You can still go to grad school w/ B’s. Maybe not to the top ones, but then again, as long as you love what you are doing, that won’t be so relevant.

You shouldn’t be aiming for making money. You should be aiming for making yourself happy as a person over the years with your job. Or else, you will be asking yourself in 20 years why did you want to make so much money, just like you are asking now why did you want to get all those As.

******

Good point about grad schools. Just like perfect grades, getting into the perfect school isn’t everything.

Also, I don’t think money and happiness are mutually exclusive. You can be happy with or without it. Money does, however, give you a greater range of choices, which might make it easier for you to find your ideal lifestyle.

-Jon

Amen to that. I've passed my whole college making good connexions (read: party) in the dorms and the great social skills I've aquired are worth much more then any grade.

I also share your experience that nobody has ever asked about my grades. In my case its a good thing because I used to say "D for DIPLOMA" so you can guess what my grades look like.

On arranged interviews for graduates I even passed straight-A students for top jobs because I was seen as much more "functional" socially and potentially a better team player.

Besides, nobody in the work force even has a clue about what you learn in College. Heck, my first job I was working with an ex car mechanic. How could he ever tell if I got A or D in anything?

I have found that *where* I graduated has been relevant a handful of times; the grades I got there, not once. (I didn't apply to graduate school.)

Even if you're focused on academics (as opposed to extracurricular activities or just having fun), it's important to distinguish between the goals of getting high grades and learning useful things.

Well said. You know what though, I think the biggest test in college/university is how quickly you learn the statement you've made about "…good grades aren’t going to help you…". I know people who years later still don't realise that it's who you are that will get you somewhere not what grade you get.

Grades will get your foot in the door but people skills are what will help you in all aspects of life. Everyone is looking at you thinking "How will working with you benefit me?"

Some good advice – especially the work experience part. Many 20somethings need to understand that work experience is not just a string of resume entries – rather, it is a string of actual accomplishments that made a tangible difference for their employers.

Did you ever think that you got 14 job offers because of your GPA? Maybe they would not have even let you in the door for an interview without a good GPA. Why would they then need to ask about it if it is on your resume to begin with?

One really bad piece of advice – sponging off of the parents. As a parent of one college grad and another in her junior year, I find it appalling that after parents invest in their child's education that they in any way have the entitlement to soak off of Mom and Dad so they can live it up. I sent my kids to college so they could learn that enjoyment of life comes not as an entitlement, but is the result of what one earns for themselves.

Why should my children get to drive luxury cars, party it up, and travel when these are the things we as parents sacrificed in our early adult years in the name of our kids being able to go to college and have the opportunity to become self-sufficient? This is absolute selfishness. If any of my kids ever came home, they would be paying room/board/expenses equivalent to what it would cost them to live on their own as a disincentive to consider it an option after a six figure investment in their education.

Yeah, growing up sucks, but, we all have to do it sometime. It's an eat what you kill world, and that is not changing anytime soon.

Steve, you make a great point about how as parents you make a lot of sacrifices in the name of your kids – too many to even count (not that you keep score). It was no free ride for me, and my mom and dad were definitely not 'connected.' As a result, it is up to me to turn tide for my kids and let me tell you it is tough (2 FT jobs, never sleep, baby on the way). And this is despite graduating college (and getting a masters). So, kiddos if you have the luxury to 'party' a bit in school you can thank dear old mom and dad for giving you a competitive starting point – and you can bet that they got old and boring by doing the things that it takes to put you where you are.

However, I am 27 years old and I can definitely identify with Jon. I agree with the sandbox analogy and think that college students underestimate the significance of this 'trial' period. I say as long as you have the opportunity (and money earned, not given), and it will not permanently damage your future, then try it. At least then you will not have to live with the 'what if's?' because life comes at you fast and you can't always take a 'make up.'

I was a math/civil engineering major and I too spent many 20-hour days studying to get that great GPA. I didn't have much of a social life to speak of, although I was involved in various honor societies. After working for 4 years I have found that I could have gotten to my current point (data monkey working for people with 20+ years experience by day, pizza delivery driver by night)-using half the energy. nobody really cares how smart you were in school – you have to create 'perceived' value for them. Otherwise you will be known as a 'book-smart' person who cant get the job done.

With that said, i do think that if I had toned it down a bit on the studies, maybe I would have had time to develop a more well-rounded social network (and possibly get more relevant work experience). If the network panned out then maybe 'party friends' could have became clients one day. My opinion is that the association with these friends would have been strategically much more valuable (and comforting!) to me than the ability to prove that every vector space has a basis, or how to solve second-order partial differential equations. I have not needed 1/4 of the stuff I learned in school, and I work in a technical profession. I know that sounds rough, but really, the company only cares about bottom line, and if your network allows you to land a $1M project then you have solidified your position more than any clever (smart) design could have. So my conclusion is that yes, grades can matter, but I think the social network is a much more powerful tool when it comes to making money in the workforce.

I'm glad you mentioned that you could have gotten B's and still had a life. To often students hear that "grades aren't as important as experience" and somehow translate that into "grades don't matter at all."

While I agree with the point that you could've gotten B's and had a more fulfilling college experience and a gotten a 'good job' to boot, I have to wonder what jobs you were applying for where no one asked about your GPA. Did you have it on your resume so that there was no need for anyone to ask? As a graduate of an Ivy League school where top companies came to recruit, you couldn't even get your foot in the door without stating your GPA in on-campus recruiting, and if you didn't go use on-campus recruiting, it still came up in some way, shape or form during interviews.
I think the best advice to glean from your post is that students should strive to achieve balance, not blow off their work entirely because that presents a whole different set of issues.

