What’s the connection between abortion and careers?
I have had two abortions.
The first one was when I was twenty-seven. I was playing professional beach volleyball. I was playing volleyball eight hours a day and I spent two hours a day at the gym. I noticed that I was getting tired more easily, but I thought it meant I needed to train harder.
Then one weekend, a doctor friend on a visit saw me drop a plate one day, and a vase the next. I told her my hands just gave out because they were so tired.
She said I was anemic. Then she said, “Maybe you're pregnant.”
“I'm not,” I said. “I have a regular period.”
It turns out, though, that you can have a regular period and still be pregnant.
And I was. Fourteen weeks.
My friend said, “Schedule the abortion now. You're already late for it.”
I didn't do anything. I was in shock. My boyfriend was in shock. Neither of us had ever had a pregnancy. I couldn't believe the whole process actually worked, to be honest.
I told my mom I was pregnant. She said, “Get an abortion.”
I didn't say anything. I wasn't really thinking I had any choices. I didn't have a job that could support a child. And I wasn't sure if I was planning to marry my boyfriend, although we were living together. I knew that I had big ideas for my life and I hadn't figured things out yet.
My mom got militant. “You'll destroy your career possibilities.”
She riffed on this theme for a week, calling me every night. Her passion is understandable. My mom took a job when I was young because she hated being home with kids. She endured interview questions like, “Does your husband want you away from home working?” She was one of the first women to become an executive at her Fortune 500 company. She blazed trails so I could have career goals that required an abortion to preserve.
Here's what else happened: Other women called. It turned out that many, many women I knew had had an abortion. This is not something women talk about. I mean, I had no idea how ubiquitous the procedure was, at least in my big-city, liberal, Jewish world.
Each of those women told me that I should get an abortion so that I could keep my options open. “You're a smart girl. You can do anything with your life right now. Don't ruin it.”
My boyfriend was laying low. He was no slouch when it came to pro-choice politics and he knew it was, ultimately, my decision.
But the minute I said I would get an abortion, he was driving me to Planned Parenthood.
You had to go once to set up the appointment, and then go back.
When I went back, I had a panic attack. I was on the table, in a hospital gown, screaming.
The nurse asked me if I was a religious Christian.
The boyfriend asked me if I was aware that my abortion would be basically illegal in seven more days.
I couldn't stop screaming. I was too scared. I felt absolutely sick that I was going to kill a baby. And, now that I know more about being a mother, I understand that hormones had already kicked in to make me want to keep the baby. We left. No abortion.
My boyfriend started panicking by suddenly staying really late at work and going out with friends a lot. I stopped playing volleyball because I got tired so quickly.
People kept calling me: They said, “Think about how you'll support the child. Think about what you'll do if your boyfriend leaves you. You're all alone in LA with no family. How will you take care of yourself?”
People gave me advice: Get a job. Once you have established yourself in a career, you'll feel much better about having kids. Figure out where you fit in the world. Get a job, then get married, and then have kids.
I scheduled another abortion. But it was past the time when Planned Parenthood will do an abortion. Now it was a very expensive one at a clinic that seemed to cater to women coming from Christian countries in South America. I knew that if I did not go through with it this time, no one would do the abortion. I was too far along.
So I did it.
I went to sleep with a baby and woke up without one. Groggy. Unsure about everything. Everything in the whole world.
People think abortion is such an easy choice–they say, “Don't use abortion as birth control.” Any woman who has had one will tell you how that is such crazy talk. Because an abortion is terrible. You never stop thinking about the baby you killed. You never stop thinking about the guy you were with when you killed the baby you made with him. You never stop wondering.
So the second time I got pregnant, I thought of killing myself. My career was soaring. I was 30 and I felt like I had everything going for me — great job, great boyfriend, and finally, for the first time ever, I had enough money to support myself. I hated that I put myself in the position of either losing all that or killing a baby.
