P –
Do you have a reference for "More than 80% of young people say they want to live in New York City". I think it's more like 80% of young people IN MARKETING want to live in NYC. For young people in technology, NYC is more like #9 on the list. And really, the only people who want to live in NYC are either (1) from the Northeast, or (2) are rude and want to live with rude people. You'd be hard pressed to show that 80% of young people in Chicago or LA or Seattle or Austin or SF or Portland think that NYC the place to be.

And I'll disagree with your point #1 about NYC people being optimizers. They want to think they're optimizers, but in fact, they're not. They're just people who have money. How many Steinway pianos and Viking ranges and Trek bicycles actually get used my their owners? 10%? How many people who insist on $100+ wine could pick it out in a blind taste test vs. a $25 bottle? People with money buy the best they can afford because they can. Not because they're optimizers.

Tim Dellinger

I think you're missing the point entirely Tim. The Optimizer bit is DEAD ON. And it has nothing to do with money. In fact, most "real" people I know in the city love a good deal, especially in this economy. They just like getting bang for the buck. I don't think anybody chooses to be an optimizer – you're born that way. Trust me, there are plenty of times I've wished I could get off the treadmill of "better, stronger, faster" – but I can't. It's in my DNA.

No idea if the 80% factoid is true or not, but anecdotaly I'd say most people under 30 have a fantasy of living in NYC. It can be for any number of reasons – professional ambition, "Sex in the City-itus" or just a desire to be at a global epicenter of culture, cash and cuisine.

As for this: "(2) are rude and want to live with rude people."

Such a fallacy – fostered by the media. People in NYC aren't rude – they're focused, individualistic and ambitious. They move insanely fast, and people used to a slower pace of life can interpret this as rude. But the truth is, we're just people. In times of crisis we come together. If you're lost ask anybody in the subway for directions and they'll help. We hold doors, say excuse me and generally don't degrade into street brawls over stealing cabs in the rain.

True! I am an LA dweller and I just visited NYC for the first time a couple of weeks ago. It was striking how helpful and friendly people were (particularly in comparison with the stereotype). Of course every time I say that to an LA person they respond "then you walk around the corner and get mugged." Guess I didn't get that rite of passage on my trip.

And to add to the pot further, I am a twenty something and a very many of my pals have said they want to move to NY "just for a while"… in fact, a handful actually have made the move. The rest of us are apparently not optimizers. Personally I fear the weather. Living in moderate weather for my whole life has softened me.

Mike "As for this: "(2) are rude and want to live with rude people."
Such a fallacy – fostered by the media. People in NYC aren't rude – they're focused, individualistic and ambitious."

I once made the conclusion, not based on the media but due to my own interactions with people in New York. It is an inaccurate perception, but there is some truth to it. It is also true that many, many, New Yorkers are friendly, open and helpful. In general any city this large tends to condition you into being a bit closed to interaction with strangers which some may mistake as rudeness.

All generalizations are partial lies, though based on demonstrable and observable truths.

His statement was not a fallacy. It was an not accurate observation and an exaggeration. In the same manner as your statement.

Many New Yorkers are focused, individualistic, and ambitious.
And quite rude to boot.
Some are focused, individualistic, and ambitious, and not quite rude.
Some are focused, individualistic, and ambitious, and are quite polite.

And some yet still are unfocused, individualistic, and lacking ambition – and still manage to be rude.

also recognize, extreme individualism is a sort of self-absorption – which in many cultures is equivalent to rudeness.

Before anyone gets their pants into bundles it does bear noting that often time politeness is a social vice, it is often a strategy for distancing the other from you and it can, sometimes, be used purposefully to prevent intimacy in communication. And what some see as rudeness may sometimes be a virtue, a sort of rough honesty

"are rude and want to live with rude people"

that is the most ignorant thing i have read in a long time.

She didn't say 80% of young people put New York as #1, she just said that they "say they want to live in New York City" which could be at any given time.

Sadly in the past New York was the place where artist of all types could meet and make art now those artistic neighborhoods are filled with the rich and famous or Bankers. I still love it but it is not the charmed place it use to be. If you wanna make great art even Georgia O'Keefe's Taos has been taken over by the same people. Better be a salesman first and an artist second…. or live in the off road places the rich don't covet.