I have a few comments on this.

1. I got straight As in college and had plenty of time for people. I even had a double major, studied abroad, and ran a successful non-profit. I'm not sure why you had trouble doing this.

2. Plenty of people asked me about my GPA even when applying for jobs where it wouldn't have mattered. I have to wonder what type of jobs you were applying for.

3. I slept a lot. Probably more than I do now. And I got As all the time. Sure, I pulled an all-nighter here and there, but it wasn't obsessive.

4. I agree that work experience is more valuable, but I don't think you should sell short the value of having a solid educational bedrock.

Fair point. I, too, tried making great grades in school. I didn't do quite as well as you, I graduated with Magna Cum Laude, not Summa which I think 3.9 would have been at my school. :) However, I found out that my graduate position I held while in school- my boss who hired me for that position told me years later when I was leaving that he felt anyone could do the job, so he chose the candidate with the highest GPA. He saw that I graduate with honors in Undergrad and so he chose me! I had no idea good grades had paid off at all. All I had been told was that employers looked for grades and had never experienced that. So, it was nice to know he actually was judging on criteria I had! Who knew! I was glad he told me so as well.

maybe it depends on your major or career path? when i graduated college and was looking for that first job, grades were a determining factor. no one asked for specifics, but my GPA was asked for more than once. and i was never given interviews based on the fact that my GPA was merely average.

I can't say I agree with you, Jon. I majored in History because I loved it, and I learned to write and research and I still remember a lot of it too. And I find it incredibly useful to know a lot of history, because there's a great "story" aspect to it, and it gives me plenty to talk to people about at parties, etc. What I learned was critical thinking, which applies in all aspects of life.

Geezus, this blog is unbelievable. I give up, I can't read another one of these posts or a Penelope "personal issues" post again. You know what one of the points of a well-rounded liberal arts education is? To become a well-rounded, interesting person – "it's irrelevant, I forgot it…" SO FRACKING WHAT. You'll forget a lot in life, that doesn't mean that the experiences are worthless. Good luck building a career on "dude, the Wii is so frickin' righteous…"

If this is where our culture is going, dumb, shallow, conclusory and lazy, then God help us all. We'll be deserving whatever we get.

And to rebut one of your ending conclusions, law can be miserable and low paying but it sure isn't for everyone. I found my niche, made parter, love what I do, and have a good living. Generalizing from your feelings and limited experiences to an entire professional is immature and, again, ignorant.

And with this I'm going back to the adult publications, for good.

You need to not let your feelings cloud your thinking especially since you criticize against "generalizing from limited experience to an entire profession." You obviously can't see that you are guilty of what you disapprove because you are in fact generalizing that "another one of these posts or a Penelope personal issues post" are all the same.

This is the reason why you want to leave them and "go back to adult publications, for good." You need to go back to college and learn critical thinking skills. You said you studied law? "God help us all."

Jon,

How are things going for you now is the question? The reality about your higher education is that you are now equipped to decifer what is the best route for you to take and which is the one to avoid.

Don't beat yourself up too much, if you wish things were different then don't make the same mistakes twice. Go out now and make those things happen in your life that you think you have missed out on.

Stop crying, half of those so called networks you think that you have missed out on are busy doing what they do trying to make it each day too. Look at your success, you are a guest blogger on one of my favorite sites in all of the internet. I say you are already a success.

Blake

the worst thing to say is that gpa dosen't matter
i'm sure it got u in the door to those interviews and of course they dont ask u once ur interviewed wut ur gpa is cuz you've been screened. its the first tell on whether a person works hard consistently for 4 years in college and adds to some technical version of is this kid smart of not.

Good grades do matter if you're on an academic scholarship. That's the only way I could pay for school because I came from a poor family. I **had** to keep a 3.5 just for survival. Many poorer students or those on scholarships will find this is the case.

******

Yep, that's an excellent reason to get good grades.  Really, the point of
my post isn't that good grades are bad.  They aren't.  You just need
to think about what they're actually getting you and whether or not it's worth
it.

-Jon

People seem to think that just because grades don't mean everything to your success and personal fulfillment doesn't mean that they don't matter at all.
Employers/interviewers have seen my grades at all stages in my career and I have routinely received comments and reactions which show that they are important at least to an extent.
One time I was at an on-campus interview that fell right after many of the interviewees had just received grades in a class that directly related to the job. The interviewer asked me what I got, I honestly told him that I received a D and the interviewer's attitude changed at that point. I explained that this was a particluarly hard test and that the class average was actually 55% (ie a D) and I had scored a 54%. He wanted to recruit people who are competitive and are willing to do whatever it takes to complete a task despite other people's reactions or difficulties.

I ended up graduating in the more rigourous Honors program at my college but with only a 3.19 GPA overall. I regret deciding to go into the Honors program since it meant harder courses and more work and basically hurt my overall GPA.

Also, I have forgotten 99% of what I learned in my liberal arts classes but I use the information from my Business classes everyday. I regret not studying harder in those classes.

"I majored in English Literature and minored in Communication Theory….I spent all my time reading… literature and memorizing… communication theories."

Maybe you should have studied logic.

Jon, it sounds like your studies were a bit joyless to you. I was a straight-A college student too (well, 2 B's) but I LOVED my two majors. I picked subjects I was interested in, and the studying didn't seem as much like work.

