It used to be that the smart kids went to graduate school. But today, the workplace is different, and it might be that only the desperate kids go to graduate school. Today there are new rules, and new standards for success. And for most people, graduate school is the path to nowhere. Here are seven reasons why:
1. Graduate school is an extreme investment for a fluid workplace. If you are graduating from college today, you will change careers about five times over the course of your life. So going to graduate school for four years—investing maybe $80,000—is probably over-investing in one of those careers. If you stayed in one career for your whole life, the idea is more reasonable. But we don't do that anymore, so graduate school needs to change before it is reasonable again.
2. Graduate school is no longer a ticket to play. It used to be that you couldn't go into business without an MBA. But recently, the only reason you need an MBA is to climb a corporate ladder. And, as Paul Graham says, "corporate ladders are obsolete." That's because if you try to climb one, you are likely to lose your footing due to downsizing, layoffs, de-equitization, or lack of respect for your personal life. So imagine where you want to go, and notice all the people who got there already without having an MBA. Because you can do that, too, in a wide range of fields, including finance.
3. Graduate school requires you to know what will make you happy before you try it. But we are notoriously bad at knowing what will make us happy. The positive psychology movement has shown us that our brains are actually fine-tuned to trick us into thinking we know about our own happiness. And then we make mistakes. So the best route to happiness is one of trial and error. Otherwise, you could over-commit to a terrible path. For example, today most lawyers do not like being lawyers: more than 55% of members of the American Bar Association say they would not recommend getting a law degree today.
4. Graduate degrees shut doors rather than open them. You better be really certain you know what you're going to do with that degree because you're going to need to earn a lot of money to pay it back. Law school opens doors only to careers that pay enough to repay your loans. Likewise, your loan payments from an MBA program mean that you cannot have a scrappy start-up without starving. Medical school opens doors to careers with such bad work-life balance that the most popular specialty right now is ophthalmology because it has good hours.
5. If you don't actually use your graduate degree, you look unemployable. Let's say you spend years in graduate school (and maybe boatloads of money), but then you don't work in that field. Instead, you start applying for jobs that are, at best, only tangentially related. What it looks like is that you are asking people to give you a job even though you didn't really want to be doing that job. You wanted another job but you couldn't get it. No employer likes to hire from the reject pile, and no employer wants to be second choice.
6. Graduate school is an extension of childhood. Thomas Benton, columnist at the Chronicle of Higher Education, says that some students are addicted to the immediate feedback and constant praise teachers give, but the work world doesn't provide that. Also, kids know how to do what teachers assign. But they have little idea of how to create their own assignments—which is what adult life is, really. So Benton says students go back to school more for comfort than because they have a clear idea of what they want to do with their life.
7. Early adult life is best if you are lost. It used to be that you graduated from college and got on a path. The smart kids got themselves on a safe path fast. Today there are no more safe paths, there is only emerging adulthood, where you have to figure out who you are and where you fit, and the quarter-life crisis, which is a premature midlife crisis that comes when people try to skip over the being lost part of early adult life. Being lost is a great path for today's graduates. And for most people, graduate school undermines that process with very little reward at the end.
Dan Ariely, economist at MIT, found that when people have a complicated choice to make—and there is a default choice—they pick the default nearly every time. So if your parents or friends went to graduate school, you are likely to do the same, not because it's good for you personally, but because choosing the alternatives seem more difficult. But making exactly that kind of difficult choice is what your early adult life is all about. So don't skip it.









I may go back to grad school for some specific training and opportunities, but I'm waiting until I'm really sure that's where I want. And I'm not counting on the degree to get me what I want.
Instead, my goal is to work tangentially in the field (which only requires a BA) and learn some key skills independently. Then use those skills as a stepping ladder, keep going, see where it gets me. The path I'm currently exploring is a mix of tech and library science (information science). The best jobs probably require an MIS…but I'm going to wait on it for now.
As a benefit, a number of library systems will pay you to get your MLS or MIS if you commit to a few years with them. We'll see.
Posted by Mrs. Micah on 06/18/2008 at 08:26pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I contemplated going back to graduate school, but I thought about all that money. Then I thought about all that time. Then I realized that I can create my own path with a little creativity and pig-headed stubbornness.
I'm in the process of trying to brand myself through the internet. Instead of giving money to a bureaucratic institution I'm keeping it and in the process gaining a small fan base for a future business launch.
Posted by Karl Staib - Your Work Happiness Matters on 06/18/2008 at 08:56pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Right on. Many of my coaching clients went to grad school and come to me because they hate their jobs.
Much more important is figuring out your strengths and passions first, which may take 5 years of self-study while working a shitty job.
After that, decide whether grad school is a good investment!
Posted by Duff on 06/18/2008 at 09:29pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, this is extremely well written and timely. We can't manage our careers like our parents did and therefore don't have to be subject to the same educational constraints.
Posted by Dan Schawbel on 06/18/2008 at 09:38pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Cheers to being "lost", or more rightly put, figuring out exactly what it is that you WANT to be doing.
Perhaps the next step is to evaluate graduate programs and let them catch up to the fluidity of the job market.
Are there graduate schools out there that are already implimenting stratagies to play by the new rules?
Posted by Melissa Pierce on 06/18/2008 at 09:47pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
If graduate school is outdated, then apparently we have no further need for doctors, dentists, pharmacists, college professors, scientists, and other professionals. After all, those jobs are hard, and the hours suck.
Posted by Bill on 06/18/2008 at 09:51pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
My MBA was the best decision I've ever made. However, I made sure I worked full-time while completing it, so that I could test new ideas in the field, avoid debt and keep up my work experience. (All very important when you're planning a home and a family — which I now have.) I love that it allowed me to see the world outside my own silo. But, if I'd taken on enormous debt or dropped out of the working world, I think it would have forced different decisions. I probably wouldn't have two kids, a low ratio mortgage, a thriving business and a life I live on my own terms.
Posted by Andrea >> Become a consultant on 06/18/2008 at 09:55pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
What resonates most with me in your post is the idea that "Graduate school requires you to know what will make you happy before you try it." For students to graduate college and step directly into an (expensive) graduate program without having experienced working in that field is a gamble.
When I advised graduate students regarding their job searches, the most heartbreaking meetings were with soon-to-be graduates who still didn't know what type of job they wanted. One young woman went to graduate school because "her grandfather suggested it." Clearly not the best decision she ever made!
The concept of being lost as an advantage is innovative! It would probably be an easier sell if so many college graduates weren't coming out of school with so much debt.
The fact is that many things in life are a gamble. Knowing when and how to gamble ("knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em") is a skill that comes with experience and still requires some luck.
Posted by Miriam Salpeter on 06/18/2008 at 10:04pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
"1. Graduate school is an extreme investment for a fluid workplace."
An MBA or law degree from a top school will pay off. Many people in PhD. programs can get free tuition, and a stipend that is equivalent to a living wage.
"2. Graduate school is no longer a ticket to play."
I'm repeatedly told I need a graduate degree to be considered for positions, and frequently see job postings that require a grad degree.
"3. Graduate school requires you to know what will make you happy before you try it."
Hence graduate school self-selects people who know who they are and what they want out of life. Otherwise they would not have invested the time and money/opportunity cost.
"4. Graduate degrees shut doors rather than open them."
See point two.
"5. If you don’t actually use your graduate degree, you look unemployable."
See point two. If you do find yourself underemployed, pro bono moonlighting can help boost your resume.
"6. Graduate school is an extension of childhood."
I haven't finished my degree yet, but I found that like college, it has boosted my intellectual powers incredibly–and this is from someone who never stopped reading and learning new things after college. Have you gone to graduate school?
"7. Early adult life is best if you are lost."
I wish I had gone back to school earlier rather than doing crummy jobs that didn't fulfil me intellectually. The earlier you get your degrees, the more years of working life that you have to take advantage of them.
Posted by Steve on 06/18/2008 at 10:15pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Thank you! Grad school is a good thing and you're right many jobs do want experience (5 plus years) or an MBA or MA.
Posted by Tami on 11/26/2008 at 11:42am | permalink | Reply to this comment
This perspective certainly makes some excellent points particularly as more people opt for entrepreneurship. As for me, my MBA was the best investment that I have ever made. It allowed me access to a broader field that my original undergraduate degree. I actually returned to grad school several years after being in the workforce…and worked full time while in grad school. It was a great professional experience as I could apply my education to real world problems in the workplace.
All the best to you,
Jessica Bond
Medical Careerist
Posted by Jessica Bond on 06/18/2008 at 10:16pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Oh. I just. Loved that.
And I would make a sweeping generalization to add that sometimes those with advanced degrees are too smart for their own good–stuck in the Land Of Acadamia.
Posted by Stretch Mark Mama on 06/18/2008 at 10:18pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
The younger staff that I work with have the belief that they need to get additional degrees in order to succeed. I always suggest they work for a couple of years to get the experience, broaden their practical knowledge base and then specialize.
Really enjoyed this article! Thank you!
Posted by Christine on 06/18/2008 at 10:30pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This is all very true. And I speak from experience, since I have two graduate degrees myself. Which also makes this post very depressing.
Posted by Mark on 06/18/2008 at 10:40pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I agree with Miriam Salpeter. In my field, one can start work with a B.A combined with an internship. Unfortunately, this has not been my experience. After graduating, I worked many crappy jobs while investigating every avenue I could think of to launch my career. Even though I have been told that I have a stellar resume with excellent references, I have found that the employers in my industry are either hiring people with years of experience or a grad degree. So if an applicant is at an entry level, you’re in a catch-22 situation. The only time I have heard of an applicant with entry level experience getting into this industry was if he/she KNEW someone with hiring power. If I was aware of this information early on, I would have gladly applied to grad school. I am actually preparing to apply for grad school right now.
Posted by Jennifer on 06/18/2008 at 11:00pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Oops, I was looking at the wrong message. It looks like the message I was agree with was written by Steve not Miriam.
Posted by Jennifer on 06/18/2008 at 11:04pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'm a bit conflicted about this – I feel that my career (and income) has benefited greatly from my MBA. My master’s paid for itself in about a year – I feel like that was a pretty good ROI.
I worked full time while I got my MBA – most of my student loan debt is from my years of undergraduate school. I wish I had known what I wanted to do before I pursued my BA (I changed my major three times and dropped out once), but my reasons for the MBA were crystal clear.
I work a fascinating day job, and I occasionally teach undergrad courses at a local university. I love both of these jobs, but I wouldn't have been considered for either one without my master's degree.
I totally agree that early adult life is best experienced “lost.” It took me 10 years to finish my bachelor’s (five of those were actually spent in classes, the rest of the time I was ‘finding myself), but once I did, I knew exactly how I wanted my life to go. I've signed on for 20 years of the corporate thing – then relaxing into an extremely comfortable semi-retirement consulting and teaching as an adjunct.
Some people may view that as being ‘stuck’ in academia, but the adjunct instructors in my tier-two MBA program where pulling in $120k a year and didn’t have to publish – not a bad life. I wouldn’t be qualified for that life without my master’s.
