You can’t manage your work life if you can’t talk about it

Recently I ran the following twitter:

“I’m in a board meeting. Having a miscarriage. Thank goodness, because there’s a fucked-up 3-week hoop-jump to have an abortion in Wisconsin.”

Why the uproar over this twitter?

Not only have bloggers written whole posts about the disgustingness of it, but 70 people unfollowed me, and people actually came to my blog and wrote complaints about the twitter on random, unrelated posts.

So, to all of you who think the twitter was outrageous, think about this:

Most miscarriages happen at work. Twenty-five percent of pregnancies end in miscarriage. Seventy-five percent of women who are of child-bearing age are working. Most miscarriages run their course over weeks. Even if you are someone who wanted the baby and are devastated by the loss, you’re not going to sit in bed for weeks. You are going to pick up your life and get back to it, which includes going back to work.

This means that there are thousands of miscarriages in progress, at work, on any given day. That we don’t acknowledge this is absurd. That it is such a common occurrence and no one thinks it’s okay to talk about is terrible for women.

Throughout history, the way women have gained control of the female experience is to talk about what is happening, and what it’s like. We see that women’s lives are more enjoyable, more full, and women are more able to summon resilience when women talk openly about their lives.

To all of you who said a miscarriage is gross: Are you unaware that the same blood you expel from a miscarriage is what you expel during menstruation? Are you aware that many people are having sex during menstruation and getting it on the sheets? Are you aware that many women actually like period sex? Wait. Here is a link I love, at askmen.com, telling men that women like it so much that men need to be aware of this preference.

To all of you who are aghast that I let myself get pregnant: having sex is playing with odds. There are no 100% sure methods of birth control. I am 42 years old. The likelihood of someone my age getting pregnant even with fertility treatment is less than 5%. The likelihood that a pregnancy in someone my age ends in a miscarriage is almost 75%. This means that even if I had done nothing for birth control it would have been as effective as a 25-year-old using a condom. So everyone who is complaining that I’m an idiot for getting pregnant should go buy a calculator.

To all of you who said I should not be happy about having a miscarriage: You are the ones short on empathy. Any woman who is pregnant but wishes she weren’t would of course be grateful when she has a miscarriage. Yes, there are many women who want the baby and have a miscarriage. I was one of them. I cried for days. I get it.

But if you have ever had an abortion, which I have, you would know that a miscarriage is preferable to an abortion. Even the Pope would agree with that.

And what is up with the fact that just one, single person commented about how Wisconsin has a three-week waiting period for abortions? It is absolutely outrageous how difficult it was going to be for me to get an abortion, and it’s outrageous that no one is outraged.

Wisconsin is one of twelve states that have 24-hour waiting periods. This puts a huge burden on an overworked system. These are also the states where there are few ways to get an abortion. For example, in Wisconsin, the only place to get abortion that is covered by insurance is at a Planned Parenthood clinic. There are 3 of them in all of Wisconsin. In Chicago, you can get an abortion at Planned Parenthood with less than 24 hours notice. In Wisconsin, there is a week and a half wait to get the first meeting and a week and half wait to get the abortion.

A digression: I’m linking to Planned Parenthood so everyone can make a donation. This organization is enabling women to have the right to abortion. Planned Parenthood seems to be the only effective, community-level force against states that are attempting to legislate the choice into oblivion.

To all of you who think this has nothing to do with work:

I think what really upsets people is the topic. We are not used to talking about the female experience, and especially not in the context of work. But so what? We can start now. The female experience is part of work. What we talk about when we talk about work defines how we integrate work into our lives. If work is going to support our lives, then we need to talk about how our lives interact with work. We need to be honest about the interaction if we hope to be honest about our work.

772 replies
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  1. Kate
    Kate says:

    please repost, w/comments if possible…. someone has sabotaged this page… I can’t see it, can see all the other posts on your page. Women can/will never be equal to men if they cannot maintain reproductive freedom. Period. Most people who are anti-abortion are men, brainwashed by religion people, or women who have few aspirations for themselves and resent accomplished women.

    • Ian
      Ian says:

      You just have to wait for the posts to load.

      And Penny’s 3 week waiting period is crap. She’s rich, as she keeps telling us, so why not just get the OB=GYN to scrape it out? Or get on a plane to Chicago?

  2. Ab
    Ab says:

    You have a right to be for or against abortion. But to talk about it or miscarriage in such a cavalier fashion, like it’s just another ordinary event or surgical procedure, that I find very difficult to stomach. It leads me to the conclusion that the person concerned takes few things in life as sacred.

    • Charlie
      Charlie says:

      The person in question happens to be a practicing, observant Jew, a fact that I picked up just by reading a few more of her tweets.

      Just because she doesn’t adhere to what you see as sacred, doesn’t mean there is nothing sacred.

  3. Phil
    Phil says:

    While it wasn’t necessary for you get to an abortion, it is people like you that give abortion such a bad name. Had you gotten one, it would have been what, your 3rd one? Give me a break, you are that girl in college everyone knew who used abortion as birth control.

    What I find even more sickening is how you are trying to manipulate birth control data to justify you not using any. You sound like an 18 year old. Maybe if for once in your life you took some responsibility and either closed your legs or used birth control, you wouldn’t run into such issues. Being the big fan of children we all know you are, I would hate for another one to inconvenience your life/career. Your only priority in life is for people to think you are a big shot and for men to lust after you. You are an 18 year old girl in the body of a 40 year old. It’s time to grow up Penelope. Perhaps one day you will actually have enough work experience to give career advice and maybe then people will read your blog for that instead of coming to it to witness your train wreck of a life. Sorry to be blunt, but your friends and admirers do you wrong by candy coating everything and reassuring you that you are relevant in the business world.