Not all NY'ers have money.

You make more because on average your rent is 1200 per person in a small, old apartment… and that is in the boroughs, not Manhattan.

After about 14% city and state income tax, 1200 rent, and the exorbitant prices that you pay on apples, gum, drinks, and basically air (they charge for EVERYTHING) I can pretty much guarantee you that those making less that 100K per year are living paycheck to paycheck if they arent getting help from their family.

But being a New Yorker myself, I wouldn't complain if your generalizations were true!

Who "doesn't" think that they are these things? Or want to believe that they want interesting lives full of success and the best of everything?

I don't. At least in the sense described in this post. I've seen how it destroys people and families.

Full of success and the best of everything, however, does not need to mean being a top-performing CEO and a pair of Louboutins.

If an optimizer is never happy, why would anyone want to be one? Just so you can say "I may be miserable, but at least I'm more interesting than you"?

All happy people I know consider their own lives interesting. Who cares whether someone else does?

I was wondering about the "eighty percent of generation Y thinks they are in the top ten percent of all workers" quote as well. If this is based off a study, I'm curious how that might compare with other generations.

The obvious takeaway from that (and one that you mention, but I think downplay) is that most of them are wrong. The vast majority of people cannot, by definition, be top performers–no matter how one defines the group.

Of course, I suspect that while the numbers may vary among generations, even when limited to how people felt when in a particular age range, that the truth is that a great many people overestimate their abilities and contributions. Yes, there are plenty who underestimate their impact. But just thinking you're awesome doesn't make it so.

Erica-I don't think I'm these "things".
That having been said, I've always thought I would like to live in NYC. After reading this though I think maybe I would just like to visit. SoCal upbringing might not mesh with NYC. Too laid back. Probably.

Great insights! For a while, I really wanted to move to New York (well…move out of the Bay Area, more like it). These are some great questions to ask and I think I'm a yes on all three. Thank you for asking them!

Fact is, if you have to rely on geography to deliver an interesting, fulfilling life, then you're probably a dreadfully boring person in the first place.

And when you say, "top of their fields" (i.e., "more valuable), do you mean inherently better, or just more people saying they're better? There's a difference. Not everyone gets that, which is why some of the best advertising agencies and law firms (both mainstays of NYC, traditionally) are in places like Boulder, Charlotte, and Austin.

And let's not forget–the assumption was that the "best" financial people were in NYC, and they did an amazing job of fucking shit up royally for the rest of the country.

Not at all related: I find New Yorkers to be among the most polite people ever. It's always a genuine experience.

v. nice.

I was born in Brooklyn and, though having grown up in the suburbs, have lived here in the city for the last 12 years. I love it to death. Food, culture, convenience, people, the raw speed of it, all of it. And I partake of it richly. It is like living a 36 hour day and a 10 day week while mainlining espresso.

But good God I'd leave in a heartbeat if I could figure out how to do it.

I could live without fresh pirogi from veselka at 2:00 on a Tuesday morning if I so chose. I don't really need to be within walking distance to The Brooklyn Bridge and the best pizza on God's Green Earth. Nor do I have to be able to walk to a local watering hole for conversation and libations. I don't need the best of everything but I sure as hell appreciate it when I get it.

Really, I can make my own pasta (and it's usually better.) A glass of single-malt (neat) is just as good sitting in my living room with a couple friends. I can enjoy a Royale with Cheese just as much as a burger from Shake Shack. And frankly I'd love to go outside and worry about my shoes getting muddy rather than about them getting run over.

But to start over, to break ALL of my habits that are tied to this style of living and actually make the switch…

It might take more than I've got.

I strive for the torpor of a lizard on a warm rock. Maybe that is why I loathe NYC, a loathing that has grown with each of my three stays there. There is a reason Jed's kinfolk told him California was the place to be, and why Disneyland is the happiest place on earth. The west is the best!

I live in NYC and answer no to all 3. I used to live in RI for a while but circumstances brought me back. Still trying to decide where my next city will be but I know I hate NYC, and this is from someone who was born and raised here. I'm a simple, mellow person and NYC is none of these things. All of my coworkers come from simple, mellow places and find that they love the hustle and bustle here and I find myself asking them questions about their hometown just to see if it would be a good fit for me.

