We have been together for fifteen years and we have two kids. We have been in couples therapy enough different times for me to know that I hate being in couples therapy with him because he never changes. It's always been more productive for me to go to therapy alone, where at least I can get things done. But now we are desperate, so I've capitulated.
We park the car and walk into the building of the couples' therapist. I remember one couples therapist telling us that we are in good shape because we drove there together. Today I know that we would have driven in separate cars if we had two cars.
I delegated finding a therapist to my husband. After all, my first book just came out and I blog almost every day. I am busy. I know my penchant for delegating is part of the problem, but I thought this would be one last hurrah.
We get to the office. The sign on the door says "Divorce Law Offices" and there is a list of people with Esq's at the end.
I say, "We're going to a divorce lawyer? I don't want a divorce."
"It's Wisconsin," he says, "It's not like New York City where there are skyscrapers devoted to therapist offices."
We see a mediator.
I start talking. I tell him we are not there to get a divorce. We're there to keep our marriage together. Is there someone else we can see?
My husband says he's thinking he might be there to get a divorce.
I see we are a parody of a couple who cannot communicate. When I was doing research for a column about divorce law, I talked with a lot of divorce lawyers, and each one said that so many divorces could be avoided if the people would talk. One attorney told me he helps one couple a month get back together, and that's his favorite part of his job. I tell myself, based on this, that divorce lawyers are good at keeping marriages together because they see so many marriages fall apart.
We talk about our marriage. I think things are difficult because my husband gave up working to take care of our kids and it didn't work out.
My husband thinks things got bad because taking care of our son who has autism is extremely difficult and we take it out on each other so we don't take it out on him.
There is truth to what my husband says. Eighty percent of parents who have a child with autism get a divorce. But I don't want to blame my failing marriage on my cute little five-year-old. Not that I don't want someone to blame. I do. But I think it is more complicated than that.
I explain how my career is going great. I tell the mediator I have a busy speaking schedule and a six-figure contract for my next book. I even talk about my blog, and the estimated 450,000 page views a month, even though you can trust me on this: Our divorce mediator from Middleton, Wisconsin does not read blogs.
At this point, I think my husband is going to tell the mediator about how he gave up his career for the kids and me and he is totally disappointed. But instead he says to me, "A lot of people I talk with say that I am being abused by you."
I am shocked. It's a big allegation. But I say, "A lot of people I talk with think I should get rid of you."
That's as bad as it gets, right there. Because the mediator interjects and says that if you want to try to stay together for the kids, it's worth it. He says, "The research shows divorce is very hard on kids, and especially kids under five." But he adds, "You won't be able to hold things together just to parent the kids. You will need some love for each other."
I say quickly that I have that. It is easy for me to remember how much fun I had with my husband before we had kids. It's easy for me to remember that every time I look-but-don't-really-look for men to have an affair with, I find myself looking at someone who is like my husband: I still love him.
My husband is not so quick to say he still loves me.
So all I can do is think while he thinks. I think about the research about how a career does not make people happy. When you are in love and someone asks you how you are, you say, "I'm so happy" even if you are unemployed. When your career is going well and your marriage isn't when someone asks you how you are you say, "My career is going great."
The mediator starts talking about how the next step will be a contract to follow rules of engagement. "You have to start being nice to each other," says the mediator. Right now that seems almost impossible.
We have to wait, though. My husband is deciding if he has any love for me.
He asks the mediator, "How do I know if it's love?"
The mediator says, "If you care about her life, for right now, that's enough."
Finally my husband says to me, "I'm so sorry that life is not better for you when your career is going so well. You've worked so hard for this."
The mediator nods. Next meeting we will move on to the rules of engagement.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Other posts on this topic:









Good Luck, I hope you see some light.
Interestingly the wife and I come from completely different back grounds. While I was a party animal and living with different women, she was married and raising three daughters at 21. But it's been 11 years together now and three step daughter later and it's going great. Why? We share the same core values, we communicate no matter how hard, and I try to understand her feelings instead of words. We have sacrificed much for our website start ups in time and money. But we love it. She is the best thing that hs happened to me.
Terry
Posted by Terry on 07/05/2007 at 12:33pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
You're brave, Penelope, to share as much as you do. Negotiating kids and work is barely manageble some days, and keeping a marriage alive seems to turn into a third priority for so many of us. Thanks for the kick ass post, and I hope you both get what you need out of this.
Posted by Meaghan on 07/05/2007 at 12:45pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
I don't have any advice for you because I don't know you or your situation and would never even THINK of trying to counsel you. I offer my hope and kind thoughts that you and your hubby can work everything out.
Best Wishes, and an e-hug!
Posted by Ed F. on 07/05/2007 at 12:50pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Wow, I do not think I could ever be so public or candid about my life. I sat at my desk and cried while I read it. My wife and I are struggling to stay together, are in counseling, and want to stay together. And it is really, really hard.
I just want you to know i am pulling for you and your family.
Love and prayers.
Posted by Greg on 07/05/2007 at 12:51pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I hope you get through this difficult time, Penelope, with your marriage and sanity intact.
This is one of those instances,though, in which my pre-Internet Yankee upbringing makes me want to urge you strongly to take this discussion OFFLINE. This post may get 450,000 page views this month and will be Google cached forever.
One of the bedrocks of counseling is its confidentiality. I'm not sure what happens when one partner gets to reveal very private details in a very public forum.
I'm sure you've thought about this. But if it were my marriage, I would think about it again.
* * * * * * *
Hi, Mike. Thank you for your concern. Whenever I write about problems in my marriage, the men get worried for my husband. And this is what I always say: That when my husband met me I was writing my master's thesis about my sex life. In real time. So he knew what he was getting into, and he is used to it after fifteen years.One of the reasons I'm a writer, maybe the biggest reason, is because life is pretty lonely, and I want to be doing life with other people — as part of a community. When I started writing about my life at work, I honestly felt like I was the only person in the world who thought the workplace was totally nuts. And I found out, by writing a column, that lots of other people sat at their desk sometimes just laughing at what's going on around them. Writing about work made me feel less lonley in the world. There are people like me.
And the same is true about marriage. Marriage is very hard, and at time, very lonely. Marriages are intimate, but isolated from each other, because people don't talk about it very much. Why is there tons of chatter about what people want to talk about after mind-blowing sex but there is not a lot of chatter about what to talk about when you leave the mediator's office?
I think it'll be good for everyone if we talk more about marriage and how to keep it together. I am doing it becuase I want to be part of a community that does that.
Frank conversation allows us to all help each other — not just about how to have great sex, or how to get a great job, but also how to have a great marriage.
Penelope
Posted by Mike Berry on 07/05/2007 at 12:52pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I do hope this all works out for you and your family. I wish I had some magic cure-all advice, but, obviously, I don't.
Sacrifice, compromise and forgiveness are hard things to achieve. One party usually feels they've done more than the other. Which, of course, may or may not be true. They do need to be talked about…sometimes all at once. Other times in bits and pieces over time.
I'm not pushing a book, but "The Good Life"
by Jay Mcinerney, delved into this and it was a painful, but ultimately rewarding novel about love, marriage and sacrifice. This book made me think about marriage in a different way.
I think marriage is noble and worth fighting for to keep it from breaking apart. I'm very lucky. My wife and I have been together for 17 years and we're still in love and love to make each other laugh.
Again, I wish I had some wonderful advice–Just keep working at it and the right answer, I hope, will eventually reveal itself.
Posted by Tim on 07/05/2007 at 01:00pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
I'm sorry to hear that things are…not well and I do hope for the best for you, your husband and your kids. You are quite brave to share so publicly what you are going through. However, I would agree with Mike Berry (post just above) to take this "off-line" – at least until things are settled between you and your husband. You may want to revisit the idea of sharing things again.
Prayers.
Posted by Hans on 07/05/2007 at 01:04pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
“A lot of people I talk with think I should get rid of you.”
Rarely are people in an appropriate position to accurately make such a pronouncement.
Good luck to you & your husband, rarely is the grass greener.
Posted by lee on 07/05/2007 at 01:08pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I commend you on your candor here. It's very brave of you. I would, however, agree with previous commenters and suggest you consider not going public any further with this. If I were going through something like this and I knew my wife would be publishing my comments and actions to so many people — some of whom must know you and your husband personally — I would not feel as free to express myself as I otherwise would, and a lack of free expression seems to be at the heart of this.
Whatever details you do decide to share with us, I will follow with interest and concern, and hope the best for you both.
* * * * * *
I sense a theme in the comments here.
Hi, Ted. I noticed that your URL is the storytellersworkshop.com. (I remember you from other comments — I've been to your blog.) I want to point out that one of the best things about storytelling is that we make sense of our lives by telling our stories to other people. Herminia Ibarra does great research in this area, and she found that people were most secure in where they are in life if they can tell stories about themselves that make sense to other people. As a writer, this really resonates with me. I am not a fan of public and private. I have found that things that I thought would be really bad to say publicly haven't actually been bad at all. It's just being real. We are so used to the EXPERTS never revealing anything messed up in their lives that we think that's how it has to be. I think that striving to be authentic is most important. And it would be totally inauthentic of me to write all the time about how important family is and how careers need to leave room for family and then not reveal that I am struggling with it myself. The career equation is definitely part of the problem with my family. It's important to write about that on a career blog if I am going to be real here. And if I'm not going to be real, I can't be here. It's too stressful to be something other than real.I am certain that this is a part of me that my husband values. We will pull through this bad part in our life. And part of the reason we will is because both of us are totally straight shooters. At home, in the mediator's office, and on the blog.
Penelope
Posted by Ted Slampyak on 07/05/2007 at 01:20pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Based on the post, I wonder if your husband would have a different perspective. Especially the last part: "So he knew what he was getting into, and he is used to it after fifteen years."
Posted by Frank on 07/05/2007 at 01:27pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'm sorry this is so damn hard. I hope it gets easier and happier sometime soon.
Posted by dawn on 07/05/2007 at 01:29pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I hope it turns out for the best, for you, for the kids and for your husband. I don't know what the best is, obviously.
Posted by Suze on 07/05/2007 at 01:31pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I wondered if you've ever heard of Alison Armstrong? She is a relationship guru, and I've found what she has to say very helpful.
I am not married and I don't presume to know how to make a marriage work, but I thought I would just put this out there.
I do not work for her, nor do I have any personal interest in her success, but I have found her ideas helpful.
If you're interested, her website is http://www.understandmen.com
Posted by Sandy on 07/05/2007 at 01:38pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
There are many studies recently that suggest that after a period of several years, both spouses are emotionally and financially in worse shape than when they were together. Just realize that every marriage has it's ups and downs. We are all imperfect people put together to form an imperfect union. It takes tremendous work to keep something this complex moving. It is always worth it in the end (less abuse).
Posted by Matt on 07/05/2007 at 01:49pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hope everything works out well for your family.
Posted by Sujatha on 07/05/2007 at 01:54pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope:
Thanks for your reply.
You're right, of course, about the value of being open about everything in our lives — the good and the bad. And of course, I agree completely in your comments on the importance of storytelling, of sharing narratives of moments in our lives as a way of digesting them, making sense of them, and gaining insights, both for ourselves and for others.
As for the directness of your honesty with each other — one observation that caught my eye in your post was how both of you, in one exchange, seemed to be speaking indirectly. He says people tell him you're abusing him. You tell him people say you should leave him. Does he mean HE thinks you abuse him? Do you mean YOU think you should leave him? The feelings are there implicitly, but not explicitly, instead being couched as the viewpoints of these composited unnamed "people."
I'm sure your mediator has pointed this out, or soon will. And I'm sure you don't need my advice on how to get through this. Thanks for sharing what you're going through, and again, I'll be rooting for you and your family.
Posted by Ted Slampyak on 07/05/2007 at 01:55pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
It's hard to talk about your relationships openly like this, and I applaud your ability to be honest.
I wish the both of you are able to make it continue to work, and to find that common ground on which to rebuild your relationship.
Posted by tim on 07/05/2007 at 02:07pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope if you split up you're going to have to get full time help with the kids. So why not get it now and let him go back to work. My gut tells me that you're right about that being a problem. So why not see if it makes a difference now when you have almost nothing to lose.
Posted by Recruiting Animal on 07/05/2007 at 02:08pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
In my twenties, I recall a male corporate vice president advising me that “having it all” was typically not an option for women. He indicated if I wanted 1. to be a good wife, 2. to be a good mother and 3. to have a successful career that I should pick 2 out of the 3 and be done with it as this is the only way I could guarantee the good life.
I remember writing him off as a sexist pig, but the older I get and more demanding life becomes, I tend to agree with his point. It’s hard to maintain balance and be a success with all three. Not impossible, but your experience reinforces that one can suffer.
Of course, as women, it doesn’t prevent us from trying… this comment being written by someone with a partner, a career and motherhood on the horizon… all pursued with the hope that things will be good forever. No guarantees, but we can certainly try… right?
And when it doesn’t work, we get help. Smart of you to recognize and you’re incredibly authentic to share the struggle with your readers. Warm thoughts to you and your family.
Posted by Nina on 07/05/2007 at 02:10pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
My wife and I have been married 12 years, and have one child with autism and one with Asperger's syndrome. I can relate greatly to what you have written on those challenges.
You don't know me, and I only know you via your writing, but I would be willing to offer any advice I can on parenting autistic children. Our youngest child went from severely autistic to a point where he is a very happy, well functioning second grader.
Please feel free to email me. I'd like to help in any way I can.
Thank you for sharing this,
Bob
Posted by Bob on 07/05/2007 at 02:15pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'm not as modest as that guy above who said he wouldn't think of offering advice. Actually, I've got a question. You describe yourself as an action-oriented take charge person and him as a more patient and orderly thinker. Way more analytic and slower to act.
