Stop B*tching.

Penelope

Let me preface this by saying that I am a secular Russian-born Jew who is now an American citizen who neither has interest in Jewish holidays or Christian holidays, or any holidays that have anything to do with religion. I like having the Christmas holiday and I consider it something American rather than religious. I think in fact it should be renamed to what it really is "Buy me random sh*t, that I will be returning next week for something I really want, at same time keeping the US economy afloat day" (I suggested this to a couple of marketing folks at my company and they inexplicably shot it down) rather than having it named after you know… Christ.

Frankly I think you just like to complain, like most Jewish women that I have come across. This is a personal observation rather than a prejudice so please keep your pant suit on because my mother is a Jewish woman and as a good boychik I love her very much.

I do think that office decorations if present need to be kept modern secular that can include santa, who has his american roots in the coca cola company rather than anything religious. Definitely no nativity scenes, no menorahs, and no kwanza doohikies.

Enjoy your days off Penelope, because when in Rome… you know the rest.

This was downright mean.

Bah humbug!

Didn't you write the exact same blog post this time last year?

I don't know what it's like in America, but in Australia and the UK we don't have Thanksgiving. So for us, Christmas serves two purposes. It's a religious festival for Christians, and it's a secular Thanksgiving-style holiday for everyone else. I'm sure to some extent that's true in America as well, although I can believe that it's less so since the US is a country that is ultra-sensitive about matters of religion.

I know Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and atheists who celebrate Christmas as a cultural festival with their families. Maybe your family doesn't but you don't have the right to say that you speak for all minorities or even all Jews.

I also don't really see why the majority should be without its cultural traditions and, yes, even religious holidays. The simple fact that Christmas is not observed by everyone does not make it offensive by nature. Personally I would welcome it if we had observed other religious holidays in the workplace as well.

Hey hey you make some good, and moderately flame-inducing points.

You are pretty much right about the Christianity of Christmas. And I'm not even sure about which parts of Christianity feel that their holiday is for them. For example, I grew up in a REALLY Roman Catholic country overseas and to them Xmas really is something special, AND it's the most consumer oriented holiday in the history of man. It's both.

#3 point – Xmas somehow IS about good cheer. Somehow. Through all the the shopping, extravagant light displays (or house bling) , and discussions about it's place in society etc…it's still about shutting up and buying someone a present and spending time with family and friends cause that's what happens.

What I would agree with is that most others who are not Xtians DON'T relate to the holiday as theirs, but they do appreciate the time off. Also, they probably don't complain about not having their own religious days represented in a Govt. holiday. You live in a Xtian nation, they will choose who's holidays you have.

Happy everything!

Oh and by the way, I am not a Christian. I am an agnostic, my mother is a Buddhist, and my father a lapsed Catholic / atheist.

So this statement is just plain wrong:
"The only people who think Christmas is not religious are the Christians. Everyone else thinks, 'This is not my holiday.' In fact, only a Christian would feel enough authority over the holiday to declare that it is not Christian."

PS I definitely agree with Guy above who says yes to Santa in the workplace and no to nativity scenes.

Just out of curiosity, don't you get public holidays for Easter as well? How do you feel about that? It's a more deeply religious holiday for Christians and less of a cultural holiday (despite arguments about its roots as a pagan fertility festival).

Speaking as someone who has never had religion, I'm not even going to bother enumerating the many ways you are wrong. There's so very little left of proper Christianity left in Christmas, transmuting as it has into a secular orgy of consumerism.

I think, Penelope, that you're just trying to be the John C. Dvorak of career advice columnists. Which is okay. I also think, having read you for most of 2007, that you have a pretty hearty disposition toward grumpiness. Grumpy makes for good blogging, so I don't begrudge you that. But try to give us grumpy for grumpy's sake. The whole axing Christmas will make you more profitable line is more of a stretch than plausability allows.

1) I am a Christian of a Southernish Baptisty persuasion.

2) I totally agree, especially with the floating holidays suggestion.

3) The "Christmas Season" (period of commercial religious exploitation) now begins Nov. 1st as soon as Halloween is over. I can sympathize with how miserable and uncomfortable this makes people who don't celebrate Christmas. I say sympathize because I feel that it co-opts a sacred occasion for financial gain and dilutes the message of the holiday. Thus I am not happy to see a thousand "Christmas" items on display or celebration of my holy day forced upon others.

4) You'd never see Saint Days labeled on a public school mandated calendar in Alabama. That's papist. (^_~)

5) Caitlin, Easter is always scheduled on a Sunday for symbolic reasons. The Friday preceding it is also a holiday, but is rarely given as a day off unless it overlaps with the Spring Break of the Public Schools.

Should there be any days that most offices close? How about New Year's Day? Thanksgiving?

* * * * * *

Those are fine. Great. They are non-religious. The point here is that we should endorse particular religions by giving days off for them at work.

–Penelope

You know what? I had this whole long speach type comment that I was going to post chastising you for being intolerant of someone elses religion and just plain whiny. With a brief lesson on the Constitution. But you aren't worth the key strokes. You simply aren't. I challenge you on one thing though: Please post the part of the Constitution that says that church and state must be seperate. Because it sure as hell isn't the First Ammendment, lady.

Whereas the first amendment doesn't expressly spell out that there must be a "separation" of church and state, the separation of church and state were spoken of often by many of the founding fathers. It was decided very early on in this country's history that you couldn't have freedom OF religion without having a certain amount of freedom FROM religion. Separation of church and state is a very long standing legal precedent that is a very important part of our country's history. However, if you'd like to live in a country that doesn't separate religion from government, I'm sure they'd love to have you in Iran.

I completely and utterly agree. In college I was penalized for taking off Yom Kippur. A professor who'd never heard of the holiday and never left the state of Oklahoma in his life decided to give an exam with "no make ups, no exceptions" on Yom Kippur.

I don't need Christmas off. I need employers and teachers to be reasonable about my need to take the High Holidays off. I completely agree with your idea of floating holidays: plenty of people need Christmas off, whether they're buying into commercialism or they're actually getting their butts to church. But I need my day off about four months earlier.

" 1. 'Christmas is not a religious holiday.'
The only people who think Christmas is not religious are the Christians.
I was not aware that the jolly fat guy was found anywhere in the bible. Don't remember anything about fir trees either.

"2. 'Stop complaining! You get an extra day off from work.'
I don’t want a day off on Christmas. It’s a great day to work"

So go in and work. Just because you don't like the holiday doesn't mean you have to screw it up for those who do.

"3. “Christmas is about good cheer. Focus on that and lose your bad attitude.”
I know I have a bad attitude. But consider that the fact that good cheer is mandated in December is also a Christian trope"

It's also a Pagan Yule, Jewish Chaunuka, Bahamian Junkanoo, Hatian Ganga Bois, and Buddhist Bodhi Day philosophy as well.

"4. ”You can also take a day off for Hanukkah.”
First of all , Hanukkah is eight days. Second of all, the holiday isn’t a big deal to us, except that it’s a way for Jewish kids to not feel outgunned in the gift category"

First, Christamas is 12 days. You get one day off…quit your bitching. Second, the holiday is as big a deal as you make it. When you have kids, it's a very big deal…when you don't, it is or it isn't, depending on how much you like the holiday.

"5. 'We get Christmas off at work because this is a Christian country.'
People actually say this to me. Every year. I’m not kidding. People tell me that I should move to Israel if I don’t want to celebrate Christmas. Really."

We get Christmas off because it was declared a federal holiday in 1870 along with the 4th of July because, according to Senator Hannibal Hamlin who introduced the bill, "There are no legal holidays here, and this bill merely provides for what I think are the legal holidays in every state of the Union."

If people don't like that you don't care to celebrate it, go tell them to pee up a rope. Just because 95% of Americans do celebrate it in some form or another, doesn't mean you have to.

Thanksgiving is a holiday that is much more important in some cultures than in others. Should everyone be "forced" to take it off? How would it be if, in workplaces that currently close on Thanksgiving, policy changed and it suddenly got more difficult (or impossible) for workers without seniority to take Thanksgiving off?

In another vein, if I lived in Israel the coin would be reversed in regards to the workplace endorsing particular religious holidays. Would that also be wrong in your view?

I wholeheartedly echo the Mariah Carey comment! It was not even December and I was sick of that whiny rendition.

Christmas has strayed so far from its roots its hard to argue, its been hijacked by retail companies as a vehicle to drive revenues. Frankly so has Thanksgiving strayed, I'm sure the Pilgrims would be appalled by its current form.

My advice PT is to make lemonade. Its never going to change, so make the best of it – create a Trunk family holiday or tradition, I know many Jews who that do that. Its annoying but basically harmless, no one is trying to convert non-Christians to Christianity – your kids are not in any danger making a calendar. Relax, have a cup of cheer!

You know what annoys me? When people blame all Christians for everything any other Christian ever did, said or wore to the prom. Seriously.

Don't look now PT but your prejudice is showing.