My point wasn't that people actually want what Penelope described, but if you ask yourself just those three questions – you most likely are going to say "yes." Like, reading your horoscope (why, yes – I am funny, creative and sensitive. I must be a Leo/Pisces/Aquarius/Ox!)

I have lived in New York my whole life, and I would probably say no to at least 2/3 of these questions (that of course varies day-to-day). And yet? While eventually I would like to try living elsewhere, I love, love, love my city. I don't go for fancy dinners, or wear designer clothing (unless Old Navy is a designer). I work hard, and while I am not the VP of anything, I make a decent living. It ain't Sex and the City, but it's not a hovel, eke-out-an-existence either.

i agree that you don't need a high lifestyle to live well in NYC. it always annoys me to read blogs like this that describe NYC as a place for ultra-competitive, money-hungry, fashionistas–this applies to only specific parts of NYC, from what i understand. i think that's false. i think you can still survive, and be 'happy', if you make decent money and don't partake in luxuries. but, i say go ahead and let everyone believe this outmoded stereotype, so that it doesn't become more populated and so those currently live there can enjoy it. and no, i don't live there–never have, BUT i am leaving boston to live there–as soon as i get a job. it's just one of those places where whenever i am there, i feel that i belong, it feels right and it feels good. i realize the contradiction, but whatever. of course, maybe i'll hate it once i actually live there, but i must do it because it calls me. boston has bored me for 10 years–sick of the accents, yuppy, and difficult to meet people. and i am from new england, although not from massachusetts.

The whole idea of the game is happiness. There is no other trophy. If you aren't orienting your life to maximize your happiness you're doing it wrong. People with "interesting" lives spend them in airports, and alone in hotels. If you pursue money, fame, or status you will never be happy because it will never be enough. There will always be someone with a little bit more and that will drive you crazy.

This critique presumes that happiness is what is solely worthwhile in life, while Ms. Trunk's post is in no philosophical position to do so.

I would also say that *none* of us are in a philosophical position to do so, but that is not for pragmatic reasons…

i live an "interesting" life, and i don't spend it in airports. i did that in the earlier part of my career, but since have reveled in my everyday life here in nyc. "interesting" isn't always about moving about–interesting comes here, in many forms, every day. all one needs to do is walk out of their apartment, and they'll find it–and it often costs nothing but being. most of the exotic here comes from other people just being. we're not overstocked on one type of person (though sometimes bankers would fall into that category if i was to change my mind), and that makes for a very rich life here. optimizing isn't always about material things–we're that way about how we'd like our schools, our politics, and other intangibles. and we optimize because we know we have the brain trust (and yes, a very cooperative people) to do it.

some of the most magical things i've ever experienced have happened on this island. but no, it's not for everyone. that's why we have hotels and airports.

I was born and raised here and I've left for good three different times and came back in less than a year twice; the other time, I joined the Army, so it took 2.5 years before I came back, because that's what I signed up for. For me, optimization has always played a small part, but it's really the interesting:happy ratio that does it for me; the unpredictability of it all and the ability to reinvent one's self on a dime. I probably spend as much time hating living here as I do loving it, but it works for me.

Dellinger's comment (#2) betrays a stereotypical view of NYers picked up from TV and movies, not reality. Most NYers are neither rich nor rude; ambitious, hard-working and harried are truer stereotypes, but ultimately, the beauty of NY is that it takes a variety of personalities from a variety of places to make this place what it is. Love it, or leave it, I say!

And people that do not appreciate New York for what it is (a melting pot of people from all different walks of life who are following their dreams) do not belong in NYC to begin with…

I am currently in Miami attending grad school and there is not one day that I don't miss NYC. Born and Bred as well, it is hard to leave when you have been raised having the world at your fingertips, accustomed to the best of everything… Broadway, the Metropolitan Opera, Wall Street, Chinatown, K-Town, Coney Island, Brighton Beach, Statue of Liberty, the United Nations, countless museums and endless types of cuisine… Leaving makes you see and appreciate it all more.