And as a hiring manager, I seek out smart people. Period. I don't care if you have a master's or not.
Posted by Heidi on 06/18/2008 at 11:21pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I agree with the earlier post from Bill. To say that graduate school is outdated is to be somewhat misguided. It's true that getting a JD or MD might push the owner towards a career in law or medicine, it wouldn't hardly be possible otherwise. Almost all undergraduate degrees will allow you to be a generalist in a one area or another. This is great if you will be skipping through 5 wholly different careers in a lifetime. At the same time generalist work is not for everyone, but it is probably great for the majority of people that are not necessarily game for a challenge.
The overall point being made is misguided logic… Most people will change careers 5 times. As this is the case, most people should not pursue a graduate degree in any one area, it may not be applicable in every area. Therefore graduate degrees are outdated. The real title of this blog should be 'Graduate school is not for everyone'.
Posted by Mykel on 06/18/2008 at 11:32pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
good one. So now all the immigrants can do all the work. Since the natives no longer have a professional degree. Hmmm…
Posted by rk on 06/18/2008 at 11:35pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
> immediate feedback and constant praise teachers
Uh…what grad school are you talking about? my Ph.D. program was led by demanding scholars who didn't mince words when a student's work wasn't up to snuff.
One doesn't attend a serious grad program out of some infantile need for "wuv," but out of a passion for the discipline and for scholarship.
Posted by maria on 06/18/2008 at 11:40pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
"So going to graduate school for four years—investing maybe $80,000"
Were these points were pulled out of thin air? When you say graduate school, what do you mean? MS, MA, JD, MBA, MD, PhD?
MS = 1-2 years
MBA = 2 years
JD = 3 years
PhD = 5-6 years
The PhD is a special case in my mind, everyone I know that has pursued a PhD level degree has, as a part of the program, received some level of compensation. They are not racking up debt.
Posted by Mykel on 06/18/2008 at 11:41pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
"And as a hiring manager, I seek out smart people. Period. I don’t care if you have a master’s or not."
Ha, and this was supposed to be proof that one should get a grad degree? I'm glad I didn't waste my time. I'm three years out of a B.S. and I my two assistants have graduate degrees.
Posted by Brenda on 06/18/2008 at 11:52pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
I really like your blog, but may I ask why you pick on lawyers so relentlessly? If I was going to unleash some pop psychology, it almost sounds like you regret not becoming a lawyer yourself, and need to keep backing up that decision for yourself by slating the profession.
If you were to examine any job or profession, including doctors, dentists, CPA's or Wall Street Traders, you would find legions of very unhappy people, just as you would among shop assistants and toilet cleaners.
So either your thinking is getting a bit stale (time to come up with a new point, you've hammered the "lawyers are unhappy" one ad nauseam), or there is definitely something personal for you about it. I'm thinking it's the latter, because your writing's creative in every other way aside from flogging this example.
Posted by Mark on 06/19/2008 at 12:09am | permalink | Reply to this comment
This has already been implied in a number of comments already, but what's written here applies mostly to particular fields. Your blog is focused on the business world, so I assume this is written from that perspective.
Grad school in the humanities can be quite expensive, but in the sciences – and even in the arts if you choose the right school – graduate degree programs are often covered by fellowships, and students usually have a teaching or research assistantship that pays a reasonable stipend. (My degrees are in music, and I only paid for my undergraduate program.) Many programs only accept as many students as they can afford to fund.
Sure, it's best to have some sense that this is what you want before starting down this path – and I agree it's not a good place to park yourself while you figure out what you want to do – but the fact is if you want to be a lawyer, doctor, scientist, academic, etc. (and we do still need people to do these jobs), you're most likely going to need an advanced degree.
Posted by john on 06/19/2008 at 01:23am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I agree with John, there are certain fields that it is valuable to have a grad degree. In Canada, our Library Science degrees are graduate and the field is really opening up.
Also, grad degrees aren't the only game in town. Sometimes, it's valuable to revive a stale degree by earning a post B.A. or Bsc diploma. Universities are now offering these in such topics as communications, writing etc… Or offering 2-year second degree programs. Our university is currently offering an undergraduate 2 year computer science degree that tops up an already existing degree where your first degree determines what area you study in computer science.
Posted by Patricia on 06/19/2008 at 02:06am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Damn. I was already feeling unmotivated about grad school already. Now this!
Great article. And insightful too.
Posted by web design company on 06/19/2008 at 03:49am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Amen. I think this list offers great reasons for really making sure grad school is the right choice before making the commitment.
I don't think the reasons above mean grad school is not for anyone, only that it's not for everyone who thinks it is a good choice for them. Grad school is something many may think they'll benefit from when in fact it may be unnecessary for them or even worse, at times even counter productive.
I think one of the most important factors is what one of the commenters above said: "For students to graduate college and step directly into an (expensive) graduate program without having experienced working in that field is a gamble." The best advice I'd give someone considering grad school is to get experience in the relevant field first to make sure it's what they want to devote the time and money to and to make sure grad school will pay off for them in that particular field.
Now, where were you–and this post–when I was making *my* decisions about grad school?
Posted by m on 06/19/2008 at 03:53am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Wanted to re-highlight that "Graduate School" here appears to mean "MBA/Law school/Humanities graduate school".
PhD's in science…
(1) are generally fully funded – I came out of mine owning a home, with a retirement package started and savings;
(2) generally very independent (in fact, I had to reread the comments on addiction to immediate feedback over because when I saw the phrase in the paragraph I expected something totally different – one of the aspects of graduate school that's commonly discussed where I'm at is that graduate school is generally considered to be an extremely rough transition for those who are very dependent on immediate feedback, because it's suddenly so completely lacking)
(3) For both of the fields I'm involved in (scientific research and clinical medicine), a graduate degree or an MD (technically not graduate school, but if law school counts…) are THE entries into the major career paths in these fields (yes, you can of course do an RN instead of an MD and have a career in medicine as well, but that's a lot of schooling, also!).
Just to make sure someone considering these options isn't confused by this post!
Posted by t on 06/19/2008 at 05:03am | permalink | Reply to this comment
1. Shop around. My MBA is less than $9k total. And my employer is picking up half the tab.
5. Why put it on your resume?
6. As the parent of two Autistic boys (both preschool), with a house and a full-time job that requires travel, neither my wife or I am liveing our second childhood.
7. AGREED!!! Unless a young person is really focused and knows at a young age what they want to do, graduating university with no debt is more important than going to the "right" school or choosing the right major.
Posted by Greg on 06/19/2008 at 06:51am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Great advice. But one thing that you may forget to mention is that if you are able to find an employer willing to front some of the bill, it is totally worth it to get one regardless of where you may end up later in life. My wife got her graduate degree while working and about 60% of it was paid by her employer. In hindsight, she thinks that her Master's does not match up with relevant work experience, but it certainly did make her career progression go a lot faster.
Posted by Orrick Nepomuceno on 06/19/2008 at 07:25am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
Do you ever say anything new? This is yet another recycling of things you have said multiple times in other blog entries…
Posted by Jim on 06/19/2008 at 07:41am | permalink | Reply to this comment
In general I think PT is great – unfortunately this article was totally off-base. Only dealt with MBA's and a few other select occupations.
Would you want your doctor to not go to med school, or your lawyer to not be knowledgeable on the laws – I think not.
Most basic research which fuels the economy comes from graduate schools – where would we be without it.
People can succeed without grad schools, but "life as we know it" would not be "life as we know it" without grad schools.
If I knew how to rate this article I would rate it a 1 out of 5.
Rick
Posted by rickf0628 on 06/19/2008 at 07:45am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I think I agree with you, but not 100%. I got my masters when I was 32. I got my bachelors at 22. When I got my bachelors, I was a total idiot (thank goodness I didn't know it then). I really benefitted from going to school for the masters because I wasn't so hung over.
Where I agree with you is that I'm not really confident that any degree will get you anywhere careerwise. But as an educator – and also the daughter of an educator – I kind of like going to school.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you're going to graduate school with the expectation of making a lot of money from it, you will probably be disappointed (but hopefully not). If you are going to grad school to learn some stuff, you will not be disappointed. I'm glad I went.
Posted by GenerationXpert on 06/19/2008 at 08:11am | permalink | Reply to this comment
As I recall, you kicked around numerous dead-end jobs in your twenties, which supports your premise. But then, seemingly lacking any direction, you went to grad school for writing. This led to your first book and ultimately to your writing career. So was your way the right way, or the wrong way? Or is it that grad school was cool 12 years ago, but "outdated" now?
Posted by Dan on 06/19/2008 at 08:13am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Having gone to graduate school later in life (my 30s) and used it to jumpstart a second career, I'm obviously biased, but I'd say that this article is all about the exception and not the rule. Website publishers and volleyball players obviously don't need a graduate degree (do they even need a bachelors degree?) but nobody with whom I work will make it above "lead" or "senior" (which is not very high, in a global company) without one. Changing jobs won't do anything about that.
Posted by tinyhands on 06/19/2008 at 08:24am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I can see where a lot of these points are coming from, and I am definitely of the mind that going to grad school because you can't find a job right out of undergrad is the worst (reason to make that) decision.
But the reality is, there are still a lot of careers that have ladders, and for them, advanced degrees are not really an option… yet. Who knows if they ever will be.
This conversation is very important to me, because when I first applied to grad school, I think it was for the wrong reasons. I wasn't sure of my career path, and I thought that getting a doctoral degree and becoming a professor was the best potential for a fulfilling, balanced career. Crazy, right, that I percieved teaching as a balanced career? But I did. And who knows, maybe it is or could be. I could still end up deciding that's the way I want to go. But that's the point, really, isn't it? To, no matter where you are in your professional or educational journey, always be pushing for new doors, new paths, new directions? For a lot of people, that may mean getting an advanced degree, and that's great. I will be one of those people, even if it's just for my own personal satisfaction and knowledge…
Posted by Tiffany Monhollon on 06/19/2008 at 08:33am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I like reading the comments for this article because people have a lot of passion around the issue. If you do not have a graduate degree, you think they are a waste of time, and that it only indicates that you are 'book smart'.
If you have a graduate degree, you think that it reflects positively on your intellect and dedication.
The bottom line is, does it work for you?
I had a job that I loved, making almost 30k a year, barely scraping by supporting my family. I quit my job, went to a top 30 MBA program (nothing too fancy) and in 18 months accepted a job offer for $85k. More importantly, though, I met some fantastic people.
When I lost my job 5 years ago (that 85k gig) it was the MBA on my resume and my network of grad school friends that kept the interviews rolling in, and an eventual job offer.
Had I not gone to grad school, I would not have had those connections. Income/cost aside, a trip back to school can broaden your network and open you up to some very smart, connected people.
Love the discussion!
Posted by Rich on 06/19/2008 at 08:35am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Jennifer wrote: "Some people may view that as being ‘stuck’ in academia, but the adjunct instructors in my tier-two MBA program where pulling in $120k a year and didn’t have to publish – not a bad life. I wouldn’t be qualified for that life without my master’s."
