For those of you who don't know what's going on in my marriage, please read My First Day of Marriage Counseling, and maybe you will want to leave a comment about how if you were my husband, you'd divorce me for blogging about my marriage.
My husband, in fact, has brought up divorce for other reasons. I am not totally sure which ones, to be honest, but I think it is career related since I have a great career and his sort of stalled when he became a stay-at-home dad and then went to hell from there.
I know that there are a lot of stay-at-home dads. But while it may seem like there are a lot who are happy, I think it's really just that every single one of the happy ones is blogging.
There are a lot of stay-at-home dads in my neighborhood. After all, I live in a town where you can buy a house for under $200,000, so living on one income is not that hard here. That's part of the reason we moved to Madison.
So my friend who writes for a very huge and widely read publication needed some stay-at-home dads to interview. And I said, "I know a bunch. I'll give you names." But you know what? None of them would talk. And of course my husband would not talk, because stay-at-home parenting has been a disaster for us. And if you ask all the high-level women who have men at home with their kids, (there are tons) their husbands are not talking.
So I'm going to tell you the truth about stay-at-home dads: The happy ones are working part-time at something they love. This is not surprising because the majority of women with kids would rather work part-time than either stay-at home full-time or work full-time. Which explains why we're done with the stay-at-home dad routine.
Not that I really know what my husband is doing, though, because we are barely talking. We are doing what I imagine lots of couples do when things fall apart: Acting totally normal at events where normal families show up as families, and then pretending we don't know each other at home.
And I do feel a little like I don't know him. Last night I accepted a LinkedIn invitation from a friend. I went immediately to see our common connections – my favorite thing to on LinkedIn — and, there was my husband.
I wasn't shocked that she knew him. I was shocked by what he wrote for his profession. Stay-at-home dad, former online game producer.
Surely writing stay-at-home dad on a LinkedIn profile cannot be good. But that's what he is, so what else is he going to write? I went to LinkedIn to investigate the stay-at-home situation. When I searched the string "stay at home", I got 471 results. It makes sense, I guess, because the biggest problem people have when they leave work to take care of a kid is that they lose their contacts. So LinkedIn would be an obvious thing to do to make going back to work easier.
The list was mostly moms. The first guy I saw was not only a stay-at-home dad, but in his special skills section he lists "baby stuff".
As the career expert in my household, I always think I'm ten steps ahead of my husband. But I didn't know that somewhere in the back of his mind, while we're at soccer games and swimming lessons, he has been wrestling with the question of what to write on LinkedIn, which is really the question of how to present himself professionally when he's abandoned his profession. I feel very lucky that I'm the one who kept up a career.
So we are interviewing babysitters because my husband needs time to think, and you can't think about the state of your life and what to do about it when you are taking care of kids.
While I was conducting an interview, my husband was scurrying around getting camp lunches ready for the next day. This is an endearing thing about my husband – he is the king of details, and I am terrible with them. Every time there is something wrong in the lunchbox, my son comes home and asks if I could please not pack his lunch anymore.
So my husband was running around the house and he bumped into me. A normal thing to do would be to say I'm sorry. But we are not talking to each other. And the babysitter saw that an opportunity to be normal was somehow missed.
I needed to say something to explain the weirdness, because good babysitters do not work in homes of messed up families. I thought a little story might make things feel like I have some control. So I said, "Um. My husband and I are, uh. Well. We are…"
And the babysitter said, "Oh, don't worry. I know. I read your blog."
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This was a very brave post and thank you for sharing the gut stuff that people are dealing with and afraid to talk about.
Maureen Sharib
Telephone Names Sourcer
Posted by Maureen Sharib on July 20, 2007 at 10:12 am | permalink |
I agree. It takes a lot to put something so personal out there. I guess that is part of what makes your blog so successful and interesting. I sincerely wish you luck with this situation.
Posted by MarilynJean on July 20, 2007 at 10:26 am | permalink |
Looks like it is time to juice the blog ratings again….
Posted by cynicalaboutbloggers on July 20, 2007 at 10:36 am | permalink |
Brilliant punch line.
Posted by Justin on July 20, 2007 at 10:41 am | permalink |
First of all, you have my best wishes that your marriage works out the way you want, be that divorce or reconciliation. Been there, done that, lost the tee shirt in the settlement (like that joke about academia, the fighting was so bitter because there was so little at stake). I received tons of advice from everyone on the planet when my divorce was pending as I am sure you are. The only bit that was worth listening to was "Hire a good attorney and then listen to what they tell you." Really spend the time to find an excellent attorney if that is the route your marriage takes. I have been constantly underwhelmed by the ones that don't feel a need to actually contact their clients for such silly stuff as scheduling, oh let's say, Court Dates.
Maybe it won't reach that point for you. I wouldn't wish that mess on anyone. Good luck either way and thank you for posting about it. It is a bit of a role reversal to have the big career belong to the wife. Do you think you will be subjected to the 'Spends too much time at work and not enough at home' type comments that many working dads get hit with?
PS, did you hire the sitter?
Posted by Me2 the SQL on July 20, 2007 at 10:59 am | permalink |
I don't know if I could be so open about such difficult problems on my blog. I do know that writing things out and thinking about them can help a person, so more power to you.
One thought, can you (or do you) share these thoughts with your husband?
good luck.
Posted by phil on July 20, 2007 at 11:02 am | permalink |
Everyone needs to feel valued and worthwhile in what they do. I can't possibly know your situation is beyond what you've written, but it would seem to me that being individually responsible for your happiness and then sharing that happiness with your spouse is one of the keys to a good relationship. It's to your credit that you have done so well in your career. Your husband has the ability to make changes and go for what he wants too, right?
Posted by Rebecca Thorman on July 20, 2007 at 11:06 am | permalink |
Wow.
I guess I would ask, point blank, do you still love the man?
Are you doing the active listening that your marriage counselor, if they are competent, are training you in?
Those kinds of things can help a lot. Divorce is a real pain in the ass – you really don't want to go there. Especially as a main breadwinner.
Posted by Aaron Erickson on July 20, 2007 at 11:09 am | permalink |
I'm sure everyone wishes nothing but the best for Penelope and her husband. I would love to see more of a dialogue on the stay-at-home-dad issue, than revisiting the divorce topic. I only know one personally. He did it for several years after job hopping for a while. As far as I could tell he enjoyed it and was happy, but when the right job situation came along I don't think he hesitated to make the switch and jump back into a career. I've often wondered why that was if things were fine with the other arrangement.
I've also contemplated staying at home with the kids but don't feel like it would work for me. According to today's post, this is more common than I'd have guessed.
What are the real issues behind this? Is it societal expectations? Are the actual tasks involved with staying at home not mentally challenging enough? Is it the lack of a network outside of the home. Is it the complete loss of individuality that having a career offers? Does anyone out there know of long-term (3 yrs+) stay-at-home dad arrangements that have worked out?
I hope the comments can move in this direction insted of piling on Penelope again like after her last outstanding post about her marriage.
Posted by Brian Johnson on July 20, 2007 at 11:23 am | permalink |
"So I’m going to tell you the truth about stay-at-home dads: The happy ones are working part-time at something they love."
Sorry (not really) to disagree. I was never happier than when I was a stay at home dad, and I didn't have a part time gig. Working part time at something they love? I love my kids and family, and I worked at that full time. The problem is that society has tied our worth to our work. In a social setting, when asked "so what do you do?" (a question considered very rude in some European countries), once I told them they were pretty much done talking to me. They can't relate to me, they don't spend ANY time with their kids, and I spend ALL of my time with mine. How could they relate to someone with such a radically different value system? I didn't really care what they thought because I was always the "poor" kid in school, so I never fit in anywhere anyway. It's the isolation thats the killer. That and the fact that the wife stops treating you with respect even though your kids are well adjusted and reading at a 5th grade level in the 2nd grade. When your making 100k/year, she's proud of you even if you only see your kids once a week and they barely know who you are. When your raising your children right you're a loser that has put all the pressure of providing on her – even though she thought it was a great idea at first.
You and your husband don't really want a divorce, what you want is for the other one to change something about themself so you can be happy together. I pray you guys don't divorced. It takes a village….
