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I don't usually post clips of myself when I go on TV. But I'm posting this one, where I talk about trying to get an abortion in Wisconsin and end up with a miscarriage at work instead. It was a difficult interview, which is why I like it. And, remarkably, I have good hair without trying, which is another reason I like watching the clip.
For those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about. Here's my twitter that caused uproar. And here's my post about it. To give you an idea of the recent coverage, here's the link that is, right now, on the front page of AOL, and here's a link to an article by Lara Salahi at ABC News — I really like that one.
If you are new to my blog, and you've gotten this far, maybe you'll like staying here for a while. Here's a good page to begin on: About this blog.
I know I said that that this week is Asperger's at work week on my blog. Maybe me talking about my miscarriage to newscasters is part of this series. I'm not sure. But I've been learning a lot about women from the comments about the miscarriage twitter — on my blog and on other sites. So I'm sure that other people are learning a lot about the lives of women — at work and at home. And that has to be good.
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yaaaaay! to you. so happy you did this.
Posted by susie Bright on October 1, 2009 at 9:31 am | permalink |
This woman is so far beyond narcisistic, it is unbelievable. So unbelievable that one probably shouldn't believe it — any of it. She is a PR whore, who teaches young PR whores how to be better PR whores. It's her life's work.. End of story. No miscarriege. No Asperger's. No value as a human being. Just money, and what ever it takes to make more. Seriously, end of story. If you have been duped into thinking that this woman has anything to offer except lies and heartless self-promotion (seriously people this is her job, no joke — this is what these brainless turds sit around and comtemplate all day while finding angel investers for their latest start-up), if you really believe that a human being could be so callous and uncaring to just let as many people as possible know about something so painful and personal (who cares how common miscarrieges are? really what kind of sick argument is that?), if you really can not see through this PR farce, then you deserve to be duped. And you will buy what ever screwed up unhealthy product that she pushes from now until the whole thing comes crumbling down. Poor things …
Posted by lefty on October 1, 2009 at 6:36 pm | permalink |
Lefty, you are spot on.
"Your Tweet appeared to have nothing to do with telling the "truth" and everything to do with shameless self-promotion. If your thoughts and ideas are truly intelligent and well spoken, you shouldn't need to resort to such a blatent publicity stunt to garner attention and new readers for your blog.
Where is your sense of privacy and dignity? Isn't anything sacred anymore? What happened to people having friends and family, doctors and professionals to offer emotional, moral and personal support and validation? Apparently being honest with people who are close to you, and with yourself, isn't enough.
Just because you can say it doesn't mean you should. Your comment begs for attention, a reaction, ANY reaction, as desperately as Britney Spear's crotch flashing, Paris Hilton's one night hook-ups and Lindsey Lohan's tragic breakdowns. It's not reality, it's desperate, full-frontal exhibitionism. And what a poor disservice it does to real women experiencing real problems and genuine emotions. Everything you wrote smacks of inauthenticity and mocks the complex, conflicting and often overwhelming feelings that pregnancy and loss can evoke.
What a damn waste of words."
Posted by Miriam on October 1, 2009 at 8:03 pm | permalink |
What an awful thing to happen to what's left of any shred of humanity we Americans might have. What a clear consequence of people who have been brought up that there are no consequences. It's just another tragic example of the total lack of personal responsibility that has taken our once great country and mired it in mediocrity. It just shows that anyone can put a CEO title in front of their name in the dot.com world. Let's watch the bar be lowered from here on out.
Posted by Mark, the parent on October 8, 2009 at 1:11 pm | permalink |
I'm from a very well developed, western country where, nontheless, abortion is illegal and, due to our catholic background and traditions, intimate women's issues are not discussed as openly as other issues. Thousands of young women travel secretly (though it's very much an 'open secret') to a neighbouring country to have abortions every year, and suffer the humiliation and fear of being 'found out'. I applaud Penelope's attempt to bring female experience which, in this case, also includes a thwarting of basic constitutional rights, into the public arena. You may not agree to abortion (I hope personally that it's never a decision I'm faced with) or to discussing miscarriage so openly and casually, but surely you agree to all women being allowed to exercise their democratic and constitutional rights to speak freely about and to share openly an experience of being a woman.
Posted by Siobhan on October 2, 2009 at 10:08 am | permalink |
Unfortunately Siobhan, you have completely missed the point of the comments that you have responded to. You might have wanted to write these important thoughts to some right wing nut bag who still thinks that woman belong oppressed. That has nothing to do with what I said. Again, (and this is so important) this woman is a total fraud. She has changed her name several times in her "career". Please do not consider anything she has to say about public and professional life as more than a sad, emotionally depraved, opportunist, who earns more money every time you give her more attention. I've seen her type at all the young and upward drinking holes in Sillicon Alley (NYC neighborhood where the whole internet start-up craze merged with the Madison Avenue ad world in a really disgusting way) back in the 90's. People like her are completely unconcerned with issues of social reformation. They are concerned with self-advancement and sel-preservation. This is not the opinion of someone who dis-likes her views on an oppressive society. This is the opinion of someone who's seen her type in action — "doing business". It's a vile world that she has crawled from. She has no intention of making the world a better place for the modern woman. Her intention is to GET RICH.
Posted by lefty on October 2, 2009 at 1:39 pm | permalink |
Why are you bothering to read it then?
Posted by pj on October 2, 2009 at 3:09 pm | permalink |
I caught wind of this grotesque "modern woman" through the twenty four hour news cycle. But since I've been back a few times to follow up, I can see what you're saying. Why bother right? Well believe me, now that I know what she is all about and how my coming back only makes her more wealthy and somehow validates her horrific business practices, I will not be back. But again, her intention is not to take on the cause of the modern professional woman. Abortion, miscarriege, advancing the cause for women everywhere in some internet mogel, riottgirl kind of way — none of this should even be on the table. It's all secondary to her ultimate goal — I hope there are still a few normal, decent people left who can see through this non-sense and make sure that she doesn't
Posted by lefty on October 2, 2009 at 10:06 pm | permalink |
Susie Bright: They call you "Bright" for a reason. Thank you for seeing through this clown.
Posted by John on October 2, 2009 at 3:31 pm | permalink |
Hey, Penelope, some future money-making suggestions for your blog:
Have another abortion. This time set up a camera and tape it. Call it "The Abortion Cam." Charge the suckers on this site to watch. They'll pay.
Put a web cam in your bedroom and keep it on 24/7. Again, charge people for access.
Have a contest for people to see the largest object you can stuff up your —-. The person who guesses the largest object wins a prize.
Animals, animals! You're in farm country. Get creative with animals.
Fly to New York and run naked through Manhattan.
Get a job on Kink.com. They're always looking for models.
Posted by John on October 2, 2009 at 3:41 pm | permalink |
I haven't seen anyone analyze the time line of events in this blog over the past 10 days, so here goes:
Sept. 21 — miscarriage twitter post
Sept. 23 — replaced as CEO, given newly created position with no management responsibility
Sept. 24 — blog entry about twitter post generates >450 comments.
Sept. 25, 28 — generic posts
Sept. 29 — gives unusual interview on CNN
Sept. 29, 30 — blogs about having Aspergers, describes many personality deficits
Oct.1 — posts CNN interview on blog
I think this is a career flame out. This blog and its author might even thrive from this publicity (although I doubt it), but there ain't no more "careerist" around here.
Posted by A. Realist on October 3, 2009 at 1:48 am | permalink |
GREAT SUSIE~! I totally agree…any broad who is TOO DUMB to use a reliable method of birth control before she sleeps around is NOT SMART ENOUGH to teach any person one valuable thing about career choices! SHE proves that so many women can literally sleep with enough people to get their foot in the door…I have read her writing and its boring and regurgitated from about 20 other similar writings! THIS pig should be taken off of her 15 minutes already!
Posted by terri on October 3, 2009 at 9:45 am | permalink |
Penelope, you do realize that you're coming across as a complete fuckwad, right? You're talking about a human life. My wife and I also endured a miscarriage and it was horrible. I don't disrespect your right to choose; I take offense at your nonchalance. Not everything needs to be tweeted. And your tweet on your miscarriage seems nothing more than a misguided attempt at self-promotion. It is truly wretched.
Posted by Arin on November 20, 2009 at 2:33 am | permalink |
I support your right to an abortion and to twitter about it. I also think it is really cool that the interview ended up being a public service announcement! I am so sick of people in this country being so judgmental about women's reproductive rights!
Posted by Starrie on October 1, 2009 at 9:35 am | permalink |
Ditto! Those that think there was something "wrong" with her twitter, and CNN interview, actually have something wrong with themselves.
Good show Penelope!
Posted by John McCarthy on October 11, 2009 at 7:51 am | permalink |
LOL. I don't think Penelope qualifies as a "young lady" anymore.
Posted by John on October 1, 2009 at 9:40 am | permalink |
Wow, I admire how open and sincere you are.
While I don't approve of abortion under any circumstances, I'm really glad that you're breaking the taboo of miscarriages.
Posted by Anna on October 1, 2009 at 9:41 am | permalink |
"Young lady"? How insulting!! There certainly was nothing 'fair and balanced' about his interviewing style, was there? Obviously Rick Sanchez couldn't be bothered to do any homework on you before you came on to his show, otherwise he would have known exactly why you are so outspoken, honest and open about your life.
I really wish CNN had been enlightened and evolved enough to have a woman interview you rather than this past-his-prime frat boy. Congratulations on sticking to your point (even thanking him for getting out the public service message-haha!) and keeping your cool.
In the end, he looked like a buffoon. Great interview!
Posted by ResumeWriter on October 1, 2009 at 9:45 am | permalink |
I agree with you 100%, ResumeWriter!
Posted by jenn farr on October 4, 2009 at 9:04 am | permalink |
Hopefully your candor will spark some change in this country.
Posted by shannon on October 1, 2009 at 9:50 am | permalink |
WooHoo! great job, Penelope. I agree, your hair looks great! Thanks for sharing the clip.
Posted by James Fowlkes on October 1, 2009 at 9:52 am | permalink |
Ha, you are AWESOME! And I can't believe you had to do a "miscarriage for dummies" explanation on freaking CNN (!), how it's just like a period when it's early on. I just can't believe that. Great interview.
Posted by Ulyana on October 1, 2009 at 9:55 am | permalink |
"Now tell me, Penelope, because I didn't have time to research this before we were on air, but what exactly is a miscarriage?"
His pressing journalistic skills seemed to backfire on him at every turn. Well done, P.
Posted by Smith+Fritzy on October 1, 2009 at 12:20 pm | permalink |
"Maybe me talking about my miscarriage to newscasters is part of this series"
I think that is a definite. I think people with a normal range of emotions realize it's not the best to talk about these things outside of your trusted circle. It really is in your best interest to not discuss these things with people you don't trust. But then again, you're getting the attention, and maybe that's what you wanted.
Whatever the case, I'm sorry you had an unplanned pregnancy.
Posted by Kate on October 1, 2009 at 10:00 am | permalink |
What do you mean by "not the best"? It seems like one of Penelope's goals is to expand the range of subjects that is acceptable to discuss frankly in public. If that's correct, then it follows that talking about "these things" outside of a trusted circle is in her best interest. In any case, it's really for her to decide what's in her own best interest.
On a side note, what exactly is gained by keeping talk about miscarriages, abortions, and other (women's) health/body issues private? What are the benefits beyond avoiding judgment and criticism? In my opinion the costs outweigh the benefits.
Posted by C on October 1, 2009 at 4:13 pm | permalink |
> It seems like one of Penelope's goals is to expand the
> range of subjects that is acceptable to discuss
> frankly in public.
Yep, that sure does help one build one's career skills, doesn't it?
Of course, P wouldn't know anything about careers since she's never had one.
Posted by John on October 2, 2009 at 3:43 pm | permalink |
Wow, so they chose a Catholic male to interrogate you. Kudos on keeping your cool. I think the interview would have gone very differently had your interviewer been female.
Posted by Susan Johnston on October 1, 2009 at 10:00 am | permalink |
The guy really behaved like a jerk, hardly concealing his hatred towards you behind his grin. I wonder how you managed to stay calm and not fall prey to his provocations.
Posted by hooey on October 1, 2009 at 10:03 am | permalink |
Rick Sanchez is a mindless, arrogant talking head that detracts from the national discussion.
You were graceful, thoughtful and that might be the first time I've ever seen a clip from CNN and thought "well, that's different."
Oh, plus you and your hair looked gorgeous. ;)
Bravo, P.
Posted by Mike on October 1, 2009 at 10:18 am | permalink |
Mike said:
> You're incredible.
That's quite correct, in the literal definition of the world incredible and not the colloquial usage. Penelope is in fact "incredible."
Posted by John on October 2, 2009 at 3:46 pm | permalink |
You're incredible. I admit it's shocking because the topics are ones rarely spoken of so openly, but you're so right.
Sidenote, I notice a hint of a Wisconsin accent.
Posted by Catie on October 1, 2009 at 10:22 am | permalink |
Rock on! I think you did an awesome job on CNN–shared some really valuable information and brought up some really great points.
Posted by Maggie McGary on October 1, 2009 at 10:22 am | permalink |
You and Sanchez make some really bad arguments here:
-Women already have the right to abortion, whether or not you like that. Therefore, we should protect that right. So just because people are allowed to do something now, we never prevent them from doing it? Then how can we justify new laws?
- Most people are more complicated than one single answer. This is elitist comment. Just because a person's views lie squarely on one side of the fence, doesn't make them a simpleton.
- As soon as women are pregnant their hormones start taking over Everyone is ruled by hormones. All your values, hopes and fears can traced back to chemicals in your brain.
I just think it's a really complicated question. You proceeded to answer the question as if Sanchez had asked "Do you think abortion is wrong" or "Should abortion be illegal". But all he asked you was whether you felt guilty about the abortion. Will you answer that question?
And Sanchez makes a bad argument too:
- The hormones you feel are God's way of telling you to keep the baby. I guess the "hormones" realeased when I smoke weed are God's way of telling me to smoke more.
Posted by John on October 1, 2009 at 10:25 am | permalink |
"Most people are more complicated than one single answer. This is elitist comment. Just because a person's views lie squarely on one side of the fence, doesn't make them a simpleton."
No. This is not an elitist comment at all. All that was said was "most people are more complicated than one simple answer", meaning not all situations are black and white. It has nothing to do with who is or is not a simpleton, but clearly you are.
Posted by Anonymous on October 1, 2009 at 3:05 pm | permalink |
>>-'Women already have the right to abortion, whether or not you like that. Therefore, we should protect that right.' So just because people are allowed to do something now, we never prevent them from doing it? Then how can we justify new laws?
Enacting new laws through the process of democracy is one thing. Insurance companies acting as quasi legislators by creating additional hoops is another thing. I don't agree with that.
Terrorising the staff and patients at abortion clinics should NOT be legal. Animal rights protesters who harassed staff at a research facility (Huntington Life Sciences) in the UK were arrested as terrorists. Some of the tactics employed by abortion protesters in the US are equally bad. I'm not saying that waving a placard is terrorism but throwing blood at people, shouting abuse, making death threats, and shooting abortion doctors certainly is.
If you disagree with abortion then you should lobby for legislative change and that's ALL you should do.
In my opinion abortion should be conducted in every hospital, not in specialised clinics.
Posted by Caitlin on October 1, 2009 at 4:50 pm | permalink |
how is it you think that most hospitals don't "conduct" abortions? most do, if willing doctors (usually ob-gyns) are associated with them. the possible exceptions are those states where the blood-flinging is acceptable.
specialised clinics are usually provided in areas where 1) there is a significant population that is not or under-insured, and 2) where the culture doesn't necessarily find doctors willing to provide the procedure in hospital settings.
Posted by thatgirlinnewyork on October 10, 2009 at 3:25 am | permalink |
@thatgirlinnewyork I don't know what happens in every part of the country, but I read a long, in-depth feature article about the recent murder of the abortion doctor. His clinic was basically the only place providing abortions in his whole state, which is part of the reason why he was such a target. I'm sure there are hospitals in his state. If there aren't, that's a bigger problem.
Posted by Caitlin on October 11, 2009 at 5:29 pm | permalink |
You looked damn hot in this one, Penelope. :)
Posted by John Feier on October 1, 2009 at 10:28 am | permalink |
We live in a culture of embarrassment and shame. I'm not sure how it benefits us (possibly the continuation of a male dominated society?), but I know it causes many professional and personal issues that could probably be avoided through communication.
I'd like to see this story become a tipping point for a more honest and forthcoming work (and personal) environment. I'll certainly look back on this event the next time I need to tell someone the truth even if I find it very difficult.
Posted by Jason Pelker on October 1, 2009 at 10:34 am | permalink |
A miscarriage rate of 75% of women is for those aged 45 years or more.
According to the study cited by Wikipedia, "Overall, 13.5% of the pregnancies intended to be carried to term ended with fetal loss. At age 42 years, more than half of such pregnancies resulted in fetal loss. The risk of a spontaneous abortion was 8.9% in women aged 20-24 years and 74.7% in those aged 45 years or more."
You can check it here:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/320/7251/1708
Posted by Pablo Martínez-Almeida on October 1, 2009 at 10:38 am | permalink |
What she says is 75% of women experience a miscarriage, not that 75% of pregnancies result in miscarriage.
Posted by JB on October 1, 2009 at 11:44 am | permalink |
If the CNN interviewer had been doing his job, he would have already known the statistics on miscarriages prior to the interview.
Posted by Caitlin on October 1, 2009 at 4:51 pm | permalink |
that was brilliant! well done! and actually while the patronising 'young lady' from a CNN interviewer is unbelievable, he was quite open about his ignorance in the end and seemed willing to learn from you. mostly i think your ability to deal with his questions and talk about thigns that really matter to us all was truly admirable.
Posted by fd on October 1, 2009 at 10:41 am | permalink |
I wish the media would displace more ranting editorials with civilised discussions like this one. It is rare to see two people of opposing viewpoints speaking candidly about their views without resorting to name calling and emotionally charged language.
Posted by Jen on October 1, 2009 at 10:45 am | permalink |
I find it interesting that people are upset and offended by this when they weren't upset and offended that you were subject to sexual abuse as a child and you discussed it on this blog. To me these are both intensely personal topics that influence people's careers and work life, and I think you are brave to discuss them.
BTW, your hair does look great. :-)
Posted by Laura on October 1, 2009 at 10:52 am | permalink |
I think your transparency is a brave position. I have to think that you're shining a light into areas that many share but go mostly unexposed. I think we all have aspbergers to some degree in that everyone falls into a continuum of emotional intelligence that is not the same as whoever we are interacting with, so the meta-cognitive ability to step back and humbly review our behavior is a valuable habit.
Posted by Bob on October 1, 2009 at 10:54 am | permalink |
Picasso suffered from visual migraines which caused him to see funny broken images. He considered this a gift (I got that gift too yey).
I think that your Aspergers in a way is a gift too – it makes you bring up to the table issues that we the the "neurotypicals" would just accept by following the "societal norms" on top of which PT just tramples like a bull in a china shop. In a good way (sometimes).
When I had my miscarriage, I was glad that I happened to tell everyone at work that I was pregnant – because if I didn't, I wouldn't have found out that I was not alone.
People need to know that miscarriages happen, and that when it happens for the 3rd time yes you might want to just stay at work and keep your mind busy – if it happened early enough that is, and there are no complications. When people judge me for taking it in stride, I take it in stride. Telling me how I should feel about it is very obtuse.
Posted by ioana on October 1, 2009 at 10:56 am | permalink |
First of all, everyone needs to stop accusing Rick Sanchez of being a jerk-he was completely professional in this interview. The purpose of media is to challenge opinions and ideas and that means that people on the news should ask questions that make you uncomfortable; if they aren't, our society has bigger problems. If you can't handle criticism of your views, you should be rethinking your opinions.
Secondly, we should all be REALLY concerned that CNN invited Penelope on a show because she tweeted something that makes some people uncomfortable. People talk to each other about things, and everyone has different comfort levels with different issues. Invariably, someone somewhere is getting offended about something, that is not newsworthy. What would be newsworthy is if Penelope were to make a compelling argument as to why it's important that every person in your workplace knows you're having a miscarriage.
The "female experience" idea makes no sense; every expression of feelings or ideas has context. That is why freedom of speech doesn't include yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater and also why every meeting at work doesn't include a share-your-feelings session. Sometimes, other things, like public safety or efficiency matter more than conveying your emotional experiences. What value would this type of discussion add to the workplace? That is a question penelope should answer to make this discussion more than just an attempt at ruffling feathers.
I am usually a fan of this blog because you use logic to back up your typically unique arguments (to greater or lesser degrees depending on the post…as a medical student, I have to say that your post about paying doctors less was so logically flawed it made my head hurt). I can only assume this entire tweeting about a miscarriage thing is just a publicity stunt and I suppose you are a businessperson first so these types of things are to be expected. I honestly felt like the interview was completely insubstantial and made no effort to thoughtfully address the real issues (like access to abortion)…I'd really like the old Penelope back.
Posted by H on October 1, 2009 at 10:58 am | permalink |
I am puzzled that someone who spends their time studying bodies would read this post and conclude that it was all about "feelings". A miscarriage is not a feeling. Neither is an abortion, last time I checked. Your insistance that these are somehow "emotional" experiences (i.e. not worth talking about?) rather than legitimate health concerns for women comes across as puerile, prudish, and ill-informed.
If you do plan practice medicine, I suggest you get a lot more comfortable talking about the female body.
Posted by Kathryn Rose on October 1, 2009 at 12:44 pm | permalink |
First of all, every single illness has a social and emotional component, don't tell me that an abortion can be discussed in the workplace like yesterday's football game. My point, which you seem to have missed, is that there is a time and a place for every discussion. I am all for more openness about women's issues; if you want people to be more aware of the health aspect of miscarriages, encourage them to talk to a health professional about it. Encourage people to talk to their friends and families about the experience so they can get the emotional support they need. But I have yet to hear a compelling argument as to why this discussion should happen in the workplace with people who are your coworkers and not your friends.
We don't let students interrupt class with their opinions about whatever crosses their minds because they are there to learn and the expression of their opinions at that time is disruptive to the educational process. I'm just waiting to hear why you are encouraging conversations about an emotionally difficult issue with people who have neither the medical expertise nor the social ties to make such a conversation helpful.
And if you'd like to talk about this topic, I suggest you address my arguments instead of giving unsolicited advice and making unfounded conjectures about my ability to be a doctor.
Posted by H on October 1, 2009 at 3:59 pm | permalink |
> I'd really like the old Penelope back.
You idiot, this is the old Penelope. She's just having to push harder with each sensationalistic post. Where she can ultimately go with this without crashing and burning remains to be seen. Janet Cooke could have learned a lot from her, I'll tell you that.
