The idea of paying for a liberal arts education is over. It is elitist and a rip off and the Internet has democratized access to information and communication skills to the point that paying $30K a year to get them is insane.
Ben Casnocha has one of the most thorough, self-examined discussions about the value of college on his blog. He went to college, probably, because so many people told him to. (Here are some good links on Ben's blog.)
Ben left college. Early. And he’s fascinating, and he’s educating himself through experience, which is what the Internet does not provide. The Internet provides books and discussion, so why would you need to go to school for those things?
It’s the time of year when college students start looking for the return on investment for their education: They start worrying about what they’re going to do this summer.
More than 90% of college kids get internships at some point or another, and, whether or not internships are fair (some parents buy them), it is really, really important to have productive summers that can distinguish a recent-grad’s resume.
And, of course, it’s a tough time to graduate into the workforce. Tough is totally relative, though. It’s not as tough to be entry level as it is to be, say, a baby boomer with 20 years experience at a newspaper, or 20 years of experience underwriting ridiculous mortgages. But still, it’s tough to be in college right now.
It would be so great, and helpful, if college career centers could be front and center in every student’s planning. But most career centers are useless, because most colleges presume you still need college to teach you how to think critically. So they can get away with having incompetent career centers.
This is why you should be really careful using career centers – because colleges have this ivory-tower delusion that supporting yourself is ancillary to why you went to college.
Here’s why career centers are terrible:
Career centers cater to companies, not candidates.
Career centers are in the business of booking interviews on campus. They already have the students on campus, so they worry about getting companies on campus. This means that career centers do things that are not necessarily good for students. For example, companies want to compare apples to apples, so they want all the student resumes to have the same format. Career centers encourage this, so that companies are happy.
But if everyone has the same format, then only the students who excel at what is emphasized by the default resume structure will benefit.
So ask your career center for input on your resume, but don’t let them dictate structure to you.
Career centers don’t understand social media.
Most people get jobs from their network, not from a career center. And social media is the fastest, most effective way for you to build a network. Career centers want to get credit for everything they do — it’s their job security. So they want your blog, your domain name, your online identity — everything — to be tied to the university career center. How does this help you? It only serves to limit you in the social media world. You can crosspost to the career center, fine, but making the career center the focal point of your online identity is extremely short-sighted and could only be promoted by an institution failing to put student needs first, or to understand them in the first place.
Career center staff is self-selecting for underperformance.
Colleges have not, typically, focused on career centers as an ROI focal point.
Colleges, especially the really expensive ones, think of vocational school as pedestrian. So they track how many students go on to get a Ph.D in Russian from Columbia, but not how many students get jobs. Therefore, the career center is not exactly the hot button in budget meetings, and it’s not the landing ground for visionaries, because what visionary goes to a part of an institution no one cares about?
Here’s what you can do to make your college investment pay off:
Forget the idea of paying for a liberal arts education.
It used to be that people only did writing and critical thinking for school. So they needed school to teach them communication skills and critical thinking skills.
The generation that grew up with social media is the most effective at communicating of any generation in history. Despite their schooling, not because of it. Students today don’t need teachers who don’t know how to write a blog post to teach them how to persuade people. Because the bar for communication is high, and it’s in the blogosphere, and if you can write a blog post that gets a decent conversation started, then you already know how to write a persuasive, engaging argument.
Pick a school based on their track record for getting students jobs.
Look, did you get into Harvard? Did you have a 4.0 in high school? Then forget paying a lot of money for some chi-chi liberal arts school. Just go to a cheap school and get the degree. Don’t delude yourself that the 40K a year is worth it for a mid-tier school. And, since you’re not picking from a list of brand name schools, make your choice based on their track record for getting their graduates great jobs. (Hat tip: Melissa Sconyers)
Look, I'm not saying school is stupid. I'm one of the people who constantly commented on Ben's blog that I thought he should go to college. But I'm saying that you need to calculate the return on investment on going to college before you go to college so that you make sure you're going to college for rational reasons. Just because the liberal arts education was a default goal to the bourgeois of the last three centuries does not mean that route will work for you, right now.
This post is supported by Ontario business schools.





I think it would be a shame to forget the idea of a liberal arts education, as I think broad knowledge about the world is lacking in our society, and the internet is only an adequate replacement for the most motivated of students.
That said, I think it's shocking that it costs $30,000 – in a cost/benefit analysis this is one sure sign of a broken education system.
I also wouldn't mistake the liberal arts education for vocational training – if you want to get a job then you should do a vocational degree, or vocational post-grad work, or simply get a job that doesn't require a degree.
Posted by Caitlin @ Roaming Tales on January 21, 2010 at 11:24 am | permalink |
It is great that you distinguish between vocational training and liberal arts education. Most students going to college think they can study English, or photography, or some other hobby-type major, and that their degree will get them an interesting job.
Students shouldn't get vocational degrees until they know what they want to study, and they shouldn't study liberal arts until they can afford it – because it IS a hobby.
Some people are perfectly content and self-sufficient to coop themselves up in their basements writing code and remaining blissfully unaware of the world around them. Not what I would want, but who am I to judge? Studying Victorian history is a hobby – you're better off reading books from the library and maybe taking a class or two in the subject than going for an entire degree in it.
Posted by Pirate Jo on January 21, 2010 at 3:29 pm | permalink |
Hey P – great post. I have put more and more thought into this over the past year or so. As a Gen-Y who stopped going to college I found that real life experiences, networks and self education were more important and vital than a college education for my career track.
While I do not doubt the power of a college degree for certain career paths, for me, spending a weekend with mega-investors, or internet marketers or whoever for less than the price of 1 college class can be indispensable.
College is just another part of a previous generation's American dream along with the overpriced mortgage and the white picket fence.
At least for me.
Posted by Greg Rollett on January 21, 2010 at 11:27 am | permalink |
love this post. my husband and i were just bemoaning college career centers the other day, and what a poor job they do to set you up for employment success.
Posted by priscilla on January 21, 2010 at 11:31 am | permalink |
I got a lot of federal aid to go to exactly the kind of institution you're putting down, and I wouldn't do it differently if I had the chance. BUT I THINK YOU ARE SPOT ON. My degree hasn't helped me one iota in the career world, and NOBODY said a word about what I might actually provide for myself when I graduated (without any job skills).
Posted by Janet McK on January 21, 2010 at 11:34 am | permalink |
EXACTLY! I wish more people realized how important it is to be able to get a job out of college – and that getting a job is your ultimate goal, and matters more than the name of the college on your diploma.
Posted by Meg on January 21, 2010 at 11:42 am | permalink |
This is why I love community college so much. So much I went there twice! Once for a Journalism diploma (2 years) and once for a Public Relations diploma (1 year). My combined education cost just under $15,000, which is now nearly paid off because I got a well-paying job right after my PR graduation. I credit that entirely to how career-driven my community college courses were. And we had endless in-school opportunities to participate in extras which added that something special to our resumes.
My new job isn't what I want to do forever, but it is putting money in the bank to fund my interests, and gaining me experience in communications. When I move on, I know I'll have a great set of experiences to recommend me in my next career move.
Thanks, community college.
(Meanwhile, my friends with University degrees are: receptionists (BA)or poor overworked grad students (BSc))
Posted by Jill on January 21, 2010 at 11:43 am | permalink |
Great point… COmmunity Colleges have a more practical suite of training that traditional colleges can't match. In an increasingly dynamic world, quick, good training capabilities are critical to our country and economy. Kudos to Jill!
Posted by Chirag on February 7, 2010 at 1:01 am | permalink |
I'm so glad you're questioning the value of even going to college, which until recently has seemed a more or less untouchable subject. I just graduated from an obnoxiously pricey private university with a liberal arts degree, and I already realize that it wasn't worth the money. (Most of which I haven't paid yet.)
The name of the university doesn't matter nearly enough anymore for it to cost that much. And the fact that it's famous and private doesn't mean the education was any better than what I could have gotten at a public school. I did appreciate how much my professors stretched my horizons and ability to think critically in my first year, right out of high school. Though I'm not sure how much that was worth to me (probably less than $60k).
Beyond that, though, I'm pretty sure I would have learned a lot more if I just spent the rest of that time reading books instead of going to college. I totally think it's important to learn to think about subjects that are not necessarily applicable to a job, and am motivated to do so on my own. But I think at this point, college often functions more as an intermediate stage between high school and the "real world", where you can send kids who aren't ready to get their own place, get a job, coordinate their own schedules, learn on their own, etc. Like astronomically expensive daycare.
So I agree that it's so important for people to be clear on why exactly they're going to college.
Posted by Aurora on January 21, 2010 at 11:46 am | permalink |
Like JanetMcK, I also got a lot of aid and went to an elite liberal arts college. I waitressed during school and summers to help pay for books and the tuition that wasn't covered by aid. If you remember, we had a bad job market in the early 90s but I was one of the few who graduated with a job as a legal assistant in a big law firm. I was so proud of myself!
Imagine my shock 4 months into my new job when the hiring manager told me that she didn't give a fig about my degree. My summer gigs got me that job. She loved hiring waitresses–they know how to meet a deadline under pressure, handle multiple requests at once, and deal with ornery people. Many years later, I'm actually using my degree in my work, but it took a while.
I can see both sides of the vocational school vs. liberal arts equation. What it boils down to, for me, is networking. In the workplace, that's what's changing the game. It used to be that you could only get the internships, the introduction, the job through your connections–and you met the "right" people at college. Social networking is changing that. It's a great equalizer.
Posted by JB on January 21, 2010 at 11:46 am | permalink |
Great thoughts, as usual. But while people are out there rolling their own their liberal arts degrees on the interwebs, they need to do something that builds a work ethic. I hire lots of liberal arts grads. I'd rather hire people with a useful work ethic and teach them social media than hire another social media master with a sense of entitlement the size of the White House Christmas tree.
Without a work ethic, you're gonna be in the way most of the time, no matter how well-trained you are.
Posted by john gaines on January 21, 2010 at 11:56 am | permalink |
I completely agree here…Having worked in IT for 15 years, I've worked with people with degrees and people who learned by "doing" and skipping college. I can say, generally speaking, that those who didn't go to college didn't have the same work ethic as the ones who did — and carried a "I'm smarter than everyone else" attitude to boot. College is a great place to grow up: community, liberal arts or otherwise. I have yet to meet/hire/work with a 19 or 20 year old that put 100% into their 40-hour (or more) work week, didn't expect a 6-figure income out of the gate, and realized that they could learn things from everyone around them.
Bottom line: don't skip the college education — it has a lot more to offer than just reading and writing.
Posted by Stacey on January 25, 2010 at 10:12 am | permalink |
I have loved reading your blog, and felt a need to comment since most of this post talks about what I do – work at a university career center. I have to disagree that all career centers are terrible- I am sure that many are bad and many are good. But I think you have valid points that ideally the "good" career centers would also agree with. I work with students in the liberal arts and sciences, so although a lot of the companies that come to campus are looking for business and engineering students, I am helping my students compete and realize the skills they have that set them apart. I totally agree that individuals should have unique resumes- not look like everyone else's, that people get jobs through networking and the hidden job market, and social media is a great tool for job searching. I wish more of my students understood how important networking is!
I agree that most colleges don't pay a lot of attention to their career centers, which is a shame since most students will tell you they are going to college to be able to get a better job afterwards. However, I love my job and being able to work with students to help them navigate the world of job searching and careers!
Posted by Elizabeth on January 21, 2010 at 12:04 pm | permalink |
Elizabeth, I wish you'd have listed the college or university you work at. It's a great advertisement for that institution that you took the time to respond to this post. To me, your comment means that you are actively engaged in conversations about this topic, and that you have a good understanding of the problems people face using career centers today, and you genuinely care.
Why no identifier? If I were looking for a college today, I'd at least check out yours based solely on this comment… And, hey! I just thought of something. Maybe colleges should start sending their career center employees out to recruit applicants.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 21, 2010 at 12:09 pm | permalink |
Hi Penelope! I work for the University of Tennessee, Knoxville Career Services. I definitely do care about helping students, and wish more knew that we existed and are here for them! Another thing I forgot to mention in my previous comment was how much we stress getting experience. Internships, jobs, volunteering, etc. are so important, and we know that's what employers are looking for-not what the degree on your resume is. Thanks for your comment back-it was great to hear your thoughts!
Posted by Elizabeth on January 21, 2010 at 12:14 pm | permalink |
I, too, felt obliged to respond to Penelope's post on behalf of the dedicated career counselors and student services staff that I work with at the University of Virginia. Many folks don't realize that in addition to the on-campus interviewing focus seen at many universities, career centers help students to assess their skills/interests/values through programming and one-on-one work–and in doing so, attempting to reach a wide range of academic majors and student subpopulations. As a career counselor, I have witnessed immense support for students' desires to gain experience through internships, externships, student leadership, and connections with alumni and other professionals. We counselors do everything we can to help students highlight their unique strengths on resumes while building solid skills through their out-of-class experiences. Indeed, the employers who are brought to our campus have said they like the diversity of skills and experiences that our liberal arts and sciences grads have to offer. Yet, in looking beyond the selection of employers who can afford to participate in on-campus recruiting, our counselors help students seek out customized resources for their particular fields of interest.
