I think it would be a shame to forget the idea of a liberal arts education, as I think broad knowledge about the world is lacking in our society, and the internet is only an adequate replacement for the most motivated of students.

That said, I think it's shocking that it costs $30,000 – in a cost/benefit analysis this is one sure sign of a broken education system.

I also wouldn't mistake the liberal arts education for vocational training – if you want to get a job then you should do a vocational degree, or vocational post-grad work, or simply get a job that doesn't require a degree.

It is great that you distinguish between vocational training and liberal arts education. Most students going to college think they can study English, or photography, or some other hobby-type major, and that their degree will get them an interesting job.

Students shouldn't get vocational degrees until they know what they want to study, and they shouldn't study liberal arts until they can afford it – because it IS a hobby.

Some people are perfectly content and self-sufficient to coop themselves up in their basements writing code and remaining blissfully unaware of the world around them. Not what I would want, but who am I to judge? Studying Victorian history is a hobby – you're better off reading books from the library and maybe taking a class or two in the subject than going for an entire degree in it.

love this post. my husband and i were just bemoaning college career centers the other day, and what a poor job they do to set you up for employment success.

EXACTLY! I wish more people realized how important it is to be able to get a job out of college – and that getting a job is your ultimate goal, and matters more than the name of the college on your diploma.

I'm so glad you're questioning the value of even going to college, which until recently has seemed a more or less untouchable subject. I just graduated from an obnoxiously pricey private university with a liberal arts degree, and I already realize that it wasn't worth the money. (Most of which I haven't paid yet.)

The name of the university doesn't matter nearly enough anymore for it to cost that much. And the fact that it's famous and private doesn't mean the education was any better than what I could have gotten at a public school. I did appreciate how much my professors stretched my horizons and ability to think critically in my first year, right out of high school. Though I'm not sure how much that was worth to me (probably less than $60k).

Beyond that, though, I'm pretty sure I would have learned a lot more if I just spent the rest of that time reading books instead of going to college. I totally think it's important to learn to think about subjects that are not necessarily applicable to a job, and am motivated to do so on my own. But I think at this point, college often functions more as an intermediate stage between high school and the "real world", where you can send kids who aren't ready to get their own place, get a job, coordinate their own schedules, learn on their own, etc. Like astronomically expensive daycare.

So I agree that it's so important for people to be clear on why exactly they're going to college.

Great thoughts, as usual. But while people are out there rolling their own their liberal arts degrees on the interwebs, they need to do something that builds a work ethic. I hire lots of liberal arts grads. I'd rather hire people with a useful work ethic and teach them social media than hire another social media master with a sense of entitlement the size of the White House Christmas tree.

Without a work ethic, you're gonna be in the way most of the time, no matter how well-trained you are.

I completely agree here…Having worked in IT for 15 years, I've worked with people with degrees and people who learned by "doing" and skipping college. I can say, generally speaking, that those who didn't go to college didn't have the same work ethic as the ones who did — and carried a "I'm smarter than everyone else" attitude to boot. College is a great place to grow up: community, liberal arts or otherwise. I have yet to meet/hire/work with a 19 or 20 year old that put 100% into their 40-hour (or more) work week, didn't expect a 6-figure income out of the gate, and realized that they could learn things from everyone around them.
Bottom line: don't skip the college education — it has a lot more to offer than just reading and writing.

While I recognize that getting a job outside of college is important, I don't think advocating for people to stop receiving a liberal arts education is the way to go. For one, a liberal arts education provides people with a lot of skills that you can't learn on your own. Sure, you may be able to get an interesting conversation started with a blog, but that doesn't necessarily mean you are a good writer. I am amazed at some of the people at my grad school who chose to go to a state school and never really learned how to write or think critically. I also have numerous other friends who went to state school and it took them 5-7 years to finish, instead of the 4 years that it takes most people for a private liberal arts education. There is much more guidance and personal attention given when class sizes are small. I didn't have to waste time figuring out what I wanted to do (and the incentive of paying more money also provided a needed push).
I'm part of the generation that grew up with social media and there are so many benefits that I would be without if it wasn't for a liberal arts education. A solid education from a solid school paves the way to a high quality grad school.
While I agree that specific interviews arranged by career centers may not be useful, career centers are important for connecting students with alumni. Networking and informational interviews would be a lot harder to come by without their services.
Instead of advocating for people to rethink going to small liberal arts schools, maybe a better focus is to advocate for people to take on jobs and internships during school so that they build valuable skills in addition to their education.

I agree with this comment, but mainly because the US high school system is so lacking. You should be able to write properly and think critically by the time you leave high school. College should build on that and let you explore chosen topics in more depth.

High school should also give you a basic knowledge of history and geography literature and a working understanding of science.

That said, I don't think college just has to be vocational and about finding jobs – that's such a hideous reductionist view of education.

I agree that a lot of people go to grad school for the wrong reasons. I know there are a lot of people who just enroll because they don't know what else to do (just look at this years application and enrollment figures – the highest ever because of the economy and high unemployment). However, there are a lot of us out there that have had grad school as the ultimate goal from the beginning. I planned on going to law school before I even started college. Had I chosen a state school it is very likely I would have been lost in the crowd and would not have received the same opportunities that were available to me with going to a smaller school. That likely could have changed the outcome of which schools I was accepted to.
Like Caitlin noted, a lot of students are lacking in basic skills when they leave high school. While Stanford students may find writing for the internet more rewarding, they are also learning many writing skills through their liberal arts education that they can later apply to blogging. It is unlikely that many of them were going straight to blogging before taking any type of college course.
Like Caitlin also pointed out, going to college is about a lot more than just pursuing a job. It's about figuring out who you are as a person, challenging your morals and values, learning more about the world around you and finding joy in learning. One of my professors always used to tell us that in picking a major or object of study we should pick not based on the career we want but based on what we would find the most fulfilling. She called it the lottery decision, "If you won the lottery on graduation day and never had to work another day in your life, would you look back at your selection of courses of study as worthwhile or a waste of time." The value of liberal arts is that it is versatile and can transition to a multitude of careers. Sure you might have to pay your dues at entry level and work your butt off to develop connections, but that is what most people face. Even those who don't go to school.

A liberal arts education is not just rhetoric.

When I look back on my liberal arts education, the value was in professors forcing me to reason about a view of the world that was not my own (philosophy), and showing me that I was wrong regularly in my understanding of how the world worked (physics).

Logic, science, and rhetoric are the three legs of a solid liberal arts education (some would also include creating art, but I don't believe creativity is taught well in a college setting). These three are what make a liberal arts education more valuable than a vocational education like engineering or nursing.

I agree that blogging and social media allow other avenues for honing rhetorical skills.

Since rhetoric is the major piece missing from an engineering degree, perhaps everyone should just major in engineering and have a topical blog on the side. :-)

Very few engineering majors complain they can't find a job after college…

"I am amazed at some of the people at my grad school who chose to go to a state school and never really learned how to write or think critically. I also have numerous other friends who went to state school and it took them 5-7 years to finish, instead of the 4 years that it takes most people for a private liberal arts education."

So many generalizations, I don't even know where to start. Are you saying that public education is worse than private? That's not true. Also, most of the people going to a state school finish in 4 years – that fact is not exclusive of small private liberal arts colleges.

In addition, you make a distinction of how those (such as yourself) who go to a small school, get more personal attention and guidance. Someone who stands out amongst his/her peers in a giant university is a much better hire over anyone with all that personal attention.

Plus, I'm not sure I need an additional $30K in tuition fees to give me an extra push to figure out what I want to do. That's a silly concept. Again, a better hire is someone who can manage getting that education – fast and with as little expenses as possible.