I'm in my late 30s, and just left a large high-tech company, where I was making more than that, and I was managing a marketing team of 10, all of whom had MBAs. I took some smart chances in my career, delivered results, built alliances and a solid reputation. I stepped off the corporate treadmill to start my own company.
I used to think about it a lot, but it retrospect I don't feel that the lack of an MBA has held me back in the slightest.
Posted by Jon on 06/19/2008 at 08:42am | permalink | Reply to this comment
For the most part, I agree. For myself, I am fortunate/blessed/lucky enough to actually be using my very specific graduate degree in the Helping field. I am also doing exactly what I wanted to do. It did NOT happen overnight but I only worked at a start up/entry level job/for a year first before I got to where I want to go. Without my degree my job would be much harder. But I do agree that for the most part, especially the part about not being sure if it will make you happy…..because, if I had not been an Intern doing exactly what I am doing right now-and I do mean exactly- then how would I truly know if this is what I'm going to like???
Posted by Eve on 06/19/2008 at 08:48am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Where I agree with you is that I’m not really confident that any degree will get you anywhere careerwise. But as an educator – and also the daughter of an educator – I kind of like going to school. "
Same for me GenerationXpert! I'm younger than you-technically, a Y-er but I am borderline, really. And I love Education. But, I grew up (maturity wise) and realized I do NOT need more student loan debt! I used to say that if I won the lottery I'd go back and get my ph D just for fun. Because I am a nerd. However- I actually really really like my job now and do not need one, nor would the ph d I'm considering help me in this job. So, the question is IF you go on the grad school, Masters or Ph D, can you make it work for you? That is the real question.
Posted by Eve on 06/19/2008 at 08:51am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hey – what about graduate school to meet a spouse? Penelope, you recognize the importance of doing that while you're young. I know of almost no better place to do it. It used to be high school sweethearts, then college. But now people are think that's too young to meet a mate. So – work a couple of years, go back to school – boom! Meet someone in your mid-20's, who has the same sorts of goals as you. It's a breeding ground. Lots of parties, socializing, a relaxed atmosphere. I went to law school to be a lawyer, but the best thing I got out of it was meeting my husband! It wasn't calculating at all, it was damn good luck. But the situation was perfectly designed for it. Now I may not be bouncing off the walls for love of my job, but my law school experience was priceless.
Posted by eac on 06/19/2008 at 08:57am | permalink | Reply to this comment
@Steve, thank you for posting a balanced response, I couldn't agree more.
Grad school is obviously not for everyone, but to suggest it is outdated is an oversimplification. In fact, I think grad school is becoming more important than ever as undergraduate degrees have become ubiquitous and too easy to obtain. Grad school is a great way to differentiate yourself.
Posted by Colin on 06/19/2008 at 09:09am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Maybe its just NYC, but every basic admin position here requires a bachelors and every "real" job requires a masters. Hell, I've seen admin positions asking for a masters. Inflation isn't just in our economy….
Posted by Rosezilla on 06/19/2008 at 09:10am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I think that Steve hit the points of your article much better than you did Penelope. I definately think that the title of this article is misleading.
I think that if you are unsure of what you want to do in life, and still trying to "find yourself", you are completely right PT. Grad school is not for you, and should not be entered for the wrong reasons. It took me 6 years to get my BS because I didn't know what I REALLY wanted to do and changed majors 3 times. Fortunately, I did end up finding something that interests me: Business/Finance/Economics. I've since worked in the Banking field to gain some experience in this aspect of Business/Finance while earning some savings. Working here, I've realized even more what I want to do: Financial Analysis. IMO, this is probably a more realistic approach… Finish your BA/BS, go work in the field to see what kind of jobs are out there and what you'll REALLY be doing, and if you like it/enjoy it, go back and get that Grad degree. I plan on working full time and getting my job to pay for some of it and doing Grad school at my leisure… not just tryin to earn a degree as in College, but trying to learn this time around.
For those of us who KNOW we want to make it to those top CFO/CEO/President of Company jobs, an MBA is required. Sure you can start your own company, but your not going to make a $150,000+ salary very quickly if ever. Unless of course you have some innovative idea that enables you to sell off the company for a nice profit… but in this case, you don't even need a BA/BS now do you? I also completely agree with the aspect of MBA being golden on your resume rather than a hinderance, as well as the points about the networks you make. Your networks in grad school are much more specific than your frat/drinking buddies from undergrad, and are much more likely to pay off in the long run.
Posted by Adam on 06/19/2008 at 09:14am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I don't think that you mean that grad school itself is outdated. I think what you REALLY mean is that following what is widely perceived as the "traditional" educational path (high school, 4-yr-college, masters, PhD) before officially embarking on a full-time career is outdated. Which is more or less true, depending on your field.
Doctors and lawyers have to get their degrees "out of the way" before they can launch. And most college teaching positions require at least a master's in the field of instruction. Same goes for jobs in the applied science sector.
If you're not planning to be a doctor, lawyer, professor, engineer, or research scientist, however, it DOES make sense to postpone your post-graduate education until you know what degree will be most applicable to your work.
I chose to go to work after getting my baccalaureate degree — mainly due to money issues. But it was a big mistake, since what I really wanted was to teach literature and grammar at the college level. And that's STILL what I want, after 20 very successful years in the administrative field.
SO, I'm going to go back to school and get my master's and my PhD, as soon as my own kids are out of college. And then I will FINALLY get the chance to do what I always wanted to do. Maybe late, but better late than never.
Posted by Editormum on 06/19/2008 at 09:56am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'm not sure if early adult life is best when you are lost, and that you don't really need a graduate degree – I know a lot of smart people who never got that graduate degree and have hit ceilings because they have ability but a MA, PhD, whatever is needed for the higher rung.
Now this may not be true on the West Coast, or in places where work is more fluid and entreprenurial, but most of us across the country are not dealing with that – we're still dealing with more conventional ways to work and the 50/60 year olds calling the shots are the epitome of convention. "Where did you get your MBA or JD?" still matters. Being a woman with a MBA or JD is still a problem – nice degree but "eeew, she's a girl!"
I liked Steve's post, and also liked the person who mentioned that most employees – not lawyers – are pretty unhappy. Frankly, the only people I've ever heard talk about loving work or following their passions are career writers, career counselors (hm, now why would they tell people that – oh, to sell more services!), and those wacky West Coast people who are all "dude, I'm following my passion." Try to find someone who likes what they are doing in the Real World – the lawyers want out of law, the doctors want into law, the civil engineers hate engineering, the IT people feel blocked and stalled, the sales people want out of sales, teachers pretty quickly hate teaching… the human condition is to be dissatisfied (unless a particular human is in a manic phase or has been lobotomized).
Posted by Marla on 06/19/2008 at 09:56am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I should also add that the medical supply and pharma sales people I know all want out and into medicine, but the docs and nurses they call on tell them "no, it's awful, we want out into sales." And the architects have mostly left because, passion for design aside, the developers have ruined their profitability.
Perhaps this is why the healthiest attitude towards work is that it is only a job, and only one part of life, and not a person's whole identity. So go for money that you can enjoy on weekends and evenings.
Posted by Marla on 06/19/2008 at 10:27am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I've heard the "graduate degree is outdated" argument a few times before. I think it depends on what your field is and what you want to do. I work in public relations – I don't need a graduate degree to succeed (although I'm planning on getting my MBA to better my business skills for when I want to start my own PR firm). However, quite a few people told my fiance that he would need an advanced degree to advance in his career. In fact, many companies won't even hire him without one. (he's an engineer).
With the record rates of people graduating from college today, I think an advanced degree helps differentiate candidates from the field.
Posted by Celeste on 06/19/2008 at 10:42am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope – I usually like your posts, but this one missed the mark by a mile. Your usual voice of sound advice seems to have taken a vacation, with sour grapes filling in as a temp.
Posted by Eli on 06/19/2008 at 10:45am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
Sad to note a post which is an overgeneralisation bordering on the ridiculous, especially since it is disguised as advice.
The views are probably also very America-centric. In today's world, anybody who harbours dreams of making a truly borderless career, will find him/herself contending with standards set by others.
As long as there are immigrants in the US (mostly from "Eastern" cultures which place a great deal of emphasis on higher education, however misplaced from your perspective, it remains a fact) and there are people wanting to work in India and China (more of the same kind of people as those immigrants in America, except this time on their home ground and bolder than you can imagine), graduate degrees will not be outdated.
I also find it curiously amusing when non-MBAs tell MBAs that MBA is a useless degree. Would we non-medics tell a doctor that his specialisation was useless? Or tell a lawyer his JD was not much use?
As a recently minted PhD, I do however actively dissuade people from pursuing a PhD. Mainly because people do not find out until it is too late, that it takes something else to succeed at completing a PhD, which is why an PhD (ABD) is considered acceptable in America.
If this is advice, shouldn't there be at least a semblance of "balance" in the argument?
Posted by Shefaly on 06/19/2008 at 10:53am | permalink | Reply to this comment
In order to be a CPA, you have to take a certain number of advanced accounting courses. Most graduate schools will not let you take the advanced accounting courses until you finish their MBA program. So you might as well get your MBA anyway. This varies from state to state, but this is the norm among most of the states now.
But I agree with a lot of what you have to say. It doesn't really seem to matter.
What seems to be emerging as my career choice now, due to the fact that nobody wants to hire an inexperienced MBA, is to get together with others who are in the same boat I am but who have a different specialty. Like if my specialty is accounting, then maybe I can get together with others who have a specialty in MIS, operations and marketing. Then, like the collaborative projects we were assigned in school, we could work together on setting up a business of our own.
Otherwise, what I'm looking at is starting out as a crewperson at the local sub chain, working my way up into management and then maybe the corporate office. Maybe then, I'll find my accounting job.
Posted by John Feier on 06/19/2008 at 11:23am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Selfish considerations aside, let's be grateful to those who can and do make the long-term commitment to building knowledge and experience in careers that are not always fun. And let's also consider that the path with the most short-term fun isn't always the same as the past with the most long-term satisfaction and joy.
If I wanted to live in a world of permanent dilettantes, I'd choose yours first because it's all about me me me, now now now. Then I'd reconsider.
In your world, the subject-matter experts – doctors, lawyers, engineers etc. – would have no more than five or maybe ten years of combined education and experience in any given field. Medical care would suck and buildings would fall down but it wouldn't matter because we'd all change careers before being called to account.
Or maybe you're counting on the "suckers" who actually do choose a single career and stick with it to provide stability while the dilettantes flit about looking to take ever more and give ever less.
Here's an idea: let's reward the people who make a commitment and stick with it even if the going isn't always easy. Let's pay more to the doctors, lawyers, engineers etc who are toughing it out.
To be fair, I spent a total of eight years getting two separate undergrad degrees but I never went to grad school myself; I chose not to, twice, for reasons not entirely different from yours given. I'm on my second career now and may change again. So I'm somewhere in between – my first career lasted only 8 years (education included) and my second has lasted over 20 years so far and may or may not go on for another 20 or more.