Ho, Ho, Ho My Dearest Penelope,

Yeh I hear what you are saying, but sometimes you really have to know when and what battles are worth picking. My almost 20 years in fortune 100 corporate America, Christmas parties were and are some of my fondest memories. It always struck me funny/sad as to how cheap and lack of good taste some bosses could have. Will it be a ham (to add salt to your already exsposed holiday scars, or a turkey and a cheap bottle of wine?)for the winning employee of the year.

As a single corporate guy, there was no better time of the year, if you couldn't score at a company Christmas party there was no hope for the living. Whether you are Christian, Jew, or even a not, call it the end of the year bash. Most companies use a calendar year, if not then it's the middle of the year bash.

I say just go with the flow and use the time to get ahead of your co-workers when it comes to cleaning up your station and be ready when the gates open for the new year.

All the best dear, Blake

This post has shaken me a bit simply because it is contrary to my expectation of your work. In short, you are saying we should not have state sanctioned religious holidays in the USA because of the separation of church and state and the idea of supporting one faith's celebrations limits opportunity for others. Your argument is a classic straw man.

Many commenters have dealt with the holes in your arguments but what bothers me most is not the logic of the argument but your willingness to discount history. In reality, until the Slavic Jew migrations to the USA, the country was overwhelming Christian. In the past century, the USA has welcomed people of all faiths. I wish the same could be said of the rest of the world.

Your arguments are not with Christmas and you seem to be to caught up in your dislike for American culture more than having an issue with religion. If you work for an organization that will not allow you to have your religious holidays, it is an issue with the organization.

@ Jason:
"In reality, until the Slavic Jew migrations to the USA, the country was overwhelming Christian."

Take THAT, Native Americans!

I work in a company run by Israelis and we have Christmas eve and Christmas day off. The Jewish High Holy Days are *not* company wide holidays.

Odd, I think. I too espouse the value of "floating holidays" given for religious reasons–say 4-5 per year.

That way, if you want to work on Christmas, and save your day off for your trip next year to Timbuktu, you can. I had years where I had no family and it would have been nice to go into work with others rather than being alone on that day which is so loaded with history and tradition that it almost collapses on itself with the weight.

All that said, it's important to remember that Xmas off was a big deal when everyone worked in factories for long hours and no wages. A paid Christmas off was one of the key issues labor unions fought for—and that's how our legacy started.

Merry Christmas! Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to join my office Christmas caroling group. We're going to serenade Human Resources

Arlene said: I’ve long had a theory: Workplace Christmas enforcement is, among other things, a Darwinian device to thin the working mom population, because if you can dump a couple of hundred hours of shopping, baking, decorating, entertaining, and cleaning into an already overpacked schedule and survive to see the new year, evidently you deserve to live. Now there’s something to celebrate!

LOL! Good point. I am not a working Mom but as the owner of a small business with many obligations, I have cut out the baking, decorating, and shopping. Years ago everyone in my family came to a truce–no gift giving. I send the money I would have spent on giving presents to people who already have everything to a community food bank and charity.

Given in the Northern Hemisphere Christmas falls in the middle of the dark, cold and wet winter i think it's a good time of year to hunker down, not have to go into the office and to eat a lot of carbohydrates.

Also, the twinkling lights cheer up the dark evenings.

Interesting blog post – i'm enjoying the varying views in the comments.

Well, BC just got removed from my RSS.

As the son of a liberal baptist minster and Irish Catholic mother, I can agree that the Christmas holiday is riddled with religious overtones that can be offensive to those who don't follow that faith. Also being a former aethist and still being non-dogmatic about my particular faith, I don't like the constant barage of Christmas. I do, however, like spending time with my family, and basically taking a "forced" day off gives a lot of people I know the chance to do that.

"So look, we don’t want a day off for Hanukkah. Or any other Jewish holiday. We want floating holidays that everyone uses, for whatever they want. It doesn’t have to be religious, or it can be. But we don’t need our work telling us when to take time off. It’s insulting and totally impractical."

You want holidays everyone can use…therefore those of us who do celebrate Christmas, we should what-not do so, so as not to offend you?

Give me a break! Stop complaining about it. As far as Christmas promoting diversity…first of all, if you want to complain about being in the minority because you don't celebrate it, think about this: Those of us that do cannot even call Christmas the name it was originally called. We have to use the term "Holiday" so maybe we should say we are being opressed because true Christians who want to celebrate it are being forced not to call it what we want to.

I don't understand how you can say that you want one type of thing so you should get it and stop those of us who do celebrate the day not to. Isn't that doing the same thing you accuse us of doing?

Oh and by the way…if someone who was Jewish told me "Happy Hanukah" I would not be offended. So why is it offensive to say Christmas? The reason "I don't celebrate it" doesn't make sense.

Just remember the *real* meaning of Christmas – it's a winter festival that the christians co-opted for their own purposes. When I lived in Australia I couldn't have cared less about it, but now I live in Europe I love the lights and the celebrating – really brightens up those dull winter days. So cheer up and mull some wine for goondess sakes woman!

But what about this post from Ms Rosen's past:

"Yom Kippur provides a welcome break from work."
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2001/09/30/yom-kippur-provides-a-welcome-break-from-work/

"After that, I usually took a day off with all the other Jews. I came to enjoy the Yom Kippur chatter in the office among Jews because during the rest of the year, Jews are mostly secular and so is the chatter. Yom Kippur would be more convenient if it fell on Christmas (everything’s closed, Jews have nothing to do — a great day to fast!) but I realized that the Yom Kippur interruption of work would not derail my career, it would only derail my weekly schedule."

Perhaps you could allow Christmas to simply derail your day, week, month, life. The choice is yours, America.

Penelope:

I have a lot of respect for you, but not this blog post.

Suck it up, just like I have to do when I worked for an Orthodox Jew who made me follow his customs and even had the "Holiday" lunch at a nasty kosher cafe.

If you had not notice many, many more people celebrate Christmas more than any other religion. Last I checked in politics and the workplace, the majority rules.

Stop bi*ching and it will be January in no time!

I think it is a great idea to have just a bunch of floating holidays so employees can pick and choose. However, unfortunately, not every company is able to operate in such a fashion. If someone is employed at the latter I certainly encourage them to have a discussion with their HR rep about some sort of accommodation. As an HR Manager I will work my butt off to get someone a holiday swapped out with another day if that is what they want. I've done that a couple of times with individuals who wanted to have MLK day off rather than the day after Thanksgiving. Here's the thing though – I don't know unless you as an employee tell me!! :)

As a Christian I do not insist upon anything but to live and believe in my own, personal beliefs. I do not insist that you, as a Jewish person, "be happy" as you say in your post and/or celebrate Hanukkah or anything else for that matter. I don't insist upon parties at work, decorations (anywhere – especially not in my house!) or talk of santa and his reindeer. I hate the disruptions – the inability to run to the mall to buy socks on the 23rd of December without being prepared to wait 4 hours in traffic. I hate that something so sacred to me and my family is "coupled" with retail silliness and a fat dude in a red suit. To me, presents and a tree are an American holiday. But Christmas, the real Christmas, to me that is very, very different.

Just as I'm sure you hope Christians do not lump all Jews together I ask that you do not lump all Christians together.

Interesting discussion. Floating holidays could be a good idea. But, I do wonder how the situation would play out at a company where the vast majority of employees want/expect the 25th of December off. Would it really be more cost effective to keep the office "officially" open with just a skeleton crew? If a business tells customers it's going to be open for the holiday, it would need to have a fairly complete staff to adequately respond to customer needs, otherwise it would be counterproductive to be open. So, would that mean allowing only a few employees the day off so that a complete staff would be present? In many companies that would cause far more frustration and inconvenience than it would relieve.

Penelope anytime you want to move to Israel let us know. If you just want to visit too :-) We would welcome you with open arms.

Of course that pesky Bethlehem town and Nazareth sort of put a seasonal damper on things and we have all those darn pilgrims romping around Jerusalem trying to remind us that Christians actually should own the place ("go Crusaders!").

Seriously though, good for you for speaking up and speaking your mind as usual.

The point of vacation time to me when I was a manager was to ensure my workers or me came back refreshed and ready to work again when they needed the time.

When are employers going to realize that a content employee is a productive one even if they take holiday time according to their needs?

"The only people who think Christmas is not religious are the Christians. Everyone else thinks, “This is not my holiday.” In fact, only a Christian would feel enough authority over the holiday to declare that it is not Christian."

This is so ridonkulously false, I'm flabbergasted by the false-itude. Perhaps I'm on an island, and this is admittedly anecdotal, but I can name armies of agnostics who GLADLY celebrate Christmas. Not, mind you, in celebration of the birth of Christ, but really as the American Socially Designated Time to Be Nice to One Another (ASDTBNOA).

Further, I have no idea how you conclude that your desire to work on Christmas yields a lack of acceptance for diverse backgrounds. If HR shuts down your work-on-Christmas request, you're on to something. Until then…:::confused:::

You ask: Why do I have to take a personal day for Yom Kippur but no one has to take a personal day for Christmas?
I answer: Three reasons. Most companies are too small to not offer a standard day off for Christmas, or they're large and simply behind the times. The second reason is that 90% of the American workforce celebrates Christmas, and therefore expects the day off; that's too large of a segment of the workforce for a recruiting department to ignore. Third, Yom Kippur celebrators are in the 10%.