Thanks for the great conversation starter, Penelope! I look forward to future posts.
Posted by Kate on January 25, 2010 at 2:12 pm | permalink |
While I recognize that getting a job outside of college is important, I don't think advocating for people to stop receiving a liberal arts education is the way to go. For one, a liberal arts education provides people with a lot of skills that you can't learn on your own. Sure, you may be able to get an interesting conversation started with a blog, but that doesn't necessarily mean you are a good writer. I am amazed at some of the people at my grad school who chose to go to a state school and never really learned how to write or think critically. I also have numerous other friends who went to state school and it took them 5-7 years to finish, instead of the 4 years that it takes most people for a private liberal arts education. There is much more guidance and personal attention given when class sizes are small. I didn't have to waste time figuring out what I wanted to do (and the incentive of paying more money also provided a needed push).
I'm part of the generation that grew up with social media and there are so many benefits that I would be without if it wasn't for a liberal arts education. A solid education from a solid school paves the way to a high quality grad school.
While I agree that specific interviews arranged by career centers may not be useful, career centers are important for connecting students with alumni. Networking and informational interviews would be a lot harder to come by without their services.
Instead of advocating for people to rethink going to small liberal arts schools, maybe a better focus is to advocate for people to take on jobs and internships during school so that they build valuable skills in addition to their education.
Posted by Emily on January 21, 2010 at 12:15 pm | permalink |
I agree with this comment, but mainly because the US high school system is so lacking. You should be able to write properly and think critically by the time you leave high school. College should build on that and let you explore chosen topics in more depth.
High school should also give you a basic knowledge of history and geography literature and a working understanding of science.
That said, I don't think college just has to be vocational and about finding jobs – that's such a hideous reductionist view of education.
Posted by Caitlin @ Roaming Tales on January 21, 2010 at 12:31 pm | permalink |
Emily, thanks for the thoughtful comment. I think you touch on a lot of ideas that a lot of people are thinking on this topic.
So. Something: First: Maybe click the link in this post about generation Y being the best writers in history. The link includes a study from Stanford University that is pretty thorough. The conclusion is that, in fact, you do need to be a good writer to get people to have a conversation on your blog. And that the core of a liberal arts education is to learn to craft persuasive arguments and then communicate them. And Stanford students found writing that way for the Internet more challenging and rewarding than writing for class. It's a great study.
Second: I don't think we can continue to justify college as a way to get to grad school. Here's a great link from Tyler Cowen's blog about all the bad reasons people go to grad school. It's pretty clear at this point that 90% of people in grad school don't need to be there, and it's basically an academic ponzi scheme. I say this all the time (search "graduate school" on my sidebar). So instead of linking to myself, I'm linking to Tyler :)
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/01/six-bullet-points-on-why-people-go-to-graduate-school-in-the-humanities.html
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 21, 2010 at 12:35 pm | permalink |
I agree that a lot of people go to grad school for the wrong reasons. I know there are a lot of people who just enroll because they don't know what else to do (just look at this years application and enrollment figures – the highest ever because of the economy and high unemployment). However, there are a lot of us out there that have had grad school as the ultimate goal from the beginning. I planned on going to law school before I even started college. Had I chosen a state school it is very likely I would have been lost in the crowd and would not have received the same opportunities that were available to me with going to a smaller school. That likely could have changed the outcome of which schools I was accepted to.
Like Caitlin noted, a lot of students are lacking in basic skills when they leave high school. While Stanford students may find writing for the internet more rewarding, they are also learning many writing skills through their liberal arts education that they can later apply to blogging. It is unlikely that many of them were going straight to blogging before taking any type of college course.
Like Caitlin also pointed out, going to college is about a lot more than just pursuing a job. It's about figuring out who you are as a person, challenging your morals and values, learning more about the world around you and finding joy in learning. One of my professors always used to tell us that in picking a major or object of study we should pick not based on the career we want but based on what we would find the most fulfilling. She called it the lottery decision, "If you won the lottery on graduation day and never had to work another day in your life, would you look back at your selection of courses of study as worthwhile or a waste of time." The value of liberal arts is that it is versatile and can transition to a multitude of careers. Sure you might have to pay your dues at entry level and work your butt off to develop connections, but that is what most people face. Even those who don't go to school.
Posted by Emily on January 21, 2010 at 1:31 pm | permalink |
A liberal arts education is not just rhetoric.
When I look back on my liberal arts education, the value was in professors forcing me to reason about a view of the world that was not my own (philosophy), and showing me that I was wrong regularly in my understanding of how the world worked (physics).
Logic, science, and rhetoric are the three legs of a solid liberal arts education (some would also include creating art, but I don't believe creativity is taught well in a college setting). These three are what make a liberal arts education more valuable than a vocational education like engineering or nursing.
I agree that blogging and social media allow other avenues for honing rhetorical skills.
Since rhetoric is the major piece missing from an engineering degree, perhaps everyone should just major in engineering and have a topical blog on the side. :-)
Very few engineering majors complain they can't find a job after college…
Posted by Al Lee on January 21, 2010 at 5:05 pm | permalink |
"I am amazed at some of the people at my grad school who chose to go to a state school and never really learned how to write or think critically. I also have numerous other friends who went to state school and it took them 5-7 years to finish, instead of the 4 years that it takes most people for a private liberal arts education."
So many generalizations, I don't even know where to start. Are you saying that public education is worse than private? That's not true. Also, most of the people going to a state school finish in 4 years – that fact is not exclusive of small private liberal arts colleges.
In addition, you make a distinction of how those (such as yourself) who go to a small school, get more personal attention and guidance. Someone who stands out amongst his/her peers in a giant university is a much better hire over anyone with all that personal attention.
Plus, I'm not sure I need an additional $30K in tuition fees to give me an extra push to figure out what I want to do. That's a silly concept. Again, a better hire is someone who can manage getting that education – fast and with as little expenses as possible.
Posted by Uli on January 22, 2010 at 4:24 pm | permalink |
I wish someone had told me this before I opted to go to my pricey private liberal arts institution where I was told by every professor I had that because I got my degree from them I would have no problem getting a job. Yeah, almost 5 years after graduation (with a 2 year stop for grad school and an MA I barely use) and I finally got a job that's only tangentially related to my degree.
Posted by Liz C on January 21, 2010 at 12:20 pm | permalink |
My kids have attended/are attending Princeton. I didn't send either of them there with an ROI in mind. My father's foresightedness has made it possible for me to be price-neutral in the college decision. In our situation, I don't doubt for one minute that the experience, the time with professors, the Disneyland for smart kids that is Princeton, has been a gift they will long value. I can't say what the choice looks like for others looking to pay full price.
But here's another thing. Princeton's Career Services rocks. Their alumni network rocks. So even if I HAD factored in earning potential, the equation might still have produced the same answer. I am not refuting your argument, simply added another piece of data. It's important not to let sour grapes color the analysis.
Posted by LPC on January 21, 2010 at 12:28 pm | permalink |
I think Princeton is a great place to spend four years. I think there's clear ROI. It's just that so few people have that opportunity that it's not particularly useful to discuss it.
-Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 21, 2010 at 12:49 pm | permalink |
Agree. Unless you're choosing between Princeton and similar or a free ride elsewhere. Which turns out to be a passionate issue in the world of college admissions. http://www.collegeconfidential.com lives and breathes this stuff.
Posted by LPC on January 21, 2010 at 12:53 pm | permalink |
True, the moneyed and lucky are relatively few and far between, but their situation gives the problem of what education is "worth" an interesting perspective.
I'm a schoolteacher at a prep school that sends kids to Ivy League schools every year. The weird thing is that kids and parents have an almost carnal attraction to a very few brand names. They can't get enough of Vanderbilt, USC, Boston University, and Colby, but if you mention UVA, Washington University in St. Louis, Kenyon, or Grinnell, they'll look at you like you just asked them to eat mold. It's not price that counts with these folks; it's a perpetually fluctuating cachet.
I did my undergrad at Harvard a couple years ago, though, and THAT was worth the markup. The career services were incredible, and having that stamp of approval on the top of my resume at least gets me an interview a lot of the time. (Oh, and the education was superb, but I'm pretty much the only person from my class and major – history – who currently has a job related to that major.)
In conclusion: judge the worth of the brand accurately, and know that you're paying a premium for a label. Some labels are worth it; some really aren't.
Posted by Molly on January 21, 2010 at 4:56 pm | permalink |
I disagree. We have our entire adult lives to work. Why not take 4 years to study whatever fancy catches our interest, whether or not it directly contributes to our income level? I studied philosophy, classics, and political science in college. I work in health communications. Do I use my knowledge of Descartes, Arendt, and Aristotle directly in my work? Of course not. But did learning and reading and expanding my mind under the guidance of great professors help me deal with life and be happy as well as interesting? Hell yes.
I wouldn't have traded my majors for anything in the world. I could have taken business and communications courses in college or gone on to a masters in communication (required for many communications jobs in DC), but I can also get most of that training on the job and by taking an entry-level position, get to the point where my company will pay for me to get my masters if I want. Study what makes you happy in college. Higher mathematics and foreign languages help wire the brain so that we are less likely suffer badly from dementia or Alzheimers. Maybe the money I spent on college isn't immediately going to be returned by my salary, but it's certainly improving my life now and in the future.
There's more to life than money. Liberal arts helps people to be both happier and more interesting. Nice to not have to choose for once.
Posted by Bethany on January 21, 2010 at 12:43 pm | permalink |
You're right that people should not have to choose between money and learning. This is how to do that: Spend your whole life learning whatever you want, whatever is exciting to you, regardless of whether it earns you money. Just do it at night, after you're done earning money.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 21, 2010 at 1:49 pm | permalink |
But you can't always do that. I learned just as much from how my professors used the material as I did from the material itself. While there are free lectures (which is part of why I chose the company I work for–they provide great sociology lectures free to employees) I wouldn't be able to spend the time immersing myself in classical culture today that I could when I was in college and that was my "job."
Posted by Bethany on January 21, 2010 at 3:41 pm | permalink |
I agree Bethany.
Posted by Dominika on January 21, 2010 at 4:22 pm | permalink |
Some career centers LIE about their statistics! Mine left out all the students who somehow didn't manage to get in the info that they earned less than $32k a year, and included some students who had dual degrees. Of course an IT degree on top of a liberal arts degree is going to net a student added income!
Departments will also keep students that shouldn't be there because their funding is determined by how many full time students they have. In my case, they pretend like all of us who didn't go to grad school or got jobs earning less than $35k don't exist. We don't get invites to department alumni events.
I loved my community college. I enjoyed my liberal arts classes there a great deal because I learned how to write and critically discuss issues. Math was awesome. I got a B.S. in Economics and after over two years of looking for a "real" job, NOT including a year when I made $5 an hour in San Francisco in AmeriCorps. I was able to get one remotely related to my degree through networking.
My advice: get into a program that has obviously strong connections and networks. Otherwise, as stated previously, don't bother. If you have a learning disability like I did, be prepared to suffer your way through school.
Posted by econopete on January 21, 2010 at 8:41 pm | permalink |
So true!
The purpose of going to a liberal arts college is not to read Descartes, but to spend time observing and absorbing the mind of a brilliant thinker who reads and studies Descartes full-time. And to read Descartes. In other words, the value of a truly great education is not necessarily in the books themselves, or in the discussion in classes, but in the time spent listening to a professional thinker do their work. I lament the time when our intellectual culture is google-bred, blog-fed, and second-hand nurtured. If your college experience involved listening to a bunch of washed-up, second-rate professors drool through a lecture, it's understandable why one would be resentful of the concept of Liberal Arts.
And yes, we have a lifetime at the grindstone. The original purpose of a Liberal Arts education was to produce the next generation of scholars, who were the Google of their day. So, if we have the opportunity to spend a few years around our era's greatest thinkers (i.e., at Harvard, etc.), before committing ourselves to the madness of the working world (I love my job btw… but it's nothing compared to a good philosophy course), the world and the individual will be better off for it.
Posted by Agamus on January 27, 2010 at 1:47 pm | permalink |
I went to Franklin & Marshall (now pushing 50k a year) and it was a total waste of four years and a lot of money (even tho i got mostly a full ride I still owe a few thousand dollars). I'm sure there are people who go thru the accounting or pre-med programs there who get a lot out of them, but its LA program is laughable and worthless because graduates aren't going to get jobs to pay off their loans more than a couple hundred bucks a month.
If i could undo one decision in life it would be college choice. I tell any teenager I can get close enough to talk to that if it's not Stanford or Harvard, go to SUNY Binghamton.
Posted by Matt K on January 21, 2010 at 1:02 pm | permalink |
Went to F&M myself for almost 3 years in the 80's. Leaving that school is my own biggest regret. If I had it to do over again I'd have probably chosen University of Maryland, but I think F&M is a good school.
