Everyone was right. About everything.
Everyone who said that me moving with the kids to Swarthmore would be the end of my marriage is probably right.
And while I’m at it, all the people who told me to stay away from the farmer when we were dating — you were probably right too.
And the people who say in the comments section that I don’t know how to do intimacy. I guess you were right also. Because clearly I’m having trouble.
I keep saying this to Melissa and she keeps telling me I made good choices. She points out that my ex-husband was excellent genetic material and he is a great ex-husband. That is true. I mean, we spend a week together in the apartment each time he visits the boys in Swarthmore.
And Melissa points out that the farmer is fun, and the farm is a totally great place to raise two little boys. Well, until the kids couldn’t do anything they wanted to do on the farm.
The farmer is not going to move here. He’s decided on a once-a-month visitation schedule right now. And he told me that he has been keeping track of any money he spent on the family that is over $200 and I owe him $30K. To be clear, $30K is not that much for me. I can pay it back.
Melissa said I should send the farmer a bill for all the times I had to hire a driver to get us to Chicago so that we could do cello and still live on a farm.
I told her that’s not fair because I agreed, when I moved the boys to the farm, that the farmer would not have to pay for anything for us – he just paid utilities and taxes how he always did.
Melissa says, “That’s not an agreement you make going into a good relationship.”
I said, “Duh.”
In Swarthmore I told the boys they have to start doing their own laundry. And then I said they should do mine, too. They complained, of course. And I told them about kindness and caring and they better be nice to me because how you treat your mom is how you treat your wife and I don’t want my future daughter-in-law to think I let the boys walk all over me.
That’s true about how men treat their wives like they treat their mothers. For example, farmers have largely financial relationships with their parents, and that is largely what I had with the farmer as well. I didn’t mean for it to be that way. I don’t actually care about money and neither does he, which maybe means that was all we were willing to give to each other.
Some days I worry that my older son is not disciplined enough to make it through college. He does not read as much as I did when I was his age. And I was in special-ed English classes for reading below grade level. But then I notice he does his laundry like clockwork, even folding while it’s still all warm from the dryer.
I asked my son to do my laundry and because the last time I screamed this time he said fine. But he also said that my clothes take longer to dry than his do and he can’t wait because his biology tutor is coming. Impressed with this magnificent display of time management, I said I’d get mine out of the dryer.
Then, two days later, all my clothes were gone.
I tried to not really say anything to the kids. They know things are sort of falling apart for me: Yesterday my younger son told me, “Mom, it’s going to be hard for you to get a third husband at your age.”
I wanted to be speechless or deaf or something, but I decided a good mom would be reassuring, so I said, “Don’t worry. Dad loves us very much.”
The kids used to call the stepdad Dad and the biological dad by his first name. But recently the boys have noticed that there are huge differences between the two, so they say Dad for both and we all know which is which in context.
Of course, the boys are noticing there are huge similarities as well.
My younger son tells me my sweater smells.
My older son said, “She doesn’t have another sweater, all her laundry got stolen.”
WHAT????? How did he know?! The kids know so much more than I give them credit for knowing.
And I’m pretty sure you are that way, too.
I was thinking that I was worried that it would feel terrible to have to admit to you that I can’t keep a marriage together. But now I see that the worst thing is actually to have to answer my youngest son when he says, “Do you think that because I have two dads who don’t want to live with me that I won’t want to live with my kids either?”
On a lighter note, Taylor Swifts’ mom pretty much neglected the dad to stage mom her kid into stardom, while the dad stayed behind and financially supported the family.
They ended up divorced ‘media separated’ pretty early in her career.
I think they understood the longterm financial payoff for their daughter when they got her setup around 12. Going from middle class to upper class takes a huge sacrifice for child stars’ parents.
On that note, does your son have a financial open end-point when it comes to Cello? Do you know what needs to be done (yes) and is he at that level of musician stardom?
Marissa Mayer has this quote that I love, “I have a theory that burnout is about resentment. And you beat it by knowing what it is you’re giving up that makes you resentful.”
Is what you’re giving up helping the kid’s career chances? It would seem to me, you guys need to stay together a while longer to get him properly set up, if that’s what this is really about. Something tells me this has nothing to do with the advancement of the boys, though.
Taylor Swift made enough last year to cover the entire payroll of the Chicago Symphony. Twice. And still have $10 million left over.
