I've spent three years writing about how graduate school is a waste of time and money (yes, business school and law school too). So now when radio and TV producers need someone to bitch about graduate school, they call me.
Here I am on NPR today. I don't usually post my interviews, but this one is notable because I completely lost patience for people still defending grad school. It's so clear, even to defenders of grad school, that grad school is a bad financial decision, that this guy has resorted to saying that you need to go to grad school to be a good person. Of course, I went nuts on him.
I think the thing that is pushing me over the edge with graduate school is that people who are thinking straight about schooling are not even considering graduate school. These people are debating if college is a rip off (here's a great discussion in New York magazine with James Altucher, a venture capitalist in NYC) And people are even debating if high school is useless (here's a great post by Lisa Nielsen who is with the NYC Department of Education). And anyway, I'm losing interest in the debate about grad school because I'm convinced that the future belongs to home schoolers because they are self-learners.
Also, for those of you who keep telling me that there are some fields you absolutely have to have a degree for, check out the song 99 Problems by Jay-Z. The song includes great legal advice about Miranda rights, racial profiling and search warrants, even though he doesn't have a law degree or a creative writing certificate to prove his poetic talents.
Click this link for an attorney's analysis of the advice in the song, but here's an excerpt, attorney's advice in italics:
The year is ninety-four, in my trunk is raw
In my rear-view mirror is the motherfuckin' law
Got two choices y'all, pull over the car or (hmm)
bounce on the Devil, put the pedal to the floor
And I ain't tryin' to see no highway chase with Jake
Plus I got a few dollars, I can fight the case
(Not running from the police seems like excellent advice.)
So I, pull over to the side of the road
"Son, do you know why I'm stoppin' you for?"
Cause I'm young and I'm black and my hat's real low
Or do I look like a mindreader, sir? I don't know
Am I under arrest or should I guess some more?
(In general, not volunteering information at a traffic stop is great advice.)
In the comments section on the NPR site, people complain that I'm bitter and angry and offer no alternative to graduate school.
Here's the alternative: Admit that adult life is scary because there is no clear path to success. Grad school is not a quick fix for the fears of adulthood. Instead, be grateful for the chance to be lost ' it means you're living your own life, because no one can make choices in the exact same way you can, whether they are right or wrong.
So all there is for adult life is you, following your nose, trying to figure out what brings you joy. Each time I see someone who has done that, in some little way, I feel relief and hope for myself.
Image from Austin Kleon.
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So what do you suggest one do if one wants to be a doctor or independent scientist? The MD or Ph.D. track seems to be the only option I am aware of. I don't know of any medical technology or pharma startups, or even green energy startups that weren't started by Ph.D.'s. So I think you need to draw a distinction between the "hard" sciences, which tend to actually PAY you to go (I made $22,000 a year my last year in grad school at the end of my Ph.D. in Biochemistry…NSF fellowship, and that was 6 years ago) versus programs you have to actually pay FOR.
Anyway, just a thought. And I generally agree that any masters program in the humanities or most business programs and probably law school are not worth the time or effort. But, again, if you have the science and math aptitude, you get a free ride and decent cost of living (for a college town, at least.)
Posted by Alex on May 9, 2011 at 5:31 pm | permalink |
There are examples of when graduate school is a good idea. But for the most part, the economics of graduate school – in terms of both time and money — are not set up for the realities of the current workforce.
The percentage of science Phd's who actually get to run their own experiments after getting the degree is so small that there is talk in the science community of not giving out so many degrees.
Which means that it's a similar problem to the humanities – -you sign your life away for five years and then cannot get the job you went to school to get.
Medicine is another problem. Most people will change careers five times in their life. The loans from medical school lock you into the profession for much longer than that even though there is no evidence that practicing medicine is something people want to do longer than any other engaging, rewarding career.
The idea that you would want a free ride in a college town – that's the problem right there. Grad school so often is not a decision of what to do with your adult life. It's generally a decision of how to put off adult life.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on May 9, 2011 at 5:37 pm | permalink |
I like your blog and I think you have a very interesting perspective on graduate school. I respect it and it is very rational.
But what about going to graduate school for more sentimental reasons? Because you feel like you can do more of a difference with that extra specialty in a topic? What about people that love to learn and study their subject more, and are not interested in going out into the work force? I am totally in that boat! Why should people work if learning is so much more uplifting and they are getting it is paid for? (though unfortunately mine isn't)
And yes it is possible to get a good job without having that extra formal education, but not everyone has entreprenurial skills and would not even know how to begin finding themselves without a catalyst. Graduate school not only educates you, but gives you the chance to do your own supervised research project and gives you confidence in your abilities and analytical skills. This generation needs those baby steps to get them started, and I'm not going to deny that I am a part of this generation.
Sounds a bit pathetic, but I that graduate school serves an important funcion by coaxing us to reach our potential.
Posted by Niki on May 10, 2011 at 3:21 pm | permalink |
"The percentage of science Phd's who actually get to run their own experiments after getting the degree is so small that there is talk in the science community of not giving out so many degrees."
Here's what grad school (a whole Ph.D.!) taught me. That percentage is not the only one of interest. What's the percentage of non Ph.D.'s who are actually running their own experiments? The percentage in your direction can still be quite low and the decision to get a Ph.D. rational, so long as the percentage in the reverse direction is higher.
Posted by Deckin on May 11, 2011 at 7:47 am | permalink |
I went to graduate school so I could get a job in the field I'm interested in (Bioinformatics), a field where there's enough people with degrees in the field that hiring managers simply aren't looking at people who don't have the piece of paper saying they can do the work. I got the degree, then I got a job at a world class research institute doing exactly the work I went to grad school to get to do.
Did I go for a Ph. D.? Hell no. My field is in engineering, and I want to write software, not do research, so an MS is all I needed. But in order to get a job in the field, I absolutely had to have that peice of paper saying that I could do the work, the mere fact that I COULD do the work was not sufficient to get me even interviews in the field.
If you want to "improve your life", study on your own. If you want to get paid to work in the field, you're going to need that piece of paper, be it a J. D., an M. D., a Ph. D, (required in "sciences", or to have a hope of getting paid to do real research), or an M. S. Is that a good thing? No. Credentialitis is a very bad thing. But I can't change it, and unless you can repeal every job discrimination law out there, and end all hiring discrimination lawsuits, you can't change it either.
Because HR departments don't care about being fair, they care about not being sued. And requiring pieces of paper, rather than allowing hiring managers to use their judgment, is a fairly effective way of not getting sued.
Posted by Greg D on May 11, 2011 at 10:23 am | permalink |
I agree with Alex here.
For medical schools: maybe want to change career 5 times, and maybe it is a bad investment – but there has to be doctors, and they have to be well educated. You can't learn medicine by being street smart. You can't be a good scientist either without a long education.
True, not everybody PHD will use their education in the expected way, but it is not only about what pays off for individuals. The capacity for vital scientific progress and technological innovation over the long term depends on enough people being highly educated and willing to spend heaps of time without certainty that it will ever pay off. Who and how many science PHDs get to do independent research depends on somewhat unpredictable factors like the economic conditions at the time they finish, the commercial potential of their area of interest, luck, and of course talent and personality. Trying to balance supply and demand of highly educated people is short sighted, because cutting the numbers may reduce the capacity in vital areas which inherently don't pay off in the short term and where break through insights often can not be predicted (like medicine, astronomy, math, and even social research).
Posted by Anna on August 26, 2011 at 8:36 am | permalink |
I don't think anyone is arguing about the degrees you need to practice in a specific field – if and when you actually do want to practice in those fields. That's not what Penelope is saying, I don't think. It's all the people with law degrees who aren't lawyers or business school degrees who would have the job they have without one. If you want to be a scientist, you often start being one before you have your degree anyway (doing research is, after all, how you get that kind of degree) and, speaking from experience, if you are paying someone else to let you do research (as a student) it doesn't take long to realise that that road is not one you want to be on longer than you have to – far better to get someone to pay you to do the research. Of course, those are more competitive, so if you can't get one, is it worth it to pay for a masters en route to a PhD? Probably only if you want to end up with either a career in research or a specific career in that field that *requires* the degree, like for licensure.
I need my masters degree to be a licensed counselor, and I think the career will be more than rewarding enough (not just financially) to make up for the rip-off I'm tolerating now. I hope I'm right, but theres no way around the fact that I am paying too much to do research that has my university's name on it in the end anyway, just underneath mine.
Posted by sarahayars on May 9, 2011 at 5:44 pm | permalink |
thanx Alex for your defensee re the MD/PhD track.
In related health care, I am a nurse practitioner, and in order to be a nurse at the level I wanted, I HAD to get an MSN-um, that's GRAD SCHOOL. I worked part time to full time while I got that degree, and have now been an NP for over 15 years. I LOVE it, never regretted it and oh, I also doubled my salary.
But I know that doesn't count, Penelope, because it's not business related. Phhhhhhblt! to that!
Posted by poppygirl on May 9, 2011 at 8:41 pm | permalink |
There's no such thing as an "independent" scientist.
Posted by Kim du Toit on May 11, 2011 at 11:00 am | permalink |
Are you sure? What about Dr. Horrible?
Posted by KateNonymous on May 11, 2011 at 11:05 am | permalink |
Alex, you're not aware of the Ph.D. glut that has made having a Ph.D. useless, unless you want to teach college with no likely success at getting tenure or making a good living, particularly if you're going into the hard sciences.
Although I favor Penelope's position in considering college relatively useless (relative to what? see below), I do not consider the solution to be admitting that adult life is scary because there is no clear path to success. The path to success is to exploit the opportunity of serving a neighbor, and that is what business is all about!
It's true that it takes having an M.A. to work at a junior college and a Ph.D. to get a university position. But there is a 40-year glut of Ph.Ds. The Ph.D. prestige factor is a lure until you have one in your hand and cannot find work with it. That's why I dropped out of my Ph.D. program.
If you want the facts about this glut, read this: http://nyti.ms/PhD-Glut
What is preferable to grad school? What is better? Starting your own business quickly! The moment you graduate, start one. Start one before you graduate. That's even better. Starting your own business is entry level employment worth doing. It provides the serious level work experience so many graduates today lack.
In fact, if you consider working as an intern for peanuts or for free, then it makes no sense to avoid being entrepreneurial, because you can accomplish as much if not far more than by playing the throw-away intern.
Posted by Arturo F Munoz on May 19, 2011 at 6:43 pm | permalink |
The link to the lawyer's take on the lyrics goes to the wikipedia page for search warrants. The right link is this:http://www.quora.com/How-valid-is-the-implied-legal-advice-in-Jay-Zs-99-Problems
I am studying abroad with a group of juniors who are getting ready to take the GRE and apply to grad school. Most of them want to go into research and/or academia, but those may be the only valid reasons.
Posted by CL on May 9, 2011 at 5:46 pm | permalink |
Oh. Thanks. I hate when I do that. I loved the link so much, and then I got it wrong. Grrr. I hope everyone clicks. It was so so so fun to see legal commentary on a Jay-Z song!
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on May 9, 2011 at 7:34 pm | permalink |
What if I want to go to grad school just for the sake of it? I love learning, I loved being in school and I thrived in that environment. I am aware a Masters in my field (kinesiology/sport management)won't do much for my job prospects (in comparison to the value spent) but I feel the investment (not nearly as significant as American universities) is worth it for my own satisfaction and life experience…
Posted by Caz on May 9, 2011 at 5:51 pm | permalink |
Well, are you really going to get out of it more than you could if you put it to yourself to learn it on your own?
I've been thinking about going for a masters in math, because I find myself continually running into spots where a stronger math background would help, but now that I think about it, I have the Princeton Math Companion, access to the US library system, the Internet, and email.
The PMC is the overview of math. The US library system is a massive dispenser of top flight specialist books and periodicals, written by the very people who developed the fields of math I'm interested in. The internet and email can connect me with people who know more about math than I do, and enjoy talking about it, and enjoy challenging math problems.
The only thing I won't get is the official stamped degree, but my company doesn't give big raises for math majors, and if I can use it to solve problems that I couldn't before, or even put a couple of patents under my belt, I'll still get the big bucks from it.
The mind-blowing thing about the internet age is that knowledge is free. All you have to do is reach out your hand and take it.
Posted by Voyager on May 11, 2011 at 12:32 am | permalink |
Yes, because in grad school there are deliverables and external review. I continue to read and think, but I don't fool myself that it's just like the process I went through to get my M.A.
Posted by KateNonymous on May 11, 2011 at 11:07 am | permalink |
How do you feel about an MBA program if your employer is willing to subsidize it? I can get an MBA (with work's help) for $12000 from a decent school. I'm in my late twenties with a paid off undergraduate degree in chemistry from a liberal arts school. I was told that the only way to get a management position with my company was with an advanced degree.
Posted by Justine on May 9, 2011 at 5:53 pm | permalink |
Love the part where you mention that lawyers have the highest suicide rate. LOL! Loved listening to it, I'm forwarding to a friend who's in the process of getting ready to start grad school within the year. Thanks for posting.