    • rich (richmanwisco)
      rich (richmanwisco) says:

      Wow Phil, that was easy to say for you, wasn’t it? You seem to have it made, a perfect life for sure. You have it all figured out. So why are you here, on this page, passing judgment over things you know so very little about?

      • Phil
        Phil says:

        It was easy to say Rich. It’s very easy to pass judgment when someone spills every detail of their life on a blog. I’m sorry, but almost 3 abortions in adulthood should be criticized when it is being used as a form of birth control, but instead the flock wants to pacify PT. Coddling PT only encourages her continual narcissistic behavior. All of PT’s “heartaches and struggles” are caused by her. You can only feel sorry for someone so many times.

  4. rebecca
    rebecca says:

    Lots of comments here. Not necessary for me to pile on. Except to say… Penelope your writing is always honest and straightforward. It it can very accurately portray women’s issues. Everything you said rings super true to me. Straight up and reasonable. I am glad you brought the whole thing up. As a 47-year-old woman with one 11-year old child…. I would feel EXACTLY the same way. And it would always be at work.

  5. jim
    jim says:

    More troll bait from the ex-CEO (I don’t believe for a minute that stepping down was your choice – think your investors have finally wised up). Coming up on 300 comments, mostly from your sheeple – well-done!

  6. Candace
    Candace says:

    Did I understand accurately from the previous comment to mean that Pen has stepped down from her job? However it came about, it is certainly a good thing. Never a more crass, insensitive remark has been made. Good work, Penelope. You scored.

  7. Juniper
    Juniper says:

    I came to this site from a PP link on facebook. It isn’t a perfect metaphor; however, a friend of mine recently posted that one of her twins she is pregnant with died. She will carry that twin to full term, as there is no other choice. She is, in effect, miscarrying for hopefully 3 months (to afford the other fetus the chance to go full term).

    At first I questioned posting something so personal on her FB status, but then I realized, as she and I have grown apart, I would not have known and could not offer her my love and support (as, I am sure, many of her other friends will as well). She was reaching out.

    I am naive. I have always had an IUD as I don’t want kids, and after 18 years of sexual activity, have not faced an unwanted pregnancy. I have been lucky. I did not realize that a miscarriage wasn’t instantaneous. I never thought about it. It isn’t something that is discussed. Thanks to your post I have learned a great deal about the issue and now wonder how many women I have worked with were going through such a nightmare alone at work (be the pregnancy wanted or not, I am very very pro choice as we can never know all of the details of another person’s life and should not seek to make all encompassing choices about something so personal.)

    If someone is losing a spouse or a child (note: not a fetus) or is going through divorce, the workplace often knows and most people will offer support or understanding. But a woman suffering a miscarriage suffers alone. Thank you for opening my eyes to this issue. I think, regardless of your verbiage, you opened a door to some very important discourse.

  8. chris
    chris says:

    very reasonable posting–informative, even. and yes, it is outrageous that women have to jump through hoops for basic medical care.

    btw, some of the most savy, intelligent women i know have become pregnant unintentionally. i’m talking world-renowned scholars and leaders in their fields. getting pregnant when you don’t want to isn’t ‘stupid’–it has no relation to intelligence whatsoever. one of the tragedies of unwanted pregnancy is how it makes decent people feel guilty and bad and stupid for something that really should not be all that big a deal.

    i am not offended by what you wrote at all; and i feel like i know a little bit more about how other people experience their worlds because of it. twitter as a medium, however, is a bit annoying….

  9. Ken
    Ken says:

    Your blog makes the claim, “In a review of this blog, Business Week called Penelope’s writing “poetic.”

    I think Business Week make call this blog as “Being written in an unrefined ladylike manner, lacking both tact and taste; extremely blunt and offensive, illustrating very crude and mannerless remarks, and characterized by a uncultured simplicity; generally lacking in sophistication or subtlety.”

    This bog author has tried to increase adverising revenue by pressing the similiar “hot buttons” used by the CBS television show “The Good Wife.” Full of drama, poor content for the educated.

  10. Danielle Buffardi
    Danielle Buffardi says:

    Between all your selfish abortions and now your induced miscarriage…which is an abortion…I have two things to say.

    You’re a MESS. And you need to have your tubes tied. Seriously.

  11. N
    N says:

    Not sure why everybody who is so outraged by P’s post even takes their time to comment. Anybody who has been reading her blog should know that she is brutally honest and extremely personal while writing about work and life. If you don’t like the blog or her twitter, stop reading it, no one is forcing you.
    I love all of your posts Penelope no matter how personal they are. Ignore everyone’s comments and keep doing what you’re doing.

