Five things people say about Christmas that drive me nuts
Christmas does not belong in the workplace because it undermines diversity at work. And businesses that promote diversity have more profits in the long run than companies that do not have a diverse workforce.
A big problem with Christmas is that those of us who have no reason to celebrate it have to spend a month between Thanksgiving and New Year’s dealing with Christmas at work. Christmas is the only religious holiday that everyone has to stop working for. It’s the only religious event that offices have parties to celebrate. These practices alienate non-Christians.
Businesses that curtail practices that alienate minorities will see growth to their bottom line as a direct result of this action. And besides, promoting acceptance of diverse backgrounds at work enriches our lives, independent of the bottom line.
But encouraging diversity doesn’t mean diverse ways to celebrate Christmas. Diversity is giving people space to ignore Christmas. Forcing people to take the day off requires everyone to run their work life around this holiday in a way they might not have chosen for themselves. Yet still, Christmas continues to permeate workplaces across the United States.
Do you want to make a difference? Start with yourself. When it comes to discussing Christmas in the workplace, here are five offensive things people say to someone who doesn’t celebrate Christmas. Don’t say them.
1. “Christmas is not a religious holiday.”
The only people who think Christmas is not religious are the Christians. Everyone else thinks, “This is not my holiday.” In fact, only a Christian would feel enough authority over the holiday to declare that it is not Christian.
To think that Christmas is for everyone is tantamount to Americans who think that everyone says bathing suit for the thing you wear to go swimming. In fact, the British say “swimming costume” but you’d never know that if you only hang around Americans. The smaller your frame of reference the more convinced you are that the way you do things is the way everyone does things.
2. “Stop complaining! You get an extra day off from work.”
I don’t want a day off on Christmas. It’s a great day to work. No one calls. No one interrupts me. And in many workplaces there’s great camaraderie in the office on Christmas because only a few people are there, and they all have something in common: They don’t celebrate Christmas.
I want a day off for Yom Kippur, which I usually have to take a personal day for. Why do I have to take a personal day for Yom Kippur but no one has to take a personal day for Christmas? This is not equal treatment for religious groups.
3. “Christmas is about good cheer. Focus on that and lose your bad attitude.”
I know I have a bad attitude. But consider that the fact that good cheer is mandated in December is also a Christian trope. For example, Thanksgiving is the holiday that makes a lot of sense to surround with good cheer. It’s about gratitude. Makes sense that we’d focus on Thanksgiving.
And the idea that we add Hanukkah to the mix is ridiculous. Hanukkah is about a war victory. The good cheer mandates are not coming from the Jews except in a sort of peer pressure way to cope with the Christian insistence that we all be happy because the Christians are happy.
4. “You can also take a day off for Hanukkah.”
First of all, Hanukkah is eight days. Second of all, the holiday isn’t a big deal to us, except that it’s a way for Jewish kids to not feel outgunned in the gift category. Jacob Sullum wrote in Reason magazine last year, “It is inappropriate…to make such a fuss over Chanukah, a minor Jewish holiday whose importance has been inflated in the popular imagination by its accidental proximity to Christmas.”
So look, we don’t want a day off for Hanukkah. Or any other Jewish holiday. We want floating holidays that everyone uses, for whatever they want. It doesn’t have to be religious, or it can be. But we don’t need our work telling us when to take time off. It’s insulting and totally impractical.
5. “We get Christmas off at work because this is a Christian country.”
People actually say this to me. Every year. I’m not kidding. People tell me that I should move to Israel if I don’t want to celebrate Christmas. Really.
I tell you this so that you understand what it’s like to be a minority. The majority of the country is not New York and Los Angeles, and the majority of the country thinks Christmas is actually sanctioned by the government. For example, my son’s public school in Madison, Wisconsin has the kids make a December calendar that includes the birthdays of four saints. Surely this is illegal mixing of church and state, but I don’t hear any complaining from parents.
People want tolerance and diversity but they are not sure how to encourage it. There is a history of tolerance starting first in business, where the change makes economic sense: Think policies against discrimination toward women, and health insurance that includes gay partners. Tolerance and awareness in the workplace reliably trickle down to other areas of society.
So do what you can at work, where you can argue that tolerance and diversity improve the bottom line, and you will affect change in society, where tolerance and diversity give deeper meaning to our lives.
As a Christian pastor, I agree that calling the US a Christian nation is not only bad for diversity, it’s bad for Christianity because the statement is false and it is often used to justify very selfish behavior on the part of Christians. To me, it’s disappointing that Christmas has become such a cultural holiday. Frankly, I’d rather see the gift exchange on New Year’s and have it transcend religion, plus then we could give Christmas back to faith.
great column–here here–while the us is not a christian nation, actually Christmas is sanctioned by our government–state offices are closed, universities are closed, post offices are closed–interesting that Blockbuster is open though??
I agree with the floating holidays idea–sometimes i don’t have anything to do on a particular holiday since work schedules (my brother in law the nurse for instance) has to work on those days and we schedule gatherings on other days before or after–but i have to take a vacation day to be there–if you are allowed to not use the holiday it never seems as though you get to use it–ever
i applaud you for having the chutzpah to address this issue, knowing that you will catch flak–keep discussing issues like this–we need to think about these things!
OMG, this is the first time I have to say it: Penelope, you ARE stupid.
If you say that “The only people who think Christmas is not religious are the Christians.” then I am pretty sure you’d agree: “The only people who think Christmas is religious are the Jews.”
Come on!
