There’s a huge market for telling women how to be happier. Maybe it’s because women read more than men. Or maybe it’s the discrepancy that women know when they are overweight and men don’t. Or the discrepancy that most men think they are good parents and most women think they need to be better parents. The list goes on and on, in a glass-half-empty kind of way.
In general, I think the strength of women is that they see things more clearly. Yes, it’s a glass-half-empty world for women, compared to men, but women should leverage their stronger grip on reality. So here’s my contribution to women and clarity. I am debunking five totally annoying pieces of advice I hear people give women all the time.
1. Take a look at the lists of best companies for women to work for
This is an advertising ploy, not a plan for you to run your life. Every single time there’s a list like this, women write to me from the companies on the list to tell me how much they suck for women. But it’s not like I need those emails. I can just look at senior management, which is almost always all men, and see that corporate careers are set up for a one kind of life: very focused, no other interests, except, maybe, oneself. And this is not all that appealing to most women.
So you can forget the lists. The bar is so low to get on the lists that which company is on and which company is off is statistically irrelevant to women planning their careers.
2. Get a book deal that lets you write about men you admire
Yes, it is exciting to get a book deal, but why do women spend years writing books that fawn over the men they work with? Here are some books by women I admire, and I can’t get over that they spent years researching and reporting on men doing what, in fact, these women would probably like to be doing themselves. Why not just dump the book idea and do the cool jobs you write about instead of pretending you’re not interested in that?
If you want to get paid to write about men, aspire to be Mary Gaitskill.
3. Marry a stay-at-home dad to give you more space to grow your career
Based on my own experience and some research I don’t believe men are happy in this role. Please, stay-at-home dads, do not write to me to say you’re happy. I understand that there are exceptions to this rule, and also that all those exceptions happen to be blogging. But on balance, I find that stay-at-home dads are actually talking about some other project they are doing that is either a) BS and then they are in denial that they are totally lost or b) not BS and then they are not stay-at-home dads but rather dads with flexible work schedules.
Meanwhile, no matter how much money a woman makes, most women try to find a guy who earns more than she does. So whether or not it's good for your career is a moot point; be true to yourself and admit you don't want a stay-at-home husband.
4. Join an all-women networking group
Women are less connected in the world than men are. Men do not drop out of work during their highest earning potential years to take care of kids. So they have better connections. And, in my own work experience, men have been extremely helpful. So why would you go to a group that self-selects for people with fewer connections? There are a million ways to slice the world for networking potential – by location, by interest, by experience, by goals. Why would you do it by sex?
More importantly, it’s clear that women are not particularly supportive of each other. Everyone is competitive, but there are more problems between two women than between two men or between a man and a woman.
I would like to tell you that this is outdated research and that with the post-feminist generation women are not so back-stabbing to each other. But it’s not true. Anne Manci‘s research at University of Wisconsin-Whitewater finds that the culture in the top ranks is still disturbingly slanted toward women taking down the best women. (Thanks for the link, Kristine.)
5. Don’t cry at work
Newsflash. Women cry a lot and men don’t. So let’s just stop telling women to be men at work. No point. People who do best in their careers are people who are their true selves.
And, I have first-hand research on this topic, because I have cried at all levels of my career. To be fair, I cry mostly when I have PMS. But whatever. PMS is just your body telling your brain that you need to start crying about the stuff that you’ve been ignoring all month.
Here’s the big secret about crying though. Men who are secure with themselves and their position in the world actually deal with women crying just fine. So any guy at work who cannot deal with you crying needs to get some therapy in order to be more self-assured. You, on the other hand, are doing just fine with those workplace tears.





This essay makes several very good points.
However, I'd add a caveat to the fifth point. There are different kinds of crying. Crying because of something going wrong in your personal life or because of something stressful is acceptable. Crying in order to manipulate others and get your way is completely unacceptable.
Posted by Jim C. on January 12, 2009 at 11:41 am | permalink |
Yup!
I had a coworker cry during one meeting because she was getting frustrated dealing with some work issues. I didn't feel sorry for her, I felt manipulated and thought she was a psycho. Pick your crying, ladies!
Posted by workinglady on January 12, 2009 at 3:13 pm | permalink |
hmm. that's akin to saying, "man up!" perhaps she had more reasons to cry than you know, or that she may have revealed to her. i doubt that if she was truly crying due to frustration with work issues that she intended to manipulate you. perhaps look into why you felt that way.
Posted by thatgirlinnewyork on January 13, 2009 at 8:20 pm | permalink |
Grow a pair, boys! Not everyone is out to manipulate you.
Posted by anony on February 28, 2010 at 6:54 am | permalink |
This advice really resonates with me. Thank you for a great post!
I've never actually seen anyone give the advice in point 2 though. I agree that it happens but I'm sure that it's something women are advised to do. I'd love more info if I'm wrong.
@JimC I agree with you but in my experience women do not often cry in order to manipulate others – they cry because something is stressful and sometimes it gets interpreted as manipulative.
Posted by Caitlin on January 12, 2009 at 11:48 am | permalink |
I have seen women cry on purpose to try manipulate men into doing what they want. It's a really sucky thing to do because most people see right though it and it gives anyone who cries at work a bad reputation. I would guess though that these women don't get very far when it comes to a career, so they get weeded out pretty fast. They aren't the kind of people anyone wants to work with. A good sign that the crying is to manipulate instead of from stress is when they make a big deal out of it. "You made me CRY!"
I also second the points people are making about crying to express anger because women aren't supposed to be angry. The only times I've cried at work have been when I was REALLY pissed. When I feel it coming on, I just remove myself from the situation as quickly as I can.
Posted by Gretchen on January 12, 2009 at 2:03 pm | permalink |
I agree with Caitlin about crying. The only time I came close to crying at work, I was pissed off and knew I couldn't yell or swear. I got out of the situation as quickly as possible.
Posted by E.D. on January 16, 2009 at 8:12 am | permalink |
Men are more successful because they save tears for private. Nobody likes a sobbing female. Truth be known, if you were to ask anyone how they react to a female crying they would probably want to gouge out the offending blubberer's eyeballs.
Posted by Polly Williams on January 24, 2009 at 2:54 pm | permalink |
I can't speak for all women, but I know that when I have cried at work, it is because what I'm feeling is actually anger–and there are very few socially acceptable ways for women to express anger. In the end, though, I've chosen to try to express my anger for what it is, and to do so in a way that communicates my feelings without blowing up. Because anger is just an emotion, and why am I supposed to limit myself to only some of the emotions that all people feel?
It's a vicious circle. We're not allowed to be angry, because that's bitchy, so we sublimate that. However, if that comes out as tears, we're weak. My conclusion long ago was that I'd rather be bitchy than weak. Does that mean I never cry? Of course not. But it means that I have less need to, because I've given myself permission to have a broader range of expression. I wish more women did this. It might help make crying a non-issue.
Posted by KateNonymous on January 12, 2009 at 11:59 am | permalink |
This is a really important point. Women getting angry at work is perceived in a much more negative light than men getting angry at work.
So for women, crying as an expression of anger is a smarter move than having a loud outburst as an expression of anger.
-Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 12, 2009 at 12:08 pm | permalink |
I agree–which is why when I do express anger, I try to do it without blowing up. And generally anger builds, so if I start expressing it early, I'm better able to remain calm.
Posted by KateNonymous on January 12, 2009 at 12:22 pm | permalink |
This is so true! For me, I was taught not to cry, but then I became incredibly pissed off at work at few times. It was either blow up or let a few tears roll out. I chose tears.
Posted by Froggylou2 on January 12, 2009 at 5:08 pm | permalink |
This is exactly it. When I feel I'm being marginalized by the men I work "with", I tend to get frustrated and sometimes cry. This is deemed as me "taking things too seriously" and "being too emotional."
The times I remain calm and direct, I'm accused of lying and insubordination. I have communication issues and my memory of events is considered "faulty" if it doesn't match up with theirs.
Yeah, it's an abusive relationship, but I still HAVE a job. That's saying something, right?