Posted by Ashley Estrada on May 9, 2011 at 5:55 pm | permalink |
follow your joy! best advice my Grandma gave me
Posted by Catherine Butski on May 9, 2011 at 5:59 pm | permalink |
I posted in support of what you said … I have a degree now, and it cost me a lot, and it was all things i could have taught myself, and financially I would have been better off without. But I'm not anti-education. I've said this to coworkers before and they just don't get it. I can't wait until the degree is paid off …
Posted by Jen on May 9, 2011 at 6:03 pm | permalink |
Vermont allows 4-year long clerkship with attorney in lieu of law school. You still must pass bar exam. (but does require a 4-year degree to commence clerkship)
I'd be much more confident having someone who actually practiced law for 4 years represent me than a new law school grad….who are more than useless…they have few practical skills but tremendous expectations.
Law school does not teach you how to draft a will or title search…. Or collect a fee. It does teach the Rule Against Perpetuities.
Posted by Mr. Mae (owned by Sallie) on May 11, 2011 at 3:33 am | permalink |
I have been through graduate school, and am still considering law school because there are things I want to do that require having a J.D. I want to be able to teach parents about the law regarding IEPs and ADA. I realize I will probably have to start my own business because people are not hiring lawyers much in the large companies, but I am already making connections with professionals while I'm a paralegal; connections with attorneys in a suburb at a law office, and they are well connected. Additionally, I am looking for the best deal on law school so financially it won't be as much of a problem. I believe helping the parents out there who don't get help with their children with special needs is a problem the Lord has called me to do. That is why I have the MA degree. Because the Lord called me to help people. It was from a Seminary and even though I was never on a church staff, I use many of the skills I learned in what I do today.
I know you are warning people not to go get those extra degrees unless they actually need them.
BTW, you have inspired me to write, and I have been published. I love your blog, and read it often.
So, your advice is not wasted… I just have some "living to do." (Bye Bye Birdie) Specific goals which cannot be done unless I want to get charged with Unauthorized Practice. I want to be a Parent Education Center Director. I want to be unafraid to speak my mind and talk about legal matters that can change lives.
Posted by Libby McCullough on May 9, 2011 at 6:05 pm | permalink |
Libby, nothing I learned in paralegal school or law school taught me to navigate IEP Meetings for my kid. What you do need are critical thinking skills. However that said, if your passion is to be a lawyer, you can only do that by attending law school. Maybe the key is to not attend the really overpriced private schools.
Posted by David Forde on May 9, 2011 at 6:33 pm | permalink |
I'll second that, David. My dad has a Harvard law degree and he specializes in special needs law and his law degree does not help us with my son's IEP either. The school systems simply do not have enough money to give kids what they are legally entitled to for special needs in the schools.
This means that the laws are irrelevant. What you need is negotiation skills for the school district, people skills for the teachers, and self-control to deal with your kid.
You don't get any of that from graduate school.
I wish ten million times over that I could get a law degree to make my life as a parent of a special needs kid easier. I would get ten law degrees.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on May 9, 2011 at 8:14 pm | permalink |
Penelope, I really enjoy your advice.
How do you feel about the M7 business schools? Is it worth the debt if you can get into a top graduate school?
Posted by Sarah on May 9, 2011 at 6:11 pm | permalink |
I don't regret going to grad school (even when I pay my student loan bills), but I am very, very glad I waited until I'd tried on three careers and had developed a strong sense of what I wanted to do, why I wanted to do it, and whether grad school mattered for my particular goals. It makes me nuts to watch the new college graduates I know going on to a grad program because it's the next thing to do or because they don't know what else to do.
Posted by Hilary on May 9, 2011 at 6:16 pm | permalink |
Grad students are the 'underpaid labor' who do a lot of grunt work for the Profs and the Univs (in science ad engg anyway). So, if the Univs shut down or cut back on the degrees, they are shooting themselves in the foot. and, there is still enough demand from overseas that things aren't going to change soon.
Am I glad I have a PhD.? Yes. No way NASA was going to hire this Intl student in the 90s with just a B.S.
Posted by delhiboy on May 9, 2011 at 6:20 pm | permalink |
Penelope–I loved it! You've got some spitfire and I'm so glad you broke it down like that. Really, took it to another level. Unfortunately he was talking about his experience 25 years ago which is exactly the problem since today's kids are getting advice from ppl who aren't necessarily tapped into the reality of today.
Posted by Hillary on May 9, 2011 at 6:21 pm | permalink |
And isn't that the current difficulty? Right now, the people doing the hiring are still mostly people who grew up and established themselves the old way…people with graduate degrees are very likely to think that only someone with a graduate degree can do their job.
The question, then, is will employers eventually cycle so that the new guard appreciates skills over degrees? (In which case we should be patient and not jump into student loans) Or will it just cycle in more people who only value degrees (in which case we should probably still give consideration to getting the degree)?
Actually, I guess the Penelope answer would be to forget all that and do what you want. I think I'm good with that advice, too.
Posted by Dave on May 10, 2011 at 12:57 pm | permalink |
I'm confused–you said that people can learn outside of school but also described farmers who have been out of school longer as being financially disadvantaged (I'm guessing because they stop learning outside of school)? Your argument doesn't hold up.
Posted by Emily on May 9, 2011 at 6:31 pm | permalink |
You can choose to learn out of school or not. Most people who are constantly learning are also constantly changing. So a single, lifelong career is not good for lifelong learners.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on May 9, 2011 at 7:36 pm | permalink |
Not necessarily true. Most fields in which the person holds a license to practice require continuing education, and, certainly in my field (psychology) one must be abreast of new information and latest techniques constantly.
Posted by Danielle on May 9, 2011 at 9:55 pm | permalink |
That may be true, but I'd rather be temporarily unemployed than $120K in debt with no real advantage over the competition. A grad degree is only as good as the subject your degree is in…and in the city I work…I see too many people picking the wrong grad degrees and showing very little for it after graduation.
Posted by Interestinme on May 10, 2011 at 9:01 am | permalink |
I would love a study – and perhaps there is one – of graduate school applicants or first year grad students – asking specifically why they are in grad school. I would bet dollars to donuts it is – at best – tied to their belief that it will improve their job opportunities…especially these days…where tons of college grads can't get jobs or can't get the jobs that they want to talk about at parties. It sounds much better to say 'I'm in grad school'. Plus it's easier for their parents to tell their friends 'Sarah is in graduate school', then to say Sarah can't get a job or Sarah is waiting tables.
Just sayin'….
Amy
Posted by Amy Parmenter on May 9, 2011 at 6:33 pm | permalink |
We are all self-learners. No teacher, whether it's a parent or a professor, can put information in your head. The only way to learn something is to practice it. The easiest way to get nothing out of a class is to not do the homework.
Given that humans learn by practice the primary factor that determines how good you will get at something is how motivated you are to keep practicing it. The value of a good teacher is that he or she can instill intrinsic motivation in students who then want learn for its own sake. Think back to your favorite teachers, I'll bet you worked extra hard on the assignments that they set.
Given how hard it is to teach your own kids I can easily believe that parents who home school have a high level of motivation but that isn't necessarily going to translate to their students. Plus even if it does, the percentage of the population that home schools is very small.
Posted by Andrew on May 9, 2011 at 6:41 pm | permalink |
We SHOULD all be lifelong learners. Many are not.
There are people who have 20 years of experience with all the wisdom and judgment that implies.
And there are people who have the same year of experience . . . 20 times.
Posted by Pishtush on May 10, 2011 at 4:13 am | permalink |
Great comment!
Posted by liz on May 10, 2011 at 8:51 am | permalink |
I couldn't agree more. I don't even think an undergraduate degree is the answer for everyone. Why should it be? Many, many good, reputable jobs don't require a BA/BS. And an advanced degree certainly shouldn't be an entitlement issue. If you choose to pursue an advanced degree, you figure out how to pay for it. That's that. Of course, I'm writing as one who has a BA/MS. But I don't apologize for that. I didn't waste any time or money in getting to my career. My undergraduate degree is in communication disorders and my master's is in speech-language pathology. That is the entry-level requirement for my job. That's it; no negotiation. Master's (or in progress on your Master's) or nothing. I knew what I wanted to do and I got the degree, certification, license, and credential necessary to do it. I have to admit, I'm tired of students complaining about havin to pay for college. Why shouldn't they? My tax dollars shouldn't go toward someone's educational exploration.
Posted by MarieP on May 9, 2011 at 6:45 pm | permalink |
You make so many great points in the interview than the other guy, who basically just repeats the same point (that you should go to graduate school with the aim of personal development and not to increase your value in the workforce). And his point about listening… wow…was that a dig? Anyway, I think his (one) point to some extent is valid, but two-dimensional and for the majority of the population grossly impractical, largely because of how programs are priced. The education system in the States is broken–high school, college, and graduate school. It is stuck, and it desperately needs entrepreneurial efforts and modern day solutions. It makes it quite exciting to be working in elearning right now, because there are so many directions to go in and improvements to be made. Maybe the alternative to graduate school is a startup that does the work of graduate school but calls itself a business and caters to the laws of supply and demand, because like you say these programs are all businesses anyway so it's probably about time we just drop the pretense.
I have my Masters, and I did it for exactly the reason you say not to over and over again: because I didn't know what else to do. I love being in school and would spend my life getting degrees if that was practical. But I was in a great position to do my MA– I did all my higher ed in the UK, where there is a set rate for higher ed(although this is increasing) and where there are no bullshit general education classes in the first year which means most undergraduate degrees take only three years, and Masters programs are only one, which allowed me to do it all in four years. Also, I was at the time caught between two countries, and had some big decisions to make. Doing my MA bought me time (which I enjoyed), and by the time I'd finished I knew I didn't want to be in England anymore and I didn't want to be with my then-boyfriend anymore and I didn't want to do English anymore. So it was about real-life experience, too, for me, and all the while I got to talk about Byron with people who get really excited about Romantic poetry, and actually those people are rather harder to find outside of university than you would expect.
Posted by Harriet May on May 9, 2011 at 6:45 pm | permalink |
You made some really great points today about career trajectory these days. I am looking at this from the "been there, done that" stage of life and you are right about how much things have changed. Thanks for pointing out that your education doesn't pay off in increased income past ten years. I could have used that information 20 years ago, lol.
I can't believe how many people in the comments said you sound angry or strident. I didn't think so at all. But then, People have said I sound strident or irritating too so maybe it's our style. Personally, I like that you have an emotional voice rather than the typical arrogance of most expert males when interviewed. One could say that you sound a bit defensive in your posture, but since I read your blog I know that you DO argue your point, and often! So what?
Loved the interview.
Posted by Diana on May 9, 2011 at 6:46 pm | permalink |
I'm a clinical neuropsychologist, absolutely need my Ph.D. to do this job, and love my job, have no plan to leave ever. It's my dream job actually, personally fulfilling, highly paid (I have stable salary for my work on staff at a hospital), and I only work 40 hours per week. Top that!
Posted by Danielle on May 9, 2011 at 6:47 pm | permalink |
No problem. Today I put on some comfortable clothes and walked up a set of stairs to my desk. I had no new client requests so I read for a while and had breakfast. Since I'm pregnant I decided to have a mid-morning nap. Around noon I took the dog for a meandering walk to the park and returned home an hour later to START work. I worked for a couple of hours before I began doing some personal research online which is how I discovered this blog for the first time. It's now 3:30 in the afternoon and I think I'll stop working for today and do some tasks around the house.
If I worked 40 hours per week (plus commuting time!) I'd make crazy money – but I'd rather spend time outside and study topics that interest me like science, psychology, finance, gardening, etc. Plus, I don't have to commute to work, make a lunch (or buy one), wear crappy office clothes, sit in meetings, tolerate lousy co-workers or answer to anyone for how I spend my work day.
The best part about my "career": no degree or formal education is required (unless you include actual life skills).
The life of an entrepreneur is sweet – too bad most people don't have the balls for it – because the long-term rewards are incredible. The reason so many people defend their need for letters after their name is because they crave the illusion of security that is working for someone else.
You can be and do anything you desire and you don't need credentials for that.
Posted by Laurie on May 11, 2011 at 2:57 pm | permalink |
You're right, grad school is a bad investment, there's not enough jobs around for those freshly minted Ph.D, and those who choose to pursue a career in academia have a bright future with 60+ hour weeks on temp jobs begging for money so that they can do what they are trained to do (research). Once they get close to 40, they are up for the decision of tenure, which has a very real risk of getting fired. The career options for a newly turned 40 year old former associate professor that just got a "academic waste" stamp on his forehead are, how shall we put it – limited. Industry finds him overqualified, and academic positions are out of the question.
So far we agree with each other. I'll let your prediction of the future belonging to self learners pass as well, you might be right on that one. Going from there to claiming that grad school is irrelevant/useless is a very big step though. There's plenty of people around who are able to read existing knowledge, and even tweak/adjust it for their particular settings. There's something fundamentally different about research and producing new knowledge though, because if there wasn't, the undergraduate GPA would be a perfect predictor of success in grad school. Grad school is definitely not a requirement for building a successful company, but certain kinds of companies can not be built without solid research foundations (take Intel as an example, they have heaps of researchers on their payroll, and it's because they believe they need them. They vacuumed the entire market from formal verification people in the mid 90's when the $500 million Pentium fdiv bug happened).
