Best alternative to grad school
I’ve spent three years writing about how graduate school is a waste of time and money (yes, business school and law school too). So now when radio and TV producers need someone to bitch about graduate school, they call me.
Here I am on NPR today. I don't usually post my interviews, but this one is notable because I completely lost patience for people still defending grad school. It's so clear, even to defenders of grad school, that grad school is a bad financial decision, that this guy has resorted to saying that you need to go to grad school to be a good person. Of course, I went nuts on him.
I think the thing that is pushing me over the edge with graduate school is that people who are thinking straight about schooling are not even considering graduate school. These people are debating if college is a rip off (here’s a great discussion in New York magazine with James Altucher, a venture capitalist in NYC) And people are even debating if high school is useless (here’s a great post by Lisa Nielsen who is with the NYC Department of Education). And anyway, I’m losing interest in the debate about grad school because I’m convinced that the future belongs to home schoolers because they are self-learners.
Also, for those of you who keep telling me that there are some fields you absolutely have to have a degree for, check out the song 99 Problems by Jay-Z. The song includes great legal advice about Miranda rights, racial profiling and search warrants, even though he doesn’t have a law degree or a creative writing certificate to prove his poetic talents.
Click this link for an attorney’s analysis of the advice in the song, but here’s an excerpt, attorney’s advice in italics:
The year is ninety-four, in my trunk is raw
In my rear-view mirror is the motherfuckin’ law
Got two choices y’all, pull over the car or (hmm)
bounce on the Devil, put the pedal to the floor
And I ain’t tryin’ to see no highway chase with Jake
Plus I got a few dollars, I can fight the case
(Not running from the police seems like excellent advice.)
So I, pull over to the side of the road
“Son, do you know why I’m stoppin’ you for?”
Cause I’m young and I’m black and my hat’s real low
Or do I look like a mindreader, sir? I don’t know
Am I under arrest or should I guess some more?
(In general, not volunteering information at a traffic stop is great advice.)
In the comments section on the NPR site, people complain that I'm bitter and angry and offer no alternative to graduate school.
Here's the alternative: Admit that adult life is scary because there is no clear path to success. Grad school is not a quick fix for the fears of adulthood. Instead, be grateful for the chance to be lost — it means you're living your own life, because no one can make choices in the exact same way you can, whether they are right or wrong.
So all there is for adult life is you, following your nose, trying to figure out what brings you joy. Each time I see someone who has done that, in some little way, I feel relief and hope for myself.
Image from Austin Kleon.
Overall, I agree with you. I would like to point out that I’m thankful for those who go into professions like medicine, etc., because where would we be without doctors?
BUT, I think grad school for just about everything else is a waste of time and money. I may go so far as to say that undergraduate school is a waste for many. One thing I learned years after graduating with my BA is that your professors don’t tell you that you’ll be successful and earn lots of money IF you have the type of personality that thrives in business. I started out in journalism school and my instructors gave the impression that working in the news and/or advertising business was open to all grads. However, I’m an introverted person and found out (later, through real life working experience) that I don’t have the personality traits of those who become stars in these industries. So I think often we’re sold a bag of rocks in college and get unrealistic expectations about where we’re headed. Then when the economy sucks and we end up working in jobs that only require a HS dipolma, we wonder WTF happened here?!
My second point is something I’ve actually discovered during the past six months. I started working for a small college and took advantage of free tuition. I’d been wanting to learn some new computer skills so I signed up for a couple of (undergrad level) classes — mostly for something to do. I also joined a computer software training website, lynda.com, that offers hundreds of online tutorials for $25/month. The $25 was a vastly better investment that the time I spent going to class. My teachers were horrible and I didn’t learn much from them. I have learned a massive amount from lynda and her great instructors.
I think that those who have a passion to learn something will have the motivation needed for self-teaching. I can say now from experience that school is a dead end for me in terms of where I want to go in my career. And I don’t need a degree to be successful and the thing that has brought me the greatest amount of career success — freelancing. I won’t require grad school for myself.
