I may go back to grad school for some specific training and opportunities, but I'm waiting until I'm really sure that's where I want. And I'm not counting on the degree to get me what I want.

Instead, my goal is to work tangentially in the field (which only requires a BA) and learn some key skills independently. Then use those skills as a stepping ladder, keep going, see where it gets me. The path I'm currently exploring is a mix of tech and library science (information science). The best jobs probably require an MIS…but I'm going to wait on it for now.

As a benefit, a number of library systems will pay you to get your MLS or MIS if you commit to a few years with them. We'll see.

I contemplated going back to graduate school, but I thought about all that money. Then I thought about all that time. Then I realized that I can create my own path with a little creativity and pig-headed stubbornness.

I'm in the process of trying to brand myself through the internet. Instead of giving money to a bureaucratic institution I'm keeping it and in the process gaining a small fan base for a future business launch.

Right on. Many of my coaching clients went to grad school and come to me because they hate their jobs.

Much more important is figuring out your strengths and passions first, which may take 5 years of self-study while working a shitty job.

After that, decide whether grad school is a good investment!

Penelope, this is extremely well written and timely. We can't manage our careers like our parents did and therefore don't have to be subject to the same educational constraints.

Cheers to being "lost", or more rightly put, figuring out exactly what it is that you WANT to be doing.

Perhaps the next step is to evaluate graduate programs and let them catch up to the fluidity of the job market.

Are there graduate schools out there that are already implimenting stratagies to play by the new rules?

If graduate school is outdated, then apparently we have no further need for doctors, dentists, pharmacists, college professors, scientists, and other professionals. After all, those jobs are hard, and the hours suck.

My MBA was the best decision I've ever made. However, I made sure I worked full-time while completing it, so that I could test new ideas in the field, avoid debt and keep up my work experience. (All very important when you're planning a home and a family — which I now have.) I love that it allowed me to see the world outside my own silo. But, if I'd taken on enormous debt or dropped out of the working world, I think it would have forced different decisions. I probably wouldn't have two kids, a low ratio mortgage, a thriving business and a life I live on my own terms.

What resonates most with me in your post is the idea that "Graduate school requires you to know what will make you happy before you try it." For students to graduate college and step directly into an (expensive) graduate program without having experienced working in that field is a gamble.

When I advised graduate students regarding their job searches, the most heartbreaking meetings were with soon-to-be graduates who still didn't know what type of job they wanted. One young woman went to graduate school because "her grandfather suggested it." Clearly not the best decision she ever made!

The concept of being lost as an advantage is innovative! It would probably be an easier sell if so many college graduates weren't coming out of school with so much debt.

The fact is that many things in life are a gamble. Knowing when and how to gamble ("knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em") is a skill that comes with experience and still requires some luck.

"1. Graduate school is an extreme investment for a fluid workplace."

An MBA or law degree from a top school will pay off. Many people in PhD. programs can get free tuition, and a stipend that is equivalent to a living wage.

"2. Graduate school is no longer a ticket to play."

I'm repeatedly told I need a graduate degree to be considered for positions, and frequently see job postings that require a grad degree.

"3. Graduate school requires you to know what will make you happy before you try it."

Hence graduate school self-selects people who know who they are and what they want out of life. Otherwise they would not have invested the time and money/opportunity cost.

"4. Graduate degrees shut doors rather than open them."

See point two.

"5. If you don’t actually use your graduate degree, you look unemployable."

See point two. If you do find yourself underemployed, pro bono moonlighting can help boost your resume.

"6. Graduate school is an extension of childhood."

I haven't finished my degree yet, but I found that like college, it has boosted my intellectual powers incredibly–and this is from someone who never stopped reading and learning new things after college. Have you gone to graduate school?

"7. Early adult life is best if you are lost."

I wish I had gone back to school earlier rather than doing crummy jobs that didn't fulfil me intellectually. The earlier you get your degrees, the more years of working life that you have to take advantage of them.

This perspective certainly makes some excellent points particularly as more people opt for entrepreneurship. As for me, my MBA was the best investment that I have ever made. It allowed me access to a broader field that my original undergraduate degree. I actually returned to grad school several years after being in the workforce…and worked full time while in grad school. It was a great professional experience as I could apply my education to real world problems in the workplace.

All the best to you,
Jessica Bond
Medical Careerist

Oh. I just. Loved that.

And I would make a sweeping generalization to add that sometimes those with advanced degrees are too smart for their own good–stuck in the Land Of Acadamia.

The younger staff that I work with have the belief that they need to get additional degrees in order to succeed. I always suggest they work for a couple of years to get the experience, broaden their practical knowledge base and then specialize.

Really enjoyed this article! Thank you!

This is all very true. And I speak from experience, since I have two graduate degrees myself. Which also makes this post very depressing.

I agree with Miriam Salpeter. In my field, one can start work with a B.A combined with an internship. Unfortunately, this has not been my experience. After graduating, I worked many crappy jobs while investigating every avenue I could think of to launch my career. Even though I have been told that I have a stellar resume with excellent references, I have found that the employers in my industry are either hiring people with years of experience or a grad degree. So if an applicant is at an entry level, you’re in a catch-22 situation. The only time I have heard of an applicant with entry level experience getting into this industry was if he/she KNEW someone with hiring power. If I was aware of this information early on, I would have gladly applied to grad school. I am actually preparing to apply for grad school right now.