Things like Columbine didn't happen in the 50s. Even if you didn't fit in at school you fit in at home. Now, with everyone focused on their career and ignoring the kids, if they don't fit in at school they are lost – and no one notices until it is too late. IMO
Posted by wayne on July 20, 2007 at 11:31 am | permalink |
Dito. Great stay at home father. I can't wait for the day when these father raised little kids grow up to be adults. The world will see that we could do better. For the poor working Moms out there, that don't connect with their own offspring. You can't fix a broken momma.
Posted by jb on March 10, 2009 at 2:01 am | permalink |
Great reply. Stay at home dad for 2 and a half years now. Was a decision forced on us by the economy but what was our choice was TO MAKE IT WORK!!! I dont post my fears, self-judgements,problems or disappointments of my wife's career decisions on-line we talk them out.
I love love love this opportunity and I think we have arrived in this point in society was because women insisted and fought for this role as a provider. I'm all for it. The thing is women need to continue to fight by teaching their partners to learn to be a homemaker whatever you want to call it. Women need to fight to avoid placing themselves in the same shoes an unbalanced man wears when he thinks he rules the roost because he is the bread winner. America needs more full time parents. LETS MAKE IT WORK.
Posted by Jolls on July 11, 2011 at 6:49 pm | permalink |
As for the Stay at home dad issue, there is still a sexist notion that SAHD's are not Real Men, as Real Men go to Work and Provide For Their Family while the Little Woman Stays At Home. It has been chipped away at in recent years, but for the most part, it still exists.
Now, on the other hand, I can understand some resistance to the whole stay-at-home idea, independent of gender, based on what it does to your independent earning potential, but that probably isn't really the topic of this post. That said, men, like women, probably get really antsy when they find themselves as a stay-at-home during the course of a falling apart marriage. I can't imagine the idea that I might be dependent on someone who, presumably because of a divorce, does not happen to like me very much.
Posted by Aaron Erickson on July 20, 2007 at 11:32 am | permalink |
Agreed Brian, more comments on the stay-at-home dad angle, less on the marrieage issues (though they are equally important, I feel they were covered ad naseum in the last post)
I happen to be in an interesting situation – ~30 yrs old, engaged to a (big name) law school graduate (who has secured a big time firm job for ~175K starting soon)
I make ~ 100K but am not happy with my job and have been job hopping (and likely to hop again).
Based on my current career outlook (hazy at best), it is unlikely that I will match her salary anytime soon – So, all of a sudden I'm faced with this idea that I may become a prime candiate for staying at home (when we have kids mind you) – Very strange thoughts to be having for someone like myself (with an MBA) who is intensly career orientated (hence a reader of this blog)
Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing people's experiences / thoughts – It could be something I'm faced with in the not so distance future.
Posted by Ace on July 20, 2007 at 11:39 am | permalink |
For those who may be thinking of staying at home, before you make that decision, please read, "The Feminine Mistake", by Leslie Bennetts. (I don't know her but her study and writing are very thoughtful).
I know this isn't an earth shaking observation but our society values human beings (male and female) based on their income generating potential. It does not value those who volunteer to stay home and raise small children–as important as that is to furthering the aims of society.
Posted by Leslie on July 20, 2007 at 11:52 am | permalink |
I absolutely agree with your comment Leslie. I have 8 kids (blended family) 6 of whom still live at home, the youngest is 8. I would like nothing better than to stay home full time.
It is interesting that while there is an expectation that I work and help support our family, there is still a huge double standard that I be the one doing all the cooking, cleaning & shopping. I feel like I have 2 full time jobs and I am exhausted.
If I bring up the idea of staying home I am looked at like I have just grown 2 heads. When I was a single mother of 5 I didn't have an issue working and caring for the 4 kids still at home, but now I have nearly doubled the mouths to feed and my workload.
Women's lib is great for those who want it, but I often feel that this "equality" for earning has been rammed down the throats of those of us who want to be home caring for our families and can't.
We could easily afford for me to be home its just that my husband has been raised to feel somehow put upon and stressed to carry the whole load himself. What happened to the strong men of the 50's?
Posted by Andrea on February 22, 2010 at 8:46 am | permalink |
ACE,
here ya go, in a nutshell:
When your raising your children right you’re a loser that has put all the pressure of providing on her – even though she thought it was a great idea at first.
Posted by wayne on July 20, 2007 at 11:58 am | permalink |
I agree with the point Penelope's making that men have to have something for themselves – I think all people do. What that is will differ for everyone. And that's okay. Example: My mom stayed at home with us and homeschooled us, but her field was education. We became her career. It was something that she was already passionate about, so why not do it for her kids? For men with that passion and for whom pouring into the lives of their children is enough, more power to them. I don't think it's a gender-specific thing, to want to pour your life into something you're passionate about. I think it's a person-specific thing. It depends on what you ultimately want out of life. And if you want a career and a life at home with your family, it's important to consider how you can achieve that and make sure you are satisfied. Kids don't want to live with miserable stay-at-home parents. You owe it not just to yourself, but to your family to make sure you are honest with yourself and make strides to get to the right balance.
Posted by Tiffany on July 20, 2007 at 12:02 pm | permalink |
That's a little funny – you have no secrets when you blog!
Posted by Ric on July 20, 2007 at 12:07 pm | permalink |
Penolope,
Since I have gone back to work, my marriage is 100% better. I hate working for Corporate America, make far less than what I'm worth, and long to be home making a difference in my kids lives. My 2nd grader that read at a fifth grade level is now going into the 5th grade with a B- grade avg., and sometimes she makes D's. But my marriage is healthy.
Posted by wayne on July 20, 2007 at 12:09 pm | permalink |
Wyan wrote: "what you want is for the other one to change something about themself so you can be happy together."
Is it a case of one wanting something in the other to change, or is it a case of one wanting something about oneself to change? Actually, I get the sense from this and the last post that Penelope is fine with her situation, but her husband is the one wanting some change probably more for himself than Penelope.
I don't know. I don't like psycho-analysizing people's blog posts too much. Especially since I'm just some regular Joe.
Anyway, great ending. Tragically fun. Here's to making it through the hard times.
Posted by MyNameIsMatt on July 20, 2007 at 12:20 pm | permalink |
I like the post, but I need to tell you something. Divorces result because one partner consistently finds fault in the other, when the real problem lies within themselves. Now I'm no marriage counselor, but rather than finding so much fault in your husband, try looking inside yourself and ask yourself what it is that you do love about him. Focus on the positive when you do this (even if you have to force yourself to do so) so that you can reach deep inside and get a sense of why you love him. And then put forth an honest effort to work things out (not to MAKE it work). I wish you the best.
Posted by jack on July 20, 2007 at 12:27 pm | permalink |
Hmm. Your writing contains many not-very-subtle hints at why your marriage may be failing. I don't know how successful your husband was in his field, or what (hopefully) mutual decisions you may have made that resulted in him being the SAHD. But your writing implies that you think and deal with him as if he/his career was a failure, rather than graciously put aside to support you.
"As the career expert in my household…"
"…how to present himself professionally when he’s abandoned his profession."
"I feel very lucky that I’m the one who kept up a career."
Do you see what you're doing? You emasculate him, abandoning the (again, hopefully mutual) agreements that put him in his current position and virtually blaming him for failing. You're telling him he's worthless. And one of the biggest things that men need to know is that their wives respect and value them.
Another one of the top needs men have is the friendship of their wife. If you've abandoned communication because it's uncomfortable, you're burning bridges even while you claim you want to save the marriage. Talk to him and be his friend even when it's uncomfortable to you. It's okay if it's unilateral for a time. If you try and then he maintains his distance, the burden is on him to pick up the slack.
The final thing I would say is that if your career is a higher priority to you than your marriage, then maybe your priorities need re-ordering. Marriage first, kids second, everything else can wait in line.
I don't mean to attack; just voicing my opinion.
Posted by Brian on July 20, 2007 at 12:41 pm | permalink |
@ Brian
Thank you for writing what many have probably been thinking.
I feel sorry for the guy. Why wouldn't he put "Stay at Home Dad" on his LinkedIn profile? The person he loves and trusts has gone out of her way to publicly hold him up for scorn. Even the babysitter knew about it.
It amazes me how someone so smart and successful can be so … uncaring.
