You can’t manage your work life if you can’t talk about it
Recently I ran the following twitter:
“I’m in a board meeting. Having a miscarriage. Thank goodness, because there’s a fucked-up 3-week hoop-jump to have an abortion in Wisconsin.”
Why the uproar over this twitter?
Not only have bloggers written whole posts about the disgustingness of it, but 70 people unfollowed me, and people actually came to my blog and wrote complaints about the twitter on random, unrelated posts.
So, to all of you who think the twitter was outrageous, think about this:
Most miscarriages happen at work. Twenty-five percent of pregnancies end in miscarriage. Seventy-five percent of women who are of child-bearing age are working. Most miscarriages run their course over weeks. Even if you are someone who wanted the baby and are devastated by the loss, you’re not going to sit in bed for weeks. You are going to pick up your life and get back to it, which includes going back to work.
This means that there are thousands of miscarriages in progress, at work, on any given day. That we don’t acknowledge this is absurd. That it is such a common occurrence and no one thinks it’s okay to talk about is terrible for women.
Throughout history, the way women have gained control of the female experience is to talk about what is happening, and what it’s like. We see that women’s lives are more enjoyable, more full, and women are more able to summon resilience when women talk openly about their lives.
To all of you who said a miscarriage is gross: Are you unaware that the same blood you expel from a miscarriage is what you expel during menstruation? Are you aware that many people are having sex during menstruation and getting it on the sheets? Are you aware that many women actually like period sex? Wait. Here is a link I love, at askmen.com, telling men that women like it so much that men need to be aware of this preference.
To all of you who are aghast that I let myself get pregnant: having sex is playing with odds. There are no 100% sure methods of birth control. I am 42 years old. The likelihood of someone my age getting pregnant even with fertility treatment is less than 5%. The likelihood that a pregnancy in someone my age ends in a miscarriage is almost 75%. This means that even if I had done nothing for birth control it would have been as effective as a 25-year-old using a condom. So everyone who is complaining that I’m an idiot for getting pregnant should go buy a calculator.
To all of you who said I should not be happy about having a miscarriage: You are the ones short on empathy. Any woman who is pregnant but wishes she weren’t would of course be grateful when she has a miscarriage. Yes, there are many women who want the baby and have a miscarriage. I was one of them. I cried for days. I get it.
But if you have ever had an abortion, which I have, you would know that a miscarriage is preferable to an abortion. Even the Pope would agree with that.
And what is up with the fact that just one, single person commented about how Wisconsin has a three-week waiting period for abortions? It is absolutely outrageous how difficult it was going to be for me to get an abortion, and it’s outrageous that no one is outraged.
Wisconsin is one of twelve states that have 24-hour waiting periods. This puts a huge burden on an overworked system. These are also the states where there are few ways to get an abortion. For example, in Wisconsin, the only place to get abortion that is covered by insurance is at a Planned Parenthood clinic. There are 3 of them in all of Wisconsin. In Chicago, you can get an abortion at Planned Parenthood with less than 24 hours notice. In Wisconsin, there is a week and a half wait to get the first meeting and a week and half wait to get the abortion.
A digression: I’m linking to Planned Parenthood so everyone can make a donation. This organization is enabling women to have the right to abortion. Planned Parenthood seems to be the only effective, community-level force against states that are attempting to legislate the choice into oblivion.
To all of you who think this has nothing to do with work:
I think what really upsets people is the topic. We are not used to talking about the female experience, and especially not in the context of work. But so what? We can start now. The female experience is part of work. What we talk about when we talk about work defines how we integrate work into our lives. If work is going to support our lives, then we need to talk about how our lives interact with work. We need to be honest about the interaction if we hope to be honest about our work.
Hey Barb:
Nice try, but guess again. I have already stated on here that I have nothing to hide and thus use my real name. You can check with the Webmaster on here and verify that Beth V is writing from a whole different area than me.
I got a BA with a double major from Missouri Baptist University in 1979. Went to grad school at Minnesota State University. Went to nursing school at Rochester and did clinicals at the Hospital used by the Mayo Clinic.
I am not trying to manipulate or patronize women. I am simply stating facts. Is there abuse in this world, there sure is, but no one wants to look at or address abuse by women in this society or even bother to admit to reverse sexism. Sexists proclaim that it is all the men’s fault.
When you try to make this point, then of course as a man you are acccused of being misogynistic. I grew up in the south and if you try to make any points about blacks you are accused of being racist. I have heard too many times blacks laughing among themselves and telling each other if they don’t get their way, they will just yell prejudice.
I answer that to the blacks: You bet I am prejudiced, I am prejudiced against stupidity which knows no color boundaries.
As to obfuscate, it is a common word among college educated individuals, both men and women. Just because a woman used it as well as me, does not mean that I am that woman.
We can’t resolve sexism and abuse without talking about it and women admitting to their own faults. Refusing to admit to them is the height of sexism whether you admit it or not. Penelpe herself has made numerous posts that women are far ahead of men in today’s society. Is she too sexist, prejudiced or a misogynist as well?
John,
“I grew up in the south and if you try to make any points about blacks you are accused of being racist. I have heard too many times blacks laughing among themselves and telling each other if they don’t get their way, they will just yell prejudice.”
How many times and what were the occassions you heard blacks laughing and threatening to yell prejudice? Again, I don’t deny this sometimes happens but I have personally never heard it. Would you say that blacks on the whole want more than equal rights (like you believe women on the whole want more than equal rights)? I am going to go out on a limb and assume you are Caucasian.
As a white woman I would be unable to estimate the countless discriminating and harassing comments and jokes I have heard made to and about blacks by whites or to and about women by men (Regrettably, I have been guilty of repeating racist jokes myself). I will never believe that you have not heard (and obviously continue to pass on) many, many more negative comments about and directed at women and blacks.
It is only logical thinking to understand that oppressed groups will have anger and revengeful feelings.
Sexism and racism runs deep and is alive and well in our country.
Just curious, what is your degree actually in?
Barb:
It is obvious you don’t believe my credentials so why don’t you call the school for yourself. I have given my real name, told you the University I graduated from and what year.
You have obviously lead a sheltered life. I was immersed in black culture and have seen and heard the comments to which I refer many times over the years.
It is fruitless to talk to you because you refuse to concede even one point. Certainly racism and sexism exists in this country. Its just that women talk about sexism like it is a unisex crime committed only by men.
Unless and until you concede some points are true, it is fruitless to answer you. It is not a conversation, you just want to perpetuate the victim hood myth and that all men are bad and all of the abuse and all of the problems are white male oriented.
John,
If you look over my comments, you will see that I don’t “refuse to concede to even ONE point.” If you look over your comments (as well as Beth Vs who you at one point believed to be a man but now state is a woman), you will see that both have a condescending, all or nothing tone to them irregardless of whether or not I believe you are the same person as Beth V.
I do not believe that women on the whole want in your words, “more than equal rights”. I realize that discrimination, control and abuse happens by and to all groups. Anyone can point this out, find examples of what they are looking for, write an article/book and thereby perpetuate a victim role for their own group. This does not however change the fact that one group in our country has historically taken and been given more rights than any other group. Equality is typically harder to accept for those who have previously been in control, not for those who haven’t.
Please don’t put words into my mouth. I do not “want to perpetuate the victim hood myth that ALL men are bad and ALL of the abuse and ALL of the problems are white male oriented.” When I was married to an abusive man, I did not see myself as a victim (nor do most people when they are in abusive situations – they are trying to survive). I actually covered up and down-played the abuse in my marriage when others asked. Inside I felt like I was the problem, was worthless and that if I could just be what he wanted, he would stop.
I also never denied that you’ve heard threats to cry racism by others. I only stated that I believe you’ve heard “many, many more negative comments about and directed at women and blacks”. Who is playing the victim card?
You have your life experiences and I have mine. Our realities are shaped by those experiences. I agree to disagree with you. I don’t believe most women in your words believe that “all men are bad” nor do I think all or even close to most “feminists believe that WOMEN CAN DO NO WRONG, IT IS ALL THE MEN’S FAULT” I personally believe all or nothing ways of thinking are very dangerous to ourselves and each other — to say nothing of causing violence and wars.
You do not know how “sheltered” my life is or isn’t. Maybe if I could be as wordly as you then we’d get along just fine and you wouldn’t feel it so “fruitless” to talk with me. Oh well, – great time for you to take “Flight”.
Best wishes.
In the light of this post (http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2003/11/25/sometimes-work-is-a-welcome-distraction/) the current one makes a lot of sense.
Directed from here: (https://twitter.com/penelopetrunk/status/5473932857)
Penelope, I agree with every single sentiment in your post.
I agree with transparency.
I agree with period sex.
I agree with you and everyone having the right to make their own choices (esp. with their own bodies) and communicate their opinions, even (and esp.) when they push buttons because buttons force reaction and reaction triggers honesty and honesty catalyzes change.
AND, I agree that it all has everything to do with work, cause work is a massive integral often grossly-consuming part of life.
The fact that people aggressively assume you are a foul-mouthed rabble-rouser instead of an incredibly perceptive, real (and therefore imperfect) person/woman who has seen, experienced, and read a few things in her time is appalling to me, and they should be far more ashamed of themselves than you should ever think of feeling.
AND, the fact that this one tweet (of 1000s) is what makes you significantly and globally more newsworthy instead of your insightful intellect is a big fat light shedding itself on the tragedy that is mainstream media banging down and building up the same doors they burn down to get their big story.
Thank you for being entirely you.
I am grateful, for what it’s worth.
Barb,
It appears you have inadvertently created "false assumptions" leading you to make "false statements" and reach a "false conclusion."
These "false conclusions" are illustrated in your statement(s) you made earlier and are listed below.
Barb states on this blog, "Hi John (aka Beth V. – “obfuscate” gave you away by the way). It bothers me that you seem to be deliberately trying to patronize and manipulate women."
However, I do not know your motive(s) for your statements. I can only "assume" your motives are innocent. I repeat, “I assume.” I have no “facts” or “logical basis” for your motives to make this statement true or false.
You presented a reply based upon "Creative Obfuscation” or to confuse the reader(s) with a point of view. You appear to attack the credibility and independent corroboration without the facts and logic.
Rather than dispute the logic or facts, you used emotional appeal with "Creative Obfuscation." It allows and argues that paraphrasing allow writers to taint the evidence and causes the loss of the speaker’s voice and the loss of credibility and independent corroboration with facts and logic.