Oops, I was looking at the wrong message. It looks like the message I was agree with was written by Steve not Miriam.

I'm a bit conflicted about this - I feel that my career (and income) has benefited greatly from my MBA. My master’s paid for itself in about a year – I feel like that was a pretty good ROI.

I worked full time while I got my MBA - most of my student loan debt is from my years of undergraduate school. I wish I had known what I wanted to do before I pursued my BA (I changed my major three times and dropped out once), but my reasons for the MBA were crystal clear.

I work a fascinating day job, and I occasionally teach undergrad courses at a local university. I love both of these jobs, but I wouldn't have been considered for either one without my master's degree.

I totally agree that early adult life is best experienced “lost.” It took me 10 years to finish my bachelor’s (five of those were actually spent in classes, the rest of the time I was ‘finding myself), but once I did, I knew exactly how I wanted my life to go. I've signed on for 20 years of the corporate thing – then relaxing into an extremely comfortable semi-retirement consulting and teaching as an adjunct.

Some people may view that as being ‘stuck’ in academia, but the adjunct instructors in my tier-two MBA program where pulling in $120k a year and didn’t have to publish – not a bad life. I wouldn’t be qualified for that life without my master’s.

And as a hiring manager, I seek out smart people. Period. I don't care if you have a master's or not.

I agree with the earlier post from Bill. To say that graduate school is outdated is to be somewhat misguided. It's true that getting a JD or MD might push the owner towards a career in law or medicine, it wouldn't hardly be possible otherwise. Almost all undergraduate degrees will allow you to be a generalist in a one area or another. This is great if you will be skipping through 5 wholly different careers in a lifetime. At the same time generalist work is not for everyone, but it is probably great for the majority of people that are not necessarily game for a challenge.

The overall point being made is misguided logic… Most people will change careers 5 times. As this is the case, most people should not pursue a graduate degree in any one area, it may not be applicable in every area. Therefore graduate degrees are outdated. The real title of this blog should be 'Graduate school is not for everyone'.

good one. So now all the immigrants can do all the work. Since the natives no longer have a professional degree. Hmmm…

> immediate feedback and constant praise teachers

Uh…what grad school are you talking about? my Ph.D. program was led by demanding scholars who didn't mince words when a student's work wasn't up to snuff.

One doesn't attend a serious grad program out of some infantile need for "wuv," but out of a passion for the discipline and for scholarship.

"So going to graduate school for four years—investing maybe $80,000"

Were these points were pulled out of thin air? When you say graduate school, what do you mean? MS, MA, JD, MBA, MD, PhD?

MS = 1-2 years
MBA = 2 years
JD = 3 years
PhD = 5-6 years

The PhD is a special case in my mind, everyone I know that has pursued a PhD level degree has, as a part of the program, received some level of compensation. They are not racking up debt.

"And as a hiring manager, I seek out smart people. Period. I don’t care if you have a master’s or not."

Ha, and this was supposed to be proof that one should get a grad degree? I'm glad I didn't waste my time. I'm three years out of a B.S. and I my two assistants have graduate degrees.

Penelope,

I really like your blog, but may I ask why you pick on lawyers so relentlessly? If I was going to unleash some pop psychology, it almost sounds like you regret not becoming a lawyer yourself, and need to keep backing up that decision for yourself by slating the profession.

If you were to examine any job or profession, including doctors, dentists, CPA's or Wall Street Traders, you would find legions of very unhappy people, just as you would among shop assistants and toilet cleaners.

So either your thinking is getting a bit stale (time to come up with a new point, you've hammered the "lawyers are unhappy" one ad nauseam), or there is definitely something personal for you about it. I'm thinking it's the latter, because your writing's creative in every other way aside from flogging this example.

This has already been implied in a number of comments already, but what's written here applies mostly to particular fields. Your blog is focused on the business world, so I assume this is written from that perspective.

Grad school in the humanities can be quite expensive, but in the sciences - and even in the arts if you choose the right school - graduate degree programs are often covered by fellowships, and students usually have a teaching or research assistantship that pays a reasonable stipend. (My degrees are in music, and I only paid for my undergraduate program.) Many programs only accept as many students as they can afford to fund.

Sure, it's best to have some sense that this is what you want before starting down this path - and I agree it's not a good place to park yourself while you figure out what you want to do - but the fact is if you want to be a lawyer, doctor, scientist, academic, etc. (and we do still need people to do these jobs), you're most likely going to need an advanced degree.

I agree with John, there are certain fields that it is valuable to have a grad degree. In Canada, our Library Science degrees are graduate and the field is really opening up.

Also, grad degrees aren't the only game in town. Sometimes, it's valuable to revive a stale degree by earning a post B.A. or Bsc diploma. Universities are now offering these in such topics as communications, writing etc… Or offering 2-year second degree programs. Our university is currently offering an undergraduate 2 year computer science degree that tops up an already existing degree where your first degree determines what area you study in computer science.

Damn. I was already feeling unmotivated about grad school already. Now this!

Great article. And insightful too.

Amen. I think this list offers great reasons for really making sure grad school is the right choice before making the commitment.