So what's the balance of power like in your house? Do you call all the shots. Or try to? Does he get a chance to have his way and say.
The other day you linked to a fight you were having about storing his bike in the kitchen and you identified the speed and approach to decision making as the major problem. Does he ever win? Or is it always a power struggle?
No answer required.
Posted by Recruiting Animal on 07/05/2007 at 02:22pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
I appreciate your honesty. In my early 20's, I spent a lot of time talking to married women. I walked away with the conclusion everyone's marriage goes through time when you'd rather not be married to each other. Some people get through it and others don't.
I have to agree with Sujatha–get away from the passive aggressive communication. My midwestern parents do that all the time. Since there are only two of them, it is really ridiculous when "somebody ate all the cookies". I became much healthier when I quit talking like that and spoke directly with people.
Maybe spring from some coaching for your husband with David Bohl since David's specialty is career/life balance and it sounds like your husband has some career stuff besides the family issues.
Posted by Heather on 07/05/2007 at 02:22pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
brave. honest. generous. inspiring
Posted by David Harper on 07/05/2007 at 02:23pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I am glad you shared this. The raw honesty of it all is an inspiration in itself. Thank you, and I hope things work out.
Posted by Rebecca on 07/05/2007 at 02:34pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Wow Penelope. I certainly hope that, together or apart, things work out for you and your family.
When your marriage is wrong, nothing else is really right. The fact that you and your husband are such straight shooters and are inclined to deal with this seems like a good thing to me.
Best wishes to you and yours.
Posted by David Wescott on 07/05/2007 at 02:39pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
He asks the mediator, “How do I know if it’s love?” The mediator says, “If you care about her life, for right now, that’s enough.” Finally my husband says to me, “I’m so sorry that life is not better for you when your career is going so well. You’ve worked so hard for this.”
A friend who is a mediator sent this to me. I do not mediate divorces OR marital reconciliations. I mediate commercial cases between businesses. I HAVE, however, been divorced from a man who did not work while I was supporting the family. It didn't work. I have, however, seen it work with other couples. To add autism to the mix is an extraordinary challenge. You seem to be good-hearted people who "love" each other, i.e., you each want what is the best for the other person as well as what's best for yourselves. The devil is in the balance etween the two. You might want to check out Kenneth Cloke's The Crossroads of Conflict, A Journey into the Heart of Dispute Resolution. You're a writer, so I'm certain you're also a reader. This book will, I promise, be an extraordinary resource for you. Best of luck to you and your family. Vickie Pynchon
Posted by Vickie Pynchon on 07/05/2007 at 02:46pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
I truly appreciate your post, and hope you and your husband reach a new level of personal and shared understanding through this experience. However, I am more intrigued with the reader reactions regarding your disclosure of such "private" information. Unless I misunderstood, most seem to be saying that making your "private" life public is in some way unfair or disrespectful to your husband, and therefore, you should stop. I think this illuminates a common misconception about how relationships should function, i.e. if something I do offends my significant other, I should stop doing it out of love and respect for the other person. I think this mindset is jaded.
I believe that we should stop compromising our own behavior in order to cause less suffering for our SO. If you stopped writing about your relationship now to make your husband feel more secure about his own behavior, this would stifle who you are and reinforce any insecurity he has about expressing himself to you. And the moment we have to stifle ourselves to make a relationship work, the moment our relationship starts to deteriorate. The only time I think I would consider compromising my own behavior for the sake of someone else is for my kids, but I don’t have kids, so I don’t have much to offer in this regard. (Note: I’m talking about not compromising on BIG issues that are truly acts of self-expression, not mundane issues such as who picks up the kids or whose family Christmas to attend this year).
Thanks again, Penelope, for your refreshing notions about privacy and publicity. I don’t think it is brave of you to write publicly about your marriage; I think it is brave of you to be yourself.
Posted by Andrea on 07/05/2007 at 02:57pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I think you're wonderful for working at turning around your marriage in a society that often opts for the easy out, and you're brave for sharing it with so many watching.
When I read things like this I always want to post the way everyone else is. But I can relate too well to this to type 20 words of obligatory encouragement. I am not qualified to give advice, but I'm going to give it anyway.
There are a lot of well-wishers, wishing vaguely for the best. I can tell you what "best" is. Stay together. It's just like finance. Marriage is your bottom line, the minimum requirement. Stay married, period. As long as you don't settle for that.
It doesn't sound like you are, settling I mean, but you make it seem a little like you are abdicating a bit of responsibility – maybe due to frustration, maybe pride… maybe arrogance? You're the only one who can know. I like your books and your articles. You're successful. You probably deserve the success. But is it likely that some of the enormous energy that has gone into your career was fuel robbed from your marriage?
I know I'm kind of making myself a target. The most common response to comments like mine is anger, probably deserved and probably more than a little from fellow posters who respect you as much as I do. No, I don't know the situation, and I probably don't know what I'm talking about. I read a blog post and made some assumptions, and I apologize sincerely if they're wrong.
But I do know that everyone has limits. If you have $10 to spend, you can't buy lunch AND go to a movie, unless you give up all of one or a little of both.
Love really is the answer, but I think most people get it wrong. Love is a choice, not an emotion. There hasn't been a single minute since we've been married that I haven't loved my wife, but I don't always *feel* like I love her.
That's why marriage takes work. Sometimes you need to behave in a way that your emotions can't support, because those feelings slip away too easilly. But there is no "trick" to it. As long as you don't give up on the marriage, and as long as you allow those feelings to return (i.e. don't block them by replacing them with negative ones), they will. They always do.
There's one other thing I want to mention – communication. A lot of people say that's the key, and in a way I think they're right. But a big part of being married is also knowing when to shut up; you can never take back something you say in anger. My wife and I learned that the hard way.
Forgive my impertinence, and in any case, my prayers are with you.
Posted by Jeff on 07/05/2007 at 03:09pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Re: your husband's comment: “A lot of people I talk with say that I am being abused by you.”
Did your husband give any permission to air the happengins between you two in the mediaiton session? One of the tenets of mediation is the confidentiality of the session.
If you have an inkling that you'd like to work on the marriage, please be careful that you aren't using your blog (and the audience that comes with it) to air your perspective about the private aspects of the relationship with your husband in a manner he can't even hope to respond to.
From his perspective, airing this out in the public manner you are can be construed as further emotional abuse, as this puts him in a powerless position. If he feels this way, then attempting to work on the marriage while the play-by-ply is being posted is counterproductive.
Posted by Greg L. on 07/05/2007 at 03:12pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
What a gift with words you have indeed. It's very open of you to share all of this publicly. Have you considered the spiritual side to all of this? I haven't seen any mention of the spiritual part of your being. Most people agree there is a spiritual part in everyone.
Hope things get better for you.
Posted by ^Lestat on 07/05/2007 at 03:19pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, I hope things turn out positively for you, whatever direction they take. I really appreciate your blog and your candor.
Posted by LRH on 07/05/2007 at 03:30pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
"because he never changes"
I didn't need to read any further. You have a big problem right there. He may have problems too, but you have too big a problem. Where's your open mind?
Posted by sarah on 07/05/2007 at 04:01pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I've been divorced for seven years, and your post reminded me of how I felt during our marriage counseling sessions. I remember being overwhelmed by the problems we were having and feeling unable to get a clearer and broader perspective on our relationship. I'm not sure whether it would have made a difference for me or not, but here are the things I wish I could have known back then.
1. You have perhaps heard the saying, "Wherever you go, there you are." While some of the problems in your marriage likely stem from your husband, there are just as likely things that you are causing. If you divorce and move on, those issues you have will go with you and will come up again in a future relationship. It's important for all of us to find out what we ourselves are doing that are detrimental to relationships and to work on improving in those areas. It can be a humbling experience to discover that problems one attributes to another person actually come from oneself. I know this from personal experience.
2. Divorce does solve some problems in the sense that you won't have to maintain a marital relationship with your husband and will be free to start a new life. However, while some of your old problems will be solved, there will also be many new problems, including arrangements for childcare, shared custody of children, establishing a blended family that might some day include new spouses for you and your ex and new siblings for your children, new holiday and vacation traditions, etc. It's good to remember that the end of a marriage doesn't mean the end of all problems.
3. Both my ex and I have found new partners. While we are both happier in our new relationships, it has been difficult for the kids even though we had a relatively amicable divorce and get along quite well now.
This isn't meant as advice in any way. I don't think that all marraiges can be saved, but there are some that can. Perhaps yours is one of those. I wish you and your family the best.
Posted by Nancy on 07/05/2007 at 04:02pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I have a 14 year-old autistic nephew, Marcus. It is my hope your marriage works out. Having a child with special needs isn't easy. My sister Karon, her twin Sharon and I are it when it comes to raising/assisting with Marcus. Are parents aren/t physically able to assist with him at this age. I wish that the resources for every autistic child aged with the child. The world is so behind. I'm glad you have a great career. I know one day, resources/curriculum for your five year-old will be great/better than what my nephew didn't receive. Several special schools in our area were established years after Marcus was already in the school system under the special ed division (which wasn't called an autism division, like now). Take care of yourselves. Life will get better, for you and your husband.
Posted by Valerie Parker on 07/05/2007 at 04:04pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I have to agree with Greg L. It's wonderful that you want to share and be real and wear your heart on your blogging sleeve, and if you are sharing YOUR thoughts and feelings, this is fine. But you are dragging your husband's thoughts and feelings out here too. Did he say that was OK? Did you even ask him?
Have you read "Born on a Blue Day" by Daniel Tammet? He is an autistic savant (mathematically speaking; he also learned to speak Icelandic in 7 days). He is intelligent and articulate and has written a book describing his childhood (in pretty good detail) as an autistic kid. It might help you understand what your son is experiencing. You can get it at Amazon. His URL: http://www.optimnem.co.uk/
Hope all works out well for you.
Posted by Marcia on 07/05/2007 at 04:10pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hi Penelope.
I love your column, you've become a bit of a hero of mine.
The question only you can answer is:
If you were the Brazen Wifeist, if being married was like having a career, what would you do?
Is there hope this will improve? How are you going to make it better? If he can't change, can you change to accept him the way he is? How many times are you going to try?
If you were going to give him a performance review what would it look like? What would yours look like from him?
Is it time to look for a better situation, even if it means being unemployed, er… I mean single for a while?
Posted by holly on 07/05/2007 at 04:11pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
You know, a couple things really jumped out at me. First and foremost, allow me to applaud the candor with which you are sharing the dissolution of your marriage.
And now, onto my thoughts:
"We have been in couples therapy enough different times for me to know that I hate being in couples therapy with him because he never changes."
Did you marry him for who he was? Why should anyone have to change for someone else? Why can't he be himself? Maybe he's not the one that needs to change.
"I delegated finding a therapist to my husband. After all, my first book just came out and I blog almost every day. I am busy. I know my penchant for delegating is part of the problem, but I thought this would be one last hurrah."
I. Me. I am busy. I am important. I am pursuing my career. I am following my dream. I thought it didn't matter if he identified this as a problem in our relationship, its what I want to do, and I'm going to do it. We can see how that's working out for you.
"It’s easy for me to remember that every time I look-but-don’t-really-look for men to have an affair with, I find myself looking at someone who is like my husband: I still love him."
No. You care deeply about him. But you don't love him. You love some concept of what you NEED him to be. There is nothing worse in the world than being needed by someone. Far better to be wanted than required. Seeking an affair should have been a telltale for you. Instead you criticize him because he doesn't change after couple's therapy.
"So all I can do is think while he thinks. I think about the research about how a career does not make people happy."
And the end of your marriage proves it.
Posted by Adrian L. on 07/05/2007 at 04:18pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Adrian L. Thank you. That needed to be said.
Posted by Marcia on 07/05/2007 at 04:24pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Wow. I think it is interesting so many people are quick to jump to the defense of Mr. Penelope Trunk without really knowing anything about the situation. Lots of concern for his privacy, and his honor, and so on. But, I'd bet the two best people to know that are in counseling. Adrian, didn't you see any tongue-in-cheek humor in Penelope's I'll have one last hurrah comment? Nancy, those observations re: divorce are exactly what keep me trying. Very cool to see….
Posted by Meaghan on 07/05/2007 at 04:30pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Meaghan – Great comment. I was just about to address the tongue-in-cheek humor. What is so refreshing about Penelope Trunk's blog is that she puts her faults right out there for our review and discussion – she does not write as if she is above her own advice. Her blunt writing style makes it obvious that she is AWARE of what she is doing and thinking, which is so important. I don't think she needs anyone to tell her that trying to change another person into what you want is a futile and unrewarding pursuit. But she is acknowledging, perhaps, that she still tries sometimes and/or she is also the one unable or unwilling to change. It's brilliant.
Lastly, why should she have to ask her husband's permission to write about her experience? This is her story, her perspective. If her husband doesn't like it, or suffers because of it, that is not something she can control. Actually, that's the most important thing I learned in high school: You can only take responsibility for your own experience. I'm certainly not encouraging NOT telling her husband (any communication is good communication at this point, I think), but I wholeheartedly disagree that she needs to check with her husband first when she writes.
Love the discourse everyone! Keep it up!
Posted by Andrea on 07/05/2007 at 04:44pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I hope you make it this far down in the comments (40 and counting…) to read what I have to say. First, your candor is wonderful – you will help thousands if not millions with what you do through this and all your other writing. Second, my wife and I nearly split 12, 13 years ago – one career exploding and two dying parents and an affair will do that. We fought back and won. How? We learned how to do everything all over again with a single minded faith in getting back to the love we had when we started. We constantly said "we were in love once" so we can be again.
We won, and that is exactly the word for it. Victory. Hard fought, gut wrenching, but oh so worth it victory. There is no more important battle than the one you are in. God Bless, Steve
* * * * * *
Hi, Steve. I got here. I read all the comments. I read all the comments every day, but today especially. I am touched by all the caring and kindness.