I didn't tell anyone I was pregnant. I knew what they'd say.
So I completely checked out emotionally. I scheduled the abortion like I was on autopilot. I told my boyfriend at the last minute and told him not to come with me.
He said forget it. He's coming with me.
I remember staring at the wall. Telling myself to stop thinking of anything.
The doctor asked me, “Do you understand what's going to happen?”
I said yes. That's all I remember.
I got two abortions to preserve my career. To keep my options open. To keep my aspirations within reach.
I bought into the idea that kids undermine your ability to build an amazing career.
And here I am, with the amazing career.
But also, here I am with two kids. So I know a bit about having kids and a career. And I want to tell you something: You don't need to get an abortion to have a big career. Women who want big careers want them because something deep inside you drives you to change the world, lead a revolution, break new barriers.
It doesn't matter whether you have kids now or later, because they will always make your career more difficult. There is no time in your life when you are so stable in your work that kids won't create an earthquake underneath that confidence.
I think about the men I was with when I had the abortions. They were not bad men. One is my ex-husband. So much of life is a gamble, and I think I might have had as good a chance of staying together with the first guy as I did with my ex-husband. And I am not sure that my life would have turned out worse if I had had kids early. I am not sure it would have turned out better. I'm not even sure it would have been that different.
You never know, not really. There is little certainty. But there are some certain truths: It's very hard to have an abortion. And, there is not a perfect time to have kids.
And I wonder, are there other women out there who had abortions in the name of their career and their potential? What do those women think now?
I appreciate your post. However, I disagree on the statement that “you never stop thinking about the baby you killed”. I had an abortion @ age 26 and don’t regret my decision AT ALL. As soon as I learned I was pregnant, I was in the yellow pages looking up clinics. There was never any indecision on my part. Having a child would have completely changed my life but not for the better (in my opinion). Right now, I am 34 with no kids and love every minute of my freedom.
Well, then you’re a cold-blooded killer instead of a normal killer. Either way you should be in jail. Or given a chastity belt, slut.
Definition of “slut” = anyone who gets laid more than you.
Penelope – Please don’t make generalizations about what women feel or think after they’ve had abortions. Your experiences may have been painful and/or traumatizing, but that is not the reality for most women. The most common feeling after an abortion is relief. I’ve also had 2 abortions (both of which were after having my son) and very rarely think about them and definitely do not think about the men with whom I became pregnant.
The website of Guttmacher Institute has the best information regarding abortion.
http://www.guttmacher.org/sections/abortion.php
Perhaps you should keep your legs closed instead of killing the innocent. Even if you’re a slutty whore, the baby doesn’t deserve to die.
Nice piece of writing, Penelope.
What struck me was how we all have such strong opinions about what our loved ones should do with their lives, and what decisions they should make. Imagine if nobody had pressured you one way or another. Why do I as a wife, aunt, friend, etc., think I know what someone else should do? Or that they would know what’s best for me?
Backing off until asked for advice would be a good rule of relational life. Hmmm, maybe I’ll try that myself a little more.
I’m tired of all these parents (men and women) who preach about “giving up the 6 figure salary and the BMW” to raise their precious children. Give me a friggen break… what do you want those of us who make under $40,000 per year do – nominate you for sainthood? EVERYONE makes sacrifices to raise children, even the lower middle class, believe it or not, so shut the EFF up about what you gave up, you’re probably giving your children a guilt complex.
I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with this comment. I know a ton of people struggling paycheck to paycheck, working low-paying jobs, plus raising kids, living in crappy neighborhoods. It is REALLY hard to sympathize with those who need are “struggling” with having to downgrade from a BMW to a Honda – when some of the parents I know don’t even HAVE a car.
