Obvious conclusions are that both of you should take responsibility for your problems, be in therapy, and that both of you need to learn some new behaviors to handle conflict.
Farmer doesn’t sound like the guy who’ll beat you to keep you submissive. He sounds like the guy who doesn’t have the kind of emotional tools/learned behavior to avoid escalating your own abusive behavior.
You thinking is flawed.
Penelope, Zero tolerance for violence is not stupid. Here’s where your thinking is flawed….You do NOT cause the violence by things you do. Yes, you probably do a LOT of things that irk the Farmer, and that make him angry. That’s it. People in relationships do things that make their partner angry. I’ve been married almost 34 years and I have dome some really, really stupid stuff..but my husband would never, ever hit me. The Farmer, on the other hand, responds to being angry at you by violence. He doesn’t know any other way. It’s not you, it’s him. Yeah, you will continue to do and say stupid things and he will hit you. That’s a fact.
Wow. Kudos to you for having the courage to write this. I completely agree with you. Life is lived in shades of grey. How many people with a zero tolerence policy have violated that policy and they are just not admitting to it?
My husband and partner of 10 is a combat Veteran with some extreme problems….one of which is alcohol. Last summer, when he was out again till closing time, I got angry enough to march to the bar around the corner in my PJs and pull him off a bar stool. He landed quite hard, hard enough to leave marks anyway. Some how, on the 30 yard walk home he called 911 and showed off the marks and had me arrested on an assault charge (he was mostly angry because he had 2 hours until closing time.) Long story short, judge dropped the DV charges and shortly after, with the help of a VA counselor, he entered a residental program and is doing much better. Thank goodness that neither one of us has a ‘zero tolerance’ policy or a decent man would probably be drinking himself to death as we speak.
Fact: shitty things happen, people have problems – sometimes they get fixed and sometime they don’t. But the dogma of a ‘zero tolerance policy’ really doesn’t solve anything or boost your self esteem at the end of the day…but it does give you a much easier out than you woukd otherwise have. I’ll never fault someone for taking the out – but to have ‘policies’when it comes to complex human relationships just seems weak.
I grew up in an abusive household. I wish my mom had packed up her bags and left. But I am of course speaking in retrospect, so had she left my dad then, I am not sure I would’ve understood then – I am not sure if I would be angry today wishing she didn’t leave, and believing things might have worked out. They are still married today, things are still not working out, but we are still hoping someday, it will. Is it better to raise your kids in a messed-up and constantly abused household, or a single/lonely/sad household? I don’t know. You weigh your pros and cons, and you make a choice, and since you have only one life to live, that choice defines your life and greatly shapes that of your children’s. Such is life.
I grew up in an abusive household. I wish my mom had packed up her bags and left. But I am of course speaking in retrospect, so had she left my dad then, I am not sure I would’ve understood then – I am not sure if I would be angry today wishing she didn’t leave, and believing things might have worked out. They are still married today, things are still not working out, but we are still hoping someday, it will. Is it better to raise your kids in a messed-up and constantly abused household, or a single/lonely/sad household? I don’t know. You weigh your pros and cons, and you make a choice, and since you have only one life to live, that choice defines your life and greatly shapes that of your children’s. Such is life.
Also – your children don’t need to be smart, or musical, or gifted, ALL THEY NEED IS TO BE LOVED, in a HEALTHY MANNER. That’s it. Do whatever you can to give THAT to them and their life will be ALL SET.
Penelope –
While I believe you have the absolute right to decide what is right for you and the farmer as consenting adults (although I feel compelled to add I am of the zero-tolerance for violence group personally), what troubles me immensely is how your marriage interactions imprint on your two boys.
From reading your posts these past several years, I know you love your boys fiercely. I know you prioritize their well being over just about everything else on the planet, and the energy and time you expend each week investing in their education, growth, and creative-musical-entrepreneurial-farming explorations speaks an encyclopedia’s worth of action truly manifesting your deeply-held values.
Given that, I would like to encourage you to rethink what it means to have your two beloved sons growing up in a home with the violent fights you have with the farmer. No matter what you say, the imprint of living and watching you and the farmer emotionally and physically hurt each other is what your boys will develop as a template of what a “normal” relationship looks like.
