Penelope: I am not so sure of the rest of the post but on the last bit, I have something which will interest you.

When the Presidential contenders announced their intentions, I asked a friend of mine in the US (woman, WASP, superb technology lawyer, late 50s, Boston native, currently and during the 1980s working in California) what she thought of the chances of Hillary Clinton.

Her answer:

“Honey, in the States, we would sooner vote a Jewish or a black man into Presidential Office before we let a woman in.”

Make of that what you will. As far as I can see, in one sentence, she has summarised the hierarchy of discrimination ingrained in the American psyche.

As far as I can see, that is what came out of this caucus and the rest remain to be seen.

There is many a slip betwixt the cup and the lip. Millenials will have to learn to stay the distance.

Interesting post. The test will be to see if the Millenials really come out in mass for the general election. Historically candidates get all excited about this age group in the primaries, but in November they stay home. I will wait to see what you say in November if the percentage of 18-25 year olds stays flat over four and eight years ago. John Kerry was counting on this demographic, and they stayed home.

I would love to see a HUGE surge of the young people vote. I can promise you if they came out in force, the older generations would too, and this country NEEDS to have better voter turn out or we will continue to get the same old results.

I think voters are willing to consider candidates regardless of gender, race or other classifications. Obama has regional strength in Iowa that may not translate to other regions. Your tie-in to how this mirrors the workplace was intriguing. For this boomer the prospect of two younger generations beginning to assert power and influence is great and causes me joy. Politically I am uninspired by most politicians of the last thirty years so new blood is always welcome. The key will be to find a candidate who is willing to disagree with the majority when the majority needs such disagreement. Finding candidates with that type of courage (Truman) seems increasingly unlikely.

I am 31-year-old Iowan and this was my first caucus. I showed up because I felt that this was the first time we actually had some good choices.

In my precint, which is demographically mixed in age and race, but includes lots of upper-middle class - Obama ran away with the win (Hillary was almost not a viable candidate in my precint). The feeling that I got that it wasn’t a generational thing, but Obama’s message of Change and Hope that really carried him to the win. People here are sick of the Clinton Political Machine.

I agree with Heidi…it’s a little scary to think about a former President using his spouse to circumvent the Constitution. Does anyone really believe he’ll stay on message? Plus, I don’t like Hillary’s marionette approach to politics; i.e. different messages/accents/whatever for different audiences based on focus group/polls/consultants. It makes you wonder what she would stand for.

Politics aside (the whole process disgusts me), it will be interesting to see what happens if / when some of these Gen-Y entrepreneurs become successful and the business starts taking on some of the structure that we currently see. It’s easy to keep the structure loose and open when you have 4 employees. But what about 400? 4,000? I mean, Apple computers was started in a garage. They’re certainly using the industrial model now.

I agree, interesting post, but not for the political ramifications. You paint the generations with very broad brushes, and I’ve never been sure if those brushes are valid. I’m a mid-generation Boomer, yet I was certainly too young to be involved in protests, which also seemed to be too localized to be defined as a national trend. Likewise, it’s not at all clear to me that the X, Y, and millenial generations easily fit your stereotypes.

For the record, my vote will be counted in New Hampshire next Tuesday. Iowa is all well and good, but a caucus is not an election.

I can’t stand politics either…the whole Camelot has gone too far and now it’s like who ever has the flashiest toy wins. I still get out and vote because it is our duty as citizens to do so, and I hope that our younger millenial friends do the same. As for workplace mentality spilling into politics, I think it spills over into many other areas than that. Retailers to restaurants to jobs to family. Retail loyalty is the first one that comes to mind. I’ll never forget when I was in high school working at sears and this older gentleman chewed me up one side and down the other because he thought his jeans were too expensive and that he has shopped at Sears for 50 years and this is rediculous…all the time I was thinking, “Ahh, then why don’t you go to another store if you don’t like it”. It’s a generational engrainment that is with us in every aspect of our life.

Agree with Heidi…people are sick of the slick. Obama represents real hope. I hope he can go the distance.

It doesn’t come down to gender for me, as P. stated in this post. I LISTEN. Maybe I’m not hearing the issues, but I’m hearing the message. When Clinton talks, I hear measured inflections and timed volume increases… staged enthusiasm. When Obama talks, I hear passion and steadiness, pauses to think of the next words… actual enthusiasm.

More than anything, I want someone to represent America who believes we can be a great nation again, and not in the patriotic, family values Republican kind of way. Someone who believes we can be everything we once thought ourselves. I want someone who has faith in our country, and I think that’s what young people see in Obama. He’s not out to prove a black man can win the White House… if he were, it wouldn’t be working.

To your brother’s comment on students and adults: If you are over 18 and caucusing, you are an adult. That is important — children can’t generally effect change — adults can. How you describe yourself is important. Take yourself seriously and others will, too.

I think Barack Obama has a broad appeal but whether he can go the distance remains to be seen. Remember John Anderson in 1980 — the workplace and world was changing then, too.

You are so myopic in your focus, and so out of touch with the working world, I don’t know how you can still purport to know anything about it.

This seems pretty obvious, but a lot of this has to do with technology and communication.

If it wasn’t for the Internet, many of us Gen-Y’ers couldn’t start our own businesses, nor would we be able to communicate as efficiently.

Our parents didn’t have a Facebook group for Barack Obama or online fundraising for Ron Paul.

PT,

I am amazed and impressed with Gen Yer’s (I’m 28) who pursue entrepreneurship. They trade the security of a steady paycheck for the unknown. My wife is a teacher, and like her parents, I believe fearful of leaving a steady income to pursue passions.

I believe Obama’s life story is what appeals most of all. His candidacy is a repudiation of the Establishment.

As a liberal from Illinois, and an Edwards supporter, it became clear to me last night what happened in Iowa.

Obama’s victory was the result of an organization comprised primarily of people from Illinois. Carloads of Illinois residents helped to mobilize college aged voters.