Posted by Al on January 21, 2010 at 1:21 pm | permalink |
"supporting yourself is ancillary to why you went to college"
I went to college because everyone expected it. HOWEVER, what I got out of it was largely learning how to live on my own, make friends, meet responsibilities etc., without the pressure of earning a living at the same time. It was "practice" for being an adult, not at all about learning things (though I did) or prepare for a career (which I did NOT).
It was also damn fun. Probably, what high school was for boomers, college was for me and my Gen X friends.
Now that we have kids and debt, and no certain retirement, college seems like the last best time.
Posted by Tzipporah on January 21, 2010 at 1:05 pm | permalink |
Spent 5 years getting a B.Sc in Engineering that cost me 20K (in tuition and books… obviously the opportunity cost of not working full-time for 5 years is significant and unaccounted for)
Had two job offers in the 40K/year range after looking for about 3 weeks.
Lesson = Get an engineering degree
Oh… and go to a canadian university. Equivalent quality at a fraction of the cost.
Posted by Marc KS on January 21, 2010 at 1:10 pm | permalink |
I too spent 5 years getting a BS in engineering. My first year was spent at a small private liberal arts college but then I started worrying about how my degree wouldn't really qualify me to "do" anything nor pay future bills, so I transferred out to a large public university (via a community college for one year) and changed my major to engineering. My first job out of college had a sweet paycheck (though not as sweet as the paychecks of all the computer science majors I know). But as soon as the economy started tanking I lost my job. Over a year later I'm still job hunting.
Posted by Anca on January 21, 2010 at 5:43 pm | permalink |
I was waiting to see if other engineers posted on here because some of the LA majors think it's some sort of panacea for getting a job. Right now, it's not. Maybe back in 2004 or 1999. Not now though.
I think the thing that people studying LA should realize is that practical education is stressed very strongly for engineers. I spent 2 semesters and all 3 summers working at engineering firms after my Sophomore year. The ones that don't do internships and (more importantly) co-ops? They are the ones who end up in grad school.
So my suggestion would be for Liberal Arts based co-ops (assuming they are possible, see Penelope's post about not getting paid for internships). I say co-ops because you need to be doing it for more than a summer. I was basically a full time worker for the equivalent of 2 years during my college years.
And yet after all of this writing, I still would have to agree with Marc KS: Get an engineering degree (because of all the cool stuff you can do, jobs are just a bonus and never guaranteed).
Posted by Chris Gammell on January 22, 2010 at 7:16 am | permalink |
Mechanical and Civil engineers still don't have much problems finding jobs (in Canada it is still EASY)
I hardily agree however… don't choose eng for A job, choose it because the jobs it offers rock – even straight out of college.
That and the extracurriculars for engineers during university are insanely fun.
Posted by Marc KS on January 22, 2010 at 1:24 pm | permalink |
I didn't go to college out of high school because I just wasn't ready. I waited until I realized that I needed more education to advance in my career (I was 24 yrs old) and then I enrolled in community college. I got a great education at Portland Community College. I decided to keep going and ended up with a Bachelors Degree from Portland State University. I'm 32 years old now and it hasn't made one difference where I got my degree from. Now, I'm looking at obtaining my MBA from Portland State University.
I cannot stress how well the community and state colleges do in terms of educating their students. I think they really 'get' the idea that students are there to advance themselves in a career field and that the college must help them find jobs, internships, volunteer positions,etc to continue attracting students. Long live community college!
Posted by Aleta Fullenwider on January 21, 2010 at 1:17 pm | permalink |
I think a related issue here is that our society has deemed a college education debt-finance acceptable. Which is a critical factor in the decision making process of college vs. Ben's experience model. If you have limited resources, we allow you access to credit, in order to finance sanctioned human capital investments. The ones rated "AAA" if you will ;).
I don't see the same treatment of trips to Argentina, Chile, Cyprus… and posting to a blog rather than formal writing assignments. (I'm a fan of Ben's too.)
But maybe I'm wrong. I'm willing to be challenged on this.
Also there is a credentialism aspect of college education.
So in the marketplace we have one route that is subsidized, celebrated, and politically protected. The alternatives have none of those benefits. Not surprising to me why high school seniors blindly fill out applications for admission. (Myself included way back when.)
It's posts like this and Ben's blog that might change the celebrated part. Thanks!
Posted by Jake Russ on January 21, 2010 at 1:23 pm | permalink |
I agree with you Penelope. But I think the real shift needs to occur with employers, who frequently still require a BS of some kind to work in entry-level positions like Admin/office assistant. Frankly, that is b.s.
To make higher education more valuable, I would love to see colleges make half their school year about traditional classes, and half about work or volunteer experience. For all 4 years. Paid or unpaid internships, or credit for the job you are already working to put yourself through school could apply. That way, even if you have to leave school before getting a degree, you get some solid education and work experience.
Posted by Susan on January 21, 2010 at 1:30 pm | permalink |
I think there are some very good points on both sides here. I went to a private college which was expensive then (class of '91) and even more so now. I don't regret having gone there at all. Although I didn't know it when I chose the school, their communication school was all about networking. Their career office sends students to LA each year to meet alums working in film, and have many similar netowrking/learning programs for the other diciplines. I recently participated in a networking night for students and know that if I need job search help I can go to the the office and they'll plug me further into the alumni network. (I should mention that the career office is specifically for the students/alums of the communication school.) They also pushed the internship route during school, for the experience on your resume, but also to see if the work area was truly what you wanted to do after graduating.
Yes, I do wonder now with the costs of college so high now if it is worth it for communication majors to pay so much and then get what will be a low paying job to start.
But, I also knew a number of kids in school who were just there to get a degree, assuming a job would just be handed over when they graduated. They all tended to major in Liberal Arts or generic Business. That experience makes me wonder when people tell me college was a "waste" if it was the educational offerings that were really the problem.
Posted by meemee on January 21, 2010 at 1:33 pm | permalink |
Amen on Liberal Arts degree, "Career Centers," and school choice. Career Centers catering to the companies is so spot on it is rediculous! How about Career Centers bringing in new companies in order to focus more on the student? More "real world" application needs to be the focus instead of book work! Great topic!!
Posted by Alan Christensen on January 21, 2010 at 1:39 pm | permalink |
Another great topic to discuss in relation to this is the ever increasing college teacher salaries, skyrocketing tuition costs and college teachers having "tenure."
Posted by Alan Christensen on January 21, 2010 at 1:45 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
For the past several years since college, I have taught LSAT classes for those looking to go to law school. I was often so surprised by the lack of writing and communication skills of those that were shortly to graduate from college. And this lack of skill would often hold people back from doing well on that test. So I would add that regardless of whether you go to college or not, that it is critical to develop communication skills. Get involved. Start writing. Start commenting. Start analyzing. Not only does it build a critical network for finding a job, but the communication and analytical skills you develop from that networking will also go a long ways in helping you succeed as well.
Posted by Rachel Vincent on January 21, 2010 at 1:47 pm | permalink |
I'll respond to your post from the angle of someone who was persuaded away from a liberal arts degree by my parents, who instead steered me towards my second choice of economics through Penn State's business school, and got my first job via Craigslist, not the career center (although I was a pretty active visitor there for my entire junior and senior years).
I wanted so badly to major in International Relations and just study countries all day and then, when I was an econ major, to just study developing countries instead of going to econometrics class. But what helped me get the job in the end? Not my Hebrew minor (which I studied for with a passion that outdid many of my other classes) or my political science class, but the fact that I remembered and could analyze formulas from econometrics, and the fact that I had concrete experience working as an assistant in an econ experiment lab.
I would say this is the biggest problem for colleges: they teach thinking skills and how to live as an adult, but not solid technical skills (like programming, math, and how to manage finances) that actually get you the jobs and prepare you for success in adult life. I was just talking with my husband about this the other day, and we decided
So yes, if you are looking for a job in the real world, liberal arts is the wrong way to go, unless you are supplanting it with solid skills. However, that's not a reason NOT to get an education. Because, like someone said upthread, you can't even get a secretarial job without a B.S. these days.
Because Ben Casnocha is not an example for everyone to follow (I doubt I would have had the self-discipline to teach myself things like college professors made me learn.) And because, like everyone says, your college GPA is meaningless after a few years, but I doubt I would have been hired into my first job and the launching point of my career if mine weren't up to par.
Posted by Vicki on January 21, 2010 at 2:19 pm | permalink |
Penelope, I have to take issue with the "career centers are terrible" comment, only because I have experience with an excellent career center at a liberal arts college (Smith). I'm class of '96, but do alumnae interviews for prospective students every year so I'm tuned in to how it was back in my day, and what it's like now.
Smith really gets that most people get jobs via their personal network, and the Smith CDO is very into teaching network building. From the moment you arrive on campus, you start learning about how to utilize the "old girls network" (well, they call it the "ageless women's network" but whatever). Yeah, the Career Development Office not only helps out with the usual stuff (resumes, company visits, job listings) but their laser-focus on networking and how to build that network while still a student is great and helped a lot of my peers get where they are today. And yes, they're pretty darn good at social media too.
And, to address the internship disparity (wealthy students can afford unpaid internships, financial aid kids like me had to work for the summer), Smith now has the Praxis program which ensures that every Smith student can have an internship (of their choosing) funded by the college.
So, did my liberal arts degree get me the job I have now? No. But my network of Smith alumnae did. There are good, successful career centers out there, I wanted to share the story of this one.
Posted by Kate on January 21, 2010 at 2:35 pm | permalink |
I seem to recall that someone did a study of various degrees in the UK and took into account loss of earnings during study, cost of tuition and so on, and compared it extra earnings due to having a degree.
They found that certain arts subjects (like philosophy) had a negative effect overall.
Of course, what none of this considers whether better people go to college. In other words, when comparing salaries of college leavers vs the rest, we aren't considering like with like.
Posted by Tim Almond on January 21, 2010 at 3:04 pm | permalink |
Great post…to uncover all the reasons that your "College Career Center Can't Help You", click below:
http://blog.theascendancegroup.org/post/your-college-career-center-cant-help-you/
Penelope, on this one I'm with you 100%.
Kind Regards,
Jon
Posted by Jonathan Hilley on January 21, 2010 at 3:10 pm | permalink |
P: This comment has started a good debate on this topic, but it is among the wrong people. You may be convincing people who do not, or did not, want to go to college, that it is or was a bad idea. I think the "liberal arts" should be a focus, but not the focus, of college. Everyone benefits from knowing basic rules of logic and a brief history of philosophy, for example. And literature, too. Your argument neglects – perhaps because of its broad brush, which is a fault of social media – the benefit to all society of a populace that has a basic knowledge of these liberal arts, of history, of music, of art. I am not saying you are wrong, in fact as president of the Bank of Dad, I can safely say you are right, mostly. I am saying that your message, patterned to fit this particular medium, can be misunderstood as a call to abandon pursuit of knowledge to become a better, all-around member of society.
Posted by George Hesselberg on January 21, 2010 at 3:35 pm | permalink |
I received a liberal arts degree and I spend most days regretting it. Not because of the education: I loved spending countless hours discussing fascinating and interesting topics, and developing my researching and writing. However, I think that liberal arts degrees hoodwink 18 year olds. I had no clue at that age what my real priorities were. I loved studying communication, but now I work as an executive assistant in a psychiatric hospital. I am now paying for an education that I enjoyed, but not one that serves my priorities and interests in life. Due to the cost of my education, I won't be able to return to school for a nuring degree (which I will get from the local community college) for another 2-3 years until I have my first loans under control.
Penelope- you talk about gen Y being the "path" generation. I worked my ass off through high school and college, and thought my path would reveal itself to me because I had done everything right. Now I understand that for ANY secondary education to really count, one must know the context under which it will fit in their lives. I think liberal arts should be studied by adults who can appreciate the vastness and can channel it appropriately, not by 18 year olds who have no context to apply such an open-ended "skill"(?). I wish I would have worked a few jobs before going to college so that I would have had a better idea of what subjects and what skills I wanted to have. I am now working very hard to start all over.
Posted by Mhughes on January 21, 2010 at 3:38 pm | permalink |
" … going to college is about a lot more than just pursuing a job. It's about figuring out who you are as a person, challenging your morals and values, learning more about the world around you and finding joy in learning."
I *partly* agree with this. The problem is that a) college is prohibitively expensive, and b) you need to be able to support yourself, and have your own money. Do you want to have to sleep on your buddy's couch? Mooch off of your parents until you are middle-aged? Try to find a spouse who will support you? (People aren't exactly lined up down the block, looking for a spouse they can support.) You have to get the 'needs' covered before you move on to the 'wants.'
Having said that, I agree about discovering who you are, learning about the world, and challenging your own views. Is it possible to take college classes here and there, throughout your life, and experience this? Is it really necessary to spend four years after high school engaged in … four more years of high school? Drinking beer from bongs? Can you meet interesting people through work who challenge your thinking? Just something to consider.
"If you won the lottery on graduation day and never had to work another day in your life, would you look back at your selection of courses of study as worthwhile or a waste of time."
Gee, that's great … if you never have to work a day in your life.