Posted by John on October 2, 2009 at 3:49 pm | permalink |
Why all the commenting? You seem very, very interested in someone you profess to despise.
If it's the car crash thing, I get that. Just wondering.
Posted by Dree on October 2, 2009 at 10:10 pm | permalink |
John, weren't you going to leave? Get the hell off this site and shut up.
Posted by NN on October 3, 2009 at 12:36 pm | permalink |
An amazingly powerful and far reaching media – Twitter – that started this whole discussion about a week and a half ago. Both Rick Sanchez and I agree on at least one thing – the female experience is an interesting topic.
Posted by Mark W. on October 1, 2009 at 11:02 am | permalink |
Wow Penny, with just 140 characters typed while in a meeting you have started an important national debate. Miscarriage, abortion, and the F bomb all in one short sentence!
I love your authenticity, your candor, and how well you handled this really patronizing reporter. He seems to have a good handle on some tired OLD cliches about dirty laundry and young ladies, but no idea what is happening in the lives of women in 2009, whether they are in the professional arena or not. You go!
Posted by Jen Hinderer on October 1, 2009 at 11:06 am | permalink |
Like I said in my email, thanks for doing the interview, Penelope.
I just read comments on the miscarriage post. People need to get over themselves. I've never had a miscarriage, but I you're absolutely correct when you say some women are grateful to have them. Not every pregnant woman wants to have a baby and NOT ONE of these women are obligated to feel bad for getting what they wanted: a terminated pregnancy. Women have the right to express that relief and help break down the public attitude that the only acceptable expression over a miscarriage is grief. The obligation in this discussion comes from people who think they know what you need to feel. Yes, get over yourselves is right.
Posted by Lesly on October 1, 2009 at 11:19 am | permalink |
Penelope, you have a very captivating smile! That is part of you that doesn't come across on your blog, but adds to my already considerable regard for your ideas and personality, as expressed in your writing. Well done. Someone needs to talk about this stuff. If not you or me, then who? If not now, then when? Thank you for being so frank.
Posted by Andrea on October 1, 2009 at 11:22 am | permalink |
Andrea GOT Penelope's point: that we need to bring up, discuss and confront everything. If it happens in the workplace, as the miscarriage did, then we must talk about it in the workplace. We should be looking at our colleagues, as well as at our families and friends, and saying "I can hear anything you have to say". After all, we are at work 8 hours/day, giving our best energies, our longest blocks of time. It is total immersion at work–therefore, you HAVE to talk it out and confront issues, or you'll end up an island. And no man (or woman) is (should be) an island.
Posted by chris keller on October 3, 2009 at 1:28 pm | permalink |
Wow. I am just now seeing all this controversy. I just want to say thank you. Thank you for bringing this to the attention of so many people. It's situations like this, backed by strong people like you, that will continue to advance the true equality of women — in the US, and with luck and time, abroad. Women can't really be in control of their lives and prosperity until they can control their reproduction. Like the late, great Carlin said: anti-abortion = anti-woman. You are doing a great service by bringing the ideas of miscarriage as a normal, natural occurrence, abortion as a right to be protected, and waiting periods as an obstruction of our rights to the fore. And thank you for pointing people towards giving to PP, they need all the help they can get. Kudos.
Posted by Nydia on October 1, 2009 at 11:29 am | permalink |
Good for you, well done, and thank you.
Posted by Jana on October 1, 2009 at 11:30 am | permalink |
I sort of like that it was a man, and not a woman, conducting the interview. I guess it doesn't really matter, but I think part of Penelope's point is that when everyone understands the female experience, we'll all be better off. I like that CNN didn't feel they had to handle this situation with kid-gloves (or girl-gloves, if you will) by giving you a female interrogator who asked easy, sensitive questions.
Penelope, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the interviewer.
Posted by linz on October 1, 2009 at 11:37 am | permalink |
Oh pleeeze get over this CNN, Penelope had a miscarriage, so now she is a celebrity!
CNN makes a big deal out of nothing.
Penelope stand up for yourself and other women, maybe it can change the thinking of others
Good plug for you company site! Kudos to u
Posted by Moneymonk on October 1, 2009 at 11:38 am | permalink |
You are a truly ugly woman– inside and out. Keep your legs closed; too bad you mother did not.
Posted by Doreen on October 1, 2009 at 11:43 am | permalink |
Completely inapropriate comment. Doreen, I wish for you that your ignorance lessens and that you are able to develop compassion at some point in your life.
Posted by Jessica on October 1, 2009 at 12:03 pm | permalink |
My gosh! How rude! Same should be said to you.
This blog and comments are meant to be a forum for a conversation and feedback….not ridiculously childlike insults.
Posted by Anne on October 1, 2009 at 12:04 pm | permalink |
Doreen, I guess your mother never told you that if you don't have something nice to say, you shouldn't say anything at all. This type of comment has no place on any blog, and I hope Penelope deletes it as innapropriate.
Posted by prklypr on October 1, 2009 at 2:15 pm | permalink |
I just feel sorry for you Doreen. Maybe one day you'll actually learn the manners your slut of a mother (since you think all pregnant women are sluts) should have taught you.
Posted by Anonymous on October 1, 2009 at 3:10 pm | permalink |
What's wrong about Doreen saying this? She was just using her freedom of speech just like Penelope did. And if you want to argue that P wasn't saying something mean to another person, think again! She was celebrating the DEATH of her unborn BABY! (don't dehumanize it by calling the baby a fetus) Not to mention, how bad do you think what P said might have hurt a woman that read it who would want nothing more than to be able to get pregnant and have a child of her own? Or a person who had a miscarriage who wanted nothing more than to carry the baby full term? I'm pretty sure when the First ammendment was written this wasn't what they had in mind or else they probably wouldn't have given us the freedom of speech in the first place.
The baby didn't ask P to be irresponsible and have unprotected sex so why is it that the baby should be the one to pay the consequence and be spoken about like it was just an inconvenience like having to go through your junk mail and throw it out? And then to post this why, because you liked your hair? Seriously?
Posted by Mindy on October 1, 2009 at 3:17 pm | permalink |
@Mindy said: "What's wrong about Doreen saying this? She was just using her freedom of speech just like Penelope did."
And the other commenters were just using their freedom of speech to respond to Doreen.
Posted by Caitlin on October 1, 2009 at 4:58 pm | permalink |
And so was I, how long would you like to keep this going?
Posted by Mindy on October 1, 2009 at 8:27 pm | permalink |
@Mindy, I quote: "What's wrong about Doreen saying this? She was just using her freedom of speech just like Penelope did."
It sounded like you were criticizing Doreen's detractors on the grounds that they were undermining her freedom of speech. In actual fact, while they disagreed with what she said and her choice to say it, no one attacked her constitutional right to say it. So I'm not sure why you bothered to make the point that she was exercising freedom of speech. So what? That doesn't give her a free pass to avoid disagreement.
No one has a free pass to avoid disagreement – you or Doreen are free to disagree with Penelope or me or anyone else. But why bring freedom of speech into it when it's not in question? Why defend what's not attacked?
That's all.
Posted by Caitlin on October 5, 2009 at 1:31 am | permalink |
P, been a long time follower of your blog now. From my readings, I can honestly say that one of your best AND worst attributes is your lack of tact.
It's your greatest strength — you gamely discuss topics that others would consider TMI. Good for you for addressing things in a brutally honest way.
It's your greatest weakness — while you are brutally honest, you don't seem to care that your tone and style rub people the wrong way.
Posted by David on October 1, 2009 at 11:50 am | permalink |
Wow, look at the hate spilling over here.
Kudos, Penelope, on not being afraid to be honest (while still being civil). Something we could all learn from.
Posted by Tzipporah on October 1, 2009 at 11:59 am | permalink |
I am so sorry that your baby died are you are happy about it. I will pray for you and your family. :(
Posted by Kelly on October 1, 2009 at 11:59 am | permalink |
I think you are correct. Great hair!
How can a man give a good interview on a topic that really only effects women. I didn't appreciate his attitude. Isn't the reporters supposed to be middle of the road, non judgmental reporting? Doesn't he stating he is a catholic makes his interviewed skewed?
My miscarriage was during a 10 hour flight back home from a work trip in Europe and it was extremely painful and yes heavy bleeding. The pain lasted 2 days and was horrible! And yes he was a stupid man for not knowing what his potential partner could go through. Love the start of the comb over he is rocking too.
Posted by Jen the opinionated on October 1, 2009 at 12:03 pm | permalink |
Hey P',
Good work with this interview. That was a though topic with a though interviewer who had his personnal opinion which didn't match yours.
You did great !
Eric
Posted by Eric on October 1, 2009 at 12:21 pm | permalink |
I think the lesson of this interview is how well Penelope handled herself in front of the camera. All business people who may find themselves being interviewed should take note: She mentioned her company, she gave her url, she paused before answering questions, she didn't get excited or respond emotionally to the reporter, she smiled, she was engaging, she made sure she got her point across in an easy-to-understand manner. I could go on. Bravo, Penelope. And for the people who commented on the interviewer: he was just doing his job, trying to get an interesting story on the air, sharing just enough of his own experiences and opinions to draw the subject out. His patronizing comments may have been part of his plan, or not. It doesn't matter. What matters is how Penelope responded and if the interview was good for her and for her business.
Posted by Donna on October 1, 2009 at 12:23 pm | permalink |
I love you for this comment, Donna. Thanks. And I agree with you about the interviewer. He didn't bother me. I thought he asked tough, direct, and interesting questions.
Also, CNN edited the interview, and you don't actually hear the most surprising stuff Rick asked about. For example, he asked me a lot about the farmer and his family and what they thought about an abortion.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on October 1, 2009 at 12:55 pm | permalink |
Penelope, I agree with Donna that you interviewed well with Rick. The point you make about editing an interview is what I find interesting. I'm not talking about this interview specifically but interviews with the media in general. Some interviews are live and others are broadcast after having been edited. Many times while watching an interview it's difficult to pick up on whether or not an interview has been edited. A case in point is this interview as we wouldn't know Rick asked questions about the farmer or his family and their opinions. There's also the article the NY Times did with you last year with your divorce. I remember that interview was not the best as I believe it misinterpreted some things you were trying to convey to the interviewer.
It really comes down to the fact that you don't have much if any control over the content you furnish to a given media if you don't have control over the media itself. A perfect example is your blog which is your content and your media. This is what I'd like to see – a blog post on various media types and some of your experiences with them. I wonder how they determine what gets published and what doesn't and also how they can take content and manipulate it to espouse a certain view. I agree that the ABC interview was a good interview.
Posted by Mark W. on October 2, 2009 at 8:51 am | permalink |
Penelope, I am a fan. Your blog is well-written, literary, compulsively readable, provocative. I admire so much your ability to impart wisdom unapologetically, and to be both brazen and self-aware.
But I almost unfollowed you after the miscarriage Tweet.
You have the right to an abortion, you have the right to talk about it, to complain about the law. You have a right to be grateful that you miscarried a pregnancy you didn't want.
But I have a right to personal space, too. And when your Tweet popped up on my screen, it unnerved and upset me. It seemed callous and dismissive of a tiny life that had only you to protect it. It reduced that life to a public expression of joy at its loss, which is what it will always be in public memory.
I grieved that more than I wanted to.
I've read your writing about Aspergers with interest and agree that there may be a strong connection between that post and the ones around your miscarriage Tweet. There is huge benefit in your courage to Speak of All Things. But it can violate other people's personal space.
I don't think the only question is "what are your boundaries in sharing" but also "what are your co-workers boundaries in being exposed?"
I think you are a fantastic blogger, a great example of what this medium can do and who can do it right. But I am going to have to be more careful about reading your material because your boundaries are not where I need them to be, and the benefit I get from your work may not be worth the price I could pay reading it.
Elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on October 1, 2009 at 12:27 pm | permalink |
Elizabeth, while my boundaries are not the same as yours I found your argument here to be very well articulated.
Posted by Steph on October 1, 2009 at 1:41 pm | permalink |
Elizabeth, if you can't handle the open discussion, perhaps it would be a better use of your time to read something that will not upset your delicate sensibilities? I rather have the choice of frank discussions that are honest than have her censor herself. I choose to read or I can choose not to. You are able to make that choice as well.
Posted by Jen the opinionated on October 1, 2009 at 2:19 pm | permalink |
Thanks, Steph, I appreciate that.
Jen — Yes, as I said above, I may choose not to follow Penelope any more. I thought she should know that at least one smart, pro-choice career woman was disturbed by the Tweet. How important that is is up to her.
I had a coworker who Tweets about which women give him erections. I unfollowed the heck out of that openness, too. :)
Posted by Elizabeth on October 1, 2009 at 2:41 pm | permalink |
Why don't you stop being so thin-skinned and realize not everything is about you? If you don't like what Penelope has to say, don't read it. You do not have the right to personal space when you INVITE and ENCOURAGE people to post tweets that show up on your homepage. You asked for them there, so they are there.
Grow up.
Posted by Anonymous on October 1, 2009 at 3:13 pm | permalink |
Wow, you were so proud of your mean-spirited, close-minded comments that you posted them anonymously. How brave of you. Elizabeth has you beat in the articulateness and intelligence game so you could only react as a little boy. Pity for you.
Posted by Sidney on October 2, 2009 at 5:30 pm | permalink |
Sidney, give it a rest. I was not the anonymous poster above; but seriously, re-read what Elizabeth posted:
"But I have a right to personal space, too. And when your Tweet popped up on my screen, it unnerved and upset me."
You have GOT to be kidding me! It's twitter. In order to receive that message, you clicked a button marked 'follow' that specified you were going to get everything this person sent directly on your front page!
The fact that you made a poor judgment about the person you chose to follow is your problem, not hers. She's unlikely to change her personality, so just following her. Don't complain about your 'personal space' on twitter, of all things!
Of course, I suppose Elizabeth's unlikely to change her personality too, so it's probably not worth sending this response. But perhaps she might at least recognise the weakness in the particular logic that she employed.
For the record, this doesn't put me in favour of P.T.'s post. I think she's pretty narcissistic, and incredibly immature for her age. The specifics of this particular story don't especially make me feel that more than her other posts, though. And she struck me as fairly eloquent and logical on TV. It's a shame her writing is weaker, and that she's publicity-obsessed.
Posted by David on October 10, 2009 at 12:09 pm | permalink |
You rule. It's so funny how absolutely uncomfortable that guy is and how comfortable and in control you are! It's clear who has the power in that conversation.
I'm so glad you're talking about this!
Finally, your hair looks awesome.
Posted by Irina I on October 1, 2009 at 12:31 pm | permalink |
"Wait three weeks or whatever…" What an asshole.
Posted by Anonymous on October 1, 2009 at 12:33 pm | permalink |
Thank you so much for educating so many people about the realities of miscarriage and the female experience.
Posted by Jackie1776 on October 1, 2009 at 12:38 pm | permalink |
Penelope, this is the exact reason I searched you out. I read the Salon article the day after you posted about your miscarriage on twitter, and I am so happy I did. I, too, am overwhelmingly grateful for women like you who have the ovaries to not be delicate about basic biology and basic human rights and refuse to be shamed into apology. If it weren't for the women and men who thought similarly, I'd be an involuntary mom, too, and so would almost every single one of my female friends, who are well-educated, successful, and happy. It's okay to be happy to have a miscarriage, and it's okay to want or need an abortion. Thanks for helping the rest of us out with your openness.
(I'd be interested to know not how many followers you lost on twitter, but how many followers and new subscribers you gained.)
Posted by Lydia on October 1, 2009 at 12:39 pm | permalink |
I read your blog pretty regularly, but for whatever reason the other day when someone mentioned to me about a woman on the news talking about why she was happy she had a miscarriage, I didn't make the connection and realize they were talking about you.
I have to give you a lot of credit to go on the air with a guy like Rick Sanchez – I find him to be a bit of an arrogant/pompous jerk. You handled his questions quite well.
You're right though, miscarriages and other "taboo topics" should be talked about. Because how else are people going to learn about, understand and bring awareness to things that happen in everyday life if we are too scared to discuss them?
Posted by David on October 1, 2009 at 12:47 pm | permalink |
Every time I read your blog, I feel thankful that there is someone intelligent out there who has the courage to talk honestly about difficult subjects. Watching this CNN clip only reinforced that feeling for me. Thank you and Bravo!
Posted by Siri on October 1, 2009 at 12:50 pm | permalink |
rock the fuck on, girl! you continue to blow me away. and your hair does look awesome.
Posted by hayley on October 1, 2009 at 12:52 pm | permalink |
you are one crazy b#tch.
Posted by donna on October 1, 2009 at 12:52 pm | permalink |
"You were in a board meeting… did you just have it?"
You have got to be kidding. Oops, I just had a miscarriage. Sorry to interrupt, carry on with stock summary.
Meh.
Posted by Ange on October 1, 2009 at 12:55 pm | permalink |
P.Trunk – you have messed up priorities too. You're the subject of national defamation & you're worried about your fre@king hair?
I wouldn't worry too much about the hair…you've got an ugly face anyway.
Posted by donna on October 1, 2009 at 12:57 pm | permalink |
Did you have Botox recently? Jesus lady, your face doesn't even move when you talk. My God!
Posted by Anna on October 1, 2009 at 1:04 pm | permalink |
Thanks Penelope. Although I am quite disappointed that you didn't take the opportunity to say that one third of women in the United States will have an abortion in their lifetime.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
Posted by em on October 1, 2009 at 1:06 pm | permalink |
Wow. I actually didn't know this statistic. But this is an example of all the information that's flowing now that we're talking about the topic.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on October 1, 2009 at 2:14 pm | permalink |
With those numbers, the stigma on that kind of makes you want to scream. Right? Since you like numbers here are some more for you:
Consider that women can reproduce from about age 16-46. Roughly 30 years. The most effective forms of birth control are 98% effective. However this 98% is measured not over a life time, but over a year. So 2 in every 100 women get pregnant. Continue those odds over a women's reproductive life span (2 out of every hundred, every year for 30 years). With that if you're sexually active even if you use birth control roughly half of women will have an unplanned pregnancy. That's taking into consideration that not all women are having sex every year, sometimes women are pregnant, not all birth control is 98% of effective and some birth control can be even more effective.
These numbers are (very) sloppy, but the idea that using birth control will prevent pregnancy over a woman's lifetime is a fallacy. This isn't emphasized (and I think rightly so) because there's concern that the religious right and especially teens (who are especially fertile which is part of why there is such a problem with teenage pregnancy) will manipulate them to say birth control doesn't work.
It does work. A 50% chance of one unplanned pregnancy in a lifetime is much better than having a dozen kids. But unplanned pregnancy is part of any woman's life. And abortion is part of a third of women in the US's life.
Posted by emv on October 2, 2009 at 2:17 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
My girl-friend turned me on to your website yesterday. I read about 15 posts, then had to get back to work. Logged on to my Google Reader, and there was this post/video. You are women's unsung hero. I can't even describe how much I think you rock. Thank you for this, thank you for this blog, and please keep sharing your opinions with us.
Juliana
Posted by juliana on October 1, 2009 at 1:06 pm | permalink |
I watched this interview as it aired. Maybe I'm crazy, but wasn't the Pope comment at the (rather abrupt)end of the interview? Anyway, good luck.
Posted by Marc on October 1, 2009 at 1:07 pm | permalink |
I love how the ad hominem attacks flow when commenters have nothing intelligent to contribute. Ladies, get a life if you can't offer a simple opposing viewpoint in place of attacking her appearance.
Posted by Lydia on October 1, 2009 at 1:10 pm | permalink |
Seriously, only someone with Asperger's could think that these topics are sane or that they're even witty (which obviously she does). This is coming from the same person that gets "overwhelmed" trying to order dinner!
Posted by Carmen on October 1, 2009 at 1:10 pm | permalink |
You're cool. I like how you took Rick Sanchez's embarrassing ignorance in stride. This never gets old!
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-november-8-2005/moment-of-zen—sanchez-taser
Posted by David on October 1, 2009 at 1:13 pm | permalink |
Lydia – are you going to offer an opposing view or are you also swooning over Penelope's unsung heroism??
Posted by donna on October 1, 2009 at 1:14 pm | permalink |
Cuz agreeing (or disagreeing for that matter) with Penelope is just like calling her ugly.
Posted by Lesly on October 1, 2009 at 1:32 pm | permalink |
I already did.
Posted by Lydia on October 1, 2009 at 2:56 pm | permalink |
I love your blog. And your honesty. Thank you for talking about things that everyone else tiptoes around.
Posted by Stacy on October 1, 2009 at 1:23 pm | permalink |
You came across very well, congratulations. You didn't fall into any of the traps he set for you.
Posted by richie on October 1, 2009 at 1:25 pm | permalink |
Your blogs are crazy fodder – you talk about being Jew and eating pork and dating a pig farmer. You talk about multiple men in the span of 6 months…"maybe boyfriends". Obviously you don't treat potential pregnancy very seriously, with your various abortions. Your references to the synogogue and making atonement – you treat religion as a joke. What do you take seriously, Penelope?
Posted by Terry on October 1, 2009 at 1:27 pm | permalink |
Penelope, thank you SO much for being willing to put this out there and actually defend your actions and make people aware of, as you so aptly put it, "the female experience." As a childfree woman myself, who has also had a miscarriage and was epically relieved, I appreciate your bluntness because it echoes my own all too familiar sentiments. I absolutely DO NOT want children, and a miscarriage would be preferable to an abortion, which I would go through without hesitation if necessary. I find it interesting that talking about the "miracle" of childbirth and all the graphic (in my opinion) grossness it involves is perfectly acceptable and even celebrated, but a miscarriage is a "personal issue" and shouldn't be discussed. And god forbid a woman is actually relieved about it! I feel that it's just yet another manifestation of enforcing gender roles and how women who don't embrace every pregnancy as the ultimate good are seen as somehow less female or are just confused and will eventually give in to the breeder brain.
Okay, I got a little long winded there. I'm done now :)
Posted by Violet Farraday on October 1, 2009 at 1:34 pm | permalink |
You have balls, you're true to yourself, and you've opened the door to an important dialogue. I saw your post on twitter, and was taken aback for a moment. As a longtime reader, in no way did I think that you were being flip or careless about the miscarriage/abortion.
I think you're brave.
Posted by Erin on October 1, 2009 at 1:47 pm | permalink |
Amen sister. This is awesome. Thank you for speaking out and not being ashamed for being a woman.
Posted by Devon on October 1, 2009 at 1:48 pm | permalink |
Abortions are awful! They are tragic and can haunt the aborters for years. It is one of the most difficult decisions a female could ever make.
I've never had an abortion. And if I'm not the one with the decision to make, than I can't judge it.