A-freakin-men. Not all women are having abortions so they can have glamorous careers, designer clothes, drive BMWs, and take fabulous vacations. A lot of people grind their way through poverty, day after day, and because they can’t afford to live in a decent neighborhood or send their kids to a decent school, their kids just end up making the same bad choices they did. Some people have abortions because they are *really* poor (not giving up the BMW for the Honda, but unable to afford more than a $500 car in the first place). They don’t want to spend their entire lives that way, and they don’t want to add to the problem by bringing more people into that life either.
Even though I vehemently disagree with your pro-choice politics, I applaud you for your bare naked honesty. Having a baby can be tough, no doubt about it. People should be much more responsible if they are going to be sexually active. I also appreciate the fact that you did not try to demean the humanity of the baby and called it killing a baby which it was.
There is a $10,000 fine for destroying an eagle egg but nothing for killing a baby. If you were hit by a car and had a miscarriage for a baby you wanted, it would be a prosecutable crime of vehicular manslaughter. If you want to kill the baby by abortion then it is legal. If you decide to keep the baby, the man is on the hook for 18 years of child support, but if you want to kill the baby, he has no “choice” in the matter even if he would keep it and raise it. That certainly is not what I would call equal rights.
Equal rights don’t apply. Legally, it’s a baby if Mom says it’s a baby. And that is illogical, which is why this issue will never be resolved.
Penelope, thanks for your perspective. I had an abortion when I was 19 because I was a college dropout barely keeping a temp job and trying desperately to deal with issues from having been raped at age 15 and never having received any help with that up to that point. I had the abortion because my life was a mess, I had been making randome and bad choices for some time, but for the first time my future life flashed before me with brutal clarity, with what would happen if I became forever associated with the guy of the time, who was one of my worst choices of all.
It was very hard to have the abortion, I waited as long as I could at the first level clinic which only did up to 10 weeks, and even then I wasn’t ready so I ended up having to lie to them to get the procedure at 12 weeks because I couldn’t afford the higher fee of the next level clinic, which ended up leading to complications. I truly wish I had the baby and gave it up for adoption, but at the time as you said the hormones were already affecting me and I didn’t think I would have the strength to give it up, especially with the mind games my dysfunctional guy was starting. So I did what I felt I had to, for my potential, for my future, and I can honestly say it worked.
I literally turned my life around largely because of this wakeup call, I severed the relationship though I still had problems for awhile, and eventually got on the path to go back to school, build a successful career in HR, and create a life to be proud of. Despite all that, and how very different my life could have turned out, 20 years later I still regret the abortion whenever I think of it. I still think it about it often as you said, about the baby, about how I ended its life. I made the best decision I could at the time yet regardless of consequences, I would change that decision if I could. I think my life might be very different now, but I also believe that my potential would have come through, perhaps in a different form.
Penelope, I very much thank you for posting how it was for you, and how you feel now, I think it can be very useful to those who may be contemplating this decision.
To any naysayers of this post, I say – read the conclusion/ bottom line. It seems to me that Penelope is revealing this about herself in order to help those who might be contemplating abortion to decide not to have an abortion. I think this perspective is extremely valuable to that decision!
As a deeply spiritual pro-live woman who believes women should have the right to choose what happens to their own bodies, I am very conflicted about the abortion rights issue, but as it stands now, with the right in place, I am all for ANY information that could help a woman in good conscience choose life over abortion. And I think this post unquestionably does that. Thans Penelope!
Cool. Abortions are just like a pesky zit. 1, 2, 3 POP and the problem is gone.
Not surprised that abortion is as prevalent as it is. The abortion doctors surely love the business. All they need to do is advocate that women exercise their right to abortion they can have unprotected sex and a steady stream of potential customers is skulking around the Drs’ waiting room.
Responsibility? What the hell is going thru your head? I’m going to have sex with some guy, god only knows who, and to hell with the consequences. I can always get an abortion. I wonder if the thought ever occurs that had one of the parents acted in the same manner you wouldn’t be to discuss it? Hypothetical questions suck, I know.