With that said, grad school is still a really bad choice financially. If we truly believe that research is the way forward to prosperity for our nation, it seems far too important to leave the direction in the hands of the few volunteers who are too stubborn for their own good.
Posted by Sam on May 9, 2011 at 6:51 pm | permalink |
Hmm, my comment isn't showing up here. I wonder if there's something wrong with my log-in?
Posted by Diana on May 9, 2011 at 7:01 pm | permalink |
That worked so here is my comment again…
You made some really great points today about career trajectory these days. I am looking at this from the "been there, done that" stage of life and you are right about how much things have changed. Thanks for pointing out that your education doesn't pay off in increased income past ten years. I could have used that information 20 years ago, lol.
I can't believe how many people in the comments said you sound angry or strident. I didn't think so at all. But then, People have said I sound strident or irritating too so maybe it's our style. Personally, I like that you have an emotional voice rather than the typical arrogance of most expert males when interviewed. One could say that you sound a bit defensive in your posture, but since I read your blog I know that you DO argue your point, and often! So what?
Loved the interview.
Posted by Diana on May 9, 2011 at 7:03 pm | permalink |
The only people who care about master's degrees are the people in HR departments. They use them as a way to avoid having to figure out who actually knows the material in their field.
An Ivy League professor told me that he is increasingly hearing from alums that a master's degree is a red flag that the candidate may be flaky and insecure. If they had the chops and confidence to get a job out of college, they would have. "Love of learning" is considered flaky.
That said, there are certain masters where the program is essentially licensing prep: Law, Civil Engineering, Social Work. If you know those fields, have worked in those fields (for at least a year) and the companies you've worked for say you will do well in the field if you get the masters, then go for it.
And law schools where the grads are intending to do state level work should go to a two year program. With maybe a third year work/learn program for certain specialties like family law.
Posted by mo on May 9, 2011 at 7:02 pm | permalink |
Penelope, while I would concede that grad school is over-rated, I think it is unreasonable to call it a waste of time in the general sense. Two examples…
1. Aside from a medical savant, I would strongly suggest that many years of schooling (grad school and beyond) are required for most, if not all, doctors. A high school aged person wouldn't be prepared for med school much less residency or, gasp, practice.
2. While Jay-Z's lyrics are amusing, I suspect you wouldn't want him defending you in a trial. And the commentary totally ignores that the person stopped was rather disrespectful to the officer. While not volunteering information is good advice, being disrespectful is horrible advise.
I think the real take-away from your articles is that people should really consider why they are going to graduate school and whether that enhances their opportunities for future success. The same can be said for attending university at all… or even high school. The recipe for success has drastically changed in my lifetime and I'm sure it will continue to change. It reminds me of what my mother would say when I'd ask "Ma, how long do I cook this for" and she would answer… "until it is done."
Cheers.
Posted by Mitch on May 9, 2011 at 7:18 pm | permalink |
If it were a jury trial, I would definitely want Jay-Z defending me rather than a lawyer! Who do you think is more likely to get me acquitted?
Posted by Kevin on May 11, 2011 at 9:57 am | permalink |
I'm in graduate school right now and I love it. But I'm not in it for a piece of paper and a magic ticket into the workforce — the job I'll get after I graduate will pay me far less than the one I have right now. I'm in it because I want to learn and because learning from people who know a lot more than I do and have been teaching other people for years is actually not an inefficient mechanism. When I pay my tuition, I know that I could use the same money to a) take a fancy vacation (although not too fancy), b) put a down-payment on a new car (although a really low-end car), c) or — I don't know, eat a lot of fancy dinners — although frankly not even too many of those. I'm paying to learn because I value learning. I think it's as worthwhile an investment as — oh, say, flying to LA to get my hair done (never) or paying to have someone pluck my eyebrows (never) — which is to say, I don't think of it as an investment, I think of it as a pleasure and a reward.
Posted by Sydnew on May 9, 2011 at 7:36 pm | permalink |
The last two paragraphs you've written in this post are probably the best things you've ever written, in terms of it "speaking" to me. Thanks!
Posted by Richard on May 9, 2011 at 7:47 pm | permalink |
I wish they would get rid of undergraduate college and replace it only with grad school. High school should just teach decent writing, reading, verbal skills and maybe Microsoft Office to equip you for most entry level jobs. Then us flighty Gen Y-ers could hop around to multiple jobs until they finally found one worth educating themselves for. Younger people are not capable of making financial decisions until they have actually had personal experience living on their own and managing their own budget.
BTW when you basically told that guy his art sucks, it was hilarious. Too bad tough love doesn't go over so well with many people…
Posted by Alice D. on May 9, 2011 at 7:48 pm | permalink |
If companies could still give IQ or aptitude tests, this would be workable. Bright HS graduates used to go to work for big companies and get on-the-job training all the time.
But now testing is mostly illegal, though govt and military have their own exceptions to the rule of course.
Posted by carol on May 11, 2011 at 11:43 am | permalink |
Education is great, if you apply yourself to the career path you choose. Having an education doesn't mean you have gained understanding in a topic, only that you have endurance to last through 4 or so years of keg parties.
My educational background is actually in Art. I had enough credits to graduate high school after grade 10. All I had to complete for the last 2 years of high school was 2 years of English and a year of Science. The rest of the time I took 2 art classes in my high school and half the day for my junior and senior year at another school for Graphic Design and Illustration (book covers, painting, etc).
I went to college for Art. It was there that I learned that there were much better artists out there than me. So what did I do? I went back to my other hobby which was computers.
At the time DOS was the PC operating system of choice and Windows was just on the horizon.
20 years later.. I make a shit ton of money making company networks operate smoothly. I have no formal education. Sure art helps me visualize the conceptual structure but I can tell you first hand that education has nothing to do with my success.
Passion and purpose are the only things that really matter.
-Jeremy
Posted by Jeremy on May 9, 2011 at 8:08 pm | permalink |
I have a BS, doctorate, and master's. I agree with you. My career requires an advanced degree and the pay & schedule is awesome. I wish I were not locked in, though. If I had it to do over, I would NOT take student loans and take a lower paying job for the "life freedom." But the grass is always greener….
Posted by Christena on May 9, 2011 at 8:12 pm | permalink |
I know I'm stepping in it, so here goes:
You really need to distinguish between "graduate school" and "trade school". Law school, business school, medical school and rabbinical school are trade schools. They seek to impart the knowledge someone believes is a prerequisite to learning to perform a job. You don't learn to be a doctor in medical school.
In graduate school (i.e. a phd program) you learn how to produce new knowledge, only after you've learned the skills to perform a job. I'm not saying that skill cannot be learned on your own. I'm also not saying schools do a particularly good job of teaching research skills. However, it is the case that doing it once successfully has information value for the consumer, be it your mother or your employer. In the finance world, you don't hire ABDs do do research because your probability of getting output is much lower. As others point out, you hire MD/PhDs to perform biotech research because the probability of any output is higher.
With that said, degrees serve as signals of an individual's position in the distribution of "smarts". (I'm using that term loosely…not book smarts, not just people smarts.)
If you are a very smart outlier, you don't need a third party verification signal: It's obvious. However, if you're a dolt, or even slightly above average, it could be very valuable to wave a Latin-infused sheepskin…so that the average person in the world will think you are slightly above average.
The "problem" here, of course, is that everyone thinks they're above average, so they think they don't need the signalling mechanism, when in fact they aren't that good!
(And, yes, I have a very nice third party signal that says I am at least a little bit to the right on the distribution.)
Posted by Marc Roston on May 9, 2011 at 8:26 pm | permalink |
Marc – hopefully your mother and/or a potential future employer will understand your acquired signals to be able to identify an appropriate position for you to produce the desired higher output your mother (at least) expects!
Posted by Erik on May 9, 2011 at 8:44 pm | permalink |
Have you met Marc's mother?
Posted by Odysseus on May 9, 2011 at 8:47 pm | permalink |
What I love here is that my brothers (Marc and Erik) can comment on my post about graduate degrees and business and still digress to talk about my mom. (Also, I feel compelled to say that Erik is not really his name but a pseudonym. Though who am I to make rules about my siblings writing under their real name when I am on my fourth name?)
This string does, of course, touch on Amy's comment above, about how parents love to say their kid is in graduate school.
My parents love to say they have one kid with an economics Phd and one kid with (almost there) a chemistry Phd. And, I have to say that I have never heard my parents kvelling that they raised a kid to be a blogger.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on May 9, 2011 at 8:59 pm | permalink |
@Marc – I think I met her once. A piece of work.
@Penelope – Luckily she is too busy scouring American Express job postings in sub-saharan Africa to have time to read this far down in your comment section!
Posted by Erik on May 9, 2011 at 9:06 pm | permalink |
I sense an unspoken fear that a degree is not good enough anymore. As an honorary graduate of the "University of Saigon" I despise such "mission creep." Conquer fear, then take responsibility to get on your alma mater's board of governors so you can ensure a degree is demanding enough to be good enough. The degrees in Canada show that quality is possible.
Posted by Sean Crawford on May 9, 2011 at 8:35 pm | permalink |
I think many have a legitimate need to go to graduate school, but many become professional students and use it as a avoidance-of- living-life mechanism.
Riley
Posted by Riley Harrison on May 9, 2011 at 9:53 pm | permalink |
I really enjoy your column.
I'm in grad school–I'm actually about to fail my comprehensive exams (no really, I already failed them once), and I've got student loans up the wazoo.
But I also went to grad school for the challenge. My career goals: have a job where I get to wear jeans and proofread/edit. If I can sleep in, too, it's a dream job. I went to grad school knowing my goal wasn't to prepare for a career or be able to pay off my loans. I just wanted to see if I could do it. Oh, I admit to the stupidity of some of this, but I've got to tell you, even with likelihood of failing these exams again, it was worth it. In fact, I'll probably do another Master's either after the Ph.D. or as soon as I fail these exams.
But I'm doing it 'cause I love school, and I'm actually employable enough to pay off the loans, no problem.
So, I'm going to grad school, but it's because I love going to grad school. It is the ends not the means, I suppose. I suspect in this scenario, you'd be okay with grad school. I'm just enjoying being an overeducated administrative-type. It's my thing. Don't even have the grad degrees (finished or in progress) on my resume. Don't need 'em. I do collages. I go to grad school. I like movies. They're all hobbies.
Can you believe that all that led to this: homeschoolers ARE going to rule the world. They are regularly my best students when I teach as a grad student or an adjunct. The critical thinking skills, which frankly, are almost the only thing worth practicing/coaching (probably not teaching) are so much higher among that population of students. Breath of fresh air to teach those students. In fact, my goal was always to try to get my other students to the level of THINKING that the homeschoolers walked in the door with, and sometimes, maybe I'd get a glimmer here and there.
I decided not to become a mother (even recently had myself sterilized) 'cause I knew I wouldn't want to devote the REAL time needed to do it right (i.e. homeschooling), so I wasn't going to do it. I wish more parents would stop letting their kids hop from grade to grade. Send 'em to school, but my gawd, engage them in the learning they should be doing in school when they're home and willing to think for themselves outside the gaze of their equally-confused and herded peers.
Keep up the anti-grad school voice. If more people were demonstrating critical thinking skills, employers wouldn't brush off the lack of them by allowing people to substitute independent idea-making with a degree.
Posted by Tara on May 9, 2011 at 9:59 pm | permalink |
Note to self: If you say you like to edit in a comment, do so before posting a damn reply. Ah, well.
Posted by Tara on May 9, 2011 at 10:01 pm | permalink |
Some thoughts:
-> The host was so obviously biased towards grad school with his leading questions, frequent interruptions, and condescending attitude
-> Penelope brought hard facts and logic; the other panelist brought flowery rhetoric and BS
-> As Hillary mentioned above, going to grad school is at least 25 years old advice. My father went graduated from law school in 1979 when law school loans were around 3% and tuition, books, room, and board were less than $1,000/semester.
The joke "don't confuse me with the facts" rings loud and clear here!
Posted by Tom T on May 9, 2011 at 10:28 pm | permalink |
That's it Penelope! I had JUST gotten off the phone with my best friend, telling her this exact thing, and even mentioning you and your blog in the same convo and here is additional evidence from you. I forwarded it right away. I'll be graduating from grad school later this month! I know I have gotten "value" out of my graduate school experience, but I like school, and the network has been amazing. I definitely wouldn't recommend it to everyone.
Thanks as always for your insights!
Posted by Marie on May 9, 2011 at 10:52 pm | permalink |
That was so interesting!! You definitely let them get to you and started running your mouth. Still, I truly appreciated that you were trying to focus on the topic at hand and go deep into a real discussion.
The other guest sounded slyly smug and elitist (how many more times, really, could he have mentioned his numerous degrees and years of academic experience?)… it reminded me of when Star Jones said she that she was so fortunate (blessed by God in fact!) that she had gotten out of Thailand right before the tsunami hit. Yes, right, YOU are so fortunate and blessed… but the 160,000 people that died? Oh, they were just a bit too lowly to be saved.