You have a bad attitude.

Work doesn't tell you when to take a day off. The free market for holidays tells you that, of which you are one voter and not it's authority. You don't have to celebrate Christmas, and no one should stop you from working on Christmas. I'm not going to suggest do what the Romans do; I will suggest though, that when in Rome, at least quit your bitching about what the Romans do.

Point 5…I gotta say I'm with you.

Unfortunately, it is people like you who end up messing it up for people that celebrate the true meaning of Christmas. Santa Clause and the tree and gifts are all pagan in there background. Christmas was to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. He will be the one you stand before when you die. It does not matter if you believe in him or not. The fact of the matter is you will be standing before himon judgement day.
I just hope when that happens you remember this and then you can be as wishy washy as you want about Christmas.

I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian so I celebrate Christmas on the 7th January (according to the calender used by most of the world today, known as the Gregorian calendar), which is the 25th December according to the Julian Calender (it's about 2 weeks out due to a disagreement regarding leap years). Hopefully that makes sense, if not Google it.

So I have to explain the whole church-calender history every time people ask why I'm taking that day off.

Once everyone's finished their Christmas I still have another 2 weeks to wait. Although, we tend to just celebrate Christmas twice, as it's the meaning that's most important rather than the day itself.

As for the anti-holiday flare, couldn't you have posted this in, I don't know, let's say July or something Penelope. It just comes across as mean spirited.

I don't sit a bunch of little kids down around Christmas time and tell them that Santa doesn't exist. It's just not nice. Timing separates the thoughtful from the thoughtless…

Thanks for writing this post. While I can't say that I mind the day off, the truth is celebrating Christmas in the workplace has always been awkward for me, who does not celebrate. I have either faced discomfort and disbelief from coworkers for joining in on meaningless traditions like "Secret Santa" or been chastised for not getting celebrating and joining in on the spirit. These people always overlook the fact that don't join in on my religious holidays.

Christmas has become a north american tradition. I have friends who are muslim and they buy each other xmas gifts.I have friends who live in the United Arab Emerates who "pretend fast" during Ramadan out of respect of the culture of that country. I think we worry too much about being politically correct. If we think about xmas traditions that we have here a lot of them are "not" christmas symbols: christmas trees, mistletoe, wreaths, wassal bowls, yuletide…originate from pagan traditions. Santa Claus is the amalgamation of St.Nicholas/Jack Frost/Old Man Winter/Father Christmas/Odin (he had a flying chariot with an 8-legged horse… sound familiar?). I think that christmas is more than a christian holiday but a wealth of european traditions that have survived until modern times.

Yes, yes, yes, Penelope!
Completely agree. Thank you.

You said in a post a couple weeks' back that a quick personality test pegged you as an "Energizer."

Let's look at your last few posts: My marriage is a train wreck, peak oil will kill us all, and Christians are shoving Christmas down our throats.

I feel more energized already!

I was raised Catholic but I'm half-Jewish, and I'm now an atheist. Christmas? I'll see you at the movies, Penelope!

I'm not Christian. I don't feel at all alienated by Christmas. Christmas is something different than a religious holiday nowadays, IMHO. Christmas is what you make of it. You complain about people forcing Christmas on you, while you are busy trying to force your preferences and perspective on others to make them comply with the day the way *you* want it to be. Live and let live. If you don't like it, turn down the party invitations, shut your mouth, smile politely and go work instead.

Penelope –

One of the reasons I subscribe is because I often don't like or agree with what you say. I subscribe because you cause me to think and consider more about what you write.

As a Jew turned Christian, and pastor, (yes, my parents were not thrilled), I agree in part with you. Sadly, Christmas is no longer a Christian time to celebrate the birth of Jesus (no matter when He was really born). It has become a holiday which has crossed all types of boundaries. It is a religious holiday that has become secularized. Shame on the Christians for allowing that to happen.

Maybe part of the issue is all about control. Who controls the workplace, who controls our time, who ultimately controls me.

Last night my boys looked at the calendar and I explained Kwanza and Chanukah. Anyway, have a good day, simply put,

have joy, no matter what the season. Because joy comes from within.

* * * * * * *

Hi, Michale. Thanks for the thoughtful comment. I like what you say about control. I think there is someting to that — because you're right that this isn't about joy becuase it comes from within. So what else could it be about? Hm. Interesting.

Penelope

Come on Penelope, Christmas has been celebrated for thousands of years. The people who do not like christmas can call it Xmas. Enjoy your gifts,
suggest gift cards, enjoy your day off, hopefully it is paid, and move on with your life. Work retail if you really want to work that day, I think K-mart is open for 8 hours. Do not screw this holiday up for the rest of us. Political correctness can only go so far.

Lots of informed and interesting comments on here. However, saying because the Supreme Court legislated Christmas as a non-religious holidy so it is no longer a religious holiday is ridiculous.

I guess at that moment, the Vatican and all the leaders of other christian movements took Christ out of the bible and stopped the practices of Christmas, Easter, Holy Water, Ash Wednesday and all other ceremonial aspects of the holiday, even though the basis for Christianity was to get all the benefits of Judaism getting rid of all the ritual and ceremonial parts of Judaism (mostly getting rid of circumcision, keeping kosher and having to pray 3 times daily and keeping Sabbath).

Oh. Wait. That did not happen. I guess it is a religious holiday afterall, despite what the Supreme Court said. Oh yeah. News Flash. What the Supreme Court ruled wayyyyy back then is not binding on THE REST OF THE WORLD, not that you are Americancentric in your views or anything. Come on you Christmas celebrators. You won't mind doing all the Ramadan fasts or the Yom Kippur fasts or eating kosher for other people? Aren't you diverse? How does the logic of majority rules overiding respect for the diversity work?

Yes, diversity is great for the workplace. However, diversity (ie, being different) is also a major cause of derision. Think, say, why do we have wars and race wars?

Perhaps you should listen to mms://stream.simpletoremember.com/simpletoremember/misc/Real-Story-of-X-mas-and-New-Years.mp3

Learn your roots before you start lambasting others as

This post makes me want to puke. Get over it. We aren't a "Christian country" but we are a country made up with a Christian majority. For you to suggest that the most important holiday for most Christians (and thus most of the nation) should not be celebrated and we should shackle the Christmas holiday is ludicrous.

Add in that the only reason this post is half "career-related" is because you sprinkle in that you want your "floating holidays" and this post shines as nothing other than your "Declaration of Victimhood." Sick.

Penelope, I hope this article was harshly written to evoke responses, otherwise it seems your heart is truly bitter and angry about this subject.
From a business perspective, I agree that personal days should be available to all to use as they see fit for holidays such as Christmas, Yom Kippur, or whatever. This is a simple and fair solution and I'm surprised that more companies don't use it. Perhaps this will change over time.
As for myself, I am a Christian and I celebrate Christmas because it represents Jesus' birth, whether it is a holiday of my employer or not.
It is a time spent with family and friends to celebrate the hope that we believe Jesus brings. Is it too commercialized? Yes, sad to say, it has certainly become a vehicle for spending money that it was never intended to become.
However, I wish you and all your readers a Merry Christmas for the hope in this life and the next that I believe it represents.

Everyone's negative comments are just ridiculous. If you grow up in a non Christian household then you do not celebrate Christmas. There are no decorations or santa's or lights in your house and you sit on you butt with nothing to do except watching nasty christmas specials day of, that you can't relate to whatsoever because everything is closed.

who wants to know what jews really do on christmas day? anyone?

we go to the damn movies with the entire family, including babuchka, because its the only place thats frickin open. hannukah is also not a big holiday. just because it happens to fall in december doesn't mean its equal to christmas is for catholics.

I don't know any jewish people who celebrate christmas, personally i don't like christmas so much because i cannot relate to it at all. its not my culture, not my upbringing. i know of it and a lot about it but i do not enjoy it at all.

if your jewish and you celebrate christmas then your a schmeckle and not a very good jew. and i'm a freaking conservative jew! yuck christmas. give everyone their own option. Did kwanza even exist in the 80's??? I mean come on. Ask any non american jews if they celebrate christmas or enjoy it for any other aspect other than the fact that it brings people together and you can guess their answer, who cares.

this blog was poignant and has impact for those who understand. if your not part of any minority then how can you read this and possibly ever hope to understand what any of it means?

Surely Christmas is a public holiday in the US (and Australia, Canada, NZ, UK etc) because these are *Christian* countries?

Penelope –

You see, one of the great things about your blog is you evoke so many emotions. But what are we really complaining about? For me, and maybe it's just my own need, it's about control. Each of us needs to take control or to relinquish control in order to find our comfort zones and have effective boundaries.

It's the issue that messes up my work, as a pastor, there are days I'd rather clean toilets because of dealing with other peoples control issues and lack of boundaries. It's that way in our marriages (there you go, I offer free marriage counseling).

It comes back to what we do with any holiday, religious or not. As a Jew growing up, we got together as a family and hung out, or we went to the movies.