Simply stated, you are attempting to attack the "credibility of a writer" or "point of view" with "emotions" rather than facts and logic.
Please use logic and facts, not the appeal to emotions and false assumptions.
Be honest about simple facts!
I still suggest “Feminists are inherently illogical.”
Beth V.
Beth V.,
The simple fact is that emotions are part of the human experience — male and female.
I suggest “Beth V. is emotionally deficient.” Key word “suggest”.
Barb
Let me suggest, when someone attempts to use the "emotionally deficient” word, they are trying to create "Invalidation." We call that "emotional abuse" and very typical of those who are "mentally unhealthy."
When someone uses invalidation, they are guilty of "psychological abuse."
"Invalidation" may be the single most damaging form of "psychological abuse."
Psychological invalidation is one of the most lethal forms of emotional abuse. It kills confidence, creativity and individuality.
I quote the research facts, “Psychiatrist R.D. Laing said that when we invalidate people or deny their perceptions and personal experiences, we make mental invalids of them. He found that when one’s feelings are denied a person can be made to feel crazy even they are perfectly mentally healthy.”
Invalidation is to reject, ignore, mock, tease, judge, or diminish someone’s feelings. It is an attempt to control how they feel and for how long they feel it.
Recent research by Thomas R. Lynch, Ph.D. of Duke University supports the idea that invalidation leads to mental health problems.
He writes “…a history of emotion invalidation (i.e., a history of childhood psychological abuse and parental punishment, minimization, and distress in response to negative emotion) was significantly associated with emotion inhibition (i.e., ambivalence over emotional expression, thought suppression, and avoidant stress responses). Further, emotion inhibition significantly predicted psychological distress, including depression and anxiety symptoms.)
Please use logic and facts, not the appeal to emotions and false assumptions.
Be honest and avoid “emotional abuse."
Be honest about simple facts!
I still suggest “Feminists are inherently illogical.”
Beth V.
I propose, "More women cause abuse and serious neglect of the most children!"
How can this be? Women cause the most child abuse?
Let us look at the facts from a scholarly study, "Women comprised a larger percentage of all perpetrators than men."
During 2006, an estimated 905,000 children were determined to be victims of abuse or neglect. Among the children confirmed as victims by CPS agencies in 2006:
Each State has its own definitions of child abuse and neglect based on minimum standards set by Federal law. Federal legislation provides a foundation for States by identifying a minimum set of acts or behaviors that define child abuse and neglect. The Federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act as amended by the Keeping Children and Families Safe Act of 2003, defines child abuse and neglect as:
1. Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation; or
2. An act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm.
Who abused and neglected children?
I quote the facts and data, “In 2006, nearly 80 percent (79.4%) of perpetrators of child maltreatment were parents, and another 6.7 percent were other relatives of the victim. Women comprised a larger percentage of all perpetrators than men, 57.9 percent compared to 42.1 percent.”
We as women need to use logic and facts, not the appeal to emotions and false assumptions.
We as women should be honest about simple facts!
I still suggest “Feminists are inherently illogical.”
Beth V.
* * * * *
References:
Dr. J. A. Gaudiosi, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Administration on Children, Youth and Families, 1250 Maryland Avenue, SW, 8th Floor, Washington, DC 20024.
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Administration on Children, Youth and Families. Child Maltreatment 2006 (Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, 2008).
Beth V.,
Re: abuse of children: “Women comprised a larger percentage of all perpetrators than men, 57.9 percent compared to 42.1 percent.” Wow, that’s only a 7.9% difference — I would have thought it would have been much greater.
What is the percentages regarding what gender more often is around the children? At home, daycares, schools, etc.? What is the percentage of waking time spent with a child by each parent? What is the percentage of time that a single parent is a male?
You should be honest about simple facts and tell the whole story!
It seems that most everyone is done reading your “logic” and “facts”. It’s time for me to join them. Best wishes.
Barb
Barb,
You ask quesitons, “What is the percentages regarding what gender more often is around the children? At home, daycares, schools, etc.? What is the percentage of waking time spent with a child by each parent? What is the percentage of time that a single parent is a male?”
I have read the thousands of pages of research and data.
Do you really want these numbers or will you call it “cherry picking” numbers, when you do not agree with the facts?
When did spending more time with a child, become a valid reason for a woman to abuse a child, which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation?
Beth V.
Beth;
I really don’t get your logic here. There is a common saying “there are lies, damn lies and statistics”, which simply means that if you look at the data wrong you can create incorrect conclusions.
I thought your premise was “feminism is illogical” but I still don’t know why. Historically ‘mankind’ has been very much male dominated. Thousands of years, hundreds of thousands (millions) of women who got beat-up simply because they were perceived as “the weaker sex”.
It would seem that the feminist movement really gained steam in the early ’70s – so has been around for about 40 years. It is hard for me to believe that in this time we, as a society, has totally reversed this thinking.
I believe there is still a lot of work to be done, but classifying the feminist movement as ‘illogical’ while using cherry-picked data and examples from the radical part of feminism would seem to indicate that you really can’t construct a logical argument. While some of your points are valid your conclusion does not appear to be.
If I have in any way miss-represented your logic or my logic is flawed, please let me know because I still don’t get it. You logic, as I understand it, seems to be based on sound-bytes from the fringe and a very narrow interpretation of select data.
I’d love to see a well crafted response to these points.
Regards,
Will
Will,
Feminism is complex.
Let us begin with what definition of feminism are you using?
There are detailed definitions of many of the varieties of feminism, including both academically-recognized sub-categories (e.g., Marxist and Socialist Feminism) as well as pop-culture feminist categories (e.g., “Amazon Feminism”)?
Do you understand the basic overview of feminist theory that focuses specificially on feminist literary theory, its changes over time, and its relationship to gender theory?
The struggle for “Feminist Purity” threatens the goals of “Feminism.” How would you define the tough issues of identity politics, separatism, and essentialism within the “feminist movement” and suggestions for how these can be overcome?
Feminism is complex. Define the members of the cultural elite, as you see them.
I agree, as a starting point, we have to be talking about the same definition and aspects of Feminism.
Beth V.
Beth;
You may be over-complicating this. I am using the ‘common’ definition (women who want the same rights as men). So I am not talking about outliers who are radicalized. I know they exist, but really don’t run into them at all, nor do I see their disproportionate influence on the movement as a whole.
Any quest for ‘purity’ is self-defeating as it looks to construct barriers + again they represent a very small minority.
Yes gender identity / equality is a very complicated issue (too complicated for Larry Summers…). But
I still don’t see how you frame the movement as illogical, that would seem to be based on an idea of ideological purity that you have constructed.
To clarify, I do understand and appreciate that there are large differences between males and females and that trying to make them “equal” can easily become counter-productive, but I also reflect on the inequality that woman have had throughout the vast majority of the history of the United States.
So why “inherently illogical”?
Good stuff,
Will
The quest for “equality” is perhaps the greatest example of the neurotic human chasm between what “we claim to want” and what “we really want.” It is like people who say they want to skydive, and they really believe it, but just until they take that first look out of the plane.
Sure, some people do it. But then again, how many people do you know that actually jump out of planes?
Even if we reduce it to the most practical and euphemistic of terms, very few people desire “equality” between the sexes. Indeed, very few people ever even consider what that would mean!
Do we want women subject to the draft and compulsory service in ground combat should a crisis emerge that requires such action? If your answer is no then you don’t want equality!
Women don’t even have to register for selective service. It is a boys only club and that is how most people want it!
Practical? Perhaps.
Equal? Not on your life.
And we don’t see N.O.W. or other women’s organizations clamoring at the halls of power to include women in such mandatory hardship. It’s telltale signs like that which distinguish between the pursuit of “equality” and the “pursuit of power.”
Which is where most people get confused.
That confusion is based on “antiquated feminist mythology.” We have a collective tendency to think that equality is only about access to wealth, independence and privilege. We think that parity is in the zeros on a paycheck or the letters behind a persons name.
That is only half of it. And it is, curiously, the only half we usually consider. That half-blind mentality has given us interesting concepts like “equal but special” and “feminism with chivalry.”
They are the oxymoron’s of the new age, and though we rarely say them aloud, we practice them as a matter of routine.
And the end of the day it’s all nonsense. We (and I do mean women and men) don’t want women in the socialized role of protectors. When something goes bump in the night, how many women are going to say to their husbands “Stay here, honey, I’ll go check it out?” How man men would let them?
We don’t want women in the role of social provider, either. I read a recent survey where 44% of women reported that they would be offended if expected to pay their way on dates. A much greater percentage said they didn’t or wouldn’t do it, but close to half found the idea so objectionable that they would take offense to it.
Equality, when its meaning is not distorted, is a cruel master. And since we don’t care too much for harsh reality in todays world, we just play a game of make believe with the word.
Women claim to embrace equality to pursue power, and men claim to embrace equality to pursue women.
But neither really mean it.
Beth V.
I am not talking for Beth V, she does a great job on her own and NO, aqain, I am not Beth V. Just because we are both logical and have both used the workd obfuscate does not make us the same person.
Beth V made the statement that she believes that most feminists are illogical. Let me remind you that every single response on here for a pro abortion stance was couched in emotional terms not logical ones. I am not demeaning emotions per se. I have a different take thasn
Beth V. Emotions are necessary and normal. Where you get into trouble is when you depend entirely upon emotions and avoid and abandon the use of facts and logic. WE are made up of mind body and spirit. In that body, we process emotions, facts and logic. Many people tend to process their world view entirely through the use of emotion and abandon facts and logic. We see this in the Democratic Party and The Republican Party.
What we need to do is keep all three things in balance. If you can visualize feelings, facts and logic as 3 separate entities like the 3 legs of a tripod, it will heop to understand. If you don’t have all 3 legs of the tripod in place and in balance, then the tripod simply falls over and fails.
Now of course there are all sorts of people claiming to be feminists on a continuum from utter whack job to a more reasoned and nuanced stance.
The problems arise because the more strident, aggressive and vocal advocates are the ones who get heard and all too often policy is made to conced to their demands based entirely in emotion.
For example, feminists filed a federal lawsuit against the City of Saint Paul Minnesota claiming that the physical test requirements were designed to exclude women. They were not, they were designed to exclude men who were not strong enough to throw a 200 lb unconcious man across their shoulder and run down a flight of stairs to save the man’s life, which is a part of what firefighters have to do as part of their job.