True, I've forgotten much of what I've learned (liberal arts) but I totally agree with Kate: "What I [really] learned was critical thinking, which applies in all aspects of life."

Plus, the close relationships I made with professors and deans have lasted through the years. They have served as references, mentors, and friends. I don't think I would have made the same connection with then had I not been so involved in the material.

Oh – and I went on to law school. I wasn't planning that during undergrad, but I was glad to have the option. Shouldn't we encourage young people to live their lives so that as many doors are open as possible?

Reality is, people just want to see you have a college degree. They don't care what it is, or how good your GPA was.

Every interview I ever had went like this?

You have your degree?
> Yes, I got a a BS in…[cut off]

Yea, whatever, what experience do you have outside of academic activities?
> Oh….

If you don't have experience by the time your done with college, your in trouble. Internships, whatever, make sure you have them. And notice I said "Internships" not "Internship". That's intentional. Mandatory more than 1 semester/summer if you want to be taken seriously and not laughed out the office.

"The Cartalk guys aren’t exactly the bastions of academia but the advice struck a chord in me."

Actually both of the hosts have extremely good educations. Ray has a degree in general science from MIT and Tom has a degree in chemical engineering from MIT and an MBA and DBA from the BU Graduate School of Management.

As a computer science major, I have a different take on this. I never took my grades that seriously (although I wound up with a 3.2) because, even though the classes I took for my major were useful, they didn't apply that specifically to what I wanted to do when I graduated. I never suspected that any company would even ask about my GPA during interviews. I couldn't have been more wrong. The first question asked at my first five interviews (Google, Microsoft, Apple, IBM, and Amazon) was, "What was your GPA?" The google interviewer's demeanor even changed when I mentioned my GPA.

That said, I'm sure the matter of GPA probably depends on your major and career path. From what I've heard, however, the issue of GPA becomes less and less of a concern after ones first job.

When I applied for my current job, I was asked for my GPA. Fortunately, I have a 3.7, which is pretty good for the college I attended and was enough for graduating with honors. At my college people pulled all-nighters and gave up on social lives just to pass. What social lives they did have usually consisted of studying together, with maybe one party a term.

Jon,

I do disagree with the first point you made (and I apologize if my point is repetitive). No one ever asked about your GPA because most likely every recruiter ALREADY KNEW your GPA when you gave them your resume. You don't get into the door of a job interview without your resume, and you don't make a resume these days (especially if you've just graduated) without putting your GPA on there.

People were more interested in talking with you about your Chief of Staff position and your radio show, because there's not too much to talk about regarding grades (except if they say, "Hey. Nice GPA"). But believe me, recruiters notice the hard work you put into college, and I wouldn't discount anyone who works towards an "A" average in college.

That's my two cents anyway.

Matt

As someone who has interviewed lots of graduates for many years your first point about interviews misses the point: good grades may be a big part of the reason why you get selected for an interview, but they won't be the subject of the interview itself.

I also worked extremely hard to get straight As. I don't regret it. I would have been miserable with crappy grades. If nothing else, it's given me a strong work ethic.

I was fortunate that my program had a co-op element. It really helped me keep things in perspective.

I agree w/Kate on the value of a liberal arts degree (I did Eng. Lit., too, and minored in women's studies and philosophy…and I "only" made Magna.)

I spent the first year of my management career being paranoid that I couldn't talk the talk because I didn't get that business degree. Then I realized that all that Shakespeare that I read for the love of it was giving me insight into people. The rhetoric and logic, I drew upon to build my business cases, and the critical thinking…well, let's just say that it's possible to get a business degree without picking that up along the way.

(Not that all B.A's have it, either; more to say that no degree program has a lock on teaching the basic skills it takes to get the job done.)

Yes, the networking will give you a jump start on a successful career…if your goal is to maximize power and influence by conventional and/or social metrics; i.e. optimize yourself for fast promotability.

However, seems like in that case you'd be trading one type of "outward" success (straight A's) for another (influential member of business community; quick promotions). Six of one, half a dozen the other, I would think.

For my part, je ne regrette rien.

Some companies actually get scared away by a student with straight A’s who has no internships or other experiences outside of the classroom. But grades definitely can matter–especially in super-competitive industries such as consulting and investment banking.

You're exactly right. At the end of the day it’s better to have good (not necessarily great) grades while also taking on leadership roles like you did with student government and the radio station.

It sounds like, in the end, your hard work led to a well-rounded resume that helped you land quite a few offers. Not bad for a "straight A" student.

I got straight A's too. No way, I did too. People are so lame. 64 comments on how I got straight A's and still had a life or no life. Get back to work pretentious people. Assembly line is slowing down. Wait so is the economy. I wonder if there's a correlation why people are so dawmed busy at work reading blogs. I got straight A's and went to Harvard, and Oxford, my grades were so high I graduated Omega Suma Cum Loudly. People are different, work in different ways, there's no wrong or right.

This man feels that his work was a waste of time, well it is his own space to blog. We don't need all this negative feedback and elitist bullshit. Get back to work. Please spare me. Oh this liberal hippie, "Spare any change, Spare any pot for a change."

yeah, he's right. I got top grades at an Ivy and wound up going to a third-rate med school 'cause I'm a lousy interviewee. I said I'd never make that mistake again and work on being more well-rounded in med school. Except, guess what? You have no time to be well-rounded in med school! So of course I got a lousy residency (in a relatively competitive specialty, admittedly).

I'm in my late twenties. Is it too late to change, or am I going to be a lousy interviewee (and hire) forever? I really don't know how to party or network, and I wonder if my brain just isn't wired for it.