But I also find it unhealthy to live in the same city your whole life, and different perspectives are what make us as individuals interesting, well rounded, and relatable people.

However, I feel that with the economy crashing as it is, corporations take advantage with young people who are driven and motivated, and work them to the ground (15 hour days) and spit them out when budget cuts arise…

I don't know how to say this without sounding like a pompous psycho, but I don't want to be at the top in my field. I want to create my own field and be the only one standing in it. That is how I want my contribution to the world to be. God and Seth G. said there was noone like me. It must be true. hahaha. I am an optimizer who puts a high premium on life without viccisstudes, so interesting is out for me since more often than not means ups and downs. One out of three is bad, so I'll ride this Oklahoma thing out a little while longer. hahahahahaha! Great post, and yes, nobody reads the comments. They're too fascinated by what they have to say to listen to anyone else who isn't famous.

What a timely post. I am about to travel to NYC next week for work and will visit a friend who has moved there. She is on her way to being one of the top in her field. Due to that, she gets paid a decent salary, can afford to live in a nice apartment the city. She can afford to experience most of what NYC has to offer.

She prefers interesting over happy and she is an optimizer. Most importantly she embraces the fast pace and energy of the city. She was never one to sit down and take it easy. NYC suits her personality.

As Penelope suggests in the comment section if you are sensitive to loud noises, bright lights, etc then NYC of course wouldn't be the best fit. Made me think about my friend, its like she's immune from the stress of lights, noise and general busyness. She doesn't even notice it.

P,
I am an optimizer who has gotten near the top of the optimization scale. The "trick" is to optimize by being in the suburbs of NYC and eventually working in the suburbs of NYC- at a city salary. You get to enjoy all the city culture, sports, shopping and restaurants wthout giving up a backyard with a pool, great schools (my school district is top 20 in the entire USA), plus I get great beaches in under 30 minutes….you might say the suburbs don't count…you also talked about trade offs…so maybe it is/
I got to work for two fortune 200 corps. in NYC before making the leap to a great company on LI….
My best friend has traded these things for the city lifestyle and he won't go back…so its really a matter of preference….but it is an option that many Gen-y should consider…Same goes for suburbs of Chicago, L.A., Miami, etc…All have great trade offs…
Food for thought…
Also, I don't know that all optimizers trade off happyness…I don't…
M

Where you are is the best place to be.. A place doesn't define your reality, you do. Defining yourself by locale or specific lifestyle situations is a self limiting behavior. No one ever changed the world for the better by living in a specific place.

OMG. I need to ask this. Did you just write about Mumbai, India there?

Penelope, commentors have no need to read others' comments; far too many would rather live inside their own insular world than open it up to the a rainbow of different perspectives. Safety over reality.

Optimizers? The best of everything according to whom?

The top of one's field? You mean the top of the fields that were the leaders in the financial meltdown? Yep, I wanna be like them.

Interesting or happy life? And I thought you can have both; silly me…

Native New Yorkers – talk about a skewed phrase – have been programmed to speak of our lives (I'm NY born even though I lived in CT for 20 years – lol, Fairfield County is now as much a borough of NYC as is Miami-Dade – and now live back on Lawn Guyland) in grandiose terms: If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. Our nation's first capital – uh, practically in a bar which in itself speaks volumes – NYC became the media capital only because of geography – NYC is closer to Europe than LA – and all the papers had to write something. So they wrote about themselves being the center of the world. Attaboys for everyone and dreams for everyone else.

Those who came here believed the hype and like the game of Post Office, re-told their own experiences using personal embellishments. And the legend grew.

So NYC became the center of the financial and "high society" universes (others too but somehow lumping fashion into the mix makes me conclude that most New Yorkers' choices of fashion are made without mirrors) and pretty soon others wanted to be like New York; dirty politics were practically invented here (not one of our proudest exports). We also became a target: 9/11 changed everything for many of us.