Posted by Mike Davis on September 4, 2011 at 8:55 pm | permalink |
I paid close to $4K in child support this month. If you and your husband part ways, I wonder if Family Court will be as harsh on you as they are on most men. That's the post I look forward too.
Posted by Eddie on July 20, 2007 at 12:50 pm | permalink |
Remember that old saying about not seeing the forest for the trees? If someone other than your husband, but in the same position asked you for advice, what would you say? Since you are "the career expert in my household", try stepping back and looking at your situation as if you were not involved. What does he want? Does he want a career outside of the home? Do you know? Does he know? It must be old cliche day, but if you don't know where you are going, then any direction will do.
It is both refreshing and disconcerting to see that the maven of "advice at the intersection of work and life" doesn't have all the answers. I hope you continue to share your struggles with us and that you find a solution in time. I won't attempt to speak for the rest of the blogosphere, but I certainly find this thought-provoking.
Best wishes,
Dave
Posted by Dave on July 20, 2007 at 1:02 pm | permalink |
This is an honest post. We like to believe the happy-ever-after tales, particularly when popular media is full of them. I applaud you, Penelope, for not hiding anything.
I think this where blogging will make a difference — when most bloggers feel they can tell the truth as they know it we may get a more accurate representation of our society.
I wish the best of luck, Penelope.
Posted by Suze on July 20, 2007 at 1:04 pm | permalink |
You are somewhat famous now. Because of your blog, now people who don't even know you personally know your deepest, darkest secrets. Some things are meant to be private, especially between a husband and wife. You can't put that cat back in the bag!
Careerism is a huge problem, especially here. Most of the people in the world work to live, but we Yanks live to work. We define ourselves by our jobs. The job consumes most of our time and energy and there isn't much left for anything else. It is almost as bad for those who are successful as "success" is traditionally defined. They acheive success and look around and still aren't happy. Now what?
Housewives have it really tough also. My wife is a homemaker taking care of our almost 2 year old daughter. It is a very isolated way to live. How is it that one of the most important "jobs" in the world is looked down upon? Imagine how it must be for a man, and the traditional gender roles he is expected to live within. A commedian (George Carlin (?)) once said our basic choices are work and jail. Not only that, money or lack thereof conveys significant power.
The stay at home Dad arrangement isn't working out for your family. Let Dad go back to work doing something that utilizes his skills and iterests and things will be fine.
Posted by Steve on July 20, 2007 at 1:05 pm | permalink |
OK, so maybe all the happy SAHD's are blogging. But maybe that's a causal factor, instead of an effect. My husband did the SAHD thing between jobs for about 2 months. I was never happier. My daughter has never been so happy. It nearly killed my husband. Yes, most of Boomers and even Gen X self-worth is defined by earning power, but happiness, P so eloquently argues, is a matter of belonging to community.
If you are a SAHD, you don't get to go have coffee with all the other SAHMs. You don't go to MOPS, or volunteer, or anything else to get adult contact. If you're a blogger, you blog, and that could do it. But that didn't work for my husband.
Now, I am the primary breadwinner, and working part-time isn't an option. I think he and I both wish he could work part-time. But I think it's the loss of a community network to belong to that's so hard on many SAHD's. There's just no parallel to the outlets available to women in the same circumstance.
Penelope, I agree with earlier commenters: you've got to find something to like and value about your husband, and you've got to find a way to articulate that to him, and call it to mind when you start tearing him down. You need to do this because it will change the way you think about him, and that will change the way you interact with him. It will not change him.
Just, think of one thing you really like and really value about him, that is his, for him, and not about you. Not that he's detail-oriented which is really good for you because you are not.
Find something to admire. Then, admire it, verbally and sincerely.
I'm praying for you both…sounds like this is a tremendously difficult time.
Posted by Jenflex on July 20, 2007 at 1:12 pm | permalink |
"I know that there are a lot of stay-at-home dads. But while it may seem like there are a lot who are happy, I think it’s really just that every single one of the happy ones is blogging."
You're kidding, right? If he would only start blogging…!
Penelope, since you're advertising your marital problems to the world, I guess I can ask a few questions:
Who is giving up the most in this relationship?
Who has sacrificed more? Sounds like your husband has. Your work, it seems, takes more and more time away from the family, so the burden falls on him. Marriage is compromise. Your husband has given up a lot for your career, yet it sounds like your goals, your career, your wishes are of the utmost importance. What are you willing to give up for him?
And this bit: "…but I think it is career related since I have a great career and his sort of stalled when he became a stay-at-home dad and then went to hell from there." It sounds like you think he's a total failure. No wonder he wants a divorce.
"Surely writing stay-at-home dad on a LinkedIn profile cannot be good." What are your values here? Careers over parenting?
What's most important to you? Your career or your family? What are you willing to sacrifice to keep your marriage and family together?
You can't have it all. Yes, you can still be the Brazen Careerist, but maybe not so brazen–or just not be the Brazen Careerist all the time.
He may want the divorce, but I think–if there is still time to save the marriage–the ball is in your court. What are you going to do with it?
Posted by Tim on July 20, 2007 at 1:17 pm | permalink |
Penelope –
I love 98% of your blog. The direct and challenging look you give to career-related issues is always refreshing.
These posts on your marriage are troubling. From what I read (and infer), I have to agree with Brian. A husband needs respect and love and friendship. Just as does a wife.
None of us see the full picture here, but the picture you're presenting is that you don't in fact respect or support him, you think you're ten steps ahead of him (Is that in every area of his life, or just in your capacity as the career expert in the family? Hmm…), and somehow this is directly related to his being a stay-at-home dad.
You said: "My husband, in fact, has brought up divorce for other reasons. I am not totally sure which ones, to be honest, but I think it is career related since I have a great career and his sort of stalled when he became a stay-at-home dad and then went to hell from there."
You're not totally sure which ones, but you THINK it has to do with his career because you're doing great and he's handling your kids?
That looks ridiculously hard to believe. You really don't know? I certainly don't purport to know, but if I were in your shoes, I would sure as hell try to find out, and then try to do something about it.
Again, none of us has the full picture here, but I'm afraid the more you frame this the way you are, the more believable it is that you in fact are at least dismissive (and I hope not abusive, as you wrote in your other post, though maybe your definition of abusive is different from others) to him.
I certainly don't have a problem with the actual subject matter here. It's your right to write about it as you see fit. It's your condescending manner that's such a turn-off. That's a disappointment, since the rest of what you write is so good and helpful and refreshing.
Posted by John Sasina on July 20, 2007 at 1:20 pm | permalink |
Another $0.02: maybe the Millennials won't have it this bad with whomever they decide should stay home and raise the kids. They are already so much more fluid about how they define community, and depend on such different tools to maintain that community. Wish it were so already, but clearly it isn't.
I know I hear many of my cohorts (Gen X) saying that "they [GenY] will feel differently" someday, when they have kids/get a real job/really grow up/whatever. (God, I am channeling my mother's voice.) The reality will probably be some convergence…where stay-at-home parents have other community options, where work isn't the be-all, end-all, and where the focus is on earning a living, so you can enjoy your life.
Penelope, it's easy to say that you're on the bleeding edge of a changing culture, and maybe you are, but it seems like you're on the verge of paying a really high price.
Posted by Jenflex on July 20, 2007 at 1:28 pm | permalink |
scares me to death the fact that been a career expert you were not even able to effectively communicate with him…Gosh, time to re-think the blog rating
Posted by Dennis on July 20, 2007 at 1:31 pm | permalink |
Penelope –
I am not going to pretend to know everything about relationships. I have been engaged once in the past and it did not work out.
I have one observation about your blog. In your about me section you don't mention your family or your husband. I am sure that itself doesn't mean anything specific and I believe everything you have done in your career are all things you deserve.
But if I was your husband it could incorrectly suggest a lack of recognition and respect for him and his support (emotional, family, etc) to you. I am sure that is not so but often breakdown's in communication are about what we didn't mean to say or suggest rather than we do say. I am first to admit that I think some things that I should say out loud.
I may be off base and you may thank your husband and your family every time you speak but it was just an observation.