I can't believe the drivel I read here. I have been recruiting at a Fortune 100 company for 15 years, and believe me, grades matter. So do social skills. But don't think social skills by themselves with a 3.2 will get you an interview – it takes a 3.4 plus just to get through the initial screen. It is the same way at many other major companies. If you choose to ignore this, do so at your own peril, as you can never get your GPA back….

It should be noted that you don't really need to get straight A's in college, but that doesn't grant the license to get a D in every class. This is a great article, I'm going to feature it on my site for college students!

Wow I don't agree with some parts of the article but some of the criticisms for this article are just plain ridiculous and I really do wonder if trying to get the highest GPA turns people into snobs.

"Oh yeah, I graduated with a 4.0 GPA from a better school than you attended. How do I know that? I learned more than you did. Most people with lower GPAs probably learned more than you did."

Anyone with a GPA number can write a more intelligent post than this.

"And to rebut one of your ending conclusions, law can be miserable and low paying but it sure isn’t for everyone. I found my niche, made parter, love what I do, and have a good living. Generalizing from your feelings and limited experiences to an entire professional is immature and, again, ignorant."

Talk about being ignorant I'm sorry everyone who didn't have law go the same way it did for you.

My God, Jon, you got your studies paid for by your parents, got great grades, and you're still not satisfied. Stop whining, and make your life what you want it to be! Don't wait for them to come to you, but hunt the good jobs down using the knowledge that you gathered over the years.

Sure, there's no reason to KILL yourself for great grades, and maybe you could have spent some of your time differently. But the point is: you didn't! You've followed a certain path, and now you'll have to decide whether that path was correct, in which case you continue on it, or if it was wrong, in which case you look for a cross section that gets you on the right track.

Man, you're so lucky you had the ABILITY to study. Now go do something MATURE with it, and stop crying like a beaten up mama's boy.

I have to agree with those here who disagree with the blogger.

I was always a straight A-student. But I also won squarely the All-Rounder trophies in schools. I enjoyed a whole bunch of stuff in college including random stuff such as watching my class play cricket on Sundays, people, outdoorsy and cultural activities, formal and informal leadership roles in student affairs, and a whole lot of sleep! I am friends with a large % of people with whom I studied. Nearly everyone who taught me remembers me after all these years.

Thanks to all that, when I cite communication theory now – and I graduated with my engineering degree 15 years ago – it is steeped in a lot of cultural context, cross-disciplinary references and humour.

Grades are employers' concern at your first job which for many lays the foundation of their future. So they are not totally unimportant.

So what can I say?

That you missed out on a well-rounded education?

That genius for you was 99% perspiration but for many, it is not?

That this post was another one of the privileged-20-somethings who think they have 'lessons', when nearly 90% of those do not apply to others?

Thanks and good luck!

The only job that really matters what your GPA is, is the first job after school. After that, you better have a reasonably good showing at that job for your quest for a second. A lot matters in money making potential from where you start. Higher GPA's tend to translate into higher starting salaries. If then you are good at what you do, you will tend to make more money for the rest of your life than your peers who started out with a lower expectation from their employers who did loo at you GPA before the interview. I have interviewed many entry level persons in my lifetime. I look up the GPA before that process. I don't ask the applicant because I already know. GPA's in and of themselves are not that important. WHat other things did you do while in school (internships, community service, volunteer work) tell me how interested you are in your life beyond the classroom and that you are more well rounded than the next person. Grades are inportant because they signal the person's interest in doing well in whatever they started. I would have to admit, however, that a person with a 4.0 GPA does make me wonder if they ever spend the time to experience something else other than the pursuit of perfection.

The thing about GPAs is that grading policies vary so widely that it's like comparing apples to watermelons. The comment about "I wonder why you struggled to get all As" ignores the fact that some colleges or college majors are tougher than others. Some of the liberal arts departments at my college required profs to maintain a B- average in their classes. So even if you aced every test and wrote AMAZING papers, unless you were one of the profs' favorites, the best you could hope for was a B+. We called it "grade deflation," and it made us type-As crazy!

I guess I am a super genius, I graduated (recently) with straight A's and a 4.0 GPA. All while juggling a fulltime job, a wife, four kids, and all manner of events and circumstances that occur in everyday life. I would say that while employers may or may not care about the GPA (to a degree), that anything worth doing is worth giving your all. If you try your best and do not achieve an A, then you can still be proud of the grade because you did your best. However, setting your sights low and deciding to "settle" for lower grades is a path which will set the trend for your career. If you take the easy way out during school, then how can you say that when you are employed you will step up to the plate, do the hard work, put in the hours, pay your dues, and so forth?

No, Mary, your generation is just ultra pragmatic. :-)

My only thought would be, allow for the idea that most everyone's personal goals evolve over time. Committing all your energies to a single goal makes for better odds you'll achieve it, but it's easy to miss the opportunity cost you incur for those resources, until it's too late…

I think that the truth of this depends on what you plan to do after you graduate. Where you attend school. And what type of student you are. I went to a private liberal arts college, and I made all A's because I knew I wanted to go to a good law school once I finished. And I wanted to be competitive. And I happen to really love school.

If you want to work at a big fortune 500 company grades matter. Even at really elite schools. If you just want a job, then maybe they don't matter so much. Also, the market is important (as in where you want to work). Furthermore, if you are on scholarship (like I was) getting good grades isn't really an option.