I have a master's degree. It's in Liberal Studies. It's from a ridiculously expensive private school in New York. I'll be in debt for the next 30 years or so from it. I'm glad I got it. I learned things there I didn't even know were out in the world to learn. That being said, it's done nothing for my career I couldn't do for myself all on my own.
In my eyes, you won the debate today with flying colors. If you had done it in a softer tone, you would have been received better. But you know what? I found your rawness refreshing and independent. You go Penelope!
Posted by Sarah Wood on May 9, 2011 at 11:02 pm | permalink |
you forgot to, somehow, dovetail the fact that star jones has also spouted about being "blessed" to have her JD. i'm still trying to figure out how it prepared her for a life spent on chat shows and "reality" apprentice programs. maybe it's about the arguing, but none of those arguments i've witnessed bear any marks of those from more evidently learned people.
Posted by thatgirl on May 10, 2011 at 12:31 pm | permalink |
You say "Most people will change careers five times in their life."
Graduate school is my current career. As a biology student, I get paid $30,000 a year, I have no debt, someone else pays the tuition, and I'm saving money for retirement. I am guaranteed a position for 6 years, possibly 7.
So what if I don't get to design all my own experiments in the future? Someone will pay me to do their experiments for them. Or I'll take my skills at writing and giving amazing presentations elsewhere and have a new career.
I realize that many grad students aren't in my situation, but for many of us, this is a career.
Posted by Erin on May 9, 2011 at 11:21 pm | permalink |
Interesting post and comments.
Personally, I have a bachelor degree (B. Commerce) and spent a year or two working, before I went back to school to do a post-grad diploma program.
It cost me $26k – but without it, and my Bachelor's, I would not have qualified for my TN-1 visa, nor been able to kick off my career in IT.
In my first year working after finishing grad school, I doubled my salary compared to what I made working full time without grad school – and have since doubled it again.
For me, my Bachelor's degree and my post-grad program were absolutely required to get the career I wanted – I know it's not true for everyone in my position, but in my particular case, I would absolutely not be working in this career without those steps.
Posted by LeeAnn on May 9, 2011 at 11:38 pm | permalink |
To me, this isn't about grad school. It's about ladders.
Some people see their entire lives as a series of steps on a ladder. Graduating from high school is one step, college another, a graduate school the next, and so on. Or, in business, it's go to college, get a job, get experience, become a manager, become a partner, etc.
You can find ladders like that in every field. Some people (a.k.a. marketers) are actually paid to create them.
But the question is, is the ladder real? Do you actually need to climb it? Or can you push it over?
In fields like business and politics and literature, the ladders are appallingly fake. You can skip from the bottom to the top as fast as you want to. Just look at all the high school dropouts who are millionaires and the totally unqualified performers who become politicians. They don't climb the ladders. They push them over.
But in some fields, the ladders are there for a real purpose. Anything to do with medicine is a good example. If you try to skip steps, then there is a real risk people can die, and that's not acceptable, so the ladder is rigorously enforced.
So, rather than agreeing or disagreeing with this post, I think it's better to ask yourself a question:
Do I really have to climb all of the steps on this ladder to get to where I want to go, or am I really just climbing because I'm confused or scared or blind?
If the ladder is real, then by all means, climb it.
But if it's not, stop wasting your time. Just push the damn thing over.
Posted by Jon Morrow on May 10, 2011 at 12:03 am | permalink |
Brilliant analogy. That really sums it up, I think!
Posted by Lynn on May 10, 2011 at 10:00 am | permalink |
One of the ways where grad school helps is to deal with employment gaps. Although I had planned to return to work after my kids were born, my first child was born 3 months prematurely and putting him in daycare was not an option. Later we discovered that he had Aspergers Syndrome so preschool was difficult, public school was a mess, and when we finally found a good place for him, I had been out of the work force for nearly 10 years. With that sort of gap in employment, especially in computer science, you are effectively locked out of jobs. It is great if you have the option of being an entrepreneur, doing without such things as health insurance, but I had to have a job with a company with medical insurance since otherwise my son would be uninsurable.
What grad school gave me was a way to restart my career. Once I came out with a graduate degree, no one cared about what happened prior to that, especially since I got my degree in a field that was related to computer science but somewhat different. I could include relevant experience on my resume to show that I had work experience, but no one looked at gaps in employment.
Personally I think it stinks when they penalize job seekers (primarily women) who have gaps in employment. I have a friend with a EE degree who was an excellent worker prior to having kids. Now she has been out of the corporate-type work force for over 10 years. She cannot get a job as an EE. She has been told it is because of the gap in employment.
I don't know if it would pay off for everyone, but in my situation it was essential.
Posted by Janis Schubert on May 10, 2011 at 1:55 am | permalink |
I gained admission into Columbia Business School and took some time off between quitting my old job and starting business school. In that time I had the opportunity to really think about my motives for grad school. In the end I decided that the opportunity costs of attending would be too great. Further, my ambition was to set up my own business so I reasoned it made sense to just do it rather than go to school to "learn" how to set up a business. It is very easy to get sucked into the marketing spiel about the relevance of MBA's. Ultimately I think the main value they add to a person's profile is to enhance their brand and give them contacts. Some would argue that this alone justifies the hefty price tag. In my case, it didn't make sense at the time and I feel very happy with my decision.
Posted by Ada on May 10, 2011 at 3:33 am | permalink |
My husband is working on his phd in molecular biology. I'm pretty sure science is one of those fields where you still need a graduate degree. I think everyone who works on cutting edge research is a post-doc, because no one is going to hand a multi million dollar grant to an undergrad. Not going to happen.
Posted by Rachel on May 10, 2011 at 4:18 am | permalink |
Doing a PhD wasn't the best move for me either. Spent the best part of 3 years fighting my entrepreneurial urges and the development of my company seriously suffered. Now I have a doctorate that I have no intention of using and could have had 4 or 5 years more business experience than I have. It's not all regrets, and being Dr is nice, but it's mostly self-indulgent. I could have achieved more if I had recognised at an earlier stage that the academic path wasn't for me.
Posted by Say No! to the Office on May 10, 2011 at 4:37 am | permalink |
I agree with you about the world needing more lifelong learners. Thankfully the public high school I went to had enough free thinking teachers to try to break us of going after the grades and be more about what we were learning. I'm so grateful for them. I try to model this for my children all the time.
BTW, I also thought it was funny you used the song 99 Problems. This song gets stuck in my head lately.
Posted by Heather on May 10, 2011 at 4:49 am | permalink |
The issue of perception plays a huge factor in many workplace and it partly contributes to the reason why young people choose to go to graduate school even if they know they could've learnt it by themselves or even if they know most of what grad school teach them.
From my experience as someone who's been in the corporate world for a number of years and as someone without a Master's degree, the corporate world usually favors those with master's degrees (especially if it's from a reputable college). If you have two candidates for a position, and both candidates are excellent and can do the job, chances are the one with the Master's degree will have an edge over the equally good candidate without Master's Degree. This is one of the reasons that drive folks to get that extra paper qualification. Some people at the workplace (and in fact the world) just look at you differently because you don't have the brand name Master's degree as you go higher up in the corporate world and as it gets more competitive, it sucks but it's true for many companies. Companies, even some start-ups like to brag that they hire people from top grad schools etc
I agree with Penelope that the future in part will belong to the generation of Homeschoolers and those who are very good at self-learning. Higher learning institutions are not be able to keep up with the changes in the real world, as they are set up to be notoriously slow at adapting to changes. In the future when change will be much more rapid than it is now, they will become even more outdated and irrelevant and many people will be slowing themselves down and be outdated if they go to grad school. This is true for industries experiencing rapid changes which do not require grad school as minimum qualifications or as license for entry into the industry.
Posted by Meem on May 10, 2011 at 5:10 am | permalink |
For me, NOT having a graduate degree was getting in the way of jobs I wanted to get. So I went at night, my employer paid for most of it. Cost me almost nothing, except a LOT of time for three years. Totally worth that.
Posted by brooklynchick on May 10, 2011 at 6:25 am | permalink |
I don't know how I stumbled upon this drivel, but this one blog post tells me a couple of things…
1. You're thinking and talking more about what grad school is worth to *YOU* than about grad school in general. Medical school is a waste of time? Really? Dentistry school? Advanced degrees in mathematics, physics, and other sciences? Law school? Do you even know what grad school is? Sounds like, for you, it's a place where you go for a couple of years to re-learn what you should have learned as an undergrad in areas like business, education, whatever, at fine (sarcasm) institutions like University of Phoenix. But for our truly bright minds in this country, grad school is what you do if you want to become one of the best in your profession. You don't become a medical doctor by bullshitting your way through life and "knowing the right people."
2. Intellectually, you're a weakling. Based on your writing, you should not be advising people on whether or not to attend grad school. Broad generalizations like "grad school is a bad investment" is an immediate give-away. You're not very smart. I look forward to more insightful blog posts from you, like, "Black people are good at basketball." You're right about one thing; grad school is a waste of time for *SOME* people. Get a job.
Posted by Joe Scanlon on May 10, 2011 at 7:54 am | permalink |
You've always made excellent points about grad school Penelope. Here's another point. Grand school, and college? Is great for people who know how to follow the rules. They reward following the rules, and graduate people at the top who can follow the rules even better than their classmates. Unfortunately, most of the really successful folks agree that following someone else's rules doesn't necessarily get you where you want to go.
Posted by Caitlin on May 10, 2011 at 8:51 am | permalink |
Who the heck is paying for grad school? My degree came part time on my former company's dime. Same for my husband. All of my friends in grad school did it with funding from their departments. Any debt they have is small in comparison to what they racked up in undergrad.
Granted we are all engineers and scientists from a top schools, but really, if you have to pay for your degree out-right, you aren't looking hard enough for ways for others to pay for it.
Posted by Amanda on May 10, 2011 at 8:53 am | permalink |
What is really interesting is how companies are taking advantage of this fear of adulthood.
What is the Google campus, if not another college experiece? Facebook was founded on the idea of keeping up with your college social group. Even TED is a sort of college fantasy, sitting in the best class, with the best peers, with the best professors.
Posted by CreidS on May 10, 2011 at 9:03 am | permalink |
I consider the graduate program I chose to be wonderful therapy and an excuse for adventuring for the sake of adventure! Of course, I chose carefully and found myself an interdisciplinary masters that allowed me to learn about a place I was keen on exploring (Alaska). I was a newspaper journalist with an ivy league undergrad education before I went to grad school and was fully aware that I didn't NEED a graduate degree to continue writing and researching. But the program I found paid my tuition, but gave me a small stipend to live on and I got hooked up with a well-paid internship. I moved into a cabin in the woods with no running water, spent a lot of time reading, being surrounded by interesting people keen on learning and teaching, and I had summers free to adventure/research/explore random jobs with wild abandon… and it's funny because I am still not finished with my thesis, but grad school gave me the connections and experience to apply for a different kind of jobs than I had in the past. I now have the best job in the world. I still live in a cabin with no running water and still don't actually have a degree from my graduate experience, but I wouldn't trade it for anything!
My advice: If you do want to go to grad school, do it, but just do it with a clear head and realistic goals. Don't spend too much money on it and choose a school in a place you'd choose to vacation.
Posted by brittanyr on May 10, 2011 at 9:04 am | permalink |
Anyone ever see this blog? A grad student is in the process of posting 100 reasons not to go to grad school, though specifically in the humanities and social sciences. It's up to 58 reasons so far, and it's pretty persuasive.
http://100rsns.blogspot.com/
Posted by Rachel on May 10, 2011 at 9:17 am | permalink |
I think graduate school is appropriate if the degree is gained in addition to practical work experience. I was fortunate enough to have my company pay for my master's degree in statistics, which I earned while working full time. It was a lot of work and took me five years, but at the end I had no debt and was able to weave what I learned in graduate school with very practical experience from my job. I found that it's very hard to be a statistician that moves up in a company without a graduate degree, but I was very glad that I was able to attend graduate school the way I did. I hope that if companies value some type of advanced degree or additional training for their employees, they will find ways to help their best employees obtain a graduate degree while they work.
Posted by Dan Edstrom on May 10, 2011 at 9:38 am | permalink |
The health care system is broken and the higher educational system is broken … financially. It's working for now (sort of) but for how much longer? I just don't think either system is sustainable in its current form. Think back over the last century. The education (and consequently fiscal) requirements (individually and for our society) for a decent job over the last century have been elevated from high school to college and now approaching grad school. I'm all for higher education but the manner in which it's delivered needs changing to bring more value. Everyone's finances and grad school funding is different but the loans that many students carry after graduation are astounding. However I will add the grad school should definitely be an option and it works best for those people that really know why they're there – self-knowledge is the key.
I thought the interview was good as many points were discussed. I thought Peter Temes went over the line when he said – "The best thing you learn as a student is you learn how to listen …" He could have said something more tactful like – "Can I get a word in here edgewise?" or something similar. It was at that point when I knew Penelope had pressed his button.