I guess as long as everyone continues to live in the moment, demand near-instant gratification and can avoid the life-style changing effects of child bearing thru a simple medical procedure on their plumbing, who am I to muse about it? I’m just another dick owner that are ultimately the cause of all these women’ problems.
Thank goodness you’re approaching perimenopause and probably can’t become pregnant any longer …..
WTF, it’s possible to be pregnant and to have a regular period? Is this with regular flow? I am contemplating becoming celibate.
I don’t want kids, but this has nothing to do with my career. It has more to do with having an easier life and more leisure time, and kids definitely don’t increase leisure.
To your Christian “pro-life” readers: if you are willing to be open-minded, I recommend reading “Writings on an Ethical Life” by philosopher Peter Singer. He makes a compelling argument for why abortion is an ethically acceptable choice.
Um, sorry, but what planet do you live on? I wish I considered work as “privilege,” but on my planet (and most other’s I’m guessing) it’s a NECESSITY. Also, it never fails to amaze me that people who profess to subscribe to “Christian values” (whatever that means) can say horrible, unwarranted things about others just because they have a different belief system than they themselves “claim” to have. You hope someone loses their job? That’s sooooooo moral and loving of you to say. You must be so proud to be a so-called Christian.
Work is merely a privilege in some people’s lives.
Life is a gift.
It is truly saddening to see how some people value life so cheaply.
Perhaps if they were in danger of losing their own lives, they
may reconsider the true value of the gift of life.
This is what is wrong with the world today.
When an individual values a foodblender, a car, a job, a thing
over the value of life itself, it is telling me, I should never have been
born because I am worth less than a thing. People who value things more than people, should then go on to run companies where they treat people like things, because they have no respect for life?
I hope you all lose your ‘valuable’ jobs.
Then we will see what you are really made of.
I used to work at Planned Parenthood. I was fanatically pro-choice. That was a few years ago. I am still pro-choice, but it became much more difficult for me to imagine having an abortion now that I have kids of my own. Thanks for sharing your incredible story.
The Supreme Court copped out with the explanation that “experts could not agree on when life begins”. It is simple, when the sperm and egg unite. However we can backtrack and extrapolate from when life ends. Life ends medically when we become brain dead (no brain wave activity) and when the heart stops and is unable to be revived.
We know scientifically that the baby has a heart beat that is detectable 18 days from conception. We also know scientifically that the baby has detectable brain wave activity 6 weeks from time of conception. Usually the mother does not even know that she is pregnant yet and we have the legal opposite of dead already growing inside her.
I’m curious about all the women that came out of the wordwork and told you about their abortions as soon as you were considering one for yourself…they weren’t in emotional pain from their abortions? And if they were, they were happy and apparently eager to recommend it to a friend? I don’t understand.
How does one who’s not considering an abortion get these same women to come out of hiding and talk about it (cuz as you mentioned it’s not something anyone talks about)? Especially for the women that are hurting.
brave post, penelope! i am willing to wager that the men who sit in judgment of your decisions are the same ones who would probably pass you over as a job candidate for someone else who is less likely to breed.
Hey, I’ve got an idea, ladies… how about keeping your legs closed?
I am a Male, and have had 3 abortions.
Just one of them would have had devastating financial implications upon my career had it not been performed, let alone all three.
As a male, all 3 of them could easily be blamed on being young, dumb, and less than careful. But the fact that not having had even one of them ruining my future is something I didnt see broached in the responses.
Eliminate the legal requirement for the males to financially support a child he has no say-so over whether or not it is born, and I will stand on a soap box shouting “Pro-Life” all the day long.
But due to the fact men are required to pay child support for 21 years, I’m screaming “Pro-Choice” at the top of my lungs!
Penelope, I as well as your 2 former bf’s, salute you not only for your choices, but also for your honesty!
We keep analyzing whether abortion affects a woman’s career. Or a man’s. But what about the baby’s?