As far as your twitter. I would just say TMI. You can talk about sex all you want. I really don't need to know that you are in meeting and struggling with a miscarriage. As sad as they may be, its not like you twitter when you have your period…or do you?
Posted by Liza on October 1, 2009 at 1:48 pm | permalink |
Then you really don't need to follow her do you? You invited her tweets by adding her, so deal with it or grow up and stop being a little b!tch.
Posted by Anonymous on October 1, 2009 at 3:16 pm | permalink |
Is this the same anonymous as above? What a fine fascist you must be ranting at opposing viewpoints. And oh so brave doing it anonymously…wow, how proud your parents must be!
Look Mom, another hate filled response sent over the web! What a fine human being I am! Can I have a cookie?
Posted by Sidney on October 2, 2009 at 5:35 pm | permalink |
And on a side note, Rich Sanchez immediately annoyed me when he called you "young lady," as if he was your father and you needed reprimanded!
You're 42 and he is 51. He's not exactly your elder by any means. I just think he's a dick that needs to be more respectful to those he's interviewing.
Posted by David on October 1, 2009 at 1:49 pm | permalink |
Haha:
"You're 42 and he is 51. He's not exactly your elder by any means."
Not by any means, huh? How about the means of… mathematics! I'm not saying the decade age difference is significant to their interview. But, uh… I'm pretty sure that 51 is older than 42.
Posted by David on October 10, 2009 at 12:15 pm | permalink |
Your Tweet appeared to have nothing to do with telling the "truth" and everything to do with shameless self-promotion. If your thoughts and ideas are truly intelligent and well spoken, you shouldn't need to resort to such a blatent publicity stunt to garner attention and new readers for your blog.
Where is your sense of privacy and dignity? Isn't anything sacred anymore? What happened to people having friends and family, doctors and professionals to offer emotional, moral and personal support and validation? Apparently being honest with people who are close to you, and with yourself, isn't enough.
Just because you can say it doesn't mean you should. Your comment begs for attention, a reaction, ANY reaction, as desperately as Britney Spear's crotch flashing, Paris Hilton's one night hook-ups and Lindsey Lohan's tragic breakdowns. It's not reality, it's desperate, full-frontal exhibitionism. And what a poor disservice it does to real women experiencing real problems and genuine emotions. Everything you wrote smacks of inauthenticity and mocks the complex, conflicting and often overwhelming feelings that pregnancy and loss can evoke.
What a damn waste of words.
Posted by Miriam on October 1, 2009 at 1:50 pm | permalink |
Weird, I was thinking the same thing about your comment.
Posted by Noah on October 1, 2009 at 9:56 pm | permalink |
Yeah, a comment in response to a blog post is equally as self-promotional as a "Hey! Look at ME!" Tweet deliberately engineered to be splashed across major media outlets.
Right on Noah! Real sharp! You got me on this one! I bet my comment will be on CNN tomorrow…
Posted by Miriam on October 3, 2009 at 2:16 pm | permalink |
this is awesome. thank you for not being ashamed to be a woman and not being ashamed to want to exercise your rights. and thank you for making a "publicity stunt" out of it, as one commenter calls it, because these issues need a hell of a lot more publicity than they get in the male dominated corporate media. thank you!!!
Posted by Devon on October 1, 2009 at 1:57 pm | permalink |
Fantastic interview! I am inspired by you. I am glad that you kept bringing the interview back to the point of having to wait to have an abortion due to state laws. I am outraged at the idea of the abortion wait time not about you tweeting about a miscarriage.
Posted by Nicole on October 1, 2009 at 1:59 pm | permalink |
I think what a lot of people are saying is that Penelope "rejected her young"…she wasn't sad about the miscarriage…she was relieved…she's heartless…etc etc.
Human beings have animal insticts confounded by complex thinking…my point is, some mothers reject their young. It can naturally happen that you have relief when you miscarry…that you DON'T want a pregnancy. I don't know that I believe it's all because a woman is a sadistic, heartless baby killer. I think some of the feelings are natural and biological.
Not very well spoken on my part, but hopefully my point came across.
P isn't cruel…she's human. She's not the only woman on earth to be relieved at a miscarriage, or to terminate a pregnancy.
Maybe she lacks tact sometimes, but a great skill to have is seeing through to the message.
Posted by Erin on October 1, 2009 at 2:04 pm | permalink |
I think the problem is that some women drink the motherhood koolaide and do not realize that it is OK to be relieve over a miscarriage let alone maybe do not want a pregnancy. Why is every one judging?
Miscarriage to me = something wrong with the fetus and the body is getting rid of it. To me that is a relief my body knows what it is doing and taking care of a problem for me so I don't have to make that call later on down the line when I may have bonded with a baby.
Another point I would like to re-emphasis is this, not everyone wants children but do not feel the need or get the option for sterilization. I attempted at age 22 to get sterilized and was turned down by the doctors. Thankfully that first marriage ended and I have a wonderful man who talked me into pregnancy. I admit this is the most horrid moment of my life. I was almost hospitalized due to dehydration, 24hr morning sickness and am miserable. I will be thankful when the baby is in my arms and out of my body. Knowing what I know now I'd never do this again or do it a first time. So I believe my first choice of not wanting to reproduce was the correct one.
I will have an amazing child I am having no doubt. I just wish a stork could have brought it to us.
Posted by Jen the opinionated on October 1, 2009 at 2:16 pm | permalink |
Jen, my wife and I are very pro human/life, but we also went through our first baby and you will change your mind upon seeing that child. Sophia Elizabeth was dropped from Heaven into our living room and my wife couldn't stop crying when she first saw her. She even had to go on "lovenox" shots nightly to have her, as she suffers from some weird blood condition, and we will definitely have another, in spite of her challenges. I hope we have many more, but we are getting old and hopefully God will bless us many more times like our parents were blessed.
I NOW finally, at age 33, understand what my mom meant when she said "you five kids were the best thing that came out of my marriage."
No Kidding, I couldn't imagine life without my 13 month old (9 inside mom and 4 outside, all with the two of us).
Posted by Dan on October 2, 2009 at 2:31 pm | permalink |
Friendly recommendation: Don't start your interview responses with "Well.."
You are great!!!!!
Posted by ayelet on October 1, 2009 at 2:05 pm | permalink |
+1 for constructive criticism.
Posted by Dree on October 2, 2009 at 10:07 pm | permalink |
The Asperger's explains it. You really can't take anything this woman says seriously. She's not really in charge of her thoughts or her mouth.
Posted by Jen on October 1, 2009 at 2:06 pm | permalink |
She's not really in charge of her thoughts or her mouth.
You need to think that or rethink what you think you know. ;)
Posted by Lesly on October 1, 2009 at 2:09 pm | permalink |
Actually, people with Asperger's are well-known for their logical and well-articulated thoughts and speech. They're probably more "in charge of [their] thoughts and mouth" than non-Asperger folks.
Penelope, please keep on being your best self, and thanks so much for shoo-ing all of these taboo topics out of the broom closet!
Posted by Annette on October 1, 2009 at 3:27 pm | permalink |
"They" are "well-known" for "logical and well-articulated thoughts and speech"? From Wikipedia (gotta love my classy references, right):
"Although individuals with Asperger syndrome acquire language skills without significant general delay and their speech typically lacks significant abnormalities, language acquisition and use is often atypical. Abnormalities include verbosity, abrupt transitions, literal interpretations and miscomprehension of nuance, use of metaphor meaningful only to the speaker, auditory perception deficits, unusually pedantic, formal or idiosyncratic speech, and oddities in loudness, pitch, intonation, prosody, and rhythm."
"The mainstay of management is behavioral therapy, focusing on specific deficits to address poor communication skills, obsessive or repetitive routines, and physical clumsiness. Most individuals improve over time, but difficulties with communication, social adjustment and independent living continue into adulthood."
Posted by David on October 10, 2009 at 12:21 pm | permalink |
I would also like to add thanks for helping me to understand miscarriage-
I am thirty, I am a woman, and I had no idea that they can take a number of weeks to occur. Until yesterday when I read your article, I assumed it was a big-bang-hospital event when it happened- and I am close to/related to many women who have had miscarriages. This really highlights the need for discussion- my friends/relatives and I generally consider ourselves to be liberal and educated people… clearly there is a need for more education.
Posted by Jen on October 1, 2009 at 2:15 pm | permalink |
I bet no one complains when a man Tweets about his triple-bypass surgery.
Go, Penelope.
Posted by Lillet on October 1, 2009 at 2:16 pm | permalink |
I completely support your authenticity here. Miscarriage (and indeed abortion) are such huge taboos and women at work normally have to cover up both. I admire your courage in putting these subjects out in the open, and in putting some of the realities of life slap bang in the midst of work when these things are normally required to sit separately.
Posted by Christine Livingston on October 1, 2009 at 2:20 pm | permalink |
It appears that CNN has removed this video. I would have liked to see it.
Posted by Leah on October 1, 2009 at 2:33 pm | permalink |
What a great interview! I have a question, though. Why does it take an adult woman in Wisconsin 3 weeks to get an abortion? Is there that long of a waiting period?
I'm glad that you talked about this openly- there is so much mystery around these issues for so many people.
Posted by Bunny on October 1, 2009 at 2:38 pm | permalink |
I don't know if you read these comments, but I honestly found this so refreshing.
I had no idea that a miscarriage took this form (the amount of time, intermittent pain).
I think you represented your views in a graceful and compassionate manner in the face of this arsehole.
Posted by Harpreet on October 1, 2009 at 2:45 pm | permalink |
harpreet – oh, you mean it's only this guy giving this poor innocent woman a hard time? Get real! There are thousands upon thousands of people utterly outraged right now, and Sanchez, amongst many others, is just being a voice of reason in the madness.
Posted by Genevive on October 1, 2009 at 2:49 pm | permalink |
The only madness is in the concept that a certain segment of society somehow has the right to tell an individual that what they do is wrong, simply because it offends that segment's sensibilities. We are each of us human, each of us the product of our parents, our environment, our life. We do not all see things the same way, nor is it necessarily good that we do, lest we fall into the doldrums of conformity. Still, the individual has the right to their beliefs, and where belief is concerned, there can be no right-or-wrong answer, only what the individual determines works best for them.
If you are outraged, Genevive, that is your prerogative, but that outrage is based on your view of the world, and in this country no one view can necessarily be held above all others, lest we cede our right to freedom of individuality. Each must make their own choice, and each must be given the chance to make it, and live with the repercussions of that choice. If Penelope chose this, then she is the only one it truly affects. Not you. Not I. While abortion is legal, it the right of any woman to decide for herself what is best, and we must look toward women in these kinds of situations with compassion, not with rhetoric.
Posted by NefariousNewt on October 1, 2009 at 3:10 pm | permalink |
Congratulations Penelope – I'm sure with you're looking for ways to add value to your company as you transition out of the CEO role. I think it's incredible the sacrifices you'll make in order to drag traffic and increase reason. You're investors should rest assured that there is truly nothing you won't do in order to be successful.
Posted by Sara on October 1, 2009 at 3:01 pm | permalink |
"transition" Sara? She was fired. Get it right, this is the real world, she wasn't performing, was too involved with putting her personal life over the company, and those who provided the start up capital, Kegonsa Partners, said "enough is enough," and sh*t canned her.
Nice way of putting it, though. Now she can do this painfully boring, Jerry Springer blog full time.
Posted by Dan on October 2, 2009 at 2:26 pm | permalink |
Thank you for showing that it is possible to have a rational, level-headed discussion of a polarizing topic, without invective, vitriol, or name-calling. This interview was closer to the actual give-and-take of debate than we've seen in a while in this country. I applaud your honesty and your willingness to take us inside a world many of us do not know well enough.
Posted by NefariousNewt on October 1, 2009 at 3:02 pm | permalink |
you are my hero. women being women out loud and with conviction will always be my favorite thing.
Posted by roxy lonergan on October 1, 2009 at 3:11 pm | permalink |
Hey Penelope,
I would just like to tell you that the haters on this blog are nothing more than simple-minded people who think everything is black and white. They want nothing other than to oppress women and shame you. Do not be ashamed for you have nothing to be ashamed of. Any man can have sex whenever he wants and nobody freaks out, but EVERYONE freaks out when a woman does that because her uterus may or may not potentially carry a child. Absolutely no one would be commenting if a man tweeted about one of his medical procedures.
Also. Over half of ALL pregnancies end in miscarriage. Over half of ALL of them.
Posted by Kayley on October 1, 2009 at 3:20 pm | permalink |
NefariousNewt – I don't know why you wasted the time you just did to write that whole thing, but thank you. I guess you did make me realize two things. First, it does no good to stand up against utter absurdity – there are just so many people waiting to back it up that once you realize that, it's like a second blow. Second, I now know the reason why I steer clear of people's blogs, their Tweets, their Facebook updates – it's all people's personal opinions – usually uninteresting, occasionally offensive, ALWAYS time wasting. Better to live the life you've been blessed with. I'm stepping out of this conversation.
over & out
Posted by donna on October 1, 2009 at 3:23 pm | permalink |
The lives of women. You are my hero.
Posted by LPC on October 1, 2009 at 3:27 pm | permalink |
AWESOME! Thank you for speaking up P!
Posted by B on October 1, 2009 at 3:30 pm | permalink |
PS. I just signed up on Brazen Careerist (even tho I'm a long time fan) because of this! :)
Posted by B on October 1, 2009 at 3:36 pm | permalink |
Thank you so much for being open and honest. Keep it up!
Posted by Melissa on October 1, 2009 at 3:38 pm | permalink |
Next time you should use birth control. Have you heard of that?
You are utterly disgusting.
Use birth control.
Stop using the death of a child( as a prop for anti-abortion issues. Find another way. You are the one that is ridiculous
to use this for you own agenda
Use birth control if you do not want to have a child.
The natural part is being educated enough to find ways of not getting pregnant in the first place and all the stds
involved having unprotected sex
Posted by Name on October 1, 2009 at 3:47 pm | permalink |
Watching Rick Sanchez interview at the beginning was painful, but through your graceful and honest demeanor, I feel he softened up in the end. Great interview!
I think what you're doing is great, and I really admire your courage to stand your ground. I discovered your blog about a week ago, maybe a day after your twitter, and I have found your site informative, exciting, and empowering. Thanks
MissMentor
Posted by Lisa on October 1, 2009 at 4:09 pm | permalink |
A miscarriage is a loss even if you don't realize it. And I'm sorry for your loss. God is waiting for you to talk to Him about this. He loves you.
Posted by Rochelle on October 1, 2009 at 4:24 pm | permalink |
And so is the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Posted by Meg on October 1, 2009 at 7:34 pm | permalink |
What a jerk! Great interview. I doubt I would have been able to stay that polite and diplomatic.
Just another woman chiming in to say thank you for your honesty and courage.
Posted by Jess on October 1, 2009 at 4:35 pm | permalink |
You were awesome.
I can't believe he called you "young lady!"
Posted by Kim on October 1, 2009 at 4:36 pm | permalink |
Pen, do you have a reference for the statistic that 75% of women will have a miscarriage / have miscarried? I don't disbelieve you but I'd like to see it. The only statistics I've seen say that 15-20% of known pregnancies result in miscarriage or that 15% of women who already know they are pregnant will miscarry.
Posted by Caitlin on October 1, 2009 at 4:37 pm | permalink |
i've been reading your blog off and on for a while now, and i have to say that i am very impressed! if people would talk about these historically taboo issues, perhaps they wouldn't be the root of so much confusion and contention.
Posted by liam. on October 1, 2009 at 4:42 pm | permalink |
Thank you thank you! I have never seen such a well-reasoned interview on the topic of abortions or miscarriages, especially in the face of such idiocy. I really took your point about "Whether or not you believe women should have the right to abortion, they do in this country" to heart. We do seem to get bogged down in vague morality things and ignore that it's a right guaranteed by the Supreme Court for thirty years.
Though I have not had an abortion or a miscarriage, I might experience either in the future– and if by then, it is the slightest bit LESS taboo, it may very well be because of your openness.
Posted by Rosalie on October 1, 2009 at 4:47 pm | permalink |
P, you looked really pretty! I know it's not a comment on the substance of the interview but whatever.
Posted by J (the regular poster one) on October 1, 2009 at 4:52 pm | permalink |
Penelope – WOW!
You handled that interview with Sanchez so calmly and professionally. He started off okay, but then lost his journalistic objectivity and brought in his own beliefs. Who gives a shit whether he's Catholic and Pro-Life.
You helped advance the cause for women, despite having to talk to a thick-headed guy.
On a related note, the PEW organizations just released a public opinion poll on abortion in America. Apparently, while Democrats are holding their own, opposition is rising among Republicans. This is cause for concern for women's rights to abortion.
And by the way, Penelope, your hair is much nicer than Rick's. Stay brave…
Jim
…Father of four adult kids and Pro-choice in Ottawa, Canada
Posted by Jim on October 1, 2009 at 5:05 pm | permalink |
You handled the interview very well. You were calm, you answered the questions, you made your points, you mentioned your company, you smiled. Regardless of whether people agree with you over the issues, they could definitely learn from the interviewing technique.
***
When he said "I'm Catholic so I have a hard time with this. Did you have to get over that?" (I paraphrase), I thought you were going to say "Get over Catholic guilt? No, I'm Jewish".
The response would have been too glib perhaps but I thought it was a strange way for him to phrase the question.
Posted by Caitlin on October 1, 2009 at 5:12 pm | permalink |
Jews who actually practice their religion do not believe in killing babies, so if she were a real Jew, this would not have been a consideration for her.
Posted by Dan on October 1, 2009 at 5:49 pm | permalink |
@Dan My point was the phrasing of Sanchez's question, not how Jews choose to practise their religion.
Posted by Caitlin on October 5, 2009 at 1:33 am | permalink |
It is my hope that your so called website "sponsors" will be boycotted by the pro human movement. Strange that you would brag about wanting to kill your baby, but I am sorry for your loss.
I will not eat at Chili's until they drop your sponsorship.
Posted by Dan on October 1, 2009 at 5:45 pm | permalink |
Your waistline thanks you Dan.
The "people who shop at Wal-Mart" website should do a "people who eat at Chili's" version. Amazing how people with no palate for quality food can end up so large.
Posted by Sidney on October 2, 2009 at 5:38 pm | permalink |
that was amazing. I didn't have an actual miscarriage at work but I carried the deceased embryo for weeks, eventually losing him at home at night. But you're right – it took three weeks and I couldn't, despite what some people at work said (suggesting I should not be there) take three weeks off waiting for it to happen).
thank you for speaking so honestly about it. I don't know that I could, but women like you can and it's great.
Posted by bells on October 1, 2009 at 5:46 pm | permalink |
It would seem to me abortion was legalized about seven years too late.
Posted by Dan on October 1, 2009 at 5:48 pm | permalink |
I am so glad you posted this. You are truly Pro-human. You don't believe that fetuses deserve more rights than anyone born nor do you, apparently, believe that it is fair that in the majority of cases people vehemently at*tempt* argue that it is justified that only women ever be forced to sacrifice their right to bodily integrity in order to save someone else's life… thereby becoming less than human and nothing more than a living, breathing life support system. Something like what Rick and Dave would like to see happen, apparently.
Posted by Ali9Heaven on October 1, 2009 at 5:57 pm | permalink |
Ali, your comments are very ignorant. Anyone who has had a baby will tell you with 100% that that so called fetus is a life "from conception." We now have ultrasounds in great detail to "prove" what women have for hundreds of years already known, that a baby is a baby, in the womb or outside.
In fact, it's said the first three months of a baby's life are its "fourth trimester." Why shouldn't it be OK to have infantacide at this point? If your argument is that since a human, like us all, at some point in its life needs outside assistance (this DOES continue after birth), then why stop at the womb???
Posted by Dan on October 2, 2009 at 2:23 pm | permalink |
Sorry, not Dave but Dan.
Posted by Ali9Heaven on October 1, 2009 at 5:58 pm | permalink |
I had to skip a bunch of comments because I'm in a hurry, so forgive me if this is repetitive, but I really appreciate the way you brought the conversation back around to the fact that states create hoops for women to jump through that make getting this legal surgery more difficult. It's that sneaky slippery slope that has made abortion impossible, if not illegal, in many parts of the country. Embarrassingly enough, I also didn't know that a miscarriage took place over time (and I'm a woman!), so that was probably a real service to a lot of people.
Posted by Susan on October 1, 2009 at 6:13 pm | permalink |
I think one of the most educational things for me here is that the comments are very rarely deleted on this blog.
Posted by Mark W. on October 1, 2009 at 6:26 pm | permalink |
You were phenomenal on TV! I watched the clip and I clapped at the end of it. It's really powerful, partly because it's so rare, to see a woman being unapologetic about her health and her body. THANK YOU.
Posted by Katie on October 1, 2009 at 6:32 pm | permalink |
That was awesome. Though I am not as open as you are about my private life, I agree with everything you said. It has long amazed me that nobody talks about abortion or miscarriage in this way– as run of the mill, everyday stuff. Because it is. It is totally normal as possible a woman to be emotional on the subject of reproduction and reproductive health at times, and at other times, to feel utterly matter of fact. You came across as entirely clear-headed.
In fact, I wonder if the two buzz topics of the week on your blog, miscarriage, and Asperger's haven't come together in a most auspicious way? Is it possible that some of what you've said about Asperger's, a difficulty picking up on social cues and acting appropriately in response, was part of what led you to speaking (ok, twittering) so frankly? I think a lot of women who felt the way you felt might have balked at speaking this way so as not to offend. I would love to hear more about this.
Thanks for sharing the interview. And I've got to say, after what seemed a very rough, scolding start to me– "young lady"– I thought he came around to treating you with respect. It is hard to argue with the essential statement you stuck to about the rights we have in this country.
Posted by Bonnie on October 1, 2009 at 6:39 pm | permalink |
Penelope, thank you for being a brazen woman, and human being. Your stance takes courage and you had a great interview. People taking this is the type of stand is what our country was founded on.
Posted by Erin on October 1, 2009 at 7:05 pm | permalink |
That interviewer was downright rude, and he completely railroaded the discussion. While some may argue that all publicity is good publicity, I'm not sure that letting yourself get chastised by an ineffective interviewer on TV was a very productive use of your time, especially since the discussion ended up so disjointed.
Posted by Kaye on October 1, 2009 at 7:09 pm | permalink |
WOW! I never comment on anything and you have gotten me so riled up I have now commented TWICE on your blog!
You are so awesome. Thank you for speaking out about how ABSURDLEY hard it can be to get an abortion… and how completely unacceptable that is. All of the crazy Christians are out there waving bloody signs and shooting doctors. If the way to fight back is to be open about our experiences then bring it on! I pledge to tell everyone I know, who didn't already know, that I've had an abortion. And it was the best decision I ever made (and I am proud to live in a country where the decision was my own).