The Supreme Court found in favor of the feminists and now the fire department had to water down their physical reuqirements where TWO WOMEN CAN NOW DRAG A MAN DOWN THE STAIRS AND THEY STILL GET THE SAME PAY AS THE MALE WHO DOES IT BY HIMSELF. This was all emotion based and utterly lacking in logic. There is no equality there. Now you are endangering 3 people’s lives, requiring that men have to do more to take up the slack for the women who don’t have the physical strength to do the job. Arguing against Beth V, there are indeed women lobbying to be including in the combat services, just like the firefighters.
Men don’t mind equality (the vast majority of normal men) they just want equality themselves.
A reasoned argument should include a balanced view including facts, logic and emotion. Beth V and I both argue that far too many feminist argue entirely based upon emotion that does not hold up on its own when weighed in the balance of facts and logic.
For Barb to try and invalidate the argument instead of agreeing with points to continue in a mature discourse is not helpful. Are there men who are illogical, sexist, agressive and violent yes, does that invalidate the basic premise that there is reverse sexism in this country against men and they are victims as well, hell no.
I have already pointed out that in the family courts (also known as “The House of Pain” by lawyers representing men who are trying to get justice for men.
And Will, I agree that you can distort the use of statistics, but I don’t see Beth V doing that. She cites legitimate studies to illustrate that women are not entirely innocent as most feminists would portray.
I say again, for you to see reverse sexism is easy to see. You have tv as art imitating life where the “heroic”
swoops into save the day from the idiot man who has screwed things up all the while throwing out condascending and put down remarks to the man.
So Beth V has taken a stance similar to mine in that men are being discriminated in our society by women. For that we have been dismissed and diminished.
I stand my ground and it does not look like Beth V is going to back off either. I still think that she is a man, but she has declined my offer to quote her by name in my book. She has not thus far contacted me in any way.
I again make my offer to anyone who would like a publishing credit to email me at marriagecoach 1 at yahoo dot com.
I am looking for reasoned logical arguments about how men are being abused in our society and that reverse sexism is rampant in this country where it is the men who are now being victimized.
Hey Will:
You did not address your questions to me, but to Beth V. I would like to weigh in however. There is no denying that women have had to suffer discrimination and lack of fundamental rights in the past in this country.
However those inequities have long since been resolved. The problem is that now we are being sexist in reverse in giving women more than their fair share.
The fundamental lack of logic is that the claims of self described feminists are largely based in feelings utterly lacking in logic. When logical arguments are presented to them the person is attacked and put down instead of dealing with the arguments on their face. This post has had tons of examples to illustrate that point.
Beth V can do her own job of answering your post. but I must concur with the bulk of her posts and arguments.
John;
I don’t know how you can support the statement “those inequities have long since been resolved”.
Would it be valid to also say “race relations are solved”?
PLEASE explain to me why you continue saying
feminists are illogical.
Thanks
Will
you rock! i wish more women had the balls to not only write about miscarriages and the like, but also to deal with all the backlash. stay strong!
In a recent legal column “Supreme Court and Women” they defend maligned Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor and calls for more women on the Court.
“Abortion is gender’s judicial flashpoint. If men got pregnant, reproductive choice would be in the Bill of Rights – if not a sacrament. Yet, we were are a vote or two shy of limiting or denying that choice. Women will see that threat as no man possibly can.”
A view may be correct that Sotomayor will help broaden the Court’s perspective and make it more solicitous of women’s concerns. Some hold the view that society would be more solicitous of men’s reproductive rights than women’s is common in the pro-choice movement!
However, if men could get pregnant, would abortion really be legal?
Based on the relevant family law rulings and related legislation, the answer is probably “no.”
Though abortion is controversial, few believe that women should be compelled to bear and be responsible for children who were conceived as a result of a criminal act, such as a sexual assault. Yet numerous courts have ruled that boys must be held responsible for the children they involuntarily fathered in their early teens as a result of a criminal act–statutory rape by an adult woman.
For example, in 2004 a Michigan appeals court ruled that a man who had conceived a child with an adult when he was 14 must pay her child support. Though the court acknowledged that the sex act which produced the child would have been a crime under state law, they decided that the case should be resolved “without regard to the fault of either of the parents.”
The "man" was 14! The "woman" was the adult and committed the sex crime of statutory rape!
Equality?
Practical? Perhaps.
Equal? Not on your life.
Most people "sympathize" with women who have decided to terminate their pregnancies because they conceived as a result of being "deceived" into believing that their partners had vasectomies or were sterile. By contrast, courts have consistently failed to extend any consideration to men who have been deceived!
For example, in 2005 an Illinois appellate court decided a case in which a Chicago physician alleged that his ex-girlfriend had secretly kept his semen after the two had oral sex, and then impregnated herself with it. The court stated that if the doctor’s story is true, his ex-girlfriend “deceitfully engaged in sexual acts which no reasonable person would expect could result in pregnancy.”
Yet it hung the "responsibility for the child" on the doctor anyway, employing the pretzel logic that “when plaintiff ‘delivered’ his sperm, it was a gift…There was no agreement that the original deposit would be returned upon request.”
Fetal protection laws also demonstrate courts’ and lawmakers’ concern for women’s reproductive rights and disregard for men’s; if "mom" doesn’t want to be a parent, the unborn child is a "meaningless" fetus, yet if it is dad who doesn’t want to be a parent, the fetus is considered a "living" human being. This double-standard was highlighted in 2005 in a case involving a Texas high school couple.
Erica Basoria testified that when she was four months into her twin pregnancy she regretted not getting an abortion, and asked Gerardo Flores, her boyfriend, to help her terminate it. Basoria then punched herself in the stomach while Flores stepped on her stomach, inducing a miscarriage.
Though both Flores and Basoria had committed "exactly the same act" for exactly the same reasons, Flores is now serving life in prison for "murder." Basoria, who stood by Flores and cried when he was sentenced, could not be prosecuted because of her "legal right to an abortion."
A million and a half American women "legally walk away from motherhood every year" by abortion, adoption, or abandonment. In more than 40 states, a mother can terminate all parental responsibility by returning the baby to the hospital within a few days or weeks of birth. Similarly, women can give their babies up for adoption, generally with few legal complications.
By contrast, courts and laws refuse to recognize reproductive prerogatives for men, "forbidding them to avoid responsibility for a pregnancy" in even the “most extreme” circumstances!
Equality, when its meaning is not distorted, is a cruel master. And since we don’t care too much for harsh reality in todays world, we just play a game of make believe with the word.
Practical? Perhaps.
Equal? Not on your life.
Let me continue to propose, "Feminists Are Cons."
The “feminist movement” as we have come to know it in recent decades is fundamentally a “con.”
I propose “women” are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men. I only make these statements using valid data and facts!
My views as a “woman” are “simple fact” not merely “wishing the facts” were something different!
In response to "women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive than men, " someone on the blog makes the statement, "But it didn’t make sense to me, so I pushed further and found that ‘aggressiveness’ for most of these studies is far more broadly defined than most would commonly agree but what is really important here is to understand that while woman may be physical with men, men are much stronger and their abuse leads to a much higher incidence of hospitalization and death."
I listed the 256 scholarly investigations: 201 empirical studies and 55 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that "women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men" in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 253,500.
The facts reveal from the scholarly study states, "women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners."
Unless someone "reads and reviews these 256 references" and then “disputes” these peer reviewed facts, with the "clear scholarly research" unbiased of 200+ studies, I tend to suggest again – it may be "wishing the facts" were something different! Provide the references.
"Feminists" can only get away with claiming that “domestic violence” equals “men beating up women” because people are "unaware" of the "massive documentation" of female-instigated domestic violence!
I ask the question "If men got pregnant, would they have abortion rights?"
There’s little reason to think so.
Respect goes beyond difficult conversations, of course. Being helpful and considerate toward everyone in our everyday actions helps all of us! We establish a foundation for those times when we might disagree.
"Agree to disagree," is the expression generally thought to be of American origin and to be a variant of the earlier ‘agree to differ’. That latter phrase is first cited in the Selected Letters of the master potter Josiah Wedgwood in 1785. He states: “The principal difficulty is to agree to differ, to agree in impartial investigation and candid argument.”
Respectively,
Beth V.
Beth;
You have proven that you are well read, but I still don’t get your logic.
Yes, you can point to any number of horrible judicial verdicts that were biased toward woman. I understand that. Sometimes the courts treat a woman’s perspective greater than a man’s.
Yes, there are some feminists that believe that they should be more equal than men.
Yes, the study of female aggression in DV should be expanded.
Yes, there are pre-conceptions of gender that are wrong.
I get all that – yes there are bad apples in any bunch, and sometimes they can get a lot of attention, but do they dominate the movement? Not from my experience nor do I believe that the majority of the movement would support these incidents.
So while many of your points appear valid, your overall conclusion seems to be based more on the ‘fema-nazi’ character, which, to me, does not define the movement (nor invalidate it).
So where is my logic amiss or flawed?
Regards,
Will
Can A Woman Be "The Family Terrorist?"
As a woman, there seems to be a blanket of silence over the huge figures of violence expressed by women! There is something pathological about the terrorist’s motivation, for it is based not so much on reality as on a twisting, a distortion, a reshaping of reality.
That said, in a recent video and column on ‘The Family Terrorist’ (or, ‘If Momma Ain’t Happy’) and takes a look at some “ugly truths about behaviors of women” within their families; behaviors that are “appallingly” common, generally excused and even “laughed away” by society.
One excellent quote from the article by Erin Pizzey concerning mothers who emotionally terrorize their families is, "Through the subtle creation of perpetual turmoil this terrorist may drive other family members to alcoholism to drug addiction, to explosive behavior, to suicide. The other family members therefore are often misperceived as the family problem, and the hidden terrorist seen as the “saintly woman” who puts up with it."
We are confronted daily by the difficult task of women in problematical families. In my review of family violence, I have come to recognize that there are women involved in emotionally and/or physically violent relationships who express and enact disturbance beyond the expected (and acceptable) scope of distress.
Such individuals, spurred on by deep feelings of vengefulness, vindictiveness, and animosity, behave in a manner that is singularly destructive; destructive to themselves as well as to some or all of the other family members, making an already bad family situation worse.
These women I have found it useful to describe as “family terrorists.”
I understand, men also are capable of behaving as family terrorists. We have had thousands of international studies about male violence but there is “very little” about “why or how women” are violent! There seems to be a blanket of silence over the huge figures of violence expressed by women!