I’m one who chose to keep her baby. That baby is now an adult and has a fabulous six-figure career. More importantly, she’s smart, caring and a humanitarian. The world is a better place because she was born.
Wow..tks for your candidness and the reality of emotions that come with an abortion decision. I’ve had good friends who went this way and every one of them has struggled with sadness after the fact (most have children now and I think that added to it). I just had a baby boy and I am single and 44. I have an excellent career but panicked over my age. I was told I couldn’t have any more children – right. Does every women secretly consider the option to opt out? I did and the temptation was there to consider myself first on this one – after all, what if my health were jeopardized? Plenty of people jumped on the bandwagon to tell me in a nice way that I was too old for this. I waffled for a good month and the doctor told me I was running out of time to decide. However, I could always go to another state and get a late, expensive abortion. Then, I caved and did the ultrasound and that was it. It was a boy and there was his hand. Now, I have beautiful baby Sean in a bassinet asleep right now who smiles at me every time he wakes up. I took my right to choose and consider; no question that the choice was right when I see Sean – other circumstances and criticisms will have to take a second seat. And my career didn’t magically disappeared. I’m still 44 and made it through. So did Sean who came a month early. No choice is made emotion-free and there is no anesthesia for it waiting by our side. Our choices cost us one way or the other – the question is was it worth the price? Tks for the excellent, thought provoking post on this subject.
Thank you for your candor.
Pure selfishness. Nothing more.
That post was powerful. It completely grabed me and pulled me in. You are super strong for telling everything like it is. I really applaud you for your strength in this. You are a hero to some Christine
I know you have gotten a lot of immature comments for what you did – but I think what you said in your post is completely courageous. Thank you –
I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with this post. I know a ton of people struggling paycheck to paycheck, working low-paying jobs, plus raising kids, living in crappy neighborhoods. It is REALLY hard to sympathize with those who need are “struggling” with having to downgrade from a BMW to a Honda. Thanks
brave post, penelope!
I used to work at Planned Parenthood. I was fanatically pro-choice. That was a few years ago. I am still pro-choice, but it became much more difficult for me to imagine having an abortion now that I have kids of my own. Thanks for sharing your incredible story.
I’m sure you will get a slew of immature comments to this. And also a bunch of bashing. And you might even lose a few readers. I commend you for talking openly about things that nobody talks about. That is why you’re so successful. I also appreciate how you continue to relate the “crazy topics” (first oral, now abortion) back to your career.
I’m not sure that being practical is selfish, but if it is, I’m OK with that.
I found out I was pregnant when I was 20 years old and in college. From the moment the test turned positive, every cell in my body screamed that this was a terrible mistake and I absolutely wanted an abortion.
I have never – not once – regretted that decision and I have always been grateful that I had access to compassionate care and a safe and legal abortion. I thank the doctor who provided me with excellent, caring service by sending a donation to the clinic every year, even more than 15 years later.
And every year, I look back at the path my life has taken and what might have been, and I am completely at peace with my choice. I never forget, but I never regret either.
I reminisced a bit, and remember my female friend, at aged 18 shes’s pregnant and they got married, she promised to herself after birth she would finished schooling, unfortunately she didn’t. She was in difficult times(with her husband), didn’t had career. With the help of their parents, they surpassed difficulties. There’s choices that we make and the choices you will take, just leave them there. it’s your life and we could take it from there.
Wow, your honesty is amazing. I understand the fear and was lucky enough not to have had to make the choice. I did hold a friends hand through it once and thought I would chose to have the baby if it ever happened to me. I got pregnant 4 months before my wedding, then miscarried. It took another 5 years to get pregnant again. My son was the best thing to happen in my life and I left a great job I loved (with great travel) to be with him because he hated it when I was gone. I have never regretted that decision. It is a personal choice and you are right that people have no idea what women go through who face this decision.
What a brave post! Thank you for choosing to be vulnerable and letting women know that you can be successful and have children… I applaud you!