Posted by Lane on January 13, 2009 at 2:41 pm | permalink |
At least in all-women networking situations the meat market vibe is diminished so you don't have to wonder if someone is going to ask you on a date or offer you a job.
Posted by Susan on January 12, 2009 at 11:59 am | permalink |
Good points. I particularly support #4; it's pointless to focus networking in those terms. Relevant networking comes from like interests and opportunities, not the fact that people have the same sex. Specially women (as you point out).
When I was younger I never worried about how my career might be impacted by the fact that I am a woman. These days I see some of the challenges more clearly. I have, however, found a perfect solution for the personal/family support issue. Marry another woman. I know many men who empathize with women's concerns and issues, but no man will "get it" quite like your wife. :)
Posted by Livia Labate on January 12, 2009 at 12:18 pm | permalink |
Well written Penelope. Just another reason why you can't always listen to what other people say or what you read in the news. Just do what you're about!
Posted by Dan Schawbel on January 12, 2009 at 12:24 pm | permalink |
What if you're a dude who has cried at work? Is it bad that I used to take breaks and go sit behind a tree and cry? Personally, I've worked with women nearly my entire career and I'm the only one who is ever crying at work.
Posted by V Sellers on January 12, 2009 at 12:28 pm | permalink |
I think I said this the last time. I can tell you put a lot of time into your posts – like you reference in your blog guide – the time you take to build the links. I visit them all. I've never heard of Mary Gatskill or Tim Ferriss. I think I might be living under a rock. So, most of what you write I find very helpful. Your stuff moves me down the road, and I guess when I read posts like this I feel less alone.
Posted by jenx67 on January 12, 2009 at 12:40 pm | permalink |
I agree with all the points, as they ressonate with my personal experience. However, I'd add a caveat to the issue of women's only network groups. While I'd strongly recommend that all women join any network group that makes sense to them, especially those that include well connected men and women, I'd also recommend trying an all women's one particularly in a male-dominated industry.
I belong to one and gain so much from it professionally.
The advantages: (a) less of a meat market as mentioned above. But also (b) a chance to build confidence doing networking things, which you can apply to the broader male-dominated networking situations; (c) an opportunity to learn from people who have to overcome similar obstacles as you. And, (d) if you're more senior in the industry, a chance to help younger women succeed which makes you feel good, and helps with confidence too.
Posted by Wendy on January 12, 2009 at 12:56 pm | permalink |
Finally! Thanks for this post, I'm glad to see those 'best companies for women to work for' lists are all really just bs.
I cry when I'm extremely angry, and also when I'm really stressed. So I have cried in front of a few bosses. Most of them were enlightened enough to understand that crying is just a reaction to something, and not your identity.
I've been getting crap from men since I worked at Chic-Fil-A and despite the fact that I was faster in the kitchen than any of the guys, they always forced me to do the register and look cute for the customers. In the meantime, all the guys would look at our butts through the sandwich shoots while they worked in the kitchen.
But it's life. Post-feminist or not, men and women are treated differently at work and I'm tired of people telling me otherwise.
Posted by Susan on January 12, 2009 at 12:57 pm | permalink |
In regards to #1, I say ignore all lists of 'best places to work.' They are all just marketing ploys. I used to work for a company that was perpetually making these lists and it was more an example of how great our PR lady was than how good a company we were. People were leaving left and right because of poor leadership, but our PR lady would practically brow-beat us to vote in these surveys so that our company would win "best workplace" contests. They would even go so far as to post "Don't forget to vote!" posters in each bathroom stall!
Posted by The Office Newb on January 12, 2009 at 12:59 pm | permalink |
Thank you for the post. I have cried a few times at work due to anger at the situation. I then get extreamly embarrassed after the fact because I know others can see it as weak. Are there any tips you have about how to stop the crying, if you feel it is going to start, at work? Walk out of the meeting to collect yourself?
Posted by Allison on January 12, 2009 at 1:07 pm | permalink |
Maybe you should do a poll about stay-at-dads.
Posted by lizriz on January 12, 2009 at 1:11 pm | permalink |
Great idea. Thanks. Stay tuned for that.
–Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on January 12, 2009 at 2:10 pm | permalink |
Cry away, but not in front of colleagues. Publicly losing emotional control, whether it's crying or an obscenity-laced tirade, will hurt your career. Maybe not today or the next day, but it leaves the impression that you can't function under stress. Suck it up and cry later in the bathroom.
Posted by Dan on January 12, 2009 at 1:17 pm | permalink |
(a) Ah, that everyone could always control the timing their emotional outbursts, of which crying is one.
(b) The after-effects of crying are, on many of us, perfectly obvious. Not sure what the real difference is.
Posted by KateNonymous on January 12, 2009 at 2:19 pm | permalink |
So wear powder and powder the cheeks.IF anyone asks, say you have allergies. And if you can't control your emotions long enough to get to the loo, you need another job or maybe therapy.
Posted by Barbara on January 13, 2009 at 6:00 pm | permalink |
All-women networking groups are a very mixed bag. In general, I agree that many aren't my cup of tea, but as several commenters point out, sometimes they're a safe place for women who aren't into the networking swing of things yet. Also, as Wendy said, some professional groups are excellent – and often include men in their membership, even though they may be nominally "women-focused."
Interestingly, my doctor (wonderful woman who stays really well-connected with current research) told me that women's brains actually react differently to other women than to men, and also differently than men react to each other. In brief, a woman's amygdala (fight-or-flight, aggression) actually "lights up" on an MRI when she's in the presence of other women. So there's apparently real neurological reasons for the ways in which women tend to tear each other down. (Sorry, the study is still in progress, so I can't cite it.)
As I said to her, it's a sad state of affairs if we can't override our reptilian brains at this point.
Great post – thanks!
Posted by Grace Judson on January 12, 2009 at 1:30 pm | permalink |
@KateNonymous- I'm the same way. I have no idea how to handle anger and have barely reached the point of being able to deal with stress. So I cry. But it takes a lot over a long time to get me there, and it's always the stupid things that set me off.
Prime Example: Last week, I had just gotten settled into my new apartment, had a huge company meeting, helped with some collateral design on a tight deadline, had to remember to run/strength train so that I'll be ready for a marathon in April and still had to remember to pay my bills. I got a phone call from the apartment office telling me that my [bitchy/prissy] new upstairs neighbor complained about my dog whining during the day. So I sat in the freight elevator and cried. [Bathroom not private enough.]
@Allison- I'm with you. I need some guidance on how to fight back the tears, because sometimes I can't even make it out of my desk before tears are gushing.
Thanks, Penelope, for addressing that issue. Maybe one day people will really understand how exhausting it is to try to balance all of these things without losing our true selves to the stress.
Posted by Paige on January 12, 2009 at 1:50 pm | permalink |
A few years ago I read some research about book discussion groups, and how they tend to be all women. Apparently in coed groups, even if it's spouses or family members, women were not as open in their discussions of the book. Wish I could cite a source, I think I may have read it in the NY Times. Anyhow, the gist of it was that many women feel more comfortable speaking their minds in the presence of other women. So although you may be in for a back-stabbing catfight, join where you feel most comfortable.
Posted by prklypr on January 12, 2009 at 1:51 pm | permalink |
"Hear hear" on the best places to work lists. I couldn't agree more!
And on the crying note (which seems to have resonated a lot with women here), I agree with a lot of other women here. It comes out at a point of EXTREME frustration and anger after every other means of expressing these things has failed. And Penelope is right. Men who are secure with themselves and their place in the world react just fine. I've learned that a man's reaction to your tears says a lot about him…no need for women to feel guilty about being normal. I don't believe in being manipulative, and nor do any of the women who I respect.
For men or women who think they are being manipulated, there's no need to be. A man being manipulative with his anger and aggression is no different from a woman doing the same with her tears. Use your head…women are just as transparent and you can easily see through their drama. This I say from experience.
Posted by pragzz on January 12, 2009 at 2:23 pm | permalink |
"It comes out at a point of EXTREME frustration and anger after every other means of expressing these things has failed."
Exactly.