  12. Alison
    Alison says:

    Thank you for talking about all of this. In 1997, when I wa 26 years old, I found myself pregnant, and not sure which of the two men I had been with was the father. I was 26 years old, had a master’s degree and a career, a broken condom one week, and a date rape a week later. Typical slut as defined by the right wing. To make matters worse, I lived in Utah. I was lucky. I had a private physician who was a gynecologist and women’s health specialist. She did not practice obstetrics. She believed abortion should be safe, legal, private and affordable. The pregnancy was confirmed at a week after my missed period. I made an appointment for an abortion at 4 weeks, the earliest clinically possible. My doctor and all of her staff were compassionate, understanding and professional. She performed the abortion, confirmed the “products of conception” under a microscope and sent me home. I had been so brainwashed by the anti-choice activists that I believed it would be a big procedure and had arranged the proceure when I had several days off and for a friend to drive me. I didn’t need either. I had less bleeding than a normal period, and less pain and cramping as well.
    Two months later my married 33 year old sister had a miscarriage of her 3rd pregnancy at at 16 weeks while she was in the shower.
    She collected the remains and had them examined at her OB’s office outside of London where she lived. She told me she was suprised that she couldn’t see “the baby” in the blood and tissue. She believed the posters she had seen of “abortions of 8 week old” fetus who looked like fully formed full term babies, the size of a kitten. I had a BS in biology and knew better, and photocopied some of my textbooks documenting fetal development for her. My sister is not uneducated or unintelligent. Just brainwashed by a religious community who plays with the truth and fakes pictures to suit their political agenda.

    The fact that we talk endlessly about hooking up, cougars and girls gone wild, but are uncomfortable talking about another reality of the feminine experience is shameful and backward.

    I challenge every woman who has ever had an abortion or a miscarriage of an unwanted pregnancy to talk about it, twitter about it, discuss it.

    30 years ago, we didn’t discuss our periods in public. Now, feminine products are advertised on television.

    The right wing will continue to be successful in their propaganda campaigns using fake gory pictures and scare tactics if we don’t tell the truth.

    • KateNonymous
      KateNonymous says:

      “The fact that we talk endlessly about hooking up, cougars and girls gone wild, but are uncomfortable talking about another reality of the feminine experience is shameful and backward.”

      This is a wonderful point, Alison.

  13. s
    s says:

    As for people commenting on the “callousness” of the tweet– Penelope, and any woman in her situation, gets to feel however she feels about having a miscarriage. Or abortion. Or pregnancy in general.

    Penelope, thank you for sharing your response to such a personal experience (including your outrage over Wisconsin’s abortion access). No one has the right to dictate the tone you take. I think you did us all a favor– the more women speak openly about the various ways we experience these (extremely common) facts of life, the more basis we have for demanding the support, respect and empathy such experiences warrant.

  14. colleen
    colleen says:

    Before reading this I was going to unsubscribe just because I don’t have time to read my emails anymore. But I’m so glad I glanced at this – I’m going to stay subscribed.

    The fact that you’re unafraid to talk about women’s sexual health and to unabashedly lay out the facts, and to call things as they are, is inspiring. Good for you!!

    And yes, everyone should support planned parenthood!

  15. Robin
    Robin says:

    I had a miscarriage at work and quite frankly, most likely as a result of work. Because of work, I’ve put off having a child and now am deemed unable to do so by multiple specialists. I had an abortion because of work – I had just started a new job and was worried with good cause I would lose it because I had gotten pregnant. I would love to try IVF, even though I’ve been told my 39-year-old eggs are already rotten, but I can’t. Neither of my most recent jobs’ insurance plans covered even a dime of the some $20,000 cost, and thanks to losing this last job, I can’t even fathom trying to pay for it out of pocket. Women are persecuted for their choices, their lack thereof and most especially for discussing them. I want a baby more than anything, but it’s not going to happen and I can’t talk about it because it makes people too uncomfortable. Thanks to you, Penelope, I may just decide to make them squirm a bit the next time I’m asked why my husband and I don’t have kids.

  16. John Wilder
    John Wilder says:

    Caitlin responded to me and explained that eagles are an endangered species but human beings are most certainly not.

    You illustrate my point for me so well. My point is how little value some people place on human beings. According to Caitlin, since human beings are not an endangered species
    it is okay to kill them. She conveniently neglected my other reference about killing unwanted puppies by ripping them limb from limb. Puppies are not endangered either so it should then be okay to rip puppies apart according to Caitlin.

    She conveniently ignored my post about Penelope’s dad and you taking his choice away because he wanted sex with his own daughter.

    By selectively answering one point out of context, you attempt to obfuscate the logic and substitute “feelings” as all you pro abortion proponents do.

    Again, women are attempting to play God and deciding what choice we are allowed to have. There are things that are intrinsically wrong.

    By the way, Ms Trunk is a practicing Jew. Jews rightfully lament the Holocaust and yet they are one of the few mainstream religions that support abortion. You might also know that in Old Testament times, there was a law called PATERFAMILIAS that allowed a Jewish father to kill his own children up until they were 13 when Jews recognized that these children became legal people. During times of siege when enemy armies had them trapped behind city walls to starve them out, they killed and ate their own children to survive. Also, while they did not have abortion at the time, they had a false god called Moloch. The Jews sacrificed to this god by building bon fires and tossing unwanted childen into the fire alive.

    All of this is historical fact that you can fact check for yourself. Solomon was right when he said: “There is nothing new under the sun”.

    • Kay Lorraine
      Kay Lorraine says:

      I must stop reading this string now because it has gone from interesting to irritating to simply spewing anti-semitic lies. As a practicing Jew on the eve of Yom Kippur, the hardest thinging I must do today is that I must go to synagogue at sunset and forgive John Wilder for propagating this blasphemy. Enough.