My kids have attended/are attending Princeton. I didn't send either of them there with an ROI in mind. My father's foresightedness has made it possible for me to be price-neutral in the college decision. In our situation, I don't doubt for one minute that the experience, the time with professors, the Disneyland for smart kids that is Princeton, has been a gift they will long value. I can't say what the choice looks like for others looking to pay full price.

But here's another thing. Princeton's Career Services rocks. Their alumni network rocks. So even if I HAD factored in earning potential, the equation might still have produced the same answer. I am not refuting your argument, simply added another piece of data. It's important not to let sour grapes color the analysis.

Agree. Unless you're choosing between Princeton and similar or a free ride elsewhere. Which turns out to be a passionate issue in the world of college admissions. http://www.collegeconfidential.com lives and breathes this stuff.

True, the moneyed and lucky are relatively few and far between, but their situation gives the problem of what education is "worth" an interesting perspective.

I'm a schoolteacher at a prep school that sends kids to Ivy League schools every year. The weird thing is that kids and parents have an almost carnal attraction to a very few brand names. They can't get enough of Vanderbilt, USC, Boston University, and Colby, but if you mention UVA, Washington University in St. Louis, Kenyon, or Grinnell, they'll look at you like you just asked them to eat mold. It's not price that counts with these folks; it's a perpetually fluctuating cachet.

I did my undergrad at Harvard a couple years ago, though, and THAT was worth the markup. The career services were incredible, and having that stamp of approval on the top of my resume at least gets me an interview a lot of the time. (Oh, and the education was superb, but I'm pretty much the only person from my class and major – history – who currently has a job related to that major.)

In conclusion: judge the worth of the brand accurately, and know that you're paying a premium for a label. Some labels are worth it; some really aren't.

I went to Franklin & Marshall (now pushing 50k a year) and it was a total waste of four years and a lot of money (even tho i got mostly a full ride I still owe a few thousand dollars). I'm sure there are people who go thru the accounting or pre-med programs there who get a lot out of them, but its LA program is laughable and worthless because graduates aren't going to get jobs to pay off their loans more than a couple hundred bucks a month.

If i could undo one decision in life it would be college choice. I tell any teenager I can get close enough to talk to that if it's not Stanford or Harvard, go to SUNY Binghamton.

Went to F&M myself for almost 3 years in the 80's. Leaving that school is my own biggest regret. If I had it to do over again I'd have probably chosen University of Maryland, but I think F&M is a good school.

Spent 5 years getting a B.Sc in Engineering that cost me 20K (in tuition and books… obviously the opportunity cost of not working full-time for 5 years is significant and unaccounted for)

Had two job offers in the 40K/year range after looking for about 3 weeks.

Lesson = Get an engineering degree

Oh… and go to a canadian university. Equivalent quality at a fraction of the cost.

I too spent 5 years getting a BS in engineering. My first year was spent at a small private liberal arts college but then I started worrying about how my degree wouldn't really qualify me to "do" anything nor pay future bills, so I transferred out to a large public university (via a community college for one year) and changed my major to engineering. My first job out of college had a sweet paycheck (though not as sweet as the paychecks of all the computer science majors I know). But as soon as the economy started tanking I lost my job. Over a year later I'm still job hunting.

I was waiting to see if other engineers posted on here because some of the LA majors think it's some sort of panacea for getting a job. Right now, it's not. Maybe back in 2004 or 1999. Not now though.

I think the thing that people studying LA should realize is that practical education is stressed very strongly for engineers. I spent 2 semesters and all 3 summers working at engineering firms after my Sophomore year. The ones that don't do internships and (more importantly) co-ops? They are the ones who end up in grad school.

So my suggestion would be for Liberal Arts based co-ops (assuming they are possible, see Penelope's post about not getting paid for internships). I say co-ops because you need to be doing it for more than a summer. I was basically a full time worker for the equivalent of 2 years during my college years.

And yet after all of this writing, I still would have to agree with Marc KS: Get an engineering degree (because of all the cool stuff you can do, jobs are just a bonus and never guaranteed).

Mechanical and Civil engineers still don't have much problems finding jobs (in Canada it is still EASY)

I hardily agree however… don't choose eng for A job, choose it because the jobs it offers rock – even straight out of college.

That and the extracurriculars for engineers during university are insanely fun.

I think a related issue here is that our society has deemed a college education debt-finance acceptable. Which is a critical factor in the decision making process of college vs. Ben's experience model. If you have limited resources, we allow you access to credit, in order to finance sanctioned human capital investments. The ones rated "AAA" if you will ;).

I don't see the same treatment of trips to Argentina, Chile, Cyprus… and posting to a blog rather than formal writing assignments. (I'm a fan of Ben's too.)

But maybe I'm wrong. I'm willing to be challenged on this.

Also there is a credentialism aspect of college education.

So in the marketplace we have one route that is subsidized, celebrated, and politically protected. The alternatives have none of those benefits. Not surprising to me why high school seniors blindly fill out applications for admission. (Myself included way back when.)

It's posts like this and Ben's blog that might change the celebrated part. Thanks!

I think there are some very good points on both sides here. I went to a private college which was expensive then (class of '91) and even more so now. I don't regret having gone there at all. Although I didn't know it when I chose the school, their communication school was all about networking. Their career office sends students to LA each year to meet alums working in film, and have many similar netowrking/learning programs for the other diciplines. I recently participated in a networking night for students and know that if I need job search help I can go to the the office and they'll plug me further into the alumni network. (I should mention that the career office is specifically for the students/alums of the communication school.) They also pushed the internship route during school, for the experience on your resume, but also to see if the work area was truly what you wanted to do after graduating.

Yes, I do wonder now with the costs of college so high now if it is worth it for communication majors to pay so much and then get what will be a low paying job to start.

But, I also knew a number of kids in school who were just there to get a degree, assuming a job would just be handed over when they graduated. They all tended to major in Liberal Arts or generic Business. That experience makes me wonder when people tell me college was a "waste" if it was the educational offerings that were really the problem.

Another great topic to discuss in relation to this is the ever increasing college teacher salaries, skyrocketing tuition costs and college teachers having "tenure."

I'll respond to your post from the angle of someone who was persuaded away from a liberal arts degree by my parents, who instead steered me towards my second choice of economics through Penn State's business school, and got my first job via Craigslist, not the career center (although I was a pretty active visitor there for my entire junior and senior years).

I wanted so badly to major in International Relations and just study countries all day and then, when I was an econ major, to just study developing countries instead of going to econometrics class. But what helped me get the job in the end? Not my Hebrew minor (which I studied for with a passion that outdid many of my other classes) or my political science class, but the fact that I remembered and could analyze formulas from econometrics, and the fact that I had concrete experience working as an assistant in an econ experiment lab.

I would say this is the biggest problem for colleges: they teach thinking skills and how to live as an adult, but not solid technical skills (like programming, math, and how to manage finances) that actually get you the jobs and prepare you for success in adult life. I was just talking with my husband about this the other day, and we decided

So yes, if you are looking for a job in the real world, liberal arts is the wrong way to go, unless you are supplanting it with solid skills. However, that's not a reason NOT to get an education. Because, like someone said upthread, you can't even get a secretarial job without a B.S. these days.

Because Ben Casnocha is not an example for everyone to follow (I doubt I would have had the self-discipline to teach myself things like college professors made me learn.) And because, like everyone says, your college GPA is meaningless after a few years, but I doubt I would have been hired into my first job and the launching point of my career if mine weren't up to par.