Posted by Jonathan Gladstone on 06/19/2008 at 11:40am | permalink | Reply to this comment
First of all, I think this point is relative. Bill Gates left Harvard to form Microsoft. So he doesn't even have a degree. Many employers require degrees. That means Bill Gates would not qualify. Steve Jobs never graduated either. He would not be able to work for many companies.
McKinsey Company is an exclusive consulting company that only hires from Ivy League schools. If you did not attend one of these schools, you have no chance at becoming consultant for McKinsey. So that means, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs would automatically be rejected from working there. No college degrees for either of them.
Penelope:
What you fail to mention is that many companies are very rigid in their hiring requirements. Sometimes it gets silly. If you don't have the exact requirements they are looking for you will be rejected even if you are Bill Gates. HR Dept's don't adapt or adopt and they don't see the ability of people to change according to demands.
If you don't fit into the box HR is looking for, you do not even get looked at. It is like they are wearing horse blinders and if they are not looking right at you, you do not even get a chance. The only way for candidates to get firms to even look at them is to meet the exact crieria they are looking for so you can get into their lineo f view. This includes having the required degrees. No degree? Too bad, go do something else.
HR is trained to say no, they are not trained to find a way to say yes. Make it easy for them to say no, and you are out.
Posted by Jim Eiden on 06/19/2008 at 11:43am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I usually agree with a great deal of your insights, Penelope, but there's no way I can back you up on this one. I'm 25 years old and just finished my graduate program, and have been ecstatic to watch doors open for me one after another. My undergraduate degree in English (which, I should note, prepared me incredibly well for the rigors of graduate study) left me with a lot of pretentious ideas and absolutely no marketable skills. I spent about a year and a half "lost", as you call it, floundering and directionless. I then started graduate school slowly, with just one class while I worked full-time so that I could feel it out. And from there, everything fell into place. As I grew into my education, I found what I wanted, and I watched opportunities open up to me even within my own workplace. I've since left that position for a fabulous career I didn't even know existed until after I started graduate school. My experience is not singular – more than a few of my friends and peers have been thrilled with their graduate school experience.
I think a major thing you neglect in your analysis is that education evolves in much the same way that the business world does. At least in my own experience, the faculty have been aware of the changing demands of the working world, and the curriculum has been adjusted to reflect those needs (direct evidence of this: your blog was required reading for an independent study I pursued last semester!). Students can now study in programs with broad appeal that take a practical approach. There exist programs that not only open professional doors but encourage independence, confidence and critical thinking – skills that anyone needs, in any profession.
Posted by Lindsey on 06/19/2008 at 12:04pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
How timely for me… I will be speaking to an enrollment advisor this morning about enrolling in an MBA program.
I am more excited than ever to be starting this journey, even after reading this depressing article.
Why?
After 6 years of full-time classes to get my BA, while also working full-time, single-parenting 3 kids, and being an active member of the National Guard, I WAS PASSED OVER FOR SOMEONE WITH A MASTERS.
Not more experience. Not more capable. Just that piece of paper and how it fit into the hiring policies.
I knew from that day on, that I would return to school. It was only a matter of finding the time and money.
Today is the day! My intended program is online and my employer will pay 75%.
In my field, graduate school is still the ticket to play.
Posted by kristi on 06/19/2008 at 12:13pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
GO Kristi!
Johnathan Gladstone – I like the way you think. If those SOBs get my stomach lining, they should at least pay me more for the loss of it.
Posted by Marla on 06/19/2008 at 12:18pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Lindsey, great example of the value of Grad school or continuing education & how you find your way from being lost.
——
I see this article as a good reminder that the value & reason for a Graduate degree has changed.
Masters degree should be view differently than a BA. When you get out of a BA, it fine if you don't know what you want to do. A MA or the others are targeted, so … target it.
One of the things I want to do is go back for a MBA (at least for 1 year full-time)
– A break from life (if I can budget it)
– Do some of the stuff I should of done in BA
– Build a better network & diverse
– Maybe start a business
– Get a different perspective, a specialization that I have little knowledge about (Finance)
OR unify my multiple roles & specialization that I have work in.
Before you get in:
Differiate what you are guarantee to get & what you are dreaming you are going to get.
What do you have to do in during to make that dream into a guarantee or should you quit before going into this dip? (Read/Google 'The Dip' & you will know what I mean)
If you are in:
What project/thesis is going to make you unique(valuable)? How to keep those friends after you are done? What companies do I want to work for & doing what (Do you have a list of 10 companies, not 1 or 2)?
Find a Mentor, it could be a Prof or ask a prof to help you find one. (Bonus: if the mentor is working in one of your listed companies)
—-
People we don't have agree with everything she saids,
but she does provide us with a different perspective & pushes us to think.
Posted by Ian on 06/19/2008 at 12:38pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
In many ways I can agree with you that sometimes people overvalue getting an advanced degree (particularly an MBA):
http://younggogetter.com/2008/05/15/3-reasons-to-skip-getting-your-mba/
That said, for some people it's a great decision. As a communications studies major, english minor when I finished undergraduate I wasn't going to get paid anything (and perhaps I still won't), but getting a Masters in Marketing (that only takes 1.5 years to complete) has seemed to be the optimal decision for me.
I get to learn something new, business skills, etc. and like someone said, the curriculum's are changing and getting better (I know they are at my university), and the average salary of our program's graduate the first year out is upwards of 60K. Is that a guarantee? Absolutely not, BUT perhaps the people that make the most noise about these advanced degrees not working are those that they DONT WORK for. Perhaps the people that have fell in line and are doing well haven't felt the need to come back and vocalize that. Certainly, it's a possibility.
Posted by Ryan Stephens on 06/19/2008 at 12:44pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
@Mark
You are so spot on. It's ironic that Penelope has nothing good to say about lawyering, but she's currently relying on the advice of counsel in her bitter divorce saga (or should be).
If you want to be an attorney (and some of us do enjoy the work), you have to have a JD to play in our sandbox. The issue isn't whether the JD is worthwhile, it is whether it's worthwhile to YOU!
The key for young people contemplating a career in the law is to be realistic. Not everyone gets to be Atticus Finch, and justice is an abstract concept rarely achieved. For every stellar M&A deal done by a white shoe firm, there are thousands of ordinary meat and potatoes cases. Those are what you will more than likely be doing, especially if you don't graduate in the top third of a top twenty law school. Paying work is often tedious and deadlines are stressful. But every so often the intellectual challenge of a case or the genuine appreciation of a client makes it worth the sacrifices.
Just be a realist.
Posted by Tom on 06/19/2008 at 12:47pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I have to argue that at least in certain fields, at least mine anyway, grad school teaches vital skills. I may not use my applied math knowledge to do web application development, but I use the skills developed in grad school all the time (e.g., ability to problem solve).
Posted by adam on 06/19/2008 at 12:54pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Who goes to grad school for 4 years? I think what people fail to realize is that a college degree is equivilant to what a high school diploma was 30 years ago. Now for many places you do need a graduate degree to be competitive. Obviously not every field requires one, but if your fields offers one and you feel it will benefit your overall career strategy, go for it. Getting one to just get one and avoid having to leave school to work is the mistake most people who get them and do nothing with it make. It all just depends on the relavence of having one and your desired field.
Posted by Phil on 06/19/2008 at 01:28pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I can hardly even get my foot in the door in my field without a Master's degree. Sure, there are job opportunities for folks fresh out of undergrad, but they don't pay much and you can't count on any kind of upward mobility without that Master's degree.
I agree that going to graduate school just for the hell of it is probably not your best choice. You're going to wind up deeper in debt with no plan on how to get out of it.
But, to not get a degree because you think that you might change jobs in 5 years is rather odd thinking, as well. If I don't get the degree because I'm afraid I won't like the job in 5-6 years, but then I don't get the job because I don't have the degree… I'm doubting myself right into a cook job at McDonalds.
Posted by Erik on 06/19/2008 at 01:56pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
There are also valuable experiential credentials such as the PMP and PHR that do not require a Masters Degree. Unfortunately careerists in these fields are often discouraged.
Posted by Charles on 06/19/2008 at 01:57pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
10 years ago (yes I’m a little older) when I graduated from college, I thought about going to graduate school, but wasn’t sure in what. I’m happy I waited. I’m now in my Master’s program for counseling, something I know I would not have chosen 10 years ago and going into a field I enjoy. Plus I’m working for a company that is helping me pay for it. 10 years ago it would have been a lot easier for me, since I now have kids, but it will only take me 2 years to complete it. My kids think it is cool that I have homework too.
Posted by Jill on 06/19/2008 at 03:26pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
A couple of points…
1. Not EVERYONE changes careers five times. Some people will change five times. Some may change more. Others may have fewer changes. Of course, it depends on how you define a career change. If someone has done a job for 10 years, and then decides to become a professor in that same field, is that a career change? I'd probably say yes, it is. What if a person advances from design engineer (doing the detail work) to sales engineer – is that a career change, or part of a natural progression?
2. Some professions require graduate degrees. Some people want to be in those professions. These people should get their graduate degrees.
3. Not all grad students end up in debt. In engineering, tuition's paid and the stipends are OK – you don't get rich, but you don't need to eat Ramen, either.
Bottom line – there is no universal rule stating that you should or should not get a graduate degree, or when to get it. Everyone considering graduate school should ask him or herself, "Will a graduate degree get me to a goal I want to achieve? If so, is it the most effective way to get to that goal, considering all of the costs and the other options?" If yes – go for it. If no – then don't.
Posted by Diane on 06/19/2008 at 03:39pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Interesting that you assume a model in which students go directly into a FT graduate program from their undergraduate days and pay for it themselves. Most of the graduate students I see are FT workers, often using an employee tuition benefit, to pursue programs that further their careers. Shifting that underlying assumption pretty much knocks out all of your arguments.
Plus, since many of our graduate programs are in education, I would offer the counter argument that K-12 education is still an employment sector in which graduate coursework is promptly rewarded with additional remuneration in most school districts.
However, #1 and #3 suggest an argument in favor of the current trend towards graduate certificates—smaller grouping of graduate courses with a narrower focus than entire degree, which can generally be rolled into a graduate degree if the student finds that it makes her happy and is useful in her career.
Posted by HWS on 06/19/2008 at 04:03pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I just wanted to point out one of the downfalls of a graduate degree. I met a teacher with a masters in her fifties who can not get a teaching job anywhere because she's 'too expensive'. The woman had to work as a substitute teacher and had to sell her house because no one would hire her permanently. There are just some situations like this where everyone is encouraged to get the higher degree, but then no one wants to pay someone what they are worth.
Posted by Janette on 06/19/2008 at 04:54pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Those are excellent reasons why graduate school should not be a default choice. But it is hardly outdated – there are lots of great reasons to do graduate work.
For example, graduate school (or even undergraduate education) does not have to be an investment decision, one could choose to do it because it is fun and it is affordable. Early adult years is exactly when being in school is the most fun and the most affordable – health insurance is cheap, and there are few financial commitments.