    • Sidney
      Sidney says:

      John,

      PATERFAMILIAS was Roman, big guy. Not Jewish…ah, the true conservative racism comes out. Thanks for being, well, hateful. Not to mention, ignorant because the practice you described as Moloch (could be a God, could be the type of sacrifice) is in dispute…and if practiced was condemned by Yahweh in scripture.

      But you just keep swpewing your hatred, oh persecuted one. Karma, as well chickens, always come to roost. Hope you and Dan have a nice evening together (sex hypocrisy being so, well, conservative like and everything).

      Sidney

  17. Katy
    Katy says:

    Thank you to Kay Lorraine for an awesome summary and for pointing out “the point”. I think you’re right, the comments really do prove the original point (I myself found myself compelled to comment previously not on Penelope’s original post, but on the comments afterword…for better or worse.)

    And thank you to Penelope. You’re right. These things need to be discussed. And for what it’s worth I see nothing “flippant” in your attitude. We should be thanking you for doing the dirty work for us of being so honest and provoking us to think about these things…sad that this is usually such a thankless position ;)

  18. Katy
    Katy says:

    Thank you to Kay Lorraine for an awesome summary and for pointing out “the point”. I think you’re right, the comments really do prove the original point (I myself found myself compelled to comment previously not on Penelope’s original post, but on the comments afterword…for better or worse.)

    And thank you to Penelope. You’re right. These things need to be discussed. And for what it’s worth I see nothing “flippant” in your attitude. We should be thanking you for doing the dirty work for us of being so honest and provoking us to think about these things…sad that this is usually such a thankless position ;)

    For what it’s worth I have women friends both “liberal” and “conservative” who read your post and cheered.

  19. Kristin
    Kristin says:

    What did the farmer have to say about it? Does this change the decisions you two were making about your relationship?

  20. David Mech
    David Mech says:

    First, I am a huge supporter of the first amendment and believe that people should be able to say whatever they like, and I fully support your ability to talk about miscarriages, abortions, or anything else you like. We don’t need the first amendment to protect us from speech already find acceptable.

    Second, Planned Parenthood is an amazing organization doing wonderful things for women all around the world. I hope everyone reading this will contribute to their services, as well as Marie Stopes International.

    Third, regarding pregnancy rates, there actually is a 100% effective method of birth control. It is called a tubal-ligation for women and a vasectomy for men, or more commonly referred to as sterilization. Further, your data about condom effectiveness is incorrect. Assuming your data is correct, 75% of 5% is still 3.75%, which is actually almost 4 times more likely than using a condom, which is 99% effective. The birth control pill is also 99% effective, taken correctly.

    I also believe that your 5% odds of getting pregnant at age 42 is very conservative; the odds are much higher than that. Sure it may be 5% for age 40+, which also includes 60 year olds, but keep in mind that an average is just that, and younger women are more fertile, so you being at the lower end of the 40+ (40-99?) spectrum puts you at the higher end of the data points being calculated in the 40+ average.

    Fourth, your notion that a 24-hr waiting period someone backlogs abortion clinics is also baseless. All it does is move all the abortions back 24-hrs. A backlog could only be created by increasing the number of people wanting abortions or by reducing the number of providers offering the service. Adding a 24 hour waiting period makes sense as it forces an individual to think about a decision they will make that will effect the rest of their lives. Personally I think a 7 day waiting period would be even better, and I’m very much pro-choice. I feel a 3-months is excessive and I’m surprised this is the case in Wisconsin. For some reason I don’t really believe that.

    Lastly, For women that want to have sex on their periods, all you need to do is insert a natural sea sponge into your vagina and then remove it after sex. There will be no blood at all. During menstruation, many women use natural sea sponges instead of tampons because sponges are all natural and don’t use any chemicals, eliminating the risk of toxic shock syndrome (TSS) – example link below: http://www.jadeandpearl.com/catalog/index.php

  21. Jade
    Jade says:

    Keep talking Penelope – about EVERYTHING. Not only do you have a right to, you give thousands of women a voice when you tackle issues like this.

    I hope you recover well. x

  22. Tracey
    Tracey says:

    Brilliant post, Penelope. You are right about the need for speaking the truth. You are right about the incoherence in abortion laws. Right about the silliness of calling miscarriage (or talking about it) gross. Right too about the work/not work boundary – how important it is to have one that doesn’t exclude being human, alive, in pain, whatever.

    I find that repression almost always leads to bad results – less efficiency, passive aggressive behavior, etc. Self awareness and being able to talk about the important things in life make us stronger: better at work and better at home.

  23. Natalie
    Natalie says:

    I feel like leaving a comment just to show you support. Well written, well tweeted by you. Why can’t we talk about miscarriage in a world where erectile dysfunction is discussed (via commercials) almost 24-7?
    And I’m pretty outraged at the status of access to abortion in your state. Keep up the great writing!

  24. maureen
    maureen says:

    I think it’s outrageous that any woman has to wait 3 weeks to obtain a safe and legal medical procedure. I am also worried about the lack of providers in many states. No one wants to have an abortion. It’s not an easy thing. It’s also not easy to parent a child or give one up for adoption. It’s all so messy and emotional. That’s why people would rather not discuss it. I am glad that you talked about this in context of your work. Keep writing and I will keep fighting to make sure women have access to the help they need at a vulnerable time in their lives. I am also sorry for your loss because despite everything it is a loss.

  25. John Wilder
    John Wilder says:

    This comment is addressed to Kay Lorraine and anyone else who thinks my comments were anti-Semitic. I in no way meant to convey an anti-Semitic mentality. The Jews were God’s chosen people. I detest prejudice and bigotry of ANY KIND ESPECIALLY TO THE DEFENSELESS HELPLESS UNBORN CHILDREN.