The worst player in the NBA makes more money than the highest paid musician in any orchestra. Sigh.
Most people who put children in music lessons are not thinking in terms of a career or future salary, but about developing and encouraging a talent.
True, but most mothers don’t leave their husbands and move across the country to encourage a hobby.
Whenever I am stuck or need advice I come to your blog. I not always agree with you, but at least you sound honest and I love your writing.
I’m not totally caught up with all of the responses, but I think what may be getting lost here is that, regardless of who stays where, Matthew will still be their father. He has been for 8 or so years. Just as N is still their father, and they know this, Matthew will still be their father.
My stepfather (I was 17 when they married, so didn’t grow up with him) had been married twice. The first was to a woman who already had a daughter, the second wife and he had a daughter together. Even after he divorced his first wife, her daughter was (and still is) his daughter. Her daughter is his granddaughter. Every bit as much as his “real” daughter’s daughter is his granddaughter.
Unless there are extenuating circumstances, I think their relationship needs to be considered as its own factor.
I would agree with this, until P said the farmer refuses to visit much. It isn’t reported that he’s making separate arrangements with the kids, but as you point out she hasn’t clarified that and is currently bunching the relationship issues she is having with him, with her kids, as a total package.
It would make sense, if the relationship is legitimate, that the kids flew back to the farm to visit 2x per month, without P, since he isn’t coming out to Pa at all to see her. He should foot the bill for half of the visiting costs (really, I don’t get why the finances are this much of an issue 10 years into this relationship).
She is always with the kids, I don’t know how they’d be able to see their dads in their dad’s environments without her. Either way this needs to be clarified, because as with kids it’s not as easy to involve new ‘dads’, and leave old ‘dads’. If they had custody, she wouldn’t be moving so far away with them anyway. It’s just….unnecessary.
She needs to separate her issues from the kids’ relationships with the dads and let the kids see the dads without her, if her relationship is actually dissolving.
I don’t get the move to Pa, if both dads are near Madison, why not Chicago?
The move made sense, until all personal relationships went up in smoke.
Penelope, I haven’t written in years . . . If you were going to listen to any of your readers who are offering up advice, you might find a grain of wisdom for yourself, or perhaps a single puzzle piece. But it is so little that we have to offer. The best we, your fans, can offer you is support–unconditional support.
Rather, I would study my children and listen to their cues. I would then listen to my own heart after the chaos inside me subsided a bit. Then I would listen to the Farmer.
My impressions from reading your blog for years:
You and the farmer have a beautiful love story. I think you truly connected (at least in the beginning) in a way that is rare. He is smart enough to keep up with you and be interesting until the end. Again, rare.
You are not the easiest person to live with. You have big wants. All the time. Almost like an adrenaline junkie. And nothing can get in your way. You can be an unstoppable force which in many ways is what makes you sucessful. But…sometimes you need to get out of the drivers seat and be a passenger for awhile. Take a breath. Let someone else lead a little. It’s scary, yes. They will do things differently than you, yes. But it builds trust. If you never let anyone else lead, then the message you are giving them is that you don’t trust them to do things.
I can’t tell you to stop being insane. You will always be a little bit insane. And like Patricia up above said so eloquently, it’s why people will talk about you forever with both awe and exasperation.
You can’t ask a farmer to leave his farm. His family farm. The thing he was born into and has spent his whole life nurturing. He needs his farm. He needs his parents. He needs his community. I wish you could make a place there for you and your boys but I understand if you can’t. Sometimes it seemed to me like you were systematically separating him from family, farm and community. Maybe you wanted to feel more needed? It didn’t feel right to me.
Know this. Your boys will grow up and leave. Mine recently have. It’s the hardest thing. I’m trying to find my “new” identity. It’s hard. I have a good, strong marriage. I am so lucky. I am also not the easiest person to live with.
I enjoy reading your blog. I am rooting for you.
Really sorry to hear this. For some reason I also been thinking about you as it’s been some time since your last post. My thoughts are with you.
I’m Only A Man And The Full WITH Errors hahaha
Thank God, you came back!! I was worry…for real… Don’t ever do this again! I’m a silent guest and I was thinking to call a police for a missing person in Swarthmore, PA, but I didn’t know your real name. And calling from the Caribbean and since my first language it’s no English, you can imagine what crazy may be for them. Soooo..at least put a message in mailbag! Sorry for the rant, I love Penelope and keep going girl!!