It's interesting that growing up, we had off for Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur, it was very Jewish community. Then living in Dearborn, Mi we had off for Ramadan. So, I have experienced having all these days off, and I have had to learn how to be sensitive to other cultures and religions. If only we could be tolerant / respectful of one another's beliefs. . . but then again, it's a control issue.

Okay, I'm done ranting for now.

Thanks

I have also lived in Dearborn, Mi and have experienced all 3 worlds,

In the words of Wendy Williams, miss a day miss a whole f-in lot! I am trying to trudge my way through these comments. I am galled that people refuse to acknowledge that no matter how bastardized and commercialized, Christmas is indeed a religious holiday. And enforcing it on others is problematic. The ostensible "war" on Christmas so touted on morning radio is just proof of how untouchable Christmas is.

That said, I grew up Catholic and for most of my life, I have enjoyed celebrating both the religious and secular aspects of the holiday. Christmas also happens to be my birthday so I understand how one's identity–religious or otherwise–gets lost in the fray. With the exception of my mother and boyfriend, no one ever gets me a birthday card or wraps my ONE present in birthday paper (poor me). In all seriousness, though, in this day and age, Christmas should be no more sacred in the workplace than Yom Kippur or Eid or other religious holidays. My workplace offers a floating holiday but still closes for Christmas (and Christmas Eve; no days off for Easter, although we close early on Good Friday and we are never closed for Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashannah or Eid).

Funny but the ever-increasing need for retail to meet the bottom line means that Thanksgiving and Christmas are becoming less sacred in many workplaces. Look at how many stores in the US are now opening on those days now, something I didn't see just a few years ago.

Back to reading the comments.

I really have better things to give a shit about then other people celebrating the most popular holiday in the United States at my office.

Cry more.

If it's tolerance and diversity everyone wants, where is the tolerance for Christians? You don't want me belittling your beliefs, but it's open season on mine (unless my belief happens to be condemning of white Christian males).

'During' Ramadan. My bad. I'm sure someone will catch that and lambast me for it.

I think it is horrible that people say that because of Christians we have certain days off that we don't want or office parties. Really? Office parties? Do you really think we sit at church and discuss our Christmas Office parties and have discussions about it in Sunday school? I think the majority of Americans have identified this time of year as a chance to unwind and enjoy each other's company. Did you ever consider the media streams have been flooding the gates and virtually destroyed the image of what is a humble day of observance for Christians?

As far as the days off well why not complain about having Saturdays and Sundays off too?? Why not make us all work 7 days a week so the people who don't want the days off to observe the Sabbath won't feel forced too. I am sure my comment won't be read but I think everyone needs to show a little more compassion and respect for one another. I think no matter what your religious beliefs are or if you don't have any I think we can all agree on showing more respect and love for one another. Thanks for the post!

i wasn't going to write this, seeing as most people who write something like this clearly have their minds closed off to other opinions, but here we go.

as a research analyst, i would like to point out your faulty reasoning. the reports you cite do not say that christmas is anti-diversity. my company celebrates every damn holiday out there (i think that's why the women in the business office are always on diets – they are always cooking something for some party or other).

my company gives christmas day off, but i'm sure they wouldn't mind people coming in and working on their day off. i've never in my life heard of "having to take a day off." work your little heart out, workaholics.

i'm no christian, but i sure as heck love christmas. it's FESTIVE, it's FUN, it's a reason to CELEBRATE being alive, giving to people you love, and feeling GOOD.

i'm not a mean person, but penelope trunk, you are scrooge. do what you want to do and let people do what they want to do. that's what Live And Let Live is all about – minding your own damn business.

yay to diversity. boo to putting other people's practices down. that's the POINT of DIVERSITY.

Do not under estimate the intelligence of Ms. Penelope. She drops these bombs out here to get us all going. It worked, we are like putty in her hands. Good job Penelope! Kudu's to all the non-hateful comments so far and sorry to those that may have been offended by my original post. Have a save holiday season and "Be Excellent to Each other!"

This is anti-Christian propanda.

Your point #5 and the comment from Guy Incognito says it all. I might add: you're free to go wherever the local culture suits you. Either get there, or appreciate the place that has you as a guest. Note that I'm not Jewish, nor Christian, I am not American and don't live in the US.

Where I grew up in MD. there were many Jewish children. So we had both Yom Kipour and Rosh Hashanah off as school holidays. We also had Christmas off as many children were also Christian. I always thought this was done for pratical reasons. When half the class or more is absent, it does not make much sense for a teacher to cover new material and to have days of busy work just does not make sense. I think this happens for offices as well. If the majority of people are out from work, it is ineffective to pay for employees to come in and do virtually nothing.

As a child I always liked my days off of school even though I was not Jewish. I would fill them with play dates, board games, riding my bike etc…

I understand that Christmas is tougher because so many stores, restaurants etc… are closed. But this is the case every year. So if I did not celebrate Christmas, I would plan ahead for it. Probably find some friends, have food on hand and some games or just get a few books out of the library the week before that I had not had time to read and enjoy the break from work.

I am amazed when I hear some of my Jewish friends talk about not turning on a light switch for 24 hours or cooking or driving or shopping. Just amazing! I realize not all Jews are this strict but with some planning, they really enjoy their Sabbath.

For you Dec. 25th is not a special day. It has the potential to be whatever you imagine it to be. Be creative and enjoy it.

Hi Penelope,

Wow – as a Christian may I just say "What a fantastic article".

What you've said makes alot of sense and I really appreciate the new perspective that you've raised.

Great, thought-provoking writing once again!

I have two different stories for you 1. I went to one of my favorite stores to pick something up but they were closed. The family is Jewish and had to leave before sun down. 2. A few days ago I went to my local deli the owners who are Muslim closed the store so they could pray. I will admit I cursed a little to myself
when I found out the shops were closed but I just dealt with it. What were these people really suppose to do ignore thousands of years of they history so I could buy a shirt or a soda. Why are you fighting a day off? I am not Jewish but if I could get off for Yom Kippur I would take it and run. Also I live NYC and our public schools close for various Jewish Holidays, holidays I did not get because I went to a Catholic school.

North American was FOUNDED on Christian faith and way of doing things. Since then, things have changed so much that we can fairly say that North America is not a Christian country. Thanksgiving was also FOUNDED on Christian faith, but the holiday's meaning has changed so much since then…now it is just a symbol of the football game, gourging yourself with beer and chicken.

As a Muslim, I can relate to much of what you are saying, but I do not mind taking off for Christmas. That is just expected when so many other people celebrate the holiday. Actually, I am living in Jordan right now, and Christmas is a national holiday along with the Muslim Eid holidays.

I have found that it is really hard for some people back home in the US to understand why we do not participate in Christmas celebrations or office parties. Parties are especially problematic for Muslims because of the presence of alcohol and other factors.

If I could add #6 to your list, it would be:

"I have Muslim/Jewish friends who celebrate Christmas and exchange gifts, so I don't see why you would have a problem with it."

Maybe you do, but I don't personally know any Muslims who celebrate Christmas. And, if they exist (and I am sure they must), that doesn't necessarily mean they are the model I want to follow.

It is really interesting, Penelope, what you said about giving "Christmas" status to an occassion like Hanukkah, which is not the same type of holiday. I also find people doing this on some level with Ramadan and the Eid.

I also notice some hostility in the comments here, with people questioning why a non-Christian can't find/enjoy the "spirit" of Christmas during this holiday season. This really goes back to the fact that it is a Christian holiday and therefore generally without meaning to people of different faiths.

I read the original post. I smile.

I read the responses. I have a grin all around.

The good news is that we are still humans: we love, we hate, we feel. And that is good.
The bad news is that we are still humans: we hate so much and we love so much that we are willing to destroy others in the name of it. And that is bad.

Old times, in a country (or galaxy) far, far away:
Two guys go in front of a judge with a complaint. The judge listens to the first man. At the end he says: "You are right." The other one jumps: "Wait, listen to my side of the story." So the judge listens and at the end he says: "You are right." But then both of them say: "We cannot be both right." And the judge says: "You are right again. Court adjourned."

Enjoy life… this is not a rehearsal.

Thank you for stirring the brains and the emotions!

Provocative column, and as an agnostic, I understand your frustration.

But you overstate your case. "The only people who think Christmas is not religious are the Christians. Everyone else thinks, “This is not my holiday.”

Umm. No. You don't speak for all non-Christians. It may be a religious holiday for Christians, but many folks of all beliefs participate the secular celebration that has emerged. Some honor the pagan roots of the holiday. It all gets wrapped up in "Christmas" for many of us. And that's not a bad thing.

That said, you are right about how the focus on Christmas in the workplace can undermine diversity. In fact, all the sturm und drang over "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays" is a reflection of an anti-diversity mentality. (ie, "This is a Christian country, dammit, and we say 'Merry Christmas!') If you need evidence, look at all the otherwise-intelligent folks who cling to the misconception that the US is a Christian country.

We are a secular nation. And while I disagree with some of your remarks, I'm really glad to see someone with such a following remind folks of that fact.