You are very open about growing up in a physically and sexually abusive household that also had domestic violence between your parents. You are well familiar with a destructive dance of anger in intimate relationships, and I believe that’s at least part of the reason why you and the farmer have engaged in domestic violence between yourselves. I ask you to PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE think of your sons and the future intimate relationships they each will have with their own partners. If they continue to grow up in a home with you and the farmer engaging in violence, you can virtually guarantee your sons will also choose partners and continue this pattern of interpersonal violence themselves.
If you can’t make the break from the farmer for yourself, I hope you can do it for your two boys.
Posted with genuine care, concern, and respect for all 4 of you –
Thank you, Penelope, for being one of the few voices, men or women, courageous enough to write about this in such a nuanced way. I grew up in a sometimes violent household as well. I knew my father’s outbursts, a loss of control on his part were wrong, but I also saw the provocations. I knew that one form of abuse I saw was more emotional, and one was more physical. Both were wrong.
Very thoughtful post.
The point Penelope makes about personal responsibility being the only way of affecting one’s relationships reminded me of that Love Languages book. One of the central arguments of the book is that once the in-love feelings die down, the only way the relationship can last is by choosing to love your spouse in the way they prefer and part of that is figuring out what things make them feel unloved. But that is hard to implement in this society. We are fed this idea that love is all about what makes me feel good right now, so forgiveness is weakness. But holding grudges doesn’t protect you. It just makes love impossible. What kind of life is that?
Penelope, good luck with the farmer.
Just a thought: ever heard the maxim that women are attracted to assholes? Any chance that’s happening with you?
You’re a very strong, smart, and capable person – you’re not crazy, just coming from a bad set of experiences – my heart goes out to you and I understand your struggle – because I have experienced “just” emotional (non-violent) abuse, and boy, was it hard to get away from that and stop blaming myself for what was happening! Ultimately, though, my experience says that leaving was the right thing to do, so I hope you will read through my lengthy 2 cents of opinion!
I see why you take issue with the way people phrase things in mainstream life as well as in the anti-domestic-violence community. I see that harshly blaming the victim is utterly wrong (those people who did blame you aren’t being helpful at all!), and you’re making me think that blaming just the perpetrator is probably as wrong for long-term healing processes – “guilt” in general is not a very useful concept here.
It may help to phrase things in yet a different way – allow me to elaborate, and see whether you can agree with that. Please read to the end:
A social dynamic in which violence and abuse are happening is wrong and harmful to everyone who is involved.
It doesn’t matter who caused it to which proportion – it must be ended as soon and as thoroughly as possible.
A break must occur, and each member of the dynamic must work out their issues on their own, possibly with professional help or at least with the support of people who are not highly emotionally invested in those persons’ social success.
(This means no parents, because they raised you and will always feel that their own success or failure depends on your success or failure – and especially no parents if they were involved in an abusive dynamic themselves! Ideal supporters would be close friends who are themselves in a stable social situation – though these may be hard to come by).
If this is followed through, the people involved have the chance to heal, work through their bad experiences, and change behavior patterns that are harmful to themselves or others. This is difficult or near-impossible while remaining within a relationship that consists mainly of these harmful patterns, though!
Maybe a resumption of the relationship with a better dynamic can occur, but I think it’s difficult not to fall back into bad old habits with the same person over again, so looking for a different relationship may be better.
Even if breaking up hurts because you still love each other, and even if leaving feels impossible because you’re afraid of the consequences, and you feel that you’re partly the cause, it is my firm belief that you should leave a situation that is harmful to you as soon as you are physically, economically, socially and emotionally able to do so.
Try to find a support network of real-life persons in physical proximity – shoulders to cry on and couches to crash on.
Divide your finances and income sources from those of your partner (I’m not a regular reader so I don’t know if this is already the case).
Have a backup plan that involves your parents as little as possible.
These are the things I had to have in order to break out of my borderline abusive relationship, and even with them in place, it took me several months from first realizing I wanted/had to leave to actually leaving.
I can’t even fathom how much matters are complicated by having kids in the mix. But I do actually believe that a healthy one-parent-household with backup from a vibrant social community is better than an unhealthy and isolated two-parent-household – where “healthy” ultimately means having worked through all issues that led to the parents’ breakup so that no hard feelings towards the other parent remain.
To summarize, or TL/DR: Blame the bad social dynamic, not the persons involved in it, but work towards ending it nevertheless!
I am concerned for you but I respect your choice and hope for the best. Here’s to a better 2012.
Woop sorry Pen about the profanity in my earlier comment.
OK, I’ve been reading up on Aspergers since my daughter has been having trouble in school. And I’m pretty sure I’ve got it too.