I seem to recall that someone did a study of various degrees in the UK and took into account loss of earnings during study, cost of tuition and so on, and compared it extra earnings due to having a degree.

They found that certain arts subjects (like philosophy) had a negative effect overall.

Of course, what none of this considers whether better people go to college. In other words, when comparing salaries of college leavers vs the rest, we aren't considering like with like.

P: This comment has started a good debate on this topic, but it is among the wrong people. You may be convincing people who do not, or did not, want to go to college, that it is or was a bad idea. I think the "liberal arts" should be a focus, but not the focus, of college. Everyone benefits from knowing basic rules of logic and a brief history of philosophy, for example. And literature, too. Your argument neglects – perhaps because of its broad brush, which is a fault of social media – the benefit to all society of a populace that has a basic knowledge of these liberal arts, of history, of music, of art. I am not saying you are wrong, in fact as president of the Bank of Dad, I can safely say you are right, mostly. I am saying that your message, patterned to fit this particular medium, can be misunderstood as a call to abandon pursuit of knowledge to become a better, all-around member of society.

" … going to college is about a lot more than just pursuing a job. It's about figuring out who you are as a person, challenging your morals and values, learning more about the world around you and finding joy in learning."

I *partly* agree with this. The problem is that a) college is prohibitively expensive, and b) you need to be able to support yourself, and have your own money. Do you want to have to sleep on your buddy's couch? Mooch off of your parents until you are middle-aged? Try to find a spouse who will support you? (People aren't exactly lined up down the block, looking for a spouse they can support.) You have to get the 'needs' covered before you move on to the 'wants.'

Having said that, I agree about discovering who you are, learning about the world, and challenging your own views. Is it possible to take college classes here and there, throughout your life, and experience this? Is it really necessary to spend four years after high school engaged in … four more years of high school? Drinking beer from bongs? Can you meet interesting people through work who challenge your thinking? Just something to consider.

"If you won the lottery on graduation day and never had to work another day in your life, would you look back at your selection of courses of study as worthwhile or a waste of time."

Gee, that's great … if you never have to work a day in your life.

I think a lot of this is colored by Penelope's grad school experiences. But I also think that this post works against itself. Why?

It conflates what you learn at a university with what services are provided by that university's career center. These are, actually, two separate issues. They can be linked, but I don't think that's done effectively here.

And as it conflates, it meanders back and forth between the two. The progression isn't orderly, and neither is the thought process. The result? I'm not persuaded. I'm not even persuaded to see it as a well-thought-out position, much less agree with it.

Why are we waiting until college to teach critical thinking and life skills? And why does a $50k per year school have a monopoly on the subject?

I suspect a.) we don't want younger kids to have said skills, otherwise, they might outargue their teachers or parents and b.) if we did teach this, we would be left with $50k a year schools that teach… what again?

One thing that is becoming very evident is that many people on this thread do not know the difference between anecdote and data. I am speaking to you, career counselors, who come here and say "because my center is awesome, all centers must be". I am also speaking to the "I went to the liberal arts college, and now I have sufficient critical thinking skill to commit critical thinking errors about generalizing the affect of expensive liberal arts college on critical thinking skill".

Not so much that we don't want them to have those skills, but that public schools are not set up to provide them. They must teach to tests, deal with ALL the kids in the class (and not just the motivated ones, etc.). Compare this to the kinds of skills taught at any good private high school – you're getting a mini liberal arts degree simply because they're allowed to demand "more" as an elite school.

Also, don't forget that many students in high school have parents who STILL don't have critical thinking skills.

Word. To everything you just said.

This makes me think parents would be spending their money better to send their kids to good private schools during the grades K-12. But most parents can't afford that. Even if (and this already puts them in the minority) they have the resources to squirrel away money for their kids' education, it's not going to amount to anything until the kids are older. How is a 32-year-old, having their first kid, supposed to find the cash to pay for a private K-12 education?

"I suspect a.) we don't want younger kids to have said skills, otherwise, they might outargue their teachers or parents"

Okay, show of hands. When you were in school, did your parents encourage you to a) be well-behaved, or b) learn the material? This is not to be confused with "getting good grades." Such an interesting brain exercise … do teachers give good grades to students who truly learn the math, or do they give them to the students who are obedient and don't give them trouble? In that light, were your parents CORRECT to emphasize good behavior over cognitive development? If you had been bullied in school by a teacher, would your parents have stood up for you, or assumed you were being a brat and punished you? As alluded to earlier, it really stinks that the K-12 education system lets kids down so badly. And did you know it costs the taxpayers about $10K a year per kid?

I sense a 'bubble' in education, just like there have been bubbles in mortgages and consumer debt. Cars, too, probably. I loosely define a bubble as something that people have been willing to pay too much for, for too long a time. Why do we do this? Why do we care what the Joneses are doing? You look at what they're spending, and assume they must be making a lot of money, and therefore they must be really smart, and therefore the rest of us should be doing what they are doing. How do you know they make a lot of money? Maybe they just spend a lot. Vanderbilt, whatever.

But, you know until I read your comment, I just assumed that everybody else did the same things at their offices that we do. Maybe they really don't.

To Aaron's: "One thing that is becoming very evident is that many people on this thread do not know the difference between anecdote and data. I am speaking to you, career counselors, who come here and say "because my center is awesome, all centers must be".

But one person CAN extrapolate that because she had a bad experience with her career center, all career centers therefore are bad … and that's acceptable to you?

Penelope, I always love your posts on talking truthfully about the value of college. Let's start a college revolution movement. Sure, there were things I loved about college (the history of calligraphy, microeconomics, Jane Austen) but there were many more that I hated. And since my education saddled both myself and my parents with significant debt, mostly I just feel guilty and ripped off.

Penelope,

Just a quick newsflash re: Liberal Arts degrees. An increasing number of business schools are incorporating the Liberal Arts into their MBA programs, finally realizing that a linear, quantitative approach to supposed "management" progams has contributed to the financial crisis and the decline of American innovation. It took a while, but solid management thinkers like McGill University's Henry Mintzberg, who's hammered the crap out of biz schools for the past two decades, are finally being listened to.

With a Liberal Arts background (like yours truly with two M.A.s and fully employed for 30 years), you have flexibility and broader opportunities than the unemployed software engineer who's watching the Indian dude with a H1-B visa work for a lower salary.

I agree that in some instances the benefits of a college education can be overrated. In my job I am regularly fixing problems caused or exacerbated by people with a Bachelor's or higher. However I don't discount all the benefits either.

You see, I have no degree to speak of. My job is one that normally goes to people with a Bachelor's or Master's. I landed it by shear luck and 18 months or searching. I wear four 'hats' – tech support, systems engineer, network analyst and business development. I've been going back to college ever since I took the job. This is because I've already hit the glass ceiling. Plus without a degree I'm "handcuffed" to my job so to speak. Despite my experience and willingness to learn new skills, I'll take between a $10-$20K a year pay cut almost anywhere else, for the lack of a piece of paper. I'm pretty sure my employer has figured this out.

I would also agree that the career center and in some instances the counseling office are all but useless. When you have to wait in the walk-in line for 2 hours minimum to ask for an appointment 2 weeks in the future, it's clear that customer service is not a priority. What kills me most of all is that you can't even get practical advice on where the field is going from these people. I'm not trying to to become an academic. I'm obtaining a set of skills to allow me to get a better job to support my family. Considering my skill set is all over the place – electronics, satellite comms, LANs/WANs, network security and a little programming – if I have to specialize it should obviously be in something that I might actually get hired for. I'm also taking a little rhetoric/argumentation – it has its place as I've found out.