We make act tough but when a Presidential plane flies overhead and not even the New York Post knows about it, once tough New Yawkahs stain their wears and run around like chickens with their heads cut off; I'm reasonably certain this doesn't happen in CheeseLand or pretty much anywhere else. We walk past firehouses and police officers and finally realize (again, some but not all) that if nothing else, New York is a tough city with tough people willing to risk their lives for others (of course this happens elsewhere but we have more media outlets who write about it). No, we're not the same as others, we're better…sure. I think many are simply followers afraid to make their own path – it's safer to try the well worn roads that others before have taken. And I'd offer, boring as well. But how would one know when all they've known is the same dream as others?

It's not that New York is faster than other places but people and global media have come to believe that it is fast. The inherent problem with a city so large – and especially for NYC – is that for many, it's lonely going it alone; so you create a life that is fantasy full.

As others here have noted, happiness IS relative and has little to do with the Barbarians guarding the gate.

It's time to stop being afraid of yourself…

LOVED this post, Penolope! I think you may have also save me a billion dollars in therapy by explaining why I am never happy. I am a born and bred New Yorker and am living in L.A. and am a phenomenal optimizer. Hats off! It's this type of post that keeps me coming back for more.

oh.. come on.. what's with this 'optimizer' title..

It's a load of crap.. You aren't 'happy' because you chose not to be. You tell yourself will be happy 'when X happens' or 'when I get X'..

That's a cop-out, that your an 'optimizer', so you can't be in a better place, more at peace, live in the flow, enjoy the journey, don't tie your perceived happiness or fulfillment to an end result..

'Optimizers' as has been defined, or inferred to, in this article and the subsequent comments is truly an excuse metaphor.

No Idea why my name showed up as "funkright" mmm.

My mother always says "when you leave New York City, you ain't going nowhere." Of course, she lives in the suburbs now.

Penelope's definition of optimizer is an optimistic way of defining the insatiable.

While it's good to always move forward, there are some people who are chronically dissatisfied. They're always looking but never finding. They always want more, and usually it's at the expense of those in their lives.

There's something to be said for the hard-working, goal-oriented, yet complacent person who has the ability to be happy with life no matter what it brings. Because, in the end, no matter how hard we work or what goals we set, we're still at the mercy of the plan God set for us.

spoken like a true non-optimizer! I am not an optimizer either, it's alright.

My best friend is and I am often annoyed at her constant disatisfaction with her current standings. Lucky to have found an equally great (monetarily equal and creatively satisfying) job literally a day after being laid off (in the 3-months-ago environment) and not a week passes before she needs to be making more money or is looking for something better. I thought, how inappropriate. When I read this article I started laughing. She is an optimizer to the core, and I will say that she does have a great, exciting life. And is completely unhappy.

I really wish I took this quiz before i moved to NYC from the Midwest. Even better, they should have this quiz available for everybody at LGA and JFK, and i wonder how many people would be taking their cabs into the city.

After living here (in the area, actually), I hate NYC and the whole tri-state area with conviction. Even more so, I hate Brooklyn. It is probably the ugliest place on Earth. And i know what i am talking about – i've been to other 35 states and was born and raised in a foreign country. This place makes me miserable. Actually, i am finally leaving in a couple of months.

NYC-ers are a bunch of sorry weirdos that don't fit anywhere else in this country.

Is Time Out NY the sponsor for this post? :)

Good question! I was thinking of exactly the same thing. PT, have you changed your 'accept money, but don't tell' philosophy to reflect reality, or have you taken moolah from the city of NYC and Time Out New York.

From your earlier blog post, I wouldn't be surprised if you had been paid, and had refused to disclose this.

I've been living in Barcelona, Spain, for all my life, and I have always dreamed of moving someday to NYC; I was there on holiday for two weeks, and yes, I went to the tourist attractions but also wandered around Brooklyn, even the Bronx, trying to find the real NYC flavour… and yes, I found it, terribly disgusting, in some way, but terribly attractive… and now I'm trying to make a plan to move to New York in a near future. After all, Barcelona is already insanely expensive for the salarys we are paid here, so…

Two essays that you must read: Joan Didion's "Goodbye to All That" and Meghan Daum's "My Misspent Youth."

I've been in New York for 8 years and would leave tomorrow, if I could, and not look back.

the only downside is that it is much harder for UK citizens to get into the US then it is for US citizens to come to the UK!