    What I mean to point out is that Jews neglect or don’t know this dark period in their history. It is not blasphemy to bring it up and you can’t just declare that it is lies because you don’t like it. It is actual historical fact and you can look it up. The easiest place to look it up is in the Old Testament. In the New Testament when the Jewish rabbis asked Jesus who would be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, Jesus said it was the little children. This was a huge slap in the face to the Jews because of their paterfamilias law. The whole idea of Bar Mitzvah is that a boy becomes not only a man, but a person in the eyes of Jewish law. Prior to that, there were no protections for children.

    That is why it is hypocritical for practicing Jews to be pro abortion. They have decided that unborn children are not people, like Hitler declared the Jews untermensch (sub human) and like the Dredd Scott decision of the Supreme Court declared blacks sub human and not deserving of protection under the law as citizens. It is bigotry in the worst and entirely hypocritical.

    You can call me names because that is what liberals do, but I am not blaspheming, nor am I anti-Semitic, nor am I bigoted in any way.

    Liberals have a hard time dealing with facts and logic because their language is all in “feelings”. The Jews can’t escape their past no more than Christians can for the horrors done in their past like the Salem witch burnings and the Great Crusades.

    The key is that we need to learn from our mistakes and we are not, we keep making the same ones. That is why Solomon said in the book of Ecclesiastes: “That there is nothing new under the sun.”

    • Anthony
      Anthony says:

      John, this and your previous post are nothing but ad hominem. The argument the Jews make, if I understand correctly, is that the soul does not enter the body until the baby takes it’s first breath. Thus,life, in the spiritual sense, does not occur until the baby is born under Jewish beliefs. What ancient Jews did or did not do has absolutely no bearing on whether or not this theological argument is correct. Futhermore, unless Jesus himself said something about when life begins, even proving that Jesus is God and that the Jews are incorrect still does nothing to disprove the argument. Since you can’t objectively prove that Jesus was God, you can not even use this as a firm basis for an argument with the Jews. You can claim they are denying Christ, and they can with equal impunity call you a heretic and idolater.

      Furthermore, your comparison of the Jews to Nazi’s is a red herring and an appeal to emotion. In order for your argument to be valid, you must first establish that the fetus is in fact a human in the moral and in this case theological sense. As shown above, you have simply demonstrated that you believe that the fetus gains a soul and thus becomes a human at conception. This belief is the very thing in dispute. Your argument about Jews vs Nazi’s is thus begging the question.

      Aside for the Jewish issue, there is also the issue of the constant ‘guilt by association’ fallacy that you keep employing with respect to liberals. Liberals are not one homogenous group. Bad behavior or irrational thinking by some liberals does not by any means imply that all or even most liberals are guilty of such behaviors. Along this same vein, an individual’s stance on abortion is not the soul determinant of what one’s overall political ideology is. At best they demonstrate that someone is a civil libertarian, someone who believes that the government should not be involved in someone’s personal life. This label applies equally well to both libertarians, who are conservative in their views on economics, and liberals who tend to be economic interventionalists. Also, their are people who are liberals who do not believe in abortion. They are pro well fare, pro government regulation, but also believe as you do that a fetus is a human life and deserves protection. Your attacks on ‘liberal behavior’ are thus moot.

      What is worse, though, is that I suspect that your complaints about liberals are in reality yet another logical fallacy in the making. The implicit argument is that Liberals insult people, but conservatives do not, therefore conservatives are more virtuous and intelligent, therefore they must be right. Liberals are immoral and stupid, and therefore wrong. Depending on which track is taken, this is either an appeal to authority or another ad hominem attack respectively.

      • Mary
        Mary says:

        Consider the following, to better understand your logical fallacy statement.

        Begging the question isn’t related to the Circular Reasoning. The distinction between the two concepts is as follows: Circular Reasoning is the basing of two conclusions by means of which there is demonstrated a reversed premise of the first argument. It is usually accepted, though, to use the term begging the question in place of circular argument.

        Begging the question is also related to the Fallacy of many questions: a fallacy of technique that results from presenting evidence in support of a conclusion that is less likely to be accepted than merely asserting the conclusion.

        A specific form of this is reducing an assertion to an instance of a more general assertion which is no more known to be true than the more specific assertion:

        All intentional acts of killing human beings are morally wrong.

        The death penalty is an intentional act of killing a human being.

        Therefore the death penalty is wrong.

        If the first premise is accepted as an axiom within some moral system or code, this reasoning is a cogent argument against the death penalty. If not, it is in fact a weaker argument than a mere assertion that the death penalty is wrong, since the first premise is stronger than the conclusion.

        Indeed, a lot of fallacy floating around.

  26. Jenn T
    Jenn T says:

    During my first pregnancy, I called in sick one day to take care of two important things – my first u/s and a job interview – in two parts, at two separate locations, with a total of 8 partners. In that order.

    Well, I learned that I was experiencing a missed miscarriage at that first appointment that morning, but couldn’t see how I could reschedule this important interview.

    I shut down, had my poor husband call the waiting grandmas-to-be and tell them the news – and not to call me until after 4p – and went to my interviews. For me the m/c was a terrible, sad experience, and I fell apart as I was pulling into my driveway.

    So, while we have completely different experiences of m/s, you’re absolutely right that it is an issue that has a lot of impact on women’s working lives.