You forgot one:
6. America is a Christian nation and you need to learn to respect our traditions and values, even if you don’t subscribe to them yourself. Freedom of religion isn’t the same as freedom FROM religion.
I have noticed quite a few liberal delusions in this blog (there was some nonsense about “peak oil” a day or two ago, and this “diversity” business is way over the top). Perhaps it’s time to change your outlook on life? It’s obvious that the constant left-wing negativity is taking a toll on your relationships.
From my point of view (long time reader of Mrs. Trunk’s column; a Catholic Christian, raised in a Catholic country; economist by profession) this article is author's personal opinion and should be read "as is" so all references about stupidity, religiousness, etc. are inapt.
However there are few Mrs.Trunk’s "mistakes in logic"…
1) Office diversity undermined by celebrating Christmas is just not the proper/right thesis.
That is just as same as stating that celebrating Mother's or Father's day (btw, we don't have much of that where I live) is hampering "family diversity".
With such thesis, being the first few lines read, the only thing undermined is the article severity.
2) "The story" behind Christmas (which, btw, also has roots in pagan rituals; just as Easter) must be differentiated from "the story" of other holidays.
"Christmas hype" is economy driven capitalistic exploit inflated by its accidental proximity to New Year. This could be further explained but I guess everyone gets the point – this "hype" has nothing to do with religion [and the morale of the "true Christmas story"] – and, yes, everyone is in it, equally "guilty" for it.
3) Taking the days off anytime and/or not getting the days off for Christmas is simply too far stretched argument.
a) Taking or getting the days off is as "un-team-ish" and as "non-motivating" to the peers regardless of the reason for taking or getting the days off.
b) Getting the days off anytime is more undermining factor than getting the days off at Christmas.
c) And taking the days off for Christmas is just as same as taking the days off for shopping and partying. So why the hell not get the days off.
"As a home work" :-)), the next article should be explaining how taking/getting the days off influences work teams and work motivation and how should managers cope with it.
At least that the real issue in the country where I live.
There are two times a year when being an atheist feels like having a toothache. The other is Easter.
Anyway, Happy Hanukkah to you and yours, Penelope.
Tom Jones
I am a Christian and I totally agree with you Penelope. Thanks for posting this. I’d be totally thrilled if all the non-Christians out there would stop celebrating Christmas. It has nothing to do with them. If they want to become Christians then step on down anyday, we are happy to have you, but if you just want generic Time With Family Day then how’s about asking the government to create that, instead of trying to dilute one of the most important events in Christian theology with some capitalist fantasy.
I once got dressed up in an African traditional outfit for Kwanzaa because I worked in an African American neighborhood. I grew in a Jewish neighborhood where I was the only kid not to have a Hannukah bush. I once had an employee who worked Thanksgiving, so she could have Yom Kippur off. The worst place I ever worked, there weren’t enough non-Christians to split Christmas and New Year’s. I once ran a class on multiculturalism where a guy from Arkansas said he had no culture because he was just an average American.
It is perhaps part of the innocent charm and strength of all that is good about America that some people can be so ignorant of the grand currents of human history. On the other hand, there is always the mean-spirited, narrow-minded, overly judgmental humanity that will distort and corrupt everything it sees, only ever thinking the worst.
Oi! Won’t you be freylekh and just relax?
My God, Ms Trunk… are you like this all year? So you get a few days off at Christmas? Is anyone holding those days against you? Be grateful you’re not a slave: you would have no days off at all!
I have a nice one: BUY Christmas. If all you Jews chip in, that should be a breeze, and then YOU can decide what to do with it. But I guess that won’t happen, because Jews don’t ‘chip in’.
Really, Christmas is only 2 days a year. If you want to gripe about something, then why not attack sundays in favor of the Sabbat? There’s 52 (!!) forced days off each year that you didn’t choose!
Why don’t you just try to fit in, behave like a true American and sue! As you can see, there are much more awful things to say than the 5 you mentioned.
Negative anti-Christian rant aside, I think there is more flexibility than you think, Penelope.
I have worked for 5 F500 companies in the past 15 years. With the exception of factory shut downs between christmas and new years, everyone in a non-production role has had floating holidays where working on the holiday is accepted. All that was needed to pick up the time was a short adjustment on the ‘time and attendance’ hr website, no questions asked. I have worked on Good Friday and Memorial Day, and been credited for the time allowing me to use it elsewhere.
This post made me sad. I can understand the frustration that comes with something you dislike immensely being shoved down your throat, but it still makes me sad that someone out there can so hate a holiday that I get so much enjoyment out of it, both from a secular and religious standpoint. I must say though – as a Christian, when I read or hear things like this – and I often do – I feel like the minority. That I should feel bad, ashamed or embarrassed that I enjoy this time of year and try to change my traditions and values so I don't offend you. We all have choices in life and one of the biggest choices we make is to be tolerant of others. Which is why I am tolerating this post.
Bekah said
I must say though – as a Christian, when I read or hear things like this – and I often do – I feel like the minority.
Bekah, no you don’t. You are just barely getting a tiny inkling of what people who aren’t the majority feel EVERY DAY. You are blatantly wishing that anyone who isn’t as over the moon as you are over your holiday would just be quiet and invisible and basically not live in your world.
Bekah:
That I should feel bad, ashamed or embarrassed that I enjoy this time of year and try to change my traditions and values so I don't offend you.
Selma:
I don’t want you to feel bad. I just want to hit you with a clue stick. Christmas is a lovely holiday for you people.
And Ted, I don’t know where you live, but anyone where I am would identify what you’re saying as disgusting hate speech. Or do you figure it’s okay to say the “N” word a lot too?