Because family terrorism is a tactic largely used by “women” in domestic violence field. The potential for family terrorism may rest dormant for many years, emerging in its full might only under certain circumstances. I found that in many cases it is the dissolution, or threatened dissolution, of the family that calls to the fore the terrorist’s destructiveness. It is essential to understand that prior to dissolution, the potential terrorist plays a role in the family that is by no means passive. The terrorist is the family member whose moods reign supreme in the family, whose whims and actions determine the emotional climate of the household. In this setting, the terrorist could be described as the family tyrant, for within the family, this individual maintains the control and power over the other members’ emotions.
The family of the “emotional terrorist” well may be characterized as dysfunctional, and unhappy, but it is the terrorist or tyrant who is primarily responsible for initiating conflict, imposing histrionic outbursts upon otherwise calm situations, or (more subtly and invisibly) quietly manipulating other family members into uproar through guilt, cunning taunts, and barely perceptive provocations. (The quiet manipulative terrorist usually is the most undetected terrorist. Through the subtle creation of perpetual turmoil, this terrorist may virtually drive other family members to alcoholism, to drug-addiction, to explosive behavior, to suicide. The other family members, therefore, are often misperceived as the ‘family problem’ and the hidden terrorist as the saintly woman who “puts up with it all.”)
While the family remains together, however miserable that “togetherness” might be, the terrorist maintains her power. However, it is often the separation of the family that promises to rend the terrorist’s domain and consequently to lessen her power. Family dissolution, therefore, often is the time when the terrorist feels most threatened and most alone, and, because of that, most dangerous.
In this position of fear, the family terrorist sets out to achieve a specific goal. There are many possible goals for the terrorist, including: reuniting the family once again, or ensuring that the children (if there are children in the relationship) remain under the terrorist’s control, or actively destroying the terrorist’s spouse (or ex-spouse) emotionally, physically, and financially.
To take an extreme parable, when it was evident to Adolph Hitler that winning the War was an absolute impossibility, he ordered his remaining troops to destroy Berlin: If he no longer could rule, then he felt it best for his empire to share in his own personal destruction. Similarly, the family terrorist, losing or having lost supremacy, may endeavor to bring about the ruin (and, in some extreme cases, the death) of other family members.
The family terrorist, like the political terrorist, is motivated by the pursuit of a goal. In attempting to “disarm” the family terrorist, it is to try and recognize and understand the terrorist’s goal.
The source of the terrorist’s goal as in the case of the political terrorist, usually can be understood to spring from some “legitimate” grievance. The grievance’s legitimacy may be regarded in terms of justified feeling of outrage in response to an actual injustice or injury, or the legitimacy may exist solely in the mind of the terrorist. Whether this legitimacy be real or imagined, the grievance starts as the impetus for the terrorist’s motivation. One hallmark of an emotional terrorist is that this motivation tends to be obsessional by nature.
Whence this obsession? Why this overwhelmingly powerful drive? In many cases, that which the terrorist believes to be the grievance against the spouse actually has very little to do with the spouse. Although the terrorist may be consciously aware only of the spouse’s alleged offense, the pain of this offense (real or imagined) is invariably an echo of the past, a mirrored recreation of some painful situation in the terrorist’s childhood.
I will not describe here in any detail the types of childhood that tend to create the subsequent terrorist. I will say, however, that invariably the terrorist’s childhood, once understood, can be seen as violent (emotionally and/or physically). Also invariably, the terrorist can be regarded as a “violence prone” individual. I define a violence prone woman as a woman who, while complaining that she is the innocent victim of the malice and aggression of all other relationships in her life, is in fact a victim of her own violence and aggression. A violent and painful childhood tends to create in the child an addiction to violence and to pain (an addiction on all levels: the emotional, the physical, the intellectual, the neurochemical), an addiction that then compels the individual to recreate situations and relationships characterized by further violence, further danger, further suffering, further pain. Thus, it is primarily the residual pain from childhood – and only secondarily the pain of the terrorist’s current familial situation – that serves as the terrorist’s motivating impetus. There is something pathological about the terrorist’s motivation, for it is based not so much on reality as on a twisting, a distortion, a reshaping of reality.
Because the emotional terrorist is a violence-prone individual, addicted to violence, the terrorist’s actions must be understood as the actions of an addict. When the family was together, the terrorist found fulfillment for any number of unhealthy appetites and addictions. When that family then dissolves, the terrorist behaves with all the desperation, all the obsession, all the single-minded determination of any addict facing or suffering withdrawal.
The single-mindedness, the one-sidedness of feeling, is perhaps the most important shibboleth of the emotional terrorist. Furthermore, the extent of this one-sidedness is, perhaps the greatest measure and indicator of how extreme the terrorist’s actions are capable of becoming.
Any person suffering an unhappy family situation, or the dissolution of a marriage or relationship, will feel some pain and desperation. A relatively well-balanced person, however, will be not only aware of their own distress but also sensitive, in some degree, to the suffering of the other family members. For example, reasonably well-balanced parents, when facing divorce, will be most concerned with their children’s emotional well-being, even beyond their own grief. Not so the emotional terrorist.
To the family terrorist, there is only one wronged, one sufferer, only one person in pain, and this person is the terrorist herself. The terrorist has no empathy and feels only her own pain. In this manner, the terrorist’s capacity for feeling is narcissistic, solipsistic, and in fact pathological.
Again, I will not attempt here to detail the factors in childhood that lead to the creation of an emotional terrorist. What is evident, however, in the terrorist’s limited or nonexistent ability to recognize other people’s feelings, is that the terrorist’s emotions and awareness, at crucial stages of childhood development, were stunted from reaching beyond the boundaries of self, due to a multiplicity of reasons. Later, the adult terrorist went on to make a relationship that was, on some level, no true relationship, but a reenactment of childhood pains, scenarios, situations, and “scripts.” Throughout the relationship, the solipsistic terrorist did not behave genuinely in response to the emotions of other family members but self-servingly used them as props for the recreation of the terrorist’s programme. And when that relationship finally faces dissolution, the terrorist is aware only of her own pain and outrage and, feeling no empathy for other family members, will proceed single-mindedly in pursuit of her goal, whether that goal is reunion, ruin, or revenge. The terrorist’s perspective is tempered by little or no objectivity. Instead the terrorist lives in a self-contained world of purely subjective pain and anger.
Because conscience consists so largely of the awareness of other people’s feelings as well as of one’s own, the emotional terrorist’s behavior often can be described to be virtually without conscience. In this lack of conscience lies the dangerous potential of the true terrorist, and again the degree of conscience in evidence is a useful measure to anticipate the terrorist’s destructiveness.
An additional factor, making the terrorist so dangerous, is the fact that the terrorist, while in positively monomaniacal pursuit of her goal, feels fueled by a sense of omnipotence. Perhaps it is true that one imagines oneself omnipotent when, in truth, one is in a position of impotence (as in the case of losing one’s familial control through dissolution). Whatever the source of the sensation of omnipotence, the terrorist believes herself to be unstoppable, and unbound by the constraints or conscience or empathy, believes that no cost (cost, either to the terrorist or to other family members) is too great to pay toward the achievement of the goal.
The terrorist, and the terrorist’s actions, know no bounds. (The estimation of the extent of the terrorist’s “boundlessness” presents the greatest challenge to my work). Intent only to achieve the goal (perhaps “hell-bent” is the most accurate descriptive phrase) the terrorist will take such measures as: stalking a spouse or ex-spouse, physically assaulting the spouse or the spouse’s new partners, telephoning all mutual friends and business associates of the spouse in an effort to ruin the spouse’s reputation, pressing fabricated criminal charges against the spouse (including alleged battery and child molestation), staging intentionally unsuccessful suicide attempts for the purpose of manipulation, snatching children from the spouse’s care and custody, vandalizing the spouse’s property, murdering the spouse and/or the children as an act of revenge.
Yes, both men and women are equally guilty of the above behavior, but on the whole, because it is men’s dysfunctional behavior that is studied and reported upon, people do not realize that to the same extent women are equally guilty of this type of violent behavior. My working definition, then, of a “family terrorist” or an “emotional terrorist” is: a woman who, pathologically motivated (by unresolved tendencies from a problematical childhood), and pathologically insensitive to the feelings of other family members, obsessionally seeks through unbounded action to achieve a destructive (and, therefore, pathological) goal with regard to other family members.
Of course, this defining profile pertains to individuals in differing degrees. Many people, unhappy within a relationship or made unhappy by the dissolution of a relationship, may lapse into periods of “irrational” behavior. What characterizes the terrorist, however, is that the vindictive and destructive behaviors are consistent; the moments of calm and periods of lucidity are the lapses, temporary lulls in the storm.
There are also women who, suffering chagrin and misery during or after the life spans of a relationship, appear far more self-destructive than destructive to anyone else. For the other partner, contemplating leaving this kind of individual, the very thought of leaving such a person is made difficult and untenable. To be sure, many women exist, extremely dependent within their relationships, who, probably having suffered severe emotional betrayal during their childhood, genuinely feel that their life outside a relationship would be so lonely as to be unbearable.
It is difficult to leave such a woman, and the man attempting to leave may well feel that, by leaving, he would be responsible for delivering a mortal blow to an already pathetic wretch. Men also, are often kept in their relationships, which can only be likened to “personal concentration camps,” by the fact that they feel a genuine feeling of “chivalry” towards their partner. Women tend to put so much more of themselves into their relationships and therefore suffer when these relationships fall apart.
There is a valid question as to whether or not this sort of suicidally-inclined individual may be deemed a terrorist. (To many minds, this kind of individual, no doubt, would seem to fall more within the category of “emotional black-mailer.” ) I believe that, sadly, there are people, deeply damaged by their childhood, who genuinely cannot face life by themselves.
In some individuals, the authentic (though unhealthy) longing for death is a longing planted within them since early childhood, and there is very little a partner can do to alter the apparently inevitable course of that longing.
In men struggling either in relationships or with the dissolution of a relationship, They are faced with many questions, all relevant to gauging the woman’s terrorist potential:
Will the woman persevere in her efforts to financially ruin her partner?
Is she sincere when she promises to kill her partner, or have him killed, should he ever become involved in a new relationship?
Are the threats of suicide genuine or manipulative?
Will she carry out the promises of using the law to “kidnap” the children in order to hurt the ex-partner?
Will she brain-wash the children to such an extent that her ex-partner dare not form a new relationship?