Many of the caucus going GenY folks were not even Iowa residents. A loophole in Iowa’s laws allows students who are not registered to vote from their home state to register to vote in Iowa.

A deeper statistical analysis will bear this out. So that means this was a hollow victory for Obama at best.

No power has shifted to GenY at all. They are still the spoiled children of helicopter parents who feel entitled to the American Dream immediately and without effort. Reality will hit them hard soon enough. They are success-oriented, but are unwilling to commit to doing the work required for the success.

How can you on the one hand say that GenY plays by the rules, yet (at least in my experience) routinely find them abysmally failing to meet expectations (even ones as simple as attendance in an environment that requires physical presence) and refuse to pay dues. They job hop because they are looking for the easiest meal ticket they can find. After five years of 6-12 month job tenure on their resumes, they will find that their desired success will be out of reach.

By the way, if GenY is so conservative, why did they almost all turn out for the Democrats?

Get some facts before you make blanket statements. Links to someone else’s unsubstantiated comments on their blogs do not make your assumptions valid ones.

Politics aside, you’re assessment of Gen-Y’s affinity for career achievement is dead on. It’s very much about defining your ’success/win condition’ or lifestyle and then aligning your goals/actions accordingly. You nailed it when you mentioned the ‘learn then jump’ career mentality; I find that it’s quite rare to find a promotion that rivals the forward momentum of a ‘hop’. Great article.

Good grief, often I sound like the crabby old lady that I am. I forgot to add to my comment that I am immensely impressed that your brother participated in the causcus. That is great.

I’m glad to see younger people taking an interest and getting involved. It’s a great sign.

Oh no - don’t mix work with politics! ;) I’m expecting this will get tons of political comments, rather than work-related comments.

I do see what you’re saying about Gen Y and bringing about change by following the rules. It’s almost like revolution through infiltration, rather than through protesting or fighting.

The bad thing about Gen Y Activists is that they’re so bandwagon. All you need is one person - a “campus leader” - talking loudly and confidently, and many fellow college students will fall in line just to be a part of it. Not only that, but they so easily fall for slogans and surface arguments, without really having life experience to back it up. (And I say this as someone who graduated from college only a few years ago.)

I’m from Illinois, and I don’t support Obama. I have a hard time trusting anything that comes from the South Side political machine - Todd Stroger anyone?

P.S. True conservatives aren’t Republicans, at least not after the past 8 years. True conservatives are those who go for the middle ground. There are extremists on both sides, and the ones on the right have an alarming amount of power.

“When Gen-Xers were this age, we were so overwhelmed with trying to earn a living”

With an economic recession being predicted in near future, I guess Gen Y is going to be experiencing a churn…The conditions are going to be so different from what they were ten years ago when Gen Y was growing up

I’m on the cusp of Gen-Y and Gen-X and still am not impressed with any of the candidates — Democratic or Republican — enough to commit to any of them fully.

The candidate who has most of my support so far, because he seems to represent the Gen-Y mentality,is Ron Paul and he’s barely keeping his head above water.

I think the candidates need to stop pandering to the conservative baby boomer groups that are in the majority and realize where the future is and apply their efforts there.

Republicans and Democrats are the same thing - elitists. One group’s comments may align with your own beliefs, but they are just comments. Ultimately they are all looking out for themselves and their own. Go Ron Paul!!!

As a Gen-Y gal I’m excited that so many young people turned out and that voter turnout has been on the rise for our generation. Not all of us are politically active though - I told my husband (also Gen-Y) last night about Obama winning the Iowa caucus and he didn’t even know what a caucus was.

Same goes with the workplace - there are some who are proactive in entrepreneurship and breaking down gender and generational divides, but there are also many that don’t care. I do agree though that we are not a generation of revolt and we try to play by the rules, so to speak, but sometimes we have to exploit the rules to our advantage to get what we know we deserve.

I think we might have stumbled upon something we both agree on…

Go Obama!!!

“Gen Y plays by the rules, meets expectations, and in the same step, pulls the rug out from under the people with power. ”

I’m thinking this is more GenX than GenX gets credit for. It’s just culture jamming applied to the elections (or workplace). Use the rules of the organization to subvert the orgnization.

I would bet than, among Obama’s many enthusiastic young supporters last night, not a single one could tell me his position on a single issue. (These are not issues: hope, “real change”, uniting-not-dividing.)

PT -

I’m not sure how Millennials can be viewed as conservative. If they are more entrepreneurial than their Gen X counterparts, create their own rules for work, life and have their own views of what success means, and determine their own career progression, how can that be seen as conservative? If they were conservative, in my estimation, they would identify with the party and the candidate(s) that claim Conservatism as their mantra. Instead, what did they do? They flocked to a candidate who has based his campaign on change – historically a Liberal or Democratic value. If they were conservative they would buy into the “established” rules and norms – not create their own.

Staying the course would be an idiotic thing to say or do. Conservatism needs to be thrown out on its ear – quickly. Voting isn’t a conservative value. Voting is a right we have in this country, thanks to the many men and women who fought (and are still fighting) to keep it that way. Voting is something every American can – no, better – do come November. To not vote is a slap in the face to your country.

I think it’s great that so many young people came to the caucus. I hope they come out again when it really matters – in November. If they want to play within the rules and make a difference November will be the chance. Let’s check the demographics of who voted after our next President is elected.

Gen Y isn’t rebelling. They’re playing by the rules, I agree – their own rules. They have re-written what the “rules” are so, yes, it’s easy to play by them. They don’t buy into the hierarchical structure set forth by the Baby Boomers so they’ve created their own set of standards, cultural norms, and determine what’s acceptable in the workplace – to them. Job hopping and refusing to pay dues can’t be seen as Conservative by anyone, no matter how far they stretch it. You can call them “rule-abiding” if you like. I only question “who’s Rules” do you mean?

You sound like Peter Pan when you write about the different generations and the workplace. You have an active fantasy life.