Also, some professions require a graduate degree. Even if around half JDs wish they did not go to law school, the other half is happy about their decision. And we do not know how many people who never became lawyers wish they did, and how much happier they would be had they gone to law school.
Posted by jane on 06/19/2008 at 06:27pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
You've made the mistake of conflating "grad school," in general (e.g. MBA), with professional degrees. Unhappy as many lawyers and doctors are, the can't practice without the credentials. In other words, it is not a matter of "climbing the corporate ladder."
But much about the economic analysis of investing in "grad school" is true. Of course, who is to know what they really want to do until they've done it?
I am a lawyer and love my profession, the money, the work that I do, and frankly the unearned respect that comes with the territory (regardless of the b.s., people generally do respect lawyers even if they would never admit it). That's cool.
Although your point is well taken, please be careful not to paint with too braod a brush. You could discourage some who are truly called to a profession.
Posted by Rob on 06/19/2008 at 07:29pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Re-reading the post, I missed the usual point — what might make sense to those with experience is "outdated." The tired mantra is really, really thin. Why can't you seem to give it a break?
Posted by Rob on 06/19/2008 at 08:04pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This post isn't a generalization of graduate school but rather an attack on MBA's and JD's. What about other graduate programs in say economics, history, humanities, political science. Graduate school isn't about taking a step up on the corporate ladder. It's taking a two year (if masters) pause in your life to refine and hone your thoughts and engage in discourse. Sure, you can spend two years in a library or starting reading a lot of books and watching lectures on youtube to save money. However, it's the intense experience of surrounding yourself around a cohort of similar interests and expanding your mind.
Posted by Daniel Hoang on 06/19/2008 at 10:29pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Janette makes a good point regarding a potential pitfall for those with advanced degrees trying to find work in certain fields – they might be deemed overqualified, or their degree may place them too high on the payscale for an entry-level position. For teachers though, there isn't really an easy solution to this, because in most states teachers are required to get a master's degree within a certain number of years in order to keep their job.
Posted by john on 06/19/2008 at 11:30pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Well considering that I had the opportunity to go to Graduate School for FREE, I couldn't pass it up! So I have NO loan to pay back!!! And, no, my employer didn't pay a dime! No Grant, etc!
As to gettng a new/better job … My employer could care less! As a matter of fact my employer has made my job WORSE by giving me the crap work no one wants! Thus I am looking for a new job. But getting a new job in these poor economic times is hard – harder if you don't have the right experience.
Posted by Scott on 06/20/2008 at 07:55am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Awesome article! This is exactly how I feel about advanced degrees. You put it perfectly.
Posted by Jennifer on 06/20/2008 at 08:22am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Fabulous! I can't tell you how many people I've met who have graduate degrees (sometimes multiple) because it was easier than trying to figure out "what they wanted to be when they grow up" and fumble through the early days of sorting out a career direction. And, without fail, all of them have ended up feeling trapped and miserable in their choices (or, worse yet, end up radically and horribly under-employed in a different field entirely, and hate getting up and going to work every day because of it).
The only people I've known who are happy with grad school (and who ultimately find some actual value in the amount of money they have to shell out for it) are those who've done a part-time graduate program once they are a decade or so into their career. By then they are more sure of what they want, more likely to pick a degree they have an actual use for, more committed to making it happen, and less likely to spend ludicrous amounts of money on an expensive degree frivolously.
Posted by Alora on 06/20/2008 at 11:31am | permalink | Reply to this comment
This article is out of touch with reality. It lacks statistical/factual support and is full of pop-psychology.
Be careful with what you read.
Posted by Bruno Afonso on 06/20/2008 at 11:40am | permalink | Reply to this comment
@Maria
I hope you are writing a screenplay. You are a funny and vivid writer.
I left a good grad program and felt bad for a long time for not finishing my paper. It's moldering away in the garage somewhere. I lost a few years on the rungs but caught up in 4 years with my fellow-MS crowd.
Nobody mentioned the sell jobs these grad programs are putting out! That is thing, as many others have said, you must look before you leap. Realize that grad schools, even the vaunted Ivys, are in their own way businesses selling a product.
Posted by sifi on 06/20/2008 at 12:58pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Personally I felt four years of college was enough higher education to prepare me to enter the workforce. It was my intention to enter graduate school after some experience in the workplace. However other life experiences took priority over graduate school and I did not go back to school for a graduate degree. It was the #6 bullet in this post that resonated with me.
Posted by Mark W. on 06/20/2008 at 01:14pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
My comment will most likely be lost in the hundreds of comments…but here it goes.
I don't think its an all or nothing thing. There are some graduate programs that do meet the 7 reasons Penelope mentions above, however there are other graduate programs that are awesome–many of which are attended by working professionals who learn from one another as much as they learn from the professor.
So before we pass judgment on all graduate degree programs lets think about what it means if we don't go to graduate school at all. I personally think that a Masters degree today is becoming like the Bachelors degree of yesterday…necessary for many jobs (not all, but many).
Posted by Heather Carpenter on 06/20/2008 at 02:08pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Bill said it all. Graduate school will only be outmoded when we no longer need people in the professions.
(I mean real professions: medicine, science, engineering, teaching, nursing, law, …)
Posted by Jim C. on 06/20/2008 at 02:24pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Nice post. While all the points make sense, the one that seems most powerful to me is "Graduate school requires you to know what will make you happy before you try it." I've seen too many people go through intensive preparation for a chosen career (including grad school) only to find that they day-to-day work they've spent years preparing for is something they hate.
Posted by Wally Bock on 06/20/2008 at 02:51pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Amen! When I graduated from college (a LONG time ago) I swore to myself that I'd never sit in a classroom again. I built a career (in spite of the BA in English and no grad degree), took 8 years off to be home with kids, and now have been rebuilding it for about 3.5 years. I've learned a ton, tried many different jobs–project manager, meeting planner, web content developer, writer–half the fun is getting in the door at a company then looking around and deciding which job looks like fun. Again, I'm not making a fortune, but then again, I make a decent amount and have no doubt that I'll be making plenty within a few years. Not to mention no school loans to pay off.
Oh–and my ex-husband who spent 10 years getting a PhD in statistics? Yes, he makes more than I do, but only because I was out of the job market for 8 years; I have no doubt that ultimately I will make way more than he will.
As far as I'm concerned, social media is doing a number on the traditional ways of doing business so investing time and effort getting a business-related degree is a waste of time. By the time you finish the program, the workplace will have continued to morph and who knows how much of what you learned will already be obsolete. Maybe not so much for lawyers or number crunchers, but who knows?
Posted by maggie on 06/20/2008 at 04:56pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
i disagree with 100% of this post, because my experiences contradict almost all of her points. i have an MNA (master's of nonprofit administration) degree and i no longer work in the nonprofit field. i get nothing but positive comments about the fact that i even have a grad degree at all. no one really seems to care that i'm not using it (and i'd argue that i am using because i learned fundamentals of administration along the way that can be applied in almost any field). not to mention that a degree like an MBA is probably applicable to those 5 careers you will have in your life anyway. and also, what's so bad about LEARNING? she doesn't even mention that some people actually go to grad school to learn stuff! she can have her opinions about all of this, but the fact is that all things being equal if you're competing w/ someone for a job and you have a grad degree and the other candidate doesn't, you have the edge. i cringe at the idea that education is pointless.
Posted by brooke on 06/20/2008 at 05:38pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This assumes that everyone goes to grad school immediately after undergrad. I waited 10 years before I went back to grad school and managed to get a Masters in communications that significantly helped my career, enabling me to become a consultant, make my own hours, and essentially write my own ticket.
I guess there are exceptions to every rule.
Posted by Judi McLaughlin on 06/20/2008 at 06:20pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Not sure who the above post is really for. Most entrepreneurs already don't go to Grad School, yet, everyone who is a professional (Doctor, Lawyer, etc.) has to. Most upper management in the Public Sector also has to have an M.P.A. or MURP or M.S.W. People who changed careers like me needed it to enter a new field and make contacts.
And there are others who go to Grad School to actually learn instead of just being career oriented.
This group of people I listed are hardly "desperate". Is your target for this post just people who feel insecure because they are not as learned as their competitors? And isn't this post recycled from your October MBA post (which was more on point)?
Posted by Sidney on 06/20/2008 at 06:24pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Oh, and approximately 67% of Forbes 500 CEO's have some sort of advanced degree. Pity those poor desperate people raking in tens of millions of dollars.
Posted by Sidney on 06/20/2008 at 06:26pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Now onto my 2nd grad program (first an MD, now back for a PhD)- i would agree with the above posts that the most useful advice would be for new college grads to _wait_. go out, work, and explore. i love what i am doing, but would never have known it at 21.
maybe the post needs to be generalizing and somewhat controversial, just to get people to talk and think.
Posted by stillnorealjob on 06/20/2008 at 08:12pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Makes complete sense. Paul Graham has a Ph.D. His startup cofounders also managed to get Ph.D.s apparently. Besides the fact that he is successful, it seems people actually listen to him more carefully because he has some expertise in programming languages and such. The expertise may not require a Ph.D, but a Ph.D. (usually) implies expertise in something. His idea behind the "corporate ladder being obsolete" is tied to people doing startups, instead of, say, someone going to work as a software developer at some random company WITH/WITHOUT a graduate degree. I think he himself recommends grad school in some situations "Likewise, if your professors try to make you learn stuff that's more advanced than you'll need in a job, it may not just be because they're academics, detached from the real world. They may be trying to make you lift weights with your brain." (http://www.paulgraham.com/college.html) Why use a source like that when you dont take the time to investigate more carefully? People who go to grad school usually learn to present things in a more balanced and less sensational way.. after checking to see if the sources really MEAN what they say. But wait, I suppose one first needs to go to grad school to get such training.
Posted by ohreally? on 06/21/2008 at 01:29am | permalink | Reply to this comment
You're right that people shouldn't go to graduate school just for the hell of it. But I think you're wrong both about the practical issues in going/deciding to go and the benefits of graduate education. First of all, there are many opportunities to "try" before you "buy." Most graduate schools offer post-baccalaureate opportunities. At the University of Missouri, for example, a college graduate can be "admitted" to the Graduate School in about a half hour using our online application and can sign up for courses in a range of disciplines. Up to 12 hours (four regular courses) can count for a degree program.
There are also plenty of certificate programs and shorter ways of doing "graduate education" without committing yourself to four or five years for the PhD.
Most people are glad they went to graduate school–and enrollments are increasing, rather than decreasing (which is what your article would seem to suggest should be happening).
George Justice
Associate Dean, Graduate School
University of Missouri
Posted by George Justice on 06/21/2008 at 07:30am | permalink | Reply to this comment
As one from the technical arena, graduate degrees in science keep the US competitive in a global market. Of course, if you visit a few graduate programs for science, you'll find most Americans agree with your assessment since the programs are mostly populated with students from foreign countries. Time will tell us the value of those advanced degrees, especially if we become dependent upon other countries for advancements in science.