I challenge some of the prior comments, however, because I don't think that you necessarily have to chose between a social life and good grades. I did study a lot, but I also spent a lot of time doing social things (no I did not sleep, but who needs to sleep? I don't really sleep now!). I played in video game tournaments (I'm a girl, so it was a big deal), went to tons of parties, dated a lot, was a TA, and, for variety, I went to National Honors Conventions. I worked my way through school. And I loved it. By the way, I got into a great law school. And I have a job that pays well (not sure what the blogger meant by law having pay issues). I don't regret it one bit, and I think back on my time with fond memories.

If you approach college like it is four years to do everything you possibly can (I also traveled a lot in college; take study tours, because they are a great experience and you can travel for very cheap), and that you should fill every second of it finding what you love, what inspires you, and working really hard, maybe you won't get all As (I admit, I was the exception) but you will do well, and you will make wonderful memories.

@Mary: Please don't kill yourself. We need what few sane people your generation still brought forth.

I honestly can't say what my GPA was–I graduated 3 years ago from a public university business program. They were good enough to get me into the grad school of my choice.

Then again, I'm now in public service (by choice; I found out soon after graduating that corporate America wasn't where I wanted to be), so I guess the GPAs and salary numbers were never all that important to me. I'm currently in a job that is a stepping stone to where I want to go; I make enough to pay the bills and have some spending money, too, thaough I'm by no means highly paid; I feel like I'm playing a small but vital role in the place I live, rather than just making a buck; and I'm generally satisfied with my education and lifestyle.

Some of the most pathetic people I now know are the ones who did fairly well in college, partied like there was no tomorrow, and are now late twenties and early thirties bar flies who hate their fairly well-paying but soul crushing jobs and have no plans to grow up.

Yes, there's definitely more to life than grades, partying, or money.

It certainly sounds as your time in college was a huge waste. What mystifies me is that you were smart enough to get nearly straight As, and yet not smart enough to wake up midcourse and notice that you were learning nothing of value. You could have changed majors, changed schools, or otherwise taken actions short of tanking your GPA that might have allowed you to take something from those four years that stuck with you.

The whole work hard or live well dichotomy is bogus. If you are not engaged in some pursuit you value, your life has no meaning, and you will not be all that happy, even if you are earning decent jack. The trick is not to work or achieve less, but to work hard and achieve in line with your inner values and goals.

I'm currently in college at the age of 39 finally getting a degree in what makes me happy. I get to go to my favorite playground with all the best toys and the people who know how to get the most out of them. I feel for you on what you think were missed opportunities. It's no use crying over spilt milk.

The best lesson I have learned through being an employee, an employer and a student is that you should never bypass an opportunity to learn or grow and that a gpa is merely a number that shows your dedication to that pursuit.

I graduated with a 3.97 as an undergrad, and a 3.55 from graduate school, and despite the toll it took on my life, I do not regret missing some events, and fun times along the way. I learned alot about myself. I learned what I was capable of doing, and I learned how to learn – oftentimes under pressure!

I respect and admire the effort it takes for someone to devote the time and work to get good or great grades. The icing on the cake is when that someone does this while holding down a job and or raising/supporting a family. That's an individual I want on my team. Sure, learning about workplace politics is important, and experience is valuable, but so are personal discipline, dedication to a course of action/goal, and pride in quality output. These things cannot be taught vicariously, they are self taught.

I also think that this discussion also depends on the industry we are talking about. My PR consultant doesn't need to have the best grades, but my surgeon should:)

Just my 2 cents worth.

I agree GPA may not have been helpful to you in job interviews. But definitely it would have given you a sense of pride which will reflect in your attitude. And attitude is everything.

I worked 20 hours a week MAXIMUM in college on schoolwork (5-10 hours per week was more typical). I partied 2-4 times a week, made friends and connections, while double majoring and playing rugby. I graduated with a 3.6 cumulative GPA.

Granted, I could have tried harder and perhaps achieved better grades, but I have no idea what you would even do for 60-80 hours a week, let alone why you would need to put in so much time for good marks. Ever heard of declining marginal returns?

This IS an inspiring story, but keep in mind that it only applies to certain fields of study. I wouldn't take it as a solid formula for all prospective students. Nice job though ;)

Great post. Seems spot on from my experiences.

This is encouraging for me at least. I am just about to exit college (Yay for May) and have always focused on getting a 3.0+ GPA while making sure to spend time learning other things I really want to learn.

As such, I have gotten more job opportunities, made more connections, and have more expertise from the extra curricular work I did on my own than from what the GPA does. I have probably spent just as much time building my experience in areas as I have in school. I don't regret it at all (and my employers don't seem to either).

There have been very few situations where I have ever regretted not spending more time getting those A's. And arguably, for the subjects I know less about, I focus more on getting A's in (Eg: Business Law vs. Marketing).

Good, honest post!

no jon is wrong. i'm a highschool drop out and now run my own management business. but looking back, wish i would of finished school. u can always pick your business, but going back to school years later would be difficult and admit would be useless. a degree is something that no body can take away and a high grade average is even better:-) cheers to u jon

I'm not surprised that most of the people commenting here can't think in shades that aren't black and white. The gist of the original post is simple: manage your time to get a lot of good experience in before you graduate. Nowhere does it say that you should stop caring about grades; nowhere does it say that you should completely slack off; and nowhere does it say that grades are completely irrelevant.

If a recent grad with a 3.0 isn't a big enough hot shot to score a job with a big investment banking or consulting company it does NOT mean he/she is doomed for life. If the person works for a few years after graduation, proves themself to be great assets to a company, and a big Fortune 500 firm still won't look at them because of some classes they took place 10 years ago, then perhaps these companies will miss out on some of the best that is out there; but someone will notice and you'll be fine.