Posted by Pirate Jo on January 21, 2010 at 3:42 pm | permalink |
But don't you think that your arts education helped you write persuasively? I think it might have :)
Posted by Dominika on January 21, 2010 at 4:00 pm | permalink |
I think a lot of this is colored by Penelope's grad school experiences. But I also think that this post works against itself. Why?
It conflates what you learn at a university with what services are provided by that university's career center. These are, actually, two separate issues. They can be linked, but I don't think that's done effectively here.
And as it conflates, it meanders back and forth between the two. The progression isn't orderly, and neither is the thought process. The result? I'm not persuaded. I'm not even persuaded to see it as a well-thought-out position, much less agree with it.
Posted by KateNonymous on January 21, 2010 at 4:23 pm | permalink |
I totally agree with a lot of stuff you're saying here in regards to a liberal arts education. I got a MA in English from a state school, and while it didn't cost nearly as much as a masters from a private institution, it's still got me in a damned deep whole. And I could have gotten all of those read/writing/critical thinking skills simply by reading, writing, and joining writers groups on my own. And saved thousands.
For anyone that is interested in an MBA, I encourage you to check out the personal MBA program. All the knowledge, none of the bullshit, loads cheaper: http://personalmba.com/
Posted by Lance on January 21, 2010 at 4:37 pm | permalink |
Ah, but if you had gone to a private school, maybe you would have landed in a damn deep HOLE instead. ;)
Posted by Tzipporah on January 21, 2010 at 5:47 pm | permalink |
Why are we waiting until college to teach critical thinking and life skills? And why does a $50k per year school have a monopoly on the subject?
I suspect a.) we don't want younger kids to have said skills, otherwise, they might outargue their teachers or parents and b.) if we did teach this, we would be left with $50k a year schools that teach… what again?
One thing that is becoming very evident is that many people on this thread do not know the difference between anecdote and data. I am speaking to you, career counselors, who come here and say "because my center is awesome, all centers must be". I am also speaking to the "I went to the liberal arts college, and now I have sufficient critical thinking skill to commit critical thinking errors about generalizing the affect of expensive liberal arts college on critical thinking skill".
Posted by Aaron Erickson on January 21, 2010 at 4:40 pm | permalink |
Not so much that we don't want them to have those skills, but that public schools are not set up to provide them. They must teach to tests, deal with ALL the kids in the class (and not just the motivated ones, etc.). Compare this to the kinds of skills taught at any good private high school – you're getting a mini liberal arts degree simply because they're allowed to demand "more" as an elite school.
Also, don't forget that many students in high school have parents who STILL don't have critical thinking skills.
Posted by Tzipporah on January 21, 2010 at 5:50 pm | permalink |
Word. To everything you just said.
This makes me think parents would be spending their money better to send their kids to good private schools during the grades K-12. But most parents can't afford that. Even if (and this already puts them in the minority) they have the resources to squirrel away money for their kids' education, it's not going to amount to anything until the kids are older. How is a 32-year-old, having their first kid, supposed to find the cash to pay for a private K-12 education?
Posted by Pirate Jo on January 21, 2010 at 6:44 pm | permalink |
"I suspect a.) we don't want younger kids to have said skills, otherwise, they might outargue their teachers or parents"
Okay, show of hands. When you were in school, did your parents encourage you to a) be well-behaved, or b) learn the material? This is not to be confused with "getting good grades." Such an interesting brain exercise … do teachers give good grades to students who truly learn the math, or do they give them to the students who are obedient and don't give them trouble? In that light, were your parents CORRECT to emphasize good behavior over cognitive development? If you had been bullied in school by a teacher, would your parents have stood up for you, or assumed you were being a brat and punished you? As alluded to earlier, it really stinks that the K-12 education system lets kids down so badly. And did you know it costs the taxpayers about $10K a year per kid?
I sense a 'bubble' in education, just like there have been bubbles in mortgages and consumer debt. Cars, too, probably. I loosely define a bubble as something that people have been willing to pay too much for, for too long a time. Why do we do this? Why do we care what the Joneses are doing? You look at what they're spending, and assume they must be making a lot of money, and therefore they must be really smart, and therefore the rest of us should be doing what they are doing. How do you know they make a lot of money? Maybe they just spend a lot. Vanderbilt, whatever.
Posted by Pirate Jo on January 21, 2010 at 6:41 pm | permalink |
But, you know until I read your comment, I just assumed that everybody else did the same things at their offices that we do. Maybe they really don't.
Posted by Christina Mosteller Hall on January 21, 2010 at 8:02 pm | permalink |
To Aaron's: "One thing that is becoming very evident is that many people on this thread do not know the difference between anecdote and data. I am speaking to you, career counselors, who come here and say "because my center is awesome, all centers must be".
But one person CAN extrapolate that because she had a bad experience with her career center, all career centers therefore are bad … and that's acceptable to you?
Posted by Charl on January 26, 2010 at 6:57 am | permalink |
Sadly, I agree with you, Penelope. I had an excellent liberal arts education that fed my soul and enriched my worldview, but it just wasn't so costly back then.
On another note, I learned about your blog from my daughter, who took to heart your posts about work and what a person wants his life to "look like," to good results. We are both now advising her younger brother along those lines.
Posted by Iris on January 21, 2010 at 5:48 pm | permalink |
Penelope, I always love your posts on talking truthfully about the value of college. Let's start a college revolution movement. Sure, there were things I loved about college (the history of calligraphy, microeconomics, Jane Austen) but there were many more that I hated. And since my education saddled both myself and my parents with significant debt, mostly I just feel guilty and ripped off.
Posted by Anca on January 21, 2010 at 5:52 pm | permalink |
College is a great place to learn and grow. But it's an expensive place to do that and not for everyone. Check this site out – you can watch lectures and even take video courses (no credit) at Yale via the internet for free! http://academicearth.org/
Posted by Elizabeth on January 21, 2010 at 5:52 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
Just a quick newsflash re: Liberal Arts degrees. An increasing number of business schools are incorporating the Liberal Arts into their MBA programs, finally realizing that a linear, quantitative approach to supposed "management" progams has contributed to the financial crisis and the decline of American innovation. It took a while, but solid management thinkers like McGill University's Henry Mintzberg, who's hammered the crap out of biz schools for the past two decades, are finally being listened to.
With a Liberal Arts background (like yours truly with two M.A.s and fully employed for 30 years), you have flexibility and broader opportunities than the unemployed software engineer who's watching the Indian dude with a H1-B visa work for a lower salary.
Posted by Jim on January 21, 2010 at 6:47 pm | permalink |
I am lucky and fortunate enough to not have to pay back any loans when I graduate from my two year degree, and will only have to pay about $5,000 to $11,000 tops in unsubsidized loans when I do go on to finish my 4 year degree. But I have friends who are $15,000 in debt in personal loans for pricey media schools that they didn't finish, or worse one friend who's $75,000 in debt for 4 years and has another year and half for her teaching certificate and wants to go to grad school.
I don't see the point it paying more for a private school education if you can get the same major at a state school, for a real price break. Go to a community college for two years, then transfer to the private school if you must. Save yourself the cash. Two years at my local community college center will cost you less than $8,000 if you live at home.
Posted by Megan on January 21, 2010 at 6:55 pm | permalink |
I agree that in some instances the benefits of a college education can be overrated. In my job I am regularly fixing problems caused or exacerbated by people with a Bachelor's or higher. However I don't discount all the benefits either.
You see, I have no degree to speak of. My job is one that normally goes to people with a Bachelor's or Master's. I landed it by shear luck and 18 months or searching. I wear four 'hats' – tech support, systems engineer, network analyst and business development. I've been going back to college ever since I took the job. This is because I've already hit the glass ceiling. Plus without a degree I'm "handcuffed" to my job so to speak. Despite my experience and willingness to learn new skills, I'll take between a $10-$20K a year pay cut almost anywhere else, for the lack of a piece of paper. I'm pretty sure my employer has figured this out.
I would also agree that the career center and in some instances the counseling office are all but useless. When you have to wait in the walk-in line for 2 hours minimum to ask for an appointment 2 weeks in the future, it's clear that customer service is not a priority. What kills me most of all is that you can't even get practical advice on where the field is going from these people. I'm not trying to to become an academic. I'm obtaining a set of skills to allow me to get a better job to support my family. Considering my skill set is all over the place – electronics, satellite comms, LANs/WANs, network security and a little programming – if I have to specialize it should obviously be in something that I might actually get hired for. I'm also taking a little rhetoric/argumentation – it has its place as I've found out.
Okay, rant's over. What I'm saying is I can't be the only 34 year-old vet going to college and working. I would think that the colleges would figure this out and take it into account. Or maybe I'm expecting too much, eh?
Posted by Anon on January 21, 2010 at 7:52 pm | permalink |
Either your view of Career Services is really out of date or we at IPFW are really cutting edge.
When students have come in for appointments, I've asked them if college is really for them and encouraged them to go get work experience instead or referred them to the community college across the street if it was a better fit for their needs. We constantly emphasize to students how important it is to get experience related to their degrees. I feel like I spend all day, every day fighting this pervasive cultural myth that a college education by itself is enough to guarantee career success. I'm so frustrated by it. I've walked in to graduate level classes and and told the students there that if the only reason they enrolled was because they couldn't get a job with just their BA and they thought a graduate degree would do it, they need to rethink things.
We never encourage students to produce resumes in the same format, but instead to customize their resume to best reflect their skills and experience.
We teach workshops on how social networking can benefit a job search and building your own online brand to market yourself professionally. We also teach students of the possible pitfalls of putting inappropriate information online.
I feel like we're on the side of getting this information out to students, not working to get them to buy into it.
Posted by Christina Mosteller Hall on January 21, 2010 at 7:53 pm | permalink |
Or maybe I'm just expecting too much from a local college. The subject she addressed kind of hit close to home for me – that wonderful experience of waiting 2 hours just to make an appointment was last week. Nearly all the job offers I've received since my last position have been for places like Afghanistan, or working in a life insurance office. I traveled so much last year that a friend joked I should reenlist. So it's a bit frustrating.
Posted by Anon on January 21, 2010 at 8:09 pm | permalink |
I just had this discussion with a good friend of mine! Perfect timing! I'm finally getting my bachelor's degree this summer after a long and arduous journey. When I look around, everyone that I know who has a bachelor's degree is working at the same job they had before they graduated! What does that mean? Did we miss the mark? Is the degree irrelevant? Right now I’m getting pressured to go to law school since I work as a paralegal. It doesn’t make sense to me if there isn’t a clear and concise plan that I am excited about! I totally agree that you need to calculate the ROI and not just go to school because you can’t find anything better to do. However, I must say that some people really do need college for the experience and the opportunity to grow. Some people really need to know what it’s like to be the only person responsible for your successes or failures. Sometimes, it really is about the experience.
Posted by Joey on January 21, 2010 at 8:49 pm | permalink |
I'd pass on law school. I don't know what it's like where you are at geographically, but where I live (Minneapolis) the market for lawyers is terrible. A friend of mine works at one of the better firms, and he told me that he feels for anyone attempting to get into law right now. Most of the new graduates end up as debt collection attorneys.
Posted by Kevin on January 22, 2010 at 12:55 am | permalink |
It's funny you say don't go because I've had a number of people, including a partner at a very successful law firm here in New York, tell me to go and not to think twice about it. They all say two things: (1) By the time I graduate the market will be different and (2) lawyers have opportunities that other people don't have even if they don't practice. Who knows what the truth really is? It's all a matter of perception.
Posted by Joey on January 22, 2010 at 7:53 am | permalink |
Hey, in this market being a debt collection attorney isn't a bad thing. At least they have a job. There are actually a lot of things you can do with a law degree, including teaching, consulting, working at the federal or state levels. The government needs attorneys too. It's all in how you look at it, how you market yourself and, though I hate to say it, who you know. If you go to law school be sure to intern, temp, network like crazy. If you can get recommendations or even references along the way in those temp/internship positions, do that too. Build a portfolio. I think what most people fail to realize now is that going to college is just part of the work. It no longer guarantees you a job, you have to work hard to get one.
Posted by Tay on January 22, 2010 at 11:28 am | permalink |
Indeed the market may be good for debt collection attorneys now (though I am not quite sure how any debt collector is actually able to collect anything from unemployed folks with not an asset to their name) but what about longevity? Joey mentioned that there are multiple things you can do with a law degree without practicing. Absolutely. However, will you be able to afford to pay off the student debt (assuming you take out loans) in one of these positions? We're definitely talking in generalizations here though. It's an individual thing based on job prospects where you live or if you are willing to relocate for an offer.
Posted by Kevin on January 23, 2010 at 1:26 am | permalink |
A law degree without specific prior experience is no help whatsoever in getting a job in teaching, consulting, politics, or working in the federal government. And 40% of all law school graduates have more than $100,000 in debt, which is not dischargeable in bankruptcy.
I know you mean well, but please stop telling people it's a good idea to spend three years and $100,000 learning "how to think like a lawyer," and really, almost nothing else.