Posted by Todd Rhoad on 06/21/2008 at 04:31pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
As a hiring manager at a tech company, we've found it to be disadvantageous to hire people with Masters or PhD's for two reasons: 1) They've shown more interest in thinking about the problem and perfecting the dissection of it than actually solving it, which wreaks of academia; 2) The salary expectations relative to tangible experience and working knowledge are not congruent. While these are generalizations, of course, when you have a bunch of candidates and limited time, you have to make some underlying assumptions to be efficient with your time. PhD's, in particular, don't seem to have any urgency when it comes to getting stuff done in a startup environment. A number of our best engineers don't even have completed degrees at all. Education is the last thing we look for in terms of a candidate's merit (and I could not possibly care less about where you went to school, by the way), but we may very well eliminate people with a decade of schooling for lack of practical skills.
And for the dense commenters hammering on Penelope in defense of grad school for highly specified fields like advanced medicine, those of us with any logic and reasoning whatsoever already assume she's not speaking to those types of people and degrees. They're obviously relevant and beneficial. I only hope these limited-awareness commenters are not the people pursuing those degrees or we're all in trouble.
Posted by Brian Johnson on 06/21/2008 at 10:13pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Wow. Medicine and Law are NOT graduate degrees. They are good degrees in many cases but are not graduate degrees, or even what Penelope alluded to.
Science nonwithstanding (and a few arenas of engineering,) what PhD is worth anything?
Yet we hear "the BA is the new high school diploma". Crunch!
Posted by James on 06/22/2008 at 12:51am | permalink | Reply to this comment
@James – on what basis did you conclude that Penelope was not referring to law?
Maybe read the post properly before valiantly jumping to her defence (I'll give you a hint: paragraph 3) and you will see she makes her usual resentful (and WILDLY predictable) dig about going to law school.
Posted by Mark on 06/22/2008 at 02:33am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, I completely disagree. Graduate school should not be your next step because you dont know what else to do with yourself, but it is NOT an extension of childhood. Anyone who's been through a good, tough, respected program will agree with me.
I'm not doing medicine, law, or business, or science, but for the field I'm in a Masters (and sometimes a PhD) is still required for the jobs I'd eventually like to be doing. I'm going to have to seriously consider this, but I probably won't get where I want to go with only a Bachelors.
And I don't think not using your degree makes you unemployable. If the workplace is as fluid as you say, then an employer would not deem you 'unemployable'….
Posted by Sumayya on 06/22/2008 at 09:38am | permalink | Reply to this comment
@ Mark
You are right. Doh. One can do far worse than law for graduate degrees, assuming you consider law school graduate school.
Posted by James on 06/22/2008 at 02:47pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Nice post! It got me thinking so I blogged about my experience in choosing a major here: http://tinyurl.com/6z9z4l
Posted by Simon on 06/22/2008 at 09:24pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Dumb it down nation.
Posted by dustin on 06/23/2008 at 07:58am | permalink | Reply to this comment
When I read this almost identical article of yours about MBAs, I listened. When I read it about law school I became skeptical. Now that you are saying all graduate degrees are worthless, I am kinda of laughing.
When I made the decision to get my masters, I was told by several not to bother. It took me 2.5 years part time and was paid for by my place of employment.
After graduating, I looked for another job and quickly found one offering a 30k raise from my current salary. I went to my current employer and told them and they instantly matched it in order to keep me. I am in charge of several people and they are either my age or older. They all can't believe it when they hear how old I am (31).
In my case, my Masters made ALL the difference. Now I am just deciding what is next.
Posted by john on 06/23/2008 at 08:16am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I’m a believer that an education is never wasted. However, grad school is an investment of one’s money and time. You’re right about the fact that grad school doesn’t guarantee job security or happiness.
Posted by Ellen Hart on 06/23/2008 at 11:45am | permalink | Reply to this comment
As a recruiter for a Fortune 500 company I cannot agree with you more! Graduate school is a big investment of time and money and with it comes an ego from the grad student that is often not justified from a recruiter’s point of view. I see students with their MBA's who have little or no real world experience and are expected their 1st job to be paying 6 figures. Not money well spent if you ask me, if after all of that, they find themselves in the same jobs that a undergrad with 2-3 years of experience would be qualified for. But I see students doing it all the time for fear that if they don’t do it now, right after graduation from college, they never will.
Posted by Jen Jacobs on 06/23/2008 at 01:09pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
The recruiters of Fortune 500 companies would like to have it easy, they don't want to deal with motivated and demanding candidates. It's in their interest to keep attrition and salaries to the low end.
Posted by dustin on 06/23/2008 at 01:32pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Although I agree that you can go a long way in on–the-job training, this article smacks of signaling that we are at the peak of the employment business cycle when jobs are aplenty and companies are willing to hire any warm body and train them.
Things will be different in another year or so when jobs are much more scarce. Workers will be looking for ways to 1) fill their spare time because they are unemployed and 2) improve their skills and employment prospects with a graduate degree.
I notice that P seems to be very up on the "in" trend of the moment. We'll have to see if her tune changes with the reversal of this current trend.
Posted by Jo on 06/23/2008 at 05:59pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This is getting a little silly – we're basically trading examples of people for whom grad school is a good idea and people for whom it isn't. The initial post is based on a number of generalizations – about school, work, and what people want/need from both – so it's not surprising that it contradicts what many people have experienced in life.
Posted by john on 06/24/2008 at 12:38am | permalink | Reply to this comment
This article is extremely true, but I would extend it to a bachelor's degree as well.
Posted by Pirate Jo on 06/24/2008 at 09:02am | permalink | Reply to this comment
The wife is in grad school, but she is doing it the right way.
She graduated with a BS in nursing eight years ago. After working as a nurse for these eight years, she has learned that she really enjoys her work and would like to expand those opportunities, she is going to grad school to become a nurse practitioner.
She is one year through a two year program. It has been a good move financially and professionally.
Posted by Novel on 06/24/2008 at 09:38am | permalink | Reply to this comment
When I look at my student loan balance, I think, "Why the hell did I go to grad school?" But it has gotten me in doors that otherwise would have been closed. And helped me get my current job, which I love and pays me enough I might finally be able to pay off those loans. So I can't knock my degree completely.
Posted by Susan on 06/24/2008 at 10:52am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Great post – I speak from experience.
I studied a MS degree at night while working. I was somewhat interested in the topic and thought that it could be leveraged in the area where I was working. For a while, the degree did help me excel in my job despite not being directly in the same field.
Then, the company went to hell. I was laid off with nearly my entire department. The company had to use an auditorium in shifts to explain the severance policies.
I found a job quickly through my university placement program, but I was completely boxed in by the new degree. Although, in the short term, it worked out well — I received a significant pay raise during a downturn due to the degree.
In the longer term, I feel that I am tied to the degree field. Now that I have six years experience working in the field, it is especially true. I am looking for some of that career change/reinvention that you talk about but will probably need to take a pay cut.
Like Susan (previous comment), I can't knock the degree too much because it really saved my finances at a critical point. Plus, I now earn well above my peers who were watching football and drinking beer while I was studying. However, today the degree feels like a career restraint tying me to my field.
Posted by Pardon the Anonymity on 06/24/2008 at 11:19pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
As a career counselor for college graduates and young professionals, I often find that people choose grad school for lack of a better alternative. I work with many clients who participate in a self assessment to see what they want to do FIRST. If grad school is applicable then so be it. More often that not, grad school is ruled out pretty quickly once solid career goals have been set.
Posted by susan kenendy on 06/25/2008 at 11:12am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Follow Penelope's advice only if you feel extremely lucky and sure that every situation will break your way. It might work pretty well until you hit your 40s. Age discrimination happens and you will need every advantage. A graduate degree makes a difference in your credibility and reputation. I didn't go to graduate school and wish I had — I believe it would make a difference in my job search at 50, and would have made a difference in my earning and career growth capacity in the last 10 years. It's hard — not impossible, but not even remotely easy — to go back to school at this age.
Posted by lainie on 06/25/2008 at 04:06pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This blog and all the subsequent posts show the copious amount of people out there with massive egos who feel the need to be herd (pun intended). Would it be such an empty life to keep your opinion to yourself?
Posted by Arthur on 06/25/2008 at 04:20pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Yes. Yes. Yes. This is so true and I wish everyone considering grad school would take this kind of talk seriously. Unfortunately most people googling this kind of thing are already convinced of the value of grad school and are invested in being the exception to the overwhelming rule of grad school. I wish that my husband and I had known more about grad school before sinking 4 years and thousands of dollars of debt into it with little to show (humanities/education respectively). I wish I'd spent those years at least working a job that made money (seriously: anything paying above $20,000 would beat the salary I've worked for since I was 23) and thinking about what I wanted to do with myself, and learning about how the world works. Now I look at the life we thought we would have and ask myself, "We thought we'd spend 8 years of our lives, at $10,000 per year in loans, and then get jobs at the same place in a place we would want to live that would pay OFF those loans in a job market where there are 7 graduates for every 1 job?" WHAT WERE WE THINKING? And yet it's impossible to see the forest for the trees when all your friends and mentors are so invested in that exact scenario working out perfectly. When I talk to my grad school peers about quitting, they actually suggest a different degree program rather than waking up to reality. If you're thinking about grad school, stop! It's not the fantasy you think it is, and it will not pay off down the line. I only wish I'd known this and had gotten off this crazy ride earlier.
Posted by Lauren on 06/26/2008 at 01:31pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Gawd what a stupid post. Let's see…my company paid for my MBA (many good ones do that you know) then they sent me to Europe for 3 years where I had an absolute blast. Now I'm working in NYC.
Yup, good advice, skip all that and do the start-up whatever thing! Rock on Garth!
Out of the 1,000's of working folks I've met, probably only about 5 could pull off a start up like event. If you're that ~1 in 5k, have at it. Otherwise think about school.
Posted by Jonathan on 06/28/2008 at 10:27pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I fail to see Penelope's euphoria in "being lost" in your twenties. As someone with a Bachelor's Degree in Political Science, me and most of my friends with liberal arts degrees are pretty much stuck working either in an office as say data entry, paralegal (now they're moving this down to 10-12/hr), telemarketing, RETAIL, or waiting tables. Right now I'm making $11/hr working security. I hardly see what's so great about "being lost" or "jobhopping" especially with 10% or more inflation in the price of FOOD and GAS/TRANSPORTATION (even the bus fares are raising)–things you HAVE TO buy. Um, personally I don't see what's so great about HAVING TO eat ramen noodles, and to stand out in the sun/rain/snow waiting for the bus!
In other words, what about when this RECESSION hits full swing and the retail sales commissions or tips from waiting tables are cut, when corporations start cutting low level office and other low level jobs… WAKE UP! 1 in 4 people in Michigan are on food stamps, 1 in 8 in Ohio… The days of low-skilled decent-paying jobs are OVER! Now sounds like a great time to BEEF up any qualifications and special skills–whether that be in professional school, or grad degrees in engineering/science, nursing/teaching, or trades such as mechanic or plumber. Especially when sciences and engineering grad degrees often pay you free tuition and a stipend which is worth more than the $12/hour job you're working! The reason people are changing jobs more is because of outsourcing, the increase in farming out work to temp agencies, and the end of the social contract between the corporation and the employee, and layoffs! Career change does NOT equal voluntary change or necessarily upward change!