Just my two cents. But this topic kind of got me reeved up because I’ve just completed those college classes and found them to be such a joke.
PS. Another thing: Your success and enjoyment will depend heavily on the instructor you get for a class — something that is often outside of your control. So imagine going into debt for horrible professors. Just another cent thrown in…
Not quite sure why you are singling out Grad School, it is just one extra year, but instead of focusing on the first two years of a Four year degree. Why does one have to take two years of subject matter before getting to their desired field of study? It appears that the first two years of college is a waste of time and money with no payback, its the last two years that matter.
Penelope,
You are brazen and I love it!
After college I watched my friends scatter all over the country, many entering grad school, law school and med school. I honestly believed at that time (when I didn’t know much of anything) that they were doing it for one of two reasons: 1)their parents were doctors or lawyers and expected the same from their kids, and 2) they had no flippin’ idea what they wanted to do!
I went into the Marine Corps straight out of college and really think I got the better education. I learned about hard times, leadership, making decisions and just being responsible. Grad school won’t teach you that.
It’s time for more high school and college grads to take their lives into their own hands. If you’re a parent, give ’em a Swift Kick in the right direction.
Carlos Cooper
A few years after college, when the opportunity arose, I started a business in retail and ran it for 6 years. Now I’m on my way to getting a 2nd Bachelor’s in my 30’s and hope to someday do research in Genetics. I started by taking one course earlier this year to confirm my interest. I’m basically starting over, but this time around, I’m enjoying the journey. My home loan is cheap and I currently don’t have a car loan…so I’m more than happy to invest in my education via student loans because I am thoroughly enjoying the ability to focus on studying. I am hoping I do well enough to have my Master’s and PhD covered by fellowships or assistantships in the future. I do have a family with 2 ‘lil ones and a teenager, so it won’t be easy, but it is possible.
Penelope, could not agree with you more: grad degrees are an enormous waste of time and money. This comes from someone who went to grad school (library science) after the dot com bust out of a lack of opportunities and not knowing what else to do. Creating my own opportunities out of my own interests and passions taught me far more than any classroom ever could.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for this post! As someone who cannot afford to finish her BA, much less go to grad school, I really appreciate this. I have not let my lack of a degree stop me from pursuing what I love to do and even applying for jobs in those fields. Granted, I don’t get many interviews, because people are still buying into the whole “must have a piece of paper to be a productive human being” BS.
For some fields, yes. You do need those advanced degrees, but for research assistant? Editorial assistant? Staff writer? Photographer? Receptionist? (Yes, really–I am seeing this stupid requirement for admin and receptionist positions!) No.
I love your blog, and I always appreciate your perspective. I am aware many people probably did not like this post, and I’m not going to share it on my Facebook wall, because I don’t want to hear it from those among my friends who DID shell out for these degrees. (Just not in the mood today!)
Thank you for validating those of us who “have no papers, but are perfectly capable!”
Very well said, your blog says it all about that particular topic."*,~" http://www.heelsvogue.com/ welcome
I agree with you. I grew up being told that education is priceless and that I should get as much of it as I could. This still holds true – however, I realized that I can educate myself, there are tons of books at public libraries, you can always find people with whom to swap knowledge/skill, and on-the-job training is unparalleled in quality and relevance.
A few years ago, I did not see things this way. I made the romantic mistake of ignoring the financial return on my post-grad education. I thought that higher education was a “good” that I could justify consuming simply because it made me happy (just as some people buy expensive cars even though it’s a horrible financial choice). Halfway through law school I realized that debt and poor job prospects are actually quite important things (aka. once I matured a bit more) and my values changed.
Knowing that I would have educational debt that equals a mortgage and an education which – as knowledgge – wasn’t really worth $150k, convinced me that law school had been a poor decision. It was a mistake that cost me quite a bit, but you live, you learn.
There are fields for which higher education is required (i.e., law, medicine, academia), but I would strongly advise against getting yourself into debt using the justifications that “this is for personal fulfillment; I’m not in it for the money; I can transfer these skills, etc, etc.” If you want to learn, read books, go to talks/seminars, get a job where you can pick up skills that will actually make you marketable – while getting paid! Once you feel the weight of debt on your shoulders, you’ll be amazed at how much your values and perspective change.