Long distance is tough, especially when there isn’t an end date.
What does the Farmer want? Does he want to farm, no matter where it is? Or does he want to farm his farm where he is and make the best of it?
If it is the former, then, can the Farmer buy a farm near Swarthmore?
If it is the latter, then what if you hire someone to tend the farm while the farmer shifts his focus toward selling his farm stuff online, this way he can be working on building out his farm stuff but really working from anywhere?
Also, what do you and the kids want? Why Swarthmore? Can you move to Chicago instead where presumably it is closer to the farm?
I think if two people want to make the relationship work (and it definitely feels like the two of you want to), you can think beyond the seemingly restrictive, binary options you have (to move, or not to move), and think more creatively about other options that meet both of your needs at the same time! You want to meet your needs, not to win a imaginarily limited battle.
I don’t think it’s that “YOU can’t keep a marriage together.”
Two people grow the marriage together.
Or apart.
We love you anyway.
It is disgusting that you are putting your children in a position where if they ever decide to quit music, they will feel responsible for breaking up your marriage for nothing. If you aren’t happy in your marriage, leave. Don’t concoct some dumb excuse about music lessons. Because if you really cared about providing a stable and nurturing environment for your sons, you would have stayed in Wisconsin.
Sorry for your situation with the Farmer. But you know what? You don’t own him anything, you are not legally married with him. What you had was a “simulation” wedding. He it’s resentful and it’s normal. I’m going to said it: You should get back with your ex-husband since he it’s been a constant man in your life since your divorce and a great father. Or just stay single for a while until the kids get in college. I’m telling you, that week per month your ex stay with you, i’ts going to be 2 weeks then 3 and you know it’s going next. Well..your kids will love it… I’m assumed this for this post. Bless you, we love your posts..
I agree with this idea.
Penelope, I love your advice but the Farmer has been bad news since day 1.
Might be time to think what you said: “a 10 does not marry a 2” . Focus on yourself and your children now. Get healthy.
I’m an INTJ that married an ISTP farmer. I can relate to so much of what you say. But over 11 years of marriage he also became more and more abusive. When I found out he was hurting the kids when I wasn’t there, that was it for me. He was already completely emotionally unattached, then adding that to boot… nevertheless, he called the kids once a week for the first 6 months. Now it’s been two years since we have heard from him. But he pays his child support. Because he can do that and feel good without actually having to have a relationship. I feel a lot of empathy for your situation. These are difficult decisions. I recommend that you read the book, “Was That Really Me?” By Naomi Quenk. It discusses in detail the cognitive functions of the different personality types and how to find balance. Also “Sixteen Men: Understanding Masculine Personality Types” by Loren Pedersen was equally good.
I don’t know why, but this article reminds me of something someone said recently: “We have to satisfy our inner ‘musts’, and not just societal ‘shoulds’.”
Penelope, I appreciate how honest you are to us, and thank you for writing.
As for what your son asked/reflected -“Do you think that because I have two dads who don’t want to live with me that I won’t want to live with my kids either?”…
No two people are alike, and your son is already different from his Dad(s) for having this insight. Also, didn’t you mention in an earlier post that your parents abandoned you/or didn’t want you to live with them? And yet, you are willing to do whatever it takes to support and be with your children. This could just as well be an aspect of a ‘family of origin’ pattern your son inherits.
“Do you think that because I have two dads who don’t want to live with me that I won’t want to live with my kids either?”
I don’t fault a young boy for making a mistake of logic, yet he asked the wrong question, which ought to have been “My mother has now rejected two of my dads. How can I learn to choose a stable and loyal woman when my only example sucks.”
In fact, the framing of his initial question suggests rather clearly that PT has engaged in what legally is called “alienation” and attempted to shuck the blame onto the men and portrayed *them* as the problem.
Too bad for the kids, but I’d counsel any man to RUN (not walk) in the opposite direction from any relationship with PT.
You know what’s interesting about this comment is that there really aren’t any subjective people in these kids lives that (at least are written about) can weigh the real facts of the situation and help inform the children’s best interests, such as a case of the court with mandated visitation-perhaps with supervision.