  27. Sara
    Sara says:

    Thank you for sharing your honest reaction to your miscarriage. I’m appalled that some people would tell you how you “should” feel about this. As you pointed out, you did have a miscarriage which grieved you because you wanted a child. In this instance you did not – why would you be sad about it? I’m deeply sorry for women who have miscarriages when they desperately want to have a baby, but that is YOUR experience, your life, your feelings. It is not callous for a woman to feel relieved about a miscarriage, just like it’s not callous for a woman to choose an abortion – rather, by acknowledging the TRUTH of her feelings she’s taking ownership of her body and her reproductive processes. I’m 23 – if I got pregnant tomorrow, you can bet I’d be praying for a miscarriage/have an abortion (fortunately I live in Brooklyn, so it’s not too hard to find a clinic). Don’t judge. Thank you, Penelope, for acknowledging your experience, acknowledging the very ordinariness (in the sense that it happens all the time) of miscarrying.

  28. John Wilder
    John Wilder says:

    Just a follow-up. In the New Testament, the Greek word for a fetus was the same as a newborn or even a toddler or young child. The word was BREPHOS. Those words are all translated the same from the same Greek word. There was no differentiation in language or law of the time, children had no protections until they were 13.

  29. Kari
    Kari says:

    Count me as another person who was happy and relieved to have a miscarriage. It meant that the money scraped together to pay for the abortion could be used for fun things like paying the gas bill, paying the electric bill, and buying groceries.

    I was using birth control – but the condom broke.

    I was not on the pill (and still am not) because I have congenital cardiovascular defects/problems which mean that I cannot safely use any kind of hormone based birth control. (And probably cannot safely carry a pregnancy either, so I will always choose abortion in that event.)

    I would love to get my tubes tied but cannot find a doctor who would agree to permanently sterilize a young woman who does not have children. (Even though the young woman in question has the above mentioned serious medical conditions.) In fact, one doctor I tried told me to come back when I had two kids, and then he would tie my tubes. Helpful, huh?

    Hm. I guess my points are:

    1) Penelope, I hope that you are doing all right and thanks for bringing up such a painful and controversial subject.

    2) A lot of people in the comments seem to be making a LOT of assumptions and making a LOT of rather nasty judgments based on those assumptions.

    3) Everyone is different. You (generic you) cannot tell someone else how to think, feel, act, and make decisions because you are not that person. I would not presume to do so for (generic) you, so why do you feel that you can presume to do so for me?

  30. Bianca
    Bianca says:

    At the end of the day, how Penelope feels and reacts are entirely her experiences. She puts it out there for her readers to reflect. I’m glad to hear different viewpoints and while PT’s posts are great, the discourse is why I read her blog. Here’s a thought that occurred to me as I was reading…maybe there are some women who don’t feel any love or any connection whatsoever for the child that is inside of them hence their relief at a miscarriage or abortion. That’s a topic I’ve never heard discussed but I think it’s a reality.

  31. Irina I
    Irina I says:

    I love how you constantly bring up real issues that people should talk about and get comfortable with. Please continue!

  32. John Wilder
    John Wilder says:

    Anthony:

    I appreciate the fact that you did not call me names, you simply chose to find fault with my arguments. That is what civil discourse is supposed to look like.

    Now to address your issues: You chose to make my argument for me, put words in my mouth, set up a paper dragon and then destroyed it. This is very specious logic.

    I don’t have to prove Jesus was anything but a historical figure that the Jews recognize and call him a nice man and a rabbi. That is what I hear Jews describing Jesus as. Taking that description, it does not alter the fact that Jesus insulted the Jews to the point that they had Him killed because He flew in the face of their prejudice about children much the way that we currently do now. I simply pointed out that it was such a common prejudice that in the Bible the same word is used to translate fetus, newborn child, nursing child, toddler and young child. That was the prejudice at the time, that children were not considered legal persons until they turned 13. This is why unwanted children were sacrificed in bonfires to Molech etc. They felt no more remorse for that than we do today where we kill unborn children in the womb.

    My attacks are only on arguments not people. I reference the hateful name calling that liberals have done on this and other posts.

    My references to Jews as untermensch under Hitler, blacks under the Dred Scott decision and Roe vs Wade were and are all part and parcel of declaring someone not a legal person so that it then becomes permissable to kill them. You can’t argue with that basic logic and historical fact. I only point out that as an oppressed class who has known systematic extermination, the Jews should be the first in line to protect the defenseless.

    I worked in a hospital environment. We are saving preemie babies at earlier and earlier stages of development.

    I point out the logical fallacy of saving animals but killing unborn children. It is schizophrenic logic.

    We also make women God in determining if it is a baby or not. If she wants to kill it, it is not a baby. If I kill it with my car, and she wants the baby, then I am charged with vehicular manslaughter. You have to reconcile those two diametrically opposed scenarios, but we are told we don’t have to, that women decide when and if it is a baby and therefore make her a god. If you can declare that it is not a baby then you need to do away with the vehicular manslaughter charges. The same is true if I beat up a pregnant woman who wants the baby and I cause her to have a miscarriage, I am still going to jail.

    • Liz
      Liz says:

      You really don’t seem to understand that this is happening in a woman’s body. It’s a process. It’s quite uncomfortable and often severely painful (for the entire nine months, not only during labor.) And in this country, we don’t force women to risk their lives, their future fertility, and their livelihood by enduring an unwanted pregnancy.