I like how you say that you won. This is how I know I will feel when I come out of this with my marriage in one piece. I will feel like it's a huge victory. I will jump up and down and tell people how hard I worked at this. I like that you are cheering for your own victory here. You are a good role modle for where I want to be.
-Penelope
Posted by Steve on 07/05/2007 at 04:50pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Commitment is they key to success. A marriage can work in the absence of love (although I wouldn't recomend it). Love is a choice, not an emotion. The 'in love' feeling is the emotionally warm fuzzy most people think about, but it is not love. I was a stay at home dad with our first child, and I loved it. I was great at it. I would never do it again. On a subconcious level my wife resented me for it, even though it was discussed in depth before I actually quit my job. She stopped respecting me. Men need respect more than love. She would berate me and speak to me like I were her inferior, like I was a child. She would do this in public as well as private. It took almost 7 years for her to finally admit that she did resent me for it. We did survive. Now she's the stay at home mom and we live on what I make, which is far less than what her earning potential is (she was in sales, I'm in accounting – not a CPA). Do not get a divorce. You can make this work out, and when it does, you'll love each other more than you did before the trial by fire. Try this: apologize when you KNOW beyond question that he's in the wrong. What's it going to cost you? Your pride? Pride comes before a fall. So what if he thinks he won. In a year will either of you even remember that particular fight? But what if apologizing ends the fight? Will your son be better off if you do this or if you keep fighting?
If a man offers you a gift, but you refuse it, whos gift is it then? So too can it be with insult or offense.
Peace be with you.
Posted by wayne on 07/05/2007 at 04:56pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Awesome post man. You gave me some food for thought. My wife had an affair and we are in the fire. I am a Christian man and dont believe in divorce. I too was a stay at home dad and experienced some of what you shared. Great post.
Posted by Brandon on 10/10/2009 at 11:11am | permalink | Reply to this comment
First off, best wishes for a good solution to your current problem, for what ever value of "good" works for all of you – you, your husband, and your child. From the number of comments, it is obvious you've struck a chord with your audience. My initial thought after reading your post was the same as a number of posters – perhaps this shouldn't be aired quite so publicly. However, as I read further comments, and your replies, I've modified my stance. As long as your husband is aware that you are posting about this and gets a chance for rebuttal if he feels the need, then I think you are doing us all a service. It is shocking and somewhat refreshing to see this all under bright lights, rather than whispered about in the shadows.
We just celebrated our 29th anniversary 2 weeks ago – with a trip to the ER, because she sliped and broke her fibula – how do we top that next year? ;) We often look around and ask ourselves, what are we doing right? We've never yet come up with the "right" answer. I don't think there is a magic answer – do x, y, and z and all will be fine – all I can suggest is to be as honest and open with each other as you seem to be here.
Again, best wishes.
Dave
Posted by Dave on 07/05/2007 at 05:08pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Wow.
and bless you.
Wendii
Posted by wendii on 07/05/2007 at 05:27pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Echoing what so many have already said. Once again I am floored by your honesty and frankness. The only way to deal any issue is to strip off our mask which is something that very few are able to do. I admire your candor and your willingness to strip off your mask and let the world see the things that most of us want to hide. No real advice here, just my thoughts and prayers for you and your family. You are amazing. I cannot begin to tell you how often I am inspired by you. Again today, in spite of your difficulty, I am inspired by your spirit and your willingness to meet your problems head on.
I wish you the best Penelope.
Mitch
Posted by Mitch on 07/05/2007 at 05:47pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I really do not want to be reading about your personal life when I want to read about career advise. with the 200+ feeds that I read a day, I'll drop your feed like a bad habit if this continues. Yes, I will admit that you touched a nerve in me, making my day really sour.
Give your relationship real respect, and keep it private, airing it out for your readers to see is an arrogant and a selfish move on your part. Deep and meaningful relationships need intimacy and security of their emotions (which he isn't getting from you posting this). your counseling should be just you and him only, not you, him, and hundreds of onlookers… just you and him, and that’s all if you want this to succeed.
Posted by Cornelius on 07/05/2007 at 05:48pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I have a hard time understanding why divorce is so hard on children under the age of 5. You can barely understand or even remember anything at that age – you haven't been out of the uterus that long. I'd find easier to accept that older children, even teens, have a difficult time with divorce than people two feet tall.
Posted by Mary Beth Klatt on 07/05/2007 at 05:50pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I blog about whatever the heck I want. That's the point. Anyway, I feel for you. I have a child who has struggled with the spectrum, and I know it is difficult. As a special education teacher, I see how hard it is for parents to deal with their child's behaviors, school, etc. Personally, my marriage(s) went kaput. You are a far more patient woman than I am. I would have had a fit about the misunderstanding before we ever made it in the counselor's door.
Posted by Bloggrrl on 07/05/2007 at 06:34pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I read your blog regularly and this post stopped me in my tracks. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your husband and you try to work things out. It's tricky territory posting about this sort of thing, but you've been even-handed about it.
Posted by Bill on 07/05/2007 at 06:47pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
My wife and I went through counseling, or rather counselors. While it was hard enough for me to air our grievances in front of a trained therapist, my wife's circle of friends all knew every word in frightening detail. She also wrote about it in her blog, but seeing as how there are only seven people or so who read it, I was able to dismiss it as just venting.
If I found out that it was being read by thousands of people, I wouldn't have been so quick to forgive her – in fact, I would have felt even more betrayed, shamed, and less likely to continue to work on the marriage.
I applaud your candor, but please keep in mind that we men are emotionally closed books, with the assumption that what is said behind closed doors will stay there. Regardless of what we say bothers us or not.
Posted by JoeDrinker on 07/05/2007 at 07:08pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Guess I'll add my 2 cents to the mix. Having been through counseling as pre-divorce discussion, I know how it feels. But I've also been through counseling as effort to save a marriage we both want to save. I agree you have to decide whether you want to be right or get what you want and need (to quote that great philosopher Dr. Phil). It's up to you to decide what you are willing to look at in yourself. And let the mediator talk to your partner while you're in the early stages. Because what you are saying to him and vice versa isn't working or you wouldn't be there. Work on yourself; look inside. Also heed those who say divorce will create a whole new set of problems as single parents…lots of them worse that what you're dealing with now. Finally, I agree that men need respect more than anything…maybe your husband needs to work again?
Posted by Hope on 07/05/2007 at 07:20pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I seriously considered calling off my wedding, and when I talked with my matron of honor about this, she revealed that she and her husband have an agreement to never discuss their marriage with other people and to never say anything negative about the other person.
At the time, I was too caught up in my own drama (which continues three years later) to really hear this, but later, I realized that part of the reason I felt so crappy about my own relationship is that I was struggling in a vacuum – especially because one of my best friends had created an illusion of a perfect marriage. And created a perfectly lopsided friendship.
Recently I told this friend that it’s her prerogative to live this way but that as a result I have greatly curtailed what I would offer of myself going forward. She seemed shocked and surprised.
I agree completely with Penelope: The perspective we gain from the experiences of others is essential to figuring out our own lives.
Moreover, it’s part of the implicit compact we make with each other. These compacts at times need to evolve into explicit ground rules – when the stakes are high, when the implicit isn’t working. For example, I have told my husband that I do confide in a few close friends about the details of our marriage, and I consider that essential. I’ve also told him that has earned me their stories in return which have offered me perspective that has almost uniformly helped me keep my head on straight and helped our marriage.
Rather than suggesting blogging about these things (or commenting on blogs) is right or wrong, I suggest a check in with oneself and one’s subjects about the implicit and explicit understandings that govern this sort of disclosure.
As for the specifics of PT’s post, I could have written it myself (except for the part about the kids, the husband not working and the six-figure book deal – more perspective for me). Maybe if everyone posted 100 words of very specific information about why their relationship is going to hell in a hand basket we’d all feel better.
Posted by xntj on 07/05/2007 at 07:59pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Good Luck to you and your family – this will not be easy, no matter what happens.
Posted by Joanne on 07/05/2007 at 08:58pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Here's one thing I know:
At the end of our lives what's going to matter the most is how much we loved others and how much they loved us.
Careers won't matter. Money won't matter. Success won't matter.
Only love.
Posted by Working Girl on 07/05/2007 at 09:08pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
I am sorry things are going so hard for you in your marriage. I know you didn't ask for advice, but when I read your write up, it seems to scream out that you and your husband desparately need time alone together.
I have no idea if you are getting enough, but maybe a weekend getaway, just the two of you. At least 1x per month have a date night. Delegate him to making some weekend plans someplace – even if it's just a hotel with swimming pool and cable – no fair blogging or calling the office.
Getting together alone for an extended period will let the real feelings come out. Have some fun again together. You deserve it.
Yes things ARE going well for you career wise – it's only natural for the family life to strain right at some of the peaks. I don't know why life works that way, it just does.
Anyway, I've sort of rambled. Get some dates in where you can rekindle old feelings. :)
P.S. some guys don't say "I love you" when they are pissed. So – don't read too much into that. He wouldn't bother going to counseling if he had given up.
Posted by Brad Isaac on 07/05/2007 at 09:39pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This is the reason I read your blog – you're honest about your career and your life and how they intersect. As long as you and your husband are OK with the things you post, I'll be here to listen and wish you all the best.
Posted by melanie gao on 07/05/2007 at 10:12pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hi Penelope,
For the last few months of my own career indecision, I have religiously consulted your blog on tips for my own career. I have been a writer/journalist for the last 3 years, and was thinking of a career switch. I am a deep advocate of passion before pay, and thanks to lots of tiny words of wisdom from you about this topic, I have taken it on and run with it. And it has been liberating, especially in an Asian working world that prides success as the big Beamer and mansion house instead of finding my personal calling.
So it breaks my heart when I hear about your struggling marriage. It is such a stark reminder of life, that success often is a double edged sword. I am holding hope for brighter days for you, and that both you and your husband will find the courage necessary for the future. Thanks for your honesty. It has always been your most welcome trademark.
Thoughts with you,
Jon
Posted by Jonathan Chew on 07/05/2007 at 10:24pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'm so sorry you're going through this and I wish you the best in working in out. Whether you stay together or not, I hope you and your husband make whatever choice is the best for both of you.
As a child who grew up with bickering parents who almost got divorced many times but ended up staying together, I can tell you that there are times when it is better for children for the parents to get divorced. My parents fought constantly and it was really difficult for me and my brother to be around the screaming all the time. It gave us a really screwed up view of relationships and I sometimes find myself exhibiting similar behaviors with my husband, who is sweet, absolutely hates yelling and never deserves to be yelled at. It's hard to unlearn behaviors when it was all you knew growing up.
I think every family is different and relationship rules like "it's better to stay together for the children" are not always right in every situation. We can learn a lot from other people's experiences and from research, but in the end, every marriage and every family is unique. Good luck to you and your husband on finding the right path for your family.
Posted by Meredith on 07/05/2007 at 10:27pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I confess that I haven't read any of the previous comments, but I'm sure that this has already gone up at least once:
At least one of you knows that they want the marriage to work.
That will make things harder on you emotionally, but that also means there is more hope. I don't know you well enough to give you advice on how to make things work. But where there is hope… Best wishes to you Penelope.
Posted by Stacey on 07/05/2007 at 10:38pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Wow, did this post strike a chord today.
I envision you tonight, Penelope, reading and re-reading these comments. That would be tough in ways.
My ex had a long affair that I finally discovered. 12 years of marriage – three kids, ages 5, 8 and 10 at the time. Four years later, he's married for the third time and is still miserable. I can totally understand his having been unhappy – I was not happy. It's how he handled that unhappiness. I didn't look back in leaving him.
The good part is that it sounds like you two are "just" plain old really mad at one another. You haven't reached points of stumbling blocks like affairs that you may not recover from.
I'm ten times happier today than I was four years ago. But, I will say — I know from reading your posts that you feel guilt when your career messes with your 1-8pm window with the kids. If that causes guilt, wait until you hear your kids ask like mine did tonight "why didn't we see dad this week?" (dad didn't reschedule his night – - NOT intimating anything negative about your husband)… or when the dad weekend hits a "why do I have to go?" from a 14 year old that now wants to stay at "home" and be with his friends vs. going to dad's 2 bedroom condo where there is no room for his friends… But, they "have" to go…
The kids have done very well – they all have some divorce issues that I pick up on but in general they've done great. I do worry about them all long term re: relationships… I came from a non-divorcing family. Will see.
It's very difficult. I can count the times I've doubted my decision on a single hand. But, again, I felt like I had no choice. We hit the point of no return (I know myself and would never, never get over the lies and deception he pulled off).
Doesn't seem to me that you guys have hit that point which is wonderful – if you BOTH want it to be :) And I so stress BOTH. All the best!!
Posted by JG on 07/05/2007 at 10:49pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
When I saw this post I thought, "This is inappropriate content;" however, after considering a bit more I thought, "This is really inappropriate content!"
This blog's periodic delving into personal matters looks like a thinly veiled attempt to goose traffic—an attempt, judging from the number of comments (mine included), which works. I suppose daily talk of careers can be dry, although I think that Penelope's commentary in this area is quite interesting.
Most people with marital issues tend to keep them private—with good reason. Once you breach the confidentiality of a counseling session, as Penelope has done so dramatically here, you basically punt on the marriage. What's next? A live webcast with the three of them?
I can't say I've ever met a male who would be OK with these sorts of public relevations about his personal relationship. Penelope is selfish for divulging these details. "Abusive" really is apt description. Unfortunately, this post may do more than just abuse her husband. How will Penelope's son feel ten years from now when he stumbles across posts like this in a web archive?
Posted by Fred on 07/05/2007 at 10:56pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This post and the comments it spawned made me think about this: sometimes, the right thing to do is protect your own interests. Sometimes, you have to protect the interests of the people you love. What on earth are you supposed to do, however, when those things conflict?