I don't think the reasons above mean grad school is not for anyone, only that it's not for everyone who thinks it is a good choice for them. Grad school is something many may think they'll benefit from when in fact it may be unnecessary for them or even worse, at times even counter productive.

I think one of the most important factors is what one of the commenters above said: "For students to graduate college and step directly into an (expensive) graduate program without having experienced working in that field is a gamble." The best advice I'd give someone considering grad school is to get experience in the relevant field first to make sure it's what they want to devote the time and money to and to make sure grad school will pay off for them in that particular field.

Now, where were you–and this post–when I was making *my* decisions about grad school?

Wanted to re-highlight that "Graduate School" here appears to mean "MBA/Law school/Humanities graduate school".

PhD's in science…

(1) are generally fully funded - I came out of mine owning a home, with a retirement package started and savings;

(2) generally very independent (in fact, I had to reread the comments on addiction to immediate feedback over because when I saw the phrase in the paragraph I expected something totally different - one of the aspects of graduate school that's commonly discussed where I'm at is that graduate school is generally considered to be an extremely rough transition for those who are very dependent on immediate feedback, because it's suddenly so completely lacking)

(3) For both of the fields I'm involved in (scientific research and clinical medicine), a graduate degree or an MD (technically not graduate school, but if law school counts…) are THE entries into the major career paths in these fields (yes, you can of course do an RN instead of an MD and have a career in medicine as well, but that's a lot of schooling, also!).

Just to make sure someone considering these options isn't confused by this post!

1. Shop around. My MBA is less than $9k total. And my employer is picking up half the tab.

5. Why put it on your resume?

6. As the parent of two Autistic boys (both preschool), with a house and a full-time job that requires travel, neither my wife or I am liveing our second childhood.

7. AGREED!!! Unless a young person is really focused and knows at a young age what they want to do, graduating university with no debt is more important than going to the "right" school or choosing the right major.

Great advice. But one thing that you may forget to mention is that if you are able to find an employer willing to front some of the bill, it is totally worth it to get one regardless of where you may end up later in life. My wife got her graduate degree while working and about 60% of it was paid by her employer. In hindsight, she thinks that her Master's does not match up with relevant work experience, but it certainly did make her career progression go a lot faster.

Penelope,
Do you ever say anything new? This is yet another recycling of things you have said multiple times in other blog entries…

In general I think PT is great - unfortunately this article was totally off-base. Only dealt with MBA's and a few other select occupations.

Would you want your doctor to not go to med school, or your lawyer to not be knowledgeable on the laws - I think not.

Most basic research which fuels the economy comes from graduate schools - where would we be without it.

People can succeed without grad schools, but "life as we know it" would not be "life as we know it" without grad schools.

If I knew how to rate this article I would rate it a 1 out of 5.

Rick

I think I agree with you, but not 100%. I got my masters when I was 32. I got my bachelors at 22. When I got my bachelors, I was a total idiot (thank goodness I didn't know it then). I really benefitted from going to school for the masters because I wasn't so hung over.

Where I agree with you is that I'm not really confident that any degree will get you anywhere careerwise. But as an educator - and also the daughter of an educator - I kind of like going to school.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you're going to graduate school with the expectation of making a lot of money from it, you will probably be disappointed (but hopefully not). If you are going to grad school to learn some stuff, you will not be disappointed. I'm glad I went.

As I recall, you kicked around numerous dead-end jobs in your twenties, which supports your premise. But then, seemingly lacking any direction, you went to grad school for writing. This led to your first book and ultimately to your writing career. So was your way the right way, or the wrong way? Or is it that grad school was cool 12 years ago, but "outdated" now?

Having gone to graduate school later in life (my 30s) and used it to jumpstart a second career, I'm obviously biased, but I'd say that this article is all about the exception and not the rule. Website publishers and volleyball players obviously don't need a graduate degree (do they even need a bachelors degree?) but nobody with whom I work will make it above "lead" or "senior" (which is not very high, in a global company) without one. Changing jobs won't do anything about that.

I can see where a lot of these points are coming from, and I am definitely of the mind that going to grad school because you can't find a job right out of undergrad is the worst (reason to make that) decision.

But the reality is, there are still a lot of careers that have ladders, and for them, advanced degrees are not really an option… yet. Who knows if they ever will be.

This conversation is very important to me, because when I first applied to grad school, I think it was for the wrong reasons. I wasn't sure of my career path, and I thought that getting a doctoral degree and becoming a professor was the best potential for a fulfilling, balanced career. Crazy, right, that I percieved teaching as a balanced career? But I did. And who knows, maybe it is or could be. I could still end up deciding that's the way I want to go. But that's the point, really, isn't it? To, no matter where you are in your professional or educational journey, always be pushing for new doors, new paths, new directions? For a lot of people, that may mean getting an advanced degree, and that's great. I will be one of those people, even if it's just for my own personal satisfaction and knowledge…

I like reading the comments for this article because people have a lot of passion around the issue. If you do not have a graduate degree, you think they are a waste of time, and that it only indicates that you are 'book smart'.

If you have a graduate degree, you think that it reflects positively on your intellect and dedication.

The bottom line is, does it work for you?