In situations of emotional and family terrorism, there are two areas of focus: practical measures of protection (“strategies for survival”) on the part of family members, and therapeutic work with the terrorist himself or herself. I must reiterate at this stage, that both men and women are capable of terrorist tactics. Women, as I have shown, use far more subtle tactics, i.e., that of the terrorist as opposed to outright war.
The first step, on the part of other family members, toward limiting the terrorist’s destructive potential is to understand the terrorist to be a terrorist. In a recent example, a Mr. Roberts described how, during his marriage, he and his children faced a daily onslaught of verbal abuse from his wife. Mrs. Roberts was also physically violent to the children. Now that he has asked for a divorce, she is making use of every weapon in her arsenal. In the children’s presence, she has used drugs and drunk alcohol to the point of extreme intoxication. She has staged several unsuccessful suicide attempts in front of the children, threatened over the telephone to “do something stupid,” promised to kill Mr. Roberts new partner, and assured Mr. Roberts that when she has finished with him he will not have a penny to his name. To Mr. Roberts, all of this behavior seemed perfectly usual.
After all, he had witnessed this sort of commotion for thirteen years of their marriage. When it was suggested to him, “What you endured is emotional terrorism,” he suddenly and for the first time was able to see his situation clearly. Now, he realized, his wife’s behavior was neither appropriate nor acceptable. No, this was not the treatment that every man should expect from his wife, either in or out of marriage. No, he does not want his children to be subjected to such extreme behavior any longer.
The fact of recognizing a terrorist is the essential first step. Then, because a terrorist is fueled by a feeling of omnipotence and is prepared to behave without bounds, usually encouraged by feminist therapists who insist that their clients suffer from “low self esteem,” pragmatic measures must be taken to define clearly the boundaries of acceptable behavior.
Unfortunately the legal situation which many divorce agreements mandate is open-ended. Certainly, when both parties to a divorce are reasonably well-balanced, it is entirely fitting for the settlement to be flexible enough to incorporate changing financial circumstances, child-care capabilities, and visitation rights. When, however, one party to the divorce is an emotional terrorist, then both the confrontational divorce procedure and the resultant open-ended divorce settlement provide infinite opportunity for the courts, lawyers, and the entire battery of psychologists called in for evaluations, to be used as the terrorist’s weapons. In these cases, the court and the divorce procedure provide no boundaries for the terrorist; instead they allow the terrorist to continue to behave boundlessly.
For this reason, when dealing with a terrorist, it is best for the divorce procedure and final decree to be as swift, as final, as absolute, as unequivocal as possible. Every practitioner or attorney handling divorces is familiar with clients described as “litigious.” [ “Tar baby” is a popular term among Colorado lawyers.] Only when “litigiousness” is seen as a manifestation of terrorism can the course to swift and precise legal settlement be steered.
To limit the terrorist’s feelings of omnipotence, there are many effective measures. The guiding principle, as in the handling of political terrorists, must be: “There is no negotiating with terrorists.” Endless telephone calls, conversations, confrontation, trial “get-back-togethers,” correspondence, visitations, gestures of appeasement, and efforts to placate the terrorist’s demands, all serve to reinforce the terrorist’s belief that she is accomplishing something. Only determined resolution in the face of terrorism shows the terrorist that her power is limited.
Furthermore, for anyone dealing directly with the terrorist, reassurances, “ego boosts,” and consolations are lamentably counterproductive. Mrs. Roberts soon found for herself a feminist therapist staunchly supporting the erroneous belief “All feelings (and therefore behaviors) are valid.” Mrs. Roberts is told by this therapist that she has a right to feel and to behave in any manner she chooses, in callous disregard for the devastation inflicted upon the children. Such reassurances serve only to fortify the terrorist’s already pathological, solipsistic, and eternally self-justifying perspective.
If wishing to undertake the second sphere of disarming a terrorist – personal intervention with the terrorist herself – one must be prepared to be straight, honest and very direct. In dealings with women as terrorists, it is shown on occasion that one quite simply can point out to the terrorist, “You are behaving like a terrorist. This is what you are doing. This is how you are being destructive. This is the destruction you are heading towards,” and the terrorist, seeing themselves clearly for the first time, might be encouraged to reconsider their behavior. More commonly, however, extremely deep therapy is required. For the terrorist’s behavior to change, there must first be a solid and fundamental change within the terrorist’s physiological constitution.
Usually it is only by an in-depth excavation and resolution of early childhood pain that the terrorist can begin to gain a real, true, and level-headed perception of her own current situation. Direct intervention with a terrorist – like all forms of therapeutic intervention – can hope to achieve change only if the individual concerned wishes to change and possesses that vital yet ineffable quality: the will to health. When the will to health is lacking, there can be no change. If the terrorist cannot or will not change, one can only help the other family members to be resolute, be strong, and, whenever possible, be distant.
When feminists like Robin Morgan (editor of MS magazine and contributor to The Guardian) make statements like, “I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.”
We may better understand the counter-culture and activitist thoughts about "Can a Woman be the Family Terrorist."
In the study "Husband Abuse: Equality with a Vengeance?" Joanne C. Minaker, and Laureen Snider in the Journal of Criminology and Criminal Justice – September 2006, the original problem of “wife abuse,” which feminists constituted in the 1970s, has morphed into “domestic violence” and then into “husband abuse.”
They present a case study of the newly discovered problem of “husband abuse,” which they argue exemplifies the complexities of neo-liberalism, neo-conservatism, and feminist engagement with the criminal-justice state.
They argue that the myth that men are battered as often as women, an argument that challenges decades of feminist research, theory, and activism, is constitutive of a backlash against women’s safety and feminist “victories.”
They caution that such claims must be read as more than anti-feminist backlash but are increasingly becoming the new “common sense,” the dominant lens used by policy makers, media, and influential interest groups. They demonstrate how the very successes of feminism, combined with neo-liberal governance, the burgeoning power of men’s movements, and new communication media, have given rise to new subjects, mentalities, and practices.
As the claim that male and female partners are equally prone to violence resonates with discourses of equality and reinforces constituencies promoting criminal-justice “solutions” to all social problems, the result is "equality" with a vengeance!
There seems to be a blanket of silence over the huge figures of violence expressed by women! There is something pathological about the terrorist’s motivation, for it is based not so much on reality as on a twisting, a distortion, a reshaping of reality.
Respectively,
Beth V.
Come on Will are you just trying to play dumb. Between
Beth V and me, we continue to write in facts and logic and illustrate why feminists on here write in feelings.
I gave the example of the Saint Paul Fire department having to allow women in because of their illogical asssesment that the physical requirements were designed to keep them out instead of what the job requires. They were ultimately allowed in and got paid the same as the male fire fighters who could do far more.
if you bother to read any feminists posts on here stating their right to abortion, I defy you to find a logical statement. They are all feelings and emotionally based.
The inequalities for blacks have also been long resolved. Does that mean racism is totally eradicated, no, does it mean that that sexist men don’t still exist, of course there are. You equate not having perfection in our society with continuing to give preferential treatment to women and blacks. The logic is that we have surpassed equal rights and have gone to preferential treatment to blacks and women. What gets me is that you and most of the women on here seem to agree with that.
John – I never claimed to be dumb, nor am I ‘brainwashed’. I am trying to understand how you came to your conclusion. You seem to like the word ‘facts’ and ‘logic’ but the conclusions you draw do not seem to be in synch with my own. So I am trying to understand
if there is data that I have not seen or logic that I do not understand. I wasn’t aware of Fieberg’s study until this blog, but his conclusions do not gibe with the historical record and I find that fascinating. That said, our judicial system is flaky at best. There are seldom black and white answers and sometimes the wrong conclusions are drawn – that’s part of life, if you can point me to a legal system that does not have similar problems, then please do (because I would find that fascinating too).
So are there bad parts of feminism? Yes there are. There are bad parts of every group, but to then classify the whole movement as a “con” is quite a radical statement. Since it is a radical statement that is not in synch with my own ideas, it requires further study, to try to dig into the facts, opinions and biases.
Do we live in a perfect society? No
Is our court system anything close to perfect? No
Are there evil feminists? Yes
Are women as aggressive as men? Maybe
So, I am not dumb, but how do these ‘facts’ add up to the feminist movement being a “con”? I’m still waiting for a rational, linear argument for your statement. Yes I am pushing you to clearly make your point with supporting facts.
So please do so.
Will
Beth;
Your use of the word ‘terrorist’ is interesting. It is interesting because it is less descriptive than divisive.
I may be re-stating the obvious, but I think everyone gets it that women can be as ‘evil’ as men. Yes, they have the capacity and given the intent, they will be.
So how does this come back to feminism as a whole?
Please, please explain.
Regards,
Will
Regarding Feibert, the interesting question is “if women are more aggressive then men, then how do you explain the historical record that clearly presents men as more dominating and prone to violence than women”? Historically, is this even up to debate, by anyone?
The other interesting question is “how do you normalize the results of 256 studies representing over 300,000 people”? (I think the answers my ‘math major’ friends would give is ‘you don’t’)
Hey Will:
Just because you did not have the same experience in no way negates facts. I will give you more facts. I started out with a horribly and brutally abusive father. Men bad right. Well I had an alchoholic mother who supported the brutal beatings becasue me and my brothers were getting “punished” and he did not beat her.
I had an abusive wife who threw things, screamed profanities and also hit me. One time when we were coming home from me being stitched up because I had my thumb partially amputated by a belt sander. She started a fight, while she was driving me home. She then started to back hand me in the face. I was out of it from the pain and the pain killers. I threw my hands up to protect my face and she hit the stitched up thumb ripping open the stitches. This woman screamed at her own kids calling them names etc. She once broke her own thumb repeatedly slamming the front door harder and harder. Terrorist, you betcha. I could go on an on about the 18 years experience.
She then committed what is called PARENTAL ALIENATION SYNDROME. It is another form of abuse. Look it up on the internet to see for yourself. Of course the courts do nothing about it. There is no equality for the man in these cases. They are deprived of their right to have visitation without any form of judicial intervention.
I had another wife who kicked me in the shins with cowboy boots and left me bleeding.
People don’t want to pay credence to women’s violence because after all if it is against a man, then he is not a “man” if he complains.
Feminists did at one time have legitimate complaints due to lack of equality. We have resolved those complaints with legislation. The problem that we have with both blacks and women is that we are now giving them unequally preferential treatment.
In scientific studies, the larger the sample size, the more credible the study and the results.