If you decide to go ahead and pursue a post-grad degree, make sure that you research the profession that you’re heading into. I made the mistake of researching the schools, but researched almost nothing about the job market for lawyers, their lifestyle, working conditions, etc. This was a huge mistake.
I was not aware about the glut of PhDs in the market until I read some other comments on here, but it seems like the US is just saturated with people with higher degrees and the financial returns on many of them are pretty darn poor.
I know some people are thinking — stop thinking about education as a financial investment, but I’m also sure many of those thinking that are the ones who went to school when the government still supported universities and before tuition grew double the pace of inflation. Things have changed a lot for my generation and we can’t afford to live on the romantic highs that previous generations lived. Demographics have changed and the world around us has changed a lot. Maybe going back to the model that worked in this country some decades ago, where you picked up your skills at work, lived within your means, and companies promoted from within might not be such a bad thing.
First of all, I would like to say that the thought of not paying for a MA or PhD is very appealing, but I will have to disagree. Continuing education is very important to our society and allows our population to be more educated in current events and social issues. As for people can teach themselves….not everyone has that ability to do so and I’m not sure if relying on people to pick out their own material is such a bright idea either, considering anyone can write a book these days and some authors can be very extreme and skewed on their opinion.
Also, how do you compete with someone that has a higher education, unless you’ve worker for years. I find that having invested in a MA or PhD allows you to skip the steps of a person that has a lower education. Having a BA is not cutting it these days with most jobs.
I respect your opinion, but I don’t think it can be generalized and applied to every academic field. If you’re serious about your field than I believe its a great investment. I do recommend that people work before they further their education, since you don’t want to invest your time and money in a field you later realize you don’t have a strong interest in.
I decided to go to graduate school in order to take a break
from the corporate world and absorb new perspectives that are feeding my soul. After 15 years of working professionally in my field (product design), I was accepted to Stanford on a fellowship that covers 75% of all my expenses (school and living). I am almost 40 years old, a new mom and a second year student. Graduate school doesn’t have to be a drain on your finances if what you bring to the table is as valuable as what you are signing up to learn. I think going back to school as an “older student” can be tremendously invigorating in an intellectual and spiritual way.
I just wanted to throw out a question: Why did you attend graduate school, Penelope?
I’m inclined to agree with you, Penelope, but for one thing: my grad school experience was not only rewarding, but also a complete success as an investment. Admittedly, I’m still not in love with my career (finance manager), but I’ve gotten a couple of nice raises, owe no money for my MBA and I’m finally in a position where I believe I could branch out into an area I find more fulfilling. Still, I agree with almost everything you’ve said.
Well, I just want to say that James Altucher is ridiculous. That guy doesn’t believe in global warming or following the constitution. Without schools, and even graduate schools, our world would be full of idiots. Nobody without a graduate degree has any skills to teach a college course or a medical school course.
Graduate school can be a massive waste of time and money. I know quite a few people who have gone on to graduate school because they don’t know what to do with their lives, don’t want to grow up, enjoy being students, etc.
I went to grad school because I wanted and needed to learn more. At 28 years old, I am now a specialist and one of very few people in the world with my knowledge and skills. My career (research scientist) is not available to people without a graduate degree and this is not due to “skills” that I picked up at grad school but because of specific knowledge that I was taught and now apply every day (no exaggeration) at my job.
Two years ago, I was an indebted grad student. I had to move back in with my parents because I couldn’t afford my rent while I was looking for a job.
I was hired by a large multinational corporation a year and a half ago. The company paid to have me relocated from North America to Europe. I have paid off all of my debt and have started saving. I bought my first home. My salary is higher than my Mom’s (an HR manager close to retirement). Financially, I am in the same position as my friends with Bachelor’s degrees, except that I will be earning more than them in the years to come. I am enjoying traveling around Europe. I am very grateful for the opportunities my graduate degree has given me.