Axial Tilt Is The Reason For The Season.

As a non-Christian, I really do dislike this time of year. I find the consumerism ridiculous and the fakeness cloying. And is it just me or is everyone at their worst behavior this time of year?

The only thing I do like, other than cheesy Xmas music, is the fact that everyone has it as a holiday and thus it's easier to schedule group or family vacation plans. What Penelope finds annoying – everyone having to schedule plans around the holiday – I actually find makes scheduling easier.

Let me just say that it seems that we in America feel that we are entitled to every single thing that we think should be changed.

Next time we are about to publicly whine and complain about why the piano guy in the mall doesn't play my favorite song each Saturday – let's be thankful that we are in a country where we have a multitude of liberties and benefits that several other countries do not have. This is why other nations want to spit on the name of America, we are never satisfied with what we have…

Merry Christmas

Interesting you should choose to write this the day before Hanukkah starts!

I grew up in India. We have holidays for Diwali (Hindus), Eid (Muslims), Christmas (Christians), Gurupurab (Sikhs), Buddha Poornima (Buddhists), Mahavira Jayanti (Jains) definitely. A myriad of other holidays are also on offer. Nobody complains because you are free to work if you want, although there is one particular Hindu holiday which asks us to do pen-down and set our books in front of the Goddess of Knowledge. We do not complain even then, happy as we are working 90 hour work weeks, which run into 6 days for most people.

If you remember what kids do -"Goodies before God" – all festivals are fun. Bring on the food and the presents, I say! The rest is private stuff; some follow it and others don't. There is no need to whinge about it.

I live in the UK, far away from India now and Boxing Day (26th Dec) is a new tradition for me. I visit friends who are like family and they make bubble-and-squeak and we open presents and chat and enjoy each other's company. It is not religious (and I am not a Christian). They are like my family now.

If they were in India, they would also celebrate Diwali. With my family. That is how it is.

Oh, by the way in this Christian nation of yours (USA), which I am visiting at the moment, I, who was born in the Hindu tradition, spent the beginning of Hanukkah yesterday, with my Jewish friend and her family where they allowed me to light one of the Menorahs. I learnt that the rite is performed with the right hand like all Hindu religious things. I got a lot of great food, a present and chocolate gelt. Good evening in all!

I am staying with my family in Boston where the (Hindu parents') kids – 6 and 8 – told me all about Dreitel before I left and they asked me if I had brought gelt for my friends. They are also equally excited about their Christmas tree and the decorations.

In a nutshell: can we stop whining so much please? In my experience, you do not speak for all minorities including all Jewish people. Take a chill pill, P!

I guess Penelope must be going nuts about now since virtually every negative comment contains one of the five offensive things she refers to in her post. I don’t think this post is mean spirited at all and I can’t understand how anyone could take it as an attack on themselves or their religion. It is a request for tolerance and acceptance of diversity.

Even after reading all the “War on Christmas” silliness this time of year, I’m still shocked to hear people say “we are not allowed to say Merry Christmas any more”. Of course you are allowed to say whatever you like but a thoughtful, considerate person would not assume that everyone else celebrates Christmas. If you know for certain the religious beliefs of the person you are speaking to, and that they’re comfortable with it, go ahead and give them a personal greeting referencing their religion. Otherwise it is more respectful to say Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings, or just Have a Nice Day. Courtesy, generosity and patience should not be relegated to one part of the calendar and neither should mandatory holidays.

Penelope, you totally wussed out. You obviously don't think this is a serious topic, since this isn't your Yahoo! column this week, and you stop short of making the number one thing not to say on your little list: "Merry Christmas!"

I am struggling with some of the bases of your assertions, too. Christmas is a federal holiday, so as an employer I should disregard it and make you take a floating day to observe it?

What if I said the same thing to employees for Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday? While you think that holidays (whoops, sorry for the "holy day" connotation of the word. Let's call them "floaterdays") must pass some sort of PC test, why don't you assist the ACLU to find Christmas itself a gross violation of your civil rights?

Then a federal judge can make everyone work on Christmas, and companies won't have to make that painful choice.

Let's get this clear right away: the U.S. was not founded on Christian beliefs. It was deliberately not founded this way. The U.K. and other European countries had state religions, which the founders of the U.S. wished to avoid. They wanted all types of people to feel free to immigrate to the U.S. This was the reason the Pilgrims, the Quakers, the Baptists, Jews and several other religious groups had already come to the U.S., before it was an independent country, to escape the tyranny of a state-established religion.

Most of the Founders were religious, believing in a supreme, creative being, but were not necessarily Christians, being mostly Deists, and certainly not evangelical/fundamentalist Christians, as James Dobson, Pat Robertson or their ilk would have you believe, as evangelical/fundamentalism is a fairly recent branch of Christianity. They wanted to avoid a central government controlling people by having power over both the government and the religion, as was and is the case in England.

It's obvious from the comments that, as the majority finds themselves less overwhelming in their control of their surroundings and more readily questioned, they become defensive, often angrily defensive. To tell someone to shut up, call them names, be abusive, are certainly not the actions of true Christians, at least, I can't imagine Jesus behaving in that way to someone simply stating an opinion.

I notice that the one person who identifies himself as a pastor has behaved decently, thoughtfully and Christianly. Thank you.

Good luck, Penelope, from the member of an even smaller minority religion.

As a Christian pastor, I agree that calling the US a Christian nation is not only bad for diversity, it's bad for Christianity because the statement is false and it is often used to justify very selfish behavior on the part of Christians. To me, it's disappointing that Christmas has become such a cultural holiday. Frankly, I'd rather see the gift exchange on New Year's and have it transcend religion, plus then we could give Christmas back to faith.

OMG, this is the first time I have to say it: Penelope, you ARE stupid.

If you say that "The only people who think Christmas is not religious are the Christians." then I am pretty sure you'd agree: "The only people who think Christmas is religious are the Jews."

Come on!

From my point of view (long time reader of Mrs. Trunk's column; a Catholic Christian, raised in a Catholic country; economist by profession) this article is author’s personal opinion and should be read “as is” so all references about stupidity, religiousness, etc. are inapt.

However there are few Mrs.Trunk's “mistakes in logic”…

1) Office diversity undermined by celebrating Christmas is just not the proper/right thesis.
That is just as same as stating that celebrating Mother’s or Father’s day (btw, we don’t have much of that where I live) is hampering “family diversity”.
With such thesis, being the first few lines read, the only thing undermined is the article severity.

2) “The story” behind Christmas (which, btw, also has roots in pagan rituals; just as Easter) must be differentiated from “the story” of other holidays.
“Christmas hype” is economy driven capitalistic exploit inflated by its accidental proximity to New Year. This could be further explained but I guess everyone gets the point – this “hype” has nothing to do with religion [and the morale of the “true Christmas story”] – and, yes, everyone is in it, equally “guilty” for it.

3) Taking the days off anytime and/or not getting the days off for Christmas is simply too far stretched argument.
a) Taking or getting the days off is as “un-team-ish” and as “non-motivating” to the peers regardless of the reason for taking or getting the days off.
b) Getting the days off anytime is more undermining factor than getting the days off at Christmas.
c) And taking the days off for Christmas is just as same as taking the days off for shopping and partying. So why the hell not get the days off.

“As a home work” :-)), the next article should be explaining how taking/getting the days off influences work teams and work motivation and how should managers cope with it.
At least that the real issue in the country where I live.

I am a Christian and I totally agree with you Penelope. Thanks for posting this. I'd be totally thrilled if all the non-Christians out there would stop celebrating Christmas. It has nothing to do with them. If they want to become Christians then step on down anyday, we are happy to have you, but if you just want generic Time With Family Day then how's about asking the government to create that, instead of trying to dilute one of the most important events in Christian theology with some capitalist fantasy.

My God, Ms Trunk… are you like this all year? So you get a few days off at Christmas? Is anyone holding those days against you? Be grateful you're not a slave: you would have no days off at all!

I have a nice one: BUY Christmas. If all you Jews chip in, that should be a breeze, and then YOU can decide what to do with it. But I guess that won't happen, because Jews don't 'chip in'.

Really, Christmas is only 2 days a year. If you want to gripe about something, then why not attack sundays in favor of the Sabbat? There's 52 (!!) forced days off each year that you didn't choose!

Why don't you just try to fit in, behave like a true American and sue! As you can see, there are much more awful things to say than the 5 you mentioned.

This post made me sad. I can understand the frustration that comes with something you dislike immensely being shoved down your throat, but it still makes me sad that someone out there can so hate a holiday that I get so much enjoyment out of it, both from a secular and religious standpoint. I must say though – as a Christian, when I read or hear things like this – and I often do – I feel like the minority. That I should feel bad, ashamed or embarrassed that I enjoy this time of year and try to change my traditions and values so I don’t offend you. We all have choices in life and one of the biggest choices we make is to be tolerant of others. Which is why I am tolerating this post.

@Chief Talksalot

"Take THAT, Native Americans!"

Chief, if you review your history, you will see that the European invaders quickly killed or converted the Native American tribes. Although some still try to practice their historic religions, the vast majority have been converted and do practice Christianity. I have had interactions with Native American tribes in the north east and upper midwest.