@Chief Talksalot
“Take THAT, Native Americans!”
Chief, if you review your history, you will see that the European invaders quickly killed or converted the Native American tribes. Although some still try to practice their historic religions, the vast majority have been converted and do practice Christianity. I have had interactions with Native American tribes in the north east and upper midwest.
Your attempt to be coy simply did not work. Please take the opportunity to view your history and culture.
I will concede that the Christian Europeans of the 14th to the 17th centuries devastated and changed Native American life. The estimated 15 million indigenous peoples were wrongly and systematically removed from the Americas for which I morn.
Hi There Miss P, this kind of reminds me of when I worked with blind people and they were constantly reminding those of us that had sight that they themselves didn’t have sight, and not in a diplomatic way either.
It was constant “you don’t know what it’s like to be blind” to the point where I lost almost all respect for people who are blind, because it was always thrown in my face.
Compelling post, Penelope — way to stir the pot.
As an observant Jew (yes, I take off all of those 13 days and leave early on Fridays in the winter time), I’ve come to find that my beliefs DO have an effect on my co-workers, especially the ones who have to fill in for me when I’m at shul.
It’s not ideal, but it’s reality. It’s also reality that people in my company overwhelming celebrate Christmas, even if I don’t.
Religion in the workplace is a difficult subject, and for someone with a lot of needs, it can be a deal-breaker.
That’s just the reality of life.
“promoting acceptance of diverse backgrounds at work enriches our lives”
“Christmas does not belong in the workplace ”
Is your irony meter broken or are you that undisciplined as a writer?
PT – While I find your basic theory *somewhat* sound, your argument is lacking. My reply may sound nasty, and if it does, I truly apologize. It was not my intent at all. (Sorry so long!)
Your #1: CHRISTians DO have the authority to "dictate" what CHRISTmas is and what it isn't. However, you are correct in one aspect: Christmas is NOT for everyone. If you don't like it, just don't celebrate it. In fact, be sure to show up to work on Christmas day to show how much you hate it.
Your #2: Have you ever asked your employer if you could work on Christmas day in exchange for getting a day off for Yom Kippur? I'm guessing the answer is, "no." If this was really a huge issue, wouldn't you find an employer willing to work with you? I would. In fact, may I suggest a Jewish company or one of those who “promote diversity?”
Also, you ask, "Why – no one has to take a personal day for Christmas?" A: Because the company is already closed for Christmas. You don't have to take a personal day to be off on Sunday if your office is closed on Sundays, do you? I mean, if your office was open on Christmas, you *would* be required to take a personal day.
Your #3: "I know I have a bad attitude." Then why would your company work with you to implement any of your ideas, religious in nature or not? Why not show your employer how the change would benefit the organization instead of having a bad attitude for 6 weeks out of the year?
Your #4. You don’t want off for “any Jewish holiday?” Refer back to #2: “I want a day off for Yom Kippur.” I don’t follow.
Here, you also say “WE want floating holidays that everyone uses, for whatever they want.” Who, exactly, is, “we?” You later say, “People want tolerance and diversity,” but I think the majority of ‘people’ are getting tired of this political correctness. Since when did our democratic society decide it was a good idea to punish the majority so not to offend the minority? Personally, I am not a big fan of Halloween, but I am not going to complain to (or sue) my homeowner’s association and my neighbors until all trick-or-treating comes to an end in my neighborhood or my city. Why? Because I realize I am in the minority. I respect the majority’s right to celebrate what I consider a silly holiday.
Q: Do you know why so many companies have failed to even attempt to implement a “floating holiday” environment, eliminating “company” holidays altogether?
A: It wouldn’t work. Why would [insert your company name here] want to pay you come to work on [insert evil “Christian” holiday here] when, as you mentioned, no one calls, few people are working, etc? What company would want such a poor ROI?
Your #5: It sounds like your co-workers first offered several suggestions to help you get over your bitterness. ("Stop complaining! You get an extra day off from work," “Christmas is about good cheer. Focus on that and lose your bad attitude," “You can also take a day off for Hanukkah," etc.) They later decided it was a losing cause, telling you, “We get Christmas off at work because this is a Christian country," or something mean like that. However, let’s think about this statement. It is really incorrect? The U.S. citizens are so PC, they say things like “the U.S. was founded on ‘religious’ freedom, so our citizens could be free to be ANY ‘religion,’ be it Christian, Jew, atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, et al." If this is correct, I would like you to name ONE of our founding fathers who was not a Christian. Is it any wonder why the U.S. celebrates CHRISTmas?
You then go on to state opinions and guesstimations as facts, causing your credibility to take a *serious* blow. (“The majority of the country thinks Christmas is actually sanctioned by the government” and “businesses that promote diversity have more profits in the long run than companies that do not.”) Where did you get either of these "facts?" I have been a business man for more than 20 years. I have a B.B.A, with a major in Business Management. I have been to countless seminars and trainings, read numerous books, etc. Yet I have never heard of how promoting diversity increases profits. What a well-kept secret! I’m not saying it’s a bad idea; in fact, I like it. I just cannot think of a single company which can show their increased diversity = increased profits. The two are mutually exclusive.