A woman I work with has stalled her life for her children. American culture celebrates this. But when she and I talk, I am drawn toward the longing in her voice. My coworker rarely does things in her personal life that are not of immediate benefit to someone else, and certainly does not do things that would appear "selfish" or self-improving. And it always makes me wonder: what happens to her when the kids are grown? When you define yourself solely by the role of "mother," who do you become when your kids are no longer the force behind your daily choices?
I was lucky to have a mother who was able to balance a successful career, a busy child (albeit only one!) and an active personal life. My mom made serious sacrifices on my behalf when my parents were first divorced, but she never sacrificed her own future for my happiness. If anything, building a better future for the two of us drove her to improve herself. I aspire to be the same kind of mom.
My mom applied this same philosophy to her current marriage, which is to a man I am lucky to call my second father (my birth dad is also active in my life). My stepdad is 12 years older than my mom and was a heavy smoker for many years. My mom has told me that she knew when she married him that it is highly probable that he will pass away before she does. She planned – planned! – to make sure that her life would be rich with him and without him. While he's sure to be around for many more years (decades!), my mom's candor about this healthy kind of self-importance has really helped me when I consider my own relationships: Is this someone who will define me, or someone who will help me define myself?
Best wishes for you and your family.
Posted by Lauren on 07/05/2007 at 11:19pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
What I appreciate most about Penelope's honesty is that she warns me about some pitfalls that could be ahead if my husband and I don't "watch where we're going." Not just this post, but many posts that (rightly and uniquely) connect life and career decisions.
Whether its right for her to share family issues on her blog is something between her and her family.
She/they made the choice to share it.
I intend to learn from their generosity — and not judge it.
Posted by Wendy on 07/05/2007 at 11:23pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
One other quick comment: I have to say I'm with Penelope on the issue of public vs. private. Several years ago, a close friend and I were both in negative relationships. We never discussed our problems. We each suffered alone, thinking that everyone around us was sickeningly happy and that we were screwed up for being miserable. I thought she was happy in her relationship. She thought I was happy in mine. When her relationship finally ended, I was shocked. I had no idea how bad it was, because she had kept things private to protect him. And how much I wish, in hindsight, that I had had the courage to admit, publicly, how poorly my own relationship was faring. Perhaps I would have gotten myself out a few years earlier.
Posted by Lauren on 07/05/2007 at 11:30pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'd agree with Wendy if "she/they" made the choice, but it appears that "she" made it.
Posted by Fred on 07/05/2007 at 11:31pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
On Lauren's quick comment:
That's a good point, except that this blog isn't limited to "close friends."
Posted by Fred on 07/05/2007 at 11:34pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
To sacrifice yourself on the altar of artistic honesty is admirable, but in this instance I truly fear for you
Posted by Dale on 07/05/2007 at 11:43pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I think it's tough for any of us to say what our relationships are with bloggers. Penelope answered an email I sent her – on a wing and a prayer – with the kind of care and attention that a close friend would give me. Does that mean she's my friend? Not in the offline way. But there's an interesting sort of community on blogs… after all, we're all reading down to the 68th comment. The line between public and private is really, really indistinct… if not imaginary.
Posted by Lauren on 07/05/2007 at 11:44pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Good luck to you. If there's hope for reconciliation, I would suggest taking a family trip…..without your laptop. Then see if you can rekindle what brought you too together.
Posted by chris on 07/06/2007 at 01:34am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
You're strong and clever.
You know what you wish and I hope will find how to achieve it.
If a couple desires something the same together, then, I think, there is no serious obstacle on their track.
And yet, I belive that a lot depends on woman in a marriage, so, be active while waiting for his decision about his love!
Good luck
Posted by Andrey on 07/06/2007 at 01:40am | permalink | Reply to this comment
So what does all this discourse boil down to? I believe the Beatles said it best:
And in the end
The love you take
Is equal to the love
You make
Posted by R Jay on 07/06/2007 at 03:41am | permalink | Reply to this comment
"I like how you say that you won. This is how I know I will feel when I come out of this with my marriage in one piece. I will feel like it’s a huge victory. I will jump up and down and tell people how hard I worked at this. I like that you are cheering for your own victory here. You are a good role modle for where I want to be."
Maybe, just maybe, it isn't the best thing for everyone. Maybe, just maybe, it isn't the best thing for Mr. P. Are you going to force him? Because I know that women are emotionally abusive in a marriage, I've seen it. And your determination could so easily spawn that…
Posted by sarah on 07/06/2007 at 07:22am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Parenting is probably harder to work than marriage. You have counseling on how to bring up a autistic child and help him lead a normal life?
Does your kid have any say in this matter? I'm sure, he'd like his parents to stay together.
I am dyslexic and ADD, was very tough to "bring up" and back then, there were no medication. Parental love and Care worked mostly for me, though thats not always enough. Good luck and thank you for blogging about it.
Posted by BKR Nair on 07/06/2007 at 08:04am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Good Luck Penelope. I really do commend you for taking the initiative to see someone before giving up on Marriage. It just seems that people give up way to easily these days. I've been married five years (I'm 28) and in that five years we have seen many of our friends marry and divorce. When (not if) you and your husband make it through this your bond will be like steel, because if you can overcome this adversity in your marriage the two of you will be able to overcome any obstacle that life presents you.
Matt
Posted by Matt Bingham on 07/06/2007 at 09:22am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Just seems like a façade to attack your husband from a medium he probably doesn't check.
**At this point, I think my husband is going to tell the mediator about how he gave up his career for the kids and me and he is totally disappointed. But instead he says to me, “A lot of people I talk with say that I am being abused by you.”
I am shocked. It’s a big allegation. But I say, “A lot of people I talk with think I should get rid of you.”**
Sounds like a rather abusive remark to me.
Posted by Sine qua non on 07/06/2007 at 09:50am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, I feel for you. I have been where you are, and I just want to recommend John Gottman. I credit a Gottman weekend with transforming my marriage. His books and DVDs are also worth the money. What I know of you from reading this blog, I think you would like this approach.
Here is a link to upcoming workshops: http://www.gottman.com/marriage/weekend_workshop/
Posted by Nan on 07/06/2007 at 10:44am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope…I am so sorry to read about your marriage difficulties. I wish you success in reconnecting with your husband and achieveing success in this marriage (if that is the right solution to this situation). I echo many of the more supportive comments shown here and I don't want to waste bandwidth…but find myself oddly compelled to contribute. So here are some of my thoughts – for what they're worth:
–I think people are threatened by your honesty. Most of us do not see this or participate so honestly in our daily lives. I have no problem with you posting on a topic like this…for those who have read you for awhile, we understand that this is a part of who you are…and why we read you!
–As Stephen Covey suggested: begin with the end in mind. Which would you prefer on your headstone: "A-list blogger, successful author, fantastic contributing editor" or "Beloved Wife, Dearest Mother, Honored Grandmother, Valued Aunt, and life partner"??? This is a choice only you can make, it has to be right for you. In the end, for many of us, careers are irrelevant…families are everything. I gave up a high-level, high-paying corporate position becaused I missed the coming of age of three of my four children. I wasn't going to miss that last one! Oh sure, I make less money…but I've received a compensation that has left me far richer! My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner…much, much sooner.
–Marriage requires compromise…equally from both parties…its part of the deal. Sure, your husband needs to change in order to more adequately fulfill the relationship from your perspective…and you need to change to more adequately fulfill the relationship from his perspective!
You have to dig deep on this one Penelope. This is not just another one of those intellectual challenges at which you are so capable. This time it's real, it's important, and it's personal. And be careful, flaring emotions can push you to say and do things you'll later regret.
–It's not enough to love your husband…he must also love you or the relationship is ultimately doomed…no matter what you do. It is the mutuality of a strong and deep love that helps a marriage survive the long haul and daily challenges of life. If your love is unrequited…it is unlikely that you can "do" anything to save a marriage.
–One could conclude that the energy you throw into your career could be due to the unhappiness of your relationship with your husband. One could also conclude that your husband's unhappiness could be the increased isolation that your time on your career has put him in…and the stress of taking care of the autistic child. Maybe this situation is unavoidable…and maybe you could *rework* the situation so that both of you get more out of it.
–If the relationship fails…it's not his fault, it's not your fault…it's the fault of both of you. Make sure you look in the mirror and connect with your failures as well as you can elucidate his failures. Not all marriages can survive…but if they do, it's usually because both parties get in touch with their thoughts, inadequacies, jealousies, fears, and feelings and work to overcome these issues for the sake of the relationship. You need to know where you stand so that if this relationship fails…you have a better chance at contributing to a better "next relationship."
I wish you all the best. Life is a complex journey…
Ted G.
Posted by Ted on 07/06/2007 at 12:24pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
> Next meeting we will move on to the rules of engagement.
Most married people have done the engagement first.
Posted by peter on 07/06/2007 at 12:32pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Fantastic, candid, brutally honest and raw. I loved it.
I've been blogging now for about 7 months about the intersections of myself, my family, and my work. I live in the UK which isn't quite the blogging capital the US is but being American there is something about it that resonated with me. Many Brits (including some of my friends) are horrified that I blog about just about everything. they ask me why I do it and I try to explain how cathartic it is.
Then I read your response to a comment about story telling and I know realise it is how I make sense of my life and all the joy and strife.
Keep being real, as if you need my encouragement!
Posted by LaDawn on 07/06/2007 at 01:06pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
You claim to have love for your husband, then you post a mildly derisive and definitely humiliating blog entry for the world to see. So I must ask, do you know what "love" is? I ask in a rhetorical fashion, not that I actually doubt that you know what it is, but rather to try to encourage you to take a look at what you know love to be and your actions. Though I doubt this is the case, I certainly hope this entry was made with your husband's consent. If not, you can add my voice to his list of people that think you are abusive toward him.
Posted by originalgeek on 07/06/2007 at 01:55pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Honestly? I think the best thing that you could do right now is one thing:
Give your husband the gift of privacy.
When you are in the public eye, when you choose to be there, your family members get dragged along with you. When you choose to keep them there, in that spotlight, when the pressure is on and things are breaking, that's a selfish act.
Perhaps its time to blog about other things and allow him the space and privacy to mend the relationship. To fail or to win, without public scrutiny, because its a very vulnerable position that you are putting him in. I don't think its fair to do that.
Posted by Jodes on 07/06/2007 at 02:00pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hey, Penelope – I agree with what you're doing.
A giant step in counseling is making everything that has been subconscious and hidden out in the open. That's the only way that real problems can be fixed.
I'm sure your husband recognizes this.
Hope everything works out.
Posted by Joshua Barraza on 07/06/2007 at 02:26pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Y'know, as these comments grow in number, I'm noticing something. Some people think you should make all this private for your husband's sake, and some are commending you for going public. But no one's suggesting you ask your husband what he would like.
Have you asked your husband if he minds you making your marital problems public? After all, they belong to both of you.
Your reply to this concern before said "when my husband met me I was writing my master’s thesis about my sex life. In real time. So he knew what he was getting into, and he is used to it after fifteen years." That sounds like an assumption to me. Have you asked him, recently, if he is used to it? If he likes it? Maybe he didn't mind before but now he does. Being that you're having problems, the first thing you need to do is check all your assumptions, and make sure you know how he feels, rather than simply make deductions based on your history.
* * * * * * *
People should look thrhough the string and notice that the men are the ones worried that I have not asked permission from my husband. Newsflash: Men, women talk about you to their friends all the time. It's how women are. Men talk about sports and women talk about their marriages. And they don't ask permission first.
But that's not even the point here. You are just going to have to trust me that my husband could care less what I write here. If he cared, he would not have married me becuse I did it through our whole courtship. It might be hard for you to imagine not caring. But I would not have married someone who cares because writing about my life is too important to me. In fact, seeing the uproar on the blog makes me think it's great that I found someone who doesn't care what I write about him. Makes me more determined to keep the marriage together. So thank you for that.
-Penelope
Posted by Ted Slampyak on 07/06/2007 at 02:36pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Thank you for sharing and opening yourself up to comments – good and bad. Several things have struck me. First, yes, I agree that confidentiality is huge for counseling – and actually, if your husband has issues with your public openness, this might be a really good way to build up some trust. Meaning, communicating with him about what you intend to write about, and then perhaps giving him some control over whether or not it's made public. I realize that might quell being "real", but you do acknowledge that some things need to change.
Second, I can really relate to your struggle and the dynamic you described. I know many readers found your comment about "getting rid of him" abusive, and it may be, but I see a lot of hurt and defensiveness on both of your parts.
Third, yes, you do need to start being nice to each other. It sounds like such a simple thing, but feels like the hardest thing in the world. There is a book by Harville Hendrix that might be helpful – has some exercises and tips for reconnecting. We also had a counselor give us a list of positive adjectives to use towards each other. It's a start!
I wish you the best and also really love Steve's "victory" metaphor. I just moved home after a 2 month separation – I also hope to get through this, stay together and share that victory.
Best to you and your family!
Posted by SMD on 07/06/2007 at 03:16pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
You seem to have your fair share of fans and defenders commenting. Reading between the lines in this post and some of your comment replies, I'm going to tell you what some therapists may have tried to explain but probably won't say it directly enough. Your ego has gotten the best of you and it's wrecking your marrige. You come across as rather self centered and a bit immature for your age. If people are telling your husband that he's in a bad situation with you it's a sure sign that you are getting more out of the relationship than you are putting in. When you have the misfortune to have a child with autism or other special needs, pursuing an ego feeding career (blog/book) full steam ahead is selfish and detrimental to your family. Hope you can figure this out before it blows up. Success and money can't bring you the same kind of fulfillment that a loving family can. It sounds like you have a good guy if he has put up with your behavior this long, best to change now before you lose him. Anyone who thinks it's selling out to change yourself over time in a relationship to better fit with someone you love is naive. It's all part of growing up.