This might be my favorite Penelope Trunk blog of all time.
I love pretty much all your blogs – I love their complexity, I love the personal way in which you write them and yes, the advice therein soothes my 20-something, nervous-about-her-career-and-life-in-general soul.
But THIS blog? This is the best thing I’ve heard anybody say about abortion in a long time, if not ever. You’re not moralizing, for one. You’re challenging the conventional wisdom that women need to be single and childless to do well in their careers. This idea holds women back in so many ways, and it’s so good to hear someone say otherwise. And your candor in telling us all *your* story is extremely refreshing. Thank you!
I would like to add my voice to the many who have said thank you: Thank you, Penelope, for sharing your abortion story. I am lucky enough to have never faced the decision to have one or not but am grateful every day that I have the choice should the need arise. I am grateful to every woman who has shared their abortion story – it is vitally important that we have access to each other’s stories and stay in the dark no more.
Thank you for talking so openly about this issue. It’s definitely something that get’s overlooked and pushed aside in the face of more “important” issues. I will soon be entering the working world, and I am sure that at some point in my life I will come across this same problem, whether personally or with a friend.
Thanks again, and keep up the candid, honest conversation!
The thing about your post that really struck me was the fact that you wanted kids and were in sexual realtionships where conception was possible but you had chosen a life that was so incompatable with having children that you had abortions. I am not taking sides on your choices but I’m more interested in how you reconciled wanting children with wanting a life that didn’t allow for them.
I’ve always known I want to have children so I’ve made choices all along the way to create a life that will allow for them. I’ve chosen a career I love that also pays me enough to support myself and childen even if a partner were not in the picture but does not require so much of my time or energy that I would have to ‘decide’ between career and kids.
Instead of moving to a huge metropolis after college like the vast majority of my peers, I choose to move to a smaller significantly less cool city where the pace of life is much slower. regardless of if I have children or not, this city believes in community and supports families and singles accordingly. I’m 22 and I plan on having/adopting/fostering while I’m still young so I work for an organization that is openly supportive of people with children.
Friends have told me I’m ‘designing my life around kids I haven’t even had yet.” but I see it not as making sacrifices for kids I don’t have but rather creating a life that leaves my options open. If I never have a child I’m still very happy with my career, my community, and my life. I really appreicate your posts about how young women need to be thinking about the reality of their own fertility and organize their lives accordingly. Shouldn’t we all be talking about making choices to create lives where decisions like this aren’t so difficult?
“I had no idea how ubiquitous the procedure was, at least in my big-city, liberal, Jewish world.”
Quite frankly, I cannot imagine a more outspokenly Pro-Choice world. Maybe not everyone discusses it, but it almost seems to be a rite-of-passage among hip, educated and career women.
But I can at least admire your nuance given to this issue.
Thank you for sharing your story. Being a single 27 y.o. (tall (in reference to a previous post!)) working woman. With as many times as I’ve been told how much a pregnancy can ruin my life and career until I have the husband, house, and career set, I’ve never had someone tell me otherwise. I applaud you for sharing your story and viewpoint.
That is selfishness. You could easily have given those babies up for adoption instead of murdering them. If I think it will advance my career, am I justified in murdering my co-worker?
The recent commenter “Deanna” is completely NUTSO.
Many other pro-Life commenters have made very intelligent and moving comments for their cause, and I have learned a lot from them.
People like Deanna do not do much to win over hearts and minds.
I just wanted to say that I had three kids, starting when I was 23, and still am a litigator. It can work out, but you are right, it is hard. Not many people chose my path, but I like where I am and would not change it for anything. Most other female (and even male) litigators I know either don’t have kids, have a stay at home spouse, or waited until the last minute to have kids, when the biological clock was ticking. I like my way. They might like theirs. Who is to say who is right and wrong?