Know what? Aspies live life on their own terms. Asking them to change is like telling them to rewire their own brains. It’s exactly this trait that attracts people to me. And scares them a little.
So Heck to the Yeah do what you’re gonna do.
Please look at these and consider whether or not they sound familiar before you make the steadfast decision that you can work on this or that you are at fault in this or that you should stay. I dont know all the details of your relationship and its nuances. I do know I have heard women say many times what you are saying, and it still gets worse. Just consider this info.
http://www.ncdsv.org/images/SafePlace_PowerControlWheelDisabilities_2011.pdf
http://www.ncdsv.org/images/PowerControlwheelNOSHADING.pdf
You paint a terrible picture of life. You have no business giving any sort of advice if all you do is admonish, terrorize, and pass off rationalizing keeping yourself and your kids in an awful situation as ‘sound life advice’. All those ‘supposedly feminist blogs’ that are ripping you to shreds are doing it because NO ONE should follow your life advice. Take care of your mind, body, and children. Don’t make excuses and perpetuate the cycle of hating and blaming yourself for abuse.
Thank you so much for this post. I’ve been going through similar discussions in my head as some in my family are suggesting that I am a victim of slight emotional abuse. However, I respectfully disagree since my husband and I are both very strong willed people and most “outsiders” to our relationship have no idea of the inner workings/struggles. How can any 3rd party REALLY ever be all knowing In respect to two individual’s relationship.
It also does not offer me much confidence that the people who are offering this insight are in marriages that I loathe.
My husband has gone through some pretty traumatic events in his life and he personally struggles with them on a daily basis; it is a cause of very much frustration. I understand the pain he goes through and most of that frustration comes out in the form of anger. When looked at objectively, it is not anger toward me, but personal frustration of the circumstances he is in because of these traumatic events. In 8 years of marriage and 10 total years of relationship, I have learned to decipher between his frustration at the past and his frustration with me and I can say without a doubt that we are both ABSOLUTELY better off because we are still partners.
This is all to say that I applaud your openness in this matter and I greatly appreciate the vulnerability you offered to the all-judging Internet. You are a stronger individual than most!
I hope you read all of these comments, and I doubt I’m going to say anything new here, but first, I have a story to share with you.
I have a good friend from Boston. One day he and his wife went down by the water to see an aircraft carrier that was docked and on display…apparently there was a big event or something there. They went down by the water – the way they knew to get there, and drove around for quite a while, unable to find where the carrier was or how to get close to it. Finally they asked somebody where the carrier was and he replied “look behind you.” My friend did, but all he was what looked like a massive grey wall with no shape, no details…it blended in perfectly with the rest of the nondescript buildings by the way. Then they realized – there should be no buildings there…there should only be the Atlantic, a clear shot all the way to England. They had been driving right next to the massive carrier the whole time and never realized it was the ship.
I think this is the situation in which you find yourself. So close to an incredible issue that you can’t really see it in totally.
Look, nobody has the right to hit you. Period.
This is severely affecting your children.
You need to leave. You need to leave. You need to leave.
As someone who was a victim of domestic abuse from my parents. You’re right, abuse is not a one-way street, but it’s about power and control. When someone feels they must physically control you, there is no clear boundary any more for what is appropriate behavior in the relationship. I think you’re severely deluding yourself and I really don’t find anything you have to say since you quit Brazen Careerist to be that insightful or great. I’m done reading your blog, thanks.
I’m curious.
When do you think we should tolerate domestic violence and abuse? By whom, to whom? I’d really like to know. Is it a formula? Or something less defined?
Great that you’ve had the courage to be honest about your process. I’ve dropped the word ‘blame’ from my vocabulary altogether. It smacks of finger pointing and judgement to me. Responsibility feels much better. Therein lie the seeds of empowerment.
I also blog about domestic abuse, thankfully as someone who has escaped it. It’s definitely not as simple as saying, just get out. For me I had to understand the mechanics of how I got sucked in in the first place. A turning point came when I stopped trying to run away and committed to the relationship and to myself at the same time.
I definitely feel my child is better off out of the abusive family setting. If I’d just left and hadn’t gone through the growing process first (and continued growing) I would have just ended up replacing her Dad with another abusive guy or getting enmeshed with my dysfunctional family of origin (almost as bad).
Being a single parent really isn’t all that bad. I find it much easier than being in an abusive relationship, but you have your own path and nobody knows what that is but you (one step at a time).