I don’t know if I care about the degree itself, but I’m really glad I went to grad school. It was super intense and project-based. It gave me the chance to develop strategic thinking on a number of national brands, interact directly with clients, and learn from the celebrities of the advertising industry.
Grad school didn’t give me talent or creativity, but it did give me the vocabulary, tools, and connections I needed to be fabulous.
I have a specific reason for going to graduate school. My goal is to one day become a school counselor which requires a graduate degree. I really don’t think one can say that in all cases grad school is a waste of time and money especially if it is a stepping stone to accomplishing other goals in your life.
I’m sure Jay-Z’s thrilled that you think he can engage in critical thought. (By the way, a note on style – that bit of your post read a *lot* like an undergrad cultural studies paper.)
However, as far as I’m aware, Jay-Z isn’t currently licensed to practice law.
It sounds so simple. Yet people drop out of medical, law, business, and other graduate programs in droves. Sure, some of these dropouts will tell you that life just got in the way (a baby was born, a relative became gravely ill, the tuition was too great). But many others will say that they came to realize that the discipline they were studying was, in fact, not their cup of tea. Imagine the debt they could have avoided and the time they could have saved if only they had audited a class on the topic first. Besides giving you a crash course in your field of choice, a one-day or weekend-long conference will educate you on some of the biggest issues professionals in the field face and offer you a far more effective way to network with workers in the trenches than the old “Can I take you to coffee and pick your brain?” routine. Obviously, secondhand experience only goes so far. The best way to see what it’s really like to work in a hospital, at a magazine, or at a landscape design firm is to really work at one.Cheers!
Top School Graduate
http://www.topgraduateschool.org/
To the people who are bashing graduate school, it’s not that simple. And to the woman who said something about parents feeling better about saying “my child is in graduate school” than “my child is waiting tables,” I hope you’re not a parent. Because you obviously missed the day in parenting school where they taught people how to embrace and love your children, no matter who they are or what they do with their lives.
As far as I’m concerned, if someone is working in any legal, legitimate job, they are making a contribution to society. There’s no shame in waiting tables – which the woman who posted about parents being embarrassed about their children waiting tables obviously doesn’t know. Our economy is in an unprecedented downturn, so part of the problem is that older people cannot fathom why younger people are struggling. But guess what? The reason is because the economy sucks and no one is hiring. Older workers aren’t leaving their jobs, which means that young people are waiting longer to assume those positions they are qualified to take but cannot take due to the economic slowdown which resulted in longer work careers for older people. And those in the middle find themselves unable to get raises, career advancement. In short, we’re all stuck right now. The recession impacted everyone, in pretty much every field. Including people in business.
I went back to school to get my master’s degree because I saw two options: work at my employer until I retired in a job I hated with a boss I didn’t like, or take the risk and get a master’s, which is basically necessary in my field for higher-level jobs. (I work in the health field.) So I evaluated the costs and benefits and chose the program that cost the least money, where I’ll incur the least debt. And out of this master’s degree I’ll get a wide range of meaningful, employable skills that will give me an edge when jobs open up in my field.
Also, I went back to school because I have an idea that I want to have a career in health research – so it’s basically mandatory for me to have at least a master’s degree.
I hope this post put some sense back into the conversation. I read some of these comments and I knew things were getting too crazy for my taste, so I had to put some sense back in there. :-)
Thanks
Something else I forgot: depending on the graduate school one chooses, there are other “soft” benefits to entering a graduate program as well. These include: a network of alumni who instantly give you more attention because you attended their school, connections that you make with professors in your graduate program that you can work to your advantage when looking for employment, and an established career services program that assists students in finding jobs.
So despite Penelope’s insistence upon making what appears to be a career out of bashing graduate school, it’s really not as simple as she makes it sound, with all due respect. I think this website could offer more of value if it featured a reasonable, well-argued analysis of the costs versus the benefits of attending graduate school. And it DEFINITELY isn’t only a place where people go if they don’t want to grow up. My colleagues in my graduate program – and I do refer to them as my colleagues – are among the most professional and capable people that I know. Perhaps if Ms. Trunk took some time to meet more graduate students and get a larger sample size, she wouldn’t be so adamantly opposed to graduate school?