Okay, rant's over. What I'm saying is I can't be the only 34 year-old vet going to college and working. I would think that the colleges would figure this out and take it into account. Or maybe I'm expecting too much, eh?

I just had this discussion with a good friend of mine! Perfect timing! I'm finally getting my bachelor's degree this summer after a long and arduous journey. When I look around, everyone that I know who has a bachelor's degree is working at the same job they had before they graduated! What does that mean? Did we miss the mark? Is the degree irrelevant? Right now I’m getting pressured to go to law school since I work as a paralegal. It doesn’t make sense to me if there isn’t a clear and concise plan that I am excited about! I totally agree that you need to calculate the ROI and not just go to school because you can’t find anything better to do. However, I must say that some people really do need college for the experience and the opportunity to grow. Some people really need to know what it’s like to be the only person responsible for your successes or failures. Sometimes, it really is about the experience.

I'd pass on law school. I don't know what it's like where you are at geographically, but where I live (Minneapolis) the market for lawyers is terrible. A friend of mine works at one of the better firms, and he told me that he feels for anyone attempting to get into law right now. Most of the new graduates end up as debt collection attorneys.

It's funny you say don't go because I've had a number of people, including a partner at a very successful law firm here in New York, tell me to go and not to think twice about it. They all say two things: (1) By the time I graduate the market will be different and (2) lawyers have opportunities that other people don't have even if they don't practice. Who knows what the truth really is? It's all a matter of perception.

Hey, in this market being a debt collection attorney isn't a bad thing. At least they have a job. There are actually a lot of things you can do with a law degree, including teaching, consulting, working at the federal or state levels. The government needs attorneys too. It's all in how you look at it, how you market yourself and, though I hate to say it, who you know. If you go to law school be sure to intern, temp, network like crazy. If you can get recommendations or even references along the way in those temp/internship positions, do that too. Build a portfolio. I think what most people fail to realize now is that going to college is just part of the work. It no longer guarantees you a job, you have to work hard to get one.

Indeed the market may be good for debt collection attorneys now (though I am not quite sure how any debt collector is actually able to collect anything from unemployed folks with not an asset to their name) but what about longevity? Joey mentioned that there are multiple things you can do with a law degree without practicing. Absolutely. However, will you be able to afford to pay off the student debt (assuming you take out loans) in one of these positions? We're definitely talking in generalizations here though. It's an individual thing based on job prospects where you live or if you are willing to relocate for an offer.

A law degree without specific prior experience is no help whatsoever in getting a job in teaching, consulting, politics, or working in the federal government. And 40% of all law school graduates have more than $100,000 in debt, which is not dischargeable in bankruptcy.

I know you mean well, but please stop telling people it's a good idea to spend three years and $100,000 learning "how to think like a lawyer," and really, almost nothing else.

There are only 759,000 lawyers employed in the US, but 45,000 people graduate law school every year. There is no profession today that will ever grow fast enough to absorb that kind of oversupply. And now that many low-level legal jobs are shipped to non-lawyers in other countries, while large firms have laid off 14,000 people since the start of the recession, the legal profession is actually not growing at all.

Law school is not a safe bet, and hasn't been for some time.

I love your blog–you are articulate, smart, and say what you think in an interesting way. I often agree with you, but this time, I have a few tiny bones to pick.
I have a Masters, and 30 years of experience in business communication. In the years I was looking for a job, I was told several times that I didn't get the job because I did not go to an impressive-enough college, although my years of experience should have shouted a lot louder then the location of the degree.

I teach business communication (in businesses) to a variety of age groups. Many of those people who are experts in social networking are poor speakers, can't form a decent argument (or a reason their way to a logical decision), can't make eye contact, don't recognize facial expressions or body language, can't concentrate on a piece longer than 150 words, and lack grammar skills. Texting and having 10,000 followers on Twitter don't make them experts in communication. I went to a liberal arts college and learned analytical thinking, good grammar, writing skills and logic there, and practiced it over a 30-year career. I think college is a vital step to becoming a rational, thinking adult. At least it was when I went.

I just want to point out Penelope's undergraduate education history: a BA in history from Brandeis – she's not exactly practicing what she preaches, is she? Plenty of people find a liberal arts education valuable and manage to navigate a successful career without much help from the college career center.

Ay, Penelope, you've outdone yourself with this post. So education is only about a career? College is merely some chute to pass through on your way to a job? Puh-leeze. Most of us – myself included – would never have been exposed to new books, ideas, concepts and people had we not gone to college. To calculate "ROI" in career terms is to buy into a debased notion of what education is all about. And God forbid that my kid's Facebook page scratchings be thought of as good "communication." Regardless of the name brand or prestige, some kind of advanced – and formal – education always has a good "ROI" regardless of whatever career you pursue…

True on the count of being exposed to books. I would have never read Dante had it not been for my Humanities class. That book was creepy, but I enjoyed it. There are more benefits to college than just getting a job. However, I think most people who pay out the money college cost now, do it so they can get a career.

Hi P,
I was by here yesterday reading the comments and agree with your basic opinion. I'm a boomer who became disabled because of my vocation. How do you become disabled from being an electronic technician? It's a long story but the short of it is my wife supported me for two years before all of the "experts" finally declared I was disabled. My SSDI income is only a fraction of what I was making but it is pretty good if you work for 30 years. Then out of the blue comes Mass Rehabilitation Commission (MRC) who's deal was to me, that they would pay for my education where (WE) opted for Management not in IM Management as I requested. I went to a very expensive state school that really didn't care what direction I headed in as long as they got there money which they did. I loved my Liberal Arts classes and the writing experience. Finding out what is and has been going in in the world at 50 something is enlightening. The point I would like to make here is most of my research was done on the internet. If you want to get a pulse on what Americans know educated or not just was J-walking on Jay Leno, it is sad. The school I went to and wish I could afford had some great professors but the schools bottom line, was the bottom line.

Maybe my liberal arts education would have helped me had I gone to a decent school, but I went to a podunk small town University with an atrophied media department. I couldn't tell you what I learned, only that I finished. Now here I am, four years out of school with jobs under my belt I could have gotten without college (all entry-level), and currently unemployed going on a year. I even tried to get an internship at an ad agency in town, and they said "you're not in college, go away." I'm trying to educate myself by working at your damn place for free!

Don't go on autopilot and just go to college just because your parents think it's an Absolute Good, kids.

Oh, I feel for you. I was out of work for over a year and you are right about the internships. God, even volunteering at places is getting difficult. I hope you find something soon, at least to get you by until you find something you want.

As for jobs post college. Well I had better jobs before I went to college, with major companies. Then I moved, went to school and pretty much every job I have had since I ended up getting simply because I had a college degree. They didn't care what it was in, only that I had one.

Penelope,
I agree with you 100% about paying 40K for a mid-tier school. I have always said this–I went to a large state university which had its pros and cons, but my friends who went places like BU got the same education for waaaayyyyyy more money. And I still got to do a junior year abroad where I went to a completely different kind of school in England and learned SO much–mostly about educating myself.

After you get your first job, where you got your degree matters less and less with each passing year,–unless you went to an Ivy League school because 1) they take care of their own 2) it still impresses people–and it could be that what impresses is a tinier subset anyway, mostly Harvard and Yale, and some places not ivy like Stanford.

Save your money. Go to a state school. OH, it's also so competitive to teach in higher ed, that good smart people work everywhere, and often, at the big places, you never see the big names they brag about having and get taught by grad students anyway.

After scanning through the comments, I can't agree with you entirely.

Statistically, those with a degree make more money over their lifetime. What sucks, is that most recent grads start out in an entry level job. No one wants to hire someone with an education and no experience.