Beth V did a vastly superior explantion than me about the superior and preferential treatment shown to women that does not in any way treat men equally.
Again I say Penelope herself backs the fact that women have it better than men in jobs and pay. You seem to want ignore her statements.
In spite of all of this, you seem to think that women are still downtrodden and deserving of more preferential treatment. Instead of challenging me and Beth V, I challenge you to show facts as to why we are wrong and that women deserve to continue to get preferential treatment. Show examples of how women today are downtrodden by us evil men, (whoops Beth V is not a man)
I am now convinced that she is a lawyer based upon her legal research. Show us why women should get preferential get preferential treatment. With all due respect.
John;
Again, you fail to answer my basic question or propose a framework for your conclusion. My logic would be
– women have been mistreated and dominated by men for the bulk of the time we have been ‘civilized’.
– the women’s movement in the 70s tried to get laws changed that were clearly discriminatory towards women.
– the ‘legislative’ solution, as is often the case, is imperfect
– to this day women are still victimized as the ‘halo’ of 1000s of years takes a long time to go away
– because of this, the feminist movement still has merit
Now a critique:
I NEVER said that women should be treated ‘more equal than men’ nor have I implied it in any of my writings.
I understand that is not the solution and to paint me as supporting that point would seem to indicate either a gross misunderstanding of my posts, or an obvious attempt to bypass answering my questions (because you don’t have a good answer)
RE: studies, John, stay out of this, it is clearly not your area. Your statement about sample-size would be marked as wrong by most basic math teachers because sample size doesn’t matter if your analysis is wrong. FURTHERMORE, the ‘study’ was not really a ‘study’ at all because he performed no primary research. He simply took 256 studies and tried to make their results ‘the same’ so he could draw a conclusion. The mere idea that you could normalize these studies shows, again, a lack of math knowledge.
Furthermore, if you are going to make these types of ‘radical’ statements then you have to be able to back them up with facts or you appear to be simply another right-wing ‘christian’ who parrots select quotes from the bible.
So I have asked, very politely, several times for you and Beth to frame your statements in a logical argument and you have not.
The Fieberg study was interesting, but the statement that “woman may be more physically aggressive than men”
does not invalidate the feminist movement.
So I give up. I have asked and asked and only been met by ‘quasi-logic’ and miss-statements about my beliefs. May I suggest that you re-think some of your basic ideals as they come across as narrow-minded and not particularly well thought out.
Of course, I am not expecting a response to this because I have now come to the conclusion that you don’t have an answer for ‘my’ questions.
Finally, I am sorry that you feel that US society is screwed-up as much as you appear to think it is. I believe our country is in a state of change, and while in that change there will be ‘bumps’ but to make divisive and misleading statements isn’t a way to close the gap between us.
“Feminism Entitlement”
One of the paradoxes of feminism is that many feminists do actually recognise (suitably framed as PHMT, or Patriarchy Hurts Men Too) the derision, suppression and denial of men's needs as a societal gender-norm, but only in the abstract.
When men start expressing their actual needs, those very same “feminists” are often the first to deride, supress, and deny!
Sounds like “Feminism Entitlement”
Respectfully,
Beth V.
I’m glad we’re talking about miscarriage. But here’s my main message: this happens to over two million U.S. women every year, and many are due to treatable causes that were never diagnosed.
I lost four children- my last being twins at 20 weeks gestation- before I was diagnosed with two treatable conditions. I was only diagnosed after doing my own research and insisting on a range of tests. So here’s the deal- if women don’t push like hell for testing after loss, they may not get it. Treatable conditions go undiagnosed. More losses happen- losses that could have been prevented.
We have to talk about this- otherwise change doesn’t occur. Also, many women find this an emotionally devastating event. Talk is part of the recovery.
I didn’t tweet. I wrote a book to share my experience. And by sharing what I learned, other women have been able to protect their pregnancies. http://www.tofullterm.com/
I wish peace and support to anyone struggling with miscarriage.
It’s a tweet not a twitter. Twitter is the platform, tweet is what you do.
I really like this post. You’re so right… women need to talk about the reality of life in the workplace, and sometimes it isn’t so pretty.
My university President once told me that for women to be successful, we don’t need to act like men, we need to adjust the status quo so that it isn’t so skewed toward men! And I think that you’ve done so much in that respect by pointing out that yes, you’ve got an awesome career, but you’ve also got ovaries! And that it isn’t a problem!
Anyway, you rock, I love this, and the 24 hour waiting period is the WORST thing in the entire world – I actually sat on a committee to review it in my state, and the defense is that it “protects the patient/client” – protects them from their RIGHT to make decisions about their health?! I guess so.
Thank you so much for your honesty and candor. I have read your blog from time to time, but never regularly. Today I added your feed to my Google Reader.
Will:
I don’t understand you and not for lack of trying. You did not answer my question. In what way are women being dismcriminated against today that legislation is still not covering? The fact that women have been discriminated in the past has no bearing on the plight of women today. Penelope herself says on this blog that there are a lot of women making more money than men in today’s business world.
I have given you many factual statements that you seem to have selective vision over. I have documented in many ways how women have it better than equal today and in spite of that, they continue to want more than equal. I have stated that the arguments made by women on here have been feeling and emotioanl statements rather than factual statements
I will readily admit that statistics and sample size etc is not my area of expertise.
I would like to know what “radical statements” that you think that I have made? It helps to define what you mean as radical. I am very conservative, but I know that many liberals view conservatives as radical and often the reverse is true.
I never stated that you believed that women should get more than equal, but it would be no stretch at all to infer that you believed that based upon your statements.
I believe in eqaulity, that is certainly not a radical statement. I don’t believe in inequality or more than equal based upon past discrimination either. This is also not a radical statement. For example, equal rights I define as the right to apply for a job based strictly upon your qualifications and should be gender neutral. The example of the fire department is an obvious case. Women sued the fire department because they could not pass the physical requirements. Women have shouted for years about equal work for equal pay for I which I also agree with. Geez I really am radical. The problem is, that the women once they were on the job at the fire department still could not handle the physical requirements of the job such as throwing a 200 lb man over their shoulder and running down a flight of stairs. They had to make accdomodations so that two women could drag that man down the stairs. In spite of the fact that it took two women to do the work of one man, they still got the same pay even though they coulde not do the work. I am against that and make no apology for it. If that is your definition of radical, then I am guilty. It is certainly not equal pay for equal work. The woman has the right to apply for the job, she does not have the right to demand the job if she can’t fill the job requirements.
I gave you personal experience where I had two different wives hit me instead of me hitting them.
Again I say make your case as to how women are still being discriminated against because of lack of legislation protecting their rights. One final example of more than equal is in government contracts. There is a built in bias by legislation to give government contracts or SBA Loans on a preferential treatment to women or women owned businesses.
Women don’t even protect each other. Carrie Prejean was discriminated because of her personal and religious beliefs about marriage. She got the equivalent of a publicf gang rape and yet the feminists were no where to be found or heard.
I became interested in “feminism” through my reading of sociology, and reflections on experiences I had had with people of the opposite sex.
As I developed an interest in postmodernism I came to see forms of classification as tools that were often used to sustain social relationships and impose identities; although often people freely use the available classifications to gender themselves and others.
At a personal level, rather than empowering me, I found patriarchy to be an arbitrary set of ideas, classificatory tools and practice that were completely irrelevant to how I wanted to lead my life. The ironic thing was that although, at an intellectual level it was clear to me that patriarchy had “no substance” or foundations, in terms of everyday life patriarchy was constraining. Something which, in essence, did not exist but yet had an effect. As Naomi Wolf makes clear:
.. there is no rock called gender.. it can change so that real mutuality – an equal gaze, equal vulnerability, equal desire – brings heterosexual men and women together. (Wolf 1990 page 152)
This would allow: an opportunity for a straight women actively to pursue, grasp, savour, and consume the male body for her satisfaction, as much she is pursued, grasped, savoured, and consumed for his. (Wolf 1990 page 158)
In Wolfs opinion, “patriarchy” operates at the level of the gaze, if you are seen to break its rules, then you will be stared at in a disapproving fashion. Both men and women are made to feel vulnerable to judgment. And what of the people who stare?
They are merely exercising their judgment without foundation or obligation to disapprove. I have come to the conclusion that the only people whom a vested interest in “theorising patriarchy” are academic feminists, who need the concept to “further” their careers.
We need to be suspicious of the “concept” of Woman.
This “notion is itself an invention” of patriarchy, it implies nature, the family, reproductive heterosexuality and exclusivity.
Without the “notion of woman” there could be no patriarchy.
“Feminism” is no longer a project for female emancipation, it is “a mere forum” for sectional interests, composed of individuals whose only interest in intellectual activity is “securing” their own employment.
I ask, Should feminism be consigned to the wastebin of redundant ideas, or retained as a tool for social analysis?
I also ask, Do we still need feminism?
Beth V.
Do we still need feminism? Hell no. Did we use to need feminsim? Yes. Feminists have achieved their goals through legislation.
The goals of feminism today is to foster a prevailing attitude of misandry in our society. For the most part they have been succesful at this goal.
There is a growing movement of men fighting back. Just punch misandry into your serach engine ans note all of the blogs dedicated to fighting misandry in our society
What is the “Feminist” dilemma?
Over the past several decades, we as American women have gradually overcome the legal and cultural barriers to equal opportunity. We as women now receive well over half of all B.A.s and M.A.s, and working women have become the rule rather than the exception. We as women are becoming physicians, lawyers, CEOs, and scientists and are founding their own businesses in record numbers.
In the “Feminist” dilemma, most here argue that even though women's opportunities are now equal, women's and men's choices are not always the same.
Ironically, the achievement of women's equality poses a serious dilemma for contemporary feminists, who do not want to “acknowledge” that some of women's choices, such as studying literature rather than math, or leaving the work force to raise children, or even working part-time, lead to fewer women in top jobs.
The “flaw in contemporary feminist” thinking, I contend, is its insistence that anything less than statistical parity with men in any field–or even on college sports teams–is proof of discrimination against women.
The “Feminist” dilemma describes a wayward feminist movement that does not want to acknowledge women's real accomplishments because their existence marks the end of the movement's reason for being.
Rather than celebrate victory in their pursuit of women's equality, today's “feminists” feign defeat.
They “adopt the rhetoric” of victimization, suggesting that women can never succeed on their own, and they “crusade for preferential programs for women” in education and the workplace. Politicians and businesses fear becoming feminist targets and so lack the courage to challenge feminists' claims.