How did P get full custody of the kids? Why doesn’t BioDad move to Swarthmore? Farmer doesn’t seem to be an OptionDad anymore- either he is involved or not. People always have to make decisions based on their kids’ best interests when they have children. If BioDad is visiting so much, and the son knows the parents are divorced, how does he not understand the visitation agreement (i.e. Dad and Mom don’t live together, so child must go visit Dad’s home)? Why don’t the boys visit the dad/s homes on their own?
P should definitely try to get an agreement with the Dad/s that suits the children’s needs. The kid wants one of them closer and accessible.
I have visited Penelope’s blog several times over the years (skimming scores of posts for a few hours on each visit) and have kept up with the main happenings, for the most part.
I have never thought that the relationship with the farmer was going to be a long-term one, for several reasons, most of which others have already mentioned in this comment thread.
I also never thought that Penelope or the farmer actually 100% wanted it to be an until-death-do-us-part relationship, because they are too different, their life directions are too different, their families are too different, they were never going to get married, Wisconsin is not the place for her, etc.
And that’s okay. Not everything has to be a forever thing.
It’s not unusual for some people to have serial several-years-long relationships, even with kids in tow.
A few years ago the German government was seriously discussing making legal marriage a 7-year commitment which would automatically dissolve at the end of the 7 years unless the parties decided to “renew” it for another 7. This is because across human history, across civilizations, across geographies, some humans often have not pair-bonded for life, but for chunks of a life. It’s normal, it’s understandable, it’s not automatically because people are “failures” or don’t try “hard enough” or don’t sacrifice enough for commitment or don’t want to provide kids with a “stable upbringing”.
It was a stage of their lives, for all of them (farmer included), and that stage is probably coming to an end.
It probably would have come to an end whether or not the cello lessons were a major concern. There would have been other big reasons for Penelope to feel compelled to do something drastically different and to zig instead of zagging. (And if not the ancestral tie to the Wisconsin land, there would have been other reasons for the farmer to say that their future journeys would be on different paths.)
Most kids are resilient and adaptable, especially when they have opportunities to expand their worlds, and when they have a modicum of basic security in their day-to-day life. (When they know what their address is — at least to know that they will have the same bed from week to week for at least the next few months, are able to feel safe at home, can bring friends over, are fed adequately and kept clean and healthy, are able to learn and study, have some quality time most days with at least one loving adult, etc.)
The past few years in Wisconsin is probably going to be a small part of the kids’ overall childhoods, when they look back on it after they grow up — the next part of Penelope’s life, however that evolves, will probably be a larger and more memorable part of their total childhoods for the kids (they will be teens during it).
It is good that they will be living in a city environment for this next stage, with plenty of access to new friends, schooling/learning, new experiences, pursuing their interests.
I would think this whether or not there were the cello-prodigy aspect, whether or not there were the homeschooling aspect. That is because I don’t think the situation for anyone/everyone in Wisconsin was good enough to be a solid, lifetime, fully-integrated-family thing. That’s no one’s fault, it’s not for the lack of trying, and it’s not for the lack of deep affection and sincere efforts.
So many people here are worried for the kids (losing the farm homebase and losing the farmer as a partial father figure), but I am glad for the kids, because I think that no matter how their home-life evolves with their mom, they are going to have to kind of partially take care of themselves, more and more as they get older, and it will be easier to do that if they are in a larger community where things are closer in distance, there are more resources, more options, more kinds of lifestyles being lived in close proximity, a more liberal take on life, etc.
I would be more worried about Penelope, not that I think it was wrong for her to move far away to a new city and dramatically plunge herself into a different environment (I think it was right for her to do it, and I expect it was exhilarating though scary), but because she is a little unhinged and scattershot/disorganized and used to relying on more reliable/responsible people to handle some of the work-a-day stuff for her, and she does not have that now (e.g., her lost/stolen laundry).
She probably would do well to have a kind of nanny or housekeeper for the whole family, someone who can run the household and make sure there is always some fruit in the fridge and that the electricity bill gets paid. This would not so much be an assistant for her professional efforts, but a housekeeper for the family and a nanny for the kids.
I am not sure that she can afford someone like that right now, but maybe she could hire someone very trustworthy and capable for a few hours a week, which might get everyone/the household more on an even keel.