I can’t believe I just read that. I can’t believe the choice was so easy for you to make to “preserve” your career…like one commenter said “look how that turned out”. Way to go Mom! Your volleyball career is a failure and you have two hash marks on your abortion bed to show for it. I don’t care how immature, judgmental, cruel, or insensitive this comment sounds or is. I don’t care about “casting stones” either. You were a big enough girl to kill a perfect precious little baby, so you’re a big enough girl to take all the bashing that comes with it. First of all, your mom is a heartless person. She should have aborted you if she didn’t want to have to stay home with you…oh wait, that would have been murder. Somehow those two always confuse me. Second, the fact that you even had the second abortion speaks a lot about your character and what’s important to you….oh, and lets not forget how “painful” of a decision it was. But then again, I’m sure the “successful” careers you have/had will bring you a lot of comfort when you’re on your deathbed. I’m sure you’ll look back and say, “I sure am glad I succeeded in my career. What a joyous day this is! My life is a success!”
Let me break here to say I DON’T CARE ABOUT CHANGING ANYONE’S MINDS OR HEARTS so don’t go all “I’ve learned a lot from other pro-life people, but your comments do nothing to change people” on me. Nothing will change the heart of someone whose career is more important than life.
Lastly, and yes I’m cruel and heartless – but isn’t that what the decision to have an abortion is? Cruel and heartless? Don’t talk to me about respecting your decision or your opinion when you didn’t respect the two babies’ opinions before you killed them. Don’t say you didn’t have a job that would support a kid. You chose lifestyle over life. Many people work more than one job for min wage so they can support their children. You chose a flashy lifestyle over LIFE. I hope your last days are filled with such distress, anguish and unforgettable, unforgivable regret that you can’t leave this earth quick enough to escape the turmoil. I’m done reading your blog. And you know what? I really enjoyed it, but I, unlike some people on here, have mature standards to uphold.
That last commenter “B” really is a “B”… and, I can feel the spittle from his/her rabidly foaming mouth from here.
Ugh. Grow a brain.
Thank you.
Its interesting how this post brings out the anger from people on both sides of the fence. Pro-lifers saying “how dare you have an abortion, twice.” Pro-choicers saying “how dare you say that people will regret it.”
I think to the point of regret, its important for a woman to examine and know her self thoroughly, you run a very real risk that you will regret an abortion for your entire life. Not that all will, maybe not even the majority. But you probably shouldn’t care about all, or the majority in this case. You should know if you, yourself, will regret it.
Another thing I will add is that I have never heard a parent say they regret having kids. I’ve never heard someone say, “I love my kids, but I really would have preferred [insert sport or University education or Job title] instead. They wonder about it, but not necessarily regret.
I am of pro choice sentiment, but my choice would always be life. I also don’t believe its my choice to choose what other people do. If God gave you the choice to sin, who am I to try and take it away?
Anyways, my soapbox is unsteady, im gonna get down now.
I am a male and a passionate pro-lifer. I would like to clarify the word choice. Pro choicers couch their arguments in freedom of choice and we should not legislate morality, ESPECIALLY MEN! Well we legislate morality all of the tiime, it is called laws. We have outlawed rape, does anyone disagree with that? Would you support my right to choose to express my sexualality and my right to sexual relief because I choose to force someone to have sex with me?
As a father of a daughter, would you support my choice to gratify my sexuality by having sex with my daughter in my own home. I am feeding her, clothing her and putting a roof over my head. What I do in privacy is my own business. Who are you to tell me what to do in my own home with my own daughter.
You must admit, that the choice argument does not hold up nearly so well on crimes that we agree on. You have ultimately taken “choice” away from the unborn baby.
To break an bald eagle egg incurs a $10,000 fine. To kill an unborn baby is “choice”. If you want the baby, it is a baby and if I hit you with my car and cause you to lose the baby, it is vehicular manslaughter. If you don’t want the baby, it is not a baby but a fetus and your right to “terminate” you pregnancy; a euphemism that does not sound so bad as “killing a baby”. I remmember the “terminator” movies and the whole point of the “terminator” was to be a killing machine. Truly Orwell was right when he predicted “double speak” to camoflage things so that they sound more acceptable.