-Mike
P.S. I am engaged for a second time and I believe in my heart this will work out. She is older than my last financee and there is a great deal of understanding and respect between the both of us. When times are tough because we are so different we laugh and remember that our love is more important than silly differences in our interpretation.
Posted by Mike on July 20, 2007 at 1:35 pm | permalink |
I couldn't do it. Am I sexist? Maybe. It just wouldn't work well for me. But, interesting post and interesting comments.
I haven't seen replies from you to your comments on this post. Do you normally engage them?
Posted by Chris Brogan... on July 20, 2007 at 1:41 pm | permalink |
I don't think it's sexist as long as you don't not want to do it because you think it's women's work or something.
The fact is that some people, men and women, would not feel fulfilled or satisfied in life staying at home with the children. I'm not saying it can't be fulfilling to do this, but for a lot of people it isn't.
(btw, I feel the same way. I would go absolutely crazy!!!)
Lia
Posted by Lia on March 20, 2010 at 11:30 am | permalink |
I'd like to see you on TV with your own talk show! You have to be one of the most well-written/spoken bloggers on the Internet dealing with how one's career affects their personal life and vice versa. And you're not just talk…you're living the talk for real!
Posted by Valerie Parker on July 20, 2007 at 1:41 pm | permalink |
I only recently started reading your blog when I stubmled on it–great writing about career coaching, BTW–do keep it up.
Re the postings on your marriage, I'm curious to to know what your husband thinks about your blog postings? Have you talked about it? Does he like it? Does he not care? Does he not like it? Does he mind?
While you may be sitting down at your 'puter to blog and open up your heart and soul to your reader community (and it *is* appreciated) maybe its something that bites your hubby just a little bit, and it would seem, that at this stage, you need to do everything you can to IMPROVE your marraige–not make it worse.
Best of luck.
Posted by Alamgir Kahn on July 20, 2007 at 2:03 pm | permalink |
I was going to comment directly in here, but decided to blogpost about it… I'm not sure if my trackback worked, so here's my comment:
http://ccjjharmon.wordpress.com/2007/07/20/marriage/
BTW – I REALLY agree with Alamgir's comment about sitting down at your ‘puter to (fill in the blank for me) – when you are neglecting your own home. Boy have I done that before… Maybe take some time off – I'd bet strengthening your marriage would strengthen you more than you would expect.
Posted by Chris Harmon on July 20, 2007 at 2:35 pm | permalink |
I can't tell you how many conversations that I get into where the other party finishes what I'm telling them before I can.
What is amazing is that nearly every time, I think they're clairvoyant before I figure out that they read my blog.
Posted by Jon on July 20, 2007 at 2:41 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
No offense but you might take a look at yourself. Consider it this way. He doesn't have a job, but he STILL wants to get away from the woman who is supporting him.
Posted by scriblerus on July 20, 2007 at 2:52 pm | permalink |
Not to start a gender-based flame war, but why is it that the majority of male comments on this post are full of advice on what you should or shouldn't be doing right now, while the women are offering you support in this painful time?
Balancing work, kids, and a relationship is extremely difficult (I would argue almost impossible) in our society. All of us have our own unique struggles. I can't pretend to know what is right or will work for you or your husband or your kids and I don't think anyone else does either.
So don't let those guys who think they know how to fix you tell you what to do. Only you know what is right for you. Find your center and you will do the right thing.
Posted by Chris on July 20, 2007 at 2:52 pm | permalink |
Sheesh.
I won't even pretend to know what you should do or say. I just hope things work out for you and your family.
Posted by David Wescott on July 20, 2007 at 3:09 pm | permalink |
I might have come across as giving advice for what you need to do…. I know I've done that before. I didn't mean to come across as any expert by any means.
We ALL should have be supportive of each other (male or female) in our marriages – those married know how it is!
I 100% agree that balancing work, kids, and a relationship is extremely difficult but not impossible, it just takes a lot of patience and understanding and giving and taking.
My only hope was to say that I feel for you both, and maybe provide something to think about. If you don't want it, that's OK. I know sometimes I don't make the right choices – and just wanted to share my thoughts. That's why I blog… to share.
Posted by Chris Harmon on July 20, 2007 at 4:20 pm | permalink |
I was going to write a comment about how sorry I feel for your husband, you obviously look down on him so much. You perhaps have an awesome career, but you wouldn't have that if he hadn't stayed at home. How can you disrespect him so much…
But I won't, because someone will doubtless just point out how I missed the sharp, witty humour the post is just riddled with. Just as humourous as the revelations of abuse were…
Posted by sarah on July 20, 2007 at 4:22 pm | permalink |
For the love of God Sarah, we don't need to go down that road of "if it weren't for him, you would be nowhere". Everyone knows that is just what housewifes/husbands say when they are trying to leverage their way into a better divorce settlement.
And throwing the abuse word around is pretty frivolous usage of the word/concept.
Even if you accept that there would be better ways for PT to handle her success versus her husbands (arguable), calling someone an abuser because they are not as supportive as they could be, or even because they disclose information you don't think they should to the public, is just stupid and wrong.
Posted by Aaron Erickson on July 20, 2007 at 4:32 pm | permalink |
Blech. Whole lot of people getting their back up on behalf of Mr. P. — again. And, to my knowledge, he didn't ask for the outpouring of support. There seem to be a whole lot of struggle (on behalf of Mr. P) about how you should treat him, how he should define himself, etc. How different would the discussion be if you were a male blogger and he was your stay-at-home mama?
I know moms and dads both who stayed home — and it worked until it didn't. Navigating work and home is a tense place – whether the career is great or not – whether the kids are great or not. Re-evaluating the current situation seems to be the only sane thing to do.
You're brave to open yourself to a group of would-be marriage counselors, Penelope.
Posted by Meaghan on July 20, 2007 at 4:37 pm | permalink |
You are not sure why he is thinking about divorce? Don't you want to know? Can't you just ask: "Why are you so unhappy?" And then can you listen carefully, without interrupting, for as long as it takes him to answer? Maybe his answer is "I don't know" and he walks away. Maybe you've already asked a hundred times over. All I know is that, unless you two learn to communicate, you have no chance at all.
Posted by Jim on July 20, 2007 at 4:49 pm | permalink |
Penelope, you're a gutsy woman. Try for some humility but stay strong. Good luck.
Posted by Karl on July 20, 2007 at 5:05 pm | permalink |
You’re brave to open yourself to a group of would-be marriage counselors, Penelope.
Posted by Meaghan
Brave? I fear narcissistic might be the more
approrpriate term here.
"And the babysitter said, “Oh, don’t worry. I know. I read your blog.” Kind of chilling.
Posted by Tim on July 20, 2007 at 5:07 pm | permalink |
Wow… I'm still trying to decide how I feel about these marriage posts. If it's notoriety you're looking for, I think you'll get it.
This is strictly from my perspective, and I could be worlds away from your husband on this:
I would be extremely angry with my wife if she wrote about our marriage problems on her professional blog.
Granted, I DO HAVE an anonymous blog out there in the universe where I vent about all sorts of things. But I do not attach my name to it at all, and I do not link to it from my other web properties.
It's become very cathartic, but only because of the guaranteed privacy. I have the chance to identify with other people in the world without incriminating myself, my wife, or my employer.
You're either very brave or very careless… But based on the extensive comments this post has bred, perhaps you're onto something.
Posted by Daniel Dessinger on July 20, 2007 at 5:11 pm | permalink |
Wow.
I am in awe of the shiny bright light you're aiming at your own life, and sharing the dark and sticky bits you find as well as the good and wise.
My wife is a stay-at-home mom, homeschooling our three little ones. And at times she's had her struggles…though she still claims to enjoy what she's doing.
I haven't a clue what your day-to-day interaction is like with your husband, but my wife and I have done more than our fair share of marriage counseling. Bright light bulb went off (well, more "slowly came up from dim") when we realized how much we're both pretty busted and started dealing with ourselves.
Can't give what you don't got. I have a hard time giving my wife grace and space because I give myself little. (and don't even get me started with the kids) She's similar. We have our ups and downs.
Your husband has issues. And you ain't it. Now, you might not be _helping_ him all that much, but you are not the source of his pain. He's a big boy, and he makes choices.
Just like you.