There are only 759,000 lawyers employed in the US, but 45,000 people graduate law school every year. There is no profession today that will ever grow fast enough to absorb that kind of oversupply. And now that many low-level legal jobs are shipped to non-lawyers in other countries, while large firms have laid off 14,000 people since the start of the recession, the legal profession is actually not growing at all.
Law school is not a safe bet, and hasn't been for some time.
Posted by Liz on January 24, 2010 at 3:07 pm | permalink |
Many thanks for the link, though this is my best post on the topic, I think:
http://ben.casnocha.com/2008/09/organizing-the.html
And the School / Education category link has a better repository than "College Process":
http://ben.casnocha.com/school_education/
thanks again!
Posted by Ben Casnocha on January 21, 2010 at 9:40 pm | permalink |
I love your blog–you are articulate, smart, and say what you think in an interesting way. I often agree with you, but this time, I have a few tiny bones to pick.
I have a Masters, and 30 years of experience in business communication. In the years I was looking for a job, I was told several times that I didn't get the job because I did not go to an impressive-enough college, although my years of experience should have shouted a lot louder then the location of the degree.
I teach business communication (in businesses) to a variety of age groups. Many of those people who are experts in social networking are poor speakers, can't form a decent argument (or a reason their way to a logical decision), can't make eye contact, don't recognize facial expressions or body language, can't concentrate on a piece longer than 150 words, and lack grammar skills. Texting and having 10,000 followers on Twitter don't make them experts in communication. I went to a liberal arts college and learned analytical thinking, good grammar, writing skills and logic there, and practiced it over a 30-year career. I think college is a vital step to becoming a rational, thinking adult. At least it was when I went.
Posted by QuinnCreative on January 21, 2010 at 10:00 pm | permalink |
Finally someone tells it like it is…. I have a BA and am a thesis short of my Master's. I went on to "higher learning," because everyone told me this was the only way to be successful. It's a myth. I attended a "Big 10" for my undergrad and a nicely ranked private school for the Master's. The school debt I accrued along with being "over educated/overqualified" has actually cost me opportunities (which is diametrically opposed to the outdated notion that formal learning = more earning.)
Posted by Kevin on January 22, 2010 at 12:46 am | permalink |
Don't you just love with employers say you're over educated? I think it's code for, "You could take my job, so I'm not hiring you."
Posted by Tay on January 22, 2010 at 11:23 am | permalink |
Over-educated means "You're not likely to stay and do the job I'm hiring for." I really didn't like hearing it, but the people who told me that were being realistic.
Posted by Erica on January 22, 2010 at 5:57 pm | permalink |
I just want to point out Penelope's undergraduate education history: a BA in history from Brandeis – she's not exactly practicing what she preaches, is she? Plenty of people find a liberal arts education valuable and manage to navigate a successful career without much help from the college career center.
Posted by Chris on January 22, 2010 at 2:11 am | permalink |
Couldn't agree more, Pen, and this is exactly why I read you and brag on you.
When I dropped out of school, 33 years ago this week–longer ago than most reading this have been alive–I knew exactly why, and what I wanted to do: hitchhike all over the USA "to look for America" so that I could write Great American Novels, the first to be published in May '79 when I "should have" graduated.
That I didn't accomplish that goal is on me, for not being diligent enough to follow my initial vision to completion.
But I remember distinctly the argument most used against my dropping out: That once you dropped out of college, you never went back.
I went back.
Because after hitchhiking all over the USA and being dependent on others for my mobility, for networking with others across, up, down and back across this continent, I came home to friends who had no motivation to join me on a journey to RI and ME, to pick up the only two New England states I'd missed in the spring.
Came back home and everybody was boring. My best friends were in interesting schools like Michigan State, Lawrence, and Chicago.
I went back to school because my social life sucked.
Social media solve that problem nicely, too.
Posted by Jay on January 22, 2010 at 2:54 am | permalink |
Ay, Penelope, you've outdone yourself with this post. So education is only about a career? College is merely some chute to pass through on your way to a job? Puh-leeze. Most of us – myself included – would never have been exposed to new books, ideas, concepts and people had we not gone to college. To calculate "ROI" in career terms is to buy into a debased notion of what education is all about. And God forbid that my kid's Facebook page scratchings be thought of as good "communication." Regardless of the name brand or prestige, some kind of advanced – and formal – education always has a good "ROI" regardless of whatever career you pursue…
Posted by Ben on January 22, 2010 at 4:03 am | permalink |
True on the count of being exposed to books. I would have never read Dante had it not been for my Humanities class. That book was creepy, but I enjoyed it. There are more benefits to college than just getting a job. However, I think most people who pay out the money college cost now, do it so they can get a career.
Posted by Tay on January 22, 2010 at 11:22 am | permalink |
Yes, money isn't everything. But at 10% unemployment, four years of meandering liberal arts classes is an irresponsible indulgence.
Posted by Brad on January 22, 2010 at 5:27 am | permalink |
Hi P,
I was by here yesterday reading the comments and agree with your basic opinion. I'm a boomer who became disabled because of my vocation. How do you become disabled from being an electronic technician? It's a long story but the short of it is my wife supported me for two years before all of the "experts" finally declared I was disabled. My SSDI income is only a fraction of what I was making but it is pretty good if you work for 30 years. Then out of the blue comes Mass Rehabilitation Commission (MRC) who's deal was to me, that they would pay for my education where (WE) opted for Management not in IM Management as I requested. I went to a very expensive state school that really didn't care what direction I headed in as long as they got there money which they did. I loved my Liberal Arts classes and the writing experience. Finding out what is and has been going in in the world at 50 something is enlightening. The point I would like to make here is most of my research was done on the internet. If you want to get a pulse on what Americans know educated or not just was J-walking on Jay Leno, it is sad. The school I went to and wish I could afford had some great professors but the schools bottom line, was the bottom line.
Posted by Michael on January 22, 2010 at 6:39 am | permalink |
Hi P.,
I am sure you are aware that some career center professionals read your blog and will be offended. Well, I am one of those. I also know that by offending people is they way in which you get more followers, through controversy. I would welcome you anytime to visit our career center so that you can learn that there are professionals out there who do put the students first. The only reason why we do conduct employer relations activities is to benefit the student. We do not try to take credit for students activities through the control of their communication via social networking, it's quite the opposite. We recently invited Robert Allan Paul (out of St. Paul) to present on how each student is in control of their own branding. Even though there are many successful individuals who do not have a liberal arts degree you have to admit that there are certain professions that require one for the CONSIDERATION of admittance. For those people who have a BA/BS and still looking for work, the degree is not a ticket to a job, it's the ticket to an INTERVIEW. One very important benefit to a 4 year education is the opportunity to hone and develop the communication skills that are of the highest importance to employers. It's up to the student as to whether or not they take advantage of the opportunity. I challenge you to visit our career center to learn what is actually happening here, for the student. By the way, I am an internship coordinator and my hardest sell is to the students, not the employers. I can say that I didn't get a whole lot out of my career center when I was in school, either undergraduate or graduate. However, I didn't really pursue or work with them the way I should have. I didn't attend the numerous events that they planned. Some career centers and their professionals are sending the right message and giving great information but the students have to meet us half way. Most students don't visit our office until they think they need us and sometimes it's too late. Again, a liberal arts education is not necessary for success but sometimes it's a requirement for an interview in the field a person wants to pursue for employment. You are welcome to visit us anytime to get an ACCURATE perception of what is happening in career centers today.
Posted by Anne on January 22, 2010 at 7:16 am | permalink |
Anne,
I understand your frustration, but Penelope is not interested in accuracy – if you have read her blog for any period of time, it is obvious that she is only interested in senationalistic attention. She garners this through spouting a series of generalizations, often supported by a set of dubious studies. Given her "success" in the business world, I am surprised anyone listens to her advice.
Posted by jim on January 22, 2010 at 12:23 pm | permalink |
Yes, I am now coming to understand that. I have chosen to no longer follow her and am sorry that I had recommended her blog to my friends.
Posted by Anne on January 22, 2010 at 5:18 pm | permalink |
Anne may no longer be reading, but her post seems to highlight PT's point. Blaming the students for not using career centers properly is a defensive maneuver that may make you feel better. But if "most students" aren't using your services properly, maybe you aren't serving much of a function to the community.
Posted by Erica on January 22, 2010 at 6:02 pm | permalink |
Maybe my liberal arts education would have helped me had I gone to a decent school, but I went to a podunk small town University with an atrophied media department. I couldn't tell you what I learned, only that I finished. Now here I am, four years out of school with jobs under my belt I could have gotten without college (all entry-level), and currently unemployed going on a year. I even tried to get an internship at an ad agency in town, and they said "you're not in college, go away." I'm trying to educate myself by working at your damn place for free!
Don't go on autopilot and just go to college just because your parents think it's an Absolute Good, kids.
Posted by Richard on January 22, 2010 at 7:24 am | permalink |
Oh, I feel for you. I was out of work for over a year and you are right about the internships. God, even volunteering at places is getting difficult. I hope you find something soon, at least to get you by until you find something you want.
As for jobs post college. Well I had better jobs before I went to college, with major companies. Then I moved, went to school and pretty much every job I have had since I ended up getting simply because I had a college degree. They didn't care what it was in, only that I had one.
Posted by Tay on January 22, 2010 at 11:18 am | permalink |
Penelope, I must say, I love reading your blog on a daily basis, but today I felt the need to resopnd and disagree with some of your comments about university career centers.Working at a school that is well-known for its experiential learning programs and cooperative education, experience is a key component of the student experience in addition to academics.
We NEVER advise clients to use a DEFAULT resume format. We work with each student AND alum that comes to our office to develop a resume that is suited to their individual experience and target industries. We tell students that the resume needs to be a reflection of themselves and they need to be comfortable with everything on it.
We have also been promoting social media in major ways. We have always promoted networking in general, and staff in our office have been singing the praises of various social media, whether its LinkedIn or other resources. Staff have been participating in webinars and training sessions to learn more about social media, and are offering workshops on related topics on a regular basis. And we have never asked students to link their own personal blogs to our brand, it would be inappropriate.
My colleagues and I are very passionate about our clients, and doing everything possible to help them on their path, whether its identifying careers and majors of interests, finding internships or after graduation jobs, or transitioning careers.
To sum up, I wholeheartedly disagree with your perception of Career Centers :)
Posted by Tina on January 22, 2010 at 7:49 am | permalink |
And I should also note that I forgot to run spell check, because I do realize I mistyped "respond" in my first paragraph.
Posted by Tina on January 22, 2010 at 7:50 am | permalink |
Penelope,
I agree with you 100% about paying 40K for a mid-tier school. I have always said this–I went to a large state university which had its pros and cons, but my friends who went places like BU got the same education for waaaayyyyyy more money. And I still got to do a junior year abroad where I went to a completely different kind of school in England and learned SO much–mostly about educating myself.
After you get your first job, where you got your degree matters less and less with each passing year,–unless you went to an Ivy League school because 1) they take care of their own 2) it still impresses people–and it could be that what impresses is a tinier subset anyway, mostly Harvard and Yale, and some places not ivy like Stanford.
Save your money. Go to a state school. OH, it's also so competitive to teach in higher ed, that good smart people work everywhere, and often, at the big places, you never see the big names they brag about having and get taught by grad students anyway.
Posted by Sarah Bush on January 22, 2010 at 7:59 am | permalink |
I couldn't agree more with the post. I graduated from Michigan State University with a decent GPA, only to come out of it with no job. I've carved out a decent living for myself as a sales consultant (a job that I don't mind having, and even like occasionally), but I could have gotten this job without paying $25,000 for a college degree.
One thing that I would add is that you can't replace the experience of going to a big university. I'm not talking about a smaller school. I mean Big Ten size. There's nothing like waking up on a football Saturday to the fight song playing outside. Your options for entertainment are so much greater at a Michigan State because of the bigger student body; plays, musical performances, indie bands. That experience is something you can replicate anywhere else…except for maybe New York City.
Posted by T. Scott on January 22, 2010 at 8:16 am | permalink |
I agree with T. Scott on the state school (Go Badgers!) Students have opportunities before them like they will never have again, and they're all covered by yours and my tax dollars. This includes cultural opportunities like T. Scott mentioned above; also sport clubs, use of athletic facilities, phenomenal libraries, research opportunities, volunteer opportunities, study abroad…the list is endless.
College, no matter where you go, is what you make it. Students can waste a $40 grand/year classroom experience as much as a state school student. Or they can get out there and make their education. Volunteer, join student organizations, be a leader, do internships, get to know the professor…those are things that will get you the jobs.
Posted by From Wisconsin on January 25, 2010 at 1:50 pm | permalink |
After scanning through the comments, I can't agree with you entirely.
Statistically, those with a degree make more money over their lifetime. What sucks, is that most recent grads start out in an entry level job. No one wants to hire someone with an education and no experience.