I had a job that I loved, making almost 30k a year, barely scraping by supporting my family. I quit my job, went to a top 30 MBA program (nothing too fancy) and in 18 months accepted a job offer for $85k. More importantly, though, I met some fantastic people.

When I lost my job 5 years ago (that 85k gig) it was the MBA on my resume and my network of grad school friends that kept the interviews rolling in, and an eventual job offer.

Had I not gone to grad school, I would not have had those connections. Income/cost aside, a trip back to school can broaden your network and open you up to some very smart, connected people.

Love the discussion!

Jennifer wrote: "Some people may view that as being ‘stuck’ in academia, but the adjunct instructors in my tier-two MBA program where pulling in $120k a year and didn’t have to publish – not a bad life. I wouldn’t be qualified for that life without my master’s."

I'm in my late 30s, and just left a large high-tech company, where I was making more than that, and I was managing a marketing team of 10, all of whom had MBAs. I took some smart chances in my career, delivered results, built alliances and a solid reputation. I stepped off the corporate treadmill to start my own company.

I used to think about it a lot, but it retrospect I don't feel that the lack of an MBA has held me back in the slightest.

For the most part, I agree. For myself, I am fortunate/blessed/lucky enough to actually be using my very specific graduate degree in the Helping field. I am also doing exactly what I wanted to do. It did NOT happen overnight but I only worked at a start up/entry level job/for a year first before I got to where I want to go. Without my degree my job would be much harder. But I do agree that for the most part, especially the part about not being sure if it will make you happy…..because, if I had not been an Intern doing exactly what I am doing right now-and I do mean exactly- then how would I truly know if this is what I'm going to like???

Where I agree with you is that I’m not really confident that any degree will get you anywhere careerwise. But as an educator - and also the daughter of an educator - I kind of like going to school. "

Same for me GenerationXpert! I'm younger than you-technically, a Y-er but I am borderline, really. And I love Education. But, I grew up (maturity wise) and realized I do NOT need more student loan debt! I used to say that if I won the lottery I'd go back and get my ph D just for fun. Because I am a nerd. However- I actually really really like my job now and do not need one, nor would the ph d I'm considering help me in this job. So, the question is IF you go on the grad school, Masters or Ph D, can you make it work for you? That is the real question.

Hey - what about graduate school to meet a spouse? Penelope, you recognize the importance of doing that while you're young. I know of almost no better place to do it. It used to be high school sweethearts, then college. But now people are think that's too young to meet a mate. So - work a couple of years, go back to school - boom! Meet someone in your mid-20's, who has the same sorts of goals as you. It's a breeding ground. Lots of parties, socializing, a relaxed atmosphere. I went to law school to be a lawyer, but the best thing I got out of it was meeting my husband! It wasn't calculating at all, it was damn good luck. But the situation was perfectly designed for it. Now I may not be bouncing off the walls for love of my job, but my law school experience was priceless.

@Steve, thank you for posting a balanced response, I couldn't agree more.

Grad school is obviously not for everyone, but to suggest it is outdated is an oversimplification. In fact, I think grad school is becoming more important than ever as undergraduate degrees have become ubiquitous and too easy to obtain. Grad school is a great way to differentiate yourself.

Maybe its just NYC, but every basic admin position here requires a bachelors and every "real" job requires a masters. Hell, I've seen admin positions asking for a masters. Inflation isn't just in our economy….

I think that Steve hit the points of your article much better than you did Penelope. I definately think that the title of this article is misleading.

I think that if you are unsure of what you want to do in life, and still trying to "find yourself", you are completely right PT. Grad school is not for you, and should not be entered for the wrong reasons. It took me 6 years to get my BS because I didn't know what I REALLY wanted to do and changed majors 3 times. Fortunately, I did end up finding something that interests me: Business/Finance/Economics. I've since worked in the Banking field to gain some experience in this aspect of Business/Finance while earning some savings. Working here, I've realized even more what I want to do: Financial Analysis. IMO, this is probably a more realistic approach… Finish your BA/BS, go work in the field to see what kind of jobs are out there and what you'll REALLY be doing, and if you like it/enjoy it, go back and get that Grad degree. I plan on working full time and getting my job to pay for some of it and doing Grad school at my leisure… not just tryin to earn a degree as in College, but trying to learn this time around.

For those of us who KNOW we want to make it to those top CFO/CEO/President of Company jobs, an MBA is required. Sure you can start your own company, but your not going to make a $150,000+ salary very quickly if ever. Unless of course you have some innovative idea that enables you to sell off the company for a nice profit… but in this case, you don't even need a BA/BS now do you? I also completely agree with the aspect of MBA being golden on your resume rather than a hinderance, as well as the points about the networks you make. Your networks in grad school are much more specific than your frat/drinking buddies from undergrad, and are much more likely to pay off in the long run.

I don't think that you mean that grad school itself is outdated. I think what you REALLY mean is that following what is widely perceived as the "traditional" educational path (high school, 4-yr-college, masters, PhD) before officially embarking on a full-time career is outdated. Which is more or less true, depending on your field.

Doctors and lawyers have to get their degrees "out of the way" before they can launch. And most college teaching positions require at least a master's in the field of instruction. Same goes for jobs in the applied science sector.