I have explained how the contemporary feminists' ideological campaign in the courts and in Congress is “undermining the principles” of our economic system–and how these efforts actually “do not help” women's progress!
I have explained how “The Feminist” will spark controversy and change the way we think about equality between men and women. It will be an eye-opener for anyone with an interest in law, politics, economics, and women's issues!
Feminist need research and honesty!
The women’s organizations have become “dishonest political” organizations, bent on “their own survival” and which “skew facts and figures” in order to “propagate the myth” that women are still “victims in our society” in need of “special” protection.
Their organizations survival is dependent upon the success or failure of this myth. We need to “expose” how these “organizations twist” and “bend the truth” to suit their “own” purposes.
The playing field has not only been leveled, it is tilting the other way!
I and others assert, the feminist movement seems much more “socialistic” than democratic.
Feminist need research and honesty!
Beth V.
I found your blog the day of or day after you tweeted that comment. I’ve been following you since.
The Huffington Post is mentioning your tweet about the miscarriage again, and I thought I’d share.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/17/shellie-ross-moms-tweets_n_395833.html
I didn’t read through all of your comments. I don’t have the patience. I think your Twitter post was in poor taste despite the good arguments that you laid out. I don’t care that talking about these issues enhances the female experience, because I don’t believe that at all. Miscarriage and abortion is extremely personal and whereas miscarriages do occur at work, it is not going to help the “female experience” by talking about it with co-workers. Talking about it helps, but only with certain people. If you want to blab your business around than great, but keep in mind a lot of people don’t want to hear it.
Now, I remember why I stopped reading your blog.
Also, as an adopted child, I am totally against abortion from all fronts. I am so thankful that my birth mother chose to give life to me so that I can have a shot at life. I was adopted into a wonderful family complete with two other adopted children and four other siblings (from birth). There are so many couples who want to have children and are on waiting lists to adopt children because there aren’t enough children available for them. What a sick world we live in when people have abortions and flaunt it around Twitter when there is a woman on her knees somewhere crying because she can’t have a child. I would love to meet my birth mom someday so I can thank her for not having an abortion.
You may not have wanted that child, but someone else did. If you’re going to have sex, even if you’re using protection, at least learn to deal with your consequences instead of hiding and covering up from them. How does that fit into the Brazen Careerist’s self-centered life?
April–I’m sorry you are so repulsed. But we have to be able to talk about the unspeakable as a society if we are going to move forward.
I don’t think anyone wants to flaunt abortions. That’s not what Penelope is doing here. I applaud her for talking about it.
“I am totally against abortion from all fronts.” Even if the woman was raped or her life is in danger?
This may sound callous of me to say, but if you or I had been aborted, we wouldn’t be around to be disappointed about it.
Maybe this feels brazen… but you know what, brazenness is what has won freedom throughout history… what beat back slavery and got women the right to vote. It’s not self-centered, it’s actually extremely necessary. Thank you, Penelope. You lose one subscriber, you gain another.
Thank you for this post. You some good points. And the hoops you have to go through in Wisconsin is an outrage. But your tweet was hilarious.
I admire you for your bravery and eloquence in the face of this controversy. I like to think one day the reality of women’s issues and choices will be understood and sympathized with by the world at large, instead of dismissed as “disgusting” or “inappropriate”. Thank you for helping us get a little bit closer to that day.
Here is a site with huge Information On Pregnancy Diseases And Genetic Testing. You can find information regarding Miscarriages in the first trimester of pregnancy in: http://www.geneticsofpregnancy.com/Encyclopedia/Miscarriages_in_the_first_trimester_of_pregnancy.aspx?pid=11
Imagine you saw the following tweet:
‘I’m eating a bagel. At the hospital where my disabled baby just died. Good thing, because now I won’t have to surrender her to the state as I had planned.’
Sure, death is a part of life, and many parents of severely disabled children might feel relieved of the burden and even want to run away. But doesn’t this seem unduly flippant, casual and cold, especially to use Twitter to discuss this? This is exactly how your tweet sounds. It makes you seem like a one-dimentional cold-hearted b*tch. Even if it was an unplanned pregnancy that you would terminate anyway, as a mom, you could have a little more respect for the little life that for a brief period struggled to survive and lost. Geez, it’s still a sad thing for the baby, even if on the other hand you feel relieved for yourself.
Please save the bull about ‘being honest’ or ‘educating people on a women’s issue’. You did not educate anyone about anything except maybe boost the pro-lifer’s theory that women who choose abortion are completely devoid of emotion. That is the sick part of this, not the actual miscarriage. How absurd for you to be surprised at people’s very critical and personal judgments if you are going to expose such personal things about yourself. Honestly, I’m not surprised to read that you are socially awkward and spent time in a mental facility. I hope more people come to their senses and un-follow you. Just being honest.
By the way, perhaps it’s you who needs the calculator and a visit to your OB/GYN since there ARE are 99.9% effective permanent birth control methods (as opposed to your failure method of just hoping you are too old). One is called Essure. It requires surgery, but since you were ok with surgical abortion then that shouldn’t be a problem. Try being proactive this time since you obviously have the means to do so.
You know some people cant really explain what problem do they have on work and that is the reason why they keep blaming management for their own problems!
Thanks for finally speaking the truth!
Amen to you Penelope
Why would anyone give money to Planned Parenthood based on this post? Planned Parenthood is obviously failing in teaching Penelope how to prevent unwanted pregnancies — throwing more money at the problem obviously is not solving the problem. I gave extra to the Catholic Church after I read this.
I just wanted to say something that I didn’t see addressed in these comments (my apologies if I missed it)…
When something, like the sudden death of a loved one (um, a non-fetal loved one), diagnosis of an illness, or a miscarriage (regardless of desire to birth and raise the child) happens there are very few people who feel the pain of the loss immediately and in a way that has been expressed in plenty of lifetime movies and on talk shows.
Usually the first response, for most but not by any means all, people, is one of utility and fact. It is time to pass along the information in some way, often to relieve some of the terrible pressure that it builds. If the author was in a meeting, perhaps twitter was the only place accessible. Perhaps she realized that rarely do people talk about feeling relief or happiness or even nothing about a loss immediately.
When I had my miscarriages I thought there was something terribly wrong with me emotionally, as I didn’t respond with a tear until weeks later, between the start of the miscarriage and then I felt guilt over feeling relief and even a bit of breathing room and at that time, after months of struggling with available choices and my own physical illness putting the fetus and my life at risk, relief and the ability to just relax for a moment sure felt like happiness, though I’m not sure for me, that is the best word to describe my personal experience.
I applaud Penelope’s honesty in sharing the information. Frankly, I couldn’t be disgusted with this as those were her feelings and she was sharing fact, and not fluffing it up with hand wringing and soaked handkerchiefs and red tired weepy eyes.
As far as the abortion issue- that is her right, and it is terrible that there is a 3 week wait (not a 3 week law for those that misunderstood her) for a Planned Parenthood appointment in WI, but that is still better than most places… Here in SW Florida pregnancy and abortion are not covered under most insurance policies. Even without insurance coverage, there is only one small women’s health clinic that offers the service to the public -that is one small clinic with limited hours for an area occupied by three cities.
The only part of this whole thing that really disturb me is the expectations one has placed on other people- from preaching about etiquette of sharing information, to how one should react to any miscarriage to graphic details about other people’s miscarriages while saying it was callous and in poor taste for Penelope to state her experience as fact. Choice also extends to reading a twitter post/tweet or a blog entry… It seems that many readers cannot understand that everyone experiences things and reacts differently, and really, there is no wrong way, except perhaps, not reacting or acknowledging things at all….
Processing loss, even if the loss was originally scheduled for another date and time, takes time.
I appreciate Penelope sharing how some of us deal with loss and change in our lives, perhaps if more people shared these real and icky feelings we would make more progress as people- as women and men in and out of the workplace.
Thanks to Penelope for at least piquing interest by breaking a stereotype.
For the record, I had a miscarriage at work, when I found out I was pregnant I told my manager and her response to my news was “ewwww, that’s gross”. My miscarriage was treated without any coddling or kindness, and with the same understanding as a kidney infection. A coworker, who was older and married at the time (I was in my early 20’s and engaged to be married) lost her pregnancy at the same time and she was coddled and pampered. I had to have a note faxed from my doctor expressing that my condition was life threatening and required visits at least once a week or my job was threatened my coworker was told to “take the rest of the afternoon and releax”
It seems that the bias and stereotypes regarding women and pregnancy also extends to marital status…
We haven’t come such a long way, baby….
Why would you be surprised that yor manager responded in such an indifferent way regarding you miscarriage? By dehumanizing the unborn through the legalization of abortion, there is no longer any reason to show compassion to parents for their loss after a miscarriage. After all, if we admit that we are losing someone of importance during miscarriage, we also have to admit that we are so selfish that we are willing to kill someone important during abortion. Sorry, you can’t have it both ways.
Abortion has further oppressed women and children.
“But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child – a direct killing of the innocent child – murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?” Mother Theresa
Wake up!
We have gone way backwards, baby. . . .
“when I found out I was pregnant I told my manager and her response to my news was “ewwww, that’s gross”
I realize that preceding this with the statement that “for the record I had a miscarriage at work” may have been confusing. No “Wake Up!” necessary on my part.
My comment has nothing to do with “dehumanizing the unborn child” or abortion and everything to do with the the perceptions and stereotypes in the workplace that aren’t just separating men and women, but also sub-catagorizing women. My coworker was treated appropriately like a person going through a dramatic loss, but mine was perceived as an office inconvenience for no other reason than the fact that I did not have the traditional accouterments of marriage and tradition adorning me in my pregnant, and then miscarrying state.
I have found that in a primarily female workplace that the most dramatic source of oppression comes from other women perpetuating the myths and stereotypes surrounding our bodies, our brains, our relationships, our finances, and our children.
Your example, due to misunderstanding of my wording, that abortion causes this coldness to miscarriage, is misapplied in regards to the experience that I shared.
I feel that abortion (when not used for physically therapeutic purposes) is typically a response to societal norms and attitudes that do not change to match the speed of current reality to the point that the societal norms and attitudes almost appear graphically static compared to changes in actual reality. Abortion seems to be, in most situations, used to adjust the situation to expectations rather than the other way around. (of course this is not always the case).