And by the way, for all the commenters who are pumping the investment banking and consulting industry as being the place where the hottest grads go to work… I can't help but look at the front page of the newspaper every day and think "so this is where the smartest and most talented grads in our country work? Sad."

I majored in Computer Science. Out of a life career, I've only had 1 employer (government) ask for GPA and transcripts.

I can tell that your initial impression makes a big difference in how you get treated throughout the interview process. I'd probably ask for GPA if I questioned someones presentation or experience.

However, since graduation, I've found that most interviews in my professional are followed up with technical interviews that are unrealistic with highly obscure technical questions. In fact, I'd match some of the 'technical' interviews against my final examinations from college.

Additionally, more people in CS are now asking for MS degrees… With tech interviews the way they are, programming may just as well be a certification with a ten month time limit.

If you were an engineer or business major or any other hard science then you DO need a good GPA. recruiters wouldn't even get a interview with out havening a top GPA, sure experience will trump but your not going to get it if you don't have the grades. Oh and you would need to remember what you learn.

@ Ben (one of the other Bens): My GPA is relatively low (3.0ish- I care to keep my GPA above 3.0, that's about it) and I'm a senior majoring in marketing (pretty generic major) and I have companies and businesses contacting me asking when I graduate and if I have a job yet. Most of my classmates are wondering what they're going to do when they get their diploma.

You don't need a high GPA – you need to go meet people who are working in the field you're interested in. I am interested in the web, so I started a website. Turned out people liked my website and my design and my writing, and I have met dozens of people who are interested in helping me get a job in quite a few fields (not all web-related) simply based on some of my writing and some of the things others have told them about me.

Smart people with good connections and good social skills will do better than smart people with good grades. I think Penelope says that a bunch on this website…

I got into grad school, and I certainly didn't make all A's. Not the best grad school ever, but it works for me. No one ever asks me for my GPA, and I've forgotten a lot of what I learned as well.

If you had slept more, you would have gotten those A's with a lot less effort. Your brain was fried.

If you had majored in math or engineering or chemistry, you would have learned job relevant
skills and you would not have forgotten 90 percent of it–or you would be unemployable.

It ought to be illegal to give degrees in drivel–such as english lit and "communications". Unless, from the getgo it is explained that that stuff is drivel. Imagine, a degree for studying …."stories", and "poems". That's getting a degree for aquiring…Culture, as distinct from something useful, like the
art of entering numbers into spreadsheets, or of
bossing people around.

On the other hand, some might argue that the reason for a university education is NOT job training or job skills, but getting an ….education. Job training ( except in the sciences and premed) is the mission of TRADE SCHOOLS, not universities. But, then they should explain that clearly before you spend a fortune
on it. You might not want an …education. You might prefer to learn….how to run commerical computer programs to graph stock prices. You might not want to read "theories" but learn to write tv commericals for such important things as hairspray and cheeze whiz.

I see no reason why one should spend a hundred thousand dollars to "study" the romance novels of Jane Austen, or the theatrical distractions of Shakespeare. Others might want to spend for it.
But, we all know…that in the workplace…learning to have a "network" and to hold one's liquor is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than, say,
the theories of Plato.

someoneposted
//I am getting ready to attend college after serving many years in the US Navy. I am currently working as an Environmental Scientist with no college education and receiving pay and benefits similar to my colleagues with degrees.//

Pay maybe, and title maybe, but if you don't understand the details of partial differential equations, thermodynamics, etc., you NOT an environmental SCIENTIST. You are not even close.

Scientists create new thought. You are working as a …..TECHNICIAN.

Caitlin,
Read my post again with attention to IRONY and SATIRE. Have you ever read J. Swift?
You completely missed my point.
Penny

p.s. The world is going to hell in a handbasket.

Just look at our president. He didn't get straight As. On second thought, better crack those books.

Ive never gotten straight A's

I can say I regret not having gotten straight As in college. If I had actually learned something there, I might have a job today.

So true so true.. What helps me a great deal now in running my small business were skills that I learned participating gazillion student organizations and jobs while skipping classes. Sure I had less than stellar grades (shh don't tell my parents), but I learned a lot about grass roots marketing and making small-budgets work. I wouldn't be able to learn that in the classrooms.

Cheers,
Cindy

One thing that great grades show is OBEDIENCE to authority, and conformity to the system, the party line and the rules.

These are good predictors for corporate success at all but the top level.

Of course, this refers to liberal arts, and business majors–not to science and math majors where the actual material is important to the job itself.
In math or chemistry or physics, if you forget
most of the material you studied in university,
you are unable to DO the job.

One measure of whether you have been cheated in university–of a real education–or are greatly underemployed ( even at high pay), is whether you use most of what you learned in your
job.

People who spend their time in University
networking, going to parties, drinking, doing sports etc, DO NOT BELONG IN UNIVERSITY–they are
immature fools wasting the time and resources of the scholars who are there to give them an education.

And the universities are corrupt–because they care more about tuition than standards–such people should be expelled.

By the way, one thing I like about "Junior Achievement" is that it was run by Business people
–and not by uni profs of business.

If uni profs of business were any good at it—Why are they TEACHING? Why are they not using their skills to get rich?

"Those who can do; Those who can't teach
Those who can't teach, teach teachers,
and those who can't do either
administrate the university.

Wow, I have to disagree 100%.