That's because no one in the US wants to live in the UK. Supply and demand my friend.

It is far tougher to get into US, than to most other developed countries (even when comparing with other Western nations that face the threat of terrorism, if any). This is regardless of demand and supply. The bureaucracy and other government mechanisms are simply exhausting!

I guess I'm rare, I don't even want to visit New York.

"best thing that ever happened to them" doesn't mean it was easy. Life is full of difficult worthwhile pursuits. Don't blame such tripe on your religion.

Nobody here said it's not fun, enriching and wonderful. But none of that has anything to do with it being easy.

Indeed I contend that most things that better your life are the result of struggle, pursuit and accomplishment.

"not fit for marriage" is a truly low and foul thing to say of another human.

I strongly suggest sir that you re-read the book of Mathew.

Please do not judge Catholicism on the words of such people. They are merely themselves and would be thus under any heading.

Mike, thank you for saying what I was going to say:

1. "best thing that ever happened to them" doesn't mean it was easy. Nobody here said it's not fun, enriching and wonderful. But none of that has anything to do with it being easy.

2. Don't blame such tripe on your religion.

Dan, I don't see the link between your kids and your religion. I am sure that even some Muslims, Hindus and Mormons love their kids. Doesn't make it easy to rear them. You being born into, and/or believing in Christ does not make you a better father as opposed to one who believes in Krishna.

Loved it. Perfectly true from my perspective and dead on. And yes I lived in NYC. I did not have that much money either but that was no an impediment. The optimizer in me felt satisfied :). How did you come up or find about about the "optimizer category"?

Hello, I do not know whether this is a good place to post a general comments but as I am not abble to find a better one, I try it here!

I found your blog a few weeks ago, through a link from one of Slate's blogs, and I have been a great fan ever since.I love the way you write, your special mixture of dry humour, strong opinions and open emotions, and I love the contents of your posts. I have learned many captivating things trough your posts themselves, and through the links that you provide. It is quite unusual to have someone not only present her view of a topic, but also the research associated, and it is something that I really appreciate!
Thank you very much for this wonderful blog :-)
Emma

How is Slate?

Was my wording incorrect? English is not my mother tongue.

I love your blog and I am a 20 something who would love to live in NY! I'm from OC, but having moved around and been softened by the So Cal weather I think I wouldn't move there unless I was with a partner. xoxo

NYC is a cesspool, and a pit. And it is full of liberals. A meteor slamming into it would make it a much better place.

I must say that Penelope's article is dead on in most aspects…

I am born and raised in New York, my mother an immigrant who came from eastern europe with her family in her 20's, and my father who moved up from the south around the same time. Nevertheless, I have a drive and work ethic that is sometimes exhausting, and I am never happy just sitting in one place and not getting something done. And one thing that NY does to you is make you used to not settling for ANYTHING… you have the best of the best of the best at your fingertips… people that think they are rich cannot understand the wealth that you see in NY, families that have been part of building one of the largest economic centers of the world….

Many 20 somethings have moved to NYC in the past 5 years or so, I would say because of the recent growth in popularity due to safety and trendy movies such as Sex and the City and shows like Gossip Girl. I think that the aura of the city has changed; the "do or die" vibe has been replaced by the "trendy hipster trying to be uber-cool" mentality (not my thing or many other native ny'ers…. these transplants that think they are in a CW11 sitcom are the butt of endless jokes)…

However, hipsters aside, it offers the most of any city I have been to, including London, Los Angeles and Chicago… having the best of the best does come with a price… 1800 per month for a studio in the hood in brooklyn (and I mean hood… across the street from a methadone clinic and constant muggings) seems like a deal at the time because of our view of the city, but in hind-site, the 1 hour plus commute on the subway each way plus 20 minute walk would beat anyone down in 10 degree weather… so you decide.

Just wanted to say great job with the blog, today is my first visit here and I've enjoyed reading your posts so far :)
Juan

I just made my first visit to New York (I'm from Santa Fe) at the end of May. I was one of those people who had glamorized NYC from afar and once I was there, I couldn't understand why people want to live there, especially if you're from a wide-open Western state. I felt claustrophobic – all those buildings closing in on you and you can't see the way out. I did not find that people were rude at all, but the pace of life is extremely fast. Also, everyone seems to be "on the make" and I don't just mean for sex/romance – everyone is always trying to cut a deal, make a contact, get somewhere different than where they are. It was exhausting after awhile. After 6 days I was more than happy to go home.