If you're not planning to be a doctor, lawyer, professor, engineer, or research scientist, however, it DOES make sense to postpone your post-graduate education until you know what degree will be most applicable to your work.

I chose to go to work after getting my baccalaureate degree — mainly due to money issues. But it was a big mistake, since what I really wanted was to teach literature and grammar at the college level. And that's STILL what I want, after 20 very successful years in the administrative field.

SO, I'm going to go back to school and get my master's and my PhD, as soon as my own kids are out of college. And then I will FINALLY get the chance to do what I always wanted to do. Maybe late, but better late than never.

I'm not sure if early adult life is best when you are lost, and that you don't really need a graduate degree - I know a lot of smart people who never got that graduate degree and have hit ceilings because they have ability but a MA, PhD, whatever is needed for the higher rung.

Now this may not be true on the West Coast, or in places where work is more fluid and entreprenurial, but most of us across the country are not dealing with that - we're still dealing with more conventional ways to work and the 50/60 year olds calling the shots are the epitome of convention. "Where did you get your MBA or JD?" still matters. Being a woman with a MBA or JD is still a problem - nice degree but "eeew, she's a girl!"

I liked Steve's post, and also liked the person who mentioned that most employees - not lawyers - are pretty unhappy. Frankly, the only people I've ever heard talk about loving work or following their passions are career writers, career counselors (hm, now why would they tell people that - oh, to sell more services!), and those wacky West Coast people who are all "dude, I'm following my passion." Try to find someone who likes what they are doing in the Real World - the lawyers want out of law, the doctors want into law, the civil engineers hate engineering, the IT people feel blocked and stalled, the sales people want out of sales, teachers pretty quickly hate teaching… the human condition is to be dissatisfied (unless a particular human is in a manic phase or has been lobotomized).

I should also add that the medical supply and pharma sales people I know all want out and into medicine, but the docs and nurses they call on tell them "no, it's awful, we want out into sales." And the architects have mostly left because, passion for design aside, the developers have ruined their profitability.

Perhaps this is why the healthiest attitude towards work is that it is only a job, and only one part of life, and not a person's whole identity. So go for money that you can enjoy on weekends and evenings.

I've heard the "graduate degree is outdated" argument a few times before. I think it depends on what your field is and what you want to do. I work in public relations - I don't need a graduate degree to succeed (although I'm planning on getting my MBA to better my business skills for when I want to start my own PR firm). However, quite a few people told my fiance that he would need an advanced degree to advance in his career. In fact, many companies won't even hire him without one. (he's an engineer).

With the record rates of people graduating from college today, I think an advanced degree helps differentiate candidates from the field.

Penelope - I usually like your posts, but this one missed the mark by a mile. Your usual voice of sound advice seems to have taken a vacation, with sour grapes filling in as a temp.

Penelope,

Sad to note a post which is an overgeneralisation bordering on the ridiculous, especially since it is disguised as advice.

The views are probably also very America-centric. In today's world, anybody who harbours dreams of making a truly borderless career, will find him/herself contending with standards set by others.

As long as there are immigrants in the US (mostly from "Eastern" cultures which place a great deal of emphasis on higher education, however misplaced from your perspective, it remains a fact) and there are people wanting to work in India and China (more of the same kind of people as those immigrants in America, except this time on their home ground and bolder than you can imagine), graduate degrees will not be outdated.

I also find it curiously amusing when non-MBAs tell MBAs that MBA is a useless degree. Would we non-medics tell a doctor that his specialisation was useless? Or tell a lawyer his JD was not much use?

As a recently minted PhD, I do however actively dissuade people from pursuing a PhD. Mainly because people do not find out until it is too late, that it takes something else to succeed at completing a PhD, which is why an PhD (ABD) is considered acceptable in America.

If this is advice, shouldn't there be at least a semblance of "balance" in the argument?

In order to be a CPA, you have to take a certain number of advanced accounting courses. Most graduate schools will not let you take the advanced accounting courses until you finish their MBA program. So you might as well get your MBA anyway. This varies from state to state, but this is the norm among most of the states now.

But I agree with a lot of what you have to say. It doesn't really seem to matter.

What seems to be emerging as my career choice now, due to the fact that nobody wants to hire an inexperienced MBA, is to get together with others who are in the same boat I am but who have a different specialty. Like if my specialty is accounting, then maybe I can get together with others who have a specialty in MIS, operations and marketing. Then, like the collaborative projects we were assigned in school, we could work together on setting up a business of our own.

Otherwise, what I'm looking at is starting out as a crewperson at the local sub chain, working my way up into management and then maybe the corporate office. Maybe then, I'll find my accounting job.

Selfish considerations aside, let's be grateful to those who can and do make the long-term commitment to building knowledge and experience in careers that are not always fun. And let's also consider that the path with the most short-term fun isn't always the same as the past with the most long-term satisfaction and joy.

If I wanted to live in a world of permanent dilettantes, I'd choose yours first because it's all about me me me, now now now. Then I'd reconsider.

In your world, the subject-matter experts - doctors, lawyers, engineers etc. - would have no more than five or maybe ten years of combined education and experience in any given field. Medical care would suck and buildings would fall down but it wouldn't matter because we'd all change careers before being called to account.