I graduated with a 2.95 out of 4.0 from a top Ivy League two years ago. I took challenging classes that I was really interested in despite a lower chance of getting an A (my school has a grade-quota policy in most classes).

Now I find myself constantly constantly getting my foot in the door, only to have it slammed shut due to my GPA.

Granted I'm pursuing a job in a very competitive field (financial research) but it's what I love and I don't plan on giving up anytime soon.

Frankly, I'm an excellent candidate. I'm passionate about it, I'm competent and learn quickly, I have solid two-years of work experience, I do quite a bit of self-study, I interview well and am personable, and I'm willing and eager to put in long hours. Yet 80% of the jobs I apply to have GPA caps: 3.2 or 3.5 out of 4.0. I've been told flat out by employers that they'd love to have me except for my academics (they act a little more satisfied when I tell them I got a 1510 on my SATs, but nothing ever comes from it.)

This advice may be good for careers that are slightly less competitive, but if you're going into finance as a young professional with very little nepotistic contacts, GPA can make or break you. I try not to regret my decisions in college, but after 300+ rejections from my dream career it's increasingly difficult not to wish I had spent a lot more of my time buried in a library rather than appeasing my intellectual curiousity.

I had that part figured out by the time I started high school. What took me longer to figure out is that it applies to the workplace too.

Don't bust your butt doing your job well if other people don't notice or care. ALWAYS ensure that the outcome of your hard work is measurable and that your bosses see it. If you face the choice between looking good and having to let something slide, do the former.

I'd like to disagree. I graduated in '05 with a business degree and feel that my low GPA was one of the main reasons why it took me so long to find a decent job after graduating. I had to move hundreds of miles away from home to get a temp job paying $10. Thankfully I'm making more now, but many students will read this article and use it as a license to be lazy; totally missing the fact that you recommend keeping a B average.

Getting into the training programs at fortune 100 companies requires a good GPA or your left coming in as a mail clerk trying to work you way up.

A 4.0 isn't required but a 3.6/3.7 is damn helpful.

wil I think what he is saying make a good point, I am 25 yrs old going to college and my I am a "c" student I really don't try for "A" because that way to hard on urself but I do want to get A's I just can't get there. but I do agree with him.

I think everyone has made some fair points, but I have to agree with Jon. I just recently graduated with a bachelor's degree in English literature and Irish studies (don't ask).

While I did not have the best grades, more like mediocre, I still attained a job right out of college because of my experience – I was News Editor at my college newspaper, held two internships, was a tour guide and started a retreat at my school. All of these experiences were not only a good resume builder, but gained me friends with similar interests and goals. And I have to admit, I spent my fair share of college partying – or rather more than fair share. The point is, I balanced all of it so I could have a well-rounded college experience. I regret nothing, which I think is a pretty great feat. I had gret friends inside and outside the clubs that I participated in, had great work experiences, and even learned a lot in school. Unlike Jon, I think I retained a lot of information from my college experience (of course, this could always change since I've only been out of school for less than a year). However, I am glad I majored in English because everyone needs an employee who can read and write!

I hope the readers of this blog look at this post for what it is trying to convey – that you can have it all – the grades, the friends, the parties – you just have to decide what you want to make a priority based on what you think will mean the most to you in the future.

Jon,

You've made my day. What you said was so true and I'm glad to know there are others out there that feel the same way. I feel like I've missed out on life. I can't really add anything here that hasn't already been said, but thank you for posting this blog.

-Heather

Thats funny, I recently got admitted to graduate school and my transcripts include 2-3 Ds, about 10 Cs, and mostly Bs. I'd say maybe I have about 10 As on my college transcripts.

Granted I intend to work a bit harder in my master's program so that when I apply to a doctorate program the programs will look at how hard I worked and excelled at the master's level but the master's program was more impressed with meeting me and discussing my goals and motivations and not so much with my grades.

In college, I got straight As, except for the occasional A-. I studied way too hard and it affected my social life. I do regret working so hard now. I am a freelance writer and recent blogger, who went on so many interviews, and not one of them asked about my grades. I think back now to how many times I could have gone barhopping or something else equally as irresponsible, but I didn't because of a test, paper, etc.

As a current college student, my main issue with this article is that it discounts the possibility of someone being both socially astute and academically inclined. I have a single B and a B+ on my record at a top 100 ranked school, and still go to 3 or 4 parites a week and have a social network of about 700 or so people. In addition, I was President of my residential area, and am in a fraternity. There are people out there who are capable of balancing both, and this should be encouraged. And, as elitist as it sounds, the idea of a majority of B's on my transcript is simply unacceptable.

if you found Walt Whitman..and know astrology is true and we didnt go to the Moon, and Federal Reserve runs this country ..then you learned something..

otherwise beer and chicks i think is best

Rather than retread what's already been said in this blog (communcation & English degrees are not useful to finding a job, GPA is important for highly competitive fields and so on) I'd rather focus on your hypothesis that spending more time making friends and working is more important than a very high GPA.

1. The friends you are most likely to connect with are the same graduating class as you. If you're 20 that means other 20 year olds, not hiring managers or even managers.

2. The difference between a 3.0 and 3.9 is 10%. The difference between a 3.9 and 2.0 is 20-30%. That effort doesn't necessarily translate into a part-time job. It's entirely possible you could become a C- or D+ student on a part-time job and definitely on a full-time job. In fact, many drop out because of work: work has a nasty habit of needing you to pull extra shifts or work overtime when it's exam time.