Interesting post, so I put up a link to it on Twitter. When are you going to get onto Twitter, Penelope? Bet you’d have great tweets….

I’m http://twitter.com/SheilaS

In Canada, Gen Y’s are known for not voting. It doesn’t matter which party you vote for, they say, they’re all the same. I suspect it’s the same in the USA.

So there are two issues here. Obama is different (but not too different) so maybe he will galvanize some non-voters to cast a ballot. But wasn’t McGovern a young people’s candidate, too? And, didn’t all but one state go to Nixon?

I want to see that Boomer who is being forced out in a non-disruptive way. Not a Willie Loman who is old before his time but someone like Ryan Healy’s dad. Ryan seems to take his offhand remarks as gospel truth so how and why would he push him aside?

<p>To the person who has a hammer, everything looks like a nail.</p>
<p>I think in your haste to see in all current events evidence of the uniqueness of millennials, you overlook the possibility that what happened in Iowa last night is just the latest chapter in our country’s long policital history of one generation peacefully ousting the previous one through the use of the ballot. Depending on how you define generations, each one has its moment of electoral dominance, eventually becomes a spent political force, and is supplanted by the next. For example, since World War II, one could view the Presidency as having passed through three generations: the War’s commanding officers (Truman, Eisenhower), its junior officers (Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I), then the boomers (Clinton, Bush II). These changes were the result not so much of the unique qualities of each generation, but of the fact that every generation grows old. Each generation tires of the previous one’s political tune and votes to change the station.</p>
<p>I was born in late 1963. Despite what the demographers say, I’m not a boomer (if yoTo the person who has a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I think in your haste to see in all current events evidence of the uniqueness of millennials, you overlook the possibility that what happened in Iowa last night is just the latest chapter in our country’s long policital history of one generation peacefully ousting the previous one through the use of the ballot. Depending on how you define generations, each one has its moment of electoral dominance, eventually becomes a spent political force, and is supplanted by the next. For example, since World War II, one could view the Presidency as having passed through three generations: the War’s commanding officers (Truman, Eisenhower), its junior officers (Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I), then the boomers (Clinton, Bush II). These changes were the result not so much of the unique qualities of each generation, but of the fact that every generation grows old. Each generation tires of the previous one’s political tune and votes to change the station.

I was born in late 1963. Despite what the demographers say, I’m not a boomer (if you don’t remember Elvis, the Beatles,or Mickey Mantle in their primes, you’re not a boomer). Obama appeals to me in part simply because he offers the opportunity to change the station after the boomers’16-year run, not because I think my generation has some particularly advanced view of the world (or the workplace).

As for the boomers not working within the system, ask a boomer what he/she remembers about Eugene McCarthy. In 1968 McCarthy beat President Johnson in the New Hampshire primary, largely with the support of then-college age boomers. Within days of his defeat, Johnson ended his run for re-election, a casualty of boomers working within the established system to bring about peaceful change. Millennials didn’t invent using the rules to achieve change.
u don’t remember Elvis, the Beatles,or Mickey Mantle in their primes, you’re not a boomer). Obama appeals to me in part simply because he offers the opportunity to change the station after the boomers’16-year run, not because I think my generation has some particularly advanced view of the world (or the workplace).</p>
<p>As for the boomers not working within the system, ask a boomer what he/she remembers about Eugene McCarthy. In 1968 McCarthy beat President Johnson in the New Hampshire primary, largely with the support of then-college age boomers. Within days of his defeat, Johnson ended his run for re-election, a casualty of boomers working within the established system to bring about peaceful change. Millennials didn’t invent using the rules to achieve change.</p>

* * * * * *

<I>Demograhpic clarification: Wikipedia says you’re generation Jones. </I>

Hi Penelope,

Politics aside (not American, so I’m not that interested at this stage), there are two statements I don’t really agree with.

Your generalisation about the gender divide being gone and not a concern for Gen Y may be an overstatement. I would have to say that it still depends on the industry, and the more that industry is struggling, the more regressive their attitudes become. I work in manufacturing, and there are still real divides. It does seem to be much more traditional - and oddly enough, I had always blamed that on the fact my company is American-owned.

The second is the point that Gen Y is changing their workplaces - something you show a great deal of enthusiasm for. Some of these changes are not for the better - we’re having a HUGE struggle getting work out because many of our young employees don’t seem to grasp that work isn’t a place soley to network, chat, and check out facebook, but that they are actually being paid to ACCOMPLISH something. It will be interesting to see, in a recession where LAYOFFS may happen, whether their laissez-faire, “do it MY GENERATION’s way” lasts past many rounds of cutbacks. Of course, they are the cheapest employees, so maybe they will be stuck holding all the work when their older, more expensive Boomer and Gen X teammates get the axe. That could change things too.

I’m not Gen Y… but I’m not Gen X either. Too old for the former, too young for the latter, it’s interesting NOT being in a generation, as well!

I think Obama’s and Huckabee’s wins say more about optimism and desire for change than anything generational. The same drama you describe from your brother’s experience played out in the Tsongas caucus groups of 92, the Hart groups of 88 and 84 and probably on back as far as young people were excited and present in a majority setting at a political gathering. I think the winds of change are really blowing strong this time, but it is cross-cultural and cross-generational–and that is what makes me think it will really work this time.

Why do you find it surprising that young people turned out to vote for the young, inexperienced, idealistic, Marxist candidate in the race? Who did you think they would support, Fred Thompson?

These kids have never worked a day in their lives. They aren’t thinking about their future when they rally behind Obama. They are thinking about how to “stick it to the man” and how to follow the crowd. Big deal.