Or maybe you're counting on the "suckers" who actually do choose a single career and stick with it to provide stability while the dilettantes flit about looking to take ever more and give ever less.

Here's an idea: let's reward the people who make a commitment and stick with it even if the going isn't always easy. Let's pay more to the doctors, lawyers, engineers etc who are toughing it out.

To be fair, I spent a total of eight years getting two separate undergrad degrees but I never went to grad school myself; I chose not to, twice, for reasons not entirely different from yours given. I'm on my second career now and may change again. So I'm somewhere in between - my first career lasted only 8 years (education included) and my second has lasted over 20 years so far and may or may not go on for another 20 or more.

First of all, I think this point is relative. Bill Gates left Harvard to form Microsoft. So he doesn't even have a degree. Many employers require degrees. That means Bill Gates would not qualify. Steve Jobs never graduated either. He would not be able to work for many companies.

McKinsey Company is an exclusive consulting company that only hires from Ivy League schools. If you did not attend one of these schools, you have no chance at becoming consultant for McKinsey. So that means, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs would automatically be rejected from working there. No college degrees for either of them.

Penelope:

What you fail to mention is that many companies are very rigid in their hiring requirements. Sometimes it gets silly. If you don't have the exact requirements they are looking for you will be rejected even if you are Bill Gates. HR Dept's don't adapt or adopt and they don't see the ability of people to change according to demands.

If you don't fit into the box HR is looking for, you do not even get looked at. It is like they are wearing horse blinders and if they are not looking right at you, you do not even get a chance. The only way for candidates to get firms to even look at them is to meet the exact crieria they are looking for so you can get into their lineo f view. This includes having the required degrees. No degree? Too bad, go do something else.

HR is trained to say no, they are not trained to find a way to say yes. Make it easy for them to say no, and you are out.

I usually agree with a great deal of your insights, Penelope, but there's no way I can back you up on this one. I'm 25 years old and just finished my graduate program, and have been ecstatic to watch doors open for me one after another. My undergraduate degree in English (which, I should note, prepared me incredibly well for the rigors of graduate study) left me with a lot of pretentious ideas and absolutely no marketable skills. I spent about a year and a half "lost", as you call it, floundering and directionless. I then started graduate school slowly, with just one class while I worked full-time so that I could feel it out. And from there, everything fell into place. As I grew into my education, I found what I wanted, and I watched opportunities open up to me even within my own workplace. I've since left that position for a fabulous career I didn't even know existed until after I started graduate school. My experience is not singular - more than a few of my friends and peers have been thrilled with their graduate school experience.

I think a major thing you neglect in your analysis is that education evolves in much the same way that the business world does. At least in my own experience, the faculty have been aware of the changing demands of the working world, and the curriculum has been adjusted to reflect those needs (direct evidence of this: your blog was required reading for an independent study I pursued last semester!). Students can now study in programs with broad appeal that take a practical approach. There exist programs that not only open professional doors but encourage independence, confidence and critical thinking - skills that anyone needs, in any profession.

How timely for me… I will be speaking to an enrollment advisor this morning about enrolling in an MBA program.

I am more excited than ever to be starting this journey, even after reading this depressing article.

Why?

After 6 years of full-time classes to get my BA, while also working full-time, single-parenting 3 kids, and being an active member of the National Guard, I WAS PASSED OVER FOR SOMEONE WITH A MASTERS.

Not more experience. Not more capable. Just that piece of paper and how it fit into the hiring policies.

I knew from that day on, that I would return to school. It was only a matter of finding the time and money.

Today is the day! My intended program is online and my employer will pay 75%.

In my field, graduate school is still the ticket to play.

GO Kristi!

Johnathan Gladstone - I like the way you think. If those SOBs get my stomach lining, they should at least pay me more for the loss of it.

Lindsey, great example of the value of Grad school or continuing education & how you find your way from being lost.
——
I see this article as a good reminder that the value & reason for a Graduate degree has changed.
Masters degree should be view differently than a BA. When you get out of a BA, it fine if you don't know what you want to do. A MA or the others are targeted, so … target it.

One of the things I want to do is go back for a MBA (at least for 1 year full-time)
- A break from life (if I can budget it)
- Do some of the stuff I should of done in BA
- Build a better network & diverse
- Maybe start a business
- Get a different perspective, a specialization that I have little knowledge about (Finance)
OR unify my multiple roles & specialization that I have work in.

Before you get in:
Differiate what you are guarantee to get & what you are dreaming you are going to get.
What do you have to do in during to make that dream into a guarantee or should you quit before going into this dip? (Read/Google 'The Dip' & you will know what I mean)

If you are in:
What project/thesis is going to make you unique(valuable)? How to keep those friends after you are done? What companies do I want to work for & doing what (Do you have a list of 10 companies, not 1 or 2)?
Find a Mentor, it could be a Prof or ask a prof to help you find one. (Bonus: if the mentor is working in one of your listed companies)

—-
People we don't have agree with everything she saids,
but she does provide us with a different perspective & pushes us to think.

In many ways I can agree with you that sometimes people overvalue getting an advanced degree (particularly an MBA):

http://younggogetter.com/2008/05/15/3-reasons-to-skip-getting-your-mba/

That said, for some people it's a great decision. As a communications studies major, english minor when I finished undergraduate I wasn't going to get paid anything (and perhaps I still won't), but getting a Masters in Marketing (that only takes 1.5 years to complete) has seemed to be the optimal decision for me.