We define death legally as the cessation of a heartbeat and brain wave activity. Why do we not define life as the presence of heartbeat and brainwave activity? WE have detable fetal heartbeats 18 days from conception and detectable brainwave activity 6 weeks from conception. Answer those questions ladies before you verbally chastise me.
A fertilised egg is not a life, it’s a potential life.
Even religious doctrine used to believe this. Catholic teaching used to be that there was a concept called the “quickening” – where the soul entered the unborn child at approximately 12 weeks. Before that date, abortions were permissible. This was the case until the early/mid 20th century, I believe.
To the point made by John who posted just before me:
I agree with someone else who commented that the cut-off point between the woman’s rights and baby’s rights is the point at which the baby could live without the mother’s body.
If I need a kidney, and John above is a perfect match, no court on earth would legally obligate John to give up one of his kidneys so that I can live. It’s John’s body, he gets to choose what happens to it, even if it means I will die. Does this mean that John has killed me?
Is this choice of John’s the same as John drunkenly crashing into my car, killing me? Should the court overlook John’s killing me in the car crash based on the kidney-sharing principle? Because that notion is as illogical and unconnected as someone equating raping their own child with a woman’s right to choose what happens to her own body.
Most of John’s argument is not logical. Although, I would be willing to debate limiting abortion to 6 weeks after conception, to match the legal definition of life with death. Still, the fetus is requiring the woman’s body to live, so I am likely going to stick with a cut-off of, whatever number of weeks science can keep a baby alive without use of the mother’s body.
Now, if that definition was accepted, and once those weeks are reached (around 23 weeks), I do believe the woman can then be compelled to carry the child to term, because once the fetus has claimed the right to life independent of woman’s body, the future child is entitled to the best possible health in life.
While it is true that the baby needs the mother to live to be born, the baby can’t survive on its own without the mother and hopefully the father caring for it. Without care (which the law commands) the baby will die if you don’t feed it, cloth it and house it. The law can and does mandate that care.
My argument is very logical, abortion is the ultimate violence against an innocent unborn baby that results in a horrible dismembering death. If I raped a woman, the effect on her would be terrible, but she is alive, but I commmitted violence against her which the law mandates punishment for me.
An eagle egg can’t survive without the mother eagle keeping it warm and there is a $10,000 fine for destroying that non-viable eagle egg. My arguments are logical, you just choose to obfuscate with an argument that is not an apple for apple illustration.
A woman’s choice rightly should be whether or not she keeps the baby after birth. No matter the circumstance, an abortion is a killing of an innocent child for convenience or avoiding inconvenience. We are entitled to LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. Our Bill of Rights states that we are endowed by our Creator to Life, not life if it is convenient for the mother.
The problem with defining viability is that it is constantly moving yardstick depending upon our neo natal science. We are now routinely saving babies at 20 weeks after conception. Before our pioneering neonatal science it used to be 32 weeks then 28 weeks and now 20 weeks.
I believe in a woman’s right to choose to give up the baby for adoption. We now have no question laws for dropping a baby off at a hospital or fire station. No woman should be required to keep a baby, neither should she be allowed to kill it at her whim either.
Ummm, John, how can I put this succinctly…
You’re a man. You have no clue what goes on in a woman’s body, mind, or heart. And you shouldn’t assume to, either. Neither should I.
All of this fundamentalist claptrap you’re bloviating about while referencing America illustrates your narrow-banded thinking. While I MOST WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree with you and your ilk, I respect your right to have your opinion.
What you should believe in and respect is a woman’s fundamental right to make a decision – whether you’re in agreement with it or not.
It took courage to share this story and Penelope, you have my utmost respect. And a bookmarked web site.
How refreshing!