Good job with the CNN idiot. Seriously.
Posted by In Seattle on October 1, 2009 at 7:34 pm | permalink |
yes penelope!!! you are my hero! Don't listen to the haters, you are progressive and the world needs people like you. thank you.
Posted by Emily S. on October 1, 2009 at 7:34 pm | permalink |
I weep for you, because any woman who is jubilant about a miscarriage has heart as cold as the center of Dante's hell.
Posted by Danny Slavich on October 1, 2009 at 7:46 pm | permalink |
I don't think she said she was jubilant about it. Not once. Relief is not happiness. Not always.
Posted by bells on October 1, 2009 at 8:30 pm | permalink |
(Of course, I meant to say "a" heart. But the point remains.)
Posted by Danny Slavich on October 1, 2009 at 7:51 pm | permalink |
Bet you are loving the free advertising!
Posted by Kyle Eppard on October 1, 2009 at 8:04 pm | permalink |
WOW… I just love how many people come here and post comments… nitpicking about this and that, and all any of the negative comments come down to is that you think there is something wrong with either Penelope's openness or you disagree with abortion. That's all many of the negative comments really boil down to.
Posted by Ed on October 1, 2009 at 8:12 pm | permalink |
I've been reflecting on a small, little response I had behind my initial applause of your honesty.
To make miscarriages sound run of the mill does diminish, just a bit, the trauma of it all. I am a sub-fertile woman who seems unable to carry a baby to term. I have lost several. I also aborted one when I was 23. To make out that miscarriages are so run of the mill really does make it sounds as if they almost shouldn't be taken that seriously as a personal loss or tragedy. I can assure when I caught my embryo in my hand, there was nothing run of the mill about that. Ordinary in that it happens to women every day, but not to me every day. Every loss is personal story.
Posted by bells on October 1, 2009 at 8:24 pm | permalink |
I applaud you Penelope. Why is okay for us to hear about erectile disfunction on every TV channel, but God forbid we should even utter the word miscarriage or abortion?!
The guy on CNN was obviously clueless. So much for impartial news coverage. Keep doing what you're doing. The world needs more women to speak their mind!
Posted by Angie on October 1, 2009 at 8:38 pm | permalink |
Rock on, sister.
Posted by Lance on October 1, 2009 at 8:56 pm | permalink |
Wow, Lance, I am really dumbfounded at YOUR lack of regard for a woman's right to choose. There is no celebrating when an unwanted pregnancy is terminated, in this case it is clear she is relieved that it happened naturally.
I have children and I have had a miscarriage when I wanted a baby, it is a horrible experience under virtually any circumstance. And yes, I had to go into my office and go about my work day pretending everything was fine when I was feeling completely physically and emotionally crippled.
For the 2 successful pregnancies I had, those 9 months made me MORE sure that women deserve the right to choose. I cannot imagine going through it when it was unwanted, it could ruin your life and potentially your career (which obvs. at Penelope's level is a non-issue but for many women it would be).
IMO there are 2 points here:
1) we should be discussing women's health in the workplace and that includes reproductive health.
2) Women DO have the right to choose and what goes on in Wisconsin makes it extremely difficult to make that choice.
Posted by Me Thinks on October 2, 2009 at 8:50 am | permalink |
How sad (to put it mildly). I am astonished and dumbfounded at this woman's lack of regard for the unborn child which was within her. I find her callousness to be very heartbreaking. She carried a precious child within her body, and she is celebrating its death. There simply are no words.
Posted by Cecilia on October 1, 2009 at 9:02 pm | permalink |
Mentioning a miscarriage is not the problem. It's how she framed it. "Having a misscarriage… thank God! Too long to wait for an abortion. Now back to my meeting"
How many women delight in having a miscarriage? How many women treat it as if it's just a blessing and also just a mundane event… a minor interuption in the midst of a meeting?
A baby died the moment of her miscarriage. Had that baby not miscarried and not been aborted… this woman would have a child!!
So, it's not mentioning a miscarriage that has people shocked and amazed. It's the fact that she was so fabulously glad to have a miscarriage and lose her obviously unwanted child. By far one of the saddest things I've ever read.
Posted by LoveMyChild on October 1, 2009 at 9:09 pm | permalink |
This is quite a shameful publicity stunt. Whether a woman chooses a pro-life or a pro-choice stance is a personal decision. The fact that this publicity loving "whore" (words taken from another post) chose to broadcast her miscarriage so callously is extremely sad. Yes, miscarriage is a part of life and should be discussed. But to tweet it? Seriously? Is this the new water cooler talk? I think the world may be going mad. Attitude is everything and hers was disgusting.
Some woman are not maternal and are more interested in persuing their careers. Fine, that is their choice. Obviously, with the word "Brazen" in her blog name she needed a post that would be controversial. She got the attention she was after.
And as a college educated, self-employed, Catholic, pro-choice woman, I find you Penelope, to be a poor excuse of a woman.
Posted by Cherie on October 4, 2009 at 9:10 pm | permalink |
Most of the time when a woman miscarriages, it is due to the fact that there is something wrong with the embryo or fetus (genetically, developmentally, etc). It can also be due to environment (womb, health of mother, etc) or other causes. It is most likely if this particular embryo or fetus she was carrying (and I am using these terms because there are the medical terms to describe human life at this point) magically survived to term, it would probably NOT survive on its own. What is great is that the human body has a method for terminating early what would be a tragedy. I am not saying these comments to diminish the hardship of a woman losing a pregnancy when it is truly wanted, or saying these are the only reason for miscarriages, but to bring some biologically facts to the table. BTW, medicine defines a miscarriage has a spontaneous abortion.
Posted by Erin on October 8, 2009 at 2:32 am | permalink |
You cannot be both Catholic and pro-choice.
Posted by Barb on December 5, 2009 at 9:42 pm | permalink |
Penelope, Just heard you over talk radio (Ryan Doyle), it sounds like you have been asked & judged over miscarriage the last 2 days.
This does fit your week's post on Asperger, I just heard that you made a joke about u have more twitter followers than he have & he should twit the way you do. He just got pissed off, while you sound a bit childish when taking losing a potential life like as small as farting in a board meeting.
Some people with Asperger has a overly focused perspective, so it seem selfish to others. The way you express losing a potential life as a relief to your life does show how Asperger affect people in spotlight & consider other's view/perspective.
Just becareful, this will blow over in the next few days.
Posted by Ian Tang on October 1, 2009 at 9:16 pm | permalink |
The CNN video sounded much more considerate & sound than you were on the radio interview I heard too night. (commented above).
It seems like the radio stations using your reaction as a shock value & talking point.
Side note: You look better in this video than your previous interviews 2-3 years ago when your BC book came out.
Posted by Ian on October 1, 2009 at 10:04 pm | permalink |
You rock!!!
Posted by Kandeezie on October 1, 2009 at 10:23 pm | permalink |
Thank you so much for talking about this. Women who have abortions and miscarriages are often shamed and often times have to deal with the experience themselves. Thank you so much for speaking about your experience and sharing with others. We as women should not feel shame about this nor should we be made to feel that we cannot talk about these things. Again, thank you so much and please do continue talking about this.
Posted by gurliehmggurl on October 1, 2009 at 10:39 pm | permalink |
That was excellent and articulate.
Ignore the haters.
Posted by kristen on October 2, 2009 at 12:08 am | permalink |
Its interesting. how to have a boy.
how to conceive a baby boy
how to conceive a boy
Posted by June Boy on October 2, 2009 at 12:59 am | permalink |
Im a little disturbed that news presenters are allowed to talk so rudely and adamantly, and express the bias in their opinion and attribute it to their religion.
Well done for handling that interview. It takes a lot of courage to be out there and voice your opinions.
Posted by Isha Akula on October 2, 2009 at 4:06 am | permalink |
Prude Americans.
Here in Europe, people wouldn't have caused such a commotion over this.
You did great.
Posted by chris on October 2, 2009 at 4:58 am | permalink |
Penelope: You were absolutely right. Your hair did look great!
Posted by Kay Lorraine on October 2, 2009 at 5:32 am | permalink |
I still can't get over that you were going to have to come to Chicago to get an abortion! I feel for the women who aren't close enough to get somewhere they can have one. I'm off to Planned Parenthood to make a donation.
Posted by Megan on October 2, 2009 at 6:24 am | permalink |
I confess your tweet made me uncomfortable. But that is easy as I live in Camelot some think. I thought the ABC News article did a good job and made me more comfortable. The fact is I am being perfected over time and know that will fail, so I should not be judgmental of others. Each person has unique circumstances that even a close friend or family member can not fully comprehend so we really need to let each person make their personal choices. Many of my imperfections are hidden from man but I am in no position to judge or imagine what is like to be a young woman at a meeting having a miscarriage that is ironically perceived as a blessing. Your honesty has shown to be productive in the past so I will presume it will bless some this time as well. I know some miscarriages are very sad moments for those striving to have children and I hope that for those better times also lie ahead. Good health to all.
Posted by Don on October 2, 2009 at 6:57 am | permalink |
If you have a problem with the above, then you'll probably also have one with this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/oct/02/menstruation-feminist-activists
Posted by Sinead on October 2, 2009 at 7:23 am | permalink |
Whether Penelope wants to share her personal life with the world is irrelevant to me. Her entire company was founded on the idea of leveraging her personal brand identity. That's her job.
What bothers me is that she has set herself up as a role model for young workers (Gen Y) and for workers in her own age group (Gen X). I worry that Penelope is telling young women that it's OK to behave as she does, when the truth is much more complex.
Penelope may have the leeway to blog and tweet and talk about her personal life, but the rest of us don't. I can tell you with absolute certainty that my boss and coworkers don't want to know what kind of birth control I am or am not using or how my sex life is or if I'm having a miscarriage. And my boss is a woman, as are many of my coworkers.
Penelope may try to convince you that mixing business and personal is the new model, but having worked in hierarchical businesses for years, I know the opposite is true. Oversharing personal information is what gets women labeled hysterical and emotional which could lead to loss of promotions and responsibility and to loss of income. Is that fair? No. Is it a reality? Yes.
Work is work, and home life is home life. Sometimes they encroach on each other, but making your personal life an open book at work is dangerous business. Penelope tends to oversimplify this fact.
Posted by Heather on October 2, 2009 at 7:53 am | permalink |
You're not giving enough credit to the people in Gen X & Gen Y. I'm in the Gen Y group and I admire Penelope. It's refreshing, reassuring, and a whole list of other things to see a woman who can speak her mind without even a hint of timidity or shame. I'm someone who is easily intimidated by people who don't agree with me, and this is precisely the reason I chose Penelope as a role model.
At the same time, I know how to use Penelope's advice. I know that it's not some "one size fits all" solution. I use her advice when it applies to me, which is not 100% of the time. She has figured out a way to blend her personal life with her business life. I'm self-aware enough to know that might not work for me and I'm sure other young people are smart enough for that too. When I choose role models, I don't blindly follow them.
Posted by Kam on October 2, 2009 at 9:23 am | permalink |
Amen to this, Heather – Penelope has little experience in the corporate world. When you are the (Ex) CEO, you can make up your own rules. The majority of the advice she dispenses does/will not play in an F500 company.
Posted by jim on October 2, 2009 at 10:00 am | permalink |
Heather, I totally agree with you. My older sister would share her personal details often at work, how she couldn't get child support, anything that was going on with it, if she couldn't make ends meet, etc. Guess what? She has been fired from most of her jobs.
To this day, she still can't understand that her employers want her to work and keep her personal life personal. they are not there to pay her to "talk about her issues" and find herself. I guess I am at an advantage being male as I don't need to do this at all. In fact, I quite prefer the opposite, the less they know about me, the better.
Posted by Dan on October 2, 2009 at 2:15 pm | permalink |
I'm with you, Dan. I'm female but don't believe in – and do NOT want to hear from others – any personal details. Or, let's be honest, personal crap, because that's what I think of personal details. It isn't appropriate in the business world – nor are female parts, male parts, reproduction in general, etc. It's 2009 – we should be past talking about sex and reproduction in general. So 10,000 BC.
Posted by MJ on October 2, 2009 at 3:03 pm | permalink |
Isn't it sad that so many people feel like they can't share their true selves with the people they spend the most time with (their coworkers)? That they would be treated as, and treat other people as, a piece of office equipment that exists only to produce work and has no emotions or life outside of work?
I was very touched by something Penelope wrote recently on another post: "So what Gen Y really wants is people to care about other people at work."
I WANT to know my coworkers on a personal level. Spending that much time around the same people every day and not getting to know them well enough to care about them is so alienating and depressing.
Posted by Jackie1776 on October 2, 2009 at 4:00 pm | permalink |
Very well stated…
Posted by Cherie on October 4, 2009 at 9:16 pm | permalink |
That comment was directed to Heather:-)
Posted by Cherie on October 4, 2009 at 9:19 pm | permalink |
third unwanted pregnancy? Birth control would be the responsible solution.
Posted by another woman on October 2, 2009 at 8:34 am | permalink |
You rock- nice job!
Posted by Cal on October 2, 2009 at 8:39 am | permalink |
I have never personally experienced having a miscarriage but I bet the way I handle it, would be entirely different than the woman sitting next to me.
Although this post may offend some women, I applaud you for bringing the topic out in the open in a transparent, matter of fact way. This is something we need to talk about openly both in our personal lives and also in the workplace.
I recently dealt with a personal issue at work. At first, I kept the issue to myself and just took a few days off. However, once I explained the situation to my boss, I was pleasantly surprised at how great he was about it. He treated me with respect and gave me the time I needed to get through it.
Again, thank you for having the courage to do this.
Posted by Courtney on October 2, 2009 at 8:50 am | permalink |
Congratulations! Thank you for speaking out. It is never bad to talk about what is going on in our lives. If people have a problem with what others are saying, they can simply not listen (or read, as the case may be). I don't understand what the uproar is about. Employers have a right to know why their employees will be missing work and Americans have the right to speak freely. No one should be imposing judgments on you for doing or saying what you're comfortable doing or saying.
As an adult who survived a catholic childhood, one of the most frustrating things for me is that shroud of secrecy that catholics tend to erect – which creates denial and shame. It's not healthy. While some people are more private than others, health issues are nothing to hide or be ashamed of. When people talk about what is going on in their lives, they often find support from people they never would have expected. Humans are social creatures and we don't live in a vacuum. Chances are, if you're experiencing something, at least one other person in your social circle has experienced it as well and in that person is a source of support. If you don't talk, you'll never find that person. Please… keep talking!
Posted by Sharon on October 2, 2009 at 9:08 am | permalink |
Thank you for your part in educating the ignorant morons in this world who think if they don't talk about something it doesn't happen. I also had a miscarriage and was thankful to God for it, as I was trying to figure out how to have an abortion, when at a point in time had tried for 7 years to get pregnant. I was very conflicted and God took care of me, just as he did you. Wonderful interview!
Posted by Colleen on October 2, 2009 at 9:42 am | permalink |
I think a lot of people are missing the point.
When you are pregnant, and you do not want to continue the pregnancy, and you want an abortion…
…and the only abortion you can have is 3 weeks from now…
…and you have to face the possibility of carrying this pregnancy which slowly but surely is turning from a few cells that it is right now into a fetus in a week, and then in a couple more weeks, getting beating heart, and in a couple of more weeks, getting more and more human…
… when this happens, and you know you want an abortion…
… which by the way, is totally legal!
then yes, having a miscarriage can be a relief.
(I imagine. )
Posted by ioana on October 2, 2009 at 9:46 am | permalink |
To the judgmental twits who cannot envision or even tolerate views outside of their own tiny little brains… 1) PT knows what it is like to miscarry a wanted pregnancy. So shut up that she is callous about potential life. This pregnancy was unplanned and unwanted. A miscarriage precluded her jumping through crazy hoops to have the pregnancy medically terminated. It was a "blessing" as they say.
2) Abortion is a legal right in this country. Get over it. The real crime is that people procreate who have no means or ability to support and care for their offspring, thus burdening the rest of us to deal with the poverty, drug abuse, and crime seeded by irresponsible breeding and neglectful, abusive parenting. What are the so-called "pro-lifers" doing about that? Perpetuating it, that's what. Feh.
3) PT is free to define herself as she wishes. If her work/life division is not as wide as some of us might accept or wish for ourselves, so be it. In this country we have a Constitutional right to the pursuit of happiness. Each of us has the right to define what that is, as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others to do the same, which she has not done. So pound sand.
4) If tweeting about a miscarriage during a board meeting is unconventional and makes people uncomfortable, so what? It means she is breaking down the barriers between us. She is giving voice to our commonality, men and women, all of us. People who do that sort of thing are world-changers: Rosa Parks, Dr. Martin Luther King, Sojourner Truth, Simon De Bouvoir, and on and on. Each of them refused to conform to the conventions of their time. Each of them changed the world. And we are all better off because of it. In the 90s, an unmarried black woman famous in the Boston TV news community had a child. Conservative talk radio hosts and their followers squawked that she should "do the right thing" and resign her television role during her pregnancy, that she was a terrible role model for young girls, etc. Here was a grown woman (not a child herself), educated, articulate, successful, self-supporting, humanitarian, a productive member of society. Yet she was considered a poor role model? On what planet? Those of you belittling PT for her choices are no different than those squawkers. And PT's choice to speak out instead of hiding is just as ground-breaking and courageous. I don't think we'll see a sudden trend of women all over the country announcing their abortions and miscarriages at work. But hopefully, someday we won't feel the need to hide it or be ashamed of it either. I want my children and grandchildren to live in THAT world.
One more thing. No method of birth control is 100% effective. So, for example, if you have sex once/week for two years and use a 99% effective form of birth control, statistically speaking, you will have one unintended pregnancy in that time. PT is 42 years old. Let's say that's 20 years of being sexually active. At 1x/week with a 99% effective form of b.c., that is ten unintended pregnancies. Statistically. PT has had three. Pretty good record if you ask me.
Posted by Andrea on October 2, 2009 at 9:58 am | permalink |
Andrea, abstinence works 100% of the time it has been tried.
Posted by Dan on October 2, 2009 at 2:10 pm | permalink |
Penelope as Rosa Parks or MLK – you have got to be joking! I would be ROFL if it wasn't so absurd. I am instead crying for the intelligence level of the average Penelope-worshipper. Sad.
Posted by jim on October 2, 2009 at 3:14 pm | permalink |
Thank you for doing this! People need to talk about things to get them out into the light where everyone can understand & develop educated opinions!
Posted by Tessa Rushton on October 2, 2009 at 9:58 am | permalink |
You go.
Posted by John on October 2, 2009 at 10:04 am | permalink |
"I bought into the idea that kids undermine your ability to build an amazing career. And here I am, with the amazing career." And that will get you where in the end? Might want to start planning now what to say to the two children that God gave you that you coldly rejected in exchange for $MONEY$! What a sad commentary on how low we have sunk as a society when we value money and a career over our very own offspring!
Posted by Tom on October 2, 2009 at 10:32 am | permalink |
Tom, sad thing is, she's broke as a joke, not a very successful financial manager if you ask me!
Posted by Dan on October 2, 2009 at 2:09 pm | permalink |
Thanks for the lesson on "What happens when a woman has a miscarriage". Those of us who grew up catholic boys(like your interviewer) were taught that that is a woman's private problem. There is no need for you to know and no need to find out later. This worked very well for centuries until woman joined the work force. Now, just as men should understand that Bob's going to be out of the office for his vasectomy on Friday and be walking funny on Monday, they should also take note of the more common menstrual issues and miscarriages of their female co-workers.
Abortion is a right woman have in the United States (for now, protect it if you plan on keeping it). It is wrong of each state to build barriers to federal rights, but they do. Your freedom of speech and to vote differ greatly from state to state as well. Face it, some states are more free than others.
What gets me about all this controversy is finding out where America's raw nerves are. Your earlier post touched on incest, Asperger's syndrome, divorce, relationship disfunctionality, abuse, world trade center attacks, and more. Yet, miscarriage and abortion have struck and outrage with the American public. Scary.
Posted by Mr. Misinformed about Ms. on October 2, 2009 at 10:34 am | permalink |
Um, no. Being crass and disgusting deliberatly to garner media attention struck outrage with some people. Using personal issues like miscarriage and abortion to further her career struck outrage with some people. Using a stance of "Women's Rights" to make a buck struck outrage with some people.
Posted by Miriam on October 3, 2009 at 2:54 pm | permalink |
I am so proud of you, Penelope. You did a great job on CNN, and represented me (a working woman who has had a miscarriage)quite well. I applaud your work – bringing the female experience front and center, making people consider it and talk about it. Thank You!
Posted by elisabeth a. on October 2, 2009 at 10:56 am | permalink |
Enjoy your 5 minutes. I believe you'll be getting a retraction from any, "proposal" you've received. Bask in Fame. :)
Posted by michelle on October 2, 2009 at 11:21 am | permalink |
Great job in the interview! Thank you for your brazenness.
Posted by hyk on October 2, 2009 at 11:27 am | permalink |
Penelope – you disgust me. Stop having unwanted pregnancies – take some birth contorl and/or stop sleeping with every guy who will look at you twice.
No one begrudges you the right to not want to be pregnant or be happy about it. What bothers people is the casual way you've treated a gravely important thing. There are women who have tried for years to conceive or who are unable to carry a child to full-term, and you discard as easily as throwing away a toilet paper roll.
Posted by someone on October 2, 2009 at 11:30 am | permalink |
Penelope, I think it's great that you're talking about this stuff and I hope you continue to do so.
Posted by Julie on October 2, 2009 at 11:40 am | permalink |
Mr. Misinformed wrote: "Abortion is a right woman have in the United States (for now, protect it if you plan on keeping it)."
Slavery was once a legal right in this country too, but THANKFULLY people opposed it as being morally wrong, and after states chipped away at it, it was finally overturned.
Just because something is legally permitted doesn't automatically make it morally correct to do. A group of narrow-minded, agenda driven, MALE Justices got together and decided that (mostly) other men could end the lives of unwanted human beings that are developing inside of women, by performing a "medical" procedure upon them (and making tons of $$$ in the process!)
Whatever happened to a mother's instinct to protect her offspring at all costs? Are we that intellectually poor that "out of site, out of mind" controls out thought process?
How could women have allowed men to carry out this lie against them for so many years? Medical science has clearly shown that at conception, the DNA is set for a HUMAN BEING (not a frog, cat, or zebra) and that the developmental process has begun. That former woman's egg which has now been fertilized by the male's sperm develops into a fetus, a baby, a newborn, a toddler, a young child, a teenager, a young adult, an adult, a senior citizen and then that human life ceases at some point. Abortion is an arbitrary decision to end that life at a point in its development.
Why can't our human race see that we are killing our fellow human beings? The intellectual dishonesty that must be employed to agree with, perform, undergo and promote abortion is mind-boggling!