Your attempt to be coy simply did not work. Please take the opportunity to view your history and culture.

I will concede that the Christian Europeans of the 14th to the 17th centuries devastated and changed Native American life. The estimated 15 million indigenous peoples were wrongly and systematically removed from the Americas for which I morn.

Compelling post, Penelope — way to stir the pot.

As an observant Jew (yes, I take off all of those 13 days and leave early on Fridays in the winter time), I've come to find that my beliefs DO have an effect on my co-workers, especially the ones who have to fill in for me when I'm at shul.

It's not ideal, but it's reality. It's also reality that people in my company overwhelming celebrate Christmas, even if I don't.

Religion in the workplace is a difficult subject, and for someone with a lot of needs, it can be a deal-breaker.

That's just the reality of life.

PT – While I find your basic theory *somewhat* sound, your argument is lacking. My reply may sound nasty, and if it does, I truly apologize. It was not my intent at all. (Sorry so long!)

Your #1: CHRISTians DO have the authority to “dictate” what CHRISTmas is and what it isn’t. However, you are correct in one aspect: Christmas is NOT for everyone. If you don’t like it, just don’t celebrate it. In fact, be sure to show up to work on Christmas day to show how much you hate it.

Your #2: Have you ever asked your employer if you could work on Christmas day in exchange for getting a day off for Yom Kippur? I’m guessing the answer is, “no.” If this was really a huge issue, wouldn’t you find an employer willing to work with you? I would. In fact, may I suggest a Jewish company or one of those who "promote diversity?"
Also, you ask, “Why … no one has to take a personal day for Christmas?” A: Because the company is already closed for Christmas. You don’t have to take a personal day to be off on Sunday if your office is closed on Sundays, do you? I mean, if your office was open on Christmas, you *would* be required to take a personal day.

Your #3: “I know I have a bad attitude.” Then why would your company work with you to implement any of your ideas, religious in nature or not? Why not show your employer how the change would benefit the organization instead of having a bad attitude for 6 weeks out of the year?

Your #4. You don't want off for "any Jewish holiday?" Refer back to #2: "I want a day off for Yom Kippur." I don't follow.

Here, you also say "WE want floating holidays that everyone uses, for whatever they want." Who, exactly, is, "we?" You later say, "People want tolerance and diversity," but I think the majority of 'people' are getting tired of this political correctness. Since when did our democratic society decide it was a good idea to punish the majority so not to offend the minority? Personally, I am not a big fan of Halloween, but I am not going to complain to (or sue) my homeowner's association and my neighbors until all trick-or-treating comes to an end in my neighborhood or my city. Why? Because I realize I am in the minority. I respect the majority's right to celebrate what I consider a silly holiday.

Q: Do you know why so many companies have failed to even attempt to implement a "floating holiday" environment, eliminating "company" holidays altogether?
A: It wouldn't work. Why would [insert your company name here] want to pay you come to work on [insert evil "Christian" holiday here] when, as you mentioned, no one calls, few people are working, etc? What company would want such a poor ROI?

Your #5: It sounds like your co-workers first offered several suggestions to help you get over your bitterness. (“Stop complaining! You get an extra day off from work,” "Christmas is about good cheer. Focus on that and lose your bad attitude,” "You can also take a day off for Hanukkah,” etc.) They later decided it was a losing cause, telling you, "We get Christmas off at work because this is a Christian country,” or something mean like that. However, let's think about this statement. It is really incorrect? The U.S. citizens are so PC, they say things like "the U.S. was founded on 'religious' freedom, so our citizens could be free to be ANY 'religion,' be it Christian, Jew, atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, et al.” If this is correct, I would like you to name ONE of our founding fathers who was not a Christian. Is it any wonder why the U.S. celebrates CHRISTmas?

You then go on to state opinions and guesstimations as facts, causing your credibility to take a *serious* blow. ("The majority of the country thinks Christmas is actually sanctioned by the government" and "businesses that promote diversity have more profits in the long run than companies that do not.") Where did you get either of these “facts?” I have been a business man for more than 20 years. I have a B.B.A, with a major in Business Management. I have been to countless seminars and trainings, read numerous books, etc. Yet I have never heard of how promoting diversity increases profits. What a well-kept secret! I'm not saying it's a bad idea; in fact, I like it. I just cannot think of a single company which can show their increased diversity = increased profits. The two are mutually exclusive.

Let me finish by saying I think your idea may have merit. If “Christmas” truly offends those in your workplace, a "floating holiday" environment could reduce such offenses. Just remember – in order to create such a schedule, ALL holiday time must be “floating.” E.G., the company cannot close for 4th of July (as we cannot offend non-Americans who work for us), Thanksgiving (another American holiday), Memorial Day or Veteran's Day (let's not offend our anti-war co-workers), New Year's Day (we may have those who use a different calendar), Labor Day (who wants to work, anyway?), Columbus Day…

Penelope – these people are nuts. i feel exactly the way you do – except I have an additional complication. I married a christian, so now i have a tree in my own house. at the same time that i complain to the director of my kids school that they should not have that christmas tree, and that they need to take it down. try explaining all that to the kids.

this is not tyranny of the minority, it is, as you say, that xmas is so pervasive that people don't realize how intrusive it is.

oh and one more thing…

let's just be clear that penelope (and the rest of us who agree with her) is not advocating the end of christmas.

anyone who wants to is welcome to celebrate christmas in their own home, in their friend's homes and at their church. no one is trying to stop the celebration of christmas! we just want it celebrated in it's rightful places (i.e. not work, school, banks, city hall etc.).

I agree with James Jordan "there are real problems for minorities .. racism, social injustice, profiling, and the rest ..
being offended by a holiday that the majority enjoy trivializes the situation of minorities.
"

…To reiterate, someone trying to spread "Christmas cheer" with the best of intentions is hardly oppression of a minority.

If you don't celebrate Xmas, I can see it being annoying as most of us are extremely over the top about it and Hallmark and Macy's have turned into a 30 day holiday ala Ramadan. But seriously, you all need to get over yourselves. No one is oppressing you by having a Christmas tree in a school, its not like they are forcing Jewish children to say a Christian prayer or something.

I guess us "ignorant masses" aka the 70-80% of people in the country who celebrate Xmas, should just tear down all the Xmas decorations and piously celebrate in our own homes to avoid hurting anyone's feelings.

"Festivus for the Rest of Us"

Hi P:

Whew, what an interesting discussion.

I appreciate the way you speak – clear, direct and without sugarcoating. Where others found you "grumpy" "negative" or "bitchy," I just appreciated hearing how you feel about the Christmas holidays.

I respect everyone's right to a religion, or lack of one. Having faith and love in our hearts does a lot to both treat each other with respect and make it through the rough patches of our lives. I agree with keeping faith separate from our official working lives. As I get to know work colleagues, I like hearing about their personal beliefs, religious or otherwise. But I respect that all are different, and think the idea of floating holidays is a good one.

And, being married to a Navajo man, I have to agree with the comments about Thanksgiving. It is wonderful to have a day to step back and be grateful for what we have. But the lore of pilgrims and indians sitting down at a table as equals with mutual respect is not true to history. After native people shared their food, knowledge of the land and hunting techniques with new settlers, they found themselves isolated, alone and without land. The process of removing their land from them was neither legal nor admirable. Everything from giving them disease-laden blankets to introducing alcohol was used to systematically destroy them.

Despite this, most native people, including my husband's family, celebrate Thanksgiving in the spirit of family and gratitude. I like to think it speaks to the power of forgiveness and grace. But to see Thanksgiving as a non-controversial holiday is missing the experience of a significant population of the U.S.

This is why the whole issue of illegal immigration really burns me up. If we are true to history, those like me of European descent have to own up to our own "illegal immigrant" status, though a few generations removed. But that is another rant for another day.

This whole conversation, including your post and all the responses just make me think: just because someone has a different view than mine doesn't mean they are attacking me. So your description of what it felt like to be Jewish during Christmas wasn't an attack on Christians. At least how I read it.

Yes! And I want pregnancy leave even though I never will be pregant and I want sick leave even though I never get sick. And I want extra days off because my co-workers take extra days off for their kids.I want personal phone time because my co-worker take personal time talking to the schools about their kids.

Grow up. Life isn't always fair, is it?

Penelope:

Thanks G-d for your keen observations about the difficulty of dis-engaging from insidious influence of Christendom. I was severely chastised and penalized in my consulting career by trying to bow out of the "holiday" festivities. My statement of, "I am sorry, I do not observe this holiday, even in it's secular aspects, such as Secret Santa, etc.'

I always wish people well, and bow out. Although the Indian holiday of Devali was enjoyed by most of the lab, the silicon valley network would not let poor AW live down the refusal to trim company tress and give cheap gifts.

I am not a grumpy man, I just don't want to be dragged into a holiday that is poisoning the air with a minimally corrupting influence – not just of cramming the birth of a renegade Jew down my Jewish throat, but in subtly denying the true issue of my holiday:

That true miracles come through the agency of the ordinary man or woman, as a direct manifestation of he divine allowing us to triumph over evil.