I am definitely not an optimizer. I like my quiet life in my nice house on a quiet street, with my husband and child. My life is good. I am more fearful of bad things happening that could change it than I am anxious that I won't be able to make changes to upgrade it. Like a lot of young women I had harbored fantasies of moving to New York after college but fortunately got married and settled down pretty fast. I would never have made it in NYC – just spent a couple of miserable years (if that) and then gone home. It is not for everyone, most definitely. Young people sans family who are thinking about moving there – I strongly recommend an extended visit before making the leap. It is a fast, exciting city but there are a lot of very smart young people there waiting tables or working in clothing stores waiting for their life to start happening. People who, in other cities, would probably be at the top of their game with a family and a great career. It's the quintessential "small fish in a big pond" situation. If you want to have fun (which is not a bad goal in your early 20s), NYC seems great. If you want a home, family, and stability, maybe not. It's pretty far from the urban utopia it gets billed as, in my opinion.

If you don't want that constant scrambling and in-your-faceness, New York isn't for you. But I feel it's getting to the point where people with cultural or intellectual interests are going to be isolated and alone if they're not in a highly urban area, and maybe even if they're not withing spitting distance of NY itself.

Even with the internet, people's RL social and professional networks are becoming more important. You can't meet anyone umpteen dozen miles away, and it's getting so you can't get any work that way, either. And if you believe people like Richard Florida, it's going to be more and more difficult to make a living outside dense urban settings. Florida thinks we're heading for a socially segregated nation of laidback dull-normals with tree-shaded houses and backyards, and permanently keyed-up, on-the-make creatives and achievers, always crowding for elbow room – even inside their own heads.

I hope to hell he's wrong, but I don't see much evidence of it. Anyplace that isn't vibrant to the point of near chaos is quickly getting suffocated by mass market culture. Is it possible the information class are going to be refugees in their own country?

for me… interesting life is the foundation of my happiness. both are related to each other and are not seperate units. nyc is amazing!

Hey,

Well, I think I might have those qualities to some degree, but proabably not enough to thrive in the competition in NY.

Bit of a side note, I've recently been getting into learning percussion, and one of the things I have found in my youtube searching are the NY bucket drummers who busk in the subways there. Amazing, even the buskers over there are optimizers.

Would love to spend a few months there none the less even if not to live for a longer period.

I've been to NY, wouldn't want to live there (I'm too mellow and laid-back). Grew up in LA, currently living in SF East Bay (wouldn't want to live in SF), lovin' it here- although, I wish there were huge areas of forest right out my door, I love redwoods.

I have a combined household income of $85,000. I pay $1,200 rent for a 2 bedroom in a sucky neighborhood in the Bronx. Noise in the summer along with all the high crime. I have to pay for private school because despite Bloomberg's assertions the public schools stink. Let your good kids play outside? Fat chance; they pick up bad habits, get hurt or something to that affect. I loved to live here, but times keep changing and its truly hard to live here. Want to go to a museum? Packed with people with long waits for everything. Same for shopping and driving. This City only caters to the wealthy and only they can truly enjoy it.

You're not a New Yorker unless you were born and raised there. If you move to New York and become the bedrock of the town (Andy Warhol), the best you can be is an honorary New Yorker. Growing up with huge crowds on the street, kids from all over the world in your class, taking the subway by yourself at age 8, seeing drag queens, homeless people, and being bombarded with every other visual/olfactory/auditory delight you can imagine from the time you are born–DOES SOMETHING TO YOU. I am unlike all my suburban cousins. And so are all of you who moved to NYC for a job and now consider yourselves New Yorkers. You're not so forget that. Did you learn to drive at 16? Were you able to identify the sound of a cricket before the age of say, 21? You're not a New Yorker. On to rudeness. We New Yorkers love our town. We are the ones helping to carry the baby carriage up the subway stairs. The jerk who almost knocked me down while doing that? He's from London, or Dallas, or Toronto. Why is he such a jerk when he's so lovely at home? Because he thinks he needs to act like that to survive in the big bad city. New Yorkers are wonderful and helpful. They are the diplomats for their town and they kow it. The people who move there? Not so much. On to high standards. Yes, we love the best, that's the way it is. Yes, we're fast. Fast is not rude. Fast is fast. Learn the difference and speed up while you're at it. We like the A game. We like it better if you like it too. New York, 400 years and counting.