Posted by Tom on October 2, 2009 at 11:56 am | permalink |
Weird you talk about slavery and then argue women shouldn't have any right to choose.
Why do pro-lifers always equate the option to do something with the promotion of something? Here's something they seem to forget: abortions happened way before they were legal, and if somehow they were rendered illegal again, they would continue to go on. The difference is how many mothers die while abortions are legal versus illegal. For a group so predicated on protecting life, I'm always shocked how much they propose legislation that effectively puts more humans in grave physical danger.
Posted by Noah on October 2, 2009 at 2:44 pm | permalink |
I have to admit I was somewhat taken aback when I read of your original tweet, despite having a staunch pro-choice stance. But watching your interview, where you calmly and methodically state facts about miscarriages, the unfairness of Wisconsin requiring a waiting period, and most importantly, that abortion is legal; you have put the spotlight on those issues without putting moral or emotional judgments on them. And the fact is, one would not put a moral judgment on other health crises–so why are 'women's issues' still so taboo?
Thank you. I just wish there could be more of this level of discourse about this issue in this country.
Posted by Karyn on October 2, 2009 at 12:04 pm | permalink |
Penelope, what does the farmer have to say about all of this? Hope you'll provide an update.
Posted by sue on October 2, 2009 at 12:15 pm | permalink |
Bravo, Penelope! I am so glad that someone is willing to talk about their experiences without censoring them, just to appease a cultural taboo, or specific social views. All of our experiences can be didactic if we are willing to share them, so thank you for sharing yours. I wish I was more like you, brave and brutally honest. I love your blogs! thank you thank you!
Posted by michelle on October 2, 2009 at 12:38 pm | permalink |
How does a "smart" person get accidentally pregnant THREE times? There is this thing called BIRTH CONTROL. If you use it properly, you don't have to worry about getting ANOTHER abortion. I am all for choice, but PLEASE! Don't abuse the privilege.
Posted by Ann on October 2, 2009 at 12:42 pm | permalink |
One of her reasons:
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/18/bad-career-advice-do-what-you-love/
"I am a writer, but I love sex more than I love writing. And I am not getting paid for sex. In fact, as you might imagine, my sex life is really tanking right now. But I don't sit up at night thinking, should I do writing or sex? Because career decisions are not decisions about "what do I love most?" Career decisions are about what kind of life do I want to set up for myself?"
Posted by econobiker on October 2, 2009 at 2:48 pm | permalink |
Ann, I don't agree with killing helpless babies who have no defense, especially being that my little bundle of pleasure is now four months outside her former mommy's home, but I don't think Penelope is unusual among abortionist.
When the US Supreme Court of men decided to write abortion into law, it has been used ever since, widespread, as a means of birth control. You kind of sound a bit ignorant on the matter. Shame that I am alive today because my mother is Christian and wouldn't have dreamed of killing me in 1976. Same shame that my daughter is alive when our society has said to me that just four months ago, in spite of her ability to cry and breath on her own, we could have killed her without consequence.
America is not a civilized Country.
Posted by Dan on October 2, 2009 at 2:06 pm | permalink |
Please know your facts. More than half of women who obtain abortions were using birth control
(Jones RK, Darroch JE and Henshaw SK, Contraceptive use among U.S. women having abortions in 2000–2001, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2002, 34(6):294–303.)
And if anything doesn't this just show that more women should have access to safe and affordable methods of contraception?
Posted by Ariel on October 2, 2009 at 2:37 pm | permalink |
Ann – Many, many woman get pregnant on all types of birth control. Some people are super fertile and nothing but abstinence is 100% effective. Look at the fucking labels on all of the birth control pills – ALL OF THEM. Too bad you don't understand medicine. Ahhh – the ignorant love to judge and have opinions. Too bad about the woman dying to have kids but can't because there are a lot of them out there so fertile they could get pregnant thinking about sex. You are born with you and that is that.
Posted by liz on November 19, 2009 at 11:01 pm | permalink |
Her wackiness pretty much makes more sense when you relize that Penelope Trunk (nee Adrienne GreenHeart, nee born Adrienne Roston) has aspergers, has two children (one of which has autism),has been divorced and possibly has a non-traditional coparenting deal with her ex (children stay at home while the parents rotate), and is in the business of bloggertising to get "buzz" or "eyeballs" or "clicks" about her blog/networking website/sell books, etc.
She seems to have reinvented herself several times already to take advantage of opportunities. I found her website of work on hypertext novels and reviewed it thinking "What the heck is special about a linked novel deal?" but the deal was she was one of the first to do that on the web circa 1993- 1996 so she got some geek award back then.
This post describes her version of her name hopping:
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/03/05/my-name-is-not-really-penelope/
So the key thing is that most of what she does is get people thinking and talking about subjects that would get most people run up the sexual and personal harrassment flag pole at standard companies…again, as above, for the business of bloggertising to get "buzz" or "eyeballs" or "clicks" about her blog/networking website/sell books, etc.
If you understand that you will understand why she is going off about abortion, miscarraiges, etc. even if you personally think she is full of sh*t. Many business owners/creaters are to an certain extent this way- they think they know it all and can tell you what to do…
I wonder if her next post will be about used femienine hygene product disposal problems in the workplace
See this post by IRG from 2008 to get the best response to her wacky musings I have read so far:
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/07/25/the-entrepreneurs-guide-to-a-good-divorce-settlement/#comment-158118
Posted by econobiker on October 2, 2009 at 1:40 pm | permalink |
You left out Adrienne Eisen, author of the soft porn semi(at least)autographical book Making Scenes.
Posted by JR on October 2, 2009 at 3:49 pm | permalink |
I support you 100%. Excellent approach. I appreciate your transparency so very much.
Posted by Téa on October 2, 2009 at 2:12 pm | permalink |
Thank you Penelope, for making this subject something we don't have to be ashamed to talk about. I truly admire you
Posted by Ariel on October 2, 2009 at 2:20 pm | permalink |
Shutup Ariel, you are a spoiled brat child who probably never had a loving father nor was disciplined, truly selfish and clueless.
Posted by Dan on October 5, 2009 at 5:45 pm | permalink |
I scolded you not because of your miscarriage or abortion but because you triggered an old wound in me. So I apologize. You're totally right. I was totally wrong. I am now reading Taking Charge of Your Fertility and even though I've never gotten pregnant after years of having sex (both protected and stupidly/drunkenly/desperately unprotected), I now know some women just get pregnant more easily, birth control or not.
Also, really lame of me to judge your parenting or state of mind. Not any of my business.
Good job on CNN.
Shit, your tweet made me think. Thanks.
Posted by Joselle on October 2, 2009 at 2:23 pm | permalink |
Regardless of motivation (and it is really immaterial to me what your motivation was when you tweeted the miscarriage–it's your right to tweet whatever you want), you are doing a good thing for everyone by bringing these things into our conversation. And you handled that interview brilliantly. Brava, Penelope.
Posted by Erin on October 2, 2009 at 3:10 pm | permalink |
I have to admit I haven't read all the comments…the negative ones were getting frustrating…and since everyone is entitled to their opinion…I won't say more about that….
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!…..
For all you do and write about and share. As a (relatively) young working woman I haven't experienced many of the things you blog about….and yet I feel like I can completely relate. I feel like I'm not alone in the struggles I face or will face eventually.
The most important lesson I learn…every time…and appreciate so much…is that no matter what happens…no matter how hard we work…or how hard we think we should be working…life still happens and goes on…and we shouldn't apologize for wanting to live life while also trying to be successful in a career. We also shouldn't apologize for needing or wanting to talk about our experiences. I applaud you and am very grateful I stumbled across your site a few months ago.
There was something you said in one of your blog posts that I read when "thumbing" through the archives…it has ALWAYS stuck with me. It was something about "being grateful for getting through the to-do lists…how right now may not be my dream come true….but I still get to experience life" …those words that you wrote have gotten me through many a frustrating moment and have helped put things in perspective regarding whatever issue had been bothering me at the moment.
I realize I haven't really said anything about this particular topic…no need to say anything other than Thank You…it is so refreshing to be able to hear other women's experiences. And like you said in the interview…women need to talk about their experience…if we aren't helping each other who will by talking about the things that we go through…good and bad.
Posted by Lish on October 2, 2009 at 4:06 pm | permalink |
Jim, abstinence isn't sex. Duh.
John, the point is that no one who has made a real difference in the world has taken the safe, conventional route. They are nonconformists and image-breakers. They make people clinging to the old ways uncomfortable. Like you, apparently.
Posted by Andrea on October 2, 2009 at 4:38 pm | permalink |
Make that Dan and Jim, respectively. Sorry, can't edit or remove comment.
Posted by Andrea on October 2, 2009 at 4:40 pm | permalink |
no one who has made a real difference in the world
According to whom? Spoiled brat hippies? Right. I don't think so.
Posted by Dan on October 5, 2009 at 5:46 pm | permalink |
So let's see, you've had two prior abortions, and if you hadn't had this recent miscarriage, it would have been your third abortion? Exactly how irresponsible are you? Ever heard of contraception? I don't think I've ever read about a more pathetic person in my entire life. You're a terribly sad individual.
Posted by Jim on October 2, 2009 at 5:09 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
I really admire what you did. I think you should be proud of yourself. I am so proud of you. I think you've just shown to the world that being a woman AND having common sense, strong problem-solving skills, and no-bullshit approach is totally normal. God I love you for that! Thank you for doing this. Let's keep on normalizing women who can make their own decisions and not be ashamed of it. Bravo bravo bravo!!!
Posted by M.T. on October 2, 2009 at 5:53 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
I haven't read through the other comments, don't know what sort of response you've gotten but here's what I want to say:
- that guy was an absolute prick – this re-affirms my decision to not watch CNN.
- reproductive rights are always under threat, everywhere. except perhaps Sweden. Go Sweden.
- I don't agree with all the viewpoints you have expressed in the time I've been reading your blog, but you doing that interview is one of the bravest things I have ever seen and I admire you wholeheartedly for it. people like you give me the courage to stand up for my beliefs no matter the ridicule, criticism or consequences. You are amazing for doing this, and you should be tremendously proud of yourself.
All the best. I hope you are not in any pain.
Posted by A_Singh on October 2, 2009 at 7:30 pm | permalink |
How refreshingly real. Everyone with their stupid opinions, its only fear,
no one is different, just different perspective. You go girl! I wish I had your balls to speak of the things I have endured…one day. write on…
Posted by Athena on October 2, 2009 at 9:24 pm | permalink |
A lot of men are writing comments with their egotistical dicks instead of their fingers. Shame. They have no idea, and never will because they DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE PREGNANT–regardless of how it unfolds.
Posted by msl on October 2, 2009 at 9:51 pm | permalink |
I'm less confused that you went on CNN to talk about a miscarriage than I am that you don't know what birth control is. Even after 2 previous abortions. If you're so concerned about your company, position, and inconvenience of going to Chicago, then use some condoms. Get on birth control. Use a diaphragm. Seriously, Penelope! I was more responsible at 15 years old than you are at 42…
Posted by susan on October 2, 2009 at 10:03 pm | permalink |
I admire what you did and the way you conducted yourself during that interview. Good for you! Please keep speaking about your experiences and advocating for those who aren't able to speak for themselves.
Posted by Julia on October 2, 2009 at 10:12 pm | permalink |
Interesting. I am not sure either one clearly articulated their points. Also, it was strange watching Sanchez in this role as he is usually a flaming lib. What I think he was getting at was what I noticed as well; the casualness of the discussion of going to get an abortion, as if it was like getting a bikini wax. Frankly, I do not care what choice someone makes as long as I do not have to pay for it. But the casual nature of ending what many think is a human life because it is a nuisance is clearly what is making people uncomfortable.
As to the waiting period in WI, I am reminded of the waiting period to buy guns. How is something a Constitutional Right yet can be abridged? In any event, if you do not like PT's tweets, stop following her. I find nuggets of info on this site occasionally but more importantly, I am entertained watching a successful career crash into a chaotic personal life.
Posted by The Opinionator on October 2, 2009 at 10:52 pm | permalink |
I think that whether you agree with a woman's right to an abortion or not, some would at least agree that getting an early abortion rather than a later one is preferred. It is one thing for a "day to think it over" or something, however that assumes you have readied access to medical care, which was not available. However, to wait 3 weeks is crazy and could potential(though not necessarily) add more risk to the woman by having the pregnancy continue those 3 additional weeks. It is definitely different from having to wait 3 weeks to buy a gun.
Posted by Erin on October 8, 2009 at 3:56 am | permalink |
Erin,
The point I was making was that neither activity, if found to be Constitutional, should be subject to the limitations of a waiting period. Either you have the Right or you do not. And it should not be subject to the whims of what some groups like or dislike. From your tone, it appears that you are fine with a waiting period to buy a gun, which is a Right actually in the Constitution, but not with one for an abortion. I guess it depends upon whose ox is being gored, eh?
Posted by The Opinionator on October 10, 2009 at 11:57 pm | permalink |
Can I just say, you're awesome. You made that guy look like a blubbering fool because he had no idea what he was talking about. And he was trying to make you look insensitive and it backfired. I love that you are opening up this topic of conversation and I also love all the reactions. Fascinating. Good for you.
Posted by Carrie on October 2, 2009 at 11:01 pm | permalink |
THANK YOU for your honesty, Penelope. Thank you for sparking an important conversation.
Posted by M on October 2, 2009 at 11:48 pm | permalink |
I think that poor child quit before the all-loving Penelope could fire it. He/she must have been around long enough to know what a horrible mother Penelope is. I say "is" because, I wonder how Penelope will explain to her children who luckily "survived" her abortion/relief at miscarriage, just why she let them live. Does she toss a coin?
Posted by Claire on October 3, 2009 at 1:32 am | permalink |
Great job with the interview, Penelope. Very impressive.
He was so one-sided – we might think he was just doing his job because, unfortunately most people in this world think like him (or the drafted questions). And the media selfishly entertains such people and attitude.
I thoroughly enjoy reading your blog, please keep it up.
-K
Posted by Kavitha on October 3, 2009 at 1:41 am | permalink |
Unbelievably selfish.
And Kavitha's comment is dumb.
Posted by Trott Felipe on October 3, 2009 at 2:12 am | permalink |
After reading your blog i realized that you have been through a lot in life.All struggle , pain , sacrifices you have done in your life is totally a lesson worth learning .
The hardwork has really made what you are today in life .That is successful.
Posted by Nathan Watchorn on October 3, 2009 at 4:34 am | permalink |
I love you Penelope. You are an inspiration to me and i always love your advise and try to follow your wisdom.
I think you have a strong and valid point with this whole debacle and society should back off.
You have showed me that it is very liberating and empowering to be a woman. I am proud of our sexes. Thank you.
Posted by Noririn on October 3, 2009 at 8:54 am | permalink |
I am suppose to believe you have anything of value to say when you are not even responsible enough to use a birth control method? Thank the stars that the pregnancy ended you would make a horrible mother!
Posted by terri on October 3, 2009 at 9:39 am | permalink |
I'll admit that I was under the impression that miscarriage was a one-time, painful "moment" event. It's amazing what you can learn from others.
Posted by Jeremiah on October 3, 2009 at 11:23 am | permalink |
Clearly, people need to understand their reproductive organs and the effectiveness of contraceptives. I'd be one of them; I had no idea miscarriages took that much time. I was aware of how difficult it can be to get an abortion in some states.
The comments on this blog are nearly always at least as entertaining as the blog itself. I'm especially amused by the venom of a few chronic commentors; I wonder why you'd spend so much time and invest so much energy spewing your contempt when you could be enjoying those beautiful children gifted to you by your god.
Penelope, your hair does look great in that interview. Whether you've done it for attention or money or fame, you've still raised awareness about what happens during a miscarriage and the roadblocks women face when trying to get a legal abortion. For that, I thank you.
Posted by rainie on October 3, 2009 at 11:38 am | permalink |
Penelope – wow – you made the front cover of the Wisconsin State Journal. I have to wonder how a 42 year old woman with two children could have three unplanned pregnancies. I would hope by now you have figured out how to prevent it.
Posted by Kathryn on October 3, 2009 at 11:55 am | permalink |
Years ago a dear friend confided that she had had a miscarriage at work. I had no idea of what she was going through at the time. Did not really know what a miscarriage was like. She and I were co-workers sitting just a few feet away from each other. We had lunch together often. And yet, the "taboo" of discussing miscarriage kept me from having the opportunity to offer help or a shoulder to lean on. To be a real friend in a difficult time. Only after time had passed and she had a much-awaited healthy baby, could she tell me what she had endured. Keep up the good work, Penelope!
Posted by Barbara on October 3, 2009 at 12:42 pm | permalink |
I have never seen Rick Sanchez in action before, but I have to say that he is a dolt! What a horrible interviewer. I see the point of your original post anmd am sorry that people are so judgemental to be completely unable to understand your intentions.
Posted by Debbie on October 3, 2009 at 12:45 pm | permalink |
This is just exhibitionism. And like most exhibitionists, PT enjoys the negative attention as much as the positive recognition. What would upset her more than the finger pointing moralism would be if there were just 7 comments on this post.
Posted by Doug on October 3, 2009 at 1:10 pm | permalink |
It is a good thing you are available to add to them then.
Posted by Erin on October 8, 2009 at 3:59 am | permalink |
As a society, we've moved to the point where people can talk about/take time off for depression related to miscarriage and blog/Facebook about pregnancy loss, infertility, etc. Now, if people object to all of that as TMI, fine, at least they're being consistent. But it seems to me a lot of the objection to Ms. Truck is based solely on the fact that she had the nerve to feel happy/relieved about her miscarriage.
I've been fortunate enough to never have to deal with an unwanted pregnancy, but I know women who have, including 3 who miscarried. One of those was unwanted because of finances (they already had one child and were struggling financially) and two were unwanted because they were caused by rapes (an ex-boyfriend in one case and a boy friend who became an ex after the rape).
All 3 of them told me they were relieved when they miscarried because they were planning to abort. All 3 were afraid to tell people how they felt. The one with finanical issues miscarried at work and she felt like she had to pretend to be sad because otherwise people would think she was a monster or a freak.
I know women who have been heartbroken over a miscarriage as well. Every pregnancy and circumstance is different. So it follows, quite logically, that every reaction to the loss is going to be different. We're slowly starting to get past the stupidity of telling a heartbroken woman she shouldn't be feeling grief, I think we should do the same for those who feel relief.
Posted by anon on October 3, 2009 at 1:42 pm | permalink |
PT, I love that you left the interviewer in the hot seat and made him ask the questions he was so uncomfortable asking instead of cowering to his position and sounding defensive in your answers. And, you did a great job of leveraging his questions so you could advance your messages: (1) miscarriages are a (sad, but) normal part of life and work happens during life, and (2) in our country, women have the right (not the obligation) to get an abortion, so it's silly that some states mount obstacles that interfere with that right.
Nice interview, PT!
Cheerios, Kathleen
Posted by Kathleen on October 3, 2009 at 2:19 pm | permalink |
To those of you condemning her for not using birth control, was that mentioned during the interview? I haven't seen any reference to contraception in the articles I've read, one way or the other. Getting pregnant doesn't mean people aren't using contraception. Birth control methods sometimes fail or aren't used properly.
Posted by anon on October 3, 2009 at 2:20 pm | permalink |
Factually, do you know of anyone whose contraceptive methods failed to the extent of three unwanted pregnancies?
S
Posted by Claire on October 3, 2009 at 5:26 pm | permalink |
I have personally known people who have had condoms and/or diaphragms fail 3+ times. For many birth control methods (and especially barrier methods), the failure rate from TYPICAL use tends to be much higher than the published failure rates from perfect use. Lots of people put condoms/diaphragms on/in wrong, or they slip out of place. But there aren't a lot of other options for women who can't tolerate hormonal birth control (and copper-only IUDs often have debilitating side effects).
Posted by Jackie1776 on October 4, 2009 at 1:00 am | permalink |
@Jackie
I hear you. I am one of those women who cannot use hormonal birth control. And I have had a pregnancy due to a condom failure which I aborted.
I would love to get my tubes tied, but finding a doctor who will agree to perform that procedure is not as easy as the Pro-life "just get your tubes tied already you dirty slut" crowd seems to think it is.
Hm. Maybe they ought to use some of their energy toward lobbying to make it easier for women to elective sterilizations?
Posted by Kari on October 6, 2009 at 6:58 am | permalink |
I just take issue with the "75% of women have miscarriages". I don't think that is an accurate number. Personally, I would never post something as intimate as a miscarriage. But this whole blogging, reality tv, 'I want my 15 min. of fame' culture we live in just makes me sad.
Posted by Jilly on October 3, 2009 at 4:51 pm | permalink |
But, I do think that Penelope is brave to bring this out, I could never do it. I'd just go under my covers and cry for days. What really is sad is reading all these hateful comments. I love your blog and I'll keep reading.
Posted by Jilly on October 3, 2009 at 4:56 pm | permalink |
Jilly,
The reason you would go under your covers and cry for days is what makes you first a woman, and second a human being. I totally get the fact that women are at risk for unwanted pregnancies no matter how careful they are. But three times?
I also understand that a child presented to a psuedo-sucessful person with a tentative relationship with a farmer might not be wanted. I think the farmer wants her even less than she wants their potential child. Where is he in this mess?
I truly fear for the kids you decided not to abort.
Posted by Claire on October 3, 2009 at 5:21 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
Thanks for the excellent job you did with that interview, staying calm and reasonable, not taking the bait. (I'm wondering if the Asberger's is partly to credit for that,, allowing you to be objective when under attack. I could never have been so articulate and calm as you were.)
I well remember the relief my mother felt in 1958 when she had a miscarriage, back before abortion was legal. We women have kept so much of our biology under wraps – miscarriage, abortion, menopause. I'm so glad to see the light of day putting focus on our secret lives, thanks to courageous women like you.
Posted by Ev on October 3, 2009 at 6:14 pm | permalink |
My dream ticket for 2012: Palin/Trunk
Let's go to hell in a hurry since we're going there…
Posted by Neville on October 3, 2009 at 7:38 pm | permalink |
I still can't figure out how CNN knows what Penelope tweeted…
And, when we say she sent it to her co-workers was that 100 people or 5 of her colleagues?
Last thing I wanna say – I totally cringe when he was trying to ask her about the actual miscarriage. Yipes!
Posted by J on October 3, 2009 at 9:10 pm | permalink |
How can you be proud of losing a possible child? Be careful if you don't want any more children. Maybe the farmer needs to leave more bite marks on your thighs. My sympathy lies with the children you have. If they see any of this commentary, how can they ever feel wanted? You are a mess, Penelope, and I suggest you go get sterilized, and to the farmer….RUN
Sorry I am giving you more attention than you deserve.