A great miracle happened here, Penelope.

Penelope…(and whomever else might read this)

On behalf of all Christians,

WE ARE TERRIBLY SORRY.

Please forgive us for rudely imposing our religion, (sub)culture, traditions, presuppositions, lexicon, calendar, and miscellany upon others.

I mean that with sincerity. ALL sincerity.

I am ashamed that people claiming to be Christians are intolerant, and ignorant of the small size of their frame of reference.

It's like a form of autism in how we repeatedly fail to see the OTHER'S viewpoint.

Which in the case of Christmas is entirely retarded: considering that Christians hijacked a pagan holiday in 'the name of the Lord,' yet so little about this time of year has much to do with recognizing the person and teachings of Jesus.

And that Jesus was likely born in the Spring as we Westerners know it, when we remember Jesus' death, not his birth, yet continue to mix metaphors into a weird, white, American holiday-casserole of eggs, lilies, rabbits, crosses, chocolate, and of course, empty tombs.

I pray you and others accept my apology, albeit a feeble one.

And dear GOD, please pray for us. We Christians do try, overall. And there are a growing number like myself who've chosen to stop behaving so badly unaware.

In the meanwhile, we beg of your mercy, and for you to show us by example what tolerance means…I promise, some of us will learn.

Peace be with you. Deep peace.

Eric Nentrup

Should I leave a comment when there are so many already?

1. This made me laff:

>

My good friend says that to me all the time. Okay, Valentine's Day and Halloween are no longer strictly religious or even Christian holidays but Christmas is.

2. I, too, believe very strongly in the separation of church and state. I don't think Starbucks should start playing Christmas songs on November 8th.

3. However, most of the people in Canada are Christian. It's a country that was started by Christians. Everyone else came after.

And as long as I am recognized as an equal by other Canadians, I think that there's something wrong with making diversity oppressive by trying to quash the pleasant tradition of 90% of the population.

I mean what are the problems listed here? Having to take off Christmas Day and having to tolerate a Christmas party? That's not so bad.

Having your children study the saints of another religion is something different but that's not at work.

I went to a non-religious, publicly funded university which has always had a significant number of Jewish students so it called off classes during the Jewish high holidays. Was it so awful? A Jewish professor is agitating to have this policy cancelled.

I want a day off on Christmas but will make it a point invite my non christian friends to my home.

Being from the UK originally, I have 2 problems with Christmas in the US: 1) too much religion, not enough booze and trifle, and 2) insufficient days off.

As for Jewish holidays, my kids are in the Montgomery County MD system, and they got Rosh Hashanah off. Mazel tov on days off, I always say!

Well, you got my engine going.

Sorry for the long rant but you started it. (Oops now the English students will be after me)
Let's start with "diversity" or the more recent PC terminology of "inclusion". It does seem everyone who screams the loudest about the need for diversity or inclusion are the very ones who are compelled to tell other people to shut up or "stop cramming your belief down my throat". Hmm. Pot calling the kettle a darker than plain color not to be spoken (don't want anyone after me on this one).
Now moving on towards the concept of holiday.
You are right in the whole holiday issue. The term holiday has its origins from "Holy Day". Back when, certain days (check your Jewish calendar for instance) were days when things are/were not to be done because of religious reasons. Sabbath may be one you know but then again, you, since you enjoy it so much, probably work on the Sabbath.
In regards to Christmas and inclusion, although Christmas is based on the birth of Christ, the actual timing of his birth was nowhere near December 25 (September sounds good). So, for all my Pagan friends who commented on or at least read the blog, in fact Christmas was originally celebrated at this time to appeal to the Pagans in order for them to have Holy Day without it being a "religious" day. Albeit, by a Pope who had influence on the Emperor who was a Pagan. Don't believe me? Look up the origin of the decorated tree (no offense Green Peace. I have a fake one. Crap, now Al Gore will chase me) and the fact that Christmas falls in the Winter solstice, not very Christian. Concluded by Christ had one day of birth not the 12 days of Christmas. Oh, and the 3 dudes from the "East" that took longer than 12 days to arrive; last I checked was Asia or Asia Minor (pretty friggin inclusive)
Yes, the music constantly in my ear is annoying but so is traffic in the morning or a cancelled flight. But do listen to Frosty The Snowman. It has nothing to do with Christmas or religion but all to do with winter. Shhh.
From a practicality standpoint, companies plan business around time off, such as this 12/25 thingy. This has much to do with knowing when the plant will be down. Imagine trying to run a business with people taking all sorts of time off at all different times and the administration of that time. Wait, now I know why you want to work on Christmas. It is a coup to take over the company to enforce diversity. Very sly.
As for you Thanksgiving naysayers, think about the fact that it is a holiday celebrated in Puerto Rico. I mean after all, the Pilgrims landed at San Juan Rock. No, wait. Why do they celebrate this event?

For you yearly celebrants: A new year means I am getting older and it forces me to drink champagne (sorry for the AA folks out there). So, you damn well better not celebrate 1/1 or I am gonna be pissed and not feel I fit in your diversity plans for recovering seniors. Not very inclusive of you.

Sorry for this bit. Those Thanksgiving originators (Pilgrims) came here because of the Church of England. The USA is a country founded by Christians trying to escape persecution and oppression to open it up for Religious freedom for all to celebrate what they believe. So, believe as you must but don't tell me I can't be public with mine. The last time a Jew was told to stop, well, they hung him on a cross.

Let's get off the high horse here because, after all, it is really only a pony you have. Damn it, now I am picking on animals. The Vegans will be after me.

Oh, how I could go on but I need prepare for Independence Day. Oops, that is so narrow minded of me for not thinking of all those people out there who have yet to experience freedom of religion, speech or plain old freedom.

p.s. If we do end up with floating days, don't take off for birthdays. The Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate them. Wouldn't be inclusive of you.

Diversity is not color, religion…. It is the whole and the parts of the whole that make us the people of this world. Stop beating one another over difference and get together to solve the issues that plague us all.
Don't like Christmas day, then take it off and go help someone less fortunate. You just don't do it in the name of Jesus, Allah, Buddha or? Do it in the name of Peace.

I grew up in a place where being Christian or Jewish was applied as an adjective. I am Christian, but would never characterize myself as A Christian, since that seems to be both narrow-minded and declaratory.

Kind of like the hypocrites on the street corner in Matthew.

I was one of four kids who actually showed up in school on the Jewish Holidays. That's OK, we worked around it.I even worked around an occasion when everyone I worked with was Jewish and I couldn't get New Year's off.

Give me a break guys.

Judging from behavior (and the thinking that went into so many comments here) I would still assert that the best Christians I personally know, happen to be a Jew and a Muslim.

Never mind what they believe, their actions bespeak love, not decay. And I would consider lumping Penelope in there, since I suspect her purpose was to stir up trouble, drive traffic and gain notoriety. More of an atheist than a Jew, I think.

Ms. Trunk,

I am also a Jew of German and Russian extraction. Honestly, I was shocked by many of the delusional comments you made here. However, I'll only say that I regard you as the worst kind of Jew and I'd disown you if I could.

To the rest of you,

Merry Christmas

Diversity? Diversity? Go almost anywhere in the world today and the concept of diversity is so-called American culture; carbon copies of your malls etc. Don't get me wrong I love that stuff but let's not be hypocritical and talk about "diversity".

Let's be real folks, forget the PC; you strive for homogeny but throw a few of the silent minorities in to keep the PC mix ok.

So a Jew said something they felt personally about Christmas in terms of work holidays, imposed atmosphere and separation of religion and state. Get over yourselves. Home of the free .. my donkey!

Mary J, I thought I was done with this until I saw your post.. but Darn, it really did get me quite irked. Maybe because of the fact that what you said though pompous, was extremely misinformed

Here is something that was quoted from the united Nations that may better explain why diversity IS INDEED Important to Country and Land..

"Nevertheless, it also says the need to combat discrimination at work is more urgent than it was four years ago "in the face of a world that appears increasingly unequal, insecure and unsafe", adding that "significant and persistent inequalities in income, assets and opportunities dilute the effectiveness of any action aimed at combating discrimination. This may lead to political instability and social upheaval, which upset investment and economic growth". These barriers to equality can prevent societies from realizing the full potential of today's globalized economy"

Here is something that was quoted from the united Nations that may better explain why diversity IS INDEED Important to Country and Land..

PS — That doesn't explain anything about how "important" "diversity" is to Country and Land. If a long-standing cultural tradition of the locals must be "suppressed" or "downgraded" in ordwe to make newly come people feel "equal" — how is that "enrichment" of the local culture? It's not "enrichment" — it's replacement. In the UK Christmas is also being downgraded because of the large Muslim immigrant population that is now living there. Imagine that — in the land of Ebenezer Scrooge, Christmas is being downgraded! How is that "enrichment" of the British culture, may I ask?