I saw this happen to a co-worker of mine at my first job and I didn't get it at first. She wasn't trying to manipulate anyone. It was sad really after I finally understood her situation or at least part of it. Men and women are wired differently – another good reason I read this blog.
Posted by Mark W. on January 12, 2009 at 8:03 pm | permalink |
The crying bit is interesting because while I hated when my first boss cried constantly at work, I haven't been able to refrain from the occasional cry in later positions. I feel crying puts me at a disadvantage, which just makes me more frustrated. I've never had a male boss make me feel bad for crying, however.
Posted by Rebecca on January 12, 2009 at 2:31 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
In Number 5, I believe you should have replaced Crying with "Be Emotional". I kicked-butt (if I may say so myself ;)) by showing those "super-cool and corporate types" (men and women) that I can do both together – "Think Smart AND Accept my Emotions". It is truly ONE awesome thing women have that works in their favor – if they tap into it, that is.
And you are SO right – trying to be a man (something you are not) at work totally messes us up – on the outside and the inside. Nothing scares the living daylight out of people more than "Authenticity". I have never lost any respect at work for having shed a few tears :)
And Number 4 is so so true. Great post Penelope!
Posted by Maya on January 12, 2009 at 2:36 pm | permalink |
Good post.
A quote from the first link (NPR article) -
"Girls have an easier time with reading or written work, and it's not a stretch to extrapolate [that] to adult life," Brizendine says. Indeed, adult women talk more in social settings and use more words than men, she says."
Exceptions exist as they always do.
Posted by Mark W. on January 12, 2009 at 3:53 pm | permalink |
"PMS is just your body telling your brain that you need to start crying about the stuff that you’ve been ignoring all month."
Put that quote on a bumper sticker!!
Posted by HR Wench / Jenn Barnes on January 12, 2009 at 4:08 pm | permalink |
Agree.
Posted by Rebecca Gonzalez on January 13, 2009 at 11:26 pm | permalink |
I think it's interesting that you say women want to find a man who makes more money. That makes sense to me. Until two years ago, my husband made more money than me. Now I do. Not a lot more. But he knows it's more and it really bothers him. Not because he wants me barefoot and pregnant, but (I think) it's because that was his thing. I (like a lot of women) run the show at home. That's my thing. I'm in charge. He made more money. That was his thing. He was the primary bread winner (even if I was earning bread, too). So I took this spot, even though it doesn't feel any different to me. But I'm still in charge.
Often, I kind of wish he'd get a little raise and make a little more than me so he'd feel better. I wonder if that's why other women want a higher earning spouse. Because THAT's not an issue. Reverse the roles and it becomes an issue.
Posted by GenerationXpert on January 12, 2009 at 4:28 pm | permalink |
Pennelope: As a proud dad of 3 fun/outstanding daughters I have to agree strongly with all of your conclusions. But #5 can be the most fun. As a consultant, I'm occasionally in settings where women execs cry. Means zip to me. . . just another fact of human life. What's fun is how the male execs absolutely go bonkers at tears. Half the time, I just go on with the conversation or whatever. Eventually one of the guys gets around to asking me how I just waded through the tears. It's usually instructional–at the level of "what's the big deal?" Do you usually go bonkers at tears.
Maybe that's the best way to face up to the Jihadists? They're all male.
Posted by Dan Erwin on January 12, 2009 at 5:12 pm | permalink |
thanks, dan. perhaps that's a challenge to the men reading–what is it about a woman crying that freaks you out? don't tell us that it's about crying not being "appropriate" in the workplace, or disruptive to a domestic dialogue. we've established that many women cry for reasons other than to be manipulative, so what is it? column idea?
Posted by thatgirlinnewyork on January 13, 2009 at 1:08 pm | permalink |
Penelope
Whilst I agree with the logic of avoiding a self-selecting group which is not well-networked, I think you need to update your research on back-stabbing, and women's and men's perceptions of women in the workplace.
If the whole research paper is not your cup of tea, see Herminia Ibarra's recent research profiled in HBR's January 2009 issue. She finds more positive developments than 'the catfight continues' and explores the 'visioning' gap in women's skill set.
Oh and on crying in the workplace, I have to disagree. It is far more effective to relate to the group you are with in the language that the group understands. It is not important to behave like they expect your gender to be; it is important to know maturely how to behave in different situations. I once had a great boss, who saw me crying after a frustrating day with manufacturing guys, and on whom, I am sorry to admit, I once chucked a glass of fountain Pepsi in anger. Nothing upset our relationship. In public, we supported each other, no questions asked. He remains a great friend even after 12 years.
Besides, heard this one?
To everything, turn, turn, turn..
A time to be born, a time to die
A time to plant, a time to reap
A time to kill, a time to heal
A time to laugh, a time to weep.
Works throughout life. Work is no exception.
Posted by Shefaly on January 12, 2009 at 5:22 pm | permalink |
This is great. However, it's a shame chicks still need to engage in catfight tactics. It's sad and a little demoralizing. It only makes me wonder if that's the reason why my own relationships with women (my age) always end up broken…
Posted by Raven on January 12, 2009 at 5:41 pm | permalink |
I've been impressed with the networking groups in which some of my women colleagues participate. They seem to be very helpful in finding new business among them as well as serving as a support group. These groups may not be as effective as the Old Boys Network, but since I don't belong to an Old Boys Network, it seems like these all-women networking groups serve a real purpose for their members.
Posted by Norman on January 12, 2009 at 6:19 pm | permalink |
(Here via Twitter)
I actually attended a women in leadership program a few years ago and found that it was all similar to what's on this list. It didn't feel right and I never finished the program.
Thanks for a great post!
Posted by alison on January 12, 2009 at 8:03 pm | permalink |
I never cry at work but everyone always comes in to my office to cry. Why is that?
Posted by melanie gao on January 12, 2009 at 9:25 pm | permalink |
People must feel safe with you.
Posted by Hannah on December 17, 2009 at 6:15 am | permalink |
I love #1 on ignore the lists of Best Companies for Women to Work at. I've worked at several Fortune 500 companies myself and can easily attest to it. These are the companies where the employees constantly state that they wish they worked at the same company that was written about in the paper or on these lists—when the reality is quite different.
Posted by Ann on January 12, 2009 at 9:30 pm | permalink |
In regards to #4, yes, we women are horrible working with each other. We nitpick, back-stab, gossip and are petty. Instead of joining together and working in a manner beneficial to our gender, we plow ahead individually, against each other, and many times to the detriment of all involved.
I previously worked in a traditionally male-dominated environment. The few women working there were hired at much lower positions even though many of us did much of the higher positioned men's work. This was a private, non-profit organization so it could get away with such practices.
Instead of banding together to better their situation and insist upon fairer practices, each woman fought only for herself. They begrudged any betterment someone else received that they did not. This was particularly true of the women that had worked there for decades. They certainly didn't want some young, driven woman coming in and achieving something that took them 20-30 years to do, simply because back in their day women just didn't have the opportunity.
You may think I'm talking about a job I held a decades ago. Nope. I quit working there just five years ago.
Posted by avant garde designer on January 12, 2009 at 10:44 pm | permalink |
Love it! Can't wait to get to the office tomorrow and turn on the waterworks.
You've given me a reason to get out of bed in the morning! Believe me, that's an accomplishment.
Posted by Do You Hear Voices? on January 12, 2009 at 11:12 pm | permalink |
From a male perspective, I have seen women cry at work many times and it does not bother me. As to the issue of whether they are being manipulative, I have not seen that occur or at least never perceived that a woman was crying to be manipulative.
Usually, it is due to a stressful work situation. Men and women respond differently to external pressures. To ignore this fact is to admit one has zero knowledge of human nature.
Us males do not always respond well to stress either. For example, one time I witnessed two guys almost fight each other during a revenue sharing disagreement. This occurred off site, they were sales guys, and alcohol was involved, but I have never seen women physically threaten one another. I have seen guys who slam their hands on tables in response to stress. Never seen a woman act in that manner either. Generally, I find women to be harder workers than men but sometimes they get caught up in details without seeing the bigger picture. That is a generalization, but it is based upon my personal observation and experience. I have also noticed that some women just cannot get along with one another at all. I have no idea why, but I have seen it numerous times.