Posted by Diana on May 9, 2011 at 6:46 pm | permalink | Reply
“I’m a clinical neuropsychologist, absolutely need my Ph.D. to do this job, and love my job, have no plan to leave ever. It’s my dream job actually, personally fulfilling, highly paid (I have stable salary for my work on staff at a hospital), and I only work 40 hours per week. Top that!”
Okay: an elementary school teacher, 2 week Christmas holiday off, March break off, Summers off, great pay, high level of autonomy, 5 hr. work days, great pay & benefits, great job security for life, and all you need is a BA (or) BS + B.Ed. and Bob’s your uncle!!
I totally agree with Cynthia.
And teaching is one of the very few careers (although it is a profession) where you can actually make a positive difference in the world!!
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Grad school may be a waste of money, unless you get a full scholarship.
I have to laugh. People who wait tables and bartend earn a lot more money than a PhD with no job.
Get real folks.
Enjoy hanging that diploma on your wall, because that may be the only tangible benefit you ever get from spending years and thousands of dollars on a useless education.
Accepting the bizarre, obtuse and viciously anti-intellectual “logic” of this blog post, why would one go to college at all?
Why would a BA be of any use? In fact, why ever enter a classroom? Stay at home with a borderline personality mom who relies on psychoactive medication and who stalks and threatens people who criticize her postings.
That’ll work…except when it comes time to get a job. Last I checked, most employers don’t want to see “Mom’s Livingroom” in the “Education” section of a resume.
My brother is struggling with his Masters.
He opted out of the thesis for essays. His
girlfriend dropped out. I know 2 other people that have quit. This material is
difficult for the brightest. If you struggle and take forever and barely pass it isn’t for you. People are being increasingly pressure to take grad school. Many professor agree many students shouldn’t be there nor need the diploma
Thats make one thing clear, grad school is only relevant to medicine and various science based careers. Law is a funny one since you should only become a lawyer after a few years working at a firm with your undergraduate degree as that would have taught you the theory, just need the experience. Think UK system over the US system. Business School has absolutely no purpose. In my experience people take business classes usually because they are not bright enough to handle harder more demanding subjects. Silly qualifications like the MBA should be seen for the scams they are… CONTACTS! you make your own, if you can’t then you not likely to succeed in business anyway. It doesn’t cost a lot to make valuable contacts and learn bysiness theory. Remember MBA’s usually only relevant to incompetent or snotty HR people who you should always bypass. They are there to conduct your onboarding process and explain your working benefit package, always make contact with hiring managers directly. Can’t do this? Then maybe you are the perfect MBA candidate with no imagination, expecting things to be handed to you on plate. By all means pay your 100k and go though the hr route. It’s a fact that almost all truly successful business people do not have a graduate degree. Only one university for business and that’s the university of life… You also earn money whilst attending usually and no stupid fees to pay salaries of overpaid lectures either.
What’s your recommendation for those with humanities degrees? How do you even get your foot in the door? Go back and get a vocational bachelor’s?
I know people who can’t finish grad school after they paid their tuition. Mental blocks, unrealistic deadlines, difficult teachers and
the inability to master the subject are some obstacles. Make sure you have the ability to complete the program even if you can afford it.
Homeschoolers will definitely rule the world… I’m homeschooled since i was 14, and because of that I have been able to find a lot of myself. I’m just finished school and have enrolled to a part time management course.. (ordinary diploma in one year higher in two) it takes one evening of my week to do minus the research I’ll be doing myself. With the rest of my time I’m looking for a job and pursuing my love of music, photography and video. I know I still have to find something to focus most of my energy to but I still have time to find out what that is. I’m 18. :D
Homeschooling has fed and encouraged my love of learning for one, it has also freed me from always seeking the acceptance and approval of others. I know that to got to where I want to be I don’t have to conform to others expectations.