Let me finish by saying I think your idea may have merit. If "Christmas" truly offends those in your workplace, a “floating holiday” environment could reduce such offenses. Just remember – in order to create such a schedule, ALL holiday time must be "floating." E.G., the company cannot close for 4th of July (as we cannot offend non-Americans who work for us), Thanksgiving (another American holiday), Memorial Day or Veteran’s Day (let’s not offend our anti-war co-workers), New Year’s Day (we may have those who use a different calendar), Labor Day (who wants to work, anyway?), Columbus Day…
no one is stopping you from working on christmas day …
youre advocating tyranny of the minority … there are real problems for minorities .. racism, social injustice, profiling, and the rest ..
being offended by a holiday that the majority enjoy trivializes the situation of minorities.
your attempt at “diversity” actually does more harm to minorities than good.
could one not say you are being intolerant of christmas ?
Penelope – these people are nuts. i feel exactly the way you do – except I have an additional complication. I married a christian, so now i have a tree in my own house. at the same time that i complain to the director of my kids school that they should not have that christmas tree, and that they need to take it down. try explaining all that to the kids.
this is not tyranny of the minority, it is, as you say, that xmas is so pervasive that people don’t realize how intrusive it is.
Penelope,
THANK YOU for having the courage to write something like this, knowing that the ignorant masses would flame you to a crisp.
You hit the nail right on the head about what it feels like to be someone who does not celebrate Christmas. So many of the comments here just do more to illustrate your points. I have found that there are folks who just don’t get it, and there’s pretty much nothing one can do to change that. I give thanks for my friends who actually buy a single Chanukkah card to send to us when I know all of the others they sent out were pre-printed Xmas ones.
Lemony Snicket (aka Daniel Handler, a nice Jewish boy) has written a wonderful little book that you have to read. It’s called “The Latke that Couldn’t Stop Screaming, A Christmas Story.” It is all about what you wrote.
Keep on keepin’ on, P. You just won me over as a new reader.
oh and one more thing…
let’s just be clear that penelope (and the rest of us who agree with her) is not advocating the end of christmas.
anyone who wants to is welcome to celebrate christmas in their own home, in their friend’s homes and at their church. no one is trying to stop the celebration of christmas! we just want it celebrated in it’s rightful places (i.e. not work, school, banks, city hall etc.).
AaronBrown72, it’s obvious you haven’t kept up. The Fortune 500 companies with the most diverse boards have the highest levels of performance in the market, while the ones with the least diversity have the lowest levels. That study just came out.
White males are a minority. Heck, everyone’s a minority. Get used to it. The largest minority are white women. If we’re going to base everything on the size of the group, why aren’t more women running things? There are more women in the world, in every race, than men.
Back to the topic: Penelope’s got a lot of years of having a holiday she doesn’t celebrate shoved down her throat. Happily, she apparently hasn’t suffered too much, unlike some people who have ended up losing jobs because they don’t participate in all the holiday gifting and celebrating, since, obviously, they don’t fit in and should find someplace else to work.
This country was set up with the idea that anyone should be able to live anywhere safely and happily, that they could worship openly and work at a trade they chose. The people who comment that she should move, find another job, etc. should really move out of the U.S. My ancestors (apologies to the American Indians they displaced) fought and died to create and keep a country with these freedoms. Frankly, if you don’t like it, you are the ones who are more than welcome to leave.
I agree with James Jordan “there are real problems for minorities .. racism, social injustice, profiling, and the rest ..
being offended by a holiday that the majority enjoy trivializes the situation of minorities.
”
…To reiterate, someone trying to spread “Christmas cheer” with the best of intentions is hardly oppression of a minority.
If you don’t celebrate Xmas, I can see it being annoying as most of us are extremely over the top about it and Hallmark and Macy’s have turned into a 30 day holiday ala Ramadan. But seriously, you all need to get over yourselves. No one is oppressing you by having a Christmas tree in a school, its not like they are forcing Jewish children to say a Christian prayer or something.
I guess us “ignorant masses” aka the 70-80% of people in the country who celebrate Xmas, should just tear down all the Xmas decorations and piously celebrate in our own homes to avoid hurting anyone’s feelings.
Honestly, Penelope, you sound extremely intolerant in this article. You insinuate that Christians are so obnoxious, that they feel the need to determine whether or not Christmas is Christian. Well… who else would you want determining that??? Would I, as a Chirstian, get to determine how Jewish Yom Kippur is??? Probably not!
Christmas, for me, is both religious and not religious. I don’t consider the Santa Claus part very religious, but I do consider Christmas Eve (when the birth of Christ is celebrated) religious, and we go to church and celebrate quietly and reflectively at home without presents. Christmas morning is Santa time–not particularly religious, but lots of fun for the kiddos. It’s really what you make of it. I think I would probably celebrate is in a secular fashion if I weren’t Christian.
As for holidays at work, you are overlooking the most obvious reason for observing these holidays–practicality. Imagine a public school in a very Christian community. When 90% of the teachers request the day off as one of their “floating” holidays, or even in industry, how exactly do you intend to cover these people? It’s much easier to give everyone the day off. The same goes for a Jewish community. My college gave some, but not all, Jewish holidays off. They gave Christmas off, but not Good Friday. So, everyone got a few days off, and if you wanted to celebrate a particular religious holiday that wasn’t given off, arrangements could be made that did not penalize you.
“Festivus for the Rest of Us”
To promote Diversity and a Democratic Tolerant Free Society, is not only respecting a person’s Non Religious beliefs, but also to Respect another’s Religious Beliefs.
So, you don’t like Christmas, or the Parties, then great don’t attend, and don’t go to them. That is your freedom of choice and expression.
But, at the same time, are you not trying to take away My freedom of choice or religious beliefs by advocating your secular views?
There are more individuals who appreciate the focus of the holidays. So, then, should not our wants or desires matter, or are You suggesting that the Minority should win the vote here?