You may find some of my posts of interest. I write about how taking responsibility for my financial issues impacts on my self-esteem and my relationships.
you might like: http://moneytreematters.co.uk/?p=201
and:
http://moneytreematters.co.uk/?p=547
They’re very relevant to this post.
I really, really, REALLY hope that you are just writing for attention. And, boy did it work.
I also hope that when CPS shows up they also find that it was a joke.
Penelope, this is my first ever comment on anyone’s blog. First of all, I found you a mere 2 days ago or so and because of you I made up my mind to start my own blog and yes, I notice you have read this sort of comment before as I noticed through other posts and that is huge, to be able to influence people in such a way, with simple word magic oozing your determination and it empowers people. It is a gift not many have.
My heart is heavy with compassion right now. Probably not what you expect to hear but I recognize myself in so much of what you describe in terms of drive, self preservation, personal growth, multi tasking and perhaps even some of that manliness which you perceive as character strength.
I have suffered abuse all my life and to meet me you would never think I was feeble, abused, weak, insecure, indecisive and needy of support but I run into an internally beautiful partner some years ago who was able to really break down all the crap about me which I did not realize belonged with me as part of my package in my seeming always gracefully on top of it even when in rock bottom situations.
I won’t go into too it right now but suffice it to say that I was shielding and an aweful lot too. I have been known to be inspirational to others around me at my worst times, I have been known to make something out of nothing when others had tried and failed and overall I have accumulated so many pick-me-up tactics along the way that being resourceful is now part of who I am, directly because of the abuses which I suffered, stemming from hard on emotional abuse, to no-touch-torture, to isolation and much much more all carried out to confuse my relating to others and distorting my definitions of acceptable behaviour and non.
No expert can help. They declare themselves experts of something which they themselves have not experienced so in these eventualities people such as yourself and myself become the “real” experts and are then able to view other situations with a broader outlook. Recently I was watching a video of a lady describing her years of abuse and she made a point which to me was huge and explained something to me which I thought was a natural gift of mine of sorts, instead it has roots specifically in abuse. That is of being able to take in in as much as 44% more detailed information concerning our surroundings than those not abused. We end up noticing more, knowing more and understanding more, not necessarily making use of it all for our own direct circumstances but definitely becoming genius in dealing with the strategies of others primarily and of sorting out our own reviewed path modes. This knowledge fools us into thinking that we can perhaps face much more than others can, and in some ways it is true, but prices are paid with this overload and it isn’t an overload because perhaps you cannot deal with it, because I am sure you can and clearly are, but the main thing which is then neglected is You. The real you.
Bottom line, you are a Woman. Quit reacting for a moment and just be fragile. Be pink. Be still, even for one moment. Break down if you cannot handle being still and get the urge to once more have to deliver what others are expecting of you. The world continues undisturbed nonetheless. Let Farmer rediscover your sensual, feminine fragility and without words let him take control of something, let him decide to take you in his arms and give you a warm, loving and protective embrace, reaffirming his masculinity and his role and if you cannot look in his eyes for a moment or so, it’s ok too.
Sometimes it really is as simple as letting go and simply being.
All this talk about having people medicated and the mentioning of disorders and what not, is all very tragic. People have no idea how these proposed titles affect society at large and are primarily used to create separation and isolation. Half of the people who mention medicating others have no clue as to what these meds have in them nor do they have any actual proof that these disorders do in fact exist, else the medical community itself would not call them disorders, but rather diseases or illnesses. Sheep’s labels.
I may be making no sense of all this as really I am not used to writing posts on such things and replying to such personal issues. You have lost some people on this thread and you have gained a new reader and follower. We lose some, we win some. Whatever! I personally like the analogy of being on the plane and before being able to assist others in case of an emergency, I have to ensure to put on my own oxygen mask before attempting to assist others with theirs. So simple, yet so true.
Best of luck P.