PT,
I found your assessment of the generations and women’s rights to be interesting. I think you could be spot on. However, hierarchy’s came from the generation prior to BBers, GI’s. Essentially, we adopted the military model for corporations. Baby Boomers made critical advances in human resources regarding teams, women’s issues and reward based incentives in the work place. In some ways, technology has set us back, i.e., electronic customer service set TQM back 25 years. While it’s true that Millenials are makeing many advacnes in how the new work place should look, many of their ideas could fail due to the nature of profits. For instance, flexible schedules could lead to an employee placing persoanl situations above important work place deadlines (deadlines that have no flexibility) or a myriad of other examples. In the end, the work place will dictate to this new generation as much or more as they will dictate to the work place. I wanted to ask you a question: when you are speaking to a group and someone answers their phone or replies to a text message does it distract you? Do you consider this to be rude or just another advancement?

I have never been a fan of politics, but am in full agreement with the Gen Y entrepreneur trend analysis. I am a Gen Y-er and own my own business. In fact, of my 8 close friends from my grade school days, 5 of them left the corporate structure and struck out on their own.

P,

Great post, and as a GenX’er I wish we had seen the light earlier. Most of us were so hungover from the drain of Reaganomics and the mind numbing trends of the ’80’s, our mini-rebellion of the ’90’s really set us back. While I have definately cuaght up with the times, the landscape is now with the Y’ers.

In the lasts 30 years, the dynamics of social correctness and personal expectation have changed the way people communicate. In business it has had a dramatic effect on how people approach each other, especially in sales. I am interested in seeing how the Y’ers new social personality changes the dynamic of business communication, and if it will continue down a path of collaboration and meeting expectations.

I enjoyed your post thoroughly and look forward to the next!

All the best,

Karl Goldfield

Karl,
Exactly what is the drain from “Reganomics” & the “mind numbing” trends of the ’80s? That sounds vague (I wanted to say stupid, but it’s your blog PT).

[…] But where Penelope sees young professionals today as fundamentally conservative, I beg to differ. It’s not that I disagree with her completely; more-so, I that I think she misses some of the ways in which this new generation of workers is one of the more disruptive we’ve ever seen. […]

Now I see what’s going on. THIS is exactly why the old fogies over at Yahoo did not like you, Penelope.

Keep giving ‘em hell, Penelope.

James Wilson,

You act as if the young people are not going to run into the reasons that things are the way they are.

There should be a reason we have authority. There should be a reason we have “the man.” The younger generation are making sure that every thing DOES have a reason and that every thing has a purpose. The younger generation are simply going to re-questions all of the basic assumptions that past generations have made. They see that the problems we have today are systemic. The problems are in the design. They will question everything about the design. The past generations gave them this world and expected them to look at it in the way the past generations look at and now the old fogies are mad because they’re not?

he he he

PT,

I hope you never have a business where you have to hire a Gen Yer. First when you advertise for the position, you will receive at least 500 resumes, of the 500 you will throw away 450 because of the misspellings and the job hopping or just plain obvious incompetence.

When you narrowed the applicant pool down to 15, of the 15 you call for interviews only 4 will show up. This is what this generation is like.
Then you hire one of them and spend a year training and then their gone. Is this behavior what you are so proud of?

I find that the Gen y workforce is extremely selfish and have a huge sense of entitlement. “I’ve been here 4 months and have done everything you asked of me, I am ready for my promotion”…no thanks!

Instant everything, they are probably the largest participants of the sub-prime morgage melt down. “I have to have this unafordable house, but can’t be bothered to save or even pay my bills, but I drive a huge Hummer and look good and that is all that counts”

Of course now they just need to wait for the government to come save them…

Sad

* * * * * * *

I’m in business with a bunch of Gen Yers right now. And I feel lucky. I learn so much from them. And I’m a better manager from working with them becuase they come to the workplace with so many expecations that surprise me and require me to rethink things and adapt.

—Penelope

I definitely think Obama’s the guy to break the reign of the Babyboomers in Washington. Although technically he is a Boomer, he’s actually a trailing edge Boomer born after the American birthrates began their Gen X decline. This article from The Atlantic offers some great insight to Obama’s appeal among younger voters:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/print/200712/obama

Kent State was a victory?

Carmen,

Your generalizations about generations are just as bad as PT’s are. And please, if you’re going to criticize people’s spelling on their(notice the correct usage) resumes, make sure you do a little proofreading yourself.

Afordable? Really?

I agree with your comments relative to the differences between Gen X and Y’ers, but as an early stage Boomer (1948) must take exception. When I was introduced to Obama by my cousin who lived in Chicago and 18 years my senior I was blown away! Here was someone that had vision, charisma, intelligence and most of all (but seemingly never mentioned in the campaign) talent. Experience is one thing, talent is another and given the opportunity to select one over the other talent should win out every time.

The Boomers shared many of the qualities of the Milennials early on; a conservative, color between the lines philosophy, but then things happened to change that. I saw the pivotal event being the assassination of JFK, then the assassinations within weeks of each other of both RFK and MLK. I don’t need to mention an unpopular war fueled by a non-voluntary draft. We can only ask what would have happened had RFK become president instead of Richard Nixon in 1968! Certainly this was sufficient fuel to take a young generation of play by the rules individuals and turn them into cynics. My only hope is that Obama can go all the way and lead this country down the path that those great leaders of the 1960’s started.

I think you’ll see the Milennials making a difference in this election, but I also think you’ll see the Boomers standing shoulder to shoulder with them; both on the conservative right and progressive left.

@Carmen

resume means to pick up again

résumé is a description of qualifications for a particular occupation and/or job

I find it so interesting that the first word on most résumés is often misspelled.

* * * * * *

Hi. Penelope here. I’ll tell you why it’s “misspelled” so much. Few English speakers know how to do the accents on their keyboard. And those who do don’t bother becuase if most people aren’t doing it then you can consider it an evolution of the language — in this case, as a result of the keyboard.

–Penelope

Hi Penelope,
But doesn’t that seem contradictory when a job description requires “computer skills”, as most do. Isn’t knowing how to use the extended keyboard part of computer skills?