Hi P:
Whew, what an interesting discussion.
I appreciate the way you speak – clear, direct and without sugarcoating. Where others found you “grumpy” “negative” or “bitchy,” I just appreciated hearing how you feel about the Christmas holidays.
I respect everyone’s right to a religion, or lack of one. Having faith and love in our hearts does a lot to both treat each other with respect and make it through the rough patches of our lives. I agree with keeping faith separate from our official working lives. As I get to know work colleagues, I like hearing about their personal beliefs, religious or otherwise. But I respect that all are different, and think the idea of floating holidays is a good one.
And, being married to a Navajo man, I have to agree with the comments about Thanksgiving. It is wonderful to have a day to step back and be grateful for what we have. But the lore of pilgrims and indians sitting down at a table as equals with mutual respect is not true to history. After native people shared their food, knowledge of the land and hunting techniques with new settlers, they found themselves isolated, alone and without land. The process of removing their land from them was neither legal nor admirable. Everything from giving them disease-laden blankets to introducing alcohol was used to systematically destroy them.
Despite this, most native people, including my husband’s family, celebrate Thanksgiving in the spirit of family and gratitude. I like to think it speaks to the power of forgiveness and grace. But to see Thanksgiving as a non-controversial holiday is missing the experience of a significant population of the U.S.
This is why the whole issue of illegal immigration really burns me up. If we are true to history, those like me of European descent have to own up to our own “illegal immigrant” status, though a few generations removed. But that is another rant for another day.
This whole conversation, including your post and all the responses just make me think: just because someone has a different view than mine doesn’t mean they are attacking me. So your description of what it felt like to be Jewish during Christmas wasn’t an attack on Christians. At least how I read it.
I’m not sure why everyone has their tights in a bunch.
Penelope is just advocating for a set number of paid-time holiday hours to each person to use as they wish. What is wrong with that? What is wrong with Bob taking off Yom Kippur and Joe taking off Christmas, and Sue taking off Yule? Or Jen taking none of them off and getting a free day to do what she wants?
Why does having a religious belief make you any better than any other employee and have right to paid time off for special reasons?
Those of you out there exclaiming that no one is stopping her from working on Christmas are wrong. Most businesses close on Christmas (and other major holidays), which means they don’t turn on the heat, don’t turn on the lights, and make it difficult to come in and work. Unless you can work from home, you aren’t going to get access to your work building on major holidays.
I want one of you to try and go to work on a freezing December 25th in the Midwest and see how long you keep from cursing the holiday.
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution states that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The phrase building a wall of separation between church and state was written by Thomas Jefferson in a January 1, 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association. However, the First Amendment has been long associated with the Separation of Church and State.
I have to ask – what is so wrong about keeping them separate? Church certainly doesn’t want State involve – they’d have to pay taxes (Christians, Jews, Hindis, whatever).
I don’t understand what makes these people (mostly Christians? I don’t know) so sensitive. No one is telling you that you HAVE to work on Xmas. No one is telling you not to celebrate your holidays. All the suggestion is that the workplace become a place where everyone is allowed to express their own beliefs and desires through use of paid-time off. How can this be so hard to accept?
I also find it terribly interesting (or sad) how the fact that Penelope is Jewish seems to elicit more ire. What if she had said she was Hindi? Or Pagan? Or Agnostic? Would the responses be the same?
Freedom of Religion means Freedom for ALL Religions.
Yes! And I want pregnancy leave even though I never will be pregant and I want sick leave even though I never get sick. And I want extra days off because my co-workers take extra days off for their kids.I want personal phone time because my co-worker take personal time talking to the schools about their kids.
Grow up. Life isn’t always fair, is it?
@Selma: you clearly have no clue what I was saying there. Well, I don’t believe you’ll ever get it, but I’ll try to enlighten you anyway:
The only point I’ve tried to make (check the last line of my previous post) is that there are far worse things to say than the 5 remarks Ms Trunk is getting so worked up over. Apparently, YOU need that lesson as much as she does. So here you will have it: N-WORD, N-WORD, N-WORD (whatever the F-WORD that may be).
In my opinion, EVERYONE should be free to live whichever way they wish, as long as they don’t limit the freedom of their fellow humans. That has nothing to do with religion, the color of your skin, your gender, your sexual preference or where you live, because we’re all humans living on the same planet that we should equally share.
That’s a lesson that is toughest for Americans. They all think they’re so great… and see, the great all have a shrink, they can’t manage without. And they all need a manual to SPECIFICALLY say that they shouldn’t dry their pet in a microwave, or they will try to do it, and then sue the company that forgot to mention this.
Guess what, you’re only human, nothing more or less than anyone else. And rest assured: I will not bother anyone on this blog again: it’s not worth it to me.
Penelope:
Thanks G-d for your keen observations about the difficulty of dis-engaging from insidious influence of Christendom. I was severely chastised and penalized in my consulting career by trying to bow out of the “holiday” festivities. My statement of, “I am sorry, I do not observe this holiday, even in it’s secular aspects, such as Secret Santa, etc.’
I always wish people well, and bow out. Although the Indian holiday of Devali was enjoyed by most of the lab, the silicon valley network would not let poor AW live down the refusal to trim company tress and give cheap gifts.
I am not a grumpy man, I just don’t want to be dragged into a holiday that is poisoning the air with a minimally corrupting influence – not just of cramming the birth of a renegade Jew down my Jewish throat, but in subtly denying the true issue of my holiday:
That true miracles come through the agency of the ordinary man or woman, as a direct manifestation of he divine allowing us to triumph over evil.