Posted by Mark W. on May 10, 2011 at 9:45 am | permalink |
Here's the thing – until about 20 to 30 years ago, a college degree was what was deemed "needed" to succeed, and then over time that was changed to a graduate degree being the baseline of credentialism needed to succeed. The reason? The job market cannot employ everyone, so the culture shrunk the pool by keeping everyone in school longer on the one end, and then laying off the older workers (or forcing them into "early retirement") on the other. Thus, the economy only has to generate jobs for people between 25 and 55.
Posted by Scott on May 10, 2011 at 9:50 am | permalink |
Grad schools is for people with a real "vocation".
If you would be glad to sleep on someone's couch in Cambridge as long as you get to do one or more of things like:
* Prove theorems
* Splice Genes
* Try to translate Etruscan inscriptions
then go to grad school.
Otherwise you will are very likely to throw away three to ten years of your life, start your career late and you will be broke.
This especially applies to people who don't come from well off families.
Posted by A. Nony Mouse on May 10, 2011 at 10:11 am | permalink |
I have a master's degree (M.A.). Its cost was about $2,000 and took me two years to complete (this was my decision — many of my fellow grad students chose to take three years, or take 5-6 and get a PhD). My program paid for everything but semester fees, and gave me a stipend to live on. Is this typical? Probably not. But it certainly goes against the idea that all graduate school is a waste of money. Instead, it's possible that some graduate degrees are not right for everyone, and some graduate degrees occur more debt than they are worth.
Going to graduate school was the best thing that I've ever done. Graduate school made me learn how to teach, as my program demanded that we TA a course each semester. Graduate school taught me how to communicate succinctly, in a way that undergraduate work never did. Graduate school taught me to keep learning, and how to research. Research is applicable in the real world. I continuously find studies and trends, and present them to my agency. I keep my agency abreast of new things that are happening, even outside of my field of study.
Did my master's degree make a difference in getting my job? Yes. Did the degree make a difference in my salary? No. But if you're only going to graduate school to make more money in the future, you're going for the wrong reasons.
My master's degree is in Communication Science. Some (perhaps Penelope as well) deem it "worthless". But going to graduate school wasn't just an "escape" from adulthood. Going to graduate school was a deliberate choice that I made to learn more about what interested me. And my degree has paid off handsomely, even though it's not reflected in a dollar amount. My $2K investment gives me tools that make me successful in my field. It's not just a benefit to my current job, but it will be a benefit to any further job that I have.
Is graduate school for everyone? Certainly not. Many of my friends couldn't dream of teaching, doing research or writing (and defending) a thesis. Does graduate school give you building blocks in how to succeed in the real world? Without a doubt.
Posted by Giovanna on May 10, 2011 at 10:23 am | permalink |
Heh. Another lie via omission or exaggeration. When does she tell the truth?
Posted by Joe Scanlan on May 10, 2011 at 6:00 pm | permalink |
You weren't on NPR. You were on KPCC, an NPR-affiliated public radio station.
Posted by Flora on May 10, 2011 at 11:15 am | permalink |
*sigh* thank you, Penelope. this is the kick in the butt i needed to drop my psychological baggage and be a self-starter. im so sick of school. i want…nay, will…be an entrepreneur like you.
as for college, i think the pro v. anti camps both have it mistaken. why not do college for just two years? by then, you'll get the true benefits of without the huge debt. benefits like the experiences, personal growth, critical thinking skills, huge network of friends, football tailgates & games, and the classic toga parties. game the system.
just sayin'.
Posted by Varun on May 10, 2011 at 11:23 am | permalink |
Grad school may be a waste of money if you are trying to buy an education. But, I got kicked out of my house at age 18 for being gay, and didn't go to college – barely finished high school. I spent most of my adulthood feeling stupid and embarrassed. I finally went to college at age 38ish, then, went to B-School.
I could not have known how useless the education part was before going. (I just felt that others knew more. Now, I know no one knows anything.)
I am happily paying off the student loans that helped me pay for the rocket boost in confidence. I used to feel stupid, now I know I am among the top in my (very good) school.
Posted by Mary on May 10, 2011 at 11:41 am | permalink |
I'm sorry to hear that you had such a hard introduction to adulthood Mary. But a competent and compassionate therapist could have helped you work through those inadequacy issues for far less than what you paid for your B-school education.
Posted by Kay on May 10, 2011 at 6:05 pm | permalink |
Penelope, why not respond to your critics at the radio station's site, rather than simply post here where you know you have a base of supporters? From my perspective, your position appears to consist of self-centered generalizations that are incoherent and unsupported by reasoned analysis. As I recall, your response to an art student planning to enroll in an MFA program was, effectively, if you go to grad school, "you suck." Do you really think that is the voice of an enlightened counseling professional? Sheesh!
Posted by BT on May 10, 2011 at 1:18 pm | permalink |
Hey Penelope,
You have to check this out–quick parody video making fun of grad school:
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6361570/honest-grad-school-ad
–Tina
Posted by Tina Su on May 10, 2011 at 1:46 pm | permalink |
Thanks for the kick in the rear, I was looking up MBA programs yesterday because my boss really wants me to have one. I must have been having a brain fart because I'm a "work no longer than 2 years at a place and switch" type of person. I've also started up my own consulting company on the side and if that takes off, the boss (um, that would be me), doesn't give a goats behind if there is MBA after my name (and $80k in school loan debt).
Posted by Lynn on May 10, 2011 at 1:49 pm | permalink |
Penelope:
Sad to say that I haven't been reading your blog for the past 3 years. On the other hand and coincidentally we posted this story today about an alternative to expensive graduate schools: http://www.bartending-school.com/paul-costanzo-happily-bartending-age-60-2
Its quite astounding. I've probably got to go through your blog to get the full sense of your arguments–more than what I read in this one post, but I'll also pass on a pretty amazing anecdotal story from our school:
We got a call from a newly graduated MD. She was starting her career as a doctor. Her pay was miserable. One of her co-workers at her hospital, and someone who is a grad student in the DC area was making lots and lots more than the new Doc. This other person was a graduate of our bartending school and getting a lot of work as a bartender on a regular basis.
Our program is all of 40 hours and costs considerably less than $1,000. It comes with a lot of job placement assistance. Its not an expensive training alternative.
Meanwhile, the newly minted Doc, had a minor car accident, didn't have cash, had debts up the kazoo….and was asking us about extending payment programs for our little 40 hour program.
Big education programs within this economy are very risky…especially if they come with lots of debt.
Posted by Dave on May 10, 2011 at 2:59 pm | permalink |
Strangely enough I became a professor in a "hard science" to do exactly that: lifelong learning, lifelong challenges to invent and reinvent, constantly learning and studying new things, challenging myself. That is what grad school gave me.
Posted by cashmere on May 10, 2011 at 5:27 pm | permalink |
Grad school is indeed a waste of time if all you want to do is bullshit your way through life as a grifter, conning one person after another. You don't need grad school to be a con artist or a fraud. In fact, grad school is probably going to hinder your success, in that case, because you might accidentally take a philosophy class along the way and learn something about ethical behavior.
I think your "advice" on this blog is only useful if someone is looking for advice on how to become a sociopath.
Posted by Joe Scanlan on May 10, 2011 at 6:04 pm | permalink |
Penelope,
I'm right there with you. Since 90% of those with MAs don't work in the field they studied, of what use is it? Oh, right, just for the learning, as in being an educated person. Hah! With all the information available, becoming educated has never been easier for individuals to access.
I think Anya Kamenetz DIY-U covers the territory nicely. It both describes why academic education isn't paying off and gives alternatives. For all but those fields that insist on undergraduate degrees (medicine comes to mind), the world is changing rapidly. Those who get degrees that don't enhance their employability and incur debt over $20,000 are coming to look like sheep. Leave them to pay off their masters degrees through the retail and service jobs they could have gotten out of high school. The new economic age requires new learning paradigms.
Like you, I'm ready not to be singing this song anymore. I'll have enough to do working with those who see the need for solid career planning before leaving high school. Working with those who need to be convinced, though the failures of our education system are all around, is just too draining. Keep the faith, Carol
Posted by Carol Christen on May 10, 2011 at 6:31 pm | permalink |
no, not everybody should go to grad school. It depends what you want to do in your life. But grad school is not just for those who become professors, you learn a lot, and you will be able to do jobs you cannot do without an advanced degree. Like nuclear engineer, or make chips (the ones in your computer), or how to improve internet security, which needs so much high level math that you need an advanced degree. Yep, you might not run your own computer company, but you will still have a great job. You don;t have to own the store to do something worthwhile.
I totally agree that the internet is a wonderful resource of information. Education and learning however do not simply come from amassing information, they come from processing information. Sharing, discussing and learning with fellow students in grad school, college or high school pushes you to much higher levels of understanding than you can achieve alone.
Because not everyone is happy with grad school, and many have a different plan for their life does not make grad school the worst of all choices for everyone.
Sure, many skills you can learn on the job, many skills however can only be acquired in an intense period of learning. Grad school is more than getting a few facts into your head.
Posted by merino on May 10, 2011 at 7:05 pm | permalink |
I started a business straight out of college. Twelve years later I had a three-year-old and a baby and I hated my educational choices in my rural area, so I decided to open a private school with the kind of curriculum I wanted. I spent the eight months or so waiting for the building to be ready learning everything about curriculum and the kind of learning I wanted my school to offer.
In my town, where I was known to have zero qualifications to run a school, an elderly woman stood up at a town meeting and said "how DARE she open this school." It was felt to be an affront to the public school, which was held in high regard (though not, of course, by me).
Fast forward a few years and I was hired as an educational consultant for a large educational organization in my state. A year or so after that, I was offered a job teaching education at a community college. When I pointed out to the head of the dept. offering the job that I had no degree in education, she thought I meant master's. No, no, I said, I have *no* degree in education, whatsoever. She was horrified and retracted the job offer. Which was too bad, because I would have kicked ass at that job.
Education is about gate-keeping, and yes, I know how overused that word is now, but still — it's true. You have to pay to play, or for God's sake, ANYONE would be hanging up their shingle.
I consulted for schools, led workshops, gave keynotes at conferences, etc., etc., etc., and since I had hired myself and I (very open-mindedly) didn't require myself to have a degree in education (and my state, very open-mindedly, didn't mind either), everyone else just assumed I had "credentials". I didn't need the credentials, obviously; they are a separate issue from actually possessing the knowledge. I learned it all on my own, and I mastered it well enough to go on to teach it to professionals. But that just won't do — educators are, for obvious and self-serving reasons, the first in line to demand that everyone be properly educated to do every job. I just managed to sneak in on the basis of my ability to do the job.
Now I homeschool. Knowing how to learn what you need to know on your own is a super-skill.
Posted by Lori on May 10, 2011 at 9:38 pm | permalink |
I am a surprised about the assumption by Penelope that everybody in grad school is simply served up the knowledge. Grad school needs a large amount of self teaching, reading, finding the right source, and this is combined with the school providing a larger intellectual framework. I would be very disappointed in my students if they only relied on me providing them the material. I give them the tools to work and teach how to use them, they have to do the work.
Posted by merino on May 10, 2011 at 9:55 pm | permalink |
I'm in graduate school now. I just finished a Masters in Mathematics from a third tier graduate school. They want graduate students partly for teaching assistance, but mainly to sit in the professors classes. It's making work for the professors, not that they put any time into teaching. Some of the worse teaching I have ever gotten was there. Now I'm in graduate school for Mathematics Education. The College of Education is full of many juveniles. They climbed into the tree house, and now they are going to keep others out. Plus, in education, researchers are reading each others papers, but real teachers aren't. So, I am looking for a job.
Posted by Milwaukee on May 10, 2011 at 11:01 pm | permalink |
Well Lori "I would be very disappointed in my students if they only relied on me providing them the material. I give them the tools to work and teach how to use them, they have to do the work." La-ti-da. Do you actually give assignments which allow them to do that? Or are your assignments so constrained, with so many prescribed parameters, that there is little opportunity for individual thinking?
Years ago my uncle had carpal tunnel surgery, with a great big "y" shaped scar on his hand and wrist. While getting his stitches out he asked about doing the other hand. The doctor said to wait a few months. Six months later the same surgery required three incisions for a total of 7 stitches. However, in the college of education such dramatic innovation isn't going to happen.
Posted by Milwaukee on May 10, 2011 at 11:05 pm | permalink |
yes, indeed, I give them assignments a.k.a. research projects where the outcome is unknown. This means that the constraints are minimal, and they need their own brain to work it out, come up with solutions, develop new ways to get where they want to go, find a way out of it if things do not work. However, without solving problems first where the answer is indeed known, it is not possible to take this next step into the unknown.