(I say this glibly but I won't bore you with how long it took me to accept that my wife wasn't my problem…that is, either the cause of my unhappiness nor she a problem for me to fix.)
There is help. You can make it. So can he. And (wise) help can help. (but it'll still be damn hard)
I might suggest this book
Facing Codependence: What It Is, Where It Comes from, How It Sabotages Our Lives
…my wife just finished it, recommended it to me. Not the be-all-end-all, but some very good stuff.
Your mileage may vary.
Best wishes
Aaron
Posted by aaron on July 20, 2007 at 3:32 pm | permalink |
Notoriety is exactly what Penelope is looking for. For her, it's all about the page views – and this kind of "reality blogging" is what is currently selling. She even managed a plug for LinkedIn, who sponsor her. Gee, what a coincidence….not.
Posted by cynicalaboutbloggers on July 20, 2007 at 5:59 pm | permalink |
I jumped off of the fast track and was a SAHD for six years – and generally enjoyed it. Although it is probably noteworthy that I held a rewarding part time professional job during that whole time. I agree that people did view me differently at first, but I think the fact that I felt good about myself and my role came through. By the end of the conversation, I felt most people at least respected my choice, even if they didn't understand it.
I will tell you that it was much harder on my wife, though. I don't think it was a big issue at first, but as the years went on she became more and more resentful. Part of it was that she was jealous that she was missing out. Part of it was that I mostly just liked to play with the kids and wasn't very good at the housework part. But I think a very big part was that I no longer fit into her picture of what she wanted from a husband. I'm guessing that when young girls are growing up and imagining their future, very few dream about being the primary breadwinner and supporting a part time or full time stay at home husband.
So we talked it through and it took a while, but I was able to successfully return to the "normal" world, and my wife shifted down to part time. I can't say that I am an happier at work now than I was back then, except for my wife is much happier, and you know what they say: "happy wife = happy life". I think it takes two people to break away from a societal norm like this one. Its not enough that the husband is content. The wife needs to completely buy in too.
Posted by Kent on July 20, 2007 at 6:06 pm | permalink |
Penelope, your guest bloggers add so much to your already excellent blog –
I wonder if you and your husband would consider adding his voice to your blog? I'm not at all suggesting a he said/she said about your personal issues, but I'd love to hear in his words about his career journey and especially his stay-at-home-Dad experience.
Posted by willy on July 20, 2007 at 6:16 pm | permalink |
lol Brazen Careerist,
so not all is perfect in paradise.
I guess some stay at home-dads resent the wife being the bread winner, and others resent the wife throwing it in their face.
But as you say, if finance is not an issue for your partnership – and there is no pressure for hubby to become a high earner career person, then it is the ideal opportunity for him to get into whatever he likes best: building (or restoring) a boat yeah you know like grown airfix modelling, starting an allotment (vegetable patch), or hey volunteering or doing whatever social activity for low pay (or expenses), but where you get to choose the hours you do – and can still go to the kids games and prepare 'perfect' lunchboxes.
But Penelope, what am I doing trying to save your marriage. If there is only silent disregard for each other, and it is beyond repair – you can always call on me, if you are needing something more.
Posted by Quasar9 on July 20, 2007 at 6:53 pm | permalink |
This is the hardest thing in the world to do but I am suggesting it anyway—
Try To Take The Long View.
The stuff that seems so important, so overwhelming, right now will in 20 years seem laughably minor. The commentors are right, in the U.S. we do put way too much emphasis on work and money. People who devote their time to raising the next generation, which is incredibly important work, ARE looked down upon. And it stings.
But in 20 years–guess what, you're not going to care what people think! (This is provided you evolve, which you and your husband will, because you are thinking people.) So what I'm saying is try not to let that be a factor in what you do today. It's hard. But taking that Long View is tremendously helpful.
Posted by Working Girl on July 20, 2007 at 7:23 pm | permalink |
Here are some things to think about:
The only way to have a real discussion about the negative factors of stay-at-home parenting is to show what it does to a marriage.
The only way to have a real discussion about the intersection of life and work is to be real about marriage, which is what sits at that intersection.
I am the only one talking about this because people are so quick to judge anothers' marriage.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on July 20, 2007 at 8:37 pm | permalink |
There's alot of good advice here. Lotta hatin too. A marriage is work, man. Life is hard, and often times lonely. And a marriage is supposed to be commitment to always have each others back, no matter what. Thick and Thin. No man is an Island.
Aaron commented "my wife wasn’t my problem…that is, either the cause of my unhappiness nor she a problem for me to fix.", and that's where GOOD counseling can take you. Will I be happy: a) if I leave; b) if I just accept that she is a tyrant sometimes and move forward. I know which one I chose, and I'd do it again!
Posted by wayne on July 20, 2007 at 8:42 pm | permalink |
When did being a stay-at-home person become a bad thing? Bringing up children is wonderful and takes alot of dedication and hard work on its own. It's not something you need to be ashamed of or hide.
Posted by grace on July 20, 2007 at 10:51 pm | permalink |
"I am the only one talking about this because people are so quick to judge anothers’ marriage."
I have scanned the comments, and I don’t get the impression that your marriage is being judged. What I see are expressions of support together with admonitions that talk about marital problems is inappropriate for a public forum. Others are concluding that you’re trying to boost traffic by appealing to the rubberneckers out there. I don’t believe that’s the case, but I doubt that your opening up like this will help you resolve your personal issues. I think that those matters are between the two of you.
“As the career expert in my household, I always think I’m ten steps ahead of my husband.”
I agree that you have interesting insights about careers. That’s why I read. All the more reason why you should be able to help him with his work/life issues. You’re the Brazen Careerist for god’s sake! Help him out! No matter what happens, he’s the father of your child. Helping your husband will help your child.
Posted by Fred on July 21, 2007 at 12:24 am | permalink |
I think Penelope is brave and is performing a valuable service in sharing her thoughts on her marital situation. After all, this post is about the work-life continuum, and many of us are still trying to figure that out.
To me, Penelope's posts serve as cautionary tales to those of us in relationships: Here's what's wrong. Here's how we got there. Here's where I think we're going (and it's not good).
Thank you, Penelope, for your transparency. Keep up the good work, and please ignore the cynics, naysayers, and occasional chauvinists.
Posted by Leslie M-B on July 21, 2007 at 2:12 am | permalink |
I love the chances you take. Your honesty is refreshing. I am suspicious of people who pretend to always have it all and all together.
I've blogged about my 2 cents worth here.
http://clare-panton.blogspot.com/2007/07/parenting-skills.html
Posted by LaDawn on July 21, 2007 at 4:27 am | permalink |
Whew! The deja vu flashes were coming hot and heavy…
On paper all this "reverse the roles" stuff sounded really good back in the early 80's when my kids were still small and my husband's career started to hiccup. I had been freelancing as an EFL teacher to bring in some extra money, but as I watched the careers of my corporate student take flight, I was also champing at the bit to get into something meatier. In other words, I was only too happy to be able to jump in to support the family (he had also partially supported me through university…) and even happier to see my opportunities and earning power begin to soar into heights we hadn't actually expected.
We also hadn't expected what a black hole the whole stay-at-home dad phenomenon would actually become.
Oh, we had our good moments! There were quite a few couples in our circle of friends who considered us brave and progressive. It was also a bit of a hoot to hear our son's teacher tell us how our son totally broke through the parameters of a simple class assignment when he loudly (and proudly) proclaimed that he didn't have to think about what he wanted to be when he grew up, because MEN DON'T WORK.
Other moms in our town – a blue-collar and artisan-heavy suburb of a glitzier German city – either pitied or (over-)praised him, though. He was extremely frustrated when moms at the playground were excited and astounded he could perform simple tasks they knew they themselves could pretty much walk through in their sleep.
The other men were probably the worse. I'm sure I don't know even the tip of the iceberg of slights and backhanded comments he had to endure from X the builder and Y the construction company owner just to be able to still experience "going out with the boys" at least every once and awhile.
His attempts to launch and maintain his own freelance career in personnel development didn't take root, which partially had to do with our location. I believe it also had to do with the amount of self-confidence he had lost over the years, though, as well as feeling unable to catch up to me career-wise.
And the comfort zone I'd created also shouldn't be underestimated.