A great miracle happened here, Penelope.
The more I think of this, the more I realize that Penelope is right. Holidays? Any of them, who needs them! Seriously, America is made up and founded of Diversity, and Emigrants right? So why should any of us be
forced to take Thanksgiving, or Labor Day off? And what about this thing Called 4th of July? And do We REALLY need to celebrate Columbus Day? I mean, he really didn't found the U.S correct? Shouldn't we give those people who landed on Plymouth Rock more celebrity status.. And by the way, exactly which president are We celebrating on President's day??
And How Dare they consider shutting down the Banks, Post Offices and Government Institutions and Civil Service for that guy who helped found that thing Called Civil Rights Movement.. Why should a non Disabled, white male care about Martin Luther Day anyways? Don't they realize the problems that having the Banks and post office closed causes the workforce???? I am also sure that the American Indians, the Original Natives of America really would prefer the United States considered their perspective of Thanksgiving, And who knows, next there may even be a holiday for that other guy, what's his name? Chavez something or the other???
Ah, be darned.. I don't understand Halloween either – why would a grown man/woman want to play dress up and act goofy, it really irritates me… let's get rid of that holiday too.. I can't bare to even consider seeing another Orange Cookie again.. and hopefully they won't have any peanuts.. No, though I am not allergic, because the few are, we should not allow Anyone to enjoy them at all..
Okay, as a multiracial, traditional Christian, all of this was said tongue in cheek, but with the hope that displays that we in America embrace all of what makes America. Whether that be Jew, Christian, Moslem or even Atheist – The different countries, religions, and beliefs that Make this wonderful country ours. Freedom of Religion Does indeed play a part of the founding of this country, just as the Freedom to choose Not to celebrate a religious belief.
What is my only gripe, is – why take away something that the Majority of the Population enjoys, or even Cherishes, because the Minority has a problem with it? The last time they tried that with Prohibition, they found out it really didn't work..
Actually many may not be aware, but in the 17th Century, Christmas was Cancelled in England.. it was thought to be a heathen holiday by the puritans. Didn't last long though.. In America, Christmas was outlawed in Boston for about 20 years, and during the Civil War, the South and North were divided in regards to the holiday. The North considered it to be a sin.. A pagan holiday. For Sure, Santa, Swathing ones home with Wreaths, and colored lights, and materializing the spirit of Xmas with Gifts and many of the many decorations we utilize.. indeed is not in light of Christianity. In fact, Christmas has never really been a holiday of Religion and one would never find a reference to it in the bible.
Today, a National Survey Scripps Howard News Service and Ohio University. has revealed that 9 out of 10 People in America do not consider Christmas to be a religious holiday but more a Holiday of Community
So, if we are to ban the xmas holiday due to the word Christ-mas.. I can think of a few other words I could think of that should also be considered lethal.. Guys, maybe you can relate — Um – how about men- opause, or Pre- Men-strual cycle, what about Men-tal illness, and the HISterectomy; and would the French, Spanish and other languages stop differentiating Nouns by gender distinctions .. IE – le, la, Un, une! And indeed explain why is a Chair a female, and a car male?
Okay, I went off course.. but, gee, how ridiculous do we get in the states? To begrudge many of the people who Actually enjoy a holiday once in a while.. the opportunity to have one, because we don't agree with it.
anyways, why can’t we just live and LET LIVE!! If we could all just get along… ah.. well its CHRISTmas, so I guess I am gonna rub my angel on the tree, hang some more mistletoe, drink a bunch of Eggnog, and prove to everyone that Flying Reindeer Do Exist all in the Spirit of Peace!
Karen M
Penelope…(and whomever else might read this)
On behalf of all Christians,
WE ARE TERRIBLY SORRY.
Please forgive us for rudely imposing our religion, (sub)culture, traditions, presuppositions, lexicon, calendar, and miscellany upon others.
I mean that with sincerity. ALL sincerity.
I am ashamed that people claiming to be Christians are intolerant, and ignorant of the small size of their frame of reference.
It’s like a form of autism in how we repeatedly fail to see the OTHER’S viewpoint.
Which in the case of Christmas is entirely retarded: considering that Christians hijacked a pagan holiday in ‘the name of the Lord,’ yet so little about this time of year has much to do with recognizing the person and teachings of Jesus.
And that Jesus was likely born in the Spring as we Westerners know it, when we remember Jesus’ death, not his birth, yet continue to mix metaphors into a weird, white, American holiday-casserole of eggs, lilies, rabbits, crosses, chocolate, and of course, empty tombs.
I pray you and others accept my apology, albeit a feeble one.
And dear GOD, please pray for us. We Christians do try, overall. And there are a growing number like myself who’ve chosen to stop behaving so badly unaware.
In the meanwhile, we beg of your mercy, and for you to show us by example what tolerance means…I promise, some of us will learn.
Peace be with you. Deep peace.
Eric Nentrup
I’d love to see the workplace be more secular. If anything, just because on holidays maybe one or two stores or restaurants might be open. What a pain in the ass.
As far as kids at the public schools in Madison. Holy crap, what school does your son go to? Having religious stuff on on a calendar the kids make is totally against district policy. Odds are you have a christian teacher that is totally overstepping their bounds.
My two kids bring home calendars they make and other stuff from Madison schools all the time and it is always secular in nature. If you were to say something I’m sure you would find there are many parents that agree with you, christian or not.
The only annoying crap we get is the junk mail the district allows outside groups to send home with the kids as long as it has the “this is not a MMSD sanctioned event” blurb on it.