Posted by Joe Bob on 07/06/2007 at 03:28pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
July 5, 2007 – The Internet
Brazen Carrerist Penelope Trunk introduces the world to an entirely new media concept: Reality Blogging
————–
Hyperbole aside, If you're as smart as you seem to be, you'll disregard the sycophant chorus you've drawn out here and take a good hard look at yourself and how your ego is getting in the way of your professed love for your husband.
Posted by originalgeek on 07/06/2007 at 03:49pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Fine, Pamela. He's totally fine with it. Your going public is not a problem for him. You don't even have to ask him, you know him so well. You are totally in tune with his every like and dislike, his every whim and thought.
And that's why you're going to marriage counseling.
Again.
Posted by Ted Slampyak on 07/06/2007 at 03:57pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Wow. This is an intense thread.
I wonder what your kids are going to think when they read all these comments and posts someday….
Posted by Ben Casnocha on 07/06/2007 at 04:01pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Okay, my last comment was harsh. I didn't mean for it to sound harsh. It reads bitter, and I didn't mean to sound bitter. Why should I be bitter?
I was just trying to drive home the idea that maybe you don't know him as well as you do — that's all. You seem to not want to even pose the question to yourself, that maybe you should ask him if he wants the details of your counseling made public, and you seemed to show a lack of introspection that seems counter to the point of all this blogging.
Sorry for coming across as angry, if I did.
Posted by Ted Slampyak on 07/06/2007 at 04:14pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
After much thought, I've decided to comment. There are several dynamics at work here which are visible from your post and responses to the audience.
My first question: is whether the "mediator" a MFCC or an attorney (family law or otherwise). Second, mediation by definition is confidential (otherwise its not mediation at all). If theres no confidentiality – then its not mediation by definition (whether your husband could careless or not).
To use a volleyball analogy, think of it this way: how fair would it be for your husband to have to "power dig" an outside hit from you (with little or no volleyball skillset). You having been a Beach Pro and I'm going to assume a Div. I collegiate player as well (no matter how long ago that may have been).
Same thing with breaching the confidentiality … err, blogging about your "mediation" sessions (to an audience of a half – mil). I believe that you're not acknowledging the power imbalance here. Com'on Penelope, you're way better than this.
If you need to "get it on paper" (in real time) in order to express yourself AND you wish to maintain the confidentiality of the mediation – then you need to journal. It shouldn't matter whether 500,001 blogger read the entries, or just one person reads the entry (guess who).
As to helping your audience, a later release of a diary could meet that need as well (although that would breach mediation confidentiality – in the strict sense as well). Oh and one last thing – if the mediator has to keep the discussion confidential, don't you think all of the parties participating in the mediation have to abide by the same "rules"? Just a thought.
P.S. My mediation training was completed via the Strauss Inst. at Pepperdine Law School
P.P.S. I'm appointed to the Los Angeles Superior Court Mediation Panel.
Posted by David "The V-Ball Mgr." on 07/06/2007 at 04:20pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penny,
When you start something, you really start something:) Aside from the fact that in the past you have jumped all over the sensibilities of many people (boomers like myself) with your career advice, now you have taken out the stilettos and are doing Irish tap on our opinion of propriety. You go girl!
We all need to think more, to discuss the ?undiscussable? more, and to care more. Here, you have given us the opportunity to do all three.
I still wish that you had given us this tidbit in retrospect, as opposed to real time. And dispite the fact that consciously I tell myself it is because I want what is best for you and your family, unconsciously, I know I am at least partly motivated by my discomfort at what is akin to staring into a fresh open wound or a recent serious accident. I do not know if the people involved will be okay (I wish I knew the outcome so I could be emotionally prepared for it, as I am with movies). Additionally, it strikes too close to home for me, and others, as I personally would not want my wife to be as open as you are. But your actions can only help build community in our little village, and I really hope that you are prepared for all of the relationship questions / queries for marital advice that you are going to be asked to give – if not now, then when all this has played out.
Bye.
Posted by Dale on 07/06/2007 at 04:31pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Who publishes a play-by-play of their marriage counseling sessions under their real name? That doesn't really seem like a good idea.
Posted by rmuser on 07/06/2007 at 04:51pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'm sorry, but it sounds like you're a stark, raving bitch who pays no attention to her husband and overcomplicates things. I sounded like your husband knew what he was talking about and you're trying to read other crap into it. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he was having difficulty feeling love for you at the moment.
If you're wondering where about 75% of the problem is in your relationship, start looking in the mirror.
Posted by Voodoo Idol on 07/06/2007 at 05:16pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
That sucks.
You need a hug.
Even if you don't think you do, you do.
I am 31 and my parents are (2-weeks) divorced. After 38 years… Never thought they'd be a statistic but they are, now. I have no revelations or answers.
I know how thin the line is, how life can go spinning out of control so fast and easy. Life can feel like I am drowning but somehow I am still here, living and loving.
If he can commit to trying that's great.
My life motto is I don't waste time on people that don't want to be with me.
Be strong.
Posted by Jessi on 07/06/2007 at 05:24pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hey there:
Listen to the actions, not the words. If your husband didn't love you, the meeting would have been with a divorce attorney, and you wouldn't have been invited.
Posted by spam on 07/06/2007 at 05:30pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Ever think your husband might have a problem with you blogging about your marriage to the rest of the world? You seem to have a good grasp of communication skills, you just choose not to use them with your husband.
And if he doesn't care about you airing your dirty laundry to the world, well then the marriage is over cause he doesn't care about you anymore.
Couldn't agree with Voodoo Idol more. Look in the mirror lady.
Posted by Kevo on 07/06/2007 at 05:30pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
"A lot of people I talk with think I should get rid of you."
When you say "people", who are you referring to?
A) Your parents
B) Professional therapists/counselors
C) Blog readers and E-pals
D) A mix of husband-hating yentas and tortured co-workers
"A lot of people I talk with say that I am being abused by you."
When he says "people", who is he referring to?
A) His parents
B) His very closest and oldest friends
C) Professional therapists/counselors
D) All of the above
Posted by Undertoad on 07/06/2007 at 05:41pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Mmmmmm…….shifting rationalizations……tasty!
So he doesn't care about you posting the private stuff because that's who he is. He's different than all the other men.
then
He shouldn't care about it, because all woman gossip to 100,000 people. All men should assume everything is fair game.
As everyones favourite Vulcan would say
"That is most illogical"
Posted by BobfromCanada on 07/06/2007 at 05:43pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I have a hard time understanding why divorce is so hard on children under the age of 5. You can barely understand or even remember anything at that age – you haven’t been out of the uterus that long. I’d find easier to accept that older children, even teens, have a difficult time with divorce than people two feet tall.
Posted by Voyuer on 07/06/2007 at 05:45pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Voyer – it's hard on children later in life. While they may seem 'used to it' by growing into it. It may seem like they are familiar with the rules of 2 householdes – It does still pull on the children's heartstrings.
- from experience.
Posted by ^Lestat on 07/06/2007 at 05:47pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope commented: "People should look thrhough the string and notice that the men are the ones worried that I have not asked permission from my husband. Newsflash: Men, women talk about you to their friends all the time. It’s how women are. Men talk about sports and women talk about their marriages. And they don’t ask permission first."
I'm not sure this is the same thing. It's one thing to discuss something with a close friend. It's quite another thing to post it on the electronic version of a billboard, for any and all who pass by to see. If, as you say, he doesn't have any problems with you writing about this, then more power to you. However, my advice, worth everything you paid for it, is to verify that this topic is still ok with him. If he has any reservations, then I think you owe it to him to more circumspect.
"But I would not have married someone who cares because writing about my life is too important to me. In fact, seeing the uproar on the blog makes me think it’s great that I found someone who doesn’t care what I write about him. Makes me more determined to keep the marriage together. So thank you for that."
Relationships fall apart because people change and the relationship fails to change with them. It wouldn't hurt to make sure that his opinion hasn't changed, would it? If it doesn't bother him, then great! If it does, then maybe you've found a starting point for a long discussion about what you both want and need from each other?
Again, good wishes for the best possible outcome for all 3 of you.
Posted by Dave on 07/06/2007 at 05:52pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hey,
If you want to see what people's opinions of your post in a straightforward manner that's simply an objective discussion… Go read the reddit comments:
http://reddit.com/info/242vw/comments
Posted by A Reader on 07/06/2007 at 05:56pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Wait a second, please. I'm both a woman AND a writer, and I *don't* go public (or even talk to friends) about what my husband has been saying in marriage counselling. I write about it tons, sure, (I have to. I'm a WRITER) but that writing is just for me. And while I do blog about my own feelings sometimes, my thoughts and words are my own — just as my husband's feelings and words are *his* own (he owns the copyright to them, if you will)
I also have a vested interest of my own here. I want to stay married, so I really need to hear what my husband is thinking and feeling; sharing will be hard for him to do if nothing is off-record, nothing can be spoken as "rough draft" or "in-process" thought, and everything is, instead, considered final copy and copyright-free, not to mention subject to my own choice of re-contextualization and public resyndication.
I can expose myself in public if I want to, that's certainly my right, but breaking my husband's confidentiality amounts, (to continue the writing analogy) to a kind of plagiarism. Moreover, it's also against the advice of only about a thousand marital advice books!
Just, please, ASK him. If he really doesn't care, your assumptions are correct and there's no problem, and asking won't change anything. So why not ask?
God speed. Marriage (and marriage with kids) is hard, hard, hard.
Posted by Almostgotit on 07/06/2007 at 07:13pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Voyuer: The only thing worse than growing up in a single-parent home is growing up in two single-parent homes. Speaking from experience, forcing kids to split their time between two parents and two houses will make them absolutely hate you for it.
Posted by rmuser on 07/06/2007 at 08:02pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Thanks for your signature coming clean. If people don't want to read this (or any other) post, fine. It's simple to exit and turn to another blog, etc. they hardly need to leave a comment. You did not ask for advice so i don't know why readers are giving it. And when they do give it, the advice usually appears to be about them, not you.
In such situations, when i find myself at odds with folks i'm communicating with, i try to keep in mind that opinions are freely chosen or formed and opinions don't necessarily address me or what i am talking about.
take good care.
Posted by tamar on 07/06/2007 at 08:19pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
“People should look thrhough the string and notice that the men are the ones worried that I have not asked permission from my husband. Newsflash: Men, women talk about you to their friends all the time. It’s how women are. Men talk about sports and women talk about their marriages. And they don’t ask permission first.”
Ladies and gentlemen, Mrs. Trunk is a misandrist. First, this is a load of crap. You might be able to qualify it to say "It's how women WHO ARE PINING FOR A DIVORCE are." Second, please don't insult our intelligence. It's pretty obvious there's no comparison between "talking" and broadcasting on the Internet. Duh!
"If he cared, he would not have married me becuse I did it through our whole courtship."
That's fascinating! I did not realize we had a World Wide Web with blogs 15 years ago! Evidently you are equating "writing" with "blogging." Wait! How could YOU of all people be doing that! Mrs. Use-The-Special-Power-Of-The-Internet-To-Build-A-Satisfying-Career.
Posted by Fred on 07/06/2007 at 08:37pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
I had to chime in. I was married for many years. Things really shifted when my son was born. felt like a single mom when I was still married.
Still, it's much more difficult to get over than I imagined. It took a good 3 years. Life gets so complicated – keeping track of all the grandparents and schedules.
I could've forgotten what marriage was like but I miss it. Someone to witness life with. Share a household. Share our son's life. If that's all it was it's not what I dreamed, but it doesn't look so bad now.
Divorce can make life much more difficult, not easier. When you have kids especially.
Being a parent and a spouse requires so much self-sacrifice to really work.
I wish I'd signed up for Landmark Education. It's done more for me more than marriage therapy did. Really, none of them gave me ANY hope at all.
I hope you can put more of the passion you have for writing into your marriage. From your telling I'm more concerned about him loving you than the other way around. Love can be re-learned and unearthed.
Knowing something by watching is entirely different than living something. Your husband probably had no idea what it might really feel like to be married and the sacrifices and forgiveness necessary.
I hope I read one day about how you pulled through and you're still married. And how you are mostly, if not entirely, happy.
-Janet
Posted by Janet Meiners on 07/06/2007 at 08:38pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Something someone said above hit home about your child and what's in store for him in the future. The web is forever… you put this out there, you can't take it back (thank you archive.org).
Yes, you feel the need to tell the world all the intimate details of your marriage problems. Yes, you say he doesn't care that you tell the world all these intimate details.
But how about your son? Is this fair to him? When he's 12 years old how is he going to feel if/when he stumbles into you two berating each other in public (for thats how it reads)? How is your son going to feel knowing anyone can read what Mom candidly thinks of Daddy, or that she ponders having an affair (but not really)? How about his friends? Hopefully he won't get teased mercilessly about it.
Posted by Allie on 07/06/2007 at 09:29pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
The more I look at this original post and the subsequent messages, the more it all leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I don't know if I'm ever going to read this site with the same enthusiasm as I have in the past.
Because you were writing a thesis about your sex life fifteen years ago, your husband doesn't need to be asked whether he'd mind your blogging details of your marital counseling to the world? If your husband did feel uncomfortable about your telling the world what went on in your marriage counseling, that would constitute his not supporting your writing?
Because my wife supports me as an artist, does that mean I wouldn't need to ask her if I can post nude drawings of her online? Drawings that were done when she didn't know I was drawing her, like when she was on the toilet or sleeping? After all, I was drawing pictures when we first met…
I also find troubling your mentioning in your original post how you "delegate" to your husband. One doesn't delegate to an equal partner; one delegates to a subordinate.
And I still don't understand why any of this is relevant to a blog about careers. Yes, there is a balance between work and family, and the fact that you're having problems may very well be relevant. So tell people that you're having problems. That doesn't mean you need to spout the details of what was said during counseling.