Long story short – He is now my ex. When I look at his life then and what it's become, would I do it all over again? *shrug*
Maybe with a different man.
Or in a parallel universe.
What any other scenario would have meant for my own career, or my attempts to somehow balance that career with my roles as wife and mother is still a bit too scary for me to think about in detail.
Posted by Trina Roach on July 21, 2007 at 5:29 am | permalink |
I've read the story 'My First Day of Marriage Counseling' as well. Somebody's marriage is quite a dark place to judge on it successfully unless being one of the spouses.
All I can see is that your husband must be really tired of marriage, looking after two children. It's genetically an integral part of women's nature to bear and breed them. Children are often closer to mothers too. You can hire a baby sitter, but what your husband said to the Doctor-Lawyer, is that he had given up his career. He thinks he has lost his chance, blames you and envious to your success.
Though, even you don't know exactly, what's the reason. If you feel that you shouldn't live together to grow and breed children together, than what's else a family for?
Posted by Andrey on July 21, 2007 at 7:00 am | permalink |
Both my husband and I have been "stay at home" at different times in our marriage. We nearly ended up divorced, until we learned some incredibly helpful habits…
The key to success:
Time – 15 hours a week together, no kids.
Conversation – part of the "time" component is spent both speaking and LISTENING to each other about our daily lives apart.
Recreation – a good marriage requires play time together.
Honest and openness – learn the difference between privacy and secrecy. Secrecy destroys marriages.
Respect – feeling superior to your spouse is a fast track to marriage-busting behavior
Posted by Patricia Barbiero on July 21, 2007 at 10:28 am | permalink |
Aaron, I wasn't going down the "if it weren't for him you would be nowhere path" I was going down the – show a fellow human being a bit of respect path.
And the word abuse didn't come from me, it came from him, in her last post.
Posted by sarah on July 21, 2007 at 11:00 am | permalink |
Has your husband thought about re-entering the workforce as a games programmer?
Posted by Carina on July 21, 2007 at 11:16 am | permalink |
I first found your blog because of your post "I'm Moving Out of New York City", and "How to Choose a Place To Live" (paraphrasing those titles, sorry). I wrote to you that we had moved from a more expensive place, to a bigger city where we could get a better house, and perhaps better opportunities. I also mentioned that after 3 or 4 years we were throwing in the towel, and moving back to our overpriced but comfortable location. All of that is relevant to what I just read on your post.
Our marriage, during this time of relocation, nearly died completely. He was working more, and I became a SAHM because re-establishing my biz was almost a joke here. I had no friends, no contacts, no place to go, and the weather made it worse. Lack of a real social network will destroy any marriage. Trust me. I've read some amazing work about how marriages crumble when the balance of power is off. And that almost always happens when a couple changes their dynamic drastically, as you and I have done in ours. Couples meet, they marry, and create a family based upon a certain power structure.. or equality. When a move or a job change or layoff suddenly puts one person in a position of weakness (home all day without adult interaction), the balance is off and the marriage suffers. It's okay if a couple starts out that way, but it's the change in balance during the relationship that can cause all the problems.
We're still working on the re-relocation, securing a job for him there, putting the house on the market, etc. It will take a long time to repair the damage to the relationship from this move, if that's even possible.
I wish for you whatever outcome you'd like from all of this turmoil and relationship introspection. Perhaps the issue of the relocation should be examined in your situation.
Posted by Diana on July 21, 2007 at 11:41 am | permalink |
I would have divorced you a long time ago as you are the most self-conceited person I've ever seen. I read your column as I'm still trying to figure out if you are for real or if this is all a big joke.
Posted by Linda on July 21, 2007 at 12:14 pm | permalink |
Ten years ago I became a stay-at-home-dad because my wife was offered a wonderful promotion (she had planned and desired to stay home). I did this for two years.
It was a great experience, but also the hardest job I have ever had.
Before I took on the role for parent and primary home-maker, cook, etc…. we created a "stay at home parent job description" to be sure that neither my wife nor myself mis-understood what the job involved.
This is what most couples fail to understand….this is a job…every bit as hard, demanding and important as the person who works for a large corporation. But the downside is that you never get to be away from the job. No days off, not time away…and if you feel overwhelmed you cannot just sneak out for 30 minutes and run to Starbucks.
I could write a whole book on this topic, and none of your readers probably care about a longer post….but if your husband needs someone to talk to who really understands….have him email me. I can give him prospective, as I have been back in the work world for 8 years, and my wife has been a stay-at-home-mom for 7 years.
thom
Posted by Thom Singer on July 21, 2007 at 1:57 pm | permalink |
I was pointed to this post from another blog because I almost couldn't believe what I read there. And, well, um, I hope this is a joke and any money you make here is split 20-80 in favor of your husband after the divorce because this is abusive, pure and simple.
Posted by Rich on July 21, 2007 at 2:23 pm | permalink |
I've got no experience in this realm – no stories to relate, no advice to offer. I just wanted to send my wishes for the best of all possible outcomes for you, your husband, and your son – whatever that outcome might be.
Posted by Jeri Dansky on July 21, 2007 at 4:32 pm | permalink |
I'm afraid I have to remove your blog from my feeds. I don't have a problem with your expressing your feelings on these topics, but I think this blog which purports to be all about career advice isn't the best place to do so. A separate personal blog might be in order. Best of luck to you and your marriage.
Posted by Carm on July 21, 2007 at 4:43 pm | permalink |
"No matter what happens, he’s the father of your child. Helping your husband will help your child."
This is the bottom line in these things. How does a man (or woman) love their child? By loving (and caring for) the child's other parent.
Sometimes it's the hardest thing in the world to do. It can also be the easiest.
"Children are one third of our population and all of our future." ~Select Panel for the Promotion of Child Health, 1981
Posted by Maureen Sharib on July 21, 2007 at 4:54 pm | permalink |
Maybe your husband should start a blog called stay-at-home-dad so we can get both sides that way the comunication channels are open and free.
Plus it would be a rating winner plus it might actual help your relationship especially with communication.
For some people are not good at expressing their feelings.
That will be 10 dollars please.
damm Iam good
Posted by jon on July 21, 2007 at 5:16 pm | permalink |
Wow, how wonderful to see such honesty.
Although we have no kids, our marriage has been suffering because my husband is currently unemployed – I can't imagine myself feeling as bad as he does, because even unemployed, I would manage to have something to do (um, blogging more than likely), but he's distraught over it. We're finally moving, which will solve the problem, but I really just don't think men are cut out for staying at home. Ever.
Posted by Jillian on July 21, 2007 at 5:23 pm | permalink |
Penelope, I just wanted to point out that I think some of your readers are being very sexist in criticizing you about the way you write about your husband. I used to listen to Howard Stern a while back when he was still married and he would discuss his marriage problems and his sex life in more detail than you describe yours, and nobody ever called in and accused him of being abusive. Well of course, his whole thing is that he's honest to a fault no matter how abusive he sounds. But my point is that his wife was supposed to just take it because that was his career and she knew it when she married him. But in this case since it's your husband, he's being "abused" and "emasculated" I think just because he's a man and you're a woman and you're supposed to take the passive, accepting role in the marriage. It is pissing me off.
Posted by Lucky Joy on July 21, 2007 at 6:09 pm | permalink |
Howard Stern and his wife discussed being public prior to being married and, no surprise, they aren't now.
Public embarrassment is a form of abuse, regardless of gender. Look it up. Encouraging two people two to share their problems for public comment is fraught with peril. No good will come of it. At best it will only serve to feed egos, damage reputation, and might make the couple act on the advice of a stranger who cannot possibly understand because they do not have the benefit of being there to see anything but the perception of two people; at worst, it may encourage others to project what they read here into their own relationships and cause problems where they do not belong.
Good luck to you both; you will need it on this path. Best, Rich
Posted by Rich on July 21, 2007 at 7:33 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
I believe you've mentioned in a previous post that you're of the Jewish faith. Having said this, your moral compass, if you will, ought to be the faith which you profess. I'm not an expert on the Torah, but I believe their are some guidelines within in it which ought to govern the marriage relationship, as it applies to you as a wife within the marriage. It is my prayer that you and your husband work this out. Marriage is the greatest challenge any couple will undertake. I speak from my own experience in my one marriage. So, since I'm addressing you (as I don't know your husband) suck it up and fix it! I'm sure you never quit on the court or the beach, so why now in the most important "match" of your life? Fight for your marriage PERIOD.