Should I leave a comment when there are so many already?
1. This made me laff:
>
My good friend says that to me all the time. Okay, Valentine’s Day and Halloween are no longer strictly religious or even Christian holidays but Christmas is.
2. I, too, believe very strongly in the separation of church and state. I don’t think Starbucks should start playing Christmas songs on November 8th.
3. However, most of the people in Canada are Christian. It’s a country that was started by Christians. Everyone else came after.
And as long as I am recognized as an equal by other Canadians, I think that there’s something wrong with making diversity oppressive by trying to quash the pleasant tradition of 90% of the population.
I mean what are the problems listed here? Having to take off Christmas Day and having to tolerate a Christmas party? That’s not so bad.
Having your children study the saints of another religion is something different but that’s not at work.
I went to a non-religious, publicly funded university which has always had a significant number of Jewish students so it called off classes during the Jewish high holidays. Was it so awful? A Jewish professor is agitating to have this policy cancelled.
THIS MADE ME LAUGH (FROM ABOVE)
“The only people who think Christmas is not religious are the Christians.”
My friend says this to me all the time…[continued above]
I want a day off on Christmas but will make it a point invite my non christian friends to my home.
All I can say is that I feel so sorry for you, you sound such a bitter person, that I don’t think Christmas is the only thing that “drives you nuts”, I can see, anything that is happy, “drive you nuts”. I’ll pray for you, and for all those just non-christians, for all non-believers. God may help you to find the peace you need.
Being from the UK originally, I have 2 problems with Christmas in the US: 1) too much religion, not enough booze and trifle, and 2) insufficient days off.
As for Jewish holidays, my kids are in the Montgomery County MD system, and they got Rosh Hashanah off. Mazel tov on days off, I always say!
Amen! I am back in the U.S. after 18 years in Israel and the Christmas season makes me homicidal. The radio station I listen to plays Christmas music exclusively and I’m tired of cashiers asking me if I’ve done my Christmas shopping. Commercials, print ads, tv shows are all Christmas themed. It IS a Christian holiday and we are not all Christians. I respect others’ religion and their desire to celebrate Christmas but I don’t want it shoved down my throat from November 1st.
Well, you got my engine going.
Sorry for the long rant but you started it. (Oops now the English students will be after me)
Let’s start with “diversity” or the more recent PC terminology of “inclusion”. It does seem everyone who screams the loudest about the need for diversity or inclusion are the very ones who are compelled to tell other people to shut up or “stop cramming your belief down my throat”. Hmm. Pot calling the kettle a darker than plain color not to be spoken (don’t want anyone after me on this one).
Now moving on towards the concept of holiday.
You are right in the whole holiday issue. The term holiday has its origins from “Holy Day”. Back when, certain days (check your Jewish calendar for instance) were days when things are/were not to be done because of religious reasons. Sabbath may be one you know but then again, you, since you enjoy it so much, probably work on the Sabbath.
In regards to Christmas and inclusion, although Christmas is based on the birth of Christ, the actual timing of his birth was nowhere near December 25 (September sounds good). So, for all my Pagan friends who commented on or at least read the blog, in fact Christmas was originally celebrated at this time to appeal to the Pagans in order for them to have Holy Day without it being a “religious” day. Albeit, by a Pope who had influence on the Emperor who was a Pagan. Don’t believe me? Look up the origin of the decorated tree (no offense Green Peace. I have a fake one. Crap, now Al Gore will chase me) and the fact that Christmas falls in the Winter solstice, not very Christian. Concluded by Christ had one day of birth not the 12 days of Christmas. Oh, and the 3 dudes from the “East” that took longer than 12 days to arrive; last I checked was Asia or Asia Minor (pretty friggin inclusive)
Yes, the music constantly in my ear is annoying but so is traffic in the morning or a cancelled flight. But do listen to Frosty The Snowman. It has nothing to do with Christmas or religion but all to do with winter. Shhh.
From a practicality standpoint, companies plan business around time off, such as this 12/25 thingy. This has much to do with knowing when the plant will be down. Imagine trying to run a business with people taking all sorts of time off at all different times and the administration of that time. Wait, now I know why you want to work on Christmas. It is a coup to take over the company to enforce diversity. Very sly.
As for you Thanksgiving naysayers, think about the fact that it is a holiday celebrated in Puerto Rico. I mean after all, the Pilgrims landed at San Juan Rock. No, wait. Why do they celebrate this event?
For you yearly celebrants: A new year means I am getting older and it forces me to drink champagne (sorry for the AA folks out there). So, you damn well better not celebrate 1/1 or I am gonna be pissed and not feel I fit in your diversity plans for recovering seniors. Not very inclusive of you.
Sorry for this bit. Those Thanksgiving originators (Pilgrims) came here because of the Church of England. The USA is a country founded by Christians trying to escape persecution and oppression to open it up for Religious freedom for all to celebrate what they believe. So, believe as you must but don’t tell me I can’t be public with mine. The last time a Jew was told to stop, well, they hung him on a cross.
Let’s get off the high horse here because, after all, it is really only a pony you have. Damn it, now I am picking on animals. The Vegans will be after me.
Oh, how I could go on but I need prepare for Independence Day. Oops, that is so narrow minded of me for not thinking of all those people out there who have yet to experience freedom of religion, speech or plain old freedom.
p.s. If we do end up with floating days, don’t take off for birthdays. The Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t celebrate them. Wouldn’t be inclusive of you.