If this were a blog specifically about your love life or your marriage, maybe it'd be appropriate. But it's a self-promotional tool whose primary goal is to sell books and further your career. Maybe some aspects of your life shouldn't be used to that end.
Finally, I'm struck with all of this in light of just the other day, when I was watching a great speech you were giving to the Rotary Club. You were expounding on your central theme — that young people of today, whom you implicitly represent, aren't interested in sacrificing their families and their relationships for their careers.
Really?
Brazen careerist, indeed.
Posted by Ted Slampyak on 07/07/2007 at 12:16am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Lots of comments, so here's one more – you are doing what you need to do. He's doing what he needs to do. That's all any of us are capable of.
At one point in your life, those needs intersected, and now they don't and you have to deal with that.
Which is why I'm not going to applaud your honesty any more than I would applaud a bird for flying away from a predator. I don't think you're doing this for us or to pump you your rankings like the one ignoramus said.
I think this blog is and always has been the best coping mechanism you have, as it has been throughout your career and family life and you desperately need to write this down, get it out of you and on silicon and show it to the world because that's who you are.
All of this, the commenting and the snottiness and the great big huggy-wuggies are what you need to deal with this, not in spite of the amateur psychiatrists and outraged NO MA'AMers chipping in but because of them.
My own circumstances are not dissimilar to yours, only I am the stay-at-home-hubby and she's the one who travels. I love her dearly and want her to be happy, but I am becoming less and less so, not specifically that she is gone (the families with soldiers overseas are 10,000 steps ahead of me in the right-to-be-POed line) but that her coming home seems to be only long enough to sleep, eat and leave again.
So I am thinking that maybe the thing that makes her want to go away so much is me and it would be better for me to get out of her way and get started on that life of crappy apartments, Lean Cuisines, cruising church groups and George Jones on the jukebox.
If I wanted that. Which I don't. What I want is to love her, and and make a life work with her, and ugliness is part of being a grownup. I once read that so many tell themselves that if they just work through the next roadblock, then life can start, and too late most people learn that working through those roadblocks is their life. So I want to work through what's going on, because when I made my vow in a church I said forever and I meant it.
Maybe he feels the same way. Maybe you do too. Or not. At any rate, the key to effective blogging seems to be having an interesting life filled with things worth writing down, which you have in spades and which is why I read blogs instead of writing them.
Best of luck to both of you, wherever you wind up going. In the end you will be what you are no matter what, and it may not seem like it now but you are doing the world a great service in honoring that.
Posted by Grieving Optimist on 07/07/2007 at 12:45am | permalink | Reply to this comment
To be honest, I've done really montonous jobs, and the fact that your hubby is doing it for such a long time must be soul destroying. Then, to have a life invested in a special needs child all the time must be grating and frustrating. Can't you two get child care so that he can get a job that is consistent with his intellectual needs?
Really, if you were in his situation, what would you do? You're always going on about doing the best for oneself, despite the odds. So, in this case, his 'best for self' might be to get a job commensurate with his abilities, afford to spring for child care and just be happy. At the end of it, it's all anyone wants.
Oh, re the whole staying together for the kids thing (to all the other posters). As a child who grew up in an unhappy marriage, my parents should have divorced 15 years before they actually did.
Posted by jascinth on 07/07/2007 at 04:31am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Oh, wow. I'm really, really sorry about your family situation.
All I have to offer are things I learned purely from my own experience and thus which are not applicable to anybody else; here they are in case any of them is at all useful.
My first marriage ended in divorce; now I'm in a happy long-term marriage to husband #2. Caveats: fwiw, YMMV, caveat emptor, results not guaranteed, contents may have settled during transit, etc.:
- every human interaction involves power dynamics, whether you want it to or not.
- people have unconscious scripts for their marriages. Everybody has them, most people just can't identify or articulate them well.
- people do change, but not always for the better, and not always in sync with their partner.
- two people can be a great fit in one phase of their lives and a bad fit in another.
- cutting back on careers doesn't necessarily improve the marriage. A spouse's job demands are often just convenient to complain about. Symptoms, not root causes.
- be esp wary of those people who believe that women's careers are the cause of marital problems or children's problems.
- All relationships require a certain amount of denial. Unhappy relationships require a lot more of it.
- when you've lived neck deep in a hole for long enough, it's hard to truly see/feel/imagine what possibilities life might have, if you weren't living neck deep in that hole.
- there's a difference between a marriage that's going through some problems and a marriage that's permanently problematic.
- divorce is like surgery: hurts like hell, takes longer to heal than expected, leaves a scar, but if the patient is future focused and takes care of themselves, they generally recover. A troubled marriage is like a chronically painful medical condition: sometimes it hurts more, sometimes it hurts less, on a few rare occasions it doesn't hurt at all.
- after divorce, one positive: the enormous relief to finally be out from under the emotional burden. Out of the rut; longer responsible for the apparently endless task of trying to make that other person happy.
- yeah, divorce is hard on kids. But it's also hard on kids to have them grow up with a daily example of a conflicted marriage, and with parents/adults who seem powerless to change their own most personal relationship dynamic.
- just because somebody fails at marriage once doesn't mean that they're inherently flawed as a spouse and incapable of having a happy marriage with somebody else.
Posted by M on 07/07/2007 at 05:31am | permalink | Reply to this comment
No amount of therapy is going to work. Relationships are like milk, once it spoils, it'll never be good again. You can try and turn it into yogurt, but it's just not the same.
Posted by Chad on 07/07/2007 at 06:35am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
Both my wife and I have been reading your blog now for about 2 months. We were both touched by the sharing you did yesterday about the troubles that you and your husband are having. Your honesty, and open sharing are having an impact on us. We are both in counciling now for our marriage and wish you and your husband the best. It's worth it! I think that we all get better when we work through things rather than cut the cords and run…into another relationship where the same issues will come up. At some point we all have to stop and confront the reasons/problems that we face in our relationships or we're doomed to them haunting us forever.
Posted by Ted on 07/07/2007 at 11:20am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope – I didn't think I would be commenting today, but this post really touched me. I have been divorced and been through the rounds of therapy to try and save that first marriage. Here in my second marriage, my husband is a SAHD while I work (in software, too, BTW).
This post is very appropriate in that work/life balance many of us are struggling with. I read the links that describe your husband's experience working at nights, and again, that hits a chord with us. My husband gets a lot of negative comments from jerks, and internally he struggles with shame.
Who can judge a marriage just from one post? In my experience, marriages are many-layered, complicated situations. Re the comments left for this post: just take what you like and leave the rest. None of us really know the whole situation.
I thank you for your honesty and this post.
Posted by Sophie on 07/07/2007 at 11:44am | permalink | Reply to this comment
If I could give you a hug right now I would. I'll say a prayer for you, your family and your marriage.
Posted by littlepurplecow on 07/07/2007 at 01:36pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
It took a lot of courage to share this story, I have similar difficulity in my marriage, our son is 18 and has autism.We love him to death but the 2 of us have grown apart. I did not know the stat's are over 80% fail rate, so sad.
Posted by JD on 07/07/2007 at 02:32pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Marriage is the most illogical insititution ever. People rush to get married without thinking…because everyone in the herd is doing it…it's something that has to be done…Like being born and dying? Maybe it's just me in the whole world, but I fail to see the point!
Sorry, this doesn't have anything to do with penelope, just got me thinking on a tangent. Interesting blog, very candid and engaging.
Posted by prithvi on 07/07/2007 at 03:47pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
How does your husband feel about this post? How do _you_ feel about this post – do you have any misgivings at all?
I tend to agree with Mike and my advice would be to take this offline. I think it can be incredibly undermining for a relationship and demoralising for the other half in a couple to have the problems of the relationship discussed publicly. You are the author of a book as well as a high-profile blogger so this is far from anonymous. In terms of the exposure and potential hurt, it's also quite a different ball game from a Masters thesis.
Even if he was okay with what you wrote a long time ago, people change and they are allowed to feel differently later in life. It was in a less public forum and it was also back when times were good.
There is a very public divorce case in the UK right now involving a high profile columnist who wrote her column for years about her lazy, good-for-nothing husband. I know that you have not said anything near so cruel but your husband is likely to be feeling quite sensitive right now and this post is more likely to hurt than help the situation.
Yes, I do agree that the reality of marriage should be discussed more. But I think it needs a bit of distance – either by talking in the abstract or under the cloak of anonymity, or by talking candidly but later, when the relationship has already recovered or ended. I would suggest waiting until you are out of the woods before you write about this.
Obviously it's your choice but I think something that could save many relationships is greater kindness and respect.
However you choose to handle this, I really hope it works out for the both of you.
Posted by Caitlin on 07/07/2007 at 04:45pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Voyeur said: "I have a hard time understanding why divorce is so hard on children under the age of 5. You can barely understand or even remember anything at that age – you haven’t been out of the uterus that long. I’d find easier to accept that older children, even teens, have a difficult time with divorce than people two feet tall."
What an extraordinary statement!
I would never say that people should stay together merely "for the sake of the children" and I have some sympathy for the argument that it's better for everyone in the long run not to have an unhappy relationship. However, it does not automatically follow that children under the age of five don't have a difficult time with divorce.
You might not understand _why_ children under the age of five have a hard time with divorce, but the fact is, they do. When my parents split up when I was four, I spent the next six months having temper tantrums and biting other children. I'm over it now and like to think I'm a fairly well adjusted, happy adult, but it wasn't without angst at the time.
Children understand more than you think. I remember lots of things from when I was three, four and five years old quite vividly. That's not true for everyone, but I'm sure I'm not alone. But it's not really about understanding and brainpower. All the child knows is that one of their much-loved parents is no longer there, living with them. It's about emotion and, actually, the fact that they don't _understand_ what's happening only makes it worse.
As others have pointed out, they then have the hassle throughout life of negotiating and dividing their time and belongings between two different households. It's manageable but it's a pain in the neck.
Chad said, "No amount of therapy is going to work. Relationships are like milk, once it spoils, it’ll never be good again. You can try and turn it into yogurt, but it’s just not the same."
I think that's a bit harsh. Actually, it's my belief that every relationship has a natural rhythm and you need to ride out the lows and enjoy the highs. If something happens, like a betrayal, that can sour the relationship permanently (though some manage to make yogurt), but the normal ups and downs of a relationship are perfectly natural and worth the ride.
Posted by Caitlin on 07/07/2007 at 05:28pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
PT wrote: You are just going to have to trust me that my husband could care less what I write here. If he cared, he would not have married me becuse I did it through our whole courtship.
How can we trust you when you don't have a clue what's going on in your marriage? Your husband has one foot inside of divorce's doorstep and all you can do is nostalgically pine away for his acceptance during your *courtship*. OMG. Unbelievable. Perhaps he thought a master's thesis would end when one gets a degree, not go on for the whole lifetime, nor be published in a public forum (as if any of his friends, co-workers read your thesis) — Ask him. Don't assume.
And commiserating to your friends over tea and crumpets is not the same level of 'public' as putting it all out on this here blog. Those in the comments who are cheerleading you along, are in effect, rubbernecking — they want to see some good drama (whichever it goes), so of course they want you to keep posting.
I'm astounded by what must be either naivete or out-and-out narcissism. Your husband is a person too: perhaps you all should get a caretaker for your kid so that your husband can go fulfill some of his own dreams and not just defer to yours.
(sorry if it hurts, a chat with girlfriends would be less hurtful than a stranger's jabs.)
Posted by SK on 07/07/2007 at 06:40pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Seriously…not to pile on or anything, but it sounds like your husband is not the only one who "never changes". You're still doing what you did 15 – or whatever – years ago, right? Seems to me that you both need to let go of who you *where* when you met and introduce yourselves to who you are *now*.
Posted by marsha on 07/07/2007 at 07:12pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Thanks for this post. It was a little more personal than I expected from a blog called the "Brazen Careerist." Though I am sorry to hear that you and your husband are having marital issues, I found your post comforting in that you are not alone.
My wife and I went to couples Counseling once. I agreed with the counselor about how we treat each other and handle conflict. My wife thought it was a total waste of time. One of the things I subscribe to when dealing with my wife and with others is to acknowledge that they mature and change regardless of whether I disagree with them or not. I love my wife because we don't always see eye-to-eye on stuff and that we both compromise to reach the a conclusion that we both can live with.
Yes, there are times we both want out AND Yes, we stay together for the sake of the kids BUT Yes, we still love each other and accept the positive ways we've grown individually and changed.
Posted by Vincent on 07/08/2007 at 10:20am | permalink | Reply to this comment
While I really appreciate the candor in this post I have to agree with Greg L. and the others who have observed that it is clear that you are emotionally abusive towards your husband. The passive aggressiveness is also laid out bare for the world to see. I think you have to know these things because you've gone to so much trouble to lay them out. It would be one thing if you were in a D/s relationship where your husband enjoyed this sort of humiliation and power trip, but from the post it seems he is not really into that, it seems he was honestly trying to help you and your children by taking care of the children while you worked on your career and he was not intending for this to be turning over all power in the relationship to one person.
Posted by Dave Myers on 07/09/2007 at 06:19am | permalink | Reply to this comment
One additional note, it's unfair IMO to be blaming your autistic son for the problems in your marriage. Your son is not the source of troubles in your marriage and it is terribly unfair, selfish and abusive towards him to be pining blame on him.
Posted by Dave Myers on 07/09/2007 at 06:22am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
After being away for the last half of last week I returned to see this post. I understand your situation.
Life is though thing but even more so when there is so much demand for our time and our attention. Having a good career, a good marriage, and raising children (let alone one with special needs) is about the toughest thing a person can do and places tremendous strain on a person.
To the commenter just prior to me who is so quick to beat you up for mentioning your son as a potential source of the trouble – children with Autism require A LOT of work and attention in order to achieve developmental progress. I don’t think you literally mean to hold it against your son but rather the demands his needs place on the marriage.