Posted by Dave the Volleyball Mgr. on July 21, 2007 at 7:41 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
Dear you know I love your work and I wish you the best with this sticky new situation. My advice…since you are doing well, hire the babysitter (nanny) and let Dad go back to work. We men need to feel we are contributors. Bottom line, regardless of how the new society might want to see it – we still need to be out there hunting and bringing the kill back to the house.
Secondly, don't let your blog become diluted, please stay focused on the stuff that is helping so many of us become recognized like yourself. Peace be with you both, I'm pulling for you and your husband to work it out. Remember your team play on the court.
Blake
Posted by Blake Thomas on July 21, 2007 at 9:46 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
I hope you have the best possible outcomes for your marriage, family and career. I send you thoughts of support!
Heather
Posted by Heather Mundell on July 21, 2007 at 11:46 pm | permalink |
Penny,
Thanks, but please take care.
Posted by Dale on July 22, 2007 at 12:22 am | permalink |
I agree that your post is very open and honest. I admire you for that. I'm a stay-at-home Dad with a blog and a career on hold and I've never been completely honest about how I came to be a stay-at-home Dad. On the surface, my family and I are very happy. And, right now, we're happy below the surface too. But it hasn't always been that way. Don't assume that all stay-at-home Dads who blog are happy; you only know what we want you to know. Marriage is always ups and downs. It's how we handle the downs that defines the marriage.
Posted by Darren on July 22, 2007 at 12:39 am | permalink |
My husband was a stay-at-home dad for a little while but not by choice. People have provided great advice so it is up to you and your hubby to turn your situation around.
I am also an author, like you. My new book is called Mama Peavy says, "Women, It's OK to Marry an Ugly Man." I am Mary R. Butler.
Posted by Mary R. Butler on July 22, 2007 at 9:23 am | permalink |
The fact that your husband listed his former career on the career line says a lot to me. For him, I suspect, it's not about climbing the corporate ladder, jockeying for a big raise, or acquiring an impressive title on his business card. Creative people are driven by other standards… like the look on a users face when he/she tests your game and screams "oh, how cool!" or the feeling of accomplishment you get when you figure out a fix to a bug that's been baffling your team for weeks.
Perhaps (together) you can redefine the measures of success for his career. I hope he finds an outlet for his creativity. And I wish you both the best.
Regards,
Stephanie
Posted by littlepurplecow on July 22, 2007 at 11:02 am | permalink |
Wow Miss P, I am so sorry.
I hope your family makes it, and I hope your marriage makes it.
I hope it doesn't come to divorce, been there, not fun.
Posted by finance girl on July 23, 2007 at 12:02 am | permalink |
What a bunch of drivel, you clearly have serious problems in your marriage and your character assassination of stay at home fathers does little to cover it up. I hope you have no more kids.
Posted by Peter on July 23, 2007 at 6:53 am | permalink |
Bob (my husband) calls me Misery. It’s one of the more endearing endearments he tosses my way on occasion and I think he takes it from the 1990 Stephen King movie starring James Caan and Kathy Bates.
Words used to describe that tale of terror are as follows:
dark
witty
brisk
taut
cynical
torturous
drama
thriller
horror
suspenseful
tightly tensioned
dread
scary
wild
bizarre
All that being said, Misery has been compared to Hitchcock’s achievements in "Psycho" in that it entertains without seeming exploitative. I believe THAT is what Penelope is attempting to achieve in her gran mal description of what’s going on in her marriage today – she is attempting to inform rather than entertain (but hey, the “entertainment” value is definitely there, let’s not ignore the guerilla in the room –if it’s too much for you to read, guys, just look away; you can do that, can't you?) and in so doing she is being accused of exploitation.
Phooey with that! Her reporting of the basic situation she is faced with is what makes the retelling so serious and so compelling – by comparing the sometimes nightmarish, desperate scenario she finds herself in against our own “sometimes nightmarish, desperate scenarios”…well, I hope you get the picture. We all benefit from her disclosures – even her husband, though he may not yet see it, immersed in the situation as he probably is. Penelope brings us humor, not at his expense but at her own. It’s this ability to laugh that helps us survive our ordeals and Penelope has the sense God gave a mule to laugh at herself. Like I do, when Bob calls me “Misery”.
;)
Maureen Sharib
Telephone Names Sourcer
Posted by Maureen Sharib on July 23, 2007 at 7:10 am | permalink |
Hello Penelope,
There are some very good comments on here, but also some very aggresive/angry comments on here. This is your blog and you can write whatever it is that you feel appropriate. If people don't want to read they can stop. The title pretty much gives the reader a clue as to what they are about to read, if they choose to move forward so be it. Good luck to you and your husband…and let me say this; Madison is a lot more than a "silly little college town." You picked a great state to move to and I hope you are enjoying it.
Posted by Matt Bingham on July 23, 2007 at 12:11 pm | permalink |
Hey Penelope,
I think it is a good first step for your husband to be looking for a job, even if it is part time. Having a "baby sitter" will help, but maybe your are talking about more of a nanny type than baby sitter? When I read "baby sitter" I think more of a short term, perhaps revolving door of who can sit today versus tomorrow arrangement. Maybe it's too early to make more permanent arrangements, but it will be coming soon if he finds a job soon.
About not talking with each other at home: I think many couples are like this. You reach a point where neither side is ready to give in to the other and you think one more argument may send it over the edge. It's almost like a dare to the other person to be the first to speak again. It's a lot about power and of fear. Seeking the upper hand versus being too vulnerable. Silence is never a good solution. It usually produces more anger or worse, apathy. When it comes down to it, we are all selfish in one way or another and it is difficult to see another's point of view without interjecting our own views.
I hope that you two can find a way to get past this time of turmoil in your marriage. Each person has the right to not like what is going on in his/her own life and that includes how those around affect one another. We decide if we will tolerate those things we don't like and what we will do about it. If your marriage fails, try not to look at the faults of the other or to blame yourself. We each have our own free will to decide to stay or go. No one makes the decision for us to leave or stay. It's whether or not we can accept or tolerate differences in the other. If your husband doesn't like the way certain things are in your marriage it is his decision whether those problems are unacceptable to stay together. It is his and your decision whether one or the other can/will change to accomodate the other. Marriage is a lot of give-and-take, a lot of compromise.
We don't know how your husband truly feels as he does not blog in this forum and perhaps he wishes not. I would venture a guess he is burned out on being a stay-at-home dad and needs something of substance outside of the home to attach his life to. Getting a job is vital to him, I believe not only for his own self-worth and sanity, but also for his future should the two of you wind up divorced.
Don't stop talking/communicating with one another. No matter how painful, no talking only makes things worse. Try to keep personal jabs out and try to speak about how you feel, not what you think the other person feels. When my wife and I have argued, it often very quickly come apparent that one or both of us have a misconception of what has been bothering the other and what we think the other is thinking. Keep talking and get to a point of decision. Be compassionate and respectful that the other person has their own view which may not be the same as yours. Decide for yourself if you will change because you cannot make the other change unless they are willing. Many times if you require the other person to change, they will: from a married person to an unmarrried person. Unless what you are doing is illegal or immoral, the other person has no right to demand you to change. But if both are unwilling to change some things for the good of the other, then the question arises if you truly have a marriage/partnership or just a legal arrangement.
Posted by gt on July 23, 2007 at 12:49 pm | permalink |
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something.
You can use your blog to vent about your marriage problems if you want to. That's your right. Nobody can stop you.
But then you own the consequences.
And that's true even if your husband didn't mind you writing about your sex life 15 years ago.
If you are as interested in making this work as you seem to be, then love the person your husband is, rather than who he was or who you wish he were.
Part of that will be getting to know who he is. And who he is might be someone who doesn't relish his shortcomings discussed on the internet.
I can't tell you not to post about your personal life. I can tell you what I suspect the consequence of that will be — your husband will be reluctant to share things with you and move closer to divorce.
You can consider this "judgement" and rebel against it, or consider it additional data that can help you make a more informed choice.