Granted you can find exceptions to both of these. But in general going to college to "make friends and work part time" makes as little sense as overworking yourself for a high GPA, if not much less sense.

You've been told the great lie. The great lie is: go to college to get a a good job. The main reason to go to college is you absolutely love what you're studying, and are willing to go homeless and keep warm over a fire barrel if necessary for the rest of your life just to have your one shot at learning what you love. This goes for engineers as well as Arts majors, because if you don't love what you do you won't last four years.

There are exceptions to this: the long-term planner who has his eye on a 100k-200k salary and can study four years in something he absolutely hates for example, but for the vast majority of people you need to love what you're studying to have any chance of success at it. People who love what they do address several of your symptoms: they do not forget most of what they learn because they love it and commit it to long term memory, not just a grade, and they don't particularly care if a job doesn't slam them in the face after graduation.

I did have someone ask my GPA while I was working as an investment analyst at a top commercial real estate firm. After working at the company for about two years, I applied to be a volunteer English tutor in rural Russia. It was a knee-jerk reaction to the stress of working in finance, I acknowledge. My GPA was only 3.0 from a top school. I divulged my GPA to the Russian program coordinator and he blabbed the number to my boss as he was a reference (also, not a good decision on my part.) After that, I was humiliated and embarrassed especially since I got the job not having to report my GPA.

Looking back, eight years later, I look at this as a cautionary tale to control who in your life talks to whom. Don't use your boss as a reference while you still work at the company.

Also, why should getting good grades, making friends, and having a good time be mutually exclusive?

Perhaps, this is a matter of self selection those will high GPA's seek out jobs that require/value a high GPA and those with low GPA's focus on jobs that do not value GPA as much.

Those in the consulting, investment banking, and finance industries usually only recruit the top 10% of the class.

Many federal agencies (Department of State, FBI..etc) highly value high GPA's.

This is a great article and I refer back to it often. My sister-in laws kids are now off to college and I'm going to send this article there way. I made a 3.8 as an undergrad and I think thats good enough. I think work is good but you need to relax and enjoy yourself also.

I have around a 3.4 Cumulative GPA.

I've been in College for 4 years and have only gone to three different "College parties." It isn't what I wanted to do and has never been a big interest of mine. I've also worked five different jobs while attending College and this has been one reason why my GPA isn't above a 3.5(Not that it really matters that much, honestly).

If you are seriously studying 60-80 per week in a subject that you don't even enjoy just for the sake of getting high grades(With no intention of Graduate school) then this is just plain stupid.

If graduate schools didn't care about my GPA then I probably wouldn't have above a 3.0- A lot of times the GPA doesn't even correlate to what I have learned in the course; but more so towards how I can slave towards what a certain Professor is looking for.

I will say that I could probably still get into graduate school with a little lower GPA and obsessing over marks on a paper is no way to life your live. I'm an Economics major by the way.

I bet this guy is white.

White people ask me all the time about my
GPA.

Hi Jon,
I'm a college student who is a little confused by your post (though it is very interesting!)

Regarding other objections, it's not enough to say that getting A's in school is possible 'despite' having a wholesome lifestyle. Actually, I believe that doing your best in school is necessary if you want to have a truly wholesome/fulfilling life.

What I mean is that if you spend your time wisely, if you are inquisitive, if you explore ideas thoroughly (all characteristics of someone who lives a wholesome lifestyle), then you should be able to get great grades.

Of course: making good relationships, enjoying yourself.. those are also characteristics of someone who leads a wholesome lifestyle, but why should that second batch of characteristics be somewhat mutually exclusive from the first?

Good grades are important. People are screened by their grades. You cannot get an interview at some places without a minimum of a 3.0 GPA. Depending on your school and major even that feat is not easy.

Without at least a 3.0 GPA it is difficult to get internships that give you that valuable work experience and connections within the professional world. This is especially important when you don't have connections of your own and rely on someone else to hire you.

A low GPA can cost a person thousands of dollars due to the effort required to build their value in the eyes of others and the lost opportunities due to screening.

I feel the issue with your story is time management and work-life balance. It's a problem that most people don't want to address because of the Puritan work ethic that is so ingrained in our society. Any indication that a person wants to enjoy life is seen as laziness because our society is so competitive.

Being a lawyer is not easy. Most don't make a lot of money. It's hard to find jobs. However, the profession can be good if you can pursue your passion in a supportive environment. It's just like any other job in that regard. The law is not truly for people looking to make a lot of money but there are some "successful" attorneys like that.

Lastly, I agree with learning for the sake of learning. I did that throughout college and law school. I didn't have the pre-college background to coast through college or law school on raw talent. I had to work hard for my mostly C's and B's with the occasional A's when I got to study what interested me. I studied what I wanted and it hurt my GPA. I still get screened out of some jobs to this day. I value my experience from those days but I still wish those grades were better.

Connections help but you cannot exploit them without the proper credentials and sometimes that credential is a high GPA. There are no easy roads. But you're right, GPA is only one small part of the equation.

I had brilliant results in high school, great enough results in college and then went on to a degree. When I came out to work, I wondered why I ever bothered to study in the first place because it did nothing to help with my career. And the reason was, for all the studying, I had no idea what I wanted to work as, even when I was looking for my first job. In my opinion, good grades without a goal sucks. Teachers should make more effort to help students find their career path. My parents weren't much help because of money, they had to take whatever job opportunities that came their way. For them, as long as you work for a good company, with good salary, that would do, but for me, I wanted job satisfaction and had no idea what I wanted to do.