Posted by agpc on January 12, 2009 at 11:48 pm | permalink |
Regarding women focusing on details instead of big picture – what I see is that if someone disagrees with a woman's big picture, she has to have the details down cold to defend it. So women spend more time making sure the details are 100% accurate in case they get attacked later.
The real challenge is learned how to deal with the attack on your big picture without turning towards the details. When you have to defend yourself with details, you've just lost the power battle.
Posted by KMS on January 13, 2009 at 2:05 pm | permalink |
Looks like people are focusing on the crying so I'll add my box of Kleenex™ to the mix.
The time, place and purpose of crying matter more than crying per se.
Cry during a meeting when people disagree with you as an underling or influencer without power? Take it to the bathroom or go to the corner for a time out.
Crying during a meeting because you don't know what to do and you're the boss? if you have a supportive team and you inspire them generally, a box of tissue and a moment of quiet is called for.
Are you the peon who just got peed on within earshot of everyone about the work you have to do in your public cubicle? Cry a little. Go to the bathroom, cry some more. And find a way to get out of there permanently.
Sometimes crying is a manipulation or a sign of weakness and yeah, men should be cool headed about both of those things at work if they want any sort of success.
Posted by Gib Wallis on January 13, 2009 at 12:36 am | permalink |
This post was great! I especially appreciated tip #5. I've always been afraid to cry at work and this year it especially took it was especially difficult because I've been going through a divorce and trying to be more assertive at work. Neither of which have been easy, but I didn't want to look weak or make anyone uncomfortable.
Posted by Natalie on January 13, 2009 at 12:43 am | permalink |
Crying at work? It's about having the courage to be real. And if that means angry, bring it on. Great post, very thought-provoking.
Posted by Marsha Keeffer on January 13, 2009 at 1:01 am | permalink |
I blogged about crying at work too (http://www.shementor.com/blog/entry/47547/dont-be-a-crybaby-how-you-ask), and the strongest private feedback I got from women was the "tears of anger, not hurt" point. Interesting that the same comments from women are made here. As a "crybaby" myself, all I've ever been successful with are coping mechanisms – NEVER actually preventing myself from actually crying. It's just how I'm made (and clearly, how a LOT of other women are made, too).
Phyllis R. Neill
Posted by Phyllis R. Neill on January 13, 2009 at 5:57 am | permalink |
I don't see crying as a weakness at all.
I cry embarrassingly easily. Happy. Sad. Angry. Any of those can set me off. But in reality I'm a very competent and stable person. I'm able to handle difficult situations much easier than many of my counterparts who don't show emotion. Better yet, I'm often the one who comes up with the solution.
For some, crying is a necessary release. It's like taking a long, deep breath.
Posted by dl on January 13, 2009 at 7:36 am | permalink |
Right, but if you'r frequently losing control of your emotions at work, your colleagues are going to wonder why. It seems like an indulgence, and that others are just supposed to observe or tolerate it, and I'm not so sure that you want to be viewed as the emo-chick.
Posted by Barbara on January 13, 2009 at 6:06 pm | permalink |
Mary Gaitskill rocks.
Posted by RoseMarie on January 13, 2009 at 7:59 am | permalink |
I just attended a Women's Affinity Group meeting last week, where they invited several Senior Level Female Executives. They talked to points 4 and 5 specifically, and when asked the majority of them had either no family, or had spouses who had taken a step back (maybe not a atay at home dad, but certainly not career oriented) so that they could be successful in their careers.
In my opinion the men that I work with have less issue with crying at work than the women. It's the female management that perpetuates the "no crying at work" rule.
Posted by Melissa on January 13, 2009 at 9:30 am | permalink |
THANK YOU for #4. All women networking groups suck big time in my experience. I've attended two and liked neither – one group can't get along (it's not about being in business, apparently, it's about never hurting anyone's feelings and everyone talking to each other every day and "supporting" each other and discussing their feelings and hugging a lot – ick) and the other is the "low level women's pretentiousness association" (nuff said). No longer wasting time with either – and you are right. Women aren't connected enough, and if you spend time in all women's groups you are spending time with the low end of the employment pool.
Re backstabbing, I've learned recently that expecting women colleagues to do their jobs competently is deemed "backstabbing" while knowing, and covering for, lies and omissions is deemed "supportive" and "being a good friend." So, guess I'm a female a-hole. And glad of it, if that is how it has to be.
Posted by MJ on January 13, 2009 at 9:34 am | permalink |
A small piece of probably obvious career advice to the other men here: make sure you always have a box of tissues in your office. I'm not flustered by women crying at work, but I am empathetic. I have found that most women greatly appreciate an offer of a box of tissues. It seems to diffuse the situation and show that you understand the need to cry and are willing to accommodate it, rather than try to shut it off. I'm an HR professional, so I probably am in situations that result in more crying than many. But the principle has held when I have been in non-HR positions as well. And I've never thought the less of any woman that has cried at work; but I have lost tons of respect for men that have gone on profanity laced tirades in the office.
Posted by ScottS on January 13, 2009 at 9:52 am | permalink |
I'm going to double-comment and add that in all women groups or all women business circles I feel like I have 5 heads. I'm full time and always have been, I work with men, I've never for a single moment of my life been of the 'hugs, phone calls, "OMG are you happy, are you OK, do you want to talk about your feelings?"' type of femininity. I'm kind of like a guy with female anatomy. So I'm a square peg and being a square peg sucks too – you don't fit in with the "OMG let's talk" women or the men (eew, you aren't a guy!). So, maybe the female square pegs have even more advice to ignore? I don't know.
Posted by MJ on January 13, 2009 at 9:54 am | permalink |
@ agcp
I completely agree with you about women getting more involved in details and not focusing on the big picture. My only regrets in my career so far have to do with paying more attention to the trees and forgetting the forest. I have finally resolved to work smarter not harder going forward.
Regarding the post from Penelope: I used to hate office politics but now I excel at them and because of that don’t see crying as a way to advance my agenda.
Posted by Leslie on January 13, 2009 at 11:53 am | permalink |
Good advice, all of it true. I feel especially strongly about the networking piece. Some supposedly pro-woman organizations I have been involved with were either unhelpful (due to the lack of connections, as you mention), or operated by women who were more interested in staying at the top than supporting those of us closer to the bottom. On the other hand, some of my greatest mentors and connections have been men. That's obviously not to say that the opposite can't be true in either situation. But I am sick of hearing about pro-woman organizations that purportedly exist solely for the professional advancement of women, and end up being nothing more than a social club for women who have already made it on their own.
I love your posts (even the ones I don't agree with). Keep 'em coming!
Posted by Barrister Neko on January 13, 2009 at 11:58 am | permalink |
Yes! I noticed that with our local "low level woman's pretentiousness club" – the ladies in charge (and believe me, they were not girls or women but "ladies") kept a very clubby feel to things. The in crowd ran the networking breakfasts and introduced the speakers, and if you weren't already in the in crowd, they'd never invite you. Oh puke. If you are over 13 then you need to get over junior high.
Posted by MJ on January 13, 2009 at 12:15 pm | permalink |
Yes, the "best places for women to work" thing is stupid. Most of them involve things like "good onsite day care". That's great, but what about those of us who don't have kids? The list makers pick one thing and one thing only, and if that doesn't fit you, you're better off looking elsewhere.
And women's networking groups – AWFUL. There was one here which didn't do any 'networking' I could see, though it did have yoga (in a town with yoga places on every street corner), and seminars on things like how speaking nicely to snowflakes makes them melt in a prettier way than yelling at them. (I only wish I were kidding about any of this.) The owner of this place charged people $100 a month for this. Not surprisingly, it went out of business after a year.
Posted by Renee on January 13, 2009 at 12:04 pm | permalink |
I love point #5, particularly the "secret" about men who aren't OK with women crying at work. I found it pretty funny that some men, who obviously aren't OK with workspace tears, immediately spoke up to say certain motivations for crying are fine, but others are not. This perspective just confirms that women are unfairly seen as overly dramatic, skilled actors. Do men really think we can cry when we want to and block the tears at will? Please! We have talents, but I don't think manipulative crying-at-will is one of them.