It appears you're inclined to do the former; I believe the adult decision is the latter.
Posted by JohnMcG on July 23, 2007 at 2:11 pm | permalink |
Well, it appears Ms. Trunk deleted my comment that was between maureen and matt's comments above. perhaps because I used a swear word? I forget some people are as offended by cursing as I am by corporate buzzspeech.
Here it is again, without the f-bomb, to see if it was that word, or the message that bothered her:
"I don’t think it’s brave, or commendable, or interesting, and certainly not original to be airing your marital dirty laundry on a blog. I am not here to comment on your specific situation, I have no desire to elaborate on how clear it is you have very little respect for the man you married.
I am commenting because you wrote this:
“I know that there are a lot of stay-at-home dads. But while it may seem like there are a lot who are happy, I think it’s really just that every single one of the happy ones is blogging.”
It’s unfortunate that you have decided to project the unfortunate issues with your own marriage on such a wide swath of men who have decided for whatever reason to take a non-traditional path, basing your conclusion on the oh-so-scientific poll of looking around at your neighbors in a silly little college town.
Maybe the reason your stay-at-home dad acquaintances didn’t want to talk to your hotshot friend is that most journalists set out to write features based on [deleted] baseless conclusions that they have already made, such as “almost all stay-at-home dads are unhappy.”*
*Except for those, like me, who happen to write about the experience on the internet."
Posted by dutch from sweet juniper on July 23, 2007 at 2:57 pm | permalink |
I'll add one more bullet point:
* Mentions that he "delegated" finding a therapist to her because he is too busy blogging.
Posted by JohnMcG on July 23, 2007 at 3:32 pm | permalink |
i've been a stay-at-home-dad for seven years now and i'm am very happy in doing that. but last year things took a turn for the worse and we ended up in counseling. the bottomline was basic: my wife thought being the at home person was not enough, that as a man i needed to do more to contribute to the family. so it was the gender reversal that got us thinking: what if i WAS the breadwinner and i cam home and said that to my wife. how would she react? sometime you just have to wear the other shoe. so we made it past that rough spot and now she give me credit for raising two boys and i give her credit for shouldering the financial burden. oh, and being in a punk rock band sure helps me get my stress out!
Posted by Greg Barbera on July 23, 2007 at 3:46 pm | permalink |
One more note for those who think it's just those mean men who might think there might be some room for improvement in Penelope's approach to her marriage.
Imagine a career man married to a SAHM, who described his marriage similar to how Penelope had described hers, including:
* Divulging details about mediation sessions without making it clear that he had his wife's permission to do so.
* Having no idea that his wife wanted a divorce.
* Not knowing the reasons why his wife wanted said divorce.
* Dropping another mention of how great his career is going, and that he mentioned this to the mediator.
* Refer to how her career "sort of stalled."
* Mention how much better she is at details than he is, and that she's good at making lunch boxes, whereas the kid rejects hers.
OK — I’ll tell you how this one would play out — the husband would be accused of passive aggressively screwing up the lunches on purpose so that it would be his wife’s responsibility, like everyhing else…
* Refers to himself as the “career expert in the household” and how he thinks this makes him “ten steps ahead” of his wife.
—-
I can think of a few words women would use to describe such a husband, and “brave” and “honest” aren’t among them.
Posted by JohnMcG on July 23, 2007 at 2:58 pm | permalink |
Greg B. is a good example of what appears to be the stereotypical response to a man wanting to stay home with the kids: he is a man and needs to contribute more to the bottom line. This is the type of attitude that all men must face in this day: a no-win situation. Our country values finances as the measure of a person; for men more so than women. Men are supposed to be the breadwinners or at least bring home an equal share of the budget. Many women attain their status through their husband's financial position. I have heard many women talk about SAHD's and most are not supportive. Most describe the man as lazy, deadbeat, no ambition, etc. Women don't get those tags when they choose to stay at home; at least not anywhere near the frequency as men. We still live in a time where men are expected to bring home the main support of the family and women in those families can choose more often to work or not. Much of the time it makes sense for the man to be the one who works because men generally make more money than women. That's not fair, but it's the way things have been and still are today. With salaries becoming more equal, much of that shift seems to be for a choice to be made as to who will stay at home. At this time, equal pay or even more pay for the wife is not the issue. It unfortunately is the society's gender roles that determine which route to take. Men staying at home are the pioneers at this time. Some will survive, but I believe many more will fail. For those men who have chosen that role and have the full support of their wife, it will still be difficult. Unfortunately our society is not ready for SAHD's, at least not in the way they are valued. Can they do as good of a job as a woman at home? I believe yes. Will they be valued as well as women in that role by our society? I believe no. Is that fair? No, but that's where we are right now. Unfortunately, I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Posted by gt on July 23, 2007 at 5:56 pm | permalink |
Certainly I wish you luck with your marriage and I hope things go the best possible way for you.
I'd love to discuss the SAHD issue with you at BlogHer. I've got one 'round these parts and it's not making him so happy either.
Posted by Mom101 on July 24, 2007 at 11:15 am | permalink |
I admire your honest and candid article talking about your own life and marriage. I had a similar situation. With two small kids running around the house, I barely have time to talk with my husband on topics not related with childcare. sometimes I found I don't quite know my husband because we talk so little about ourselves, our careers. Basically, we are too busy at home and at work. Then I found out a way to talk to my husband. He likes to chat with friends online through IM. So during the day, I will chat with him through MSN or yahoo messenger for a while to exchange the ideas about work, career goals and all sorts of things in our life. It works pretty well. this open communication channel really helps. although we still lack of time sitting together to talk face to face, but at least I know what is really in his mind. Hope everything gets better for you.
Posted by Sarah on July 25, 2007 at 11:11 am | permalink |
Dear Penelope,
I hope that your marriage will be better with time. Sometimes, time and perhaps "missing each other" (i.e. spending a few months in different locations) help people to remember how much they love eachother and how connected they are.
I am not sure if this info can be of any help, but I recently heard of a statistic that gender roles in Australia has changed completely. Meaning about 80% of couples have reversed, non traditional roles-i.e. men staying at home with kids and women being the breadwinner. Maybe, being in contact with some professionals/researchers etc in Australia might bring different insights or solutions.
Posted by Fati Erdogan on July 25, 2007 at 2:12 pm | permalink |
I'm eager to learn more about stay-at-home dads because that's currently my situation:
I'm the career gal, and he will most likely be the stay at home dad. He does have a part time job he loves – massage – but right now just being the stay at home housewife hasn't been sitting terribly pretty. Despite the fact that for years it wasn't even blinked at that the woman stayed home and took care of the cleaning, the laundry, dinner, etc…I'm getting a lot of pushback on how "little I do around the house."
I'm not sure how to handle this because I don't want to demean his position, but frankly – I kind of consider it his job responsibility at this time to take care of the house – sort of a way to "keep up" with what I bring in. I don't want to bring it to money or point out that he's not fulfilling his half…but that's how I often feel.
We have to sit down and have talks with each other regularly about this – and it gets better and we are still very close and happy in our marriage. I'm concerned how it will be with children, though.
Wish your husband would blog about it…
* * * * * *
I don't think it works for one person to do all the stuff around the house. It's too hard. Taking care of a house is harder than going to work. At work people reward you , you have new, interesting things to do, you get money in exchange for showing up, it's all very structured and kudos-based. At home, it's less predictable, devalued by society, and has a less structured reward system.
This is why I think that even if one person is at home and one working outside the home, both have to help with the home. This is how we do it. I know, you're thinking what a joke that I'm giving advice when my marriage is not working. But we've been doing lots of experimenting for the last five years, and we've tried it both ways, and it does not feel right to me having him do everything at home. Being a team is nicer, even if I'm only doing a little
Finally, you can't keep score about who does more or less. Marriage is never even.
–Penelope
Posted by Lane on July 26, 2007 at 5:52 pm | permalink |
Lane,
Think about how those words would sound coming out of a man's mouth:
"I kind of consider it her job responsibility at this time to take care of the house – sort of a way to “keep up” with what I bring in. I don’t want to bring it to money or point out that she’s not fulfilling her half…but that’s how I often feel."
Posted by JohnMcG on July 26, 2007 at 6:41 pm | permalink |