Leslie,

Isn’t it entirely possible that someone could know programming such as C++ and the languages that Linux supports, know how to use Excel functions in order to lessen data entry workload and have an extensive knowledge of collaborative networking systems and techniques and STILL not know how to put the accent marks on the word, “resume?” Isn’t that just slightly possible? So you’re going to choose someone who could have just learned how to use the accent marks by reading an in-system tutorial over someone who knows a lot more but who didn’t quite meet your standards of impeccability? That’s stupid. I can’t find any other words. You could have just the person your company needs to pull together some cohesion between MIS and Accounting and you’re worried about whether or not the individual can put accent marks on the word “resume” simply because you think that that somehow signifies the existence of competency and skill? That’s just petty and irrelevant.

Looking for substance takes time. It involves looking beyond the surface of what the individual has presented. It involves asking the right kinds of questions. It involves knowing your needs extensively.

If you’re not willing to go the extra mile to ensure that your firm gets the most qualified people for the job, then you deserve to get nothing more than what you get.

Hi, did I get censored?
Karen

It appears that unfortunately I was unable to add a link, so I would like to try this again

Penelope, the link you cited regarding the fact that women make more than men, really provides misleading and corrupted data. That data besides being old data, reflecting information from 2000-2005 - reflects data ONLY of young Women, fresh out of school - and only for NYC.

Unfortunately, it does not represent the data that the wage gap for women increases tremendously after 6 years in the workplace, and that we have actually taken a Step BACKWARDS more so than forwards in the past 2 years.

I wrote an article recently called Have we really come a long way baby - that was featured by the Wall Street Journal. It can be found by clicking my name. It provides all the shockig But accurate data and statistics regarding the plight of women.

I suggest that Men should also be aware of this topic, as it costs your family tens of thousands, and our economy billions of dollars each year.

Karen Mattonen

Millenials are fundamentally conservative?

How?

The ones I know, and I paint with a broad brush stroke here, are socially liberal and don’t know enough about fiscal policy to determine if they are fiscally conservative or fiscally liberal.

* * * * * *

I linked to the post about this above.

–Penelope

I think what I like about Obama is that it’s not about attacking each other. I’m so sick of politics turning into this mudslinging dogfight of hell. Obama truly appears to be in the best interest of the all parties in the United States and finding ways for all of us to come together. Similarly I cringe when debates in the workplace turn to old gender issues (men vs. women) because I agree that it’s old news. The divide is no longer there. Get over it. The best employees will be chosen based on their merits. Likewise, politically the issue is no longer one party versus another, but how can we finally come together on issues that can really make an impact. Change is possible and I think it’s essential as we look to the future. Because if nothing changes, then nothing changes.

@John Feier

A friend of mine applied for a position via a head-hunter as a software architect. He e-mailed his résumé to him. There were a number of misspellings including resume. The head-hunter asked him to proof-read it, correct the spelling, and re-submit.
My friend got the job.

Another, anecdote. I know someone who interviews candidates for engineering positions all the time. His biggest complaint is that so many of the candidates do not have verbal communication skills even though they know C++ etc. Jobs are going overseas to people who are strictly programmers but the ones that require management, and invention, and the ability to explain those things to a venture capitalist are staying in the U.S. Who do you want to compete with and how much do you want to make?

I agree with you that a minor misspelling seems unimportant until you realize that employers really do want literate individuals.

It’s not what the EMPLOYERS want. It’s what the APPLICANTS want that matters. The employers are trying to get employees. We don’t NEED employers to get by. There are too many alternatives that applicants have for employers to be calling all of the shots, including starting a small business of their own and networking with their friends to meet needs that they may have while they’re trying to start that small business.

Consultants are younger now because of the wide availability of information on the Internet. If some of these graduates would use their heads, they would get some kind of certification, specialize in a particular area by reading as much as they can about that field on the Internet and become a consultant. They don’t even need to worry about not having enough work-related experience if they can sell themselves well-enough. Now, if we’re talking about selling ourselves, then we ARE talking about being able to spell correctly. If I go to a website, for instance, and I’m going to give them money, they will not get any money from me if I see a lot of spelling and punctuation errors on their website.

So, you see, it’s not that they don’t realize the importance of the details. It’s just that they want to make sure that the efforts that they make toward ensuring adherence to the details will be made in a economical manner as far as time and attention are concerned and directly towards the revenue that they want. The money that an employee gets is not necessarily tied directly to consumer demand and therefore, the applicant feels that the employer should cut them a little slack. But if they themselves were out there dealing directly with the customer and their livelihoods depended directly on meeting the expectations of the consumer, then that apple is going to get polished really well.

John
you said it isn’t what the employers want but what the candidates want.

When I read that, coffee came out of my nose because I was laughing so hard.

You realize that unemployment just went up to 5%. Since Earlier than mid last year there has been an Extreme drop in in payroll (meaning new jobs to the economy) - and the LONG term unemployed is at the Highest it has ever been

Companies are being extremely selective in regards to the employees they want to hire, and are willing to take a much longer time to hire that “right” individual. So, indeed it is a Companies Market, not an applicant market contrary to what many may believe.

I find this topic so fascinating. Details in themselves are trivial and boring but what they represent to a prospective client or employer is that you care. Its a matter of attitude. If it takes 2 minutes longer to do something right than in a half-hearted way it says alot about the applicant. No one wants to hire someone who is lazy.

Karen,

Despite the socially-ingrained belief that we all have to work for someone else, it is not necessarily so. People can be self-employed.

If you look at the general trend of American industry, companies are not hiring anyway. They’re looking to reduce labor costs by outsourcing overseas.

I bet that in the fifteen to twenty years after I become a CPA, that the salary of a CPA won’t be anywhere near what it is today simply because other people in other parts of the world will be able to provide any accounting and consulting services that a firm may need. This will really begin to happen when international accounting standards are universally accepted and implemented. Does that make it right? Does that mean that we have to put up with it? And I don’t have to explain the bloodletting that has occurred with MIS, do I?