Posted by Kristin T. on January 13, 2009 at 12:14 pm | permalink |
The only advice I've ever heard is #5, and I agree with it. No one should cry at work!! Of course, we shouldn't be browsing the internet at our leisure, either. Point being – shit happens; we don't always abide by what we should and should not be doing. If you cry at work once in a blue moon, don't sweat it. If it's a regular occurance, you're either at the wrong job or need some therapy (or both), because anything that makes you cry that much – be it out of anger or frustration or a general weepy disposition – isn't healthy.
And I'd really love to read some posts with less projecting, Penelope. Not all stay-at-home dads are miserable; the ones who aren't miserable are not the huge anomaly you make them out to be. Not every woman feels entitled to being "taken care of" by her man or even aspires to that kind of lifestyle/marriage. Believe it or not, there are some really happy, mutually nurturing and productive marriages out there which defy traditional gender roles. My husband and I married each other knowing he would never make as much money as me; he never has, he never will. I knew when we had children it would be tough for me; tougher for me than him. It's never been an issue for us! Of course you're going to imply that he's delusional or secretly resenting me, but that's just a result of number 4, the inability for women to be supportive of each other, right?? Again, I've never had that problem. But maybe it's because I don't look at the people I meet as mere leverage. Authentic relationships – with colleagues, with one's spouse, with friends – may be where true success lies.
Life is not out to get you.
Posted by Faryn on January 13, 2009 at 12:33 pm | permalink |
Believe it or not, there are also MEN who use tears to manipulate people. Well, at least in their personal lives. I briefly dated a couple of them. Emphasis on the word "briefly"!
That said, I (a woman) was visibly on the verge of tears once with a client (a man) because I was extremely frustrated — the client's company was not holding up its side of agreed-on actions, making it difficult if not impossible for me to do a good job. Result: I earned the client's respect and our relationship improved 100%. Go figure.
Posted by Kim C. on January 13, 2009 at 2:21 pm | permalink |
Sad to say, but I've found that all-women networking or meeting groups don't achieve as much or aren't as fulfilling, as most co-ed ones. I'm 100% behind you there, PT. Part of it is just because they aren't taken as seriously – by outside groups, or the women in them themselves.
Posted by Lane on January 13, 2009 at 2:52 pm | permalink |
I think the discussion about crying at work is fascinating. I've always lived by the rule that you don't cry in public, period (exceptions might be funerals or something). BUT, I do know how frustrating this rule is to live by and have been very close to shedding tears at work. I agree 100% that the tears want to come when I am very angry or very frustrated. The thing that sucks is that crying/verge of crying makes it impossible to for me to speak and therefore I can't respond to the situation like I want. I usually sit in silence "sucking it up" and forcing myself not to cry.
The one time this happened at work I requested to meet with my boss again about the situation after I'd calmed down, but I wonder if it would've helped to just cry and then address the situation right then after I got over the tears? I just don't think it's acceptable to cry at work unless you're going through a personal tragedy.
Should we expect to men to accept our tears calmly (or be in control of their emotions in response to tears) when crying in and of itself is not really a calm emotion? Why shouldn't men turn the question around and expect women to keep themselves under control? I'm just curious because I don't find angry outbursts by men an acceptable workplace practice. So if tears are woman's version of angry outburst, should we feel free?
Posted by Dara on January 13, 2009 at 4:08 pm | permalink |
I'm with you on all-women networking groups. I'm a member of one now, but only because I've found useful resources through it, not job leads. Interests and industry are a stronger basis for connection than gender.
I've never cried at work. When I felt the need to cry once (personal matter, not due to work), I left the building. But then, I don't cry in my personal life either. Find another outlet for your anger or tears. When I get frustrated or angry, I take out a pad and write it all out until the storm passes. No good comes of tears from anyone.
Posted by LC on January 13, 2009 at 4:10 pm | permalink |
I've worked with a lot of ego-maniac men (who made me cry) and back-stabbing women (who just irritated me w/ their time-wasting). It's been nearly 10 years since I've been in the corporate environment, and I STILL get angry thinking about those situations that made me cry. Ugh.
On the flip side, it is a true and unforgettable blessing to work with a supportive, intelligent woman or a secure, understanding man. I've experienced both to differing degrees.
My current "work" (volunteer) experience comes from ministry, where I'm still learning to work the system. The rules are similar but there's a few extra ones thrown in for good measure.
Posted by Stretch Mark Mama on January 13, 2009 at 4:15 pm | permalink |
dara–i don't think crying implies that a woman is "out of control". most people here have likened it to frustration, but it by no means should be sexually stereotyped (e.g., men yell; crying is the female equivalent). i've known plenty of women at all levels who yell.
i don't derive particular pride in keeping myself "in control" 100% of the time, because it's not human/realistic. i agree with those that say anger and frustration can be a conduit to resolution when it's expressed in a non-threatening way. the rub is that everyone receives it in a different way, so perhaps the litmus is checking oneself to ascertain whether they can carry on a reasonable discussion at the time of frustration. if not, perhaps excusing ourselves for a minute is the best option–the emotion has to go somewhere, and we all know what a habit of repression does. and yes, one can liken repression with "being in control", but neither is indefinitely sustainable.
Posted by thatgirlinnewyork on January 13, 2009 at 4:24 pm | permalink |
The "habit of repression" actually doesn't do anything. Not giving into a display of emotion doesn't raise your blood pressure or give you cancer or cooties. It's a myth, perpetuated by Oprah and her ilk. Many people can either suck it up long enough or distract themselves from the feeling of the moment. Doing what needs to be done at the moment is my mantra, thanks to David K. Reynolds and his book, Constructive Living, based on Morita.
Your feelings don't always need an outlet. You can acknowledge the emotion and move on.
Posted by Barbara on January 13, 2009 at 6:12 pm | permalink |
thatgirlinnewyork– I don't think we can keep our emotions bottled up 100% of the time…I'm seeing "go cry in private" mentioned a lot, which I'm on board with.
Perhaps, it's just me, but I DO feel that the moment I start letting the tears flow, I've lost control. I kind of equate it to letting the angry outburst happen (though I did not mean to imply only women cry and only men yell). I would think it requires similar effort to suppress/repress the angry outburst as it does the tears. Maybe not? It's considered pretty healthy of an individual to repress anger until an appropriate time/place (not work).
I guess the BIG question is, how seriously is anyone taken (man or woman) when they are crying? Should it be acceptable in the workplace of anyone?
It just depends on the scenario to me: 1) crying at work because you've just been fired, have just fired someone, personal trauma, I can take that crier seriously all day long 2) Crying b/c someone reprimanded you (made you angry/hurt your feelings) or similiar situation, I'm probably wishing you'd go cry and then come back and talk when calm again. Not saying that it's unreasonable to cry in either situation, I just think the workplace requires more strict levels of self-control to be professional. Not sure though, b/c, thank God, I've rarely wanted to cry at work.
Posted by Dara on January 13, 2009 at 4:45 pm | permalink |
You are so right on – I love how you put things out there that we all know to be true but are so afraid to say. Thank you!!
Posted by J Jacobson on January 13, 2009 at 6:15 pm | permalink |
I am a woman executive and the only time I ever cried in "public" was when a male politican (I was in government) very publicly criticized my staff. I knew how hard my staff were working and how dedicated they were. I too felt as exhausted and unappreciated as they did. But I cried for his total lack of understanding and gratitude, and for the way my staff perceived it. I actually left the meeting — midtide in the politican's rant — when the tears gathered in my throat.
Interestingly enough, many people saw this as a sign of strength — that I would be moved to tears because I was empathizing with the feelings of others. Tears are human; women are human. I'd rather be a feeling human than an unfeeling bully like this particular politican.
Women have great capacity for feeling; let's not lose it by being embarrassed when real emotion takes over. We de-humanize ourselves.