I think we can all agree with the trivial and obvious point Penelope is trying to make–Don't be foolish and spend money to get a grad degree in humanities, social sciences, or anything else that is in a non-essential recession-vulnerable field; and research the job outlook of the degree you are pursuing, and this doesn't mean asking a career counselor (read= salesman for the college) at the college!
Posted by Pete on 06/30/2008 at 05:28am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penny,
I agree that for some/many, graduate school is a bad idea. But for me and many people like me it is one of the only ways that we can engender the confidence in our abilities that others do not have to work as hard to receive.
I'm specifically talking about the peripheral cues that people use to assess other people. As has been said here before, recruiting staff, tend to hire people they like or who are most like them. It's just a fact of life. But what if you are not like everyone else in that particlar workplace? "Graduate school is an extreme investment for a fluid workplace" but try getting into that workplace when everyone thinks you don't belong there.
Were it not for my MBA, I would not have gotten the interview for my current job. Yes, I am currently surrounded by others who do not have graduate degrees, but they networked, worked, talked, lucked and transferred their way into the department. I am the only one with an MBA, and the ability to do some of the analysis that is done in the department, but because I don't have the typical corporate "look", many opportunities went, and still go around, over or past me. For me it was a "ticket to play" and I would be hard pressed to believe that it is not still the case for many others like me.
Life is what it is, but being different means that you often have to put out more effort (graduate school included) to make the same progress in your career that others who do not have your baggage are required to exert.
My 2 cents worth.
Posted by Dale on 06/30/2008 at 04:20pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I agree, graduate scholl is not for everyone, that's for sure, but the less professionals available in the US more work will outsourced to India and China. In my field, engineering, I won't hire someone just because looks smart or because is smart, that's not enough.
I think this post could be miss guiding for a young people i search for a profession.
Posted by zaxl on 07/05/2008 at 12:56pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
One of your best Penelope.
If MBA programs taught their grads how to grow a pair and spend more time developing goals, and less time learning trendy management theories, then those programs might have more value.
Posted by Doug on 07/07/2008 at 05:45pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This article was great but not applicable to those of us in the biomedical/natural sciences. Tuition is paid for by your department and your salary is derived from your professor's/department's grants. Furthermore, unfortunately the PhD is the "ticket to play" and without it, your career is limited. Also, graduate school is the forum for networking in the sciences.
Posted by Brandt Levitt on 07/08/2008 at 04:24pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
So what if you're presently IN Grad School? Hmm?
I'm in an area studies program now that I really like. I received a generous fellowship for a portion of my study, and have worked part-time some semesters and have taken others off to focus strictly on school.
My priorities have changed and so have my ideas about where grad school can take me. In my case the degree isn't highly specialized. So what I will be forced to do is really market myself. But this is what everyone must do.
I know in some ways grad school will be a set-back–I've lost a couple of years of full-time work experience and the earnings that go along wih them. But I've also had really great experiences, met wonderful and interesting people, and have even learned a few things in the process. And now I know for sure that I don't want a PhD when I always thought I did before.
Posted by Erin on 07/09/2008 at 11:52pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This article is not well researched. Maybe if it took me 4 whole years to finish grad school, I would write a crappy article like this too. I am in last year of my grad school. It's been nothing but hard work, dedication and determination and it has benefited me a lot. And, no I didn't go to grad school because I need constant praises and approval from my professors. What kind of grad school did you go to?
Posted by loveGradSchool on 07/11/2008 at 04:20pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I object to the idea that graduate school is an extension of childhood. For many of my peers who have walked into engineering, law, or medicine (the trinity of respectability in this troubled land), they are just as petulant as their parent and exhibit the ultimate form of childishness; brute materialism.
Posted by Matthew Adams on 07/12/2008 at 05:44am | permalink | Reply to this comment
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/24/how-to-identify-someone-who-is-giving-you-bad-advice/
Posted by Daniel on 07/21/2008 at 01:39pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope. You make excellent points on how Grad School can be a hinderance to career. I agree, the extra expense in education is often not worth it in today's fast-pace, fickle job world. I'm an older GenXer – been working 13 years and, I've changed jobs 6 times since college. (looking for job#7 currently) Those people who have their company telling them they need a more advanced degree in order to gain promotion, should consider the risks and benefits very carefully. It might be wiser to put an extra $80,000 in your home or IRA rather than education. GenX and GenY may not have the same Social Security or Medicaid benefits our parents do now, when we reach our 60's.
Posted by lazysouth4 on 08/05/2008 at 02:52pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I think it's rather cute that the plebs need to feel good about their lack of intellectual abilities by denegrating their superiors in that realm, but it is rather sad that so many people can't see through such flimsy argumentation.
I'm so glad I studied logic in graduate school such that I can see what utterly illogical hogwash this article really is. There are plenty of reasons not to go to graduate school, but that still will never make graduate school a useless waste of time — especially not if you're talented at what you do and get a top notch degree.
I realize most of you don't have a quarter the brain power that I do, and hate the fact that we'll have good jobs, low hours, and fun work. You'll hate it even more that we'll find it beneath ourselves to have to teach most of you, and would rather just work on our research. Perhaps if your parents were intelligent enough to get into graduate school, they will bear children who are also intelligent enough to survive a graduate degree and become a better person for it. Perhaps if laws restricting dolts from populating the world with more of their own kind were enacted, less people would think this article has some sort of merit and that the idiot who wrote it was in any way qualified to write the book she did. Just a thought …
Posted by What a load of self-serving rubbish. on 09/03/2008 at 12:54pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
My MFA program was 3 years (I just finishing in June). And any respectable MFA is 3 years (Masters of Fine Arts, i.e. in art, not writing). They granted me graduate teaching fellowships which included monthly stipends and a tuition waiver. If you get into a well funded program, and save some money before hand, you shouldn't ever have to pay 80K. It's even better in the field of healthcare, where there is so much funding available. My boyfriend attained his PhD and MD and did not pay a penny for it, due to the service he did as a resident. And all the MDs I know are pretty darn happy doing what they do. Yes, there is stress and challenge, ups and downs, but in any high level profession with lots of responsibility, wouldn't that be normal? I also have attorneys in my family and they are quite happy. In this day and age though, I don't believe all attorney or physician positions allow for a luxurious life style; more so they allow for comfort and some security if they live within their means. Outside this, you absolutely cannot teach on a university level without my degree, so it was essential for me to get it. The program taught me how to view things from a new perspective and think critically like I had never done before. And my professors were anything but "praising." It was like boot camp for the mind. Even if I don't end up being a professor in the long run, I have learned intellectual, professional and emotional skills that will apply in any profession.
Posted by Jjj on 09/25/2008 at 10:21pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
As a recent college undergraduate I can tell you all this….
In a perfect world, all of the smiling, resume giving, and note taking you did at your college career fair would have paid off immediately after you were handed your 60k+ piece of sheep skin, but it does not. Most companies and government agencies now list a bachelors as their “minimum” requirements. Furthermore, many recruiters at career fairs (especial those on the federal side) are not really there to look for applicants, unless they have specialized skills (i.e. majored in engineering), they are just there to pass time.
Unless you are privileged to have a “daddy” with connections on the inside, you are going to be in line with everyone else, and possibly even working at 7-11 to get by till your apps come through.
*Bachelors Degrees are a dime a dozen, and what employers really look for is experience,contacts,and work history. Today, anyone with enough money can go to any major university and BUY a degree. Hetch, they can be purchased online as well…
*Your GPA and area of study do not matter. I had well over a 3.0, but so did just about the 1500 students in my school of study who graduated with me. Unless you are applying for graduate school or majored in a specialized field, employers do not care your GPA or what educational skills you gained from your study. They are only impressed if you were at the top of your class, have some graduate level work, or have years of work experience. If you try to make “grades” the focal point if your “skills” on your resume or during an interview, the interviewer may take it as insult or view you as a “know it all” with no real experience.
*Currently employers are looking for those with either a lot of work experience (+3 full time) or graduate levels of education.
*Your internships, work study, or previous part time work experience do not matter unless you made strong connections and got good referrals from those jobs.
*Government agencies are notorious for taking forever to respond to applications, and (from my own personal experience)they may call you in for interviews or test only to tell you you are inexperienced (already knowing that you were not what they were looking for.) Agencies/departments that recruit at colleges and career fairs do this the most.
*Yes, it is true, many employers have unrealistic expectations of recent undergrads, especially those in high end companies and government agencies. They want applicants as young a new born lamb, but experienced as father time. In light of this there are three areas that WILL get you noticed when you apply for any job. They are LANGUAGES spoken, COMPUTER SKILLS acquired, and GRADUATE LEVEL COURSE WORK (a hint to all of those who are still undergrads or on their way to college.)
* Unless you are applying for jobs in specialized fields, i.e. engineering, medicine/health, law, IT, accounting, etc. your graduate level work (if you decide to pursue it)really will not matter to employers. Most are simply impressed that you completed some sort of program somewhere….undergraduate degree…forget about it.
*In a perfect world EEOC, Fair Labor Standards, and non discriminatory mission statements would ensure that everyone’s interview lead to a job or at least got a fair shake. The truth is many apps are disqualified and many applicants are turned down for petty reasons. “Lack of experience” is often a code for, “Your young, and therefore stupid for wasting my time, come back when you fit my expectations not the company’s…”, “I just do not like the way you look…” “Our diversity quota is full…” or finally, “You will NOT help us meet our diversity quota…”
Face the facts, nepotism, contacts, and quotas are the way of the work world. A lot of HR managers have an axe to grind (and take their frustrations out on new applicants) and a lot more just generally dislike young applicants. It does not matter if your black, white, yellow, brown, the deck is stacked against you and even more so if you are young, have no contacts within the place you are applying for, and or lack a graduate, specialized, or IVY League level of education.
Posted by professionalism on 09/26/2008 at 02:41am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'm not sure I agree with the grad school bit. Obviously it is going to depend on what field you work in, but these days it is much more common for people to have undergraduate degrees. Finding a job with only a high school degree is a rare thing, and having a graduate degree is a good way to set oneself apart from the competition. Also, most master's programs are around 2 years. Professional programs (DMD, JD, MD, DVM) can be longer, but generally you can't enter the field without them. Personally, I finished my master's program in three semesters and I am glad I got it over with right out of school instead of trying to balance it with a full time job. I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts though, even if I don't necessarily agree with all of them!
Posted by Nate on 10/27/2008 at 02:14pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, thank you for another insightful & helpful article.