Posted by Claire on October 3, 2009 at 9:44 pm | permalink |
You should be TOTALLY ashamed of yourself!!! You shouldn't even have the right to call yourself a "mother". Whether the tweet was real or not. You sound disturbed, narcississtic, and in need of some MAJOR psychotherapy.
ABORTION = MURDER
PROCHOICERS = PROMURDERERS
THAT SIMPLE!!!
If you don't want kids, keep your legs shut. Sew your vagina shut. Use birth control. Go lesbian.
And get rid of your friggin b*tch-ass god complex.
Posted by PRO-LIFER on October 3, 2009 at 9:48 pm | permalink |
Hey, Pro-Lifer,
Agreed that Ms. Trunk is wacky.
A deeper question for you is: How many special-needs or older children have you adopted? All pro-life people adopt special needs and older children, right? Or do pro-life people just want to push their morals on other people and make those people raise their own children?
Just asking.
Posted by econobiker on October 5, 2009 at 10:24 am | permalink |
I've realized that although I disagree with many of your views, I have so much respect for what you said on TV. Thanks for conveying a message that so many of us are afraid to do.
Posted by Jane on October 4, 2009 at 1:45 am | permalink |
Hey Penelope, right on. It's not too much information, not in this day and age. It furthers the conversation about women's right to control what happens to their body (and keep working through it). Bravo.
Eilene
Posted by Eilene Zimmerman on October 4, 2009 at 12:26 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
Congrats on a great interview. You really put John Sanchez in his place without being strident about it—but assertive and informative.
Posted by Leslie on October 4, 2009 at 2:38 pm | permalink |
I love you for this. Go, Penelope.
Posted by Sheryl on October 4, 2009 at 4:11 pm | permalink |
penelope trunk…you are a TERRIBLE person. to even imagine that this would be so simple and unimportant to just simply twitter about? are you mental? possibly off your meds? God have mercy on a soul who would abort a precious soul that he gifts to you as well…awful. I can only pray that you are the LAST person people come to see for career advice. Lets just say that you'll be very derserving of your fate…
Posted by Tiffany on October 4, 2009 at 5:38 pm | permalink |
You are not a terrible person. You are an honest person. You are doing your best to be your best person and that is more than many can say for themselves. Don't let what people say hurt you. Honesty is a good thing, a very good thing!
Posted by Nancy on October 4, 2009 at 6:45 pm | permalink |
1.If that is an example of a good hair day, she needs a new stylist immediately, if not sooner.
2. As CEO, (or in any position, but certainly CEO) you have personal time off and sick days. It is not mandatory to give the raw details of your problem, politely excuse yourself. "I need a couple days off for a personal matter" works everytime, if they trust you.
3. The female experience can include many horrifying details of ones vagina, however tactful females don't feel the need to advertise every yeast infection, Herpes outbreak, etc. The female experience also includes pride, decency, and respect for herself and others. None of this is evident in this woman's "experience."
4. She mentions feeling bad about a previous miscarriage, what about our responsibility to each other as women, sharing life experiences? How can she think that a woman who may be going through a similiar ordeal and feeling horrible about it might read that and feel worse?
5. What in the world is she going to tellthe poor children she did decide "made the cut" when they are inevitably faced with this?
6. This woman should not be doling out advice to anyone, let alone getting paid to do so.
7. Perhaps someone should show her a public service announcement about birth control methods
Posted by Sam on October 4, 2009 at 6:51 pm | permalink |
Sam,
I could not agree with you more. Penelope sacrifies all human dignity and emotion for attention. It is possible, of course, that she is not capable of dignity or emotion. The only realistic forum for her brand of "motherhod" would be the Jerry Springer show.
Oh wait…that show was cancelled because nobody wanted to watch…it was just too embarassing.
Let's all ignore this woman…maybe the kids she did allow to survive might get some attention.
Posted by Claire on October 4, 2009 at 8:42 pm | permalink |
You all forget that she has asperger's which tends to make her emotions different than others. That said, she still revealed more than needed in pursuit of bloggertising…
Posted by econobiker on October 5, 2009 at 10:21 am | permalink |
You are having sex with men that will not marry you and do not want to have a child with you. Take a good long look in the mirror and see if you can find any love for yourself at all. You allow others to use you and then in turn you commit the ultimate child abuse. You are doing more for the Pro-Life cause then you'll ever know. Start asking advice and quit giving it. (P.S. Slavery was also legal at one time.)
"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so you may live as you wish." – Mother Teresa
Posted by Linda Chastity on October 4, 2009 at 7:41 pm | permalink |
This interview was an incredibly eye-opening lesson for men and women on blending work and personal life, and not having to apologise simply for being a woman.
I feel relief and have a little more faith in humankind to see some incredibly positive and encouraging comments in amongst all the usual to-be-expected vitriol too.
What strikes me is that it's not considered as shocking when you blog about almost dying in a horribly violent way, starving yourself or being abused… but one of the most common and everyday female experiences has a CNN presenter flapping about like a goldfish :D (You made him look SO dumb, I thought that was hilarious :) ) More power to your elbow, PT.
Posted by sd on October 4, 2009 at 8:49 pm | permalink |
I can't stand listening to Rick Sanchez.
Posted by Michael on October 4, 2009 at 9:24 pm | permalink |
Penelope, do you ever halt comments on a thread? This one seems to have run its course. Seriously.
Posted by Andrea on October 4, 2009 at 11:00 pm | permalink |
I have to say that I'm sorry about your unintended pregnancy and whether you intended to have an abortion or were so unfortunate to have a miscarriage is certainly your own business. If the end result is what you hoped for, then that is good for you.
My only complaint about any of this is that it somehow became my business (which it really isn't) due to social networking or the result of social networking. But here I am – face to face with your life and I don't even know you. So what I really wish is that you'd chosen to share the details of your miscarriage personally with true friends who cared greatly for you, that you hadn't created this media storm about it…and that somehow you would find peace in your own life with all that has occurred these past few weeks.
I have many people in my life that need my time and attention and I'm sorry for them that I've somehow become distracted by your issues. But none-the-less, I don't think you couldn't benefit by my sending you healing white light and a hope that – in the future – you are able to show greater restraint in sharing the most intimate details of your life with the entire world.
Posted by Vicki on October 4, 2009 at 11:22 pm | permalink |
You gave me a goal for tomorrow!!!! I'm starting a petition to get you fired or AT least get you de-promoted.
Posted by PRO-LIFER on October 4, 2009 at 11:37 pm | permalink |
PRO-LIFER – grow up and get a life of your own – I assume Penelope already has hers, as do the rest of us. You need to find a better goal for yourself.
Posted by Vicki on October 4, 2009 at 11:44 pm | permalink |
At least you were allowed to "get a life"
Posted by Linda Chastity on October 5, 2009 at 6:45 am | permalink |
I am just wondering if you would act so cavalier about the death of one of your children. I am assuming yes, because essentially that is what a miscarriage is, the death of a child. I am disgusted over that lack of significance that you place on human life and hope that your children have some well adjusted adults in their lives so that that don't grow up to be as lacking in compassion as you are. I am further appalled that you would be so insensitive about the topic of abortion and miscarriage. Infertility seems to be on the rise, and some women that want desperately to be a mother never have that opportunity. I don't know what has happened in your life for you to be so cold and insensitive, but I hope that it is not some sort of genetic malfunction that will carry over to your children because God knows that we don't need anymore people like you in the world.
Posted by Stacy on October 5, 2009 at 12:29 am | permalink |
So, "Stacy", you think honesty is cold and insensitive. She did not tweet about your miscarriage or abortion. Frankly, true compassion means full honesty and no denial and that is a tough pill for people like you to swallow. She wasn't insensitive but blunt. Our country is full of idiots because nothing is safe to discuss honestly and bluntly. You must love Palin too even though she is a liar and takes that poor baby with Down's Syndrome to big loud events and anyone with education knows that such babies like quiet! What is your excuse? Perhaps people like you should check yourself before you spew venom at others.
Posted by liz on November 19, 2009 at 10:57 pm | permalink |
Wow! Thanks, Pen. Most men have no idea what a miscarriage involves; thanks for educating.
And yes, abortion is still a right in this country, whether or not people want to admit it.
Good job in asking the interviewer to clarify his question, and then keeping the focus on the facts.
Roaches thrive in the dark, but run from the light.
Posted by Jay on October 5, 2009 at 1:50 am | permalink |
There is nothing remarkable about this woman, she is got issues and has no morals. Modern woman??? What is so modern about talking about DEATH soo lightly?? I didn't realize that being a modern woman meant being TRASH. A Modern woman is still feminine, physically and emotionally strong, confident, humble…. Being a Modern woman does not mean being callus and ignorant. So what if you believe in Abortion, I could give a flying f…k! Keep that shit to yourself and stop acting like it's a casual thing. You act like it to make yourself feel better. Teaching young people to not give a shit about serious decisions such as abortion is f'd up!. Regardless of what anyones beliefs are, this twat doesn't deserve any exposure… Im not raising my daughter to be a selfless, self centered bitch, im raising her to strong all the way around and understand morality. Sooo sick of extreme people. Be extreme in training, sports, in whatever you want to accomplish in life.. but having the attitude, hey shit happens is life towards a subject that should not be taken lightly is simply ignorance. I hope she gets the boot. She needs to have her ass kicked, put her in the ring with Cyborg! hah!
Posted by marsha gutierrez on October 5, 2009 at 4:57 am | permalink |
I'm coming late to the comment thread, but I just wanted to throw another one onto the stack of supportive responses, particularly in the face of the vicious & vitriolic comments that a few people seem to post over and over again.
The interviewer's utter ignorance of miscarriage (both its prevalence and what's involved) proved your point more strongly than anything else — there are so many women's issues that would be treated differently by voters, legislators, co-workers, friends, etc. if only a little more light were shed on them… kudos to you for trying to do that in spite of the cost (see all of the nasty comments above, and of course whatever other blowback you get…).
Posted by Rob Whelan on October 5, 2009 at 8:20 am | permalink |
Rob Whelan – I think you're seriously deluding yourself when you say "a few people" who seem to post over and over. I think you need to take a look at why you need to say that…and then be honest that this "woman" has crossed a line that in my opinion, has changed the way that people will (good OR bad) look at her for the rest of her life. I know that you all think she's so cavalier. In secret, I bet she wishes she had never even gone where she went. But she did. And there's LOTS of people who don't like it. LOTS. :)
Posted by Donna on October 5, 2009 at 12:38 pm | permalink |
Rob Whelan – I think you're seriously deluding yourself when you say a "few people". I think you need to take a look at why you're saying that…and then come to the conclusion that this "woman" has crossed a line that will (for good OR bad) change the way people feel about her for the rest of her life.
I know that many of you think she's so cavalier. Secretly, I bet she wishes she hadn't even gone where she went. But she did. And there's LOTS of people who don't like it. LOTS. :)
Posted by Donna on October 5, 2009 at 12:41 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
I'm so glad I left work early. Saw you with Rick Sanchez. He was definetly trying to trip you up and he kept interupting you in mid-sentence. Great job. The delay seemed frustrating.
Keep it going.
RAS
Posted by Ron on October 5, 2009 at 1:34 pm | permalink |
Penelope – I believe you are doing a great thing by bringing these topics out in the air to be discussed. Thank you. I think there are many ways to interpret the uproar that's resulted, but it's hard to believe it's not related to many people's discomfort in these things being discussed out loud.
Posted by Susan on October 5, 2009 at 3:01 pm | permalink |
Wow some people are really uncomfortable with woman's reproductive rights! Bravo Penelope for reminding the world that women and not the state should decide what they do with their bodies.
Posted by brenda on October 5, 2009 at 3:01 pm | permalink |
Please don't assume your view speaks for all women. There is also a large group of women that believe abortion is murder and also believes abortion has further degraded women and their rights. I am not in the least bit uncomfortable in talking about or hearing talk about reproduction, abortion or miscarriage. However, don't assume a woman cannot be for the rights of women and still believe abortion is murder. For those who look at this as an issue of women vs. men, winning vs. losing (Penelope vs.Rick)you are completely missing the point. Some of those most outspoken regarding abortion "rights" have not dealt with the shame associated with their own abortions and want to rationalize their "choice".
Posted by Rita on October 5, 2009 at 4:18 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
I agree with your comments on an earlier post "The female experience is part of work. What we talk about when we talk about work defines how we integrate work into our lives." And I don't think that just applies to females, but to people in general. I have no problem with being open and appreciate it in others (on most topics at least).
I think you handled yourself well on the interview and I appreciated your comments. The only thing that struck me differently from your part of the interview was what to me came across as an inability to understand the negative reaction your comment evoked in some (or perhaps you were just acting that way to make a point and not take the interviewer's bait?).
I think being surprised or confused (if indeed you were) over the reaction you received for tweeting something many consider very personal, private, and controversial ("controversial" refers to the abortion part, not the miscarriage) seems a bit naive. Although I don't at all share the feelings of schock, disgust, anger, discomfort, etc. that your tweet brought out in some, I definitely see the potential for others to feel that way. While the degree of interest in your comment (on tv, etc) is something I would necessarily have predicted, the type of response you got (both supportive and critical) is exactly what I'd have expected.
Though my view on this may not be popular (not sure as there's no way I could reall through all these comments), I do appreciate your openness in general and agree that talking openly about things that often are hush-hush in society can be valuable. Keep at it!
Posted by m on October 5, 2009 at 3:04 pm | permalink |
I guess part of what I was trying to get across (but maybe didn't succeed at conveying) in my previous comment is that I do understand and respect (not just expect to encounter, as my last post conveyed) opinions on this topic that differ from mine. I think as long as people express their views in a respectful manner there's room for all types of viewpoints. I think discussing differing views is productive but that ad hominem and other fallacy-based attacks are not.
Posted by m on October 5, 2009 at 3:19 pm | permalink |
I congradulate marsha gutierrez for her comment (not so much for the cursing), and about cyborg. Her MMA fight was pretty bad ass.
Would I or have I ever adopted a child or a child with special needs? No.
But I have always wanted to,it feels like something I should do before I get to old.
I'm 19, married (I was married before I ever got pregnant FYI), have a 20 month old daughter, and I'm due October 22nd. So I'm in no position to adopt right now.
When I was pregnant with my first child, I was told that I should abort, because I have an underdeveloped uterus, and I could've wound up crushing her.
But I switched to a prolife doctor, and had a c-section 2 weeks before my due date.
Honestly, I equivalate an abortion, of an unwanted pregnancy to this:
"What if you're mom didn't want you or couldn't afford you, took you into the yard, and shot/beat/stabbed you to death?"
What's the difference between that and abortion/ or a happy miscarriage?
What's the difference in taking a person to court for killing a pregnant woman and charging them with double homicide, but a woman kills an unwanted baby by abortion/reluctant miscarriage and it's "legal"?
NOTHING!!!!! There is NO difference!!!!
Posted by PRO-LIFER on October 5, 2009 at 4:32 pm | permalink |
Well, "Posted by Donna" shows up 8 times on this page. "Posted by Dan" gets 12 hits. "John" posts a lot as well, though there's clearly more than one John.
What's particularly odd to me is the series of posts by posters with different names who nevertheless have exactly the same writing style all "agreeing absolutely" with each other. Penelope should show IP addresses after comments… I have a suspicion that'd flush out a sock puppets or two.
Which isn't to say that there *aren't* plenty of people who are "outraged" that anyone could talk so openly of these kinds of "shameful" issues — it's sad, but there's no shortage of them — that's why I mentioned the costs of this kind of open speech in my first comment. And fortunately, these views are largely fueled by ignorance, which is why it's so important to talk about these issues… and we come full circle.
Finally, I notice none of you are using your real names. Don't you stand behind your comments? Or are you perfectly aware you're violating your own moral rules, but you can't resist the urge to be nasty when you're anonymous?
Posted by Rob Whelan on October 5, 2009 at 5:19 pm | permalink |
You looked and sounded like a self-promoting ass. Like several others, you hide behind promoting the health and welfare of women for your own personal gain. You are too smart to do that…you didn't help women you knocked us down. Thanks.
Posted by Maureen on October 5, 2009 at 5:23 pm | permalink |
It sickens me, how these people support you. Not only are YOU disgusting, but their twice as disgusting for supporting you!!!
You are a murderer plain and simple. It's like you're what these people would define as a serial killer (you are you had multiple abortions, which makes you a serial killer). And these degraded and diluted people are giving you admiration and appraisal.
It's no different than them writing love letters to Charles Manson or Ted Bundy.
I'm deeming you as 'Killer Trunk' the 'Serial Killer.'
Whether you truly have Aspergers or not, that is not an excuse , you knew you were killing an innocent life everytime you got an abortion, you knew that an innocent life died when you miscarried.
Instead of mourning the loss of that life and respecting it. You degraded that would be child, and practically spat in it's face.
Posted by PRO-LIFER on October 5, 2009 at 5:26 pm | permalink |
You are a Man. You absolutely are.
Posted by Nurse on October 5, 2009 at 10:18 pm | permalink |
Alright then, my name is Destiny Gonzalez. I have a prolife myspace page myspace.com/children_are_love
Posted by PRO-LIFER on October 5, 2009 at 5:30 pm | permalink |
Destiny, thanks for using your name, though of course the most offensive comments are still from anonymous cowards.
I'd suggest to you to read more about what people who are pro-choice actually believe, and why, if you want to convince any of them to change their minds. Some pro-choice people are personally anti-abortion (in that they would keep even an unplanned pregnancy… but they don't believe the government should force all women to do so; do you understand why?). The line any chooses as the "beginning of human life" is also not cut & dry — in reality, human life is a process with fuzzy boundaries.
If you don't know the metaphor of the "attached violinist", go find it; if you don't know any statistics about the *reasons* that late-term abortions happen, find out; this is the actual debate. You don't have to agree, but you should at least comprehend. Shouting "baby-killer" doesn't get you anywhere beyond looking like just another religious zealot.
[and I'm done here... can't imagine i'm accomplishing much anyway]
Posted by Rob Whelan on October 5, 2009 at 6:56 pm | permalink |
I personally will not use my real name because I have dealt with men like you proclaiming to care about women and their rights but you operate with smoke and screens. How much money have you made off or contributed towards abortions? You seem to think you are so much brighter than everyone posting here. You assume no one has researched your side of the issue, but you're "done here" because you know deep down you (and Penelope) are wrong and will not be able to change the minds of people who have thought the issues ALL THE WAY THROUGH. Women, please support each other in life-affirming decisions and don't find more ways to become destructive to self and others. Open your eyes to how we are being deceived. Children are the best gifts in this world–Aspergers and otherwise–Penelope what if there would ever be a test available to see if people were pregnant with a child with Aspergers and it became law to abort these fetuses? Is your life worth less than mine? Are the children you aborted worth less than the ones you gave birth to? Wolves prey on the young. Wolves prey on the weak and the disabled. Wolves do not have free will–we do.
Posted by Rita on October 5, 2009 at 10:16 pm | permalink |
This blog is like watching a train wreck about to happen. Truly pathetic, but you have to watch, never the less.
"Well, if you feel like killing your baby, and "bravo for making the easiest and most selfish choice in honor of women." If any of you pro abortionist show up at my door, I will call the police in fear of my four month old infant daughter's life! My God, you people are cruel.
Posted by Dan on October 5, 2009 at 5:49 pm | permalink |
You seriously think you look good. OMG. Look at yourself in the mirror honey. You look like crap! I am a woman and I can tell you, If I looked like you did I would have some serious surgery. You are pathetic for saying this. Your so called "good looks" aren't getting you anywhere. Your child has gone and now you have no remorse. Keep spreading your skanky legs. You are getting nowhere. One day your "looks" will be expired sweetie and you will still be a bi**h. Get over yourself and get a makeover ugly whore. I hate you CNN bitches all you do is whine and don't want responsibility. Fuck you skank
Posted by Bettypage on October 5, 2009 at 6:40 pm | permalink |
Dan – there is clearly enough cruelty to go around – and btw in response to you from a few days ago – you need to turn up your sarcasm meter.
I think the truly sad thing here – is that there are people who actually believe that you are successful and should take your CAREER advice – I get that you're out there and you want to post personal details – alrighty, it's a free country, knock yourself out. But you really should post a disclaimer that one is in danger of destroying any hope they have for a real career if they take your advice.
Posted by Sara on October 5, 2009 at 7:19 pm | permalink |
This is my first visit to your blog.
I'm sorry for you.
Sorry that you had to deal with the apparent disregard for women's rights in Wisconsin.
I know that I would not have put out this information about myself like you did. It would be my choice to not tweet or blog about a miscarriage. But that is the point, or one of them anyway, choice?
I look forward to returning here frequently and having my brain exercised by thoughtful and challenging commentary – I wish I knew about you a long time ago.
Posted by Bleu on October 5, 2009 at 8:35 pm | permalink |
BRAVO, Penelope!
I was flabbergasted by both the "shock & outrage" to your Twitter, & also by the CNN interview I saw, where the male interviewer just couldn't get over that you spoke publically about "things like…miscarriages, abortion, periods, etc." Your answer was aboslutely perfect! 75% of women have miscarriages, pregnancies, 100% have periods, etc. etc. – yet NO public media, institution, system, etc. – even considers women's experience, let alone understands it. You are fabulous & I applaud you!!
Posted by Canadian Nurse on October 5, 2009 at 10:15 pm | permalink |
Penelope, I have no idea if you're doing this for publicity or not. But I have to say that you said some really wonderful things in that CNN interview. It's ridiculous how uncomfortable women are made to feel about our bodies, and you're right–why should we be afraid to talk about abortions and miscarriages? People need to get over their own instinctive reactions to these things.
Also, Rick Sanchez came off as a real ass. He makes me glad I don't have a TV. Maybe you were flattered by the "young lady" comment? But you're probably too young for that, and anyway it's not appropriate for a woman of any age. He's an idiot.
Posted by imelda on October 5, 2009 at 10:16 pm | permalink |
You are a disgusting person. It's gonna be hot when you go there you know?
Posted by Anita B on October 5, 2009 at 10:33 pm | permalink |
Its going to be hot where – the Bahamas?
Christian fairy tales of heaven and hell really make me laugh.
Posted by astra on October 6, 2009 at 1:46 pm | permalink |
It's not only dumb guys like him that misunderstand miscarriages. I'm a 23 year old woman and didn't know that a miscarriage lasted weeks. I thought it was a traumatic experience, similar to birth, just like the newscaster did. If women's health was discussed more openly, such misconceptions wouldn't exist. It's disappointing to realize that there are still parts of my life I'm expected to hide, decades after feminism.
Posted by Kate on October 6, 2009 at 12:10 am | permalink |
"I WAS GANG-RAPED ON THE SUBWAY!!"