It's also important to note that not every school costs 30K a year. Otherwise, it would be impossible for a lot of students to go to school. (information like this is something you overlook quite often…)
AND I think that by toting this idea, you are more or less stating that more jobs should be obtained without getting a degree. But then that only leaves the specialized areas requiring extra schooling. Which, in time, will leave our country split; the smart ones who specialized and the ones who didn't get an education past high school-and our public high schools aren't doing too great. This eventually could lead to the 'dumbing down' of America. So really, your argument should be that college shouldn't be this expensive.
Although I do think that vocational schools are great, its not great for everyone, or every profession. In the end, I think a variety of education is worth it and necessary-but it needs to remain affordable.
Posted by Liza on January 22, 2010 at 8:39 am | permalink |
Putting in my two cents worth (or worthless to some.) I think that having a degree it simply starting to lose its relevancy. I work in mid level service operations, and you would not believe the amount of entry level employees that we have brought on over the past couple of years that have gone nowhere despite having what one might consider impressive academic credentials and a strong work ethic. I could have gotten most positions I've held since college without the degree. Also, several colleges are simply diploma mills (Capella University, Univ of Phoenix etc….) and their admissions standards are non-existent (this is not hyperbole. Check out Cappella's entrance requirements to their programs.) When I went to the university, I had to prove I was qualified to be there with a good academic standing (and yes.. standardized tests…) These for-profit online schools will take anything with a pulse. Not only does it cost these folks an audacious amount of money to attend these schools (which are entirely online…. not necessarily a bad thing…. but not always great either) but because everyone knows they are diploma mills, it's hard to take a potential hire seriously that has obtained a degree from one.
Back to the point… try on some hats first with some different companies and positions. College is waiting. You can ALWAYS go back if you find it's something you need. Don't jump into it so quickly without exploring who you are and what makes you tick.
Posted by Mary on January 22, 2010 at 9:27 am | permalink |
Not all online schools are worthless. Just because they don't require the GMAT, The LSAT, the GRE or any other admissions test doesn't mean they don't have standards. It also doesn't mean that you don't have to put in hard work, research and a lot of hours to succeed. Many of these schools are accredited through the same accrediting bodies as an on campus university, and the standards for that accreditation are not lower. I have worked at both on campus and on line schools and have gone through the reaffirmation visits with both. It's not easy, the accrediting body is tough and the review stage is even more difficult. I can't speak for Capella as I have never worked for them, nor attended their programs, but I also can't discount them without researching their academics.
Posted by Tay on January 22, 2010 at 11:12 am | permalink |
Tay,
I have worked with for profit universities also and I can tell you that you are full of crap. Admissions standards at places like DeVry and Strayer are extremely low on purpose because the more students these schools enroll, the more profit they earn (hence the title, "for profit").
Did you know that University of Phoenix's graduate rate is only 4%?!
http://oedb.org/rankings/graduation-rate
Posted by Seriously? on January 22, 2010 at 1:20 pm | permalink |
There's a place in the world for liberal arts degrees and always will be.
I'd like to see people know themselves better and have clearer goals before they head to higher education of any type. A liberal arts degree is still a great fit for lots of people. So are vocational degrees. The key, of course, in whatever field you choose is being motivated to do your best, and performing well. It's more than just "work ethic," it's finding your work to be engaging and challenging and fulfilling.
Do you really think a job-focused education is always the right thing when we know that the job market can move so quickly? Nurses are hot right now — what about in 15 years? Your job-specific degree might get you a job in the current economy, but as things shift, do you have the skills to transfer to a different field? Social networking and blogs have changed things, yes – but there will be another big thing to come after Blogger and Facebook. I don't disagree that kids need to be more careful about where they go and how much it costs, but the socialization, education, and achievements earned by spending a few years on a college campus getting a liberal arts degree are still worth something long-term.
Posted by Heather on January 22, 2010 at 10:01 am | permalink |
For those out of school (even if it's just after graduation), I find working with the alumni associations' career director (most now have one) 10x more effective for my clients than working with the career centers for my clients who are still in school. LIKE NIGHT AND DAY.
To the point that I recommend newly graduating students start networking within the alumni association NOW so they're set to go the minute they've graduated. The alumni associations' staff are often-times comprised of people who've worked in corporate America, the non-profit sector or government — they haven't just been sitting in the ivory towers of academia for decades as so many in the career centers have been done.
Cheers,
Brian Kurth, President
Brian Kurth + Company Career Consulting & Outplacement – http://www.briankurth.com
VocationVacations Career Mentorship Experiences – http://www.vocationvacations.com
Posted by Brian Kurth on January 22, 2010 at 10:20 am | permalink |
Brian,
I agree with your point on this one. Career Center professionals typically have a background in counseling, not business. Fortunately, I have seen a shift to include staff that has some business background. In fact, one of my counterparts at another Iowa institution has an MBA. I, too, own and operate my own business. So, your assumption that we are all from the same background is wrong.
Posted by Anne on January 22, 2010 at 5:10 pm | permalink |
It's popular to say that career centers are terrible. It's what many people–especially those who didn't use them in college or only went once–like to say.
But I disagree with you, and the ideas in this blog post. For starters, the latest information I can find from the Census says that people with bachelor's degree can expect to earn an average of almost a million more over the course of their careers than people who don't have degrees.
And while social networking is important online, connecting with alumni face-to-face and through informational interviews is one of the best ways to land a first job. Because alumni frequently are incredibly loyal to their alma mater and their fellow community that it creates–regardless of their opinions on administration or the effectiveness of the campus career service office.
Yesterday I finished a workshop series of three presentations on social media at Dartmouth College. Departments across campus are actively using social media to engage and connect with students and their alumni and Career Services is jumping into the game. But social media aside, their graduates are doing well–according to a Payscale.com survey, Dartmouth graduates have the highest median salaries in the country ten years post-graduation. One of the most accessed website links at the college? The alumni career network. (It's a quick way to make connections regardless of what field you are in.)
I've asked my LinkedIn network group and blog readers to weigh in on this debate, thanks for sparking a thought-provoking discussion.
Posted by Chandlee Bryan on January 22, 2010 at 10:42 am | permalink |
The cost of every degree out there is insane, especially at the graduate and post graduate level. I don't think it matters what major you decide on, you're still going to pay a fortune for that piece of paper, the education and the hope that both will lead to a rewarding career.
I like the idea of a liberal arts degree, but that has a lot to do with the fact that I'm well rounded and like learning a little bit of everything. I have no interest in business, yet I'll study some aspects of it. I like medicine, but have no interest in working with sick people. I like psychology, but would be more likely to give the jumper a push rather than a helping hand. Liberal arts would be great for me, as a major anyway…but from my end of the view, why spend thousands on something I can just study at will? Now if I were going to have a career that could benefit from it, then maybe…but maybe not. My goal is to have student loans paid off in a few years, not accumulate more of them.
Posted by Tay on January 22, 2010 at 11:06 am | permalink |
This is an interesting topic to because of my own university experiences. As a high school student I got it in my head that I wanted to go to Georgetown University's Foreign Service School. I busted my ass to get in, only to have a significant 'NOW WHAT?' kind of letdown. For many of us, going to a fancy schmancy liberal arts school is the pretext by which we are able to escape our homes with parental support. Had I chosen any other major I would have ended up at the local state university. My parents were so thrilled to have a daughter at GU that they coughed up the tuition and I got away. It was a good school, but I was keen to escape my parents, my home town and in retrospect, myself. It wasn't until I got halfway through GU that I realized that it was an excellent education that was in many ways wasted on me – because I had other issues i had to deal with before i could get on with my life. Since I've had cancer twice (expensive even with insurance) and since I chose to then get a degree in a relatively low paying field for which I have passion, I'm still paying off my student loans from GU.
In retrospect, I wish I had gone to the cheaper state school. I would have encountered the same issues of self, but I wouldn't still be paying off my tuition at age forty something. I did find a lot of paid internships that directed me to my alternate career during my years at GU, but i found them on my own rather that with any career center assistance. I was in DC and at the time the place was ripe with internships. I think that the career center would have been horrified that my typical GU type internships persuaded me that I would chew my arm off to escape the associated jobs. For the record, i worked for my senator, my representative in her home office doing constituent support, for an accounting office of a restaurant chain, for a lobbying law firm and for a think tank.
After these internships, i began planning my transition to my alternate career. It was twenty years ago which was pre internet, so there wasn't that much information available for my change. I found that the career center was completely unprepared to offer guidance to anyone that didn't fit the standard post degree – go to law school, go to med school, go to business school, go to work for a big corporation path. There was a small number of people from my graduating class that were making the same move towards the design professions, and the staff there were completely flummoxed about it – and completely unmotivated to offer any significant guidance. If i hadn't been fortunate enough to work with a Jesuit at the university who'd been a big time corporate architect in his previous life, my transition to my passion would have been a lot harder.
For my second degree i chose a decent school in an area in which i'd always wanted to live. In the ensuing years, i've encountered many architects trained in more prestigious schools, but i never felt like i was at a disadvantage b/c my second degree wasn't from a famous place. Furthermore, i didn't leave my masters program believing that i was my school's great gift to the design world – unlike many of my peers who made a point of name dropping their degree program when they found themselves at any sort of disadvantage. (i.e. I went to the GSD so it doesn't matter that i don't understand how to read architectural drawings.)
Anyway, good for you for challenging the whole 'career' center thing and the idea that a liberal arts degree from a fancy school in and of itself is the bringer of wealth power and good sex.
Posted by nadine on January 22, 2010 at 11:15 am | permalink |
Penelope,
As always as very thought provoking blog. I attended a state school in the state of California. I was a first generation, working class student, so for me attending a high priced liberal arts school was simply not an option. I also didnt have the luxury of relying on my parents network to find a job after graduation. I have always bemoaned how useless career centers really are but rather than just complaining, I set out to build my own my own network and have been fairly successful. Many people told me that my Political Science degree would be useless but I can actually say that I have been able to find jobs related to politics that pay a decent salary. I know many folks who attended the ivy league who have not been as successful because they did not take full advantage of the resources that were available to them at these prestigious institutions and did not set upon building their own network either.
Now that I am a working professional I am always baffled by the horrible resumes that recent graduates (both from presitgious and unknown unversities) submit. I dont think we should expect our unversity to teach us everything. After all no one ever taught me how to format and write a proper resume.
My advice to college students is focus not only on your studies but on finding internships that will help you build a network that you can utilize after graduation. This way you wont be disappointed after graduation.
Posted by bacm on January 22, 2010 at 11:51 am | permalink |
Hello Penelope,
I credit this blog for providing me with and real world advice on the realities of work, life, and finding a career than any other book or mentor I have encountered until now. I now refer all of my fellow Gen Y friends to this blog, for any issue they face. From their job search, to being a woman in the workplace, to dealing with office politics. For me this blog replaces the college career centre. I believe we should get advice from individuals who offer us a vision, inspire creativity and questioning. You are definitely one of them
I recently graduated from a Canadian University. The Canadian context is a bit different (we don’t have to worry about not having health care upon graduation or really enormous debt). I used my career centre for its resources online and in the library. I never talk to the staff.
Reasons I don’t go to my college careers centre :
1. It’s depressing how they envision you will find a job. Things like: “It could take 6 months to find a job” or you should spend you days sending 30 resumes to low level admin work. Forget about your dreams just get ANY job. My favourite: You took what? And What do you plan on doing with that?
2. Apart from increasing your risk for depression (on top of being in a high risk group) my career centre totally miss the point. There is no interaction. The staff are awkward. Careers centre should be transformed into alumni social centres and host parties once a week for students recent grads along with older professionals to practice networking, which is still the fastest and most proven way to get a job.
3. At the career centre, I met mostly uncreative quasi-professionals a few years older than me, starting a career in HR. They still think in terms of well defined fields government/education/law/business where you really need to think more in terms of your skills and passions (organizing, teaching, writing, planning, creating, marketing- interacting).
4. Personally, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. It is difficult to get advice on what to do, when you don’t know what you want to do because most of us are not self starters. So I went out an talked to my older sister’s friends who are lawyers, social workers, marketing managers, consultants. I ask them what they did to get where they are and more importantly are they happy with what they do? Only lesson I learned is do this sooner. I got my younger sister to do that and also seek internships from her first year in college.
5. To credit the career centre, it is the only place in the entire university which presents you with the challenges of the reality of finding a job. Not that it’s there to help you with that really. Its more about pouring cold water over your face. The most important thing for a college student is to get out of the college bubble from their first year and try different settings where they might work or volunteer in a multigenerational environment (so not retail and food service). If I did that I would have had a job now. Instead I run a few student clubs, worked in the university and stayed around nervous college students who are frantic to apply to anything or stay for another year, just to avoid a spell of unemployment after graduating.
6. So I graduated without a job, it wasn’t because of my choice of university and its careers centre. It was because I didn’t take the initiative or had enough confidence to pursue experiences outside of the university walls. In the first two years, classes were too large. I imagine that’s what public universities are like in the states. In my final year I was taking courses of a small interdisciplinary program with a class of ten. That did more to inspire and instil confidence than all the other years I spent learning there. If I had the choice to go to a small liberal arts college I would jump at the opportunity. The role of education is to inspire you to formulate your own vision and instil a sense of confidence so you can act on this vision. Instead of stats on job rates, I would like universities to provide information on graduate rates of happiness.