It's also important to note that not every school costs 30K a year. Otherwise, it would be impossible for a lot of students to go to school. (information like this is something you overlook quite often…)

AND I think that by toting this idea, you are more or less stating that more jobs should be obtained without getting a degree. But then that only leaves the specialized areas requiring extra schooling. Which, in time, will leave our country split; the smart ones who specialized and the ones who didn't get an education past high school-and our public high schools aren't doing too great. This eventually could lead to the 'dumbing down' of America. So really, your argument should be that college shouldn't be this expensive.

Although I do think that vocational schools are great, its not great for everyone, or every profession. In the end, I think a variety of education is worth it and necessary-but it needs to remain affordable.

There's a place in the world for liberal arts degrees and always will be.

I'd like to see people know themselves better and have clearer goals before they head to higher education of any type. A liberal arts degree is still a great fit for lots of people. So are vocational degrees. The key, of course, in whatever field you choose is being motivated to do your best, and performing well. It's more than just "work ethic," it's finding your work to be engaging and challenging and fulfilling.

Do you really think a job-focused education is always the right thing when we know that the job market can move so quickly? Nurses are hot right now — what about in 15 years? Your job-specific degree might get you a job in the current economy, but as things shift, do you have the skills to transfer to a different field? Social networking and blogs have changed things, yes – but there will be another big thing to come after Blogger and Facebook. I don't disagree that kids need to be more careful about where they go and how much it costs, but the socialization, education, and achievements earned by spending a few years on a college campus getting a liberal arts degree are still worth something long-term.

It's popular to say that career centers are terrible. It's what many people–especially those who didn't use them in college or only went once–like to say.

But I disagree with you, and the ideas in this blog post. For starters, the latest information I can find from the Census says that people with bachelor's degree can expect to earn an average of almost a million more over the course of their careers than people who don't have degrees.
And while social networking is important online, connecting with alumni face-to-face and through informational interviews is one of the best ways to land a first job. Because alumni frequently are incredibly loyal to their alma mater and their fellow community that it creates–regardless of their opinions on administration or the effectiveness of the campus career service office.

Yesterday I finished a workshop series of three presentations on social media at Dartmouth College. Departments across campus are actively using social media to engage and connect with students and their alumni and Career Services is jumping into the game. But social media aside, their graduates are doing well–according to a Payscale.com survey, Dartmouth graduates have the highest median salaries in the country ten years post-graduation. One of the most accessed website links at the college? The alumni career network. (It's a quick way to make connections regardless of what field you are in.)

I've asked my LinkedIn network group and blog readers to weigh in on this debate, thanks for sparking a thought-provoking discussion.

This is an interesting topic to because of my own university experiences. As a high school student I got it in my head that I wanted to go to Georgetown University's Foreign Service School. I busted my ass to get in, only to have a significant 'NOW WHAT?' kind of letdown. For many of us, going to a fancy schmancy liberal arts school is the pretext by which we are able to escape our homes with parental support. Had I chosen any other major I would have ended up at the local state university. My parents were so thrilled to have a daughter at GU that they coughed up the tuition and I got away. It was a good school, but I was keen to escape my parents, my home town and in retrospect, myself. It wasn't until I got halfway through GU that I realized that it was an excellent education that was in many ways wasted on me – because I had other issues i had to deal with before i could get on with my life. Since I've had cancer twice (expensive even with insurance) and since I chose to then get a degree in a relatively low paying field for which I have passion, I'm still paying off my student loans from GU.

In retrospect, I wish I had gone to the cheaper state school. I would have encountered the same issues of self, but I wouldn't still be paying off my tuition at age forty something. I did find a lot of paid internships that directed me to my alternate career during my years at GU, but i found them on my own rather that with any career center assistance. I was in DC and at the time the place was ripe with internships. I think that the career center would have been horrified that my typical GU type internships persuaded me that I would chew my arm off to escape the associated jobs. For the record, i worked for my senator, my representative in her home office doing constituent support, for an accounting office of a restaurant chain, for a lobbying law firm and for a think tank.

After these internships, i began planning my transition to my alternate career. It was twenty years ago which was pre internet, so there wasn't that much information available for my change. I found that the career center was completely unprepared to offer guidance to anyone that didn't fit the standard post degree – go to law school, go to med school, go to business school, go to work for a big corporation path. There was a small number of people from my graduating class that were making the same move towards the design professions, and the staff there were completely flummoxed about it – and completely unmotivated to offer any significant guidance. If i hadn't been fortunate enough to work with a Jesuit at the university who'd been a big time corporate architect in his previous life, my transition to my passion would have been a lot harder.

For my second degree i chose a decent school in an area in which i'd always wanted to live. In the ensuing years, i've encountered many architects trained in more prestigious schools, but i never felt like i was at a disadvantage b/c my second degree wasn't from a famous place. Furthermore, i didn't leave my masters program believing that i was my school's great gift to the design world – unlike many of my peers who made a point of name dropping their degree program when they found themselves at any sort of disadvantage. (i.e. I went to the GSD so it doesn't matter that i don't understand how to read architectural drawings.)

Anyway, good for you for challenging the whole 'career' center thing and the idea that a liberal arts degree from a fancy school in and of itself is the bringer of wealth power and good sex.

Hello Penelope,

I credit this blog for providing me with and real world advice on the realities of work, life, and finding a career than any other book or mentor I have encountered until now. I now refer all of my fellow Gen Y friends to this blog, for any issue they face. From their job search, to being a woman in the workplace, to dealing with office politics. For me this blog replaces the college career centre. I believe we should get advice from individuals who offer us a vision, inspire creativity and questioning. You are definitely one of them

I recently graduated from a Canadian University. The Canadian context is a bit different (we don’t have to worry about not having health care upon graduation or really enormous debt). I used my career centre for its resources online and in the library. I never talk to the staff.

Reasons I don’t go to my college careers centre :

1. It’s depressing how they envision you will find a job. Things like: “It could take 6 months to find a job” or you should spend you days sending 30 resumes to low level admin work. Forget about your dreams just get ANY job. My favourite: You took what? And What do you plan on doing with that?

2. Apart from increasing your risk for depression (on top of being in a high risk group) my career centre totally miss the point. There is no interaction. The staff are awkward. Careers centre should be transformed into alumni social centres and host parties once a week for students recent grads along with older professionals to practice networking, which is still the fastest and most proven way to get a job.

3. At the career centre, I met mostly uncreative quasi-professionals a few years older than me, starting a career in HR. They still think in terms of well defined fields government/education/law/business where you really need to think more in terms of your skills and passions (organizing, teaching, writing, planning, creating, marketing- interacting).

4. Personally, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. It is difficult to get advice on what to do, when you don’t know what you want to do because most of us are not self starters. So I went out an talked to my older sister’s friends who are lawyers, social workers, marketing managers, consultants. I ask them what they did to get where they are and more importantly are they happy with what they do? Only lesson I learned is do this sooner. I got my younger sister to do that and also seek internships from her first year in college.

5. To credit the career centre, it is the only place in the entire university which presents you with the challenges of the reality of finding a job. Not that it’s there to help you with that really. Its more about pouring cold water over your face. The most important thing for a college student is to get out of the college bubble from their first year and try different settings where they might work or volunteer in a multigenerational environment (so not retail and food service). If I did that I would have had a job now. Instead I run a few student clubs, worked in the university and stayed around nervous college students who are frantic to apply to anything or stay for another year, just to avoid a spell of unemployment after graduating.