And…as reaction to the comment before mine, this is precisely what is going on in society. The zero tolerance factor is used and propagated only with final financial interest at the end of its chain and it mainly targets women and children, People should learn to mind their own business before commenting about the “welfare” of the children of others, since the same people have NO way of knowing nor telling nor do they “chase” any case of children eventually put in care. CPS are not what the general public believes them to be and I say what and not who because they are an entity. First of all, let’s start from the base fact that CPS is made up of people whose backgrounds and psychological or psychiatric profiles are ever made known to the general public, nor does the general public choose their reps in such roles after due vetting. It is ridiculous to blindly trust and believe that any such set up has more interest in the welfare of the child than loving parents do, “naturally”, full stop. They should prove their case before representing anyone, just as a parent has to prove themselves when confronted by them. To anyone lucky enough not to have anything to do with CPS in any country, continue believing what you do at the peril of kids, if that’s the comfort zone you can attain with your conscience, but don’t judge, don’t comment and most of all quit acting as the hidden, social branch of neighbourhood spies which land children in these scenarios. Start reading about organized paedophile rings, child trafficking and governmental corruption into the constant fuelling of these programmes acting under the guise of social assistance. Quit the sheep talk when it comes to children, this really annoys me, as we are failing to protect our kids and funny enough the same over medicating talk and stigmatizations are more so prone once kids are in care and consistently do worst off. Not the right thread for this, but really, some of you readers update yourselves! Check this out as a little intro and understand that this lady was assassinated in the US for her involvement in trying to fight against CPS as a Senator! P, keep your kids very very close to you and try to shield them more, less exposure is probably best! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPskpY2UaUE
I completely agree with you, i had never thought about ot like that, but what you say is the genuine truth.
One thing is important tho, if you work on the part where you’re to blame and it still happens, i do think you should get away from him.
Hi, Penelope. Sorry to read of your trials and suffering. I am not going to beat on you–the world will do plenty of that without my help.
I do agree that you do need to do your part, e.g., therapy. I also agree that the farmer need not have his kids taken away.
But I also feel very strongly that this situation now transcends both of you and involves others–your children–who are, indeed victims and witnesses to behaviors that are really detrimentally transgressive. It is not ok to employ violence to make your point. There are very few instances where violence is ok.
I am an ENTJ hypomanic, and I probably make my husband nuts, but he has never physically abused me. I am not saying this makes him or me better than you or the farmer, but it does mean that we have an agreement, a social contract, that we do not transgress for the sake of our child. Well, for our own sakes, too–he didn’t hit me before the kid came, either.
You guys want to kill each other, have at it. I am not saying that trivially. You are not bound by any rules when you are by yourselves.
But you have a moral obligation to draw the boundary for your children, who neither asked for or want to be the witnesses to your “stuff”.
The concern I have is that you are perpetuating the transgressions brought onto you by your family of origin.
This is worthy of some reflection and consideration. I hope you don’t take the tack of, “If it was good enough for me, it was good enough for them.” Or, in the case of my addicted parents, “We were better than our parents, so you did better.” This is just a rationalization for difficulty managing impulsiveness.
Maybe focus on the Aspie stuff–managing obessiveness, getting help with the social skill deficits, etc. Learning to manage it with whatever help you need.
As a hypomanic, I spend MANY years in therapy–single, joint, cognitive behavioral, etc. I could benefit from prophylactic meds, but me and my trusted beloveds try to honor my wish to not go there by working up a game plan in case I start to get episodic.
Can you build in some trapdoors, some safety nets, some toolkits that can help you before you reach the point of major transgression in front of your kids?
Maybe focus just on that for a while, lift all judgments and see where that goes….
Good luck.
I wish we had zero tolerance here in San Francisco. Our newly elected Sheriff was arrested on 3 counts of domestic violence. I am circulating an online petition urging our Mayor to suspend him pending the outcome of his trial. I would really appreciate signatures and advice on circulating the petition. Thanks. Maria Morgan
http://www.change.org/petitions/sf-mayor-lee-toss-ross-suspend-sheriff-mirkarimi-now
That is a very different and interesting perspective. thanks for sharing. would not have thought of it that way.
This is ridiculous. No one ever deserves to be physically hurt. There are so many millions of other ways to resolve conflict.
No matter how many ways my husband tries to push my buttons sometimes, hitting hurting is never an acceptable resolution. No matter how mad my kid makes me, hurting him is never an answer. I insist on zero tolerance for myself and my loved ones.
Either you need some serious counseling or this is a sham. If this is serious, please take a moment and Google “Cycle of abuse”
So I’m coming back to comment again over an hour later because this blog entry just makes me mad.
You go out and research so much information to give out career advice. Go read what happens to kids who grow up in abused households. They become abused or they become abusers. DON’T LET YOUR KIDS GROW UP IN AN ABUSIVE HOUSEHOLD DAMNIT!