People who have never been married, had kids, or had to care for an autistic child have no right to criticize your actions or thoughts.
As far as those so eager to criticize your candor – I think it is fantastic. I actually just had a conversation with my mother-in-law this weekend about her generation grew up in an environment where they were told to not talk about certain things. She also told me about how impressed she was that my wife (her daughter) and I can have such open and frank conversations. She also thanked us for teaching her that it is ok to speak your mind and to not give a damn about what other people think of you.
So I think your openness is a good thing for you, your family, and the readers of this blog. It allows you to unload. It gives your readers insight into your humanity and maybe even allow them to relate to you on a new level. It lets readers unload advice in the form of comments (good and bad).
I won’t offer any advice as I am currently dealing with slightly similar situation (though sometimes is comforting to know you’re not alone). I wish you and your family all the best.
Fight the good fight and fight hard.
Posted by Jaerid on 07/09/2007 at 08:25am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Whoa, Dave! I find nothing in the post that says “Hubby and I would have a great marriage right now if not for…”
A special need child is tremendously difficult. There is no break. You can not hire the teenager across the street to sit for a couple hours. There can be issues with travel and vacations. Other parents do not want to be involved; their kids do not want to be involved. Oh, and task continues until..?
Posted by Greg on 07/09/2007 at 09:52am | permalink | Reply to this comment
oh my gosh, Penelope I am so so very very sorry. You deserve compassion not a bunch of dumbass advice that may or may not work. Everyone, every marriage is different.
I am so sorry though.
I have been through a divorce, btw, for what it's worth.
10 years ago.
Anyway, I am so very sorry and your family (and you two) will be in my prayers.
Posted by finance girl on 07/09/2007 at 01:48pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hi Penelope …
Well, as pretty much everyone here has said, I admire your (and also your husband's) courage to be so openly honest about going to a marriage counselor. I don't have any advice .. to the contrary, I guess I maybe need some _good_ advice.
Marriage definitely is hard. I am from South-east Asia, and I was raised in a culture where splitting up was not an option. But as I have had to change several aspects of mental models over time, maybe this aspect would change too … My wife and I have never been able to spend much time together, procastinating a life together so we could work on our careers. However, contrary to most stereotypical scenarios, I _did_ try to change my career in a way that enable us to start building a married life together, since my wife's career options were more inflexible. I had to compromise my career with the hope that a better family life would be more than worth the compromise. However, that did not work as I expected, and so I decided to focus on my career after that. We have not split up really, but I have all but given up.
My present workplace encourages long-term professional development and mentorship, and a mentor of mine suggested I think really hard about my personal life plans before making up my mind about some of my professional plans. That got me thinking about a few things:
First, I realized that focusing on my career gives me a sense of security, control and being appreciated that I do not/did not get from my marital life. It also gives me a slight pang of guilt, and I sometimes worry if I am doing the right thing. Is my "extra-marital affair" with my professional life okay? I know that if I were not married, or if I did not have this problem with my married life, I would not place so much value on my professional life and its achievements. What do you think ..??
Secondly, I have not discussed any of this yet with anyone at my workplace. I am good at what I do, I maintain a good demeanor irrespective of my marital situation, and when asked about my plans of getting together with my wife, I tell people that we should be able to do that in about a year or so. Is it advisable to discuss marital problems at work? I have always felt that it's not. What have you seen in this regard …??
Anyways, once again – all the best with your counseling.
* * * * * *
This is a good question, and I hate to tell you that it depends on the circumstance, but it does. I have to talk about marital problems here because I rant all the time about how people need to have careers encourage keeping their families together. It would be totally inauthentic of me to not admit I'm having trouble. If I blogged about new programming languages or something like that, I wouldn't write about my marriage.
At work, a good rule of thumb is to be yourself but don't be annoying. It's a fine line for all of us. Even those of us who think we are not in the least bit annoying, because of course, we all are. You also need to make sure that if things are falling apart at home so much that things are falling apart at work that you tell your boss. You want to make sure people understand there is a significant cause for you falling apart and that you are not falling apart becuase, for example, you don't care.
Good luck!
Penelope
Posted by Anshuman Singh on 07/09/2007 at 03:42pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, count me as one of the many who are grateful for your brave honesty in blogging about your marriage counseling.
I hope you guys rediscover–or are able to replant–some of the love once there.
Divorce is tough on adults, too, although today there is a backlash feeling that we should somehow only consider the kids.
It is not fun having a single parent, maybe, but it's often not fun being one, either.
Your lives sound tough already. Even if you eventually split up, you'll still be connected through the kids…pretty much forever. Please find ways to be kind, maybe even a little generous, to each other. And best wishes!
Posted by Paula on 07/10/2007 at 12:35am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hey Penelope,
Just to add my comments to the blog…
I still believe keeping the details of the marriage problems to yourselves would be best at least until some positive progress is made or if the other way, no bashing of the other. One of the topics of the next counselling session should be how does your husband feel about the discussions of his unemployment, marriage problems, etc. on line for all to see. Many times a counselling session will bring out what someone really feels. Many times men will say things are ok with them, but they really are not. It may not bother them so much, each individual event, but the little events add up. I would check with him again and ask for an honest answer with the counselor present, not alone at home where you may be accustomed to holding back. Did he ever tell you in private before the counseling session that people think you abuse him? Did you ever tell him in private before that people told you you should leave him? These things often don't come out until a mediator/counselor is present.
Men don't like their wives talking about their problems with others outside of the family. Saying men talk about sports, women about their marriages does not make things equal. Some marriage counselors will tell you that complaining about one's marriage to others (not professionals) is a form of unfaithfulness. My experience from observing and listening to men and women alike is that complaining to others outside the marriage does not bring the couple closer but tends to alienate more.
I think it would be interesting for your husband to write a guest article on your next blog to give his perspectives on what is going on. Maybe he prefers not, but all we know is what you write about how he feels, nothing directly from the source. A lot of problems in marriages come from believing you know what the other thinks / wants / needs. After many years we fall into traps of just letting things progress on their own without realizing we are changing. Too many assumptions about the other. Unless your husband is a saint, he is probably like many other good men: he needs respect and he probably needs to get away from home to work so he can feel good about himself. The world around us does not respect men who stay at home. It's unfortunate, but true. Women who say "what a great dad" to the man will often say behind his back "look how hard the wife needs to work to support her family." "he must be lazy or a deadbeat."
As another poster said: Get some professional care for your son and let your husband find a job away from home. Try to identify when the problems started in your marriage. Was it when you both decided to find alternate careers? Was it sooner? Kids are not the marriage. You take on the responsibility of caring for them when you decided to have them. But kids are a part of the family. A child centered marriage will begin to crumble if the husband and wife don't fix their relationship problems first. Somehow it seems that if both spouses are happy with each other then most of the time the kids seem to be taken care of and are happy also.
Posted by gt on 07/10/2007 at 11:15am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hey I just wanted to wish you all the best through these tough times. My thoughts are with you. Regards.
Posted by No_one_you_know on 07/10/2007 at 02:14pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Good luck, Penelope. It sounds like a very stressful situation for both you and your husband, and I hope you both are able to care for yourselves and your son, and ultimately, for each other and your family as a whole.
Posted by Liza on 07/10/2007 at 03:12pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Dear Penelope,
Thank you so much for your honesty and candor. You are great at giving voice to the human struggle. I'm 25 and started reading your column mostly for the (great) career advice. I really appreciate your personal columns about your children and marriage as well, because they are very human and relatable. I struggle with feeling lonely, down and, stressed from being unemployed for 9 months and counting. Are problems may be quite different, but to discuss them and address them is probably the best choice. To see someone as successful as yourself discuss their personal situations, has helped me see that my problems are more universal than I make them out to be.
Thanks again. Best wishes.
Posted by Alexandra on 07/11/2007 at 02:51am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I have to echo Mike Berry – this is a time when you should also be respectful of your husband and keep these sessions confidential. Brushing it off with a "he knew what he was getting into" shows a lack of respect.
As another comment already pointed out, you showed your judgment at the start of your post with "He never changes." Maybe he just never changes into what you want him to be.
You also mentioned you delegated finding a counselor because you were too busy with work – another red light because it shows your priorities in this situation. You then belittle his choice of mediator a proof that you should never delegate – a further dismissal of him and his role in your marriage.
I read your blog for its excellent career advice but I don't want to partake in someone else's private life, especially such a one-sided view of it. This post seriously makes me consider whether I will continue reading.
Posted by Fiona on 07/11/2007 at 08:47am | permalink | Reply to this comment
You should add "marriage" to your list of Categories in the right-hand nav. It's telling that you have parenting in there and not marriage, though you write about marriage often
* * * * *
Genius comment. Thanks. It is true that the categories are so revealing about how I am doing my life. You'll know I've made progress when I've made category changes :)
–Penelope
Posted by The Cartographist on 07/11/2007 at 12:09pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I've been reading your column/blog for years now – I feel like I've been through both your pregnancies with you. But I've not been touched like I was by your column about Marriage Counseling.
We also have autisim in the family. My stepson has Aspergers with the addition of bipolar. Stepdaughter is PDD-NOS with strong bipolar. Hubby is bipolar with Aspergery tendencies.
The stress broke up hubby's 1st marriage. Has certainly tested ours. Hubby also tried to be the at-home caretaker. In our case, having him as caretaker didn't work well, as he can't provide the structure needed. He's still at home with the kids (now 24 & 20). Son is in a work-transition program. Daughter just moved in (her independent life was not working out) and will be getting her GED and then going to beauty school – she loves creative hair coloring.
It sounds like your hubby is also an artistic soul. Maybe being the at-home parent isn't a good fit for him or else he needs help. If your son has full-blown autism, hubby can't care for him, the other kid and the house. It's too much.
Look into respite care, housekeeping care. You live in a college town, right? Make friends with someone in whatever dept has social work classes – you may get some referrals for programs or even just someone who can give him an occasional break.
Thank you for sharing this part of your life. I understand that it may make others uncomfortable, but as you said, it's all part of balancing career and life.
Posted by Patty on 07/11/2007 at 01:32pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
My comment is more about privacy than about your "situation."
How do you feel sharing such details (that many [most?]) people will consider private on the blog?
* * * * * * *
Check out my responses to comments above. I wrote a little treatise on this topic within the comments section.
–Penelope
Posted by Anton Chuvakin on 07/11/2007 at 01:34pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Naked blogging at its finest. I admired you before I read this and now I am in awe.
Best of luck to you in navigating this treacherous territory.
Posted by Mir on 07/12/2007 at 01:01pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I saw this post on reddit, and that was the first I'd heard of your blog. Now I'm reading it every day because I want to find out what happens with your husband!! I realize that some of these commenters are correct that keeping this private may be better for your marriage. But now we are all invested and I for one will be honest about my shameless desire for gossip! Besides, I am a romantic and I really want to see this work out.
I am in a very happy relationship right now, and I couldn't imagine a better life-teammate than my boyfriend. But I know that at some point my "perfect" relationship will start running into problems. I worry about how I will handle these things, especially since I can barely think of any examples of long-term marriages that I'd want to emulate. Also, I know that I'm somewhat selfish, impatient, and unwilling to compromise (gen-Y traits?) In today's world it's so easy to do whatever we want all the time, it's almost amazing that people still get married at all.
Anyway I'm rooting for you and I really want to see some frequent updates on the blog! :)
Posted by Amy on 07/13/2007 at 04:25am | permalink | Reply to this comment
This was a troubling post for me to read. I have admired how you integrate stories about your inevitably imperfect life into your career stuff. It isn't pat and prepackaged, and it is gutsy. Life and work do intertwine, and you face up to the conflicts between them better than anyone else I read.
At the same time, maybe because your openness invites people to develop a sense of investment in your life, I cringed when I read this post. It feels like an overconfident and distracted Casey Jones heading at overspeed around the curve and right into a huge train wreck.
I would urge you to revisit with your husband whether he still has no qualms about having his life recounted through your eyes. Marriage is a process, not a fixed contract, and what worked for him fifteen years ago might not work today. As a male, I would have been a lot more comfortable at age 25 having my sexual prowess captured in an academic thesis than I would be at 40 having my career and marriage failures exposed to an audience of hundreds of thousands. I'm not your husband, and I know I don't know how he feels, but there are some markers here that maybe you need to be extra careful not to assume you know how he feels today.
Best of luck to you and your husband both. I sincerely hope you work through this and things go brilliantly.
* * * * * * *
Believe me, it wasn't his sexual prowess. But it's interesting that you'd assume that.
-Penelope
Posted by oldguy on 07/14/2007 at 11:57am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I actually had a conversation with my husband about this topic today and he agreed that this is and can be a public topic. Every marriage has troubles and every couple can benefit from your experience. If your husband knew what he was getting into when he married you, then this topic is fair game.
P.S. Thanks for the submission to the carnival
Posted by Pickel on 07/14/2007 at 09:30pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
My sense is that you have a hard time with compromise. I can empathize because compromise to me often feels like failure.
I have had to look at it as developing a plan for a win-win experience for both people. I admire your writing and your blog and appreciate that you are sharing this difficult situation with total strangers.
Good luck!
Posted by leslie on 07/15/2007 at 01:40pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I appreciate that you are willing to show the public that you have problems like the rest of us. I appreciate your honesty, but honesty and total disclosure aren't synonymous. I agree with an earlier poster that mediation is a private process and that needs to be respected. Even if your husband doesn't care what you put on the blog, how can you be sure that his apathy isn't a symptom of something else and not just a stance in and of itself?
Moreover, when and if your husband decides to go back to work, what effect will your blog have on his professional life? How will he be judged for your words? You don't have to gag yourself
but sharing details of what occurs in a private session is unfair and disrepectful to the process and your relationship. It can also provide fodder for "haters" to use against you as you grow in popularity. Practicing discretion now on your way up can save you a lot of trouble later on.