6. So I graduated without a job, it wasn’t because of my choice of university and its careers centre. It was because I didn’t take the initiative or had enough confidence to pursue experiences outside of the university walls. In the first two years, classes were too large. I imagine that’s what public universities are like in the states. In my final year I was taking courses of a small interdisciplinary program with a class of ten. That did more to inspire and instil confidence than all the other years I spent learning there. If I had the choice to go to a small liberal arts college I would jump at the opportunity. The role of education is to inspire you to formulate your own vision and instil a sense of confidence so you can act on this vision. Instead of stats on job rates, I would like universities to provide information on graduate rates of happiness.

As a career professional who has worked successfully in human resources/recruiting, headhunting and career counseling for over 25 years, I can tell you that they are all different occupations. While there is some overlap the mindset and approach are quite different.

Headhunters are focused on "placement" (typically for a fee) and they do the "fishing" for the client utilizing their network while career counselors teach people the skills to "fish" for themselves! Career counselors focus on teaching students/clients skills such prepare a competitive resume, interview well and employ job search strategies. There is quite a different in terms of professional credentials as well. If you were to explore the occupations in depth you would see the difference.
Attached is a link to the Occupational Outlook Handbook form the Bureau of Labor which profiles occupations:
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos021.htm.

In addition, Career Counselors help students/clients with self assessment exercises to further explore their own values, interests, personality and skills to identify an occupation that is congruent with the world of work.

University career centers are no longer "Career Planning & Placement Centers" like they were 30 years ago. The title of the center explains that the approach is typically more developmental and the focus is on "teaching" people how to fish so they learn the approach and can continue to do it throughout their life…a valuable skill to learn!

Thank you!

Christine Harriger, M.Ed., M.C.D.P.
Master Career Development Professional
James Madison University
http://www.careercollaboration.net

The most important point Penelope is making is the Return on Investment.

To pay so much–even a good state school runs about 20K a year these days–often ncecessitates going hugely into debt straight out of school, with no guarantee of a job that will compensate amply enough so that repayment doesn't entail some level of poverty.

Maybe that's overstated. Point Pen is making and I've always made: Learn while you earn. Show up and do good work ANYWHERE and the chances the employer will help pay for your education WHILE YOU'RE STILL EARNING, NOT JUST PAYING OUT are very good.

And if you don't like that job, find another. Just do good work wherever you go, and you'll be ok.

But earn while you learn. Just doesn't make sense to overpay for education. Local and community colleges will offfer ample rewards for attending. And plenty of local business opportunities, contacts, networking.

And if you win the lottery the day you graduate from pricey NameBrand U, and discover it wasn't really worth all that, well, you can just go back and learn what you want to with all those winnings.

Win-Win.

I completely agree with you. I've graduated from a state university in three years, thus saving about $15-17K. I look back, and I'm not quite sure that education was worth the money I spent, even though I saved quite a bit by graduation early (and also working part-time jobs).

Here's the paradox, though. I know I could have done the job I got after college (where I got promoted pretty fast and got an opportunity to do some amazing things) without a university degree, but I also know that this same employer would not have called me in for an interview had I not gotten that education. My resume would be thrown into a trashcan right away… a degree is a requirement so many times, and waiting for the workplace to evolve and to have resources to evaluate every candidate for that amazing skillset acquired without the university education is just not something worth doing. How do you break through? Even though my education was state, and therefore cheap, I still consider that an expensive line item on my resume to pass that initial screening and to get that phone call. But, again, how do you go around that?

Some interesting points about the value of a formal education. I have often felt people go on to do some form of additional training and education without really understanding why or because they were pressured. I really enjoyed the articles by Ben that you referenced too – "Why is College (4 years, $160k) the Default?"

I’d say high school career centers are more the problem.
When I graduated at age 17 in 1998, I had no idea what I wanted to do and subsequently took a year off, moving several thousand miles from my family and working for a year, before deciding that I wanted to go to college. I did not just think I needed to go; I wanted to go, because I had been working wage jobs and figured out that I needed a little more than that.
I still didn’t know what I wanted to do, though, because I went into it as an Animal Science major in the School of Agriculture at the University of Georgia. It was only when I started failing chemistry and stumbled into the career center that a caring counselor gave me a personality test and helped me figure out that I did not want to actually study the animals; I wanted to write about the people that study the animals. By helping me throw out my broken belief that science = success, I got onto a path that I have since been happy with and that is leading me ever closer to what I have always wanted to do: be a writer.
I do not bemoan the route I took to get to these conclusions, because I learned so much in the realm of life experience, but I do fault my high school for not doing a better job at promoting alternative routes for young people who think that a university right after graduation is the only respected way to go. As some readers mentioned earlier on here, what about vocational school? And I have long admired the German system for separating students early on, so that apprenticeships are more common and college prep is not the only high school curriculum, because it shouldn’t be.

Great post. I have a liberal arts education and it was a great investment, but not because of the information I received. What I gained from college is a great experience where I tried new things, met interesting and diverse people, and worked hard.

This can happen almost anywhere if you can get yourself out of bed, have the motivation to gather and digest information without getting a grade for it, and can get up the nerve to try new things, meet new people and ask new questions.

Create your own internships by finding people that are doing what you want to be doing and work as closely with them as they will let you.

RE: Sue on 01/22/2010 at 05:15pm (and others)
I originally posted a comment here yesterday, then came back. You know what I found interesting? Out of all the Career Center pros that posted on here, only two or three bothered to state or link to the college they're associated with. Why does that matter? I'm pretty sure that not all the people looking at this blog have degrees. I'm going back to college while working, and for those who talked about or linked to their college, of course I at least looked up their website and programs listing. Because eventually, I'm going beyond an Associates. While taking classes I'm already planning where I will go next. I'm sure I'm not the only one on the planet doing so. (For the lady at IPFW. You may get a future student next year. For the guy who posted the link to online college grad stats earlier, awesome. I will find that quite useful.)

You want to prove the blogger here wrong, link to your college! You have an opportunity to advertise the institution you work at for free, on a blog seen nationally. You can't buy advertising like that. Hell, for those who mentioned you were going to your school's Twitter or Facebook page after you finished complaining, you could have at least linked to that in your reply. Common sense. Don't just rail at the speaker that they're wrong. Show the audience your evidence.

I think it would be interesting to ask
(1) How many career centers have you worked with
(2) List your specific experience with career centers

This would help in the validity of your thoughts and comments!

While I expected numerous people who work in career centers to opine here, none of the arguments are convincing, and most of them are of the "but mine is good" variety.

Trunk's reasoning still stands. The people who work there are not likely to be the kind of people who have networks to get you anything you could not more easily get yourself with some networking. There are exceptions, and maybe your are the exception, but you are almost certainly not the rule.

My worry is that many in such centers will do far more harm than good. The best thing that a career center can do is transform itself into a center for networking, and getting out of the advice, resume, or "placement" business. Most of the advice such centers offer about the latter is almost always too stale, too conservative, and mostly a waste of time.

If colleges want to get really serious about placement, they should start hiring more adjuncts out of industry who have passions for teaching. Those folks might actually have some good advice to offer.

I have to 100% disagree this this generation of students are such a great bunch of communicators, at least in any kind of intellectual sense. I am an assistant professor at a distance education campus, and many of these students can barely spell their own name. (How did they even graduate from High School without being able to write a complete sentence?) They plagiarize everything since they don't know how to think critically, or write. They are not using social media to read books or discuss great works of literature or anything remotely requiring deep thought. They are Tweeting what they ate for lunch, posting their relationship status on Facebook, texting, sexting, and generally, "skimming the surface of life" (to quote the great Joyce Carol Oates) etc. They are most definitely not sitting there on their computers or SmartPhones figuring out what great works are available full-text online via Google e-books, their public library, or any other service, or posting long deep thoughts on any matters except perhaps their favorite bands.