You get mad because people call you out after posting about your experience. Well I read the comments and I read the other articles that you referenced that mention this article. The VAST MAJORITY of people support you. Yeah there were a few jerky comments. It’s the internet. I’ve sure you’ve encountered a few trolls in your blogging days.
You need to stop making excuses about how you deserve this treatment and make it stop. I’d love to hear what your therapist had to say when you had your next session after you posted these two stories. I’m sure he or she had something to say about it. You are calling out for help whether you realize it or now. People are answering – You just don’t like what we are saying…
If you’ve honestly evaluated the risk/reward on this and are willing to go for it, I can only wish you well.
Back in the 60s and 70s, Mom was very good at leaving abusive guys. I wonder if she would’ve been strong enough and gutsy enough to blog about it.
Penelope,
You need to do what you think is best. You’ve analyzed it in great detail; while I can’t say if it’s the best decision or not (because I don’t know), I admire your making it.
Penelope
There is a small group study called “Life’s Healing Choices” and it is a step study of 8 choices that a person can make that is life changing to the individual without being dependent on another person to change. It is in a book form that you can also read but is best done within a group with an accountability partner that sees the value of what you are doing and walking with you. The author is John Baker and you can go to a website to find a functioning group near you at purposedriven.com It is really a study on focusing on freedom from hurts, hang-ups and habits…. something we all have.
I will agree with some of the commenters that have said it’s your choice on whether to stay or not.
I will even allow the possibility that the Farmer might have his own Asperger-like issues, in which violence such as this is fairly common (I have an 11-year-old Aspergian daughter that’s got a short anxiety-based temper and a mean right hook.)
That said, there is ABSOLUTELY NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THE FARMER TO HAVE USED VIOLENCE AGAINST YOU for something like “talking too much”, for something not involving physical self-defense.
And even though I abhor violence in general, my gut instinct for those who victimize others, simply because they can, is to take a baseball bat to them. There’s simply no excuse for this behavior in an adult.
Penelope balance is crucial to life… not veering from one crazy extreme to another. We have seen divorce going rampant and creating sickness in our culture as a whole but we don’t then veer to the other corner where we stick to a dangerous situation to fight the divorce epidemic. We don’t be peacekeepers at any cost we be peacemakers that make for true peace in our lives. There is an awesome small group study based on the book called “Lifes Healing Choices” by John Baker. It gives concrete choices that we can make to find freedom from our hurts, habits, and hang-ups. This is for someone who has finally come to the point in their life where they realize “I can’t control the insanity in my life and my life is unmanageable”. A small group near you can be found by going to purposedriven.com. This group connects you to people who have come from all sorts of struggles, so there is no judgement. You can even hear true testimonials of people who have been where you are at. The great thing is relationships are of utmost importance so you won’t be forced to toss a hard relationship but helped to bring restoration to that relationship…. not by sheer willpower but by healing choices and a supernatural power not your own!!!! Thousands have found healing for their life. It wouldn’t hurt to be open-minded and try something new. Insanity is doing the same things we have always done and expecting new results (:
Ok, I can only hope Penelope actually reads this comment since the post was so long ago, but:
Everyone in the above comment thread is missing a key point – this is not an either/or situation.
The fact that Penny’s dysfunctional background prevents her from having good judgment on her relationship does not automatically imply that every decision she makes is bad. This is a binary decision with only two possible choices (e.g. she can either leave or stay with her husband). Even if she used poor judgment to decide between “leaving” or “staying” it is entirely possible that she chose correctly just by pure luck.
The “correct” decision for Penny hinges on one question, and one question only: whether the Farmer is truly committed to learning how to manage his anger in nonviolent ways. The fact that Penny feels at fault for provoking him has NO bearing on whether she should leave or stay.
Nor does the fact that she sounds like she’s trying to reassure herself that she made the right decision to stay. (Remember, she’s very unsure of herself on relationship issues regardless of whether she’s right or wrong at any given moment – thus, she may have agreed to give her husband a chance based on his commitment and hers, but she would still feel unsure enough that she feels the need to reassure herself in public. This does not mean that she made the wrong decision, though it doesn’t mean she made the right one either.)
Likewise, Penny’s attention-seeking blog behavior has no relevance to whether she really should stay or leave. It’s certainly one among many other issues she needs to work on. However, it’s wrong of us as readers to condemn her for it. Point it out, yes – Penny herself admits that maybe that would be good for her. But we should be understanding, given her background.