      No one is out clubbing babies. Women have rights to decide what happens to their own bodies. When the baby is not viable, it is still a part of that woman’s body.

      I understand that you’re upset by this, but I think you are more likely to reduce abortions by pushing for access to health care and employment protections for mothers.

  33. PunditMom/Joanne Bamberger
    PunditMom/Joanne Bamberger says:

    All I have to say is you are an amazingly brave person to write about this in this way. Facts are facts whether we want to pretend they are there or not. I applaud you for giving voice to what I am sure many, many think but are afraid to say or even talk about.

  34. Suzanne
    Suzanne says:

    About five years ago a longed-for pregnancy (my last) ended in miscarriage. I was working 12-hour days at the time (despite having two young children). I went to the Ob alone, got the bad news, went to the pharmacy for some meds, then went back to work. I still had a baby at home and when I got home late that night, I cuddled with my ten-month-old and cried for hours. Then got up the next morning and went back to the office for another twelve hour day — while my body continued to shed the remnants of the longed-for baby.

    Thanks for this brave post. And thanks as well for your brave posts about your earlier miscarriage and your abortions. These are real, raw experiences. We deserve to be able to talk about them openly and honestly.

  35. Liz
    Liz says:

    Thanks for your post Penelope… I think all the points you raise are important! No, no one should have to wait 3 weeks for an abortion! And I had 2 miscarriages which impacted me at work a lot. It was odd how much of a sense there was that I wasn’t “supposed to” talk about miscarriage, in general, and it was only after the first time I miscarried I found out how common it is. The 2nd time was actually an ectopic pregnancy, there were some complications, I had surgery and then was re-hospitalized. I almost got fired for missing 3 weeks of work.

    And I have to say if I got pregnant by accident right now I’d be relieved if I miscarried early. We are fighting for all women to have the right to make decisions about their bodies and pregnancy and child bearing – and access to health care, birth control, abortion. But we also honestly have to fight for the right to talk openly about this stuff, it’s no good if some privileged few maybe can get it, but no one’s supposed to talk about it as part of our normal life experience.

  36. Andrea
    Andrea says:

    You are a trail-blazer and that is never comfortable. I remember furtively telling women colleagues 20 years ago “I just had an abortion” and almost to a woman, the reply was “I know how you feel, I’ve had one too”. It is the condition that dare not speak its name: unplanned, unwanted pregnancy. Yet it is pervasive in the female domain whether at work, in the community, or at home. For you, Penelope, or whatever your name is, you put it right out there. Like all the never before discussed and yet highly relevant aspects of a woman working in a male-defined worksphere. We (women) do not have what men (mostly) have in a professional setting, and that is a wife at home to clean up the mess, smooth the transition from work > home > work, and basically shield the breadwinner from any of the messes left in their wake (whether it’s dirty dishes, toilet paper on the roll, underwear cleaned and folded, children’s academic welfare, their toilet habits and overall development… it’s all in the domestic domain). If we as talented, ambitious, work-oriented women have to systematically deny all that which makes us women (such as having miscarriages or abortions) it perpetuates the male-model of professional success (where messes are taken care of and hidden by their wives). We women do not have that luxury. I don’t know that I’d have the chutzpah to expose such intimate details about my life, but Penelope (or w.y.n.i.), you are a maverick in this territory. You tell it! No woman in history who has made powerful contributions to the advancement of women’s rights has done so by observing the polite conventions of her society. You, Penelope, will make many people uncomfortable, will piss a lot of people off, and will cause gasps from people unused to reading such candor, such unvarnished truth, from a WOMAN! You have my utmost admiration and loyalty for that.

  37. John Wilder
    John Wilder says:

    Dear Sidney:

    You call me a racist. Well, Judaism is not a race dear heart. Judaism crosses many racial ethnicities. I am not spewing hatred I am citing facts and find fault with feelings that are not based in facts and logic.

    You are quite correct and somewhat well read to know that paterfamilias was indeed a Roman law. If you were intellectually honest, you would admit that it was widely accepted and practiced by the Jews.

    Molech was a false god and the sacrifice was children thrown onto a bonfire. It was condemned numerous times by God in the Old Testament, yet the Jews practiced it widely. Even Solomon worshipped false gods in the old testament.

    Why don’t the Christians rise up and call me anti Christian because of these references?

    I am not anti-Semitic to mention Jewish history and practice because in previous comments I stated that Jews can’t hide from their dark past any more than Christians can from their dark past and specifically mentioned Salem Witch burnings and The Great Crusades where horrific acts were committed in the name of God.

    The common recurring thread is that people were killed that did not deserve to be killed, often by claiming that they were not legal persons. Women were burned as witches unfairly. Innocent Non-Catholics were killed in the Great Crusades.

    Jews state: “Never Again” about the Holocaust and the 6 million that were systematically exterminated, yet abortion in this country alone has dwarfed the 6 million Jews exterminated. Today in our country alone about 4 million children a year are systematically exterminated that are entirely innocent and defenseless. THEY DON’T HAVE A CHOICE, IT IS MADE FOR THEM. In fact the number one cause of death in this country is by abortion. The womb is the most dangerous place to be statistically. I am not anti-race or religion, I am pro children.

    I say that it is hypocritical for the Jews who have known systematic extermination to support it in abortion on demand. They are one of the few main-stream religions to support it and I vigorously disagree with their viewpoint.