I get to learn something new, business skills, etc. and like someone said, the curriculum's are changing and getting better (I know they are at my university), and the average salary of our program's graduate the first year out is upwards of 60K. Is that a guarantee? Absolutely not, BUT perhaps the people that make the most noise about these advanced degrees not working are those that they DONT WORK for. Perhaps the people that have fell in line and are doing well haven't felt the need to come back and vocalize that. Certainly, it's a possibility.

@Mark

You are so spot on. It's ironic that Penelope has nothing good to say about lawyering, but she's currently relying on the advice of counsel in her bitter divorce saga (or should be).

If you want to be an attorney (and some of us do enjoy the work), you have to have a JD to play in our sandbox. The issue isn't whether the JD is worthwhile, it is whether it's worthwhile to YOU!

The key for young people contemplating a career in the law is to be realistic. Not everyone gets to be Atticus Finch, and justice is an abstract concept rarely achieved. For every stellar M&A deal done by a white shoe firm, there are thousands of ordinary meat and potatoes cases. Those are what you will more than likely be doing, especially if you don't graduate in the top third of a top twenty law school. Paying work is often tedious and deadlines are stressful. But every so often the intellectual challenge of a case or the genuine appreciation of a client makes it worth the sacrifices.

Just be a realist.

I have to argue that at least in certain fields, at least mine anyway, grad school teaches vital skills. I may not use my applied math knowledge to do web application development, but I use the skills developed in grad school all the time (e.g., ability to problem solve).

Who goes to grad school for 4 years? I think what people fail to realize is that a college degree is equivilant to what a high school diploma was 30 years ago. Now for many places you do need a graduate degree to be competitive. Obviously not every field requires one, but if your fields offers one and you feel it will benefit your overall career strategy, go for it. Getting one to just get one and avoid having to leave school to work is the mistake most people who get them and do nothing with it make. It all just depends on the relavence of having one and your desired field.

I can hardly even get my foot in the door in my field without a Master's degree. Sure, there are job opportunities for folks fresh out of undergrad, but they don't pay much and you can't count on any kind of upward mobility without that Master's degree.

I agree that going to graduate school just for the hell of it is probably not your best choice. You're going to wind up deeper in debt with no plan on how to get out of it.

But, to not get a degree because you think that you might change jobs in 5 years is rather odd thinking, as well. If I don't get the degree because I'm afraid I won't like the job in 5-6 years, but then I don't get the job because I don't have the degree… I'm doubting myself right into a cook job at McDonalds.

There are also valuable experiential credentials such as the PMP and PHR that do not require a Masters Degree. Unfortunately careerists in these fields are often discouraged.

10 years ago (yes I’m a little older) when I graduated from college, I thought about going to graduate school, but wasn’t sure in what. I’m happy I waited. I’m now in my Master’s program for counseling, something I know I would not have chosen 10 years ago and going into a field I enjoy. Plus I’m working for a company that is helping me pay for it. 10 years ago it would have been a lot easier for me, since I now have kids, but it will only take me 2 years to complete it. My kids think it is cool that I have homework too.

A couple of points…

1. Not EVERYONE changes careers five times. Some people will change five times. Some may change more. Others may have fewer changes. Of course, it depends on how you define a career change. If someone has done a job for 10 years, and then decides to become a professor in that same field, is that a career change? I'd probably say yes, it is. What if a person advances from design engineer (doing the detail work) to sales engineer - is that a career change, or part of a natural progression?

2. Some professions require graduate degrees. Some people want to be in those professions. These people should get their graduate degrees.

3. Not all grad students end up in debt. In engineering, tuition's paid and the stipends are OK - you don't get rich, but you don't need to eat Ramen, either.

Bottom line - there is no universal rule stating that you should or should not get a graduate degree, or when to get it. Everyone considering graduate school should ask him or herself, "Will a graduate degree get me to a goal I want to achieve? If so, is it the most effective way to get to that goal, considering all of the costs and the other options?" If yes - go for it. If no - then don't.

Interesting that you assume a model in which students go directly into a FT graduate program from their undergraduate days and pay for it themselves. Most of the graduate students I see are FT workers, often using an employee tuition benefit, to pursue programs that further their careers. Shifting that underlying assumption pretty much knocks out all of your arguments.

Plus, since many of our graduate programs are in education, I would offer the counter argument that K-12 education is still an employment sector in which graduate coursework is promptly rewarded with additional remuneration in most school districts.

However, #1 and #3 suggest an argument in favor of the current trend towards graduate certificates—smaller grouping of graduate courses with a narrower focus than entire degree, which can generally be rolled into a graduate degree if the student finds that it makes her happy and is useful in her career.

I just wanted to point out one of the downfalls of a graduate degree. I met a teacher with a masters in her fifties who can not get a teaching job anywhere because she's 'too expensive'. The woman had to work as a substitute teacher and had to sell her house because no one would hire her permanently. There are just some situations like this where everyone is encouraged to get the higher degree, but then no one wants to pay someone what they are worth.

Those are excellent reasons why graduate school should not be a default choice. But it is hardly outdated - there are lots of great reasons to do graduate work.