P makes her point at the end when she says “you need to calculate the return on investment on going to college before you go to college so that you make sure you're going to college for rational reasons.”

This really is the bottom line – liberal arts degrees are not useless. They get you into a network. They teach you how to think, how to have self-discipline, how to socialize within your peer group, how to experience different things that help you understand the world around you. And some people might even learn something useful in class.

But the point is that they may not be worth tens of thousands of dollars to someone who won’t be positioned to pay all that back later.

High school kids get herded into a liberal arts college because it’s the next step and it’s easy to get misled into thinking the degree will easily translate into a high-paying job. They’re told to sign on the dotted line for thousands of dollars in loans without fully understanding what that means. Schools – and parents – don’t do enough to prepare them for the reality of debt and the post-graduation job market.

In the end, a cost-benefit analysis of what you want and what the degree can realistically get you is crucial. But how many 16-year-old high school kids can really do this? Most find it hard enough just to pick a major.

But when you're 17 and a senior and applying to colleges, you don't have the capacity to think about this stuff. You're just usually confused about life. I think people should work for 2-3 years out of high school and then go to college.

Very provocative article– thanks for posting.

As a director of a liberal arts career center, I would take issue with the broad brush with which you paint all career centers. I provide career coaching training for NACE and interact with career center personnel across the country and I can tell you that as a group they are sincere, committed professionals who strive to provide the best services for their students. They are creative, interested in trying new technologies, and student-centered in their thinking. Many are not driven by employer demands– in fact, many career centers don't have recruiting as a primary activity.

That said, there are challenges within the industry:

1. Colleges generally do not staff career centers well. (Many of us live for the day when a career center is as well staffed as the admissions office.) It is not unusual for career centers to have 3,000 (or more) students for every career counselor on staff.

2. There is often a mismatch between student expectations and what a career center can realistically do. Part of this has to do with legal constraints around recruiting. A career center should be one piece of the job-seeker's pie, so to speak. It is one place where you can find assistance in the job search, but it should never be your only landing point. Of course you should use LinkedIn, Twitter and all sorts of internet/social media options as well. And good old-fashioned networking too. A career center cannot get you a job– even if they help, YOU will always be responsible for getting a job because you are the one in the interview room, not the career center. Get the help you can from career services and also use every other trick you can find.

3. Should there be more accountability for career services? Perhaps– I guess it depends on the institution. Most schools do keep track of the number of clients seen, number of employers recruiting, etc. The question is what to do with that information. In most schools the use of the center is optional and not all students are interested in delving into career activities while still in school– and they would resent you if you required them to use the services. Many students wait until the week before graduation to even visit the center. This is no one's fault and not necessarily a problem, except when the student has missed out on valuable connections they might have made.

My advice– use your career center NOW while you're still a student. If they don't provide what you need, have an honest conversation with the director. It may be that something has been overlooked. There may be budget or staff limitations which the director can explain– and maybe there's a way around those limitations. You won't know until you ask. If you don't feel your concerns were heard go to the Dean. My experience has been that when students have a complaint, the complaint is usually legitimate. Whether it can be solved is a matter of budget, staff, college culture, etc., but a good career center will respond to students' needs to the best of its ability. Partnering with students (and student organizations) can be a great way for a career center to remain relevant.

As to the whole issue of what to do with a liberal arts education– you might want to go to the library and take a look at my book, "You Majored in What? Mapping Your Path from Chaos to Career" which deals specifically with how you translate that valuable liberal arts education into the workplace.

Hi Penelope!
This was a great post, but I wanted to take a little time to think about it before responding. I was a little disheartened when I read it because not only am I a fourth year liberal arts student, I also write a blog for our Career Services Centre. My education has at times frustrated me because I have wondered what I will ever 'do' with it. Now however I look at the last four years as an experience, like many have said in the comments, in growing up and learning to communicate with people. The same could be done with experience and vocational training, but I think the liberal arts has opened my eyes to an entire world that otherwise never existed in my suburban bubble. This was essential to me learning about what I am passionate about and what I what out of life. I am not going to define myself by my degree or make it the sole focus in my job search, because I have also gone to great lengths to gain real experiences outside the lecture hall. I do think this is essential for all university students because learning in a classroom can only get you so far. Things like exchanges, internships, co-ops, and even working while in school can all add to a more well rounded experience.
I will say this about the Career Services Centre at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario: I only started attending seminars and workshops this year so I would have something to write about for Water Cooler Gossip. Before that I had absolutely no interest. As I have written in my blog, I think the best thing about the centre and what they offer is they allow students the time to sit down, reflect, analyze, and consider all their options. Many students (myself included) do not make the time to do this. I have found Career Services beneficial because it opened the doors to a huge wealth of information (on the internet, in books, etc.) that I would have otherwise never have known. With all things in life, I take the advice with a grain of salt and assess what will work for me and what won't. This is the advice I give on the blog, because not everyone will take away the same things from a meeting with a career counselor.

Ps. Your blog was introduced to me by someone in Career Services, so they must be doing something right!

One of the most frustrating things to me as a recruiter is college grads who act they deserve the job because they just finished grad school. Brand are not hiring their entry level leaders based on a degree but on relevant experience. I can't agree more with your insight from this post. Getting ready for the real world is a thoughtful mix of education and experience. Getting a BA is the new high school diploma.

Penelope,

Today is the first time I've encountered your blog and it very much concerned me. I see that the mission of your company is to help young people with their careers, yet you are telling them to avoid some of the people who can really be of service to them.

Are there some career centers out there that fit your description? Probably, however, there are many of us that do a really good job, and when students read posts like this one they may not even connect with the career center believing that all of them are bad because you say so.

Here at Harding University, a small private university, we encourage individualized resumes, teach the students to network and have a structured job search, teach interview skills, etc., and this is without extra cost to the students and alumni. My collegues at other universities do the same.

You did make some valid points in your post, but please note that most career centers that do a good job with/for their students, and even those that are underfunded and understaffed have some good things to offer.

Regards,

Deb

I have two good friends who constantly argue about the importance of a Masters of Business and Administration (MBA).They both recognize and agree that both experience and education are necessary but what does the job market value more?

Whether or not you feel like your degree is representative of your knowledge or experiences, your degree is one of the best ways to measure you against your competition because our society highly regards education though I completely agree with you that considering return on investment done – it does need a second thought.

——-
Andy

I'd love to hear what people think about the future of online degrees. I know that the University of Phoenix isn't a competitive option, but won't most "real" schools start offering more online programs in the future? And when they do, how will those degrees be viewed by potential employers?

I ask because am 35 and employed full-time. I make more money than a lot of people I know who did get liberal arts degrees- nevertheless, recruiters seem to require that you have that piece of paper for almost any job, no matter how menial. A BA is the new high school diploma.

I've attended both community colleges and an expensive, private university, but never finished the degree. While other people seem to find lectures and class discussions fascinating, I find being in the classroom makes me feel like a caged animal. It's not so much that they encourage you to learn the material and exercise critical thinking skills as that they expect you to memorize their interpretation of the facts. The way to get good grades is to figure out what each professor wants and deliver only that.

As for the "priceless college experience," after I dropped out, I bought a one-way ticket to Europe and hitch-hiked around the continent before returning to San Francisco to live communally with a group of anarchists. College isn't the only way to discover yourself.

I recently read an article on the Business Week about the free online tuition at the University of People (http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/content/jan2010/bs20100121_194827.htm). "Real" schools are already getting involved into this relatively unpopular form of higher education, such as Yale, even though it's just as a research partnership at this point.