Marking abortion as the oppressor of women and children is putting the cart before the horse, in my opinion and doesn’t, by any means, offer anything other than an individual’s passionately held belief when in reality the root of the problem needs deep and careful exploration instead of neglecting the core cause(s) in the name of religion, science, ethics, etc…
Making abortion a criminal act will not solve a thing and more likely than not it will exacerbate many of the problems that have perpetuated the basic existence of the procedure, until an alternative option exists (adoption is one option, but not a one size fits all answer or alternative to abortion and it carries plenty of permanent scarring for many adoptees). Criminalizing abortion will, I believe, just add to the oppression and oppressive attitudes (as antiquated as many seem to be) that already support the industry (for lack of a better term).
Would you play Russian Roulette with a new baby? Would you put one bullet in a revolver and spin the chamber and pull the trigger on the baby? That is what most women do who like Penolope have unprotected sex witho0ut birth control. They have made huge strides in IUDS. I NOT ONLY BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD CRIMINALIZE ABORTION I believe that we should charge women with murder as well as the doctors who are the hired killers. You have a right to sexuality, but with every right comes responsibilities. That is like saying that you can drink and excusing drunk driving that results in an innocent person being killed because of your irresponsibilty.
what about the owner of the penis involved?
does he get off scott free?
I think we should arrest every man on attempted murder who fails to apply a condom.
Also, the bible says not to spill your seed on the ground. So, the next time you jerk off, I will crawl in through your bedroom window, where I was previously watching you from behind a shrub, and make a citizen’s arrest.
@John Wilder – Your logic is seriously flawed. I won’t count all of the ways. At the very least, I think you forgot to include the sperm donor in your list of people that should be charged with murder in your f-ed up world. A man is just as capable, if not more so, of preventing pregnancies.
John, I often think this whole thing would be so much easier if there was a defining moment when a fetus becomes a baby/person. Oh wait – there is. Birth. I don’t think there could possibly be a more clear moment. Been there twice myself. Hard not to miss.
By me, can I assume that it is penelope commenting?
Well the feiminists got teir way in the Roe Vs Doe decision in 1977 that stated that a man can have no say so about the unborn child, even a husband. That being said, I agree with you that if a man has a part in encouraging the abortion, then he is guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.
WE have schizophrenic laws in this country. It is a right to commit murder for convenience, but if you harm a bald eagle egg, it is a $10,000 fine and a five year jail sentence. Kind of hypocritical don’t you think? If I hit you with my car and cause you to lose the baby you are carrying I am guilty of vehicular manslaughter. How is this so according to your logic?
You are going to have to do better at exposing flaws in my logic.
I agree that men are just as capable (not any more so except in cases of rape) of preventing pregnancies as women. However, once conception takes place, the father has no rights on whether the fetus is murdered so he cannot be culpable of wrongdoing (except of course when he wrongly pressures and pays for his fetus to be killed but even then the law allows women to have the final say).
The father is however required by law to pay from the day the fetus magically turns into a baby. Some courts will even order the father to pay medical expenses before the fetus is born but according to your logic I don’t understand how a man could possibly be legally liable for medical care of a non-person that he has no legal say in it’s becoming a person. It’s your logic that is seriously flawed.
I agree with Bek above that the most dramatic source of oppression of women comes from other women. We are our own worst enemies. Roe vs. Wade made this exponentially worse when it gave us the legal right to kill our unborn. What did women really think would happen? Again, I say Wake Up!
You don’t think that there could possibly be a clearer point than birth to define personhood but you should really try to think a bit harder. If you’ve been there twice before and didn’t realize you were carrying a human person before birth, you have major issues with denial or need a refresher course in elementary biology. I’ve been there before as well, but I was fully awake from first missed period until birth(especially when being kicked by in your words my non-person fetuses). Hard not to miss.
I do not believe abortion should be criminalized; however, I think hearts need to be changed through education and love as we see happening in our lifetimes. History is full of examples of criminals legally being allowed to live free (example: Holocaust and Slavery) but these evils were eventually conquered by the Truth. Our society is still full of racists and anti-sematics, it’s just that they are now frowned upon as they should be and are no longer legally allowed to take the hate in their hearts out on others.
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org/
Normally I am one of Barb’s biggest supporters. Ihave to respectfully disagree with her stance about not criminalizing abortion. We need to get some consistency in our laws. Why is it that I I hit a woman with my car and cause her to loose her baby, I will be charged with vehicular manslaughter? The arguments that support a woamn’s right to kill her unborn baby can be used to support my right to sexually abuse my daughter.
I am not anti semitic but we could use a little biblical history here. The Jews were God’s chosen people. They repeatedly broke God’s commandments about their children. They did not have abortion but they sacrificed their unwanted children on bonfires alive to the false God Moloch. In times of siege, they were being starved out behind the city walls, they killed and ate their own children. Children were not considered persons under their law until they turned 13. This is why the Jews were so insulted when they asked Jesus who would be the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven and he showed them a little child. Sort of like women getting mad when they are told that their unborn children are persons as well.
The Jews said never again would there be a massive extermination and yet the Jews are one of the few denominations that supports abortion rights. It seems hyopcritical to me. We have long since eclipsed the 6 million Jews that were exterminated with murdered unborn children. I can’t respect this.
Hi John,
I certainly agree about the inconsistent laws. I feel that criminalizing abortion at this point is beyond what our systems could handle. Abortion has so spiraled out of control and caused so many other issues since it was legalized and I feel that the only way to address it at this point is through education and love. If we had compassionately addressed the issues that led to abortion in the first place, we wouldn’t be in this boat.
This is a hard one for me to live out and I can only do it with His help — “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” (Luke 23:34) I continue to try to forgive like this because this is how I want to be forgiven.
Not all slave owners or Nazis were jailed or punished. However, if someone behaved like this now, they would be punished. My previous last statement, “they are no longer legally allowed to take the hate in their hearts out on others.” If abortion is ever made illegal, I agree that it should be criminalized — starting with the “doctors” pocketbooks. I see more and more young people that can see abortion for what it truly is.
I personally believe that if “humanity” doesn’t change it’s course soon, there will be none of us left to disagree with anyway.
God Bless You and Your Family
Hey Barb:
I understand and respect your viewpoint. I am not swayed though. I would be the first to admit that criminalizing abortion won’t stop it just like rape and chid abuse. Should we then say that we should do away with laws forbidding rape and child abuse. The law is there to protect us.
There will always be criminals willing to break the law. I fail to understand how we can have laws protecting dogs and eagles but not laws protecting innocent unborn children. Feminists are completely inconcsistent since half of all murdered babies are innocent girls. They can take a stand against genital mutilatioin but not murder of their own.
As to my comments against Jewish support of abortion, I was speaking directly to Penelope who is Jewish. I was exposing the inconsistency in her logic.
There can be room in the theatre of ideas for both of our positions. You being the forgiving one and me standing for justice and consistency of laws.
best wishes
John
Thanks John. Points well understood and taken in. Keep up the fight!
Take care. Barb
Great Article Penelope! I hope I can make a difference at my workplace someday – by assisting with issues related to such a sensitive topic.
Regards
I am actually at a loss for words. There are tears in my eyes and my heart is beating for you. People should really stop judging others and accept that while they might not always agree with other people’s journeys and decisions, it is still theirs, and that is holy and sacrosanct. This is one of the most touching blog posts I’ve ever read. Thank you, and I sincerely mean this.
Planned Parenthood covering up the rape of children and parents murdering their unborn children to hide their selfish behaviors brings many, many tears to my eyes. Are you not judging pro-life people the same way you want them to stop judging Penelope?
Please don’t judge my choice (and right) to oppose rape and murder. It is my journey and decision. I do not believe in covering up the rape and the murder of innocent children. I will continue to use my voice for those who cannot use their own.
“If abortion is not wrong, nothing is wrong.” Mother Theresa
I judge conduct and attitudes not people. Just as I judge NAMBLA (THE nORTH aMERICAN mAN BOY lOVE aSSN). Killing innocent unorn babies is always wrong and I judge that and speak vehemently against anyone who supports it. It is vile and reprehensible.
DAMN RIGHT! I’ve never had an abortion, but I have had a miscarriage, and I can still agree with you that having a miscarriage is WAAAAY better (or at least not as horrible) as having an abortion….No one enjoys having abortions (i hope). And I wish I had someone to talk to about it. I had no one. So thank you for this! (and yes I was at work…until I was at the emergency room…)
yeah like havin sex
But… you didn’t have a miscarriage. You had an abortion. Miscarriages are not chosen, but abortions are. Don’t compare the two; it’s quite callous to those women who have lost their babies by accident.
You’re an idiot. Read the post again carefully.
This is disgusting. You are a very sad, supremely selfish person. And if you had an abortion, you are a murderer. There is no doubt about why you got divorced and are unable to remarry. You are supremely absorbed with the greatness of yourself and it is sick. I feel sorry for your children. This is the last post I will read from such a messed up person.
And Jesus said, Judge not lest you be judged. I don’t approve of abortion ether but this kind of judgementalism and hatred is not appropriate
I believe Mr. John Wilder is discombobulating in his statement about “What does the Bible mean that we are not to judge others?”
This is an issue that has confused many people. On one hand, we are commanded by the Lord Jesus, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged" (Matthew 7:1).
On the other hand, the Bible also exhorts us to beware of evildoers and false prophets and to avoid those who practice all kinds of evil. How are we to discern who these people are if we do not make some kind of judgment about them?
Christians are often accused of “judging” whenever they speak out against a sinful activity. However, that is not the meaning of the Scripture verses that state, “Do not judge.”
There is a righteous kind of judgment we are supposed to exercise – with careful discernment (John 7:24). When Jesus told us not to judge (Matthew 7:1), He was telling us not to judge hypocritically. Matthew 7:2-5 declares, “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, – Let me take the speck out of your eye' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
What Jesus was condemning here was hypocritical, self-righteous judgments of others.
We are also reminded of Comandment 6 from The King James Version Exodus 20 “Thou shalt not kill.”
Again, maybe the true question is “Is abortion murder?” You can’t manage your work life if you can’t talk about murder. I am reminded of the phrase, “Contention is inseparable from creating knowledge. It is not contention we should try to avoid, but discourses that attempt to suppress contention.”
We should pay particular attention to segments of data, with a view to examining the ways in which the teacher exercises control over the students through the discourse he or she constructs. Basic pedagogical interaction.
Respectfully submitted,
Beth V.