I’m pretty sure Penny knows when she’s crying for attention, doesn’t want to admit it to herself (and knows that, too), and wishes she could stop. I’m also pretty sure she does appreciate the supportive comments, even if she chose to only address the hostile ones, and I’m also pretty sure that she recognizes exactly what she’s doing/did by addressing only the hostile ones. Even in the pattern of which comments in the above thread she chose to reply to (italics), she only replies to comments that she can agree with. It’s obvious that she’s avoiding the ones that probably really hit a nerve on her.
There are lots of things going on, and no matter what we want to call it (Asperger’s, narcissism, borderline personality disorder, whatever), this stuff will clearly take a long time to fix. I think Penny knows what her issues are, and is doing her best with them, regardless of how much is directly acknowledged. We should give her only our sympathy and whatever limited insight we could have from afar. I hope in the coming years she and her family will gradually untangle each of their many problems, and find their happiness.
I agree with you, just because a fight gets physical doesn’t automatically mean a relationship is doomed (although that is what society teaches us). I’ve been in a relationship for a long time, and about 3 years in we had a bit of a rough patch – he pushed me down to the floor, I punched and bruised his face, he punched the fridge , I broke a glass… Not our finest moments. But we stuck it out, grew together and got through it, and I am so glad we did. Obviously in a case where someone beats the crap out of the other person I would say pack up and leave. But for us, there was a better and stronger deeper and more meaningful relationship waiting on the other side. Nobody is perfect, and people can change if they want to. I also think it is very brave of you to share your story – I admire you for that and I wish you the best <3
Throwing paint on the walls and floor does not deserve a punch in the face.
Essentially what you are saying is that your father had the right to punish your mother for her bad behavior. Her behavior while angry was not a crime – his was. There is a huge difference.
help raise support and awareness for the voiceless victims of senseless violence – band together against the cowards who beat up their helpless wives and children..
http://www.voicesagainstdomesticabuse.wordpress.com
set this as your status to break the culture of silence where women like Annie (read her life’s story on link) suffer almost daily under the tyranny of their husbands..
Hello to all of you,
I am a victim of domestic violence for many years. However, I have turned my terrible tragedies into a triumph. In my efforts to help put an end to domestic violence and its growing effect on so many individuals, I have become the Marketing Manager for the National Domestic Violence Registry http://www.domesticviolencedatabase.org/
Not many individuals are aware that this registry exits, and its continuing success in becoming a partners with several states. We are in need of assistance in spreading the word about the registry and donations, so that we can become a part of the other 40 states in the U.S.
Any assistance from any individual by blogging about our site, and “liking” our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/NationalDVRegistry , would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you to each and every one of you!
We believe in love and equality for all relationships. Please help us spread the word about this film that will raise widespread awareness and educate our young people about Domestic Abuse!
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/113759
I too recently shared my experience with domestic violence on my blog. I made the decision to leave after the first time, but that was a personal decision. For me it was the right choice, it has been 5 years now and I am happy to say that I am now married to the love of my life.
Kendall
http://sexandthesuburb.com/walking-away-from-domestic-violence/
I completely agree with this. Sometimes you just have to let go of a harmful relationship rather than try to repair it. there’s no reason that a woman should allow her own life to fall apart so that she can try to ‘save’ another person’s.
we have to take care of ourselves first before we can help anyone else.
Dear Penelope,
I hope and pray that you are well. Thank you for sharing your life with us. May you be blessed in all ways.
I just discovered you yesterday, when my sister-in-law posted your entry about women getting married around 25 on her facebook page.
I was going to respond to the post that this post refers to when I read it yesterday, but decided not to. I’m grateful that I did, as my first response might have been similar to many of the others and I feel more informed after reading this http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/01/penelope_trunk_abuser.html , which I’m sure you’ve read, and the post that I’m commenting on now.
I’m also inspired by your mentioning that you read ~500 comments, and so my writing this isn’t in vain.
I know that your husband mentions God in Grace and would say Jesus if that were okay with you. So as a family there’s some interest in religion/spirituality. I’m wondering if you’ve explored these paths for personal growth. You mention couples therapy, which no doubt is powerful. I believe that spiritual approaches can be more powerful, and a valuable supplement to therapy.
I would be happy to discuss this with you further, if you’re interested. I’m trained as a coach and you know what that means regarding empathetic, compassionate communication. You can read a lot about my approach on my website.