Posted by Brenda on January 13, 2009 at 7:16 pm | permalink |
your illustration serves a valuable reminder to those of us who don't feel that we need to become hardened in order to be effective and respected in our work. thank you!
Posted by thatgirlinnewyork on January 13, 2009 at 7:24 pm | permalink |
Another example from a non-crying executive, today I found myself a bit damp eyed when thanking a colleague who had really helped me a tremendous amount starting up a new position. I was genuinely appreciative and got a tiny bit choked up. I am a she and colleague is a she and she appeared to understand exactly what I was trying to say.
Posted by Rebecca Gonzalez on January 13, 2009 at 11:33 pm | permalink |
Loving your angsty posts. Somehow the angst makes your writing seem very focused and filler-free.
Posted by Anca on January 13, 2009 at 7:58 pm | permalink |
P. you should write about expressing anger at work. I like several of the other women that have posted have only cried at work because I was angry. Anger at work is hard. If you express anger or frustration by crying or leaving the room you are seen as weak. If you yell or cuss you are seen as crude and unprofessional (unless you are one of the older white men who lead my organization, then it perfectly acceptable). So what are you supposed to do? I rarely get angry at work, but when I do I'd like to know what to do with all that emotion and not come across as a drip or a creep.
As far as the pick a mate who earns more money thing – nah – don't get married and don't live with someone. Of course that's only if you don't intend to have children.
Posted by SallyR on January 14, 2009 at 12:28 am | permalink |
IN a conversation once about crying my husband let me into a secret. He said men don't cry, they get angry, and suggested I try it. Now at work when I start feeling that level of stress, that adrenalin rush (there's normally some warning)I try to think – am I upset or angry? If I'm angry I focus on why, and what I need to say/do to fix it. Then I say it clearly and firmly so noone can mistake me. Amazingly, this often this makes the tears go away. It is easier to control anger than tears and losing control is not helpful at work.
Maybe this tip might help someone else out there.
If it's tears, and they're coming no matter what I do, I get out of there. If it's a blubberfest I get in my car and go home. Twice I've done this and gone back in the next day to resign. If your environment's that bad, get the hell out.
Posted by Kate on January 14, 2009 at 2:04 am | permalink |
Thanks for this article – it was really good advice that many of us can learn from and apply.
I'd be interested, as many other posters have asserted, in more on the topic of anger and tears. It vexes me to no end but I'm admittedly an "angry crier". I'd love to learn "how" to channel anger differently but I'm at a loss to do it naturally.
It isn't quite as easy as the suggestion from one of your readers that we just "apply powder" or seek psychiatric help.
Posted by Jessica on January 14, 2009 at 6:38 am | permalink |
hello there P
Like you did have I have a stay at home husband (except the last three months when we have swapped – he is painting our house and I am mothering full time). In addition to your points about how the men are not happy, I would raise the point being how happy does it make the wife …
My personal experience shows the kids are super well parented by their stay at home dad, my husband, but the domestics go to hell in a handbag and are neglected to the max. This makes me unhappy. So a stay at home dad without a cleaner is a real pain in the butt – for the wife.
As to all female network groups I refuse to join them, full stop. Why would I work my way to be only one of five female CEOs in Queensland local govt and then go hang with a bunch of women only, when 120 of the other ceo role holders are …. MEN. Forget it.
And crying at work … well we ask men to modify some of their manish behavours – the ones we have trouble coping with – so why would they not want us to save the tears for the bathroom and not the boardroom. And tears when I am angry … no way, I like words and actions – far more productive. And crying to manipulate – use what you have baby :) cheers le
Posted by le on January 14, 2009 at 6:54 am | permalink |
Hello, there is my first comment on this blog. First of all, I'll beg you to excuse my french. Well, in fact, I am french.
Anyway, I always had difficulties to handle woman's crying at work especially when I have to critizize a part of their work in a way or another. I first wondered if I was too hard on her. I know that sometimes, in a well known "rush time", we do not always take the time to manage other's feeling. It's nothing personnal, it's not harassment, it's not supposed to be painful. It's just "rush time" at work.
I know it's a mistake. It's something on what I should work on. But when you reach a certain level of your career, even when you are still an employee, you have to handle to work with deadlines, pressure. Everybody makes mistakes, even the best ones. No need to cry about it, just makes it right. How am I suppose to handle that ? I cannot avoid the feedback on this woman's work. And if it's a bad feedback, I have to tell her, for her own good.
When I was still an employee, I had a couple of managers who reviewed me in terms of "Perfect, you're one of the best in the team, thanks for your considerable work during rush times, etc". Yeah, great. But what I didn't know and what they didn't tell me is that some managers of mine had a relationship problem with me. I learned it two years later. How I was supposed to correct by behavior without knowing about it ? I hated that. As a manager and company owner, I will not do that to an employee, even if she's crying. She'll think about it later and understand the point, then correct it.
I strongly think that is a part of management to say things. To congratulate when the time is right. To criticize when you have to. A manager is supposed to help his team to gain experience, to level up.
In order to do that, you have to point a bad work or a non-valuable work when you have to. No matter the cryings.
Tears are one time shot. It's understandable but it's not constant. Tears first, thoughts after that and making things right to the end. That's how I see it.
Maybe I'm wrong anyway. It's just a point of view of a young manager who's starving to learn.
Eric.
Posted by Eric on January 14, 2009 at 10:23 am | permalink |
In my experience, the key to good management is consistency, honesty, and above all, follow-through.
This goes against all of the stupid politically correct BS out there, but men and women are different. Big surprise there — not superior to one another, just different. So, when I (or someone else) manages a mix, it is very hard to be consistent across the board.
Yes, reasonably, a good mgr needs to be sensitive to items specific to each gender. Generally speaking, the women that have worked for me really respond to feedback (good or bad) as I've found most just want to feel valued. For men, generally, they (in my experience) just want to be left alone and want to feel like they're work is valuable. Obviously, this is just one broad observation.
At all levels, it's very hard to manage people (as this applies to both) who have trouble containing emotions. I've managed hyper-sensitive women who couldn't take any constructive criticism without balling and I've managed hyper-egotistical men who shout and scream when you ask them the time of day. And yes, generally, women are A LOT harder on other women than men are to men.
Bottom line. The women I've worked with have been fantastic for the most part. Generally speaking, they're easier as they don't usually come with an attitude problem. In stressful times, reasonably, everyone understands tears here and there. Just don't make a big deal in front of everyone as it is a tad awkward.
Penny, this article goes into the win column as it is more sensible.
Posted by Reality Check on January 14, 2009 at 12:58 pm | permalink |
Love it. But I think your psychology on #5 is wrong, and you might want to discuss further with a psychologist (and post further about too). Not maintaining control of your emotions IS weakness. There's nothing wrong with weakness, but if you are constantly flying off the handle/crying/etc, you *are* being manipulative. You are also setting a bad example. And you *are* taking things too seriously.
We seem to think that it is healthy to express ourselves, but it's no more healthy to do that extreme than the other – repressing it all. There is a middle ground, and it lies in discretion. What should be expressed, and what should you just let go?
I used to have serious anger management issues, which usually resulted in tears. And yes, I will admit that the tears were often manipulative, because you get further with them than with a temper tantrum. Better pity than more anger.
So I sat down with my anger issues one day, and realized that there were a few places where I could manage a stop-gap, if not an ultimate fix. The biggest benefit came from being able to hold back the tears/yelling at least until I could make it to the bathroom.
The key? Stop acting like I'm the center of the universe and everything was about *me*. Because frankly, it's not. The same things that piss me off, piss other people off too. The sooner we all learn that, the better we'll be able to handle our own emotions.
So let out the tears, sure. But don't think that just because you are a woman, it's always ok to cry.
Posted by deepali on January 14, 2009 at 1:00 pm | permalink |
Why in the world would any smart woman blow a book deal on "other people's accomplishments"? Seems to me, like the whole point a book deal is to give the writer an opportunity to share (somewhat) original ideas…
Posted by Ashtacular on January 14, 2009 at 4:00 pm | permalink |
"whole point (of) a book deal……….."