  38. John Wilder
    John Wilder says:

    Kandeezie:

    I say this to you about the death penalty and others who question pro lifers on the death penalty.

    I don’t support the death penalty because too many innocent people have been executed. Furthermore, a life sentence is far more of a deterrent for criminals than the death penalty. Many criminals are so miserable that they welcome the death penalty, some even commit death by cop by getting into a situation where police are forced to shoot them.

    Life is too precious for someone else to take it from us.

  39. Renee
    Renee says:

    I am glad you followed up your twitter with this post….

    Two weeks ago my office had a cookie cake for a woman who had a miscarriage. I am part of gen-X and can guarantee when my mom miscarried in her twenties there was no damn cookie cake, or MEN and women providing comfort and kind words. Then came your post and this article. To me this feels like a revolution.

    Cheers to women speaking up and being honest, its about time. PS I am so grateful to be in this generation.

    • Dee
      Dee says:

      Renee,

      Yours is my absolute favorite comment out of many great comments that have followed this blog post.

      Because yours shows hope, even the realization of a change in the way women and their experiences are included and honored in all domains of life.

      I love what your office did, you are all so awesome. Thanks for sharing this.

  40. stephen bonner
    stephen bonner says:

    Penelope-You do not exhibit classic signs of Asbergers.

    From what I gather from this comment is that you exhibit symptoms more characteristically found in the narcissicist and perhaps the psychopath.

    profound lack of empathy for a human life
    profound lack of empathy for others
    lack of emotional insight into the feelings of others
    grandiosity
    self-centredness

    And NO its not because you are pro-abortion or because you are a woman. Its the WAY you disrespect the lost life and the feelings of others, and because you are pretty happy with yourself.

    May I suggest the book by Dr. Robert Hare “Without Conscience”-It talks about psychopaths being born with out the emotional “hardware” to identify with others.

  41. John Wilder
    John Wilder says:

    Mr. Bonner:

    You have made a mistake here, what you are describing is not a psychopath, but a sociopathic personality. The psychopath has violent tendencies.

    The sociopathic personality is exhibited with profound lack of empathy and conscience as well as narcicisim.

    However what you do not understand is that people who have had profound sexual abuse in their past tend to be turned off to emotional sensitivities. This is a coping mechanism because they can’t deal with the horror of their abuse so they tend to shut down emotionally and have what is called “flat affect”. They can operate in society but lack social skills and are not good at social interaction.

    A little empathy on your part would be good.

  42. Lisa Davis
    Lisa Davis says:

    Way to go for your honesty! Many of us know that no one can tell you how you SHOULD feel. And only an empathetic person can understand how you feel. I certainly understand it. We definitely need more calm and civil discussion about it. Thank You.

    And just think, if women could not control their own fertility, you might not even be in that work place (albeit having a miscarriage).
    One of the reasons why people who try to control other’s choices under the guise of religion (or the lack of freedom thereof) and why more men than women are so passionate against choice, may very well be the issue of power and control because afterall, you are in that workplace.

    Again, thanks for writing about how many may be feeling, but don’t feel safe enough to admit.

  43. April
    April says:

    I found this blog after seeing your interview with Rick Sanchez on CNN. I’m glad I tuned in!! I will be following this blog from now on. So thank you!!

    Why do people feel that they have a RIGHT to dictate how Penelope should have reacted to her miscarriage? She may not have reacted to it the way you would have. But it’s her reaction. These are her feelings. They’re not yours!!

    By the way, I loved your response to Sanchez’s first question!!

    • Nina
      Nina says:

      Okay, THAT was funny.

      That aside, I may have missed it, but let’s have some tweets and blog posts about the reaction to the male contributor to that now-ended pregnancy. Was he hoping for a miscarriage or abortion, or did he want to have it?

      If Penelope’s view seems callous and flippant, that’s her choice, her personality, and anyone who doesn’t like it can just avoid her in all ways.

      Be let’s realize that someone who feels that way about having a miscarriage also had a fetus that was lucky to not have her as a mother. She didn’t want a baby, and no baby would want (if there was a choice) to have a mother with the view of it. Win-Win.

  44. A.M.L.
    A.M.L. says:

    The fact that you're even trying to justify this is ridiculous. I have had miscarriages and I am pro-choice but I think this was just a pathetic example of the worst kind of Twitter oversharing, and unprofessional behavior. Just suck it up, and admit you made a mistake. This has nothing to do with how women need to be able to talk about their personal lives at work. No woman in her right mind is going to share that kind of information with her coworkers if she wants to maintain any kind of professional image. There's no connection to career advice here whatsoever, other than "don't tweet about disgusting personal shit no one wants to hear when you are a public person who has a blog about career advice." What you wrote was classless, crass, gross, and inappropriate, but you're not the first person to make an ass of yourself on Twitter. Apologize like a decent human being and then move on. Yes, Penelope, even you make mistakes. I'm just glad having another child won't be one of them, as I'm not sure you're qualified to parent the two you have.

  45. Nina
    Nina says:

    By the way Penelope, congratulations on the dead baby.

    Can’t think of what other response you wanted, besides perhaps all the other attention you are getting for it. The shock factor is high and I am sure you got lots of new hits on the website. So congratulations!

  46. Nina-1
    Nina-1 says:

    By the way Penelope, congratulations on the dead baby.

    Can’t think of what other response you wanted, besides perhaps all the other attention you are getting for it. The shock factor is high and I am sure you got lots of new hits on the website. So congratulations!

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