Some things that come to mind immediately are:
Byron Katie’s “Loving What Is,”
Marshall Rosenberg’s “Non-Violent Communication”
Co-Dependents Anonymous (or other 12-Step groups, like Emotions Anonymous, or Self-Centeredness Anonymous)
A Course In Miracles
May you feel the love and tenderness that inspires this comment. May you know how much you are loved, by God, by the Universe, by your family, by your friends, by your readers, and perhaps most importantly at this time, by yourself. May you grow from strength to strength, to ever greater joy, peace and love.
Sincerely,
Jacob
Domestic assaults and violence are tough things to go through. I am glad that there are lawyers that can help people who have been hurt by this. Many different problems can come from abuse if nothing is done about it.
I can only encourage all of the women here and hope that everything is well for you!
God Bless <3
And some accusers are drunk or devious and lie! May 10, 2011 Restaurant security video captured an inebriated, disorderly Pam ela K. Geldart smashing a laptop and DSLR cameras (worth thousands) then punching Barton Christner three times to the left side of his head while he sat calmly on a bench. Deputy Roberts refused to arrest Ms. Geldart for striking Mr. Christner, but did charge Ms. Geldart with Criminal Mischief (Putnam County Case#: 11-3499). Two days later, on May 12, 2011 Ms. Geldart drunk, retaliated by dialing 911, first lying to the dispatcher, “a couple nights ago he charged me…. he says I hit him, when really he hits me” stating on the 911 call she had “no injury”, was “not in a fight”, and sold her lie further, stating “I want an officer here to see I’m 94 pounds, he’s 220… I couldn’t possibly hit him…. he hits me” and when asked by the dispatcher, why there was an argument, she slurred, “quite frankly I cannot recollect”. She further exaggerated her lies to the dispatcher, stating windows were broken, her car was keyed, she was thrown, pushed, hit, and “had filed 5-6 previous charges” against Mr. Christner. Arriving officers refused to give her a breathalyzer despite Mr. Christner’s request. Officers found NONE of her false allegations to be true, yet cited “zero tolerance” Domestic Battery laws, and arrested Mr. Christner simply in their words, “because she called 911” (Volusia Court Case: 110-821MMAES). Six weeks later, State’s Attorney Diaz finally scheduled his first review of Ms. Geldart’s 911 transcripts, the restaurant video, and immediately assigned “NO INFO” and DISMISSED EVERYTHING. Within those 6 weeks, awaiting the system to review the case, Mr. Christner had wrongfully spent 24 hours in jail, had received a 30 days “no contact” order on his public record, spent $5000 in defense fees, was required due this type of charge to undertake weekly drug testing on-site at a county detention center, meet for humiliating weekly “check-ins” with a probation officer, discovered dozens “mugshot industry” websites can post any false arrest 3am mugshot and each LEGALLY can extort $400 per site to remove the photo? A once stellar career, previous Partner in an international firm, and terminally degreed Digital Media and Photography, Professor Christner’s last day of employment as Professor at Daytona State, not coincidentally was May 13th, 2011. It was later learned, her prior husband, Mr. James Geldart had filed a restraining order against her, but later found himself arrested for Domestic Battery July 8, 2009. Ms. Geldart has more than once, with numerous men, maliciously and vindictively used retaliatory lies, yet with each false accusation, she knows her name and her legal file (by law) remain sealed, she receives free “battered woman” victim services, yet NO FURTHER legal consequence or reprimand? The “Domestic Violence Industry” permits Ms. Geldart to repeatedly engage in a “MODERN DAY WITCH HUNT”, to manipulate and falsely accuse any man, any time, based on NO evidence, and a false accusation alone.
Rather than judge . . . we are trying to organize a day of fasting, prayer and meditation to find more solutions to domestic violence (and make more effective the solutions we have). It’s on October 1st, domestic violence awareness day. Put it on your calendars and if you can, help spread the word. if you have questions, visit http://www.worldwidefast.info. Thanks so much.
Susan Miller
Great article. That’s why you need to show your support and help end Domestic Violence! Please visit and “LIKE” the Official Page of On The Way Pictures new Film entitled “Undeserving Grace”. A-List Talent include Director of Photography Tom Priestley Jr. from known for Barber Shop, and Die Hard! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Undeserving-Grace/279019612138285
Thanks for your important work. My wife and I produced this video using my original song, “Don’t Feel Like Heaven Anymore,” in order to heighten awareness regarding violence against women. Here is the link: http://youtu.be/R7ULJnApayw