–Just a suggestion for your next column/tweet.
Posted by Bob M on October 6, 2009 at 12:18 am | permalink |
It's excellent that you've put your neck out to talk about these things. I think it's horrible that women all over the world, especially a place like the USA (which constantly claims things like "land of the free"), have their womanhood locked up in a cloister of shame, and are unable to express their views or even learn from other women in many cases. By expressing yourself publicly you've opened the floodgates for understanding – similar events have taken place in the past with other subjects which were once considered "impolite" or "amoral" to even talk about.
I understand why you did not answer the question regarding whether you would give advice to talk about these things to your clients – for one, it's not productive to their career, but also, it takes a strong person to speak out in this regard.
I think anyone who says that this is simply a PR stunt is secretly afraid of a free spoken and enlightened society, and will look for the first thing they can think of to undermine your views – usually jumping on the bandwagon and announcing loudly what others have said in a negative context. Most of the criticism I've seen in response to this has been either non-productive bickering or some kind of attention seeking in an attempt to put out the propaganda of a political agenda that flies in the face of the truth.
Posted by Anna on October 6, 2009 at 4:38 am | permalink |
selfish….just plain selfish. your blog and your interview reek of self. disgusting.
Posted by Amy on October 6, 2009 at 9:59 am | permalink |
I think its brave and incredibly forthright of you to admit this in public. And you're right, talking about it is the best way to ensure that this 'women's issue' isn't sidelined anymore.
Posted by Grace on October 6, 2009 at 10:17 am | permalink |
Bravo. I was incredibly impressed how cool you stayed in the face of an arrogant, chauvinistic and ignorant interviewer, who showed absolutely no journalistic objectivity.
I whole-heartedly agree with you that women should be able to talk about miscarriages, but especially that women should be talking about their right to safe, affordable (preferably free) abortions in their own region. Bravo again!
Posted by Elizabeth on October 6, 2009 at 1:06 pm | permalink |
Women CAN talk about miscarriages. The issue is more a matter of the right time and place.
Why should I be paying for your free abortions with my tax money? If you think you are mature enough to make decisions about sex, then surely you are mature enough to pay for the consequences of those decisions. If you can't afford an abortion, keep your legs closed. You'd think feminism had come far enough that women would want to be FULLY RESPONSIBLE for the consequences of their actions. No?
Another example of why men are less and less interested in American women. Aside from brutal and unfair divorce laws I mean. The avg American women is a dangerous narcissist, completely disconnected from consequence and responsibility. Looking for big-daddy government to clean up their messes. A shocking insult to real women everywhere.
Posted by CT on October 19, 2009 at 4:38 pm | permalink |
Carry on fighting the good fight Penelope.
I actually applauded when I heard that interview!
And all you (mostly male it would seem) fundamentalist bat-shit crazy christians and hyperactive pro-life breeders: go spout your nonsense somewhere else. Some people, including myself and many others, are way beyond tired of your god clap trap to care anymore.
Try to help women before they get pregnant for a change. Maybe health care reform would be a start? Oh no, but that actually costs money and you don't want to pay for that! How hypocritical….
Posted by astra on October 6, 2009 at 1:43 pm | permalink |
Whew, Astra are you ever an angry person. As a women, I realize the oppression of women by men firsthand but whether you want to believe it or not, some women do see the reality behind abortion (that it is murder) and see the correlation between abortion and the continuing oppression of women–to say nothing of the issue of not being willing or able to manage one's sex life (usually a combination of chemical abuse and mental health disorders some of it due to being abused and oppressed–see the vicious cycle?). Violence begets violence and is never the answer and abortion is a violent act no matter how you cut it (pun intended). FYI – I am against capital punishment and war if you want to make more assumptions about we "hyperactive pro-life breeders". What you see as nonsense that should be spouted off elsewhere (where would you suggest Oh Queen Astra?) is supported as common sense by a large segment of both the male and female populations. Don't project onto others the obvious anger and shame you feel about your own abortion(s). Some of us can actually see your tirade for what it truly is. I feel no shame in discussing my periods, my miscarriage, my pregnancies or the fact that I have been raped. Abortion is talked about and admitted to much less due to shame. There is a reason for this. However, eventually if you rationalize long enough you no longer will feel any guilt but are left with unresolved anger. You suggest helping women before they get pregnant. Do you have any suggestions about helping a women over 40 who continues to get pregnant and abort? Is Penelope a poor, young, destitute, alcoholic woman who doesn't realize how she keeps getting pregnant? Were her last pregnancies a result of rape or incest? Quit blaming religions and politics for the obvious lack of personal responsibility in some people's lives. Maybe we could find a class on self-control for Penelope and one on anger management for you. If Penelope gets pregnant again, maybe we could help her find an adoption agency where there are many "bat-shit crazy christians" waiting to adopt and raise children with self-control — yes, even special needs children like those with Aspergers. I've seen on these blogs the stats that 1 out of every 3 women have an abortion in their lifetime. That's like saying 1 in 3 men commit rape because 1 in 3 women are raped in their lifetime. A way smaller percentage of women are aborting but these women are doing it way more often–Example: Penelope
"Of all acts of man, repentance is the most divine. The greatest of all faults is to be conscious of none." Thomas Carlyle
http://www.priestsforlife.org/articles/canibeforgiven.html
Posted by Rita on October 6, 2009 at 4:58 pm | permalink |
What are you going on about, seriously? My "tirade" was much, much shorter than yours :)…. My "unresolved anger and shame" of an abortion?? Did I have one? You have no clue Rita. I am angry, yes, but more about the way people such as yourself try and back up your arguments with, tada!, yet more catholic mumbo-jumbo. You don't agree with abortion b/c you consider it murder, fine. But try and frame your arguments without religious zealotry and I'd be more apt to listen.
You clearly dislike Penelope and her blog, why are you here?
Birth control fails, and she has no obligation to carry a pregnancy to hand it over for adoption. Zero. Stop trying to decipher her (or my) state of mind. Its insulting and frankly pointless.
Posted by astra on October 7, 2009 at 10:15 am | permalink |
Did you have one? Or more? Sometimes the truth hurts but the truth will also set you free. Seriously. . .
Posted by Rita on October 7, 2009 at 12:54 pm | permalink |
I thought how Penelope conducted herself on CNN was incredible. I think that what was written on twitter was not inappropriate. If Penelope were a man making a statement about something personal no one would criticize him. The CNN interviewer had no tact and it was totally disrespectful to open up by saying "young lady."
Posted by Natalie on October 6, 2009 at 4:32 pm | permalink |
I'm glad you did this. Miscarriages have a lot of stigma and silence around them, as do so many women's health issues. The folks who are attacking you are ones who perpetuate the silence for their own advantage or personal comfort. Just because miscarriage is an uncomfortable topic doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed: it means it SHOULD be discussed. Don't let the asshats silence you.
Posted by kat on October 6, 2009 at 5:06 pm | permalink |
Brava, Rita! Very good! I'm so sick of being automatically mischaracterized as either a Christian (I'm an atheist), or a man (if I'm using my net handle) just because I have the ability to see abortion for what it really is-the taking of another human life.
Even people who perform abortions know subconciously that it is wrong. This is an excerpt of an abortionist's blog:
"When I was a little over 18 weeks pregnant with my now pre-school child, I did a second trimester abortion for a patient who was also a little over 18 weeks pregnant. As I reviewed her chart I realised that I was more interested than usual in seeing the fetal parts when I was done, since they would so closely resemble those of my own fetus. I went about doing the procedure as usual, removed the laminaria I had placed earlier and confirmed I had adequate dilation. I used electrical suction to remove the amniotic fluid, picked up my forceps and began to remove the fetus in parts, as I always did. I felt lucky that this one was already in the breech position – it would make grasping small parts (legs and arms) a little easier. With my first pass of the forceps, I grasped an extremity and began to pull it down. I could see a small foot hanging from the teeth of my forceps. With a quick tug, I separated the leg. Precisely at that moment, I felt a kick – a fluttery “thump, thump” in my own uterus. It was one of the first times I felt fetal movement. There was a leg and foot in my forceps, and a “thump, thump” in my abdomen. Instantly, tears were streaming from my eyes – without me – meaning my conscious brain – even being aware of what was going on. I felt as if my response had come entirely from my body, bypassing my usual cognitive processing completely. A message seemed to travel from my hand and my uterus to my tear ducts. It was an overwhelming feeling – a brutally visceral response – heartfelt and unmediated by my training or my feminist pro-choice politics. It was one of the more raw moments in my life. Doing second trimester abortions did not get easier after my pregnancy; in fact, dealing with little infant parts of my born baby only made dealing with dismembered fetal parts sadder."
Posted by Linda on October 6, 2009 at 8:47 pm | permalink |
Rick Sanchez is an ass.
Posted by Robin on October 7, 2009 at 7:21 am | permalink |
You can wrap this up in as much post hoc pro-choice cotton as you like but what you've done is trivialize women. THis is all after the fact rationalize for a moment when you exposed your narcissism and now you seek to disguise it as something else. Most people not wrapped up in themselves recognize the dignity of life — whether pro-choice or not. You do not. But I do hope for you that your passing will mean something more to those close to you than could be captured in a tweet.
Posted by Marta on October 7, 2009 at 7:22 am | permalink |
As someone who experienced a miscarriage, having gotten pregnant 4 months after the birth of my second child, I am at a loss to understand what this woman was feeling. Even though my pregnancy was not planned and though terrified at the prospect of 3 children under the age of 4, I still felt such a loss – even after 30+ years I feel the pangs of what might have been…
Posted by Candy Fontalbert on October 7, 2009 at 7:46 am | permalink |
Amazing how all these judgemental critics spend their time reading your blog. Didn't know you could get internet access from caves nowadays!
Posted by vincer on October 7, 2009 at 10:48 am | permalink |
If you could comprehend anything beyond the sludge of your own thoughts, you would see that none of her other posts have nearly the same hits as this adolescent attempt at gaining attention. (I knew so many drama queens in highschool who were so good at grabbing long confused stares from others — didn't make them smart, or even worthy of the attention).
Also, I didn't know that just because you can plug in a computer, and you have some typing skills, that that somehow automaticaly means you have some value and substance to offer the world. I would say in your case, that this is obviously not the case.
And dear Vincer, if for one mili-second you could actually try to undrstand something other than the sound of your own voice, you would read some comments here from people who are so far from being cave dwellers. There are a couple dozen forward thinkers (progressives, if you will) who have stated their absolute horror at this sad person's publicity stunt. There are some "judgements" in this feed that are so true to their mark. And if you think you can post a tweeted thought from your tweeted brain that even comes close to dismissing them, … well then you and MISS TRUNK are two mentally sterile peas in a pod.
Blessed Be to the lot of you
Posted by lefty on October 7, 2009 at 11:49 am | permalink |
You need to understand that a main point of the women's movement was to allow choices and privacy. (what a concept!) I had a miscarriage eleven years ago and still mourn the loss of my baby.
If you want to talk about terminating a pregnancy and the lack of access in Wisconsin then do that in a manner that does not offend so many people with a lack of empathy for their pain and loss.
Glad that the right to choose extends equally to the heartless and clueless. God bless America.
Posted by brigid Dunn on October 7, 2009 at 1:00 pm | permalink |
I am curious how you can so easily equate having a miscarriage to having an abortion, as though they go hand in hand.
A miscarriage is a tragic event, which is naturally occurring. All of the women that I have spoken to about miscarriages that they have had note that it is an emotionally scarring event which lead them to periods of depression.
An abortion on the other hand is your active choice to terminate a life. It is an elective surgery. There is nothing natural about an abortion.
Your post made me sick, simply because you are apparently not able to distinguish the difference between the two and somehow thought that the issue was so low key as to post it as though you were trying to choose the bread on your sandwich that day. "Got up, had coffee, had a miscarriage (thank God!, abortions are so inconvenient), not sure if I want rye or pumpernickel.
I'm not objecting to your rights as an American Citizen, but your callousness towards the life that just ended in your body. People are more emotionally distraught and grieved by the loss of the family dog, than you were for your potential child.
I hope you don't treat your other children with such disregard and callousness.
Posted by James on October 7, 2009 at 1:25 pm | permalink |
Wow. This lady is about as sensible as Jon Gosselin. Is she really giving advice to others? I'm guessing that her advice comes from a guerilla-tactic, burn-your-bridges perspective. And balancing work and personal life? I guess her view of balancing simply means having no boundaries between the two. What employer would want their employee tweeting during a board meeting? This is ridiculous.
Posted by dkla on October 7, 2009 at 2:04 pm | permalink |
Wow. This is truly incredible. Penelope–will you marry me? I always wanted a dignified wife who stands up for what she believes in–one who has the reserve and the mental fortitude to tough it out when times are difficult. You have proven your worth many times over!! Your wisdom is boundless. Your tweets are timeless. I can't wait to introduce you to my parents and say, "Mom, Dad: this is my fiance. Yes, that's right, the one who wants to ease access to abortions so that all women can have them. Yes, the one who told the world about her miscarriage in less than 90 characters. Yes, the career-obsessed attention-hungry dignity vampire who is sucking the life out of me."
On second thought, you suck. Get a life, nerd.
Posted by Fiance on October 7, 2009 at 2:43 pm | permalink |
ugh. unbelievable.
Posted by Linda Lee on October 7, 2009 at 3:14 pm | permalink |
Any woman who has sex can get pregnant. Not every woman can handle a pregnancy or a child at every point in her life, for reasons that include lack of access to health care, lack of support in her relationship, unemployment, and so on. And it is not realistic to expect that people will have sex only when procreation is possible or desirable.
If the posters on this boar really want to reduce the number of abortions, please focus on health care, focus on support for working mothers, focus on ANYTHING but yelling at women who want to have sex without having a baby. The violence and anger I see in abortion protesters is really, really scary. The rage thrown at Penelope is unreasonable, and it will not persuade anyone.
Posted by Liz on October 7, 2009 at 5:14 pm | permalink |
You don't mention selfism as the most popular reason women in our country abort (and the fact that they are often pressured by selfish men). ME, ME, ME Generation. Why is it not realistic to expect people to have sex only in committed relationships? People do have the ability to say no (exceptions of course) but a larger and larger segment are doing what they want, with who they want, when they want without using any self-control or thought process. We are not animals operating on instinct and will not die from lack of frequent sex (this needs to be taught and shown by example from an early age). We all need to set the bar higher for ourselves and each other–especially our young people (anyone watch Dr. Phil today about kids having sex on the dance floor during school dances?)
If you look there are positive options and many good people willing to help if become pregnant and are feeling alone. You will find them if you look for them but we also have to avail ourselves to others, not just offer to take them to the abortion clinic. My former "product of conception" now lives with and helps take care of the man who put money on the table twenty years ago telling me to "get rid of it."
Not that long ago, people were stating "It's not realistic to expect everyone to give up their slaves" and "I don't personally believe in slave ownership but I don't think I have a right to judge others that own them."–Yes people were saying exactly these words. Substitute the word abortion for slave and you have the same way of thinking. When we know better, we do better.
I do judge others for aborting, not because I think I'm better because I'm not, but because I believe life begins at conception and am therefore obligated to speak for those who cannot–just as I would expect you to defend me if I was not able to speak out for myself. I also truly believe that abortion further oppresses women and is deceiving so many of us into believing that it enpowers us — it doesn't . . .
Many pro-lifers already focus on supporting women in all ways. This shouldn't cloud the fact that in addition to addressing these issues, we are also obligated to speak out against murder. We as women need to support one another and not advocate for quick fixes like abortion. I do agree that "yelling" at women is not the answer and women are their own worst enemies. However this nastiness goes both ways not just toward abortion advocates.
One of the best books I have read recently that talks about Theology and the Body is entitled "Good News About Sex and Marriage". It is written by a Catholic man so if you are closed minded about what Catholics or men have to offer you probably won't get past the first chapter. If a few pro-choice women would read through this book, I would be very interested in hearing their thoughts afterwards. Penelope? I in turn am willing to read any book representing your views.
Liz, you state the "anger and violence" you see in abortion protesters is "really, really scary."
The cycles of violence and anger I see BECAUSE of abortion are "really, really scary" but mostly just super, super sad . . . . ):
There is a better way.
Posted by Rita on October 7, 2009 at 10:43 pm | permalink |
Abortion is no different from any other health crisis? In most cases, pregnancy isn't a crisis; it's a choice. Let me air my dirty laundry: I have had three miscarriages. Your flippant treatment of such an horrific event trivializes the suffering of every woman who has grieved over the death of a child.
Posted by Angie on October 7, 2009 at 8:28 pm | permalink |
I wasn't going to comment, but I have to. I have suffered multiple miscarriages, had an abortion, birthed my beautiful daughter and am planning to have another. I had a loss at 19.5 weeks and felt horrible. but what is interesting is that when I went through that loss (a very public one in the middle of Las Vegas on my wedding day)I learned that so many women that I knew suffered miscarriages and it is considered by many shameful.
The thing is that every woman deals with life events differently. Her comment does not trivialize my feelings because my feelings are my own and no one else's, My situation was different.
Penelope, you are right, no one talks about this enough. Was twitter the proper forum? Maybe not for me but we are different people.
I will say that you are wrong in saying that " Even if you are someone who wanted the baby and are devastated by the loss, you’re not going to sit in bed for weeks. You are going to pick up your life and get back to it, which includes going back to work." That is not true for everyone- don't generalize. Some women do sit in bed a cry for weeks and that's OK because that is how they deal with it.
Posted by Kristina on October 7, 2009 at 9:02 pm | permalink |
Did anyone notice Penelope is a God awful writer?
Posted by Baltotrav on October 8, 2009 at 6:23 am | permalink |
Just for the record, abortion is not comparable to slavery.
If you object to abortion, please focus all this rage and energy on finding ways to support women and children. Because it's just not realistic to expect every woman in America to wait to have sex until she has excellent health insurance, a job that will allow her time off to care for a baby, and a supportive partner. The economy is taking a hit, in case you haven't noticed. This issue isn't going to go away any time soon.
Incidentally, most healthcare plans don't cover birth control, and many treat pregnancy as a "preexisting condition." If you really feel like screaming about this subject, call an insurance company and yell at THEM.
Posted by Liz on October 8, 2009 at 9:17 am | permalink |
You are an idiot. You lack of sense gives women a bad name.
Posted by Amy on October 8, 2009 at 9:32 am | permalink |
Liz, abortion is comparable to slavery (I can still believe this can't I even though you know what the record should state? After all it is still a free if very materialistic country). Have you studied the correlation between abortion and slavery? If so what classes and books have you taken and researched? Do you know that some people believe child molestation should be legalized? They too come up with rationalizations for their evil ideas and behaviors (the child didn't object, the child enjoyed it too, other people support it, etc., etc.) It's just a matter of getting the "right" people in power. Did you know Hitler "legalized" the things he did before he did them or ordered them done? He also had ALOT of supporters.
If every women waited to have a baby until, in your words "she has excellent health insurance, a job that will allow her time off to care for a baby, and a supportive partner" most of us would never have had children. I am not the unrealistic one. Are those of us who have never had great insurance, great jobs or great partners expected to wait or never have children or should we all abort and only the well-off women should have families? If you have a child with all of these wonderful things in place and someone else has a child without any of them in place, what child is worth more to its family and society? What woman is worth more? Your statements are further examples of excuse, excuse, excuse, ME, ME, ME. You sound as if you are proud that abortion "isn't going away soon."
If you were a true advocate for women your thinking would be more about what you could do to help women make positive choices regarding sex and help pregnant women in other ways rather than push abortion on them, therefore making them believe that they are not strong enough or good enough until they have what you believe is necessary to properly raise a child. I'm guessing you are against the waiting period in Wisconsin as well. If nothing is inheritantly wrong with abortion what is another few weeks? "NOW, NOW, NOW I want my abortion NOW because I couldn't control myself and NOW I don't want to think too hard about what I'm about to do!!"
In your words, "The economy is taking a hit, in case you haven't noticed." Do I sound so simple to you that I wouldn't have noticed this? Have you researched the issues behind the economy taking a hit? Again, reality check.
If you feel like screaming at someone, why don't you call up the abortin clinics and yell at THEM. Maybe they can kill 2 for the price of 1? Or if they are so concerned about women why don't they just volunteer and commit abortions for free? That's what you expect from the pro-lifers.
Posted by Rita on October 8, 2009 at 6:06 pm | permalink |
I haven't read all the comments above… so I might be saying what someone has already said.
Are you really complaining about having to drive to Chicago to get an abortion? Really? Are you really doing that? You live in Madison, Wisconsin which is no more than a 2.5 hour car ride. It's not like you can download a 99 cent iPhone application that gives you an abortion.
Must be tough to be you Penelope…
Even tougher to be your baby…
Even tougher yet… to be your two children who have a careless mother who does not value the life a human being.
Posted by Lisa on October 8, 2009 at 9:25 pm | permalink |
Rita – your comment was RIGHT on. The words you wrote are what I think but seem to never express it the right way. Thanks for speaking out for those that feel the same way.
Posted by Rochelle on October 8, 2009 at 9:50 pm | permalink |
No. Abortion is not comparable to slavery, and you're belittling slavery when you insist.
And you want women to "make positive decisions about sex?" What does that mean? You want every woman to wait until she is in a healthy marriage, with strong financial support and health insurance, before she has sex? Even those women, I'm sorry to tell you, can find themselves in a situation where they cannot take the time off from work to have a baby. Or where a partner turns out not to be as supportive as she thought.
If what you really want is for women to not have sex, then just say that. Screaming at them after they have sex, insisting that they go through months of painful and health-risking pregnancy, possibly without health insurance of family support? And then comparing them to slave holders? That's just totally out of line. If you want to reduce the number of abortions, then stop screaming at women and HELP. There is plenty for everyone to do. Yelling about sex is so totally pointless, and if you really believe that abortion is the same as killing a life, it's counter-productive, too.
Posted by Liz on October 8, 2009 at 10:00 pm | permalink |
"If nothing is inheritantly wrong with abortion what is another few weeks?"
You really need to read a biology textbook. For one thing, an induced miscarriage with a pill is cheaper and less invasive than a medical procedure, but it is only available in the first 7-9 weeks. For another, pregnancy is not like the flu. I know pregnant women, and it's more like having a severe case of the flu, with cramps, and strange rashes, at once. You would force a woman to wait weeks in that kind of misery before she can have a legal procedure? That's just cruel.
If you oppose abortion, fine. But stop with all the bile and hatred for women. If you want to reduce the number of abortions, then use all this energy to fight for women and children, to make their lives better. It is inexcusable to see pro-lifers stepping over homeless people to yell at women entering a clinic. It is horrible to see all of these people on this board screaming on this board. If this really matters to you, GO HELP SOMEONE.