I think another issue to consider is career aspirations as a researcher/professor. If that's your goal, then in my opinion ROI on education is higher.

What an interesting perspective Penelope!

I agree with a lot of what you have stated, but I really think that you are painting career centers with a very broad stroke. To actually state that "most career centers are useless" or that "career centers are terrible", completely devalues the work that we do!

Now, I freely admit that I can't speak for all college/university centers, especially since I work for a Canadian University, but I can tell you that my staff and I work extremely hard to work WITH students. Yes, I admit that I do have a full time job developer whose job it is to recruit companies for our students, but I have double the staff working with students. For us, its all about students. We not only have a full class on preparation for the work world, where we explore career options, as well as run sessions on business etiquette, how to prepare for meetings [including social media settings], we teach how to prepare innovative presentations and how to improve communication skills, all IN ADDITION to the regular resume and cover letter modules. The resume modules are diverse, and we highlight several styles of resumes – although we do state our preference and why, the student selects how they will set up their resume, and once they do, we help them improve it. We certainly do not have a "cookie cutter" approach to resumes, but what is so terrible about suggesting a student make some modifications to meet employer needs? After all, we deal with the same companies year after year and they tell us what they would like to see…are you suggesting that I let a student blindly submit a resume that I know will not get them noticed because it’s not in the preferable format for the employer? Or it’s not highlighting the skills that the employer has asked for?

My career centre, which works exclusively with Science students, spends ample time and money to bring back guest speakers to talk about non traditional and traditional career paths with the degrees available in our Faculty.

You are correct about stating that we are not at the forefront of Administration's priority list, but we don't make that list for students either. We run events, we run breakfasts, we run contests, we're on Facebook, etc., we partner with student clubs, we even hired clowns and a popcorn cart to encourage students to see us…and students ignore our service. The ones who come, definitely keep us busy, but they are a small percentage of our overall population. I would have really preferred, Penelope, if you had stated in your blog that students should use EVERY avenue available to them, including career centers…and I'd be ok if you had put a disclaimer that some career centers are better than others, but instead, you've made our value and our job even tougher than before.

Have a big high school student readership, do we, Penelope? I think most people who read your blog aren't in the how-much-should-I-trust-my-guidance counselor stage of life. Reading this certainly made me feel like shit — I'm three semesters from graduation at my own personal chi-chi LAC — but not much I can do about it now, is there?

And that's why being a healthcare professional is the perfect way to go! Nurses, pharmacists, physical therapists, physician assistants, etc are all in high demand. The best part? We're still in school and recruiters are quick to cut contracts with us. No matter what happens, healthcare services are a necessity; deconstructionist discourses are not.

The poor quality of college career centers and the value of liberal education are two entirely separate issues, the former being a rather specific and even technical issue while the latter being an extremely complex issue that goes beyond the scope of this blog.

I happen to be a serious believer of liberal education for its creative and versatile nature that cannot be replaced easily by any other means. Having said this, I agree that college education has become yesterday's high school and it is very expensive. When even state universities are forced to mainly depend on private sources(and tuitions), the idea of equal opportunities is being challenged seriously. Then, shouldn't we discuss the structure of the education system in this country that put the cost so high, to the degree of being prohibitive? Shouldn't we discuss how we help create a system where today's "high school" is affordable to more people? It's quite surprising that no one brings this up. (Due to the lack of good liberal education, I suspect:-)

To me, the value is liberal education is indubitable and what concerns me is that people seems take the current system for granted, while they talk about a wonderful new world being opened up by new technology. Again, due to lack of liberal education that teaches you historical and global perspectives.

I don’t think International Relations is a bad major, it’s just the expectation that your degree is a magic carpet that would whisk you off to the job of your dreams. (Which clearly you don’t have, but I think that’s the misperception Penelope is railing against.)I think it’s great day you have some proficiency in Mandarin Chinese and some work experience in China.

Consider going into your dreaded career services office airing your concerns and, perhaps figuring out a way to get more experience.

Do not, do not, do not -apply to law school just because you don’t know what else to do with yourself. You can always figure out a way to pick up new skills. Volunteer, take a job somewhere, teach abroad, join Americorps, do some work on spec for somebody- do something that could be helpful and not get to into debt like grad school and not confine you to a specific field where you may or may not be able to find the opportunities you want. Grad school in itself isn’t a bad thing, but just going there so you seem productive and you think, this time, this education is going to be the one that does it, could backfire.

Get experience. Network, online and off. Figure out what kind of work you want to do, even if it’s just a list of companies that seem interesting.

As a career counselor at a university, I think most students have unrealistic expectations about the services provided at a career services office. Career services offices are another piece of an education. We teach students the key skills they need to manage their job search and their careers, so they don't have to pay resume writers and headhunters for the rest of their lives. So I'd like to address the points in this article.

1. Career centers cater to companies, not candidates.
In my office, students and the university administration expect us to provide opportunities for students to make contact with employers. If we didn't, the students would be very angry about the fact that we're not doing this. That being said, my office (and many others) do not have corporate sponsors and are trying to get the employers to the school for the benefit of the students. Furthermore, no one in my office would suggest a student write the exact same resume as every other student…that would just be boring and would not make a job candidate stand out. We routinely advise students NOT to use templates that make them look just like everyone else.

2. Career centers don't understand social media.
Actually, all of the counselors in our office advise students to utlize both online sources of networking like LinkedIn, etc. to build their network. It's also a discussion that I have with most of my colleagues at my university and others in my area that teaching students how to network in a variety of ways is our top priority.

3. Career center staff is self-selecting for underperformance.
My career services office is charged with doing graduate follow-up surveys and we are mainly interested in tracking employment, not which graduate institution our students attend (although we take that information as well). Again, most other schools I know want employment information, as that is what our whole goal is. We want our students to be gainfully employed. I do agree that administrations of universities often do not allocate the budget necessary to help with this endeavor. My office has 3 career counselors for 22,000 students and 140,000 alumni. We would love if, instead of getting angry about the wait time to get into our office, students/alumni would contact administration about how they could give more money/staff to career services. Most career services offices deal with this same lack of resources/support from the institution.

I know that this was quite a rant, but I do want people to understand that most people who work in this capacity truly care about the students and really do want them to succeed. We do the best we can to reach out to students early and get their attention…we want them to come to us as freshmen so that we help them start to gain that real-world experience that does get them a job. By the way, the number one quality employers look for in a candidate: related work experience. This is something I tell ALL of my students.

Penelope,

I am interested in what you have to say in light of this quote from your archives

"In college you need to learn how to think broadly and critically. How you think is much more important than if you know how to map a brand strategy. You have your whole life to study business; college is your time for Shakespeare, Schopenhauer, and science experiments. In this new era of downtrodden, low-key CEOs, one CEO stands out for her star power: Carly Fiorina. And guess what her major was? English."

http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2003/02/24/no-more-triple-majors-please-college-kids-should-cut-course-loads/

How, or better yet, why have your opinions changed so drastically? Thank you for your time.

Penelope, as I've mentioned before–this post was very thought-provoking. As I spent the better part of ten years working inside campus career services offices, I wanted to provide more information on why most colleges use a standard format–and why students and alums should deviate from this format when not applying for jobs posted through on-campus recruiting.

http://tinyurl.com/standard-resume-dilemma

Look forward to continuing the conversation!
Chandlee

Is liberal arts just a luxury for the well-heeled? My personal advice is to focus on acquiring a skill, and working hard at it. There is after all no short-cut to greatness and success.

First, I agree with the career center comments. I am interested in what you have to say in light of this quote from your archives.