Posted by Alizah Benchetrit on January 22, 2010 at 12:58 pm | permalink |
I came across this piece of information. In the USA, 1 out of every 3000 people has a Bachelors Degree. Further, 1 out of every 24 MBAs on resumes is real. You would not know this looking at a pile of resumes from a want Ad. IT seems everyone has at least a BA. I can't check out everyone's credentials, so someone gets a free pass.
In my college Orien 101 class, the career service director said that there are 7 mojors that had 100% placement and the best starting salaries: Chem Engr, Pharmacy, Nursing, Physical therapy, Petroleum Engr, Computer Sci, and Special Edu. Each of these majors took only 60 to 100 people each year. What was for the rest of us? What we got was classes where instructor read for texts, useless core classes, a foreign language requirement, and no one asking to hire our major at career services.
Posted by m on January 22, 2010 at 1:02 pm | permalink |
As a career professional who has worked successfully in human resources/recruiting, headhunting and career counseling for over 25 years, I can tell you that they are all different occupations. While there is some overlap the mindset and approach are quite different.
Headhunters are focused on "placement" (typically for a fee) and they do the "fishing" for the client utilizing their network while career counselors teach people the skills to "fish" for themselves! Career counselors focus on teaching students/clients skills such prepare a competitive resume, interview well and employ job search strategies. There is quite a different in terms of professional credentials as well. If you were to explore the occupations in depth you would see the difference.
Attached is a link to the Occupational Outlook Handbook form the Bureau of Labor which profiles occupations:
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos021.htm.
In addition, Career Counselors help students/clients with self assessment exercises to further explore their own values, interests, personality and skills to identify an occupation that is congruent with the world of work.
University career centers are no longer "Career Planning & Placement Centers" like they were 30 years ago. The title of the center explains that the approach is typically more developmental and the focus is on "teaching" people how to fish so they learn the approach and can continue to do it throughout their life…a valuable skill to learn!
Thank you!
Christine Harriger, M.Ed., M.C.D.P.
Master Career Development Professional
James Madison University
http://www.careercollaboration.net
Posted by Christine Harriger on January 22, 2010 at 1:18 pm | permalink |
I am also a bit upset with the comments made regarding college career centers. One should never make "generalizations" about anything. And that was done here. All career centers are different as are the people who staff them. I can say, that as a college career counselor for many years, I worked very hard to keep current, to understand how to communicate with college students, use technology and work with employers. My goal was to teach students how understand the current job market, develop effective interviewing skills, write professional looking resumes, etc. Keeping current is the key which is why career counselors attend a variety of conferences and workshops offered by organizations such as NACE (National Association of Colleges and Employers) or in the Western U.S., MPACE (Mountain Pacific Association of Colleges and Employers). Also in Southern California, there's an excellent association geared for career counselor who work at liberal arts and independent colleges (CLASIC – Consortium of Liberal Arts Schools & Independent Colleges). These conferences offer us the opportunity to interact with employers, students and other professionals to develop and enhance our skills and abilities. You made it sound as if Career Centers are still using techniques from the 50's. So not true. And I agree with the person who said that students must work with the career center. Too often, students wait until the final weeks of their senior year to visit the center. Perhaps you should take up the offers you have had to visit some career centers, then you might not be so quick to generalize about them. Many are using facebook, twitter, linkedlin, etc. to reach students. Almost everyone I know in the college career center world are hard-working, dedicated professionals.
Posted by Monica on January 22, 2010 at 1:44 pm | permalink |
The most important point Penelope is making is the Return on Investment.
To pay so much–even a good state school runs about 20K a year these days–often ncecessitates going hugely into debt straight out of school, with no guarantee of a job that will compensate amply enough so that repayment doesn't entail some level of poverty.
Maybe that's overstated. Point Pen is making and I've always made: Learn while you earn. Show up and do good work ANYWHERE and the chances the employer will help pay for your education WHILE YOU'RE STILL EARNING, NOT JUST PAYING OUT are very good.
And if you don't like that job, find another. Just do good work wherever you go, and you'll be ok.
But earn while you learn. Just doesn't make sense to overpay for education. Local and community colleges will offfer ample rewards for attending. And plenty of local business opportunities, contacts, networking.
And if you win the lottery the day you graduate from pricey NameBrand U, and discover it wasn't really worth all that, well, you can just go back and learn what you want to with all those winnings.
Win-Win.
Posted by Jay on January 22, 2010 at 2:15 pm | permalink |
It's funny. I don't think myself or any of my collegiate peers consistently even consider the liberal arts at all. What are they? What DO you do with a degree in the liberal arts? I don't know. I can't tell you of many people who do.
Of course, this is because I go to Georgia Tech, where my majors (Biology and Biochemistry) are considered akin to liberal arts due to the lower reliance on math, and the fact we have time to sleep most nights.
In conclusion, I'm only commenting to point out how disconnected from this post I feel. I know I will never worry about getting a job after I graduate, and neither will many of my peers.
Posted by JC on January 22, 2010 at 2:46 pm | permalink |
I completely agree with you. I've graduated from a state university in three years, thus saving about $15-17K. I look back, and I'm not quite sure that education was worth the money I spent, even though I saved quite a bit by graduation early (and also working part-time jobs).
Here's the paradox, though. I know I could have done the job I got after college (where I got promoted pretty fast and got an opportunity to do some amazing things) without a university degree, but I also know that this same employer would not have called me in for an interview had I not gotten that education. My resume would be thrown into a trashcan right away… a degree is a requirement so many times, and waiting for the workplace to evolve and to have resources to evaluate every candidate for that amazing skillset acquired without the university education is just not something worth doing. How do you break through? Even though my education was state, and therefore cheap, I still consider that an expensive line item on my resume to pass that initial screening and to get that phone call. But, again, how do you go around that?
Posted by Uli on January 22, 2010 at 4:38 pm | permalink |
Ugh. You did NOT just promote blogging as a preferable alternative to a college education, did you?
Getting a college education isn't about getting a job or getting access to information. It's about learning how to think. And learning how to think is best done in an environment where there's a professional introducing you to material that makes you think, and other students exposing you to their varying points of view. It cannot be done on the internet. The internet is good for many things, but a substitute for a college education, it isn't.
Posted by Andres on January 22, 2010 at 4:53 pm | permalink |
Some interesting points about the value of a formal education. I have often felt people go on to do some form of additional training and education without really understanding why or because they were pressured. I really enjoyed the articles by Ben that you referenced too – "Why is College (4 years, $160k) the Default?"
Posted by Michelle on January 22, 2010 at 5:12 pm | permalink |
Way to insult part of your audience. I work as a career advisor for a liberal arts institution, take classes there as well (a perk of working for a university) and I wholeheartedly disagree with you on both points.
College changes you. I went back to school after several years in the military and I was a very different student after gaining a few years of experience and perspective. A decade out of high school – when you say I could have developed all the skills employers look for all by my lonesome and found awesome, wonderful jobs with my high school diploma – I had few of the skills they were looking for. I hadn't proved myself capable of the analytical thought required in my work, nor the communication skills from osmosis in my daily life. When I went back to college I learned those skills, challenged myself, and had the time to finally explore what I wanted out of life. And the best thing I did was talk to my career center. The counselor there helped me develop the confidence to communicate my skills effectively and spent many hours helping me explore options and research pathways. She inspired me so much I wanted to do the kind of work she does. Ten years later, after graduate school and tring some things out, here I am in a job I love.
Now I help liberal arts students every day see the value of what they bring to the table with their liberal arts degrees. Even the philosophy and classics majors who always get maligned in posts like these. They have value, they get jobs, and they're damn smart people.
As for the swipe you took at EVERY SINGLE COLLEGE CAREER CENTER IN THE COUNTRY, as if you'd actually visited them – I have no words for how wrong you are. I'm going to end this because I have to go write a blog post for my career center's blog, schedule some tweets for our Twitter account, and invite my students to an event on how to use social media in the job search through our Facebook page.
Posted by Sue on January 22, 2010 at 5:15 pm | permalink |
I’d say high school career centers are more the problem.
When I graduated at age 17 in 1998, I had no idea what I wanted to do and subsequently took a year off, moving several thousand miles from my family and working for a year, before deciding that I wanted to go to college. I did not just think I needed to go; I wanted to go, because I had been working wage jobs and figured out that I needed a little more than that.
I still didn’t know what I wanted to do, though, because I went into it as an Animal Science major in the School of Agriculture at the University of Georgia. It was only when I started failing chemistry and stumbled into the career center that a caring counselor gave me a personality test and helped me figure out that I did not want to actually study the animals; I wanted to write about the people that study the animals. By helping me throw out my broken belief that science = success, I got onto a path that I have since been happy with and that is leading me ever closer to what I have always wanted to do: be a writer.
I do not bemoan the route I took to get to these conclusions, because I learned so much in the realm of life experience, but I do fault my high school for not doing a better job at promoting alternative routes for young people who think that a university right after graduation is the only respected way to go. As some readers mentioned earlier on here, what about vocational school? And I have long admired the German system for separating students early on, so that apprenticeships are more common and college prep is not the only high school curriculum, because it shouldn’t be.
Posted by Margaret on January 22, 2010 at 6:10 pm | permalink |
A big part of what keeps colleges in business is parents' hope that their kids will meet a good spouse there — someone of a similar or "better" background. Some part of tuition is our culture's replacement for dowry/brideprice/matchmaker services.
Posted by Erica on January 22, 2010 at 6:21 pm | permalink |
Great post. I have a liberal arts education and it was a great investment, but not because of the information I received. What I gained from college is a great experience where I tried new things, met interesting and diverse people, and worked hard.
This can happen almost anywhere if you can get yourself out of bed, have the motivation to gather and digest information without getting a grade for it, and can get up the nerve to try new things, meet new people and ask new questions.
Create your own internships by finding people that are doing what you want to be doing and work as closely with them as they will let you.
Posted by Grace on January 22, 2010 at 7:55 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
I appreciate the way you put ideas out there, but I had to speak up on this one. There are many fields/majors/areas that require a full college education – engineering, science, economics – any area that uses lots of math or that helps one hone a particular skill. I studied physics, and I'm so glad I went to a liberal arts college because once I got to grad school, my classmates from tech schools were often completely socially inept and barely able to communicate with each other, let alone with the public. Likewise, I believe critical thinking skills are necessary for writers or anyone who has studied humanities. After teaching at a (dirt cheap) state school, I can say in all honesty that my liberal arts education was 100% worth it. The retention rate at my undergrad institution was over 90%, and at the state school it was under 50%. I believe that there is too much stigma associated with "vocational" training, and we need to help students to attain skills that will help them find jobs, but I also think there is a place for research institutions and liberal arts colleges. We need a better mix, and a broader acceptance of differing kinds of educational paths. I saw a lot more kids wasting time and money at the state school because they dropped out or didn't have the guidance and discipline to study something a field that helped them attain marketable skills.
Posted by Elaine on January 22, 2010 at 9:54 pm | permalink |
RE: Sue on 01/22/2010 at 05:15pm (and others)
I originally posted a comment here yesterday, then came back. You know what I found interesting? Out of all the Career Center pros that posted on here, only two or three bothered to state or link to the college they're associated with. Why does that matter? I'm pretty sure that not all the people looking at this blog have degrees. I'm going back to college while working, and for those who talked about or linked to their college, of course I at least looked up their website and programs listing. Because eventually, I'm going beyond an Associates. While taking classes I'm already planning where I will go next. I'm sure I'm not the only one on the planet doing so. (For the lady at IPFW. You may get a future student next year. For the guy who posted the link to online college grad stats earlier, awesome. I will find that quite useful.)
You want to prove the blogger here wrong, link to your college! You have an opportunity to advertise the institution you work at for free, on a blog seen nationally. You can't buy advertising like that. Hell, for those who mentioned you were going to your school's Twitter or Facebook page after you finished complaining, you could have at least linked to that in your reply. Common sense. Don't just rail at the speaker that they're wrong. Show the audience your evidence.
Posted by Anon on January 22, 2010 at 11:25 pm | permalink |
The person-to-person network and community you can build at a college cannot be understated — this is the same type of network that Brazen Careerist promotes, only it is a four-years-in-the-making sort of network. I still have strong ties with a lot of people I went to college with, many of whom are doing all kinds of spectacular things. In part because I went to a small liberal arts college in a small town, the alumni network feels a strong bond with one another, and using these contacts has helped me in my career and social life, and enabled me to connect to dozens of interesting and thoughtful people.
Posted by margaret on January 23, 2010 at 7:58 am | permalink |
I think it would be interesting to ask
(1) How many career centers have you worked with
(2) List your specific experience with career centers
This would help in the validity of your thoughts and comments!
Posted by Benjamin on January 23, 2010 at 9:00 am | permalink |
Seth Godin says get your acceptance letter from a big-name MBA school, then take that letter to the company you want to work for and offer to work for them for a minimal wage for the four years instead of going to school. You will read the textbooks and study in the evening and apprentice during the day. In four years, you will have a tailored, hands-on education, a job, four years' experience, and no debt. The company will have a professional with relevant real-world experience, not a hot-shot MBA grad demanding status and a big salary to pay off student loans.