Posted by merino on May 11, 2011 at 11:44 am | permalink |
Ah, I see, you're talking to me by mistake…
Posted by Lori on May 12, 2011 at 7:25 am | permalink |
After six years of grad school in one of the physical sciences (so there was plenty of grant money to pay our graduate assistantships; I accrued no student loans and graduated with no debt and a paid-off car), I skipped the obligatory post-doc and went straight into teaching, and have enjoyed twenty-plus years of relatively interesting, stress-free work that pays roughly double the median income for a family of four in my area. And it's all on nine-month contracts, so my summers are free to do with as I please. Grad school was very, very good to me. I recommend it to everyone. Admittedly, most of my students are graduate students, so there is a bit of self-interest there.
Posted by Southern Man on May 10, 2011 at 11:14 pm | permalink |
"I recommend it to everyone."
Sure, because everyone gets grants for it, no one goes into debt for it, and everyone gets a good job afterwards. Everyone's just like you and is certain to have the same great experience you did.
Maybe you should consider only recommending it to some, instead of everyone.
Posted by elg on May 11, 2011 at 8:15 am | permalink |
I'm an old baby boomer who went to grad school in the 70's, did the internship bit, then decided to take the M.A. and skip the PhD. I can't believe that people are going into six figure debt for this nonsense. Outside of Medicine, to a much lesser extent Law, I just can't see it. To me, it felt like I was back in high school, reading other people's reading lists. Yet, I taught community college for 22 years with no PhD when PhDs I knew couldn't get hired. It happened that when an opening developed, I was substitute teaching in an inner city junior high and the Chairperson said "If he can do that, he can do anything." Although my M.A. at a private college cost less then than it would at a public college today, I would not get that M.A. today. The really great people in my field are mostly in the cemetery. I'm sorry to say that the decline of higher education began with people my age. As for learning advanced subjects, that will all soon be online. Don't stifle your creativity to tow the party line in a grad school. All you'll get in most cases is a credential that allows you to teach college, if you're lucky enough to get a job. I say phooey.
Posted by Richardsson on May 11, 2011 at 12:05 am | permalink |
For the most part I agree with your basic assessment. I got an MS 10 years ago. There were only 3 courses that were worth taking and one was dropped form the program because I was the only one to ever take it(it was an elective in another department). Way too many of the courses were just revenue for the university. I had at least 3 required courses that I could have passed with an A on day one.
If a person does go to grad school they need to work full time while they do it. Yes it takes longer but you don't loose the years of real skill and salary growth.
Posted by Kent on May 11, 2011 at 12:15 am | permalink |
Folks if you're going to argue that grad degrees are valuable because certain fields rely heavily on credentials, you need to factor the cost v benefit to individuals who obtain those degrees but are not able to find employment, or are underemployed, in those fields. Because one of the primary drivers of credentialism is specialization, which means that the transferability of graduate degrees in those fields decreases as you go up the ladder. So it's a sunken cost for this group. Also the marginal value of a graduate degree, for those who do find relevant employment, has been decreasing steadily over the past several decades – go ahead and look it up.
Realistically there is an overproduction of grad degrees in the US, even in the sciences and engineering. This fact is evinced by the employment numbers. The reason that employers increasingly require them is that they come cheap. It's supply and demand. This is the same phenomenon we've seen evolve with undergrad degrees over the past several decades.
Posted by The Degree Fairy on May 11, 2011 at 12:33 am | permalink |
Thank you, Penelope Trunk! Once a few million more people figure this out, the world will be a better place.
To that end, here are 100 Reasons NOT to Go to Grad School:
http://100rsns.blogspot.com/
Posted by WG on May 11, 2011 at 12:33 am | permalink |
I went to graduate school 20 years ago – the program combined theoretical and practical aspects of my profession (internship combined with class work). It was a 'paid' internship which also covered the costs of the masters degree. I had already worked in another engineering profession for four years before going to graduate school – I wanted to move into a completely different engineering field – I used my graduate school experience to bridge to my newer (then) career. It was a great experience and I believe very beneficial for me – I still practice in that profession.
Key for me was knowing exactly what I wanted to do, researching the types of programs available and knowing that a combination of work and school would be the best for me in the end. While I might have been able to find another avenue to pursue my desire, it would have been a lot more difficult and taken more time to reach where I am today.
Posted by Deserat on May 11, 2011 at 1:08 am | permalink |
I stumbled on a few of your columns and I have to say that we have similar attitudes about education. I'm also an ardent observer of history and society, thinking about how generations shape the future.
I've viewed education the same as most for most of my life, but recently began examining those traditional views. Public schools are like assembly lines with government mandates loading up more and more "important" things to include in education (which rarely involve the "three Rs"). The spectacle in WI and the battles in NJ sealed my belief that NO ONE can have my son's best interest in mind more than my husband and I. I'm a Gen Xer planning to homeschool my son. I also have two adult children, one in college and one entering. While I am surrounded by parents who believe they need to go off and incur tons of debt at a big school, partying and having the "college experience" (I guess debt is part of that too), I am sending them to a wonderful community college first. They are getting a quality education covering those basic 'must have' classes for much, much less. This will give them two more years of deciding what they want to do and how to make that happen. I see this being a bigger trend too. Putting aside the 'need' to go away to an expensive four year school and attending local community college first. Once an option for those who couldn't get into big name colleges, it's now the choice for those with fiscal and practicality concerns.
Thanks for your columns, I too see an education revolution coming.
Gina
Posted by Gina on May 11, 2011 at 5:32 am | permalink |
Deserat said: "Key for me was knowing exactly what I wanted to do, researching the types of programs available and knowing that a combination of work and school would be the best for me in the end."
Exactly. I have one friend right now who wants to go to law school for all the wrong reasons. She wants a change, can't think of anything else to do, and isn't researching programs because she can't relocate and would have to settle for the one law school near her. I urged her to reconsider, and told her that if she didn't have a free ride and/or a job waiting on her, she shouldn't go. Tuition is far too expensive now for people to be using it to "find themselves."
I'd give that same advice to those wanting to attend any sort of graduate school. I got my PhD 13 years ago in a field where jobs were plentiful, as were grants, internships, fellowships, etc. I knew what I wanted to do – had known since I was 19 – and entered a field where the PhD was required, but I didn't have to take out any loans, and earned roughly $11-$16K per year while I was a full time student.
You should go to grad school to get a job – period. If you just "love learning", get a library card.
Posted by KS on May 11, 2011 at 5:44 am | permalink |
KS says:
"Exactly. I have one friend right now who wants to go to law school for all the wrong reasons. She wants a change, can't think of anything else to do, and isn't researching programs because she can't relocate and would have to settle for the one law school near her. I urged her to reconsider, and told her that if she didn't have a free ride and/or a job waiting on her, she shouldn't go. Tuition is far too expensive now for people to be using it to "find themselves.""
She will find $150,000+ in debt.
I couldn't think of anything else to do, so I went to law school. It worked in the late 1990s, although I ended up with $120,000 in debt. Now? Not so much.
If she's completely insistent on going to law school, she should keep taking the LSAT until she has a high LSAT score and then scoop up scholarship money from the local school.
Posted by JP on May 15, 2011 at 4:28 pm | permalink |
Most people will change careers five times in their life.
I find that very difficult to believe. Where did you get that idea?
Posted by mishu on May 11, 2011 at 6:10 am | permalink |
I'll call Brave Sierra on that also. We hear that number thrown out all-the-time, but without any evidence to back it. I suspect that number is conflated with employer or work relocation within the same career. Not the same thing at all. I've worked 32 years for one company, but in 3 different business units at 3 different locations. Does that count as 3 career changes?
Posted by Soviet of Washington on May 11, 2011 at 11:49 am | permalink |
It depends.
I have a Masters in Healthcare Administration. I got a bit out of the program (admittedly, not a ton), but I can't imagine what students who arrived straight from undergrad, got out of it. Most of the lessons had to do with real world, healthcare scenarios. These people had nothing of value to contribute to the group. Then the foreign students, who could barely speak English. Get them in a group and you could count on them contributing zero.
Like everything else, it depends. My Masters helped me get a position I probably would not have obtained otherwise, so I am glad I have it.
Posted by Brian on May 11, 2011 at 7:51 am | permalink |
I'm an MD scientist. I think Penelope has it mostly right.
You go to grad school if you really want to. If you really, really want to be a scientist and do your own experiments, and you think you can beat the odds and do, then go to grad school.
With your eyes open, because you might not beat the odds.
Ditto for just about any other graduate endeavor. If romance literature is your passion, fine, go to grad school and study romance literature. Just don't expect a fine job at a prestigious university teaching romance literature as the pay-off.
And, preferably, don't run up a lot of debt paying for grad school.
There are some masters programs that directly translate into a job or career you want to have. Fine, go get the masters. Ditto if you want to be a physician or lawyer (eyes open, remember). Get the degree.
But get educated first about what grad school means, how you're going to pay for it, and what that degree honestly translates into.
A final comment: some of the curmudgeon faculty at my university are very upset about some of the masters' programs being offered by our institution. Why? Because they see them simply as ways of making money for the university without adding value to our mission.
Enough said.
Posted by Steve White on May 11, 2011 at 8:28 am | permalink |
It really depends. I'm an engineer and a M.S. was an easy way to put myself ahead of the crowd for future employment. My company paid for it and I had a guaranteed payraise upon completion of the degree – so it would have been stupid **not** to pursue, it only cost me time, some of which was comped by my employer since the research I was doing benefited them as well.
I am almost done with my Ph.D. Again, my employer is paying for it although I have no promotion based on it, the degree will open doors in the long term.
I don't disagree grad school is overkill for most, but for some it is a blessing.
Posted by e.p. on May 11, 2011 at 8:28 am | permalink |
Sure, people can learn on their own, but without structure, community and accountability, many people won't learn the content or skills that they set out to with the best intentions. People can also lose weight on their own with diet and exercise, but programs like Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig remain popular for the same reasons (structure, community and accountability).
For both WW and school, your ultimate 'results' depend on what you take from it, and you need to decide whether the extra buttressing is needed and worth the cost.
Posted by Jenn on May 11, 2011 at 10:37 am | permalink |
Yes we can (learn by ourselves) but most of us won't. It sounded like graduate school is worse than nothing. Yet I have heard countless reports that personal health correlates with the level of education, whatever the field of study. Studying seems to teach you to absorb information. One might expect that to be a helpful quality in an ever-changing job life. Besides, Penelope was too emphatic to sound convincing (cf. "It's PREPOSTEROUS to…") Made me skip half of the podcast. Cool and detached is better.
Posted by kormy on May 24, 2011 at 4:57 am | permalink |
Interesting discussion! I have often thought about going back to school and getting a Master's in PR to add to my Bachelor of PR, but the main reason I haven't is I don't want to put the time and money towards it, esp since it won't really help me get work in the field unless I want to teach at a University level and I have no interest in that. So, personally I agree that you don't necessarily need to get a Master's or PhD, etc, in order to be successful in your field. That being said – I can see why people DO go for them – some ppl DO actually need to have them in order to move up in their field, some ppl like the personal satisfaction that they get from it, some ppl just want to specialize more in one particular area of their field or try out a different field altogether. Sure it costs a lot of money and is a huge time commitment, but that doesn't mean it's a "waste of time". That's decision that everyone has to make for themselves. Some ppl can afford the time and money it takes, and even if they can't some ppl really want to, so is that so bad? It's only a waste of time for you if you are doing it for no reason when you really can't afford the time or money. I also agree that there is a lot that we can teach ourselves nowadays given the enormous amount of info that is at our fingertips, but some of us are not self-motivated enough to learn complex things on our own. I myself work much better when I am accountable to someone (a prof or boss), have regular assignments with deadlines, and I absorb more being in a physical classroom directly absorbing learning. I would never stick with a learning plan on my own time even if it was for something I really wanted to learn. That's just me – everybody learns in different ways and I think that's the real key here.
Posted by Kim on May 11, 2011 at 10:44 am | permalink |
That other NPR guy is way off base. I went to a top tier law school. I absolutely wish I had gone into nursing school instead. Realized too late that women flock to that field because they can make good money and actually see their kids. I miss mine.
Posted by d-day on May 11, 2011 at 11:29 am | permalink |
Does a graduate degree get you ahead in the real world? Perhaps the jury is still out, but in the federal government a masters or Ph.d is the key to upward mobility. And if you are female and arrive with a masters in hand, you never have to look over your shoulder because no one is going to catch you. You are golden and will remain so long after people have caught on to your penchant for medocrity.
Posted by R. Barrett on May 11, 2011 at 11:50 am | permalink |
just one more comment: Penelope is saying that if you are in Grad School you are just a dependent, slaving away for the professor and you don't get to do your own experiment. Do you have any idea how much knowledge, experience and sweat is needed to design your very own experiment? One which is good enough to get published and recognized? The reason that relatively few people get to do their own is not that they are prevented by some higher power from doing so, but that actually very few people are good at it (and bring the persistence, stubbornness, and intellectual power to do so to the table).
And by the way a PhD is awarded for an independent, new contribution to the field.
Posted by merino on May 11, 2011 at 11:59 am | permalink |
I'm an actuary. I sometimes speak at universities about the profession. I also interview job candidates from time to time.
To be an actuary, you have to have a Bachelor's degree and you have to pass the actuarial exams – which are much, much harder than getting a Bachelor's degree.