Everything we do that we think is special and unique and something only we can do, there will always be someone else in another part of the world that will be able to do it for cheaper. Then, once everyone is reduced to minimum wage, they’ll all start to see what low income people have been complaining about. Then, and only then, will something be done about those factors which help to produce poverty. Just who are they expecting will buy all of these products and services if everyone has low wages? They will cannibalize themselves out of existence.

So you see, not only are the factory and low skill jobs going overseas, but also professional positions. American industry has effectively turned their back on the American worker and professional. We’re eventually headed for a minimum wage planet. Doesn’t matter what your field is. Doesn’t matter how many years in school you spent studying for it.

At some point, dignity has to enter the picture. Their arrogance simply must come to a halt. If we stand up and tell ‘em to put it where the sun don’t shine and be willing to sleep under interstate bridges, we can take control of it all. Especially, since the workers are the same people doing the consuming.

It’s not going to get better until the natural market forces which are driven by self-interest are either regulated by those same forces collectively acting in the long-term interests of itself or the government. It’s coming down to that.

Currently, it may be a “company market” but, like I said, who are they expecting will buy all of these goods and services if everyone has low wages? Could that be the reason Americans owe $14 trillion credit cards? That means that the arrogance of employers and their “company market” is worth $14 trillion to us. We’re going into debt to cover for wages that they won’t give us. How does any of this make sense?

John,
There are so many good points that you brought up regarding the abuse of power by today’s employers. Thanks for reminding me why I am self-employed.

John,

The total amount of consumer debt (including installment debt but not including mortgages) is $2.4 trillion (as of June 2007) not $14 trillion. Revolving debt is approx. $900 billion. More than half of the US, including me, has no CC debt. The median amount for those who have CC debt is $2,200. When you realize the US GDP is $15 trillion, kinda puts those numbers in perspective.

Besides the statistical errors, I have credibility issues with the rest of the blanket statements on your last comment. Hmm, all corporations are bad? All corporations are shipping out jobs? Been drinking some of the kool-aid have we.

Sorry, but, if someone can do your job cheaper in another country and no consumer values your services enough to pay the higher rate you think you are entitled to, then say bye-bye to your job. Yes, there needs to be more policies in place to mitigate the effects of globalization on workers affected but change is coming whether you like it or not and no amount of “protectionism” is going to stop it. The world is too small, read Thomas Friedman to get a glimpse.

No one is entitled to a high wage unless the market values whatever it is you do. And what about that worker overseas who could have a nice life at a lower wage with your job? Why isn’t he entitled to your CPA job if he can do it just as well at a lower cost?

And don’t just blame the corporations. Remember it is consumers demanding lower prices on clothes, electronics, toys, etc, etc that have pushed the jobs out. Are the majority of consumers willing to pay higher prices to buy American? They certainly don’t do it on a large scale for environmental or organic products. And how will you mitigate the effects of the higher prices? Even higher wages? Hello inflation and making the US even less competitive…now what do you do?

It is nice living in a fantasy world of black and white but it’s actually quite gray in the real world.

I will agree with you on one thing; having worked for myself as well as in the private and public sectors (my current gig), I prefer self-employment. However, the perks in a large organization (bonuses, expenses paid, pensions, healthcare) can be tremendously rewarding plus the resources available can help you make a far greater difference.

Here’s a link explaining the $14 trillion figure.

http://www.truveo.com/Americans-owe-14-trillion/id/3716271915

And while that figure does include car, mortgage and credit card debt, it is still all consumer debt. My point was and still is that I do not see how they expect people to continue buying things with low wages. When you questioned the $14 trillion figure, it seemed as if you were saying that people racking up all this debt was a good thing without even addressing the low wages causing people to use credit in the first place. Didn’t someone tell me a long time ago that I should use credit only when I really need to? Today, the establishment encourages people to use debt to help make up for falling wages.

While you have great points, you seem to have missed the entire point of my post and went off into a totally different direction. I am simply saying that, all things being constant, because everyone acts out of their own self-interest in a capitalist model, when that model is applied to the world, everyone’s wages, no matter what it is, brain surgeon or ditch digger, eventually comes down. Hence, my phrase, “minimum wage planet.”

I didn’t want to put anyone into a position where they would be forced to apologize for the corporate and free market system. I was merely trying to point out that, so far, nothing is on the near horizon that can possibly prevent this “minimum wage planet” from occurring. Even one’s smug little world of “self-employment” will eventually have to deal with this downward pressure on income and wages.

I am not saying protectionism is the answer here.

I can see, however, that once all wages, salaries and revenue do go down to the level of the third world, that maybe, there would be international agreement amongst workers and professionals that there would be a basic minimum for whatever products and services being offered. But that is a long way off.

We still have to go through some hard times in adjusting our wages to the rest of the world and maybe it won’t be so hard. But in a sense, Karl Marx will have the last word, because everybody’s wages, salaries and revenue will be the same.

The adjustment getting there, however, is going to be painful.

“It’s not what the EMPLOYERS want. It’s what the APPLICANTS want that matters. The employers are trying to get employees. We don’t NEED employers to get by.”

The above statement you made is contradictory to your last post.

Leslie,

How does that contradict?

In a minimum wage planet scenario, employees will be liberated from having to impress one employer over another because employers will not be able offer more for prospective employees because competition will keep margins low.

Employers, on the other hand, will face a global commodification of everything from toothpicks to computers. If something is commodified, like grain and agricultural products, then that entails less and less margins simply because there’s enough competition to keep the prices low.

It will be a world where the employee/consumer will have the upper hand, perhaps moreso than what they do today.

Politics aside (I’m not American, although I live in the States, and have done for a number of years, and I’m intensely interested in US politics, and current affairs around the globe), and the rather scathing, ill-informed blanket statements you make, Penelope, I have to ask about the “don’t report sexual harassment” bit you propose. I disagree pretty much with everything you stated.

I have to ask: have you never heard of equality? Of not working in an environment that you fear entering?

Sexual harassment isn’t just a minor inconvenience, it’s a legal issue and an issue of equal rights. It’s also something that women fought for, and they fought hard and long to get the necessary legislation passed. You trivialize their efforts as so much dander!