Diversity is not color, religion…. It is the whole and the parts of the whole that make us the people of this world. Stop beating one another over difference and get together to solve the issues that plague us all.
Don’t like Christmas day, then take it off and go help someone less fortunate. You just don’t do it in the name of Jesus, Allah, Buddha or? Do it in the name of Peace.
Yet another rant:
The term “Christian” has devolved to such an extent that those claiming the designation 200+ years ago would probably not recognize the beliefs of those claiming it today.
I am a Christian, but neither Catholic nor Protestant – so I too would be unhappy if my children came home with saints’ days noted on their calendars.
My husband and I chose not to build Santa Claus into our family celebration of Christmas. I was told I was a Scrooge and that I was stealing the “magic” of the holidays from my kids. I had no idea how hard it would be to uphold this teaching when my kids started school, or how difficult it would be to make sure my kids refrained from sharing what we taught them at home (thus ruining Christmas for their classmates).
A Christmas wreath or a Christmas party is still exactly that – whether or not you replace the word “Christmas” with “holiday”. A sign on a legal office recently stated that they would be closed for a “holiday enrichment luncheon.” How ridiculous are we willing to sound in our efforts to maintain political correctness?
If Christmas is truly the “hap, happiest time of the year,” then why do calls to suicide hotlines tend to increase this time of year?
Retailers would like us to believe that if we don’t spend more than we have on items that we don’t need, then we are individually responsible for the decline of the nation’s economy. (A local store is already displaying Valentines Day items already!) Maybe if Christmas were celebrated as a personal day instead of a legal holiday, some of the commercialization would be alleviated for all of us.
I grew up in a place where being Christian or Jewish was applied as an adjective. I am Christian, but would never characterize myself as A Christian, since that seems to be both narrow-minded and declaratory.
Kind of like the hypocrites on the street corner in Matthew.
I was one of four kids who actually showed up in school on the Jewish Holidays. That’s OK, we worked around it.I even worked around an occasion when everyone I worked with was Jewish and I couldn’t get New Year’s off.
Give me a break guys.
Judging from behavior (and the thinking that went into so many comments here) I would still assert that the best Christians I personally know, happen to be a Jew and a Muslim.
Never mind what they believe, their actions bespeak love, not decay. And I would consider lumping Penelope in there, since I suspect her purpose was to stir up trouble, drive traffic and gain notoriety. More of an atheist than a Jew, I think.
Essentially what your saying is that promoting Christmas is unprofitable because it offends Jews and Jews have all the money. While it sounds plausible, do you have any data to back it up?
Ms. Trunk,
I am also a Jew of German and Russian extraction. Honestly, I was shocked by many of the delusional comments you made here. However, I’ll only say that I regard you as the worst kind of Jew and I’d disown you if I could.
To the rest of you,
Merry Christmas
Ms. Trunk,
You are a hateful, intolerant bigot.
The good points you made are overshadowed by your ignorance which grows from the obvious anti-Christian bias you have.
You sound like a Jewish version of David Duke.
Unfortunately, I’m sure you’re proud of yourself and I wasted my time typing this post.
Diversity? Diversity? Go almost anywhere in the world today and the concept of diversity is so-called American culture; carbon copies of your malls etc. Don’t get me wrong I love that stuff but let’s not be hypocritical and talk about “diversity”.
Let’s be real folks, forget the PC; you strive for homogeny but throw a few of the silent minorities in to keep the PC mix ok.
So a Jew said something they felt personally about Christmas in terms of work holidays, imposed atmosphere and separation of religion and state. Get over yourselves. Home of the free .. my donkey!
Hmmm. . .I thought “diversity” was supposed to “enrich” our culture? Seems to me that diversity is not “enriching” — it’s destroying our culture. There are majority cultures in every nation in the world. Extremely diverse countries don’t last long. If you can’t deal with that fact, I suggest moving to a country where your culture is in the majority, or stop whining. The majority have rights too, including the right to not have their cherished traditional practices completely transformed and suppressed in order to “honor” an ever-expanding list of demanding minority cultures.
Mary J, I thought I was done with this until I saw your post.. but Darn, it really did get me quite irked. Maybe because of the fact that what you said though pompous, was extremely misinformed
Here is something that was quoted from the united Nations that may better explain why diversity IS INDEED Important to Country and Land..
“Nevertheless, it also says the need to combat discrimination at work is more urgent than it was four years ago “in the face of a world that appears increasingly unequal, insecure and unsafe”, adding that “significant and persistent inequalities in income, assets and opportunities dilute the effectiveness of any action aimed at combating discrimination. This may lead to political instability and social upheaval, which upset investment and economic growth”. These barriers to equality can prevent societies from realizing the full potential of today’s globalized economy”
“Unbelievable”, I don’t really see what your post has to do with mine. Are you arguing that those nations that are tolerant enough to take in people from many different countries and cultures — i.e. Europe, Canada, US and Australia — should be rewarded for their kindness and tolerance by having their cheristed cultural traditions destroyed, “deconstructed”, and displaced? If so that’s a good argument for adopting the immigration policies of China and Japan, i.e. no immigration, period. I think “minorities” who deliberately emigrate to a majority culture and then demand all kinds of special favors and concessions from the majority are selfish and unreasonable. They freely CHOSE to become a “minority” (and I’m not counting black Americans and Native Americans here) so why complain about the fact that they are minorities? Again, why should countries that are tolerant enough to provide opportunity to all sorts of people from all over the world, be punished for their tolerance by being stripped of their long-standing cultural traditions? Answers in clear logical sentences please, not multi-culti platitudes.