Posted by Liz on October 8, 2009 at 10:09 pm | permalink |
Why do you believe I am belittling slavery? Slaves were not given a voice either due to other people's selfishness.
Don't assume you know what I do for a living, how much I know about biology, what I do when I'm not paid or what my race is. You have no idea what I do or don't do to help women and children. As I have said previously, I don't believe screaming at anyone is productive but it shouldn't divert people from the issue at hand which is the murdering of innocent life.
Rationalize all you want but it still won't make abortion OK.
Posted by Rita on October 9, 2009 at 7:40 am | permalink |
What I want to know is why this woman can't seem to get a handle on birth control. She has already had at least 2 abortions and was going to have another. It's not like she's a teenager who got caught up, shes a 40yr old woman for gods sake.
Posted by Joseph on October 9, 2009 at 7:43 am | permalink |
She has admitted before that she likes sex and it is obviously the unprotected kind. No mention of STD testing or the like either in the past or prior to getting into this relationship.
Posted by econobiker on October 9, 2009 at 9:59 am | permalink |
I am a former clinic worker, pro-privacy, pro-Roe v. Wade feminist professional.
Roe v Wade does NOT guarantee that when you snap your fingers you get the medical care you request. PENELOPE, DO YOU KNOW THAT THERE IS A HEALTHCARE CRISIS UNDERWAY? Do you know that people wait for medically necessary procedures? That some of those procedures waited for border on life-saving? Do you know that the vast majority of abortions are NOT NOT NOT NOT medically necessary nor emergency procedures?
Calm down now, Penelope. Remember I am on your side about Roe V Wade. But – LISTEN CAREFULLY – Penelope: You come off as an immature and spoiled brat who misunderstands what Roe v Wade is about. I am embarrassed for you and I am angry at you: believe you me, you just became a poster child for the anti-abortion crusaders.
I recognized, as soon as I read Kathleen Parker's column, that there was a real issue here: access to abortion services.
But what you just did, my dear, was add 2000 pounds of justification to the right's use of the phrase "abortion on demand" to characterize all who seek abortions as ridiculous self-involved women without an ounce of moral depth or capacity.
AGAIN:
Roe v Wade does not guarantee that when you snap your fingers you get the medical care you request. PENELOPE, DO YOU KNOW THAT THERE IS A HEALTHCARE CRISIS UNDERWAY? That people wait for medically necessary procedures? That some of those procedures waited for border on life-saving? Do you know – and again, remember, I am on your side when it comes to Roe v Wade – that the vast majority of abortions are NOT NOT NOT NOT medically necessary nor emergency procedures?
I am ashamed for you that this your response to the response to your tweet.
And I am sorry for your loss, Penelope.
Jean
Posted by jean on October 9, 2009 at 4:35 pm | permalink |
TO All Women, don't let others make you believe you can't be a feminist if you are pro-life. This is how they keep you in your place–wanting you to believe they are all-knowing and so much brighter about morality issues. Abortion is a humanity issue not a man vs. woman issue. Never be ashamed to ask for help when you need it and be assured life-affirming help is here. Please lead by example, teach your children the benefits and joy of self-control and don't be afraid to use your voice to speak out against all violence and oppression in our world.
P.S. Jean, Anyone can use the title "professional." EXAMPLE: Professional Hitman (or Hitwomyn)
Posted by Rita on October 9, 2009 at 6:11 pm | permalink |
a good feminist doesn't proselytize about what other women should choose for their own lives. for what it feminism without tolerance and the "self control" you speak of–particularly when it comes to scolding people with whom you don't agree.
Posted by thatgirlinnewyork on October 10, 2009 at 3:51 am | permalink |
Okay, then. Let's make sure men who led a lifestyle that results a medical condition can't get the surgeries they need, mmkk? After all, THERE IS A HEALTH CARE CRISIS UNDERWAY and they are OBVIOUSLY unworthy of the surgery BECAUSE THEY BROUGHT IT ON THEMSELVES. They made their bed and now they should lie in it, right. Only those men who can prove their lifestyle didn't result in the medical condition should be given treatment. AFTER ALL, THERE IS A HEALTH CARE CRISIS UNDERWAY.
A woman has the right to get an abortion whenever she wants for whatever reason she wants. If she flips a coin and that's how she comes to the decision, it's her choice. Stop the panty sniffing. So gross, the Christofascists panting for women to suffer for having sex. Maybe you all should go get laid, eh? Ah, but I forgot sex isn't fun in your world. It's done with the lights off and in missionary position and lasts all of two seconds.
Posted by Zas on March 9, 2010 at 1:42 am | permalink |
Penelope, dear. You appear to be a somewhat intelligent woman, but apparently aren't. How is it possible that you do not know HOW TO PREVENT an unwanted pregnancy? Since you don't, please immediately ask your boss/CEO/Board/whatever for several "personal crisis" days off and go have your tubes tied. Tubal ligation = no more miscarriages or abortions to tweet about so disgustingly. I pity your poor existing children, who will one day be forced to realize the depth of their mother's cavalier attitude. It would be extremely interesting for someone to interview your significant tother about HIS feelings about your twittering/frittering away about the lost of HIS progeny. You act like this is solely a "woman's experience". Shame. Shame. Shame. Your parents must be SO proud of you.
Posted by Marilyn Way on October 9, 2009 at 4:40 pm | permalink |
Dear Rita – you are correct. anyone can use "professional".
I am a professional social worker with graduate education. I mentioned it because i am accustomed to the offensive suggestion that anyone who calls people like Trunk on the carpet for her nonsense must be radically different from her in class, education, profession, etc. I agree with you that many feminists are Pro-Life, though I do always want to clarify that many anti-abortion activists are not consistently pro-life (having no time or interest for the full spectrum of life issues: war, death penalty, toxic environment, extreme poverty, food insufficiency, etc.)
Jean
Posted by jean on October 9, 2009 at 6:27 pm | permalink |
Jean, You tell Penelope "I am sorry for your loss." It is not a loss if it is not a life so why do you not congratulating Penelope instead?
I do agree with you on the Life Issues and am consistant on all of these issues as are the majority of people who believe abortion is murder (but it is the fanatics you hear about). However, I disagree that you can be a true feminist until you come around on the abortion issue. Women have been mislead throughout all of history and it continues but we now have an equal right to education and the right to look back at history. I type this in the hopes that it will help more women realize that not all "choices" are positive and beneficial to self and others–and most women already know that not all men have their well-being in mind. I also live with the sincere hope that there is a possibility that you and others may come to a different way of thinking. Please believe me when I say that there are those that want to keep you in the dark for their own selfish purposes. Some "pro-lifers" will not "waste" their time on the outspoken abortion advocate. I don't believe my time spent on this issue is ever a waste and I do this because I know if even one "pro-choice" women comes around to the Truth, they will be women's best advocates in the long run–and truly compassionate on top of it. Please know that I don't intend to sound patronizing but don't know any other way to express what I have learned to be true without offending some.
Margaret Sanger, founder of the American Birth Control League, now Planned Parenthood, advocated sterilization in her words, for "all dependents such as the unemployed, the deaf, the deformed and the blind; the delinquents such as the wayward and the criminals; the mentally deficient such as the morons and the idiots. . . " (in the 1930s–not that long ago).
Since you are a social worker, I'm hoping you have come to love some of those who Margaret thought didn't deserve to live to say nothing of deserving to procreate. Should women abort "down" to the "elite" classes? Our worth as humans should never be based on "class, education, profession, etc." but only on inherent right.
"Perhaps all the dragons in our lives
Are princesses who are only
waiting to see us act,
just once,
With beauty and courage.
Perhaps everything that frightens us is,
In its deepest essence,
Something helpless that wants our love."
—Rainer Maria Rilke
The last shall be first. Mothers, love your children.
Posted by Rita on October 9, 2009 at 11:55 pm | permalink |
Rita – you sound like wonderful company.
I am raciing against a wireless link that is unstable. Take deep breaths as you read me. I will watch for your response and post. You sound, again, like wonderful company. And, yes, Sanger was deeply problematic…
Here is something I recently wrote elsewhere
"I think I mentioned that – as a feminist social worker, as a very regretful one-time clinic worker, as a woman who has known many, many women who have terminated pregnanices and as a women who been spared the crisis of an unwanted pregnancy, I do not know ANY woman (or man) for that matter, who can be justly called "pro-abortion". I know many "pro-life" people who – as you said – are more accurately described as "anti-abortion" simply because they do not have formulated stands on (or do not attend to) all the many other "Life" issues. I, too, struggle with the language of "choice" in this area and believe that language was adopted at a time when the women's movement was addressing "choice" in more global terms: marriage or not, career or not, children or not, men as sexual partners or not, same-race partner or not, bra or not (you get my meaning)…and the reality that women were asserting that they could chose among all the greys in between those black-or-white constructions. I do believe that all of those struggles and the underlying societal tensions have been attached to the narratives surrounding this now-Constitutional debate so that, when Americans speak of the abortion controversy, we are rarely speaking strictly of the "life" issue. For this reason, I think it is essential that we try hard to be as honest and transparent and explicit as possible in choosing our words and "labels". (More on your next post).
We humans are so often inconsistent, and the beauty of language and community is that we can help each other struggle with WHY we are inconsistent in specific beliefs and actions, thus creating the space and opportunity for transformation. Whenever I encounter people willing to wrestle with stuff – even when they hold positions wildly contradicting my own – I recall this statement by Astrid Schlaps, a favorite professor and a psychoanalytically trained social worker: "Invite the construction of a new story without punishing people for the story they have already told". That is that I hope for when I talk with people about this deeply complex and painful issue". Jean
AND
"Such great discussions. As I said in response to Frank’s post about inconsistency, I do believe that US discussions about abortion are most often loaded with any number of additional and profoundly important issues. It is very difficult to discover the patience required for parsing these various issues so that, when the topic is “apples”, the argument is in fact applicable to apples and not persimmons.
I often wonder if contemporary participants in the debate acknowledge that, in the 21st century, the legal right to obtain an abortion has been a Constitutional reality for the entire lifetime of a near totality of US women currently of child-bearing age. I wonder this because it seems very hard, I think, for most of us to stay clear in these discussions that abortion is at once a moral issue and, in the US, a Constitutional issue, which translates in the minds of most as a civil rights issue. It is too late, I think, to expect that the two frameworks – moral (“life”) and Constitutional (“rights”) – will not be constantly and subtly and powerfully intertwined to the point of being inseparable in most contemporary discussions, whether or not we are aware or are able to acknowledge that.
Any U.S. woman who reached sexual maturity after 1973 – which means most women under age 50 or so in this country –came of age knowing that she had the Constitutional right to decide whether she would carry a pregnancy to term. The facts are that U.S. women do have an existing Constitutional and, thus, civil right to terminate early pregnancies. We do have an existing Constitutional right to independently and privately determine the resolution of an early pregnancy. We do have the right to determine what will and will not occur within the internal cavities of our bodies. And we have that right regardless of our morality, regardless of how we respond to that right if we find ourselves pregnant when we do not want to be pregnant. We retain that right even if we find that right and/or its exercise morally repugnant.
An easy summation of the Constitutional reality in which American women have come to maturity in the decades since 1973 is the Roe v Wade street language: “we have the right to control our bodies”. We do. We just plain do.
That shortcut, when viewed in the “Life” framework, is admittedly pretty troubling but it is, I think, wholly unremarkable as a statement of fact in the only Constitutional framework most of us have experienced firsthand and, thus, the only one to which we are accountable.
When we talk about outlawing abortion in the US, we are talking about the complete retraction of an existing (specifically and clearly defined) Constitutional right. When I boil it all down, all I can say as an American citizen born in 1963 (and, thus, aware of this, my Constitutional right, by the time I started high school in 1977) is this: “you have got to be kidding me”.
We are talking rights here, Frank, and we are talking specifically about women’s rights under the current Constitution. In my mind, that means it is exceptionally difficult to talk about abortion in the US without acknowledging that a Constitutional right is our context whenever the morality of abortion is discussed.
And that brings me to this. You wrote: “Let me go as far as to say that I think the Catholic Church will go a long ways to ending abortion when women have the equality in society they were intended for by their Creator. The desire for abortion rights, from my perspective, often comes out of a deep pain that women have for not feeling like they are in control over their own lives. In my view, abortion rights are an improper response to this pain. But I think that when women have the standing in society they were meant for, the discussion about abortion will enter a much better phase than it is right now–it won't be driven as much by the pain of inequality”.
I have to say that my initial hit is that you are right.
I would ask you to consider changing a few of your words, but I think you are on to something very important.
I do not think you are speaking here of individual and specific decisions to terminate a pregnancy and, thus, that you did not suggest women are acting out or using faulty logic when they seek to abort a pregnancy. I think you are talking about why women are so vigilant and determined in their protection of this Constitutional right. And I agree.
Women have not attained full equality in this world. Women are not treated as equals in many of the religious communities that are most adamant and vociferous (and often just plain ugly and hateful) on this issue. And I do believe that contributes much of the messiness of discussions about abortion.
I know I have lost patience at times – in discussion with conservative men who are as ardently anti-feminist as they are anti-abortion – and have wanted to say, “Oh, for Pete’s sake, before you harangue me about how women are denying the equal rights of unborn babies, why don’t we start with some talk about equality in your interactions with women?” ?” (I don’t say it. I have. It is generally not productive. I have a mental list of men in my southern conservative Catholic community with whom I simply will not discuss abortion because I know that the unacknowledged subtext is feminism and the fact that they dislike that I conduct myself as their equal in every way. THAT is why they bring up the topic to me. When we can acknowledge that and talk about it, then I will believe we are on our way to being able to actually talk about abortion when we talk about abortion. I have hopes we will get there).
And I think that was your point about women’s ordination and abortion, Frank.
Again, women have not attained full equality in this world. Women are not treated as equals in many of the religious communities that are most adamant and vociferous (and often just plain ugly and hateful) on this issue.
If power were shared equally and conscientiously, the conditions which contribute (and have always contributed) to women’s decisions to end pregnancies would be significantly impacted and altered. Women would not choose, if they as a class truly had the structural power to do otherwise, the various insufficiencies that make many unplanned pregnancies so difficult to carry to term. Given a full and sufficient response to what is required to create political, moral and structural equality for women-as-mothers-of-and-for-the-human-race, abortion as a “safety net” would not be so much on our collective minds.
Women – and feminist men – might then find it less frightening to engage in brutally honest (and, thus, emotionally and morally and spiritually painful) discussions about what is really occurring when a pregnancy is terminated. And that honesty, born when women have the equality in society they were intended for by their Creator (as you said, Frank), could have the power to transform the discussion from a legitimate debate about rights to a life-giving discussion about how to protect and nurture all God’s creations.
Again, that is what I thought you were getting at, Frank, and I agree with you.
I believe many women reflexively support abortion because, as a legal right, it is one of the few structural “safety nets” women can count on in this class- and gender-biased country. Many other structural resources, protections and safety nets are subject to the willingness – the benevolence – of specific players and authorities to facilitate and ensure effective utilization of those resources and protections which are designed to ensure women retain full agency and equal opportunity in their lives. A scared pregnant woman considering the “safety net” that is Roe v Wade requires no such benevolence from the system or individual powers.
I do believe that some of the reasons women give for aborting pregnancies – many of the ones you listed – are simply statements of the much larger reality you and I are articulating, Frank. Our personal stories are told in the language and terms of our known narratives, right? And I think many of us manage pain and confusion through language shortcuts, and I think a lot of those reasons you listed are shortcuts through highly complex and landscapes and elusive existential awarenesses. “I can’t take time out of college to have this baby” is a much more manageable bite than “I feel like I had to fight so many fears and people and barriers to get to the place where I could go to school. I feel like school is saving my life. I am terrified at the thought of leaving school even for a short time. What if I can’t return? I am terrified I cannot do it a second time. I am terrified no one will let me or help me do it a second time. And where does that leave me? Back there, in that place, in that life I worked my way out of, that place I had to get out of. And this time I will be there with a baby who is totally dependent on me? When I can barely make it by myself?”
So, when a woman says to me, “I have to have an abortion because I am student”, I wonder if she is telling me all those other things about her life and her fears. It is all too likely, in this society, that she **is** telling me those things. And it is all too likely that many women who support Roe v. Wade have been, are, will be or know a woman who opts for abortion “because she is a student” but, much more completely, because her life is some version of the one described above.
That said, I have long believed (before and during and very often in the 20 years since my experience as a clinic worker) that “pro-choice” activists often use semantics to obstruct the moral question you are driving at, Frank. In many discussions of abortion with activists, it is still anathema to say what any high school biology student would recognize if able to observe a first trimester fetus “in utero” and then observe (even) a first trimester abortion: abortion impacts biological life. Abortion terminates biological life. Abortion ends biological life. Abortion kills biological life. The genetics of that biological life are human. Thus, abortion kills human life. There is, in my mind, no intellectually honest way to deny those facts. Genetically human cells are living and dividing and specializing in the woman’s uterus, according to a natural pattern and process, a life process which is permanently and irrevocably stopped by an abortion procedure. Facts are facts, right?
But stating those facts most often has the effect of drawing a chalk line down the center of a room, after which people rush to either side, self-selecting according to ideological position on legal abortion. A statement of those facts tends to result in the speaker being both pulled AND pushed on to the “anti-abortion” side. Often even before the speaker has finished the statement or in any way disclosed a moral or political position.
I have been frustrated by that dynamic for a very long time. I understand the dynamic and even the logic (moral and otherwise) but I think it is unfortunate. That dynamic – that inability to hear a statement of fact without immediately structuring relationships and ensuing dialogue around assumed ideology – makes it difficult, I think, to have the discussion you seek, Frank.
And, when the less powerful have little reason to trust the most powerful and when so much is at stake —– in this case, one of the few rock solid structural guarantees of equality (in terms of self-determination) women have in their daily lives in this country, even at this late date — self-protection does tend to trump all else, some truths included, in the individual and collective human mind.
I find that “ideological lockstep” short-sighted and ultimately destructive of moral progress, which always depends on unwavering commitment to the truth, even when it raises questions that frighten or challenge us morally and politically. As an emotional response to deep and intolerable inequality, it is entirely expected and not likely to be eradicated soon.
And, though I am frustrated terribly by the intellectual dishonesty and the ideologically-filtered responses, I understand the impulse. And I think that loops back to your smart hypothesis that the Catholic Church (and society) will begin to make headway in its moral desire to end abortion when the Catholic Church (and society) makes headways in its moral response to women’s healthy, mature, moral desire “for the equality in society they were intended for by their Creator” (your beautiful words). It seems that you understand the impulse, too.
****A favorite book of mine is “Blaming the Victim” by Jack Ryan (1975). The essential message, for me, was captured in a single paragraph, which I used to be able to quote but will now need to paraphrase: “There is no culture of people on earth that willingly chooses death over life”.
I believe that. And I am reminded of that now. (My Catholicism helps me so much: Jesus, the God-man, teaches us how to acknowledge and be compassionate with our human need even as we deepen our spiritual courage and divine wisdom. We each are always “both/and”. Talk about having a fellow-traveller!) Jean
Posted by jean on October 10, 2009 at 5:13 pm | permalink |
does sanchez know how idiotic his query sounded?
"what happened? did you just excuse yourself?"
why no, rick, she sat there like a good corporate soldier and bled profusely. honestly–you put a pasty fat catholic guy who's "uncomfortable" up to interview someone about something to which he's clearly "morally opposed"? talk about playing to the lowest common denominator. not untypical of cnn.
yes! women should talk about miscarriages–and how sometimes they don't just course along on their own, and they're forced to have a d&c, which is the very last thing one wants when they're already miserable. hmmm–bleed for weeks and be severely compromised in one's day-to-day responsibilities to their children, job, mate? even people with sick days in this country don't get enough to get over a pregnancy. i've had several–start a klatsch over that subject, and i'm in.
penelope–keep talking. speak for the women who might be insured, but have to call doctor after doctor to find someone to treat them–for anything. in the fabulous usa, one can have the wrong insurance, or not enough of it, or none–and no one's prepared for you to even cut a cheque for care, because they don't know how to accept payment for service unless it's from an insurance company.
share all you like–none of the proselytizers here have to listen or read you, but somehow find pleasure in working themselves into a lather over the statements of someone whom they know nothing about, and only once they know this person's done something to which they personally object. grow up, people.
Posted by thatgirlinnewyork on October 10, 2009 at 3:47 am | permalink |
Your words – - "fat, pasty, catholic guy"
Who exactly are you angry at? Or better than? The overweight, Caucasians, Christians or men? I'm asking you kindly to please stop giving feminism a bad name. However, continue to share your thought processes so people can make up their own minds about what side to listen to regarding humanity issues. Thanks.
Posted by Rita on October 10, 2009 at 9:04 am | permalink |
Dear All That Girl,
"statements of someone whom they know nothing about" ? Are you saying that "Penelope" is not honest in her writings? If she is, then we already know ALOT about her. If she's not, it would further explain her personality.
"grow up, people"? Up a ways you talk about pro-lifers "scolding people" with whom they don't agree. How about you starting with practicing what you preach and noting the differences between a miscarriage and an abortion?
Why be upset when others protest (as is still a right in this country last I heard). You have the same right to picket outside the churches proclaiming how proud you are of your abortions. Bring it all into the light. . . .
Posted by Rita on October 10, 2009 at 5:10 am | permalink |
Thank you so much for talking about this. When you spoke about how whether or not people think that it is okay, women do have the right to an abortion in this country and should be give the ability to exercise that right, the interviewer looked startled. I think that a light bulb went off in his head and he suddenly understood the concept that you were actually talking about.
The point is really about women being allowed to use the rights that they have in this country and to talk about things that women are still encouraged to keep quiet about. Keep up the good work! I just discovered your blog and have been devouring every article!
Posted by Sue on October 10, 2009 at 10:48 am | permalink |
Someday maybe the rights of voiceless children will be thought about ):
Posted by Paula on October 10, 2009 at 11:15 am | permalink |
I don't think any of these numerous replies has a corner on the truth. Not even Penelope's original post. All we have is theories–not absolute truth. So here is my theory: Women and children are natural allies, or at least they were originally. Now, because of the culture and civilization that we have created, where work gobbles at parents' energy and attention, children may not take top priority. Ergo, children may be perceived as an interruption in one's life and career. I don't think it HAS to be that way, but it (often) is. This leads to delaying childbearing; having an abortion, etc. It is what it is–and in fact, we have created what it is. It is a byproduct of the culture we have created and that serves us well, in many instances. We can only control our own lives–and this only to a limited extent. So we make our own choices that are right for us. Within a cultural context. We may have an abortion–spontaneous or other–accompanied by tears or by relief, depending on what is going on in our lives. This is so individual. I would wish to respect others' decisions about this; and I would wish to be given the benefit of