Fortunately, after you pass a couple of actuarial exams, you can usually find work in an actuarial department, and employers will generaly pay for your exams. You still have to put the time in yourself, and it's a lot of time, but it's not like paying grad school tuition and not earning a living.
I often meet students or job candidates who have or are pursuing a Master's degree, and even occasionally a PhD. I think it's fine that they have an interest in further study, but in my field, I regret to inform them, it does not pay more. It does not make you a top candidate. It doesn't do anything for you within the confines of this career.
This news is not recieved well by these students/candidates, and understandably so, but it is the reality.
Posted by anon on May 11, 2011 at 1:30 pm | permalink |
Oh, fortunate me – I've got the best of both worlds: Grad school and still lost!
Yay!
Posted by Miriam on May 11, 2011 at 4:08 pm | permalink |
Steven spielberg, Steve Jobbs and a lot others dropped out of schools !
Posted by Alan on May 12, 2011 at 10:42 am | permalink |
I think you should qualify your blanket statement about grad school with something regarding the benefits of useful graduate degrees. I know a lot of people that of their grad degrees in Econ, sociology, literature, etc. Agreed. Absolute waste of time. I utilize both of my degrees everyday at work and the combination of knowing two disciplines that supplement each other can help make you an extremely valuable employee. Case in point: how many people can be an intermediary between IT and finance? Well, someone who has a degree in information systems and one in accounting. Also, shameless plug for the Gators! Thanks for the Ed!
Posted by Bacon on May 12, 2011 at 11:41 am | permalink |
No one has written anything yet about MFAs. I have a BFA in Painting & Drawing and it's my life's dream to be a financially self-supporting artist. For most artists, this means gallery representation. Unfortunately, the art world is ridiculously exclusive — even if you meet the right person who introduces you to someone else who introduces you to a gallery owner, you will often not skate by on the quality of your work alone. An MFA is something they actively look for on your artist's CV. Without it, you are second class. To become first class, you have to fight even harder because no one thinks you are truly serious about being an artist long-term. They have to think you are serious because otherwise no one will want to invest in your work.
I'm currently on the fence about going to grad school. I'm mid-twenties and don't have kids, so I feel like now is the time, if I'm going to do it. But I would have to take out massive loans and go into serious debt, so I'm not sure it's worth the investment. For me, it wouldn't be an escape from adulthood — I like adulthood just fine — because in an MFA program you work, constantly; generally, these are studio based programs, not classroom – you're nose is not in a book, it's in the studio, probably with a smear of cadmium red on it.
I know that part of my desire for an MFA is rooted in a childhood-induced, perfectionist need to prove myself to others, so maybe making it without this accreditation would be the ultimate way to overcome that. But then again, more than anything I just want to make painting my career, and not have to work for someone else, and I don't really care how that happens, I just want it to happen.
If anyone has any comments or experience about the value of an MFA, I'd love to hear it.
Posted by Megan on May 12, 2011 at 1:20 pm | permalink |
Megan, it depends on your goals as an artist. If you want to establish yourself as an "advanced" artist in an international art production center (such as LA or NY), it probably does make sense. (In LA , particularly, the art culture is very much attached to the schools.) If you want to teach at the college level, the MFA is pretty much essential. If your goal is to establish a local market for painting of a more established, conservative stripe, than you may not need the MFA–perhaps there's another way to carve out the time to focus on painting that the MFA years will provide (you should only go into the MFA program if you are open to significant changes in your work). Also, all MFA programs are not equal: where you go will shape both your ideas about art and the cohort of professional colleagues with whom you enter the profession.
Posted by BT on May 12, 2011 at 2:09 pm | permalink |
Thanks for your insight BT. You're right that you should be open to significant changes in your work if you go into an MFA program, and the idea of that makes me uncomfortable. I like how I paint and what I paint, and I feel like I'm making good and steady progress as an artist on my own, by keeping a regular studio practice outside of my full time job. My art is not conservative, except that it's figurative, realistic, and oil on canvas, all of which are considered quite old-fashioned in the installation/video-heavy, overly-conceptual-at-the-expense-of-aesthetics current state of the art world. My figurative paintings are sometimes not family-friendly, though, so I guess it depends on your idea of conservative.
I have a small collector base, and a growing list of contacts and potential collectors through my job in the arts so I feel like I'm doing okay so far without the degree. I just fear that I will hit a glass ceiling at some point because I don't have it. My instincts tell me that that by itself is not a valid or solid enough reason to go.
But if I choose not to go, I feel like something else has to change – probably my location. I live in a city of about 2 million people with no REAL art world. I don't want to live in LA or NY, but I feel like I'm going to have to. I'd live and have a successful career in western Europe if I had it my way. So maybe I should be tailoring my career steps towards what is expected of artists (education wise, etc.) over there…
Posted by Megan on May 12, 2011 at 2:33 pm | permalink |
Megan, as you know, London and Berlin are also centers of art production, assuming you want in to that international "art world," the world of the Venice Biennale, Artforum magazine, etc. If you become fluent in German and get admitted to school there, I've been told there is no tuition charge, even for non-citizens (I'm not 100% sure of that, so please verify that claim before taking any steps in that direction). My advice, though, is not to go into any MFA program unless you are pretty sure of what you want to use it for–the sheepskin alone, even from a prestigious program, doesn't guarantee you anything. Good results will come from the qualities of your work, your ability to be well-informed, articulate, and an independent thinker; and the group of art professionals and peers who take you seriously because of their experiences with you and your work. In many cases, it will be easier to progress in your career if you settle, for a while at least, in the area where you went to school… so that may be a consideration, too.
Posted by BT on May 12, 2011 at 5:40 pm | permalink |
One more thought: if you go to a strong MFA program, you should be prepared to put in serious nose-in-book-time, not just hands-on-the-paint. Learning to think about and justify your work in relationship to art history, contemporary practices and theoretical/critical ideas is a big part of what motivates change in your work, and enables you to stake out a position as an artist. It also, like it or not, will educate you about the reasoning that lead to the "current state of the art world" that you describe.
Posted by BT on May 12, 2011 at 6:19 pm | permalink |
BT, I would hope that anyone who has been through a BFA program worth its salt would emerge with a solid understanding of art history, theory, and how the progression of contemporary art led us to where we are now (as well as how to speak about and justify your work). I get it, and I respect it, and I understand how it informs my own work, but what's being made and celebrated right now (and I've kept abreast, reading and seeing everything I can, and regularly attending contemporary fairs like Basel Miami though they're very far from me) is just not for me. I'm interested in where art is going next and how I fit into that, and that's what I hope the community and intense focus of a graduate degree would help accelerate for me.
I know that heavy reading and writing are required in MFA programs, but I originally made that distinction in my first comment to illustrate the difference between an MFA and an MA, for example, which I think we can safely say requires much more reading and writing. I was an exceptional student in art school and enjoyed that aspect of my studies, so I don't think I'd have a problem there.
Posted by Megan on May 12, 2011 at 7:28 pm | permalink |
Sorry, Megan. I didn't intend to impugn your education. Good luck to you, whatever course you choose.
Posted by BT on May 12, 2011 at 8:16 pm | permalink |
Thanks, BT. I didn't mean to sound defensive. I greatly appreciate the sound and relevant advice you've given me. The art world is its own animal, so it's difficult to find useful advice in forums outside of the art community. Thanks!
Posted by Megan on May 12, 2011 at 8:43 pm | permalink |
Hi Penelope,
I never comment on your blog, though I read your posts regularly.
Thanks for validating my lack of an advanced degree. Almost every friend I have is either getting or has gotten an MBA, JD, MA or MFA. I was starting to feel like I should get a degree just to "keep up," even though I rarely make decisions for that reason.
I've been at the same company for four years but I've moved up a few times and keep re-inventing my job. While it's not my life's passion it continues to interest me and keep things exciting. And for now that is enough.
Danielle
Posted by Danielle on May 12, 2011 at 2:15 pm | permalink |
But since "unhappiness is good for you" (http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/04/22/unhappiness-is-good-for-you/), grad school is pretty much perfect.
Posted by Vladimir Zykov on May 12, 2011 at 10:53 pm | permalink |
I tended to hire people with graduate degrees because it made my search easier. Usually, but not always, they were relatively ambitious, relatively focused, and relatively dedicated to the industry they had selected.
Posted by terri on May 13, 2011 at 2:00 pm | permalink |
The current fad of education is another form of hoarding.
12 years of high school, 4 years for a Bachelor, 3 years
for a Masters, 1 year of time in Kindergarten. Thats 20 years
to just get a job. 2 or 3 years post grad. Thats pushing 23
years in school. I don't get it?!?!????
Posted by Dave on May 14, 2011 at 3:51 pm | permalink |
I just viewed a 1 hour video ( http://inflation.us/videos.html ) from the National Inflation Association titled 'College Conspiracy' dated 5/14/11. I thought it was well composed, thought provoking, and relevant to this post.
Posted by Mark W. on May 15, 2011 at 10:01 am | permalink |
Thanks Mark! Decades ago I tried a year of Arts and Sciences. The delivery and pace of the courses were
not compatible to my learning style. I did complete a
2 year Diploma at a community college. I also took a
bunch of post secondary accredited career diplomas
correspondence. I figured this would be a good substitute
for a degree. There were always eccentric people that
spent years at university as professional students. Now
it is necessary to arm your self with double masters, Phds
6 Bachelors etc etc. This seems to be an addiction at an
infinite cost. I'm of the opinion an associate is all society should demand of an individual. If you can't get airborn with a Bachelors then the problem is something else not the need for more education.
Posted by Dave on May 15, 2011 at 3:24 pm | permalink |
Dave, I'm glad you enjoyed the video. I'm in agreement with much of your comment. However I think there are some professions which require extended education beyond the associate degree (e.g. – medical doctor). It just seems to me that too much weight is assigned to both undergraduate and graduate degrees as training for subsequent jobs. It's not only the time invested but also the enormous cost to the individual (or society in the form of grants, scholarships, etc.). Somebody is paying. I think we're all paying to tell you the truth. Colleges and universities can greatly improve their programs IMO by partnering with the private sector directly. Real life experience in the field with mentoring where students get college credit toward their degree. I think this approach would help students more accurately define their career before they graduated with a degree. It may even compress some programs from four years to 2 to 3 years. We won't know until we are willing to try some alternatives to the present system.
Posted by Mark W. on May 19, 2011 at 11:31 am | permalink |
Overall, I agree with you. I would like to point out that I'm thankful for those who go into professions like medicine, etc., because where would we be without doctors?
BUT, I think grad school for just about everything else is a waste of time and money. I may go so far as to say that undergraduate school is a waste for many. One thing I learned years after graduating with my BA is that your professors don't tell you that you'll be successful and earn lots of money IF you have the type of personality that thrives in business. I started out in journalism school and my instructors gave the impression that working in the news and/or advertising business was open to all grads. However, I'm an introverted person and found out (later, through real life working experience) that I don't have the personality traits of those who become stars in these industries. So I think often we're sold a bag of rocks in college and get unrealistic expectations about where we're headed. Then when the economy sucks and we end up working in jobs that only require a HS dipolma, we wonder WTF happened here?!
My second point is something I've actually discovered during the past six months. I started working for a small college and took advantage of free tuition. I'd been wanting to learn some new computer skills so I signed up for a couple of (undergrad level) classes — mostly for something to do. I also joined a computer software training website, lynda.com, that offers hundreds of online tutorials for $25/month. The $25 was a vastly better investment that the time I spent going to class. My teachers were horrible and I didn't learn much from them. I have learned a massive amount from lynda and her great instructors.
I think that those who have a passion to learn something will have the motivation needed for self-teaching. I can say now from experience that school is a dead end for me in terms of where I want to go in my career. And I don't need a degree to be successful and the thing that has brought me the greatest amount of career success — freelancing. I won't require grad school for myself.
Just my two cents. But this topic kind of got me reeved up because I've just completed those college classes and found them to be such a joke.
PS. Another thing: Your success and enjoyment will depend heavily on the instructor you get for a class — something that is often outside of your control. So imagine going into debt for horrible professors. Just another cent thrown in…
Posted by kc on May 15, 2011 at 6:00 pm | permalink |
Not quite sure why you are singling out Grad School, it is just one extra year, but instead of focusing on the first two years of a Four year degree. Why does one have to take two years of subject matter before getting to their desired field of study? It appears that the first two years of college is a waste of time and money with no payback, its the last two years that matter.
Posted by Dennis on May 18, 2011 at 12:06 am | permalink |
Penelope,
You are brazen and I love it!
After college I watched my friends scatter all over the country, many entering grad school, law school and med school. I honestly believed at that time (when I didn't know much of anything) that they were doing it for one of two reasons: 1)their parents were doctors or lawyers and expected the same from their kids, and 2) they had no flippin' idea what they wanted to do!
I went into the Marine Corps straight out of college and really think I got the better education. I learned about hard times, leadership, making decisions and just being responsible. Grad school won't teach you that.
It's time for more high school and college grads to take their lives into their own hands. If you're a parent, give 'em a Swift Kick in the right direction.