Your advice is reckless and insensitive.

Carolyn Ann

In university I had the same view as university students now: gender inequality was virtually a thing of the past. I’m now in my early 40s and have a very different view. It’s pretty hard to work on the trading floor of an investment bank, where 95% of my colleagues are male, and see that the top is all but closed to a few token females. It’s not because of an old school “get me the coffee, woman” mentality. The fact is that people hire people like themselves whether they realise it or not. Male bonding is a force that has a real impact on the demographics of my firm and many others. It’s not evil - it’s human nature. And it’s something that’s not going to change for a very long time.

Looking forward to your thoughts on how Hillary’s New Hampshire win relates to the new workplace dynamic.

While doing some consulting for one of the campaigns recently, I had the opportunity to talk with a group of post graduate educated millenials about living wages. All of them agreed that every job in the US should be a living wage job no matter if the job could be filled by a 17 year old high school drop out. The concensus was that $38k per year was the minimum standard for a living wage. However, not one of them could comprehend that the price of their Big Mac would immediately inflate, that all prices would sky rocket. They seemed to think that the new costs of providing these wages to low skilled, entry level workers would somehow magically come from the “bad, evil company” profits and the CEO’s salary. Did the “do it our own way/we rule now” class take the place of ECON 101?

John,

Your statement “Could that be the reason Americans owe $14 trillion credit cards” seems to be referring to credit card debt. And with a GDP of $15 trillion, it can be argued that a $14 trillion total debt (including mortgages) is not such a huge outlier.

Your other statement “It’s not going to get better until the natural market forces which are driven by self-interest are either regulated by those same forces collectively acting in the long-term interests of itself or the government” seems to be arguing for protectionism which is why I responded to your statements.

And how exactly how are you going to be exporting brain surgery?

And Marx’s downward pressure on incomes and wages is only true in a stagnant or closed system. It doesn’t account for marketing or consumer preference. Computers may be a commodity but are Macs? MP3 players may be a commodity but are IPOD’s? Coffee is a commodity but is Starbucks? (McDonald’s is hoping they can commodify that experience). Are planes a commodity? Military weapons? Farm Equipment, why is John Deere and Caterpillar two of our most successful exporters? Cars? Why do people prefer Toyota’s over GM?

Read Caught In The Middle by Richard Longsworth to see that a lot of the ill effects of globalization frankly are self-inflicted.

For the US to stay ahead of the curve and maintain as a high-wage country means education (for everyone, not just the ones lucky enough to go to a good school), it means investment in job training and retraining, it means an energy policy that gets us out of the Middle East so we can stop misallocating our resources in stupid wars with cave dwellers, it means investment in our infrastructure. That is where your high wages will come from. Creativity is not a commodity.

There is a reason why Marxism is dead and his theories discredited. The world is an infinitely more dynamic and interconnected world from when Marx was alive (and the telephone and automobile had just been invented). This is not saying that Capitalism is perfect, but with the right amount of regulation and oversight to mitigate economic externalities, it certainly has worked better than the communist model.

@Penelope, I don’t think what you are describing has anything to do with generations. It has everything to do with numbers (and the fact that the US has a first past the post voting system). Obama had the numbers so of course the two runners up were shouting for the last-place supporters to come and bolster their numbers. If Hillary had been in the lead, then it would have been supporters of John Edwards and Obama doing the same thing. It’s just politics.

@Jenflex who said: “it’s a little scary to think about a former President using his spouse to circumvent the Constitution”.
Regardless of whether you like or support Hillary or not, this is an insulting and demeaning thing to say. Why assume that a woman will be controlled by her husband? Did you assume that George W Bush would be controlled by his father? Probably not and that’s because, whatever his shortcomings, he is an adult human being. So is Hillary.

@Carmen, the dictionary lists “resume” as a variant spelling of “résumé”. Linguists are divided on whether English does or does not retain the accents of words imported from foreign languages. For example, do you buy your coffee in a café or a cafe? In French, it’s café. In English, either is correct.

@JohnFeier: I hate to be the bearer of bad news but there’s a recession on the way. Applicants have the balance of power right now but it’s not going to stay that way and you need to start preparing now.

“And with a GDP of $15 trillion, it can be argued that a $14 trillion total debt (including mortgages) is not such a huge outlier.”

uhhhmmmmm …. Run that by me again? LOL Or are you too busy trying to apologize for corporate America?

“Your other statement…seems to be arguing for protectionism which is why I responded to your statements.”

I would hope that we could get it done without resorting to protectionism. But apologists like absolutely insist that everybody go through hell just so that you can be able to say that you have a free market economy. There’s only so much that people can endure. The reason that government intervention and socialism exists is because of the abuses of capitalists. Why is that such a foreign idea? Capitalism is actually the natural economic reality, but just because something is of nature, does that necessarily mean that we don’t do anything about the things that we don’t like about it? Does that mean that we don’t live in houses because the natural thing for us to do is to live in trees? That’s the way nature intended it, right? So why not?

“And how exactly how are you going to be exporting brain surgery?”

Give them time and they’ll figure out a way. No job is safe, including yours.

“And Marx’s downward pressure on incomes and wages is only true in a stagnant or closed system.”

And that world’s economy is a closed system. That’s the part you don’t seem to get.

“Read Caught In The Middle by Richard Longsworth to see that a lot of the ill effects of globalization frankly are self-inflicted.”

And when the economy collapses, will feel the same way?

“Creativity is not a commodity.”

YES IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THAT’S another point you don’t seem to get. There is nothing special about or the way you do something. Just get over it. If I can’t have wages that support the special stuff you sell, then you’re gonna be out of a job.

“There is a reason why Marxism is dead and his theories discredited.”