Posted by Ashtacular on January 14, 2009 at 4:01 pm | permalink |
I agree with all your points but one – the crying the in workplace. There is a time and place. As a woman and as a professional, I find it less-than-professional when women cry in the workplace. But, it is all in context. I've seen women cry because they were on the receiving end of constructive feedback, and I've seen women cry because they basically didn't get their way. I've also seen women cry out of frustration and for basically no reason at all. Those who cry out of frustration and no reason at all, usually do it in privacy and/or in a setting that minimizes the impact and allows them the needed personal time and I have far more respect for them for it.
Incidentally, I am really tired of women using their ovaries as an excuse to cry. Yes, women have a tendency to be more emotional; however, PMS doesn't excuse bottom-line professional. I'm not saying turn into emotionless drones or men, I'm saying make positive choices (yes, even when you have PMS) based on the time, place, and circumstances.
Posted by McCallum on January 14, 2009 at 4:18 pm | permalink |
I went to an all-girls high school and a women's college and I'm all about the advantages there. But in my career, I've worked with women and have had leadership positions in women's organizations — like, I end up as president. I've won an Athena Award — which is given in 400+ communities and 8 countries for professional achievement, leadership and contributions to women in your field, and community involvement. Women love me. I love my friends.
BUT.
I've also worked in a company full of women, and it was generally a shark tank.
90% of the work I've gotten from clients (I'm a freelance writer and project developer/creative director)has come from men.
Joining all-female groups has not directly benefitted my career. It has resulted in some good friendships and support.
I just like working with men better.
Posted by mdiehl@frontiernet.net on January 14, 2009 at 5:47 pm | permalink |
About the PMS aspect: Seems it's been used as an excuse for denying women roles in society ranging from president to military combat. I guess the military would be one place where crying might be legit: if you're crying you can't see your target.
Posted by Tony Brown on January 14, 2009 at 11:05 pm | permalink |
Love this column. Especially #1 and #5. I've started a website that I hope will allow women (and others) more flexibility in their work lives during those high earning years when we can either opt out and go insane or try to do it all and go insane. And if a company wants to have an account on my site I'm demanding transparency – unlike those list of "best companies" do. I realize the transparency I demand may cause my site to be marginalized or never make a dime…but I'm hoping it works and changes things.
As for crying at work – I've done it twice – neither time could I have stopped it and quite frankly – why should I? If things are bad enough to make me cry someone should know about it. Now I work for me – so crying at the office is highly acceptable and encouraged. After all – life is always a bit clearer after a good cry. And I challenge any male to handle all the things women do each day (especially working moms) and not cry. Try it for a week…I dare you.
Posted by Leanne on January 15, 2009 at 9:50 am | permalink |
Finally! An honest post about this topic.
From the bottom of my traditionally-feminine-and-very-ambitious heart…thank you.
Posted by A Lil' Irish Lass on January 15, 2009 at 12:20 pm | permalink |
Disagree with #4 in certain circumstances. I'm a member of a woman's bar association and it's really been a fantastic resource for me, both from a networking standpoint and a solidarity one. I really haven't witnessed above a low-level of animosity/cattiness in the group, which is much better than pretty much all mixed-gender groups I belong to.
To be honest, I think it's particularly helpful to us because we're in an industry that is still male-dominated in many ways and also because we, well, aren't always traditional women-types. (Or, as my co-counsel once famously said to a male client who asked us if either of us had a tissue, "Sorry, we're not very good women.")
It's nice to be in a place where you can feel free to behave naturally – which might mean discussing lolcats and facebook, or civil rights and the terrifying organizational skills of the religious right. From a younger woman's perspective, it's also fascinating to hear the experiences of women who are farther along and how they got where they are.
I think that's my 2 cents, and then some.
Posted by Anne on January 15, 2009 at 12:35 pm | permalink |
Thank you for good advice that applies well for women and men alike. Basically what you are arguing for is a certain type of self-honesty. This is something both women and men in our society need in a large does, the ability to truly look at the self, honestly.
I have to call the "B.S. card" on your statement that "I think the strength of women is that they see things more clearly"
This is a grossly superficial and simplistic statement, remarkable because your blogs are quite full of real insights. I could reword this, in a male-biased way, that would have me branded a misogynist. In fact Jack Nicholson's character in "As Good as it Gets" throws out a statement similar in spirit, though a bit cruder in wording, on the weakness of women.
Both sexes have strengths and weaknesses, both see aspects of things more clearly than the other. I think a failure of our society is that men and women are both reared with certain blind spots in how we see the world. I believe that men and women do see the world differently. This has been my experience, but I think it’s more nuanced than you present. My experience has been that there are ways in which women see the world FAR more clearly than men, while there are also ways in which women typically see the world far LESS clearly than men, both sexes can be very dense to certain things. Avoiding gross simplifications and inaccuracies, I think that it is obvious to anyone who really looks at things, honestly, that there are dysfunctional ways in which both sexes see the world.
The key is balance and complementarity. Something that we are not taught and that causes our relationships with each other to suffer.
1. The NPR piece on reading hits on something but presents it in a laughably superficial way. It mainly indicates that women read more fiction than men, and that Americans in general read less. Why didn't you focus on this aspect? BOTH men and women seem to read less, according to this article. Of the women who read more, they devour fiction.
Fiction is not exactly descriptive of the world as it truly is, it can be, but at its root fiction is fantasy put into words. It can tell truths, but in itself it is not real. Note well that the largest genre of fiction consumed by women is Romance. Novels involving brooding Byronesque Highlander Rakes, saved from their dark sides, by assertive plucky red-headed heroines, or some variation of that generic plot theme, do not indicate “a stronger grip on reality”
Men typically read more trashy books on war and military biographies while women typically read more trashy romances. So what. The key in both cases is quality, seeing things more clearly and having a better grip on how the world really is are not functions of reading fiction.
Link 2. In reality men typically underestimate how overweight they are, whilst women typically overestimate how overweight they are. In both cases the key is a distortion of how things really are. This tendency is particularly found in certain social-economic and racial groups. So the role of culture, class, and race, matters. Everyone knows this, in fact themes relating to this are almost cliché.. particularly in some music genres.
Asserting that a half-empty view of the world is more realistic than a half-full one is deceptive. The glass is both half full and half empty, both views see things less than how they truly are.
Other than these two quibbles, great blog.
Posted by Kamal S. on January 15, 2009 at 3:21 pm | permalink |
Penelope – My husband is a stay-at-home dad. I could convince you that he's happy, but that's not the point. Who cares? What matters is that I don't have to leave work to pick up my kid when he's sick, I don't have to worry about what I'm going to eat for dinner … I don't have to sweat a lot of the life stuff and am able to focus on my career and my family.
I agree with @le though, hiring a cleaner is mandatory!
Posted by Amy Wilson on January 15, 2009 at 5:22 pm | permalink |
I would hate to say this but in many industries part of your success is determinded by your looks. you need to find away to look better or younger in order to gain the same treatment. I just read an article on eyelifts.com about how to look younger and how it may effect your career.
Posted by karen on January 16, 2009 at 11:12 am | permalink |
I think the upshot is:
Crying is a normal reaction for many women, and men, but it is associated with women being emotional, out of a control and manipulative. A number of cryers don't see it as an interference with their ability to do their job. A number of non-cryers really look down on people who do.
If you take gender out of the discussion, it's a lot less charged. I think what's bothering people is that crying is associated with women. So the judgers seem to be saying that normal female reactions are not acceptable in the workplace – that what's normal is the male non-reaction. (Which is bullshit, most men I know are incredibly emotional at and about work. They just express it in different ways and lie a lot more). Of course women are going to feel rejected.
Crying happens, and in most workplaces, it's frowned on in a way that male outbursts aren't. It's unfair and personally, I think it's time for the stigma to go. Work is not a boy's club any longer. Women have been 50% of the workforce for a long time. I'm tired of male attitudes and behaviors being considered Everyone's Idea of Normal.