Regarding the financial stuff, I’m not very interested in that, though I’ve noticed over the years that there have been contradictory claims and impressions given on the blog. I am not surprised that the farmer may have mentioned recently that he feels she owes him a substantial chunk of money, and I would not be surprised if what he’d given her over the years (above and beyond their initial arrangements) had not added up to a _much_ bigger sum than she was cognizant of. If I were her, I’d want to pay him back and to leave that relationship feeling like both parties were comfortable that it had ended equitably. She has mentioned that she has some large assets at the farm that she probably doesn’t have space for in the rental apartment in PA, and wouldn’t want to pay a moving company to move anyway, which she could give to the farmer to sell and keep the proceeds from. In any event, I do think he is probably owed money beyond their initial agreement about how they were going to split their bills when living together, and there is no reason for him to be out of many thousands of dollars since the relationship has come to an end.
Penelope has mentioned before that as she’s getting older she is experiencing not being one of the most attractive women in a given situation, not being noticed and favored and indulged as much as she was when she was younger; as she moves into her 50s as a single mother of 2 teens who has an unusual personality and life trajectory, it’s going to be a time of tremendous growth and change for her, not only in her children’s lives/schooling/growth, but also in her social life, her dating life, her professional life.
There will be many learning curves to climb. She needs to keep calm, stay focused, stay positive, look forward to the good things coming her way.
She has a lot positives going for her, and living in an urban East-Coasty kind of place, a moderately-sized city that is close to other cities, is the right spot for her.
In two or three years, she will probably look back to this living-above-a-donut-shop time, and especially back to the time living on the farm, and think that it feels so different to how her life has become, almost like it was a hazy daydream.
This is a time of great change for her (not just for her kids), and it seems like it’s supposed to happen this way; it’s past the time that the last chapter ought to have ended because the narrative must take a mighty turn now.
(And it’s a time of great change for the farmer too, not that I have much of a handle on him; I do hope that he will meet someone nice in his area who is more cut out to be his partner, get married, keep on farming, and be happy.)
It’s all for the best, and it will work out well (or at least it will work out better than it would have if she and her boys had stayed on the farm, because that simply wasn’t a good enough fit for everyone involved… and that’s okay!) It’s all okay. There is love there, there is respect — she should bring as much integrity as she can to the situation(s) and bring certain things to a dignified conclusion and start other things with hope and maturity.
It’s spooky how clever some ppl are. Thksna!
Hi Penelope- I randomly just came across your blog, and this post, and I am incredibly impressed by your transparency and authenticity. I am a single mom too so I get your struggles, and I am a writer as well so it really resonates with me how candid you are with your audience. I am certain that your sharing is helping many and I wish you luck with your journey going forward.
Light & love,
Mindy
I think marriage is one of the biggest decisions in a person’s life. Before getting married we should give proper time to relationship to know each other. In your case It’s looks like Farmer don’t love you, because he is not paying anything for you. Sometimes we all do mistakes to choose our life partner and you have done this three time, but don’t be tensed and don’t worry about what your child is saying to you, it’s not your fault. Always show your child that you are the best mom in the world. Either you can take online
extended family relationship tips from sites like Dawghoused.
I normally don’t leave comments because who reads them?
But your behavior reminds me so much of my ENTJ brother, that I just had to briefly make a comment (since you are ENTJ, I expect you process information in the same manner, through Te-Ni-Se-Fi).
You may be in a loop. Te-Se loop, fueled by that inferior Fi. If you sit down and maybe write down the things you’ve been doing, you’ll see a pattern to them; maybe you’re stuck in a pattern of doing things impulsively based on current information available to you. It happens when one is in a loop. You want to keep executing, keep acting on the information you see which is changing in real time.
DON’T.
I hope it has gotten better for you. But if it hasn’t, you need the time to sit down alone, maybe with someone you trust, and process your actions. You’ll then see how far back your Te-Se loop may go, and how you’ve engaged many actions without really understanding how you felt about them.
You may be repressing that Fi so strongly, that you don’t know why you do what you do, and how that could hinder your end goal. It seems like life is just full of action for you (and to be honest, what ENTJ’s life isn’t?), so you need to slow down and access Ni.
May I suggest brief moments of meditation every day? A lot of auxiliary Ni users swear by them to access Ni. It helps them center themselves and see the end goal better.
I read every comment. So thank you for leaving this one. I learn so much from the comments…
Penelope
Some of us have been reading this blog for a long time. Tell us what we want to know: are the stats better or worse for this post than for the first divorce? ;) Seriously sorry for you but it seems like the right thing. Anyway, the kids’ dads probably do want to live with the kids. They just don’t want to live with you. Sorry.
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