MaryJ
your comments exude ignorance. Sorry P, but, this really rattles my chain. If I need to I can tolerate informed discrimination, but, when someone tries to elaborate a "point" w/o any Substance and based upon pretty much sweeping Generalizations – my barbs come out

China not diverse? Really? I suppose Mexicans are all Indian as well? or people from India are all dark skinned? Indeed Almost EVERY country in the World has their own form of diversity issues. Based upon Race, Class, Religion or Culture. Religion being the Largest source of discrimination in many cultures and countries, going back to the days of lore.

India for Example, like Hong Kong Recently gained BACK their independence from a Country that Ruled them. This Country (Great Britain) was the visitors. There are over tens of different Religions in India as there is Also in CHINA – and Yes, China Does also have Christians, but they also have National Religious Holidays based upon the Budhist Religion which the MAJORITY follow

Maybe you should follow finance issues to understand that there are many reasons that they are kicking our ass, and a lot of it has to do with Money.. Like the fact that THEY pretty much are holding the Largest Reserve of American Currency?

Regarding my earlier post, well if you decided to READ the WHOLE post, then maybe you would have better understood what I wrote had to do with what You Wrote… but, again, sweeping Generalizations without facts seem to be your strong point!

Again did you read the following posts — I WAS NOT the one who started with the comments about Diversity and China. Again Diversity does not apply to Race, especially with regards to employment, and that is NOT only what the UN Meant either
– quoted from the UN Report –
Equality at work: Tackling the challenges provides a global picture of job-related discrimination, citing both progress and failures in the struggle to fight discrimination ranging from traditional forms such as sex, race or religion, to newer forms based on age, sexual orientation, HIV/AIDS status and disability. "The condemnation of discrimination in employment and occupation is today almost universal, as is the political commitment to tackle it."

RE Putnam and his findings quoted Putnam, a good liberal, is very much pro-diversity and pro-immigration. But, says Lloyd, Putnam is "a liberal who sometimes seems to shrink from the impact of his own findings", which maybe helps explain why Putnam has now gone on the record saying that both of the FT articles were "misleading".Instead, he prefers the editorial which runs in the FT today. http://www.rgemonitor.com/blog/economonitor/151162

Maybe check out his interview for more details from his own mouth http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=875

Anyways, this was about Xmas, not about diversity — what does Xmas have to do with RACE?? do only White people enjoy Xmas?? Only Americans?

Let's get back to the subject!

Puhlllleese, quit trying to use unsubstantiated rhetoric to Prove Fallacy

You Said that the UN Said many things which indeed they Did Not, but here is something that may interest you regarding China in Regards to their Diversity – especially since you like to Quote Statistics and educational institutions http://spice.stanford.edu/publications/20202/

Number 2 I did Not Initially Bring up China in this topic, and Neither did I Compare China to America.

3 – UN does indeed have Data to support their investigation; Obviously you have NOT read the Report (extensive I understand) Since You have MISQUOTED their data Several Times.. that, or you Made up your information.. Scientific.. well considering that Science is Indeed NOT FACT, but just Theory, I would dare say it is probably scientific; Yes, it was thoroughly researched, and unlike Putman, included research from Countries, income status, and classes within the United nations.. NOT only the united States.

4 – Putman wasn't trying to Save His Career, he was trying to Demonstrate to the public that his information is being misused and misunderstood.. as one would see by his own words

5 – You are assuming that A) I am not Christian B) I am Not Male C) I am not white

6) I don't hate Anyone- but I DO DISLIKE when people Try to pass off and Manipulate uninformed, and unrepresented personal beliefs and rhetoric as facts – especially when it is to cover up what appears to be thinly disguised bigotry

Why not going to the essence and celebrate (it doesnt work if i am going to work or am not going to work for a day or a week, its just the same to my life ongoing) all the festivities, festivals, saints birthdays and religious -as it has been mentioned- holidays all the time. But only after having REALLY understood their deep meaning (as it is written in the last pace of the post) Best, r.

Do you decline your "Christma$ Bonu$)every year?

* * * * * *

If only I got one…

-Penelope

People need things to complain about. Penny here gives them what they need.

If you want tolerance, lady, try showing it once in a while.

Oh, and Merry Christmas. :)

Christmas really isn't about Jesus being born, though. These days, it's about who the can get into the most debt before the new year comes buying their bratty kid a new generation of iPod (even though he currently have 5 that work fine already, other than the fact that they're "old").

I'm another one who doesn't like Christmas. I gave it up about 12 years for religious and practical reasons. I'll admit that I do care that others celebrate it and expect me to, also. I get the horrified, "What are you, a pagan?" looks and similar comments when I tell someone that I don't celebrate it. I really want to say, "No, that's why I don't celebrate it. I'm not a pagan. Do you observe Sukkot? No? Why not??" I do respond with that now and then but ahhh, that's a can of worms!

Honestly, I don't like that I must take the day off when I'd rather not. And that I have to beg to get the days I observe off and even then don't normally get them. But such is the price of living in the U.S. I take the good with the bad just like everyone else here. But that doesn't mean I have to like it all. ;)

Jeremiah, more Christians know about this than you think, I believe. Most I know do, anyway. But it isn't just non-Christians who might be irritated by all this. A lot of Christians don't celebrate Christmas, though most do, and a lot of them feel as Penelope does. And as I do. But it's the minority, I'm sure.

I've spent the last 12 years cluing people in and as I said in my previous post, I get horrified looks and responses. Honestly, most don't *care* that other people feel as they do. Tis the Christmas spirit, no doubt…

You get a day or more off – reason enough to celebrate! Once everyone starts complaining about having an actual day off – that isn't taken from your small vacation package – then there will be no more days off. Hello??? Enjoy your vacation!

I've just read several of your blogs. Full of complaints but generally well written. But this one– wow. Why are you so worked up against Christmas? I'm surprised you don't get this worked up for 4th of July, Thanksgiving, and the other "forced" holidays. Could it be that you are simply anti-Christian, and not just anti-Christmas? A spirit of tolerism towards Christians, as well as to the other religions represented in the workplace would go a long way… having managed a large and diverse group which included Hindus, Jews, pagans, Christians and agnostics, you allow people to observe their days and rituals so long as it doesn't interfere with work. You claim to be asking for tolerance, but you are showing none yourself. In fact you come across as blatantly antagonistic.

No need for the angry tirade.

I have to agree with you Penelope. I am not Jewish, but I do not celebrate Christmas yet I was subject to my offices Christmas parties, etc. You're absolutely right about the whole Christmas's day off. No one gets Hanukkah, Kwanzaa or any of the other holidays off, but the Christian Holiday Christmas is honored. What ever happened to diversity?

Sure…let's be a fractious society: no common bond, no common traditions. Everyone does what's good for them. Many small communities forming around their common beliefs, or small larger communities forming around their common beliefs. We've seen countries like that and they are anything but united.

As a kid I was forced to take off from school for holiday's that didn't mean anything to me and now my kids do; I never gave it any thought, but now i wonder if my liberal tolerance has gone too far when they look to undo our society founded on christianity. Accepting diversity means tolerating other peoples beliefs and needs, and sometimes the expression of their beliefs impacts your life. You don't demonstrate much tolerance for diversity in this article. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Minorities seem to have license to offend the majority. It's never wise to offend intentionally.

Be careful. If I meet you I may kiss you.

I'm the jerk who offered the suggestion that the nonprofit I work for eliminate holiday celebrations for staff and clients so we could try to avoid cultural/religious issues with clients and I could not waste days decorating our offices.
It didn't go well.
As an evangelical Christian I know Christmas is a Christian day- we're a very self-gratifying faith right now, and so is our special holiday.
I work every religious holiday. Christmas is my most productive day of the year!
How sad that I would call you brave for voicing this opinion!

Laura … Christmas in April? Did the comment get stuck in your outbox for four months? Besides being a Christian country it's apparently a democracy and I always thought that freedom of religion meant just that. As for bitter.. tirades and arrogance ummmm … pot, kettle, black anyone.

I don't deny you your right to your opinion but I don't respect it. Your passion is admirable but then so is Penelope's; I would be happy to work with either of you any time. Let's all take a deep breath and say together, "Only 8 shopping months until next Christmas."

Posted by K Francis | December 5, 2007

I can’t believe, in all of the ranting and raving, that nobody came to the defense of Hanukkah. It’s not just about a war. It was a war against religious oppression. It was a victory for religious freedom! The reason the menorahs are to be displayed in the window is to remind everyone that we are free to practice our faith. I think that’s pretty powerful, even if most of my neighbors have no clue what a Hanukkah menorah is.
*** Apparently you don't have a clue either… I was raised as a reformed Jew, but went to Schul for a year. I learned that we celebrate this minor holiday to recognize the fact that 1 jar of oil lasted 8 days, providing light for the Macabeeans when normally the oil would have burned out by the end of the first day. So to recap, we celebrate for God having given the miracle of the light. ***

Moving on, these types of posts seem to act as a weeding out. It becomes obvious who is qualified to be in this community of thought and who should just go somewhere else, or maybe put their head back in the sand where it came from.

*** Might just be me, but either you are wearing a cloak of Ostrich feathers, or maybe you should clarify your "qualifications".

IMHO