For example, graduate school (or even undergraduate education) does not have to be an investment decision, one could choose to do it because it is fun and it is affordable. Early adult years is exactly when being in school is the most fun and the most affordable - health insurance is cheap, and there are few financial commitments.

Also, some professions require a graduate degree. Even if around half JDs wish they did not go to law school, the other half is happy about their decision. And we do not know how many people who never became lawyers wish they did, and how much happier they would be had they gone to law school.

You've made the mistake of conflating "grad school," in general (e.g. MBA), with professional degrees. Unhappy as many lawyers and doctors are, the can't practice without the credentials. In other words, it is not a matter of "climbing the corporate ladder."

But much about the economic analysis of investing in "grad school" is true. Of course, who is to know what they really want to do until they've done it?

I am a lawyer and love my profession, the money, the work that I do, and frankly the unearned respect that comes with the territory (regardless of the b.s., people generally do respect lawyers even if they would never admit it). That's cool.

Although your point is well taken, please be careful not to paint with too braod a brush. You could discourage some who are truly called to a profession.

Re-reading the post, I missed the usual point — what might make sense to those with experience is "outdated." The tired mantra is really, really thin. Why can't you seem to give it a break?

This post isn't a generalization of graduate school but rather an attack on MBA's and JD's. What about other graduate programs in say economics, history, humanities, political science. Graduate school isn't about taking a step up on the corporate ladder. It's taking a two year (if masters) pause in your life to refine and hone your thoughts and engage in discourse. Sure, you can spend two years in a library or starting reading a lot of books and watching lectures on youtube to save money. However, it's the intense experience of surrounding yourself around a cohort of similar interests and expanding your mind.

Janette makes a good point regarding a potential pitfall for those with advanced degrees trying to find work in certain fields - they might be deemed overqualified, or their degree may place them too high on the payscale for an entry-level position. For teachers though, there isn't really an easy solution to this, because in most states teachers are required to get a master's degree within a certain number of years in order to keep their job.

Well considering that I had the opportunity to go to Graduate School for FREE, I couldn't pass it up! So I have NO loan to pay back!!! And, no, my employer didn't pay a dime! No Grant, etc!

As to gettng a new/better job … My employer could care less! As a matter of fact my employer has made my job WORSE by giving me the crap work no one wants! Thus I am looking for a new job. But getting a new job in these poor economic times is hard - harder if you don't have the right experience.

Awesome article! This is exactly how I feel about advanced degrees. You put it perfectly.

Fabulous! I can't tell you how many people I've met who have graduate degrees (sometimes multiple) because it was easier than trying to figure out "what they wanted to be when they grow up" and fumble through the early days of sorting out a career direction. And, without fail, all of them have ended up feeling trapped and miserable in their choices (or, worse yet, end up radically and horribly under-employed in a different field entirely, and hate getting up and going to work every day because of it).

The only people I've known who are happy with grad school (and who ultimately find some actual value in the amount of money they have to shell out for it) are those who've done a part-time graduate program once they are a decade or so into their career. By then they are more sure of what they want, more likely to pick a degree they have an actual use for, more committed to making it happen, and less likely to spend ludicrous amounts of money on an expensive degree frivolously.

This article is out of touch with reality. It lacks statistical/factual support and is full of pop-psychology.

Be careful with what you read.

@Maria
I hope you are writing a screenplay. You are a funny and vivid writer.
I left a good grad program and felt bad for a long time for not finishing my paper. It's moldering away in the garage somewhere. I lost a few years on the rungs but caught up in 4 years with my fellow-MS crowd.
Nobody mentioned the sell jobs these grad programs are putting out! That is thing, as many others have said, you must look before you leap. Realize that grad schools, even the vaunted Ivys, are in their own way businesses selling a product.

Personally I felt four years of college was enough higher education to prepare me to enter the workforce. It was my intention to enter graduate school after some experience in the workplace. However other life experiences took priority over graduate school and I did not go back to school for a graduate degree. It was the #6 bullet in this post that resonated with me.

My comment will most likely be lost in the hundreds of comments…but here it goes.

I don't think its an all or nothing thing. There are some graduate programs that do meet the 7 reasons Penelope mentions above, however there are other graduate programs that are awesome–many of which are attended by working professionals who learn from one another as much as they learn from the professor.

So before we pass judgment on all graduate degree programs lets think about what it means if we don't go to graduate school at all. I personally think that a Masters degree today is becoming like the Bachelors degree of yesterday…necessary for many jobs (not all, but many).

Bill said it all. Graduate school will only be outmoded when we no longer need people in the professions.

(I mean real professions: medicine, science, engineering, teaching, nursing, law, …)

Nice post. While all the points make sense, the one that seems most powerful to me is "Graduate school requires you to know what will make you happy before you try it." I've seen too many people go through intensive preparation for a chosen career (including grad school) only to find that they day-to-day work they've spent years preparing for is something they hate.

Amen! When I graduated from college (a LONG time ago) I swore to myself that I'd never sit in a classroom again. I built a career (in spite of the BA in English and no grad degree), took 8 years off to be home with kids, and now have been rebuilding it for about 3.5 years. I've learned a ton, tried many different jobs–projec