It's worth thinking about.
Posted by Nancy on January 23, 2010 at 9:10 am | permalink |
While I expected numerous people who work in career centers to opine here, none of the arguments are convincing, and most of them are of the "but mine is good" variety.
Trunk's reasoning still stands. The people who work there are not likely to be the kind of people who have networks to get you anything you could not more easily get yourself with some networking. There are exceptions, and maybe your are the exception, but you are almost certainly not the rule.
My worry is that many in such centers will do far more harm than good. The best thing that a career center can do is transform itself into a center for networking, and getting out of the advice, resume, or "placement" business. Most of the advice such centers offer about the latter is almost always too stale, too conservative, and mostly a waste of time.
If colleges want to get really serious about placement, they should start hiring more adjuncts out of industry who have passions for teaching. Those folks might actually have some good advice to offer.
Posted by Aaron Erickson on January 23, 2010 at 9:30 am | permalink |
Wow – what a horrible post. I won't begin to comment on the career center, because I see it as secondary to the worst aspect of the post. College has nothing to do with information. Sure you can self teach, but college is all about the people. Networking, networking, networking. If you're interested in a low wage job, pick the cheapest school you can get a degree in. But if you actually want a career, go to the absolute best school you can. I graduated from one of the top schools in the country and I don't regret those student loans for a second. It's all about giving yourself choices.
Posted by Sara on January 23, 2010 at 4:44 pm | permalink |
I have to 100% disagree this this generation of students are such a great bunch of communicators, at least in any kind of intellectual sense. I am an assistant professor at a distance education campus, and many of these students can barely spell their own name. (How did they even graduate from High School without being able to write a complete sentence?) They plagiarize everything since they don't know how to think critically, or write. They are not using social media to read books or discuss great works of literature or anything remotely requiring deep thought. They are Tweeting what they ate for lunch, posting their relationship status on Facebook, texting, sexting, and generally, "skimming the surface of life" (to quote the great Joyce Carol Oates) etc. They are most definitely not sitting there on their computers or SmartPhones figuring out what great works are available full-text online via Google e-books, their public library, or any other service, or posting long deep thoughts on any matters except perhaps their favorite bands.
Posted by LIz on January 23, 2010 at 8:59 pm | permalink |
I think the only thing I can ad are some good resources. You have enough opinionated commentary!
On Distance Education: Seek out a name brand school's distance ed program if you are working and returning to school or if you prefer to have more control over your "ivory tower" education. Penn state offers a variety of degrees & last I checked Harvard & Stanford offer online certificates. I read "e-Learning Pundit"'s blog. High quality online ed. will have a track record and proven interactivity between teachers and students.
I would also suggest the blog "Study Hacks" for an explanation of why/when a conventional degree is still valuable and for techniques to get you to A-grade levels.
Posted by Carol G on January 24, 2010 at 6:40 am | permalink |
P makes her point at the end when she says “you need to calculate the return on investment on going to college before you go to college so that you make sure you're going to college for rational reasons.”
This really is the bottom line – liberal arts degrees are not useless. They get you into a network. They teach you how to think, how to have self-discipline, how to socialize within your peer group, how to experience different things that help you understand the world around you. And some people might even learn something useful in class.
But the point is that they may not be worth tens of thousands of dollars to someone who won’t be positioned to pay all that back later.
High school kids get herded into a liberal arts college because it’s the next step and it’s easy to get misled into thinking the degree will easily translate into a high-paying job. They’re told to sign on the dotted line for thousands of dollars in loans without fully understanding what that means. Schools – and parents – don’t do enough to prepare them for the reality of debt and the post-graduation job market.
In the end, a cost-benefit analysis of what you want and what the degree can realistically get you is crucial. But how many 16-year-old high school kids can really do this? Most find it hard enough just to pick a major.
Posted by Juliana on January 24, 2010 at 7:04 am | permalink |
I think liberal arts are still important – but as part of life-long learning. The internet gives us the ability to do that and get an accounting or biology degree.
Posted by Marsha Keeffer on January 24, 2010 at 9:33 pm | permalink |
But when you're 17 and a senior and applying to colleges, you don't have the capacity to think about this stuff. You're just usually confused about life. I think people should work for 2-3 years out of high school and then go to college.
Posted by Irina I on January 25, 2010 at 12:55 am | permalink |
I was very disappointed in your article. I worked in a college Career Center for two years and from my experience, I find that you have mis-characterized them. I would encourage you to do better research and talk to some Career Center Directors around the country before you report on them in your blog.
"Career centers cater to companies, not candidates."
While it is true that career centers do cater to companies it is to bring in revenue in to pay for services for students, so they actually are catering to companies to better serve students (candidates) by being able to provide workshops and other services that help candidates learn HOW to interview well and actually get the jobs they are interviewing for.
"Career centers don’t understand social media."
Career center staff are very aware that social media is very important and are doing their best to create workshops and other programming and services that teach students how to leverage social media. You may want to visit the website of the biggest professional organization for career centers and employers (National Association of Colleges and Employers – NACE) and see all the resources they have to try and help both career centers and employers learn how to leverage social media. http://www.naceweb.org/SearchResult.aspx?keyword=social+media
"Career center staff is self-selecting for underperformance."
"Colleges, especially the really expensive ones, think of vocational school as pedestrian. So they track how many students go on to get a Ph.D in Russian from Columbia, but not how many students get jobs."
Actually, it's the other way around, they do a much better job of tracking how many students in each discipline get jobs than tracking how many go on to graduate school. They also don't do a good job tracking how many PhDs who start actually finish (although they do track attrition/retention of undergraduates).
I also don't agree with your advice about not paying for/getting a degree. I don't care how socially connected you are, many jobs require a degree and if you don't have one, a company will NOT hire you even if you are very competent.
"Pick a school based on their track record for getting students jobs." Here, I agree, more students and parents should ask about this when deciding on schools!
Posted by Lydia Soleil, Ph.D. on January 25, 2010 at 8:45 am | permalink |
Very provocative article– thanks for posting.
As a director of a liberal arts career center, I would take issue with the broad brush with which you paint all career centers. I provide career coaching training for NACE and interact with career center personnel across the country and I can tell you that as a group they are sincere, committed professionals who strive to provide the best services for their students. They are creative, interested in trying new technologies, and student-centered in their thinking. Many are not driven by employer demands– in fact, many career centers don't have recruiting as a primary activity.
That said, there are challenges within the industry:
1. Colleges generally do not staff career centers well. (Many of us live for the day when a career center is as well staffed as the admissions office.) It is not unusual for career centers to have 3,000 (or more) students for every career counselor on staff.
2. There is often a mismatch between student expectations and what a career center can realistically do. Part of this has to do with legal constraints around recruiting. A career center should be one piece of the job-seeker's pie, so to speak. It is one place where you can find assistance in the job search, but it should never be your only landing point. Of course you should use LinkedIn, Twitter and all sorts of internet/social media options as well. And good old-fashioned networking too. A career center cannot get you a job– even if they help, YOU will always be responsible for getting a job because you are the one in the interview room, not the career center. Get the help you can from career services and also use every other trick you can find.
3. Should there be more accountability for career services? Perhaps– I guess it depends on the institution. Most schools do keep track of the number of clients seen, number of employers recruiting, etc. The question is what to do with that information. In most schools the use of the center is optional and not all students are interested in delving into career activities while still in school– and they would resent you if you required them to use the services. Many students wait until the week before graduation to even visit the center. This is no one's fault and not necessarily a problem, except when the student has missed out on valuable connections they might have made.
My advice– use your career center NOW while you're still a student. If they don't provide what you need, have an honest conversation with the director. It may be that something has been overlooked. There may be budget or staff limitations which the director can explain– and maybe there's a way around those limitations. You won't know until you ask. If you don't feel your concerns were heard go to the Dean. My experience has been that when students have a complaint, the complaint is usually legitimate. Whether it can be solved is a matter of budget, staff, college culture, etc., but a good career center will respond to students' needs to the best of its ability. Partnering with students (and student organizations) can be a great way for a career center to remain relevant.
As to the whole issue of what to do with a liberal arts education– you might want to go to the library and take a look at my book, "You Majored in What? Mapping Your Path from Chaos to Career" which deals specifically with how you translate that valuable liberal arts education into the workplace.
Posted by Kate Brooks on January 25, 2010 at 10:34 am | permalink |
Hm… interesting points. I do think college career centers are completely lacking in social media understanding. They teach how to write an effective resume, how to personalize a cover letter and how to dress for an interview. Too bad none of that means shit anymore. Schools would be significantly more effective at getting students jobs if they stopped focusing on "traditional" job search methods.
Posted by Marian Schembari on January 25, 2010 at 11:28 am | permalink |
Hi Penelope!
This was a great post, but I wanted to take a little time to think about it before responding. I was a little disheartened when I read it because not only am I a fourth year liberal arts student, I also write a blog for our Career Services Centre. My education has at times frustrated me because I have wondered what I will ever 'do' with it. Now however I look at the last four years as an experience, like many have said in the comments, in growing up and learning to communicate with people. The same could be done with experience and vocational training, but I think the liberal arts has opened my eyes to an entire world that otherwise never existed in my suburban bubble. This was essential to me learning about what I am passionate about and what I what out of life. I am not going to define myself by my degree or make it the sole focus in my job search, because I have also gone to great lengths to gain real experiences outside the lecture hall. I do think this is essential for all university students because learning in a classroom can only get you so far. Things like exchanges, internships, co-ops, and even working while in school can all add to a more well rounded experience.
I will say this about the Career Services Centre at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario: I only started attending seminars and workshops this year so I would have something to write about for Water Cooler Gossip. Before that I had absolutely no interest. As I have written in my blog, I think the best thing about the centre and what they offer is they allow students the time to sit down, reflect, analyze, and consider all their options. Many students (myself included) do not make the time to do this. I have found Career Services beneficial because it opened the doors to a huge wealth of information (on the internet, in books, etc.) that I would have otherwise never have known. With all things in life, I take the advice with a grain of salt and assess what will work for me and what won't. This is the advice I give on the blog, because not everyone will take away the same things from a meeting with a career counselor.
Ps. Your blog was introduced to me by someone in Career Services, so they must be doing something right!
Posted by Gabi on January 25, 2010 at 11:32 am | permalink |
I went to a small state school that probably cost about $30k for all four years. I got my degree in Political Science because I thought it was interesting and it allowed me the time to do other things, like be really involved with leadership organizations. While in college I almost failed out one year because I would stay up until 4am learning how to do HTML. I received my degree in Poly Sci and 4 years later was making six figures doing Information Architecture and Account Management, creating websites for pharma companies. My degree didn't get me anything but a check-mark next to my name. What got me my job was my leadership and communication skills I learned via my involvement and my time on the "how to learn html" websites back in 2000. I couldn't agree more.
Posted by Jackie on January 25, 2010 at 11:36 am | permalink |
One of the most frustrating things to me as a recruiter is college grads who act they deserve the job because they just finished grad school. Brand are not hiring their entry level leaders based on a degree but on relevant experience. I can't agree more with your insight from this post. Getting ready for the real world is a thoughtful mix of education and experience. Getting a BA is the new high school diploma.
Posted by JenJacobs on January 25, 2010 at 3:36 pm | permalink |
There are some relevant points in this blog, but on the whole there are some incredible generalizations that i believe are lacking in substance and proof.
I do work in a career center but am from a corporate recruitment background so am keenly aware of the realities of the corporate world. That said i agree entirely that career centers should be more accountable in terms of the statistics it maintains in terms of jobs upon graduation. But the writer must understand that the typical college student is not inclined to take the time to visit their career center. Much of the energy of most career centers is spent in the promotion of its services, the students are mainly focused on grades and ignore the fact that they need to be developing a network, developing those career skills needed to be competitive in the market.
To give social media such a prominent role in a career search is ludicrous. Indeed Social Media can be a powerful tool on occasion, but to suggest that the big companies and corporate recruiters are trawling blogs and Facebook pages for talented recent grads to the detriment of all other recruiting strategies is simply a ludicrous claim. yes they have a presence there but i would argue they place much more stock in the student who makes a more personal connection. I'm confident some telling connections have and can be made via social media and many social media seminars are offered through the career center in an attempt to encourage students to be "LinkedIn" and to be networking online, but they do need to be able to hold an in person conversation aswell.
It is also possible to be successful without a college degree, but getting a job is not the only reason to go to college. It is a place to learn, grow and develop so that once you are out in the global economy you can function in a global way of thinking. To suggest that this can be replaced with online chats and information gathering sessions online is mind-boggling. The connections made, intellectual disagreements had and memorable professors available in college make college a pivotal player in being ready for a successful career.
I would invite the writer to spend a day in any career center and understand the nature of the environment in order to deliver a more telling piece of writing.
Posted by Michael Armstrong on January 25, 2010 at 4:30 pm | permalink |