I must admit, I have to smile when I read the comments from others describing graduate school as "the best decision they ever made" or "the best thing they ever happened to them." Of course, there's no one right path for everyone – graduate school is definitely the right choice for some. But how can we ever say any one thing was "the best thing that ever happened" or "the best decision we ever made"? We'll never know if that's true. If something else would've happened or we would've made a different decision, our lives could have taken just as meaningful and rich a path. We could have been just as happy and fulfilled as we are today, having made other choices. We'll never know, and that's part of the excitement of it all. It's bittersweet knowing we only have one go-round.
Posted by Lauren on 01/15/2009 at 12:53pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This post is right-on, and therefore I am saddened. The real question for me is, what are the sciences going to do as people gradually realize the uselessness of a PhD?
I currently have a job doing psychology research because I love doing it, but have refrained from applying to graduate school because, well, it's SCHOOL, and who likes school? Yet, the more I work, playing in a lab, doing studies, and reading the literature, the more I wish there was an actual post-college vocation called "research" that didn't involve a higher degree (as it is, I don't get paid enough to survive). It could be a section of academia that lives thriving in a furious storm of the latest published work and self-taught, self-propelling scientists, much like the blogosphere provides a forum for anyone who wants to talk, and allows those who are the most impassioned to thrive talking. It would revolutionize science, to have thousands of excited graduates just churning out ideas and data, and reading, reading, reading, without the confines of meetings, advisers, advisees, classes, and requirements.
Posted by Cat Thrasher on 02/27/2009 at 10:21pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Of course graduate school is an extension of childhood. That's the beauty of it. That's also the beauty of academia in general. Professors are the least grown up bunch of grownups around. Also notice that professors are some of the happiest people.
Posted by Martin on 03/03/2009 at 10:30am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I couldn't agree more with the "Seven Reasons Why Graduate School is Outdated". I only wish I had taken these points into serious consideration before enrolling in a two-year master's degree program in 2005 in Media Arts at Emerson College in Boston. Yes, you heard correctly, media arts. It proved to be a colossal mistake for me.
Here's what happened: Upon graduating from college with a bachelor's in political science, I worked in government for a while. It was stable, secure, and I could deal with the nature of the work. However, it bored me to death and I didn't have any genuine interest in politics and government. So after some intensive introspection and soul searching I found that one of my true passions, though I had barely any experience with it, was making movies. What was I to do for a career in this? I didn't know, but I thought a graduate degree in something like film or media would certainly help propel things forward. Boy, was I wrong.
I considered film school, but found that all film schools were extremely selective and applicants needed to submit a portfolio, which I did not have, and had no idea how to go about developing at the time. I came upon a masters program in media arts at Emerson, a "liberal" and apparently "artsy" school in Boston. I enrolled in the program initially because I had a passion for the creative side of film and media (AKA-MAKING MOVIES). However, as it turned out I learned virtually nothing during these two years and developed no marketable skills whatsoever. I did not acquire any substantive academic knowledge, technical skill, or motivation from professors or peers. I did not meet anyone whom I was able to establish any substantive connection with (you know, you think you might meet a group of friends in school, stay in touch, and maybe start a company down the line) – didn't happen. So not only was it a waste of time and money, but it also turned out to be a tremendous setback. I could have stayed in government, maybe pursued film on the side as a hobby while trying to channel myself into a different, more interesting field of work down the line. It was a horrible personal mistake on my part, and the severity of the problem is due in no small part to the specific school and program I attended. However, it does stand as a testament to the potential dangers of jumping into graduate school. So, my strong advice to anyone considering graduate school would be to obviously give the specific program serious thought and also think seriously about what you will do with the degree. With the possible exception of an MBA or Law degree, which seem to be pretty marketable across broad areas, graduate school is very specified, or at least appears specified on your resume to employers. I know it is difficult some times, but be smart about it, heed the "seven reasons" above.
Posted by David on 03/19/2009 at 07:16pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Thanks for publishing this. I'm almost 25 years old, possibly heading towards the ol' quarter-life crisis, and i'm currently in the process of dropping out of my grad program after almost a year into the program. I saw grad school as the next logical step in bettering myself and my passion for what i do, however i quickly realized that most graduate students are young people my age who are just scared to grow up, and most of the professors in my program have no concept of constructivist teaching; the product they sell is traditionalist, rote-memorization formatted education that has little or no carry-over to the real world. it's funny how trade schools are popping up all over to help those enrolled to get jobs in the field, and universities, which originally were havens that harbored critical thinking, have now abandoned critical thinking for the primary purpose of teaching their students how to get jobs. The caveat here is that trade schools, although often looked down upon, are doing a better job of what they intend to do and universities are doing a horrible job at what they claim to do.
Posted by Charlie on 03/20/2009 at 12:48am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I don't know about this. Myself and plenty of the other "biology major" students who are graduating in a month are headed for professional schools…medical schools, vet schools, doctor of physical therapy (me= three years plus summers of grad study and clinicals). And while I absolutely can't speak for all of them, I can testify that I, after thorough research of my chosen career and tons of observational hours (required simply to APPLY to school), have decided to get into my field because I want to help people and I think that I would be very good at it. Period. A professional doctorate is needed, so I will get it. I don't want to prolong childhood, I don't necessarily yearn for praise, and I definitely don't think this is the easy choice. I do, however, want to learn as much as possible. Some people do go to graduate school because they love to learn and to research, and while my degree is a "professional degree", I will get the chance to do some research and participate in some important projects. And I love to learn. There are people like that out there.
On the other hand, I can say that this is a small population of people, from what I have gathered. But it does exist.
Posted by Laurie on 03/30/2009 at 07:56pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
While I don't agree with everything you are saying, I think you are 100% right when you said "Graduate school requires you to know what will make you happy before you try it." I spent two years in grad school, prior to getting a great job offer. To make a long story short I quit school for that job and have found that nothing I learned in grad school applies to my job even though my job title is exactly what I majored in. Now that I have worked for a while I am going to a different program that is more tailored to my needs, particularly a professional studies program that is actually tailored to working people. Most of what I learned in grad school was theory rather than practical knowledge. If we are in the business of teaching people how to do things we need to leave the theory for ph.d and give masters students the chance to learn how to do things at an advanced pace (sort of a step above undergrad).
Posted by Amber on 04/02/2009 at 10:50pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This article is ridiculous. The author obviously has no idea what she's talking about when it comes to true academia, because this article is absolutely, totally, completely irrelevant to any PhD programs.
Posted by Rebecca Payne on 05/17/2009 at 11:19pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
this blog post is just terrible. its obvioulsy bbeen writen by someone who has not attended graduate school. We all go to university to gain knowledge in order to seperate ourselfs, in a way, from those who do not go. Education is a signaling device for perspective employers, the more of it you have the better your chances are of doing better. This author clearly doesnt know anything about about economic theories on the subject, even though he is quoting people with an economic background, who by the way must have attended graduate school………
Posted by mr luggage on 06/07/2009 at 08:43pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
My personal opinion is that if you want to be a doctor or lawyer then you HAVE TO go to grad school. However, for those that pursue business school if you are not going to an ivy league school (looks good on resumes) then I think it is pointless. Business school can NOT teach you to hustle and work hard, that is up to the individual. If there is something that really interests you then just go for it. Text books will not teach you how to motivate yourself to land a deal. An example of a great businessman and entrepreneur would be Gary Vaynerchuck (check his wine library tv site).
Posted by New York Forum on 06/23/2009 at 10:34am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hi Penelope,
As a graduate student 2 weeks from finishing my Ph.D. in the biomedical sciences field, I have to chime in and say that I couldn't agree with you more – every bullet point was spot on. Science (and grad school in general) totally sucks. I see all these thousands of Ph.D.'s and feel just absolute disdain for them – a bunch of losers. I was fortunate to have something else as a backup in case science ended up being a dead-end (which it basically is), and I'll be going down a more professional route than the academic route (bunch of losers, did I mention that before?). All I can hope to gain from my Ph.D. is to leverage the "prestige" of it as much as it can relate to my backup profession. So, not a total loss. A total loss would have been if I had just gone to grad school thinking it was a cool thing to do.
On another note, I'm a recent subscriber to your blog, and am now a big fan. Your stories are honest, insightful, and compelling. I applaud you. Cheers!
Dig
Posted by Dig Faster on 07/21/2009 at 04:45pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I am currently in the end-stages of a cognitive science phd, and while I love my subject area, I do not like the pace and temper of academic research. So…I agree that grad school is a pyramid scheme. I agree that it prolongs childhood. I agree there are many reasons NOT to go, but only GOING has made me realize that loving to learn and loving my subject area and being capable of doing quality research are NOT enough. So now what do I do? Your blog doesn't really address what to do when you FINISH grad school, and it was through that process that you realized the academic life is not for you. You make it sound like having a phd will be a blight on my resume, so please tell me how to overcome this blight. I have no debt, since they paid me to do my degree, and I have expert knowledge. That's not really so bad is it? Besides berating grad school, although I agree with many of your criticisms, I'd love to hear some advice for those of us moving away from an academic career.
Posted by natalie on 12/03/2009 at 02:53pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Your arguments about why one should not go to graduate school sound pretty convincing. However, from someone who actually skipped on a higher education, threw himself into working and has now returned to school to finish his degree, I’m not so sure about how valid these points actually are. No matter how much you fight it, the truth remains that a college education is the best possible way to insure higher earning power after graduation. There are a number of different majors to choose from, all paying differently but on the whole, a college graduate will earn more money than those who do not have a college education or degree. In fact, in keeping with the increase in demand by mature students, colleges are offering more options for students who wish to return to their education even after they have entered the work force. People now realize that it is never too late to increase your earning potential or improve your chances of being promoted by seeking a higher education. Whether it’s people taking a break from their jobs or switching careers and resuming their education or adults who return to complete education that was left unfinished the first time around, schools now offer special accelerated and online degree programs. This allows even more options for those students who are juggling careers, family, and their education. The truth of the matter is that there are no disadvantages to graduating with a college degree. Along with increasing one’s earning potential and promotion potential, the most important improvement occurs with one’s self-image. A college education gives one a sense of accomplishment and confidence that may be just what is needed in your professional and personal life.
Posted by Elida Wood on 12/05/2009 at 12:09am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I really don't understand where your information comes from! Have you REALLY been reading job advertisements and applying for work anywhere before you wrote this?
Grad school, I agree, would be an enormous waste of time and money for myself, but lets face it; the gate holders for MOST desirable positions either have Master's degrees or INSIST their candidates have such even before being considered.
How can you blaze your own trail, unless you are privledged with a trust fund or have someone supporting your highly unprofitable time of exploration and experimentation?
I am near 50, but have several decades of real and valuable expertise which is being jettisoned by interviewers the SECOND I set down (unquestionably due to my age), so please spare me the old saw of experience and determination overcoming obstacles in the workplace, because factors like medical group rates increases trump everything in this economy.
I don't think there is a grad school out there that could teach me much about my field of expertise, but you need to acknowledge that the concepts of life-experience and actual competence do not matter anymore to HR personnel who use templates and word recognition software to initially vet their interview choices.
I don't think you know what you are talking about.
Posted by Frank on 02/03/2010 at 12:39pm | permalink | Reply to this comment