Carlos Cooper
Posted by Carlos Cooper on May 19, 2011 at 9:11 am | permalink |
A few years after college, when the opportunity arose, I started a business in retail and ran it for 6 years. Now I'm on my way to getting a 2nd Bachelor's in my 30's and hope to someday do research in Genetics. I started by taking one course earlier this year to confirm my interest. I'm basically starting over, but this time around, I'm enjoying the journey. My home loan is cheap and I currently don't have a car loan…so I'm more than happy to invest in my education via student loans because I am thoroughly enjoying the ability to focus on studying. I am hoping I do well enough to have my Master's and PhD covered by fellowships or assistantships in the future. I do have a family with 2 'lil ones and a teenager, so it won't be easy, but it is possible.
Posted by Jen W on May 26, 2011 at 5:15 pm | permalink |
Penelope, could not agree with you more: grad degrees are an enormous waste of time and money. This comes from someone who went to grad school (library science) after the dot com bust out of a lack of opportunities and not knowing what else to do. Creating my own opportunities out of my own interests and passions taught me far more than any classroom ever could.
Posted by Eric Berlin on May 31, 2011 at 1:52 am | permalink |
Thank you, thank you, thank you for this post! As someone who cannot afford to finish her BA, much less go to grad school, I really appreciate this. I have not let my lack of a degree stop me from pursuing what I love to do and even applying for jobs in those fields. Granted, I don't get many interviews, because people are still buying into the whole "must have a piece of paper to be a productive human being" BS.
For some fields, yes. You do need those advanced degrees, but for research assistant? Editorial assistant? Staff writer? Photographer? Receptionist? (Yes, really–I am seeing this stupid requirement for admin and receptionist positions!) No.
I love your blog, and I always appreciate your perspective. I am aware many people probably did not like this post, and I'm not going to share it on my Facebook wall, because I don't want to hear it from those among my friends who DID shell out for these degrees. (Just not in the mood today!)
Thank you for validating those of us who "have no papers, but are perfectly capable!"
Posted by Jen M. on June 10, 2011 at 11:29 am | permalink |
Very well said, your blog says it all about that particular topic."*,~" http://www.heelsvogue.com/ welcome
Posted by Amanda on July 5, 2011 at 8:29 pm | permalink |
I agree with you. I grew up being told that education is priceless and that I should get as much of it as I could. This still holds true – however, I realized that I can educate myself, there are tons of books at public libraries, you can always find people with whom to swap knowledge/skill, and on-the-job training is unparalleled in quality and relevance.
A few years ago, I did not see things this way. I made the romantic mistake of ignoring the financial return on my post-grad education. I thought that higher education was a "good" that I could justify consuming simply because it made me happy (just as some people buy expensive cars even though it's a horrible financial choice). Halfway through law school I realized that debt and poor job prospects are actually quite important things (aka. once I matured a bit more) and my values changed.
Knowing that I would have educational debt that equals a mortgage and an education which – as knowledgge – wasn't really worth $150k, convinced me that law school had been a poor decision. It was a mistake that cost me quite a bit, but you live, you learn.
There are fields for which higher education is required (i.e., law, medicine, academia), but I would strongly advise against getting yourself into debt using the justifications that "this is for personal fulfillment; I'm not in it for the money; I can transfer these skills, etc, etc." If you want to learn, read books, go to talks/seminars, get a job where you can pick up skills that will actually make you marketable – while getting paid! Once you feel the weight of debt on your shoulders, you'll be amazed at how much your values and perspective change.
If you decide to go ahead and pursue a post-grad degree, make sure that you research the profession that you're heading into. I made the mistake of researching the schools, but researched almost nothing about the job market for lawyers, their lifestyle, working conditions, etc. This was a huge mistake.
I was not aware about the glut of PhDs in the market until I read some other comments on here, but it seems like the US is just saturated with people with higher degrees and the financial returns on many of them are pretty darn poor.
I know some people are thinking — stop thinking about education as a financial investment, but I'm also sure many of those thinking that are the ones who went to school when the government still supported universities and before tuition grew double the pace of inflation. Things have changed a lot for my generation and we can't afford to live on the romantic highs that previous generations lived. Demographics have changed and the world around us has changed a lot. Maybe going back to the model that worked in this country some decades ago, where you picked up your skills at work, lived within your means, and companies promoted from within might not be such a bad thing.
Posted by Rick on July 14, 2011 at 8:05 am | permalink |
First of all, I would like to say that the thought of not paying for a MA or PhD is very appealing, but I will have to disagree. Continuing education is very important to our society and allows our population to be more educated in current events and social issues. As for people can teach themselves….not everyone has that ability to do so and I'm not sure if relying on people to pick out their own material is such a bright idea either, considering anyone can write a book these days and some authors can be very extreme and skewed on their opinion.
Also, how do you compete with someone that has a higher education, unless you've worker for years. I find that having invested in a MA or PhD allows you to skip the steps of a person that has a lower education. Having a BA is not cutting it these days with most jobs.
I respect your opinion, but I don't think it can be generalized and applied to every academic field. If you're serious about your field than I believe its a great investment. I do recommend that people work before they further their education, since you don't want to invest your time and money in a field you later realize you don't have a strong interest in.
Posted by Stephanie on July 26, 2011 at 12:08 pm | permalink |
I decided to go to graduate school in order to take a break
from the corporate world and absorb new perspectives that are feeding my soul. After 15 years of working professionally in my field (product design), I was accepted to Stanford on a fellowship that covers 75% of all my expenses (school and living). I am almost 40 years old, a new mom and a second year student. Graduate school doesn't have to be a drain on your finances if what you bring to the table is as valuable as what you are signing up to learn. I think going back to school as an "older student" can be tremendously invigorating in an intellectual and spiritual way.
Posted by Jules Sherman on August 28, 2011 at 5:37 pm | permalink |
I just wanted to throw out a question: Why did you attend graduate school, Penelope?
Posted by Tamar Harrington on August 29, 2011 at 1:32 am | permalink |
I'm inclined to agree with you, Penelope, but for one thing: my grad school experience was not only rewarding, but also a complete success as an investment. Admittedly, I'm still not in love with my career (finance manager), but I've gotten a couple of nice raises, owe no money for my MBA and I'm finally in a position where I believe I could branch out into an area I find more fulfilling. Still, I agree with almost everything you've said.
Posted by Joel A. on September 26, 2011 at 10:23 pm | permalink |
Well, I just want to say that James Altucher is ridiculous. That guy doesn't believe in global warming or following the constitution. Without schools, and even graduate schools, our world would be full of idiots. Nobody without a graduate degree has any skills to teach a college course or a medical school course.
Posted by Jon on October 1, 2011 at 1:37 am | permalink |
Graduate school can be a massive waste of time and money. I know quite a few people who have gone on to graduate school because they don't know what to do with their lives, don't want to grow up, enjoy being students, etc.
I went to grad school because I wanted and needed to learn more. At 28 years old, I am now a specialist and one of very few people in the world with my knowledge and skills. My career (research scientist) is not available to people without a graduate degree and this is not due to "skills" that I picked up at grad school but because of specific knowledge that I was taught and now apply every day (no exaggeration) at my job.
Two years ago, I was an indebted grad student. I had to move back in with my parents because I couldn't afford my rent while I was looking for a job.
I was hired by a large multinational corporation a year and a half ago. The company paid to have me relocated from North America to Europe. I have paid off all of my debt and have started saving. I bought my first home. My salary is higher than my Mom's (an HR manager close to retirement). Financially, I am in the same position as my friends with Bachelor's degrees, except that I will be earning more than them in the years to come. I am enjoying traveling around Europe. I am very grateful for the opportunities my graduate degree has given me.
Posted by Angela on October 1, 2011 at 5:50 pm | permalink |
I don't know if I care about the degree itself, but I'm really glad I went to grad school. It was super intense and project-based. It gave me the chance to develop strategic thinking on a number of national brands, interact directly with clients, and learn from the celebrities of the advertising industry.
Grad school didn't give me talent or creativity, but it did give me the vocabulary, tools, and connections I needed to be fabulous.
Posted by Amit Gurnani on October 5, 2011 at 8:32 am | permalink |
I have a specific reason for going to graduate school. My goal is to one day become a school counselor which requires a graduate degree. I really don't think one can say that in all cases grad school is a waste of time and money especially if it is a stepping stone to accomplishing other goals in your life.
Posted by Deena on November 1, 2011 at 10:07 am | permalink |
I'm sure Jay-Z's thrilled that you think he can engage in critical thought. (By the way, a note on style – that bit of your post read a *lot* like an undergrad cultural studies paper.)
However, as far as I'm aware, Jay-Z isn't currently licensed to practice law.
Posted by Greenyodles on November 25, 2011 at 1:37 am | permalink |
It sounds so simple. Yet people drop out of medical, law, business, and other graduate programs in droves. Sure, some of these dropouts will tell you that life just got in the way (a baby was born, a relative became gravely ill, the tuition was too great). But many others will say that they came to realize that the discipline they were studying was, in fact, not their cup of tea. Imagine the debt they could have avoided and the time they could have saved if only they had audited a class on the topic first. Besides giving you a crash course in your field of choice, a one-day or weekend-long conference will educate you on some of the biggest issues professionals in the field face and offer you a far more effective way to network with workers in the trenches than the old "Can I take you to coffee and pick your brain?" routine. Obviously, secondhand experience only goes so far. The best way to see what it's really like to work in a hospital, at a magazine, or at a landscape design firm is to really work at one.Cheers!
Top School Graduate
http://www.topgraduateschool.org/
Posted by Anonymous on November 28, 2011 at 12:24 am | permalink |
To the people who are bashing graduate school, it's not that simple. And to the woman who said something about parents feeling better about saying "my child is in graduate school" than "my child is waiting tables," I hope you're not a parent. Because you obviously missed the day in parenting school where they taught people how to embrace and love your children, no matter who they are or what they do with their lives.
As far as I'm concerned, if someone is working in any legal, legitimate job, they are making a contribution to society. There's no shame in waiting tables – which the woman who posted about parents being embarrassed about their children waiting tables obviously doesn't know. Our economy is in an unprecedented downturn, so part of the problem is that older people cannot fathom why younger people are struggling. But guess what? The reason is because the economy sucks and no one is hiring. Older workers aren't leaving their jobs, which means that young people are waiting longer to assume those positions they are qualified to take but cannot take due to the economic slowdown which resulted in longer work careers for older people. And those in the middle find themselves unable to get raises, career advancement. In short, we're all stuck right now. The recession impacted everyone, in pretty much every field. Including people in business.
I went back to school to get my master's degree because I saw two options: work at my employer until I retired in a job I hated with a boss I didn't like, or take the risk and get a master's, which is basically necessary in my field for higher-level jobs. (I work in the health field.) So I evaluated the costs and benefits and chose the program that cost the least money, where I'll incur the least debt. And out of this master's degree I'll get a wide range of meaningful, employable skills that will give me an edge when jobs open up in my field.
Also, I went back to school because I have an idea that I want to have a career in health research – so it's basically mandatory for me to have at least a master's degree.
I hope this post put some sense back into the conversation. I read some of these comments and I knew things were getting too crazy for my taste, so I had to put some sense back in there.
Thanks
Posted by Chris on December 3, 2011 at 7:56 pm | permalink |
Something else I forgot: depending on the graduate school one chooses, there are other "soft" benefits to entering a graduate program as well. These include: a network of alumni who instantly give you more attention because you attended their school, connections that you make with professors in your graduate program that you can work to your advantage when looking for employment, and an established career services program that assists students in finding jobs.
So despite Penelope's insistence upon making what appears to be a career out of bashing graduate school, it's really not as simple as she makes it sound, with all due respect. I think this website could offer more of value if it featured a reasonable, well-argued analysis of the costs versus the benefits of attending graduate school. And it DEFINITELY isn't only a place where people go if they don't want to grow up. My colleagues in my graduate program – and I do refer to them as my colleagues – are among the most professional and capable people that I know. Perhaps if Ms. Trunk took some time to meet more graduate students and get a larger sample size, she wouldn't be so adamantly opposed to graduate school?
Posted by Chris on December 3, 2011 at 8:10 pm | permalink |
Posted by Diana on May 9, 2011 at 6:46 pm | permalink | Reply
"I'm a clinical neuropsychologist, absolutely need my Ph.D. to do this job, and love my job, have no plan to leave ever. It's my dream job actually, personally fulfilling, highly paid (I have stable salary for my work on staff at a hospital), and I only work 40 hours per week. Top that!"
Okay: an elementary school teacher, 2 week Christmas holiday off, March break off, Summers off, great pay, high level of autonomy, 5 hr. work days, great pay & benefits, great job security for life, and all you need is a BA (or) BS + B.Ed. and Bob's your uncle!!
Posted by Cynthia on January 6, 2012 at 10:19 am | permalink |
I totally agree with Cynthia.
And teaching is one of the very few careers (although it is a profession) where you can actually make a positive difference in the world!!
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Posted by miss eliotte on February 15, 2012 at 6:28 am | permalink |