I’m not supporting Marxism anymore than I supporting black holes or influenza. It’s just reality global competition is driving down wages. Just get over it. Everyone will have the same wages eventually…even you…just like Karl wanted it. He saw things in the long term. Eventually, everything levels and there’s nothing and nobody special in this world. The fact that everyone is acting out of their own self interest will alter the growth strategies of all firms everywhere.

Kaitlin,

“Applicants have the balance of power right now but it’s not going to stay that way and you need to start preparing now.”

Applicants are going to be getting more power BECAUSE of the coming economic depression. Applicants are consumers, right? If we’re not working, we’re not consuming, right? So there…applicants will have more authority under a “minimum wage planet” than what you think.

Then, once everyone’s wages are level, they’ll have it within their power to raise them if they are willing to work with others. If they don’t, then they’re back to square one.

So in the long run, applicants DO have power if they know how to use it. There is strength in numbers and we can use the internet to organize those numbers.

John,

Thanks for the nice laugh this morning. I discredit your statistics, highlight inconsistencies in your statements, list sources of material and the best you can come up with is “Just Get Over It” or keep calling me a “corporate apologist” or keep saying “you just don’t get it”. Typical Gen Y response. No substance or research and immature indignation when someone actually challenges them on their poorly thought out assumptions. Your response is why I am always thrilled when I get to negotiate a finance deal with a Gen Y’er. They are usually so over their head that I end up getting all the terms I want.

Hmm, so what is it that you are so afraid of? Too scared that you can’t make it in today’s world without protection from Mom and Dad (or the government)? Currently I do affordable housing finance which helps the less fortunate get better homes so their children can have a leg up to better compete in your “scary world”. Previously I owned a toy company and prior to that was a successful sales rep. I have more than enough confidence to know I can handle whatever the global economy throws at me.

So you just stay in that “recently graduated from college, still reading stuff that affirms my world view and doesn’t challenge me” bubble you seem to be in. Those of us in the real world know that life has a few more possibilities than just what is presented in the latest James Kunstler or Mike Davis screed.

And applicants have all the power? Yeah, you just tell that to the 100 people I didn’t hire for one spot, including one cliche of a Gen Y’er (from Harvard!) who came in to his one and only interview with us drinking a Starbucks, wearing the requisite goatee and attitude. After destroying his puffed up resume in the interview and his pretense that he knew anything about building affordable housing, we sent him on his way in abject humiliation as we laughed the rest of the day about his initial demands for a six figure salary, which he demanded because well I guess everybody just told him how special he was his whole life. Now those are the type of people the global economy will not deal too kindly with.

Sidney.
I agreed with part of your post - Mainly the ” I am always thrilled when I get to negotiate a finance deal with a Gen Y’er. They are usually so over their head that I end up getting all the terms I want” — As much as I don’t agree with the premise, it happens more often than not, and it is because unfortuantely, They just won’t get it yet will they???

John, Candidates get the short end of the Stick EVEN when the economy is good, and when it is Bad AS IT IS NOW it is Virtually impossible, and I don’t mean Virtual as in internet. — and don’t just look at the Unemployment Statistics, as they don’t represent the true numbers.. but instead look at the PayRoll Per Population numbers..

Candidates are NOT consumers, where Do you get that, candidates are NOT even future employees. ALL a candidate is, unfortunate as it sounds, is a Piece of paper, if you are lucky to have your resume even printed out, if it wasn’t it went to File 13 (you do know what that is right/)

No, this isn’t fair, no it isn’t right, but that is just how it is. You fit the job specs, you are in for an interview, and even then you are not seen as a “person” just another name and number.. till you get that job. And even then there is the PROBATION PERIOD.

You know what that is? That is when you get to PROVE YOURSELF that you are a human being that ‘deserves’ To be considered an employee at a company.

sure, you can decide to become your own employer, that is what you mentioned earlier right.. But, I would suggest maybe you consider following some suggestions on here first, and get a Grip as to what REALITY is - because like Sidney suggested, you will make a lot of people Really happy in the business world, and it wouldn’t be to your benefit is.

By the wAy, reality, it is Real World, not always fair, not always nice, and it definitely isn’t going to work just for You, cause you think you are the consumer — it is about Free enterprise, the kind that keeps American’s in debt and bankrupt… and the Income Gap between the haves and have nots wider than ever. The Real World where the Middle Class in America is disappearing as we no longer can afford the Elusive American Dream..
Yes, Free enterprise also keeps the wages down, so that they make profit, and we continue to lose.. Blame Us in America for that, not the foreigners..

FYI, it has BEEN 20 YEARS since we have had minimum wages raised.. 20 YEARS — So, you really may want to reconsider that Globalization is what is keeping down our wages.

To Sidney, there is something that I do disagree with you in regards.. The Bankruptcy Rate has gone through the roof, here in CA it went up 85 Percent this year alone. That was because of some individuals who pushed Credit to those Who could NOT afford it, trying to give them the American Dream that they Really could not afford, and today We the American Public have now to salvage that hell.

The Mortgage and Finance Industry crashed and Burned last year - firing 750k in less than a mth, all because of these funky loans.

karen mattonen..

Karen,

Excellent post. You are right that the facts show a pretty dismal period for the average American worker…wages are stagnant, in spite of the housing crash rents and housing prices are still expensive in a lot of the US, our health care industry is in a state of collapse, tuition is skyrocketing, and now we have a looming recession. In spite of our overall prosperity, a large segment is frankly living on the economic edge.

But, is is not just the “evil corporations” as John thinks or even globalization that is fueling this. The American Public needs to bear some of the responsibility. From the “I’m entitled to a high paying job because I’m special” philosophy of John’s original postings to the group that spends more then they make to the group who votes for ideology against the common interest to farmers who hate affordable housing or “welfare queens” but love them government subsidies to the people who want a free ride with no work (as long as the ride comes with Wi-Fi) to a lot of other unmentioned special interest groups; there are a bunch of people with a hand in creating the mess we are in.

One of the things that is great about the Obama phenomenon is how the people voting for him seem to be excited and hopeful about this moment and their chance to make