Posted by Liz on January 16, 2009 at 11:35 am | permalink |
I never put much stock in those Best Places to Work lists. It's a PR ruse. I always found that having a reasonable direct manager was the biggest factor in what made a place good to work.
Posted by Brainless Knitter on January 17, 2009 at 8:47 am | permalink |
Women are often their own worse enemy. I really hate to say it, but in my experience, this is too true.
Come on ladies, if you see a woman owned business that doing good things, promote them, don't demote them. Give them positive feedback and if you can, a helping hand………………:)
Posted by LisaNewton on January 18, 2009 at 7:55 am | permalink |
can i share this for some one?
Thank you for your sharing
Posted by Sir John on January 24, 2009 at 11:02 am | permalink |
"PMS is just your body telling your brain that you need to start crying about the stuff that you’ve been ignoring all month."
Yay! True, true. More people should get it. Forces you to process things at a deeper level.
Posted by Lucy on January 28, 2009 at 3:02 pm | permalink |
Great post, very specific and practical tips.
Posted by Carol on January 29, 2009 at 2:53 pm | permalink |
Overall great article…. I have to disagree on all women networking groups all being bad however, I have found a few of those to be extremely beneficial especially with building my business. That doesn't mean a mixed group can't also be good… but if most of the folks you JV with and people in your target market are women, well, it doesn't make a great deal of sense to hang with only men. Might be different if you're looking to climb the corporate ladder…. but I'd say a mix of all-women and mixed groups a sure fire bet.
Posted by Paula G on February 1, 2009 at 9:28 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
I think men are "unhappy" being SAHDs because they usually go from a career to staying at home. It feels like failure to a degree. Very few men plan on living the lifestyle.
When you leave your job/career you quickly find out the joys and difficulties of being a stay at home parent and realize it's a job too! If you loved what you did before you will miss it no doubt. If you never found your place then you will likely adapt to being a SAHD.
I wish you would take into account context. No one would be happy being forced into something. But plenty of dads choose it based one family situation and many learn to love it (and don't blog).
Thank you for talking about it.
Tim – a happy SAHD
Posted by soretim on February 2, 2009 at 12:19 pm | permalink |
Having Penelope Trunk write an analysis on Stay-at-Home Dads usually comes across like asking Stevie Wonder to write a song about the color chartreuse.
Posted by Jason on February 2, 2009 at 12:57 pm | permalink |
I totally agree … it's also like a man writing about what it's like to be a woman [pointless, and of questionable usefulness].
Like all attempts to classify all people of one type as identical, you really miss the mark on stay-at-home dads. There are far too many circumstances involved to fit every case … and your generalization is useless, offensive, and reminds me of the stereotyping women and minorities have endured for ages.
I wouldn't trade spending the first year home with my daughter for any sum of money, fame, or power. On my deathbed, I don't think I'll regret a moment spent with my children.
Posted by Markus on February 3, 2009 at 3:02 pm | permalink |
I love your writing about most topics… you present things in a unique and interesting range that apply across both the work and life spectrum. However, your anti-SAHD rants make me sad. And I know, its your personal experience, and I'll keep reading your blog, but whenever it comes out I always feel a need to defend SAHDs. :)
Before we got married, my husband and I had an understanding that when we had kids we'd take a look at where we were in our lives, and if we could, one of us would stay home with them. When the time came and the choice was between him (a journalist) and me (a military officer) choosing to stay home, we evaluated all the options… both of us willing to stay home, and both of us willing to let the other one stay home… and decided my just under 6-figure salary (with $0-copayment health insurance, 30 days vacation + holidays, and all the other advantages) was probably going to be a better fit for the life we wanted for our kids.
Anyway… he loves it, he's a fabulous Dad and keeps our house in order, and I find my job really rewarding. Both of us have bad days, like anyone, but overall, I think this is working fabulously for us.
The only problems we seem to encounter are from our old-fashioned family back in the southern U.S. who think my husband should be the breadwinner… and that somehow a Dad can't be as good as a caregiver to his kids as a mom. Luckily, we live in California.
And, I think thats what I find most ironic about your usually progressive writing… that you are so hung up on such an old-fashioned idea, that in my generation seems to be well accepted.
And in case you were wondering, my husband does blog. :)
Posted by Amber on February 3, 2009 at 7:22 pm | permalink |
As a man working sometimes with women in the workplace may I say it is much better working with a person that it is working with a gender. I never understood all this need for "equality" – we all serve different roles – not just between genders but everyone. I prefer the idea of equivalence in rights but that absolutely nobody is "equal" – we are all best at being ourselves and that is totally individual. I am going to really enjoy working with anyone who abides by these principles.
Posted by Nicholas on February 14, 2009 at 1:15 am | permalink |
I somehow felt very reassured by point five. Especially considering today was one of those hormone driven, nothing-is-going-right days where I simply HAD to cry, despite being in public. It's a relief to know that I'm not the only one.
Posted by Katelyn on February 19, 2009 at 8:58 pm | permalink |
Me too. I searched for this posting because today, for the first time, I cried and work. It was in response to criticism from my boss. YUCK. I would be SO SO SO mortified (instead I'm just SO mortified) if I hadn't read this a few months ago, and learned that crying at work just sometimes happens. Not planning to make a habit of it, but at least I know it's happened to someone before, and will happen to someone again.
Posted by Elizabeth on April 6, 2009 at 3:57 pm | permalink |
About the PMS aspect: Seems it's been used as an excuse for denying women roles in society ranging from president to military combat. I guess the military would be one place where crying might be legit: if you're crying you can't see your target. – Easier to say than to do
Posted by Alfred on April 13, 2009 at 3:04 am | permalink |
The "crying is okay at work" guideline is tricky. I had a supervisor who used to cry and then turn around and be mean and stern. It was an obvious case of feeling embarrassed for being vulnerable, then trying to compensate by being tough. After several of her bouts of crying, I came to see them as manipulative and unnecessary. On one occasion she burst out crying in front of several employees; the organization was filled with gossip. She got a reputation as being unstable and incapable of handling pressure, which she might have been. So, why not just excuse yourself and go to the ladies room to prevent the lack of credibility that may follow?
However, if one feels passionate about an issue, crying may add credibility. For example, a friend of mine who's a professor began crying and said "excuse me" in front of her class while teaching an especially sad period of Chicana history. The students were affected deeply by her emotion, and came up to her after class to thank her for crying. They felt her connection to the history and it made the history more personal.
How crying is perceived is contextual. It depends a lot on the people around to make it a productive action. In business it could be distracting. Or, if trying to make your case, it might make an impact.
Posted by jessica s santascoy on May 15, 2009 at 3:12 pm | permalink |
I had one female boss, that was actually pretty good, one of my top three. She never cried at work, even when her husband died unexpectedly, which was kind of weird.
The only bad thing about having a good looking female boss is not wanting to appear to be sucking up to her.
The good thing was it was easier to manipulate myself to suck up to her.
But, back to the point. Anger whether through tears or in any other fashion is not good at all at work. Especially in upper management. It just looks like the person in charge is out of control and can't handle it. Even for males at work who throw a temper tantrum or berate people, it works totally in the opposite direction. Yes, they usually get immediate satisfaction or results. But in the long term it doesn't help, because from then on any misstep, mistake is more easily questioned. Is this a simple mistake or is this because the person in charge can't keep it together?
If you look at business as war, which was quite popular in recent history. Then who do you want in charge when the bullets fly?
Someone who is cool and collected taking in information to resolve the situation and making a decision, or someone who loses it emotionally when times get tough.
Usually when times are tough or bad news comes around people are looking for leadership.
So whether it be a male or female somebody who keeps losing it emotionally, doesn't make for good upper management or mid-management.
I have often thought that women had an advantage in this department, because they usually seemed less emotionally tied to their jobs.
Posted by bilbo on June 1, 2009 at 10:37 pm | permalink |
No, really — dont cry at work. Women who cry at work make me want to stab them in the eye. Cry at home, cry in the bathroom — if you have not been diagnosed with some terminal illness or your child is not seriously hurt — dont be crying at work — period.
Posted by hj on June 21, 2009 at 11:04 pm | permalink |