Lisa, I completely agree.

It may seem narcissistic or unfriendly to outsiders, that NYers are constantly repeating "You are not a New Yorker unless you were born here." But it's absolutely true. I'm even willing to expand the horizon and say that you are a New Yorker if you decide to raise kids here.

But you are NOT a New Yorker if you come here to live during your 20's and 30's. And saying so is triggering to NY natives; because we are constantly having to compete with you people for apartments, jobs, even walking space on the sidewalk, when you are not invested in our community; in the public school system; in the long-term development and family relationships that we grew up with and are attached to, whether or not we have abnormally strong ambition and drive.

And so, simply put, it is much more culturally sensitive to say "I currently live in New York", than "I am a New Yorker."

And also calling us rude is pretty rude. It's much nicer to say "what is considered polite there is different than in other part of the country."

Having either lived, worked, or schooled in NYC for over 12 years, I have to agree with this. Especially about the cost.

I was born in 1980 and grew up in the Times Square area, which was a lot different back then. As a child, I prided myself on my urbanity, my intellect, my sophistication and my artsiness. I'm not finding these things in the New York City of 2009. I went to high school for four years at an elite all-girls boarding school in Troy, NY, fifteen minutes outside of Albany. When I came back, both I and my city had changed.

What I loved most about Times Square growing up was its incorrigible wildness. It was as close to anarchy as one would ever get here in the States, and it was paradise. The rarefied air of the Upper East Side never seemed like New York to me. To me, New York was the postmodern abstract art of an abandoned building site, dilapidated and blanketed with graffiti. It was the streetwalker digging into her pocket to pay for another prostitute's dinner if she was broke. It was the bands of artists roaming city streets like packs of gypsies, dressed in clothing that did not imitate fashion but created it anew, painting and writing and sculpting inspired and original works that pushed the envelope for what could be done in art, not just for the sake of pushing the envelope, but for the sake of pushing the frontiers of human creative potential. When I was twelve, I enrolled on a full scholarship at Emma Willard School, the aforesaid elite all-girls boarding high school school in the suburbs of Albany, to get away from my abusive home. Other girls decorated their rooms with Elmo dolls and cheesy French art deco posters and flowered Laura Ashley sheets. I hung a picture of an art installation composed of a bra made of surgical masks and a pair of panties made with a Brillo pad at the crotch. This was New York to me. Now the Emma Willard girls, all grown up, have taken over. This is not a city I even want to excel in anymore.

New York was for the poor back then. It isn't anymore. Yes, it had its drawbacks- the drug dealers, the pickpockets, the muggers and criminals- but those of us who truly loved the city were able to take that with a grain of salt for the sake of the cultural and creative richness that such anarchy allowed to foster. I have suffered from a debilitating cancer of the soul provoked by the loneliness and despair I feel being surrounded by spoiled investment bankers and trust-fund "artists" who can never understand the wealth of life's experience that a girl who grew up having to fight for and earn everything she ever got might have accumulated, who can never value my scrappiness, my lower-middle-class sophistication, the whip-smart intellect I cultivate in concert with a poverty-originated consciousness of social justice and compassion for the suffering. Impoverished, disabled, female and biracial, I live outside of most current New Yorkers' conception of what is possible; most of them can't even fathom someone like me existing. My poverty hinders me from doing so, but, if I could, I would leave New York City so fast I'd leave a trail of flames burning in my tracks. There's gotta be somewhere I'd belong, somewhere where people don't venerate money and power as moral imperatives, somewhere where people have soul. New York has lost its soul. And it's lost my love.

How do you come up with so many creative ideas? :P Anyway….great post and interesting off course… ;)