I have been married for 7 years with 3 kids and it has been really challenging. At the same time, in order for my marriage to work I have had to really face and change my own ideas/ fantasies about what relationships should be and how they should work and what all that means. I have learned that commitment, respect, patience and communication really help alot. Also accepting my partner as is. Realize that the stuff that bothers me most about him is really a projection of what bothers me about myself. Also, that marriage is a continual work in progress.
All that said I hope things can work out for you and hubby.
Posted by nikki on 07/16/2007 at 03:03pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I like your therapy doc. I tell people that it's like finding an AA meeting you'll like. You have to keep trying us until you get the right one (one that knows what he/she is doing). Good luck.
Posted by therapydoc on 07/16/2007 at 11:00pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
As always, your honesty and willingness to share your life are amazing.
You already know that I and your other friends are here to support you whenever you need it. The only wisdom I can provide is this:
You just go on. No matter how helpless or frustrated you may feel, no matter how much you rage or despair, the days will pass one by one. And at the end, you will still need to endure. And hopefully win.
Posted by Chris Yeh on 07/17/2007 at 12:34pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
"Believe me, it wasn’t his sexual prowess. But it’s interesting that you’d assume that."
You wrote this:
"[W]hen my husband met me I was writing my master’s thesis about my sex life. In real time."
Given that you were writing about your sex life, which seemed to require his waiving any privacy interests on intimate issues, and since the relationship progressed, I did blithely assume he got good reviews.
I stand corrected. I'm not seeing how it moves your marriage counseling forward to make it clear to your blog readership that my positive assumptions were way off base, but it's really not my concern. In retrospect, I should never have written anything.
It's your life. I will butt out. Best of luck to both of you.
Posted by oldguy on 07/18/2007 at 09:02am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
If you really want to save your marriage, then listen to the "oldguy" (along with many others). No husband can tolerate this continued public emasculation.
If this is a career move, then you don't need any advice. You are playing this perfectly. When he finally gets the guts to pull the trigger (nobody goes to mediation on accident), you are going to have an enormous amount of new material to write about.
Posted by Kent on 07/18/2007 at 08:46pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Some things are better kept to yourself.
Posted by Steve on 07/19/2007 at 06:01pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
He should wait a while so you can become more successful and he can get more child support!
Posted by Steve on 07/19/2007 at 06:04pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Thank you for sharing about your marriage. I read your post below and thought you might enjoy re-reading it – there is a lot of love there.
A Valentine for my husband
In honor of Valentine’s Day, this is a love letter to my husband. But apparently, he is too busy to read my column, so he won’t see the letter.
The last time I complained about his disinterest, he said, “Okay, fine, read me your columns.”
So I read a column out loud to him. And in the middle of it, he fall asleep.
To test him, I said, “So, what do you think?”
He jerked his head up, like a college kid in an 8 am class, and he said, “Uh. It got slow after the first couple of paragraphs.”
Fortunately, my affection for my husband isn’t based on his listening skills. I love him for other reasons, including his fearlessness when it comes to changing careers. He isn’t afraid to reinvent himself professionally so that he always does something he finds interesting. His excitement about his work makes our life together more fun.
My husband’s first job was as a composer. When he was ten. For most kids this wouldn’t be a job, but his parents couldn’t afford a private school in Los Angeles, so my husband got a scholarship to a top-tier school for his musical talents.
In college, he decided that to be a great composer you need to have something very new to say, and he did not have something that new to say about music. So he quit music.
He went to film school and earned spending money by editing soft-core porn: “The Magic Blanket Bikini.” (He says it was very, very, soft because the star announced midway through filming that she wouldn’t take her clothes off.) He made video art for his master’s thesis, and his work became so well known that it is part of the curricula at UCLA’s film school.
But he grew tired of the film industry after one too many Magic Blankets. So when he graduated, he took a job designing video games. He learned to say Ka-pow! and Ouch! in four languages, and he got to wheel and deal with big budgets from major gaming companies.
I married a game designer with a penchant for piano and a portfolio of films that featured ex-girlfriends being constrained. (“The director,” he explained, “always dates the actress.”)
On September 11, my husband found himself looking over me, dust-covered and shaken in a hospital bed. Suddenly, he wanted to save the world. He became an unpaid volunteer for nonprofits until one hired him. Now he helps prisoners establish safe, fulfilling lives when their sentence is up. His job would stretch my patience (admittedly, thin) to its limits.
My husband drives his parents nuts: “We drove to all those music lessons and then you go to film school!… We paid for five years of film school and you make video games!” He drives my parents nuts, too: “What is his job? Video is not a job!… Volunteering is not a job!” But my husband’s approach to work makes me excited; Members of my family picked a career and stuck with it forever, even when they stopped being fun.
Our careers are not who we are. But what we choose to do with our days reflects our values. I picked a partner who tolerate being bored or uninspired, and his standards for life encourage me to raise my own. His career choices also reveal a bigger heart than I saw when I married him – except when it comes to reading my columns
Posted by Andrew on 07/26/2007 at 02:39pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This post has me conflicted. (I'm a woman, with a man's name, for gender reference.)
It was interesting and enlightening to see what you'd posted about your counseling. Having gone through one divorce after counseling, and now married again (all by the tender age of 30), it was eye-opening to read your post – as examples of what I should not do.
So, from someone who has seen her own marriage go awry, I'll point out a few things I have learned. Please note that I can only go from what you've written – I have no sense of his feelings, etc. I'm also not an advocate of one person over another.
1) Try never to take each other for granted. Try to treat the person you are married to as if they are a slightly new person all the time. Sure you've had experiences with them, but they are allowed to change. And that means he is allowed to feel differently about you posting about the marriage counseling meeting than about everything else you've ever posted about.
2) Defensive behavior gets you nowhere. It seems you are feeling very defensive about the experience. When he stated that people have said you are abusing him, you seemed to need to come back and attack. However, it might have been hard for him to be open about the abuse…and your defensiveness and need to "tit for tat" him are not conducive to rebuilding. This is a HARD thing for partners to navigate, so take it slowly.
3) Encourage honesty. His being open about how he feels is one step…but it seems that it is just happening now. Encourage many more questions. Encourage him to feel however he wants and to express it to you. It obviously sidelined you that he was possibly looking for a divorce. This is where things are breaking down – he obviously doesn't feel he can tell you things or how he's feeling – not for real. Perhaps he also feels differently about your posts too. It is good to take some time together and revisit the decisions made about how the marriage works and touch base about how both of you feel. Some revelations will surely come up here.
4) It takes two. Success or Failure, it takes two in everything. Each of you is contributing to the pain, and each of you contributes to the success. You state that he never changes, but do you change? Failure to communicate takes two parties. Difficulty in interaction takes two. When coming forth with an issue or something that has upset you, realize that you had a part in it, and try to always think and include your part.
Those are just the few things I use to navigate my relationship – which, sans the children, is very like your own in form. However, I grew up with a severely handicapped sister, and my parents split up as well..so I know the difficulty that presents.
Good luck!
Posted by Lane on 07/26/2007 at 04:02pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Looks like this guy had something to say about your article: http://nervullblog.blogspot.com
It is the "Demise of an idealist" post
Posted by blogreader on 08/05/2007 at 05:08pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Thank you for writing from the heart. You need to be with people who will support you.
I think the members of the choir here assembled judging you for being who you are really don't want to be in this blog anyway. (to that side of the room: are you people lost? this is a career blog. If you don't believe women should be successful and have a career, you have a right to your opinion but there are lots of other webpages for you to read. Go churn some butter or whatever it is you people do for fun…)
You're an inspiration and again thanks for the work you do. Best wishes.
Posted by king spadina on 08/07/2007 at 12:23am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Today being 9/11 and appropriately raining through very grey skies here in NY, I feel like an emotional sea of sentiments. I accidentally fell into your blog on 9/11 and I guess it was fate because it brought me to reading more on your challenges… Marriage/Career. I applaud you with sincerety. I cannot describe how alone I have felt these past several months in silence of what I am really going through in my marriage. It is indeed a dark and very lonely place because is simply not a topic woman and men feel can be shared with one another… At least not completely open … Let alone discuss with friends or family. And people just don't ask, "Hi. How are you? And well, how is your marriage these days?"… At times, I wish someone (who is genuine of course) would ask me. At least if I'm asked, I have an opportunity to respond. I wish there were more Penelope's out there; the world lacks such realism and sincerety.
I am a mother of two precious and energetic boys; an almost 14 yr old and an almost 5 yr old. I married the first man I truly and sincerely fell head over hears over… I mean, this was true love to me, the kind of love that is described in some of the greatest shakespeares, novels or one's dreams. The kind of love that you feel you cannot live without. This at the age of nearly 18 and married before my 20th birthday and gave birth to my son before my 21st birthday …. All while I was self employed at even such a young age.
I can try to summarize my story book …. The first 5 yrs of our marriage, my husband left me approximately 5 times. First time nearly 5 months after having exchanged vows and while pregnant… He was having an affair. I found out because the silly man kept some kind of journal about her in his work bag and of course I found it. I was suicidal for months. And again years later. Oh, he came back to me and my pregnant belly after having seperated immediately for abt 3 months… But left again the following summer. And each summer after that for a few years. It took me a while to realize that what he was doing is leaving me during beach season. But to summarize this a bit (sorry, im really trying)… We married way too young! And being in love blinds us to a certain degree. It's the truth! It blinds us to everything and anything outside of that passionate love we feel! I didn't look at the things that would later affect our marriage. So after a number of his back and forth and disrupting our first born's life each time… I forgave him. We've been married now nearly 15 years. And I am 34 years old. I don't think that I truly forgave him for everything I blamed him for that took place in the first 10 yrs of our marriage until perhaps nearly 5 years ago. After the birth of our 2nd son. What I wanted to share is that throughout the past 17 yrs of my life with him, I have been truly in and out of love with him. I mean, as I already mentioned, I feel I'm an expert at knowing what is… So I know the feelings! But this year, he lost his job in January and didn't find a job until some time in June (which I helped find through an acquaintance!) … This "job" was supposed to be temporary since it offers no benefits, etc! It is now September and honestly, I have never seen him open a newspaper to look at job listings! I feel myself beginning to rant and I don't want to get off the point of this…
… Penelope, my life feels like it is half full. I really enjoy my job, (I sold my small business 7 yrs into my marriage and now work for a firm in nyc),I adore my children more than anything, my boys are healthy and happy boys, my mother and my father are alive and well, but my marriage feels empty. It's not just the fact that he is not working in a "somewhat permanent position"… It's his lack of ambition to want more for us as a family (we rent a house, don't own a car, don't travel much) and even so much more.
I'm feeling so tired these days because the silence has been getting to me. No one knows (well, now I guess readers may know) and no matter how many times he and I talk "about things", after 3 days it is all the same crap!
I'm interested in knowing how you and your husband are these days. You last wrote about this in July. Has therapy helped?
I think I am going to search for a mediator. If it is love that is the basis and necessity in order to save a marriage… I have that for him. And I know he does for me as well.
It was fate turning on my pc today and landing in your blogs. May you have a peaceful day today and may you and your family continue to be blessed with the love that resides in your circle.
Warmest regards,
Gen
Posted by Geny on 09/11/2007 at 11:04am | permalink | Reply to this comment
If you haven't accessed Robert F Kennedy's research on autism, I highly recommend it – see articles on his site at http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/articles.html, one at the Boston Globe at http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/07/01/autism_mercury_and_politics/ and also the organization http://www.generationrescue.org/ and treatment profiles on Mothering Mag at http://www.generationrescue.org/mothering.html
Finally, I highly recommend your husband go back to work, since we all get critical validation from our careers.
Posted by Dan McCrea on 09/11/2007 at 03:14pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Wow, Penelope. Now this is some personal stuff. I thank you for putting it out there.
Let me tell you what I think. Take it or leave it.
Your career is more important to you than your husband or your child. If your child didn't have Autism it would be hard enough to balance your career with the child, but an Autistic child requires more than one parent.
Just because you and your husband decided that he would be the one to stay home, doesn't mean that you get to run off and have this wonderful work life. Sorry, but maybe you must forgo your speaking engagements and not post on the blog quite as often. If you want to work things out with you husband, you'll either have to institutionalize the child, a choice which doesn't have to be as evil as it sounds, or cut way back on your slightly self serving public career.
I'm sure that Mr. Trunk isn't completely innocent in all this, but imagine if the roles were reversed tomorrow and you were no longer Penelope Trunk, but your real self, alone in a home with an Autisic child. Now, imagine that was your only reality for next week, next month, next year…
It might be tough to worry about a marriage.
Posted by klein on 09/11/2007 at 03:18pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hello, a little late, but still …
Just a comment from the Swiss cottage game industry (there is no other). After working in Germany as a programmer in computer games, I founded my one-woman company this year (you can read about my experiences in my not-this-big-yet blog at http://gluggergames.kahlina.com/blog/). With the possibility of networked teams and affordable game engines it has never been so easy to produce a game. And because casual and serious games are on the raise, there are a lot of possibilities. Games for autistic children for example. Just a thought. And no I have no child, much less an autistic one. But I really think this is scalable. From doing it solo (like I do), to finding a team and just doing a part.
Dragica Kahlina
Posted by Re-posting an accidentally deleted comment on 09/12/2007 at 12:02am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I definitely wish the husband and you the best. I do, however, strongly feel that making your marriage problems a public affair will definitely hurt any chance you have at reconciliation. I'm sure your husband feels he takes the backseat to your ventures, and putting this blog on the net for everyone and their brother to read reaffirms that. I never wish anyone ill tidings, so I strongly suggest you keep things of this nature out of the public eye and reserved only for your family. Otherwise, you are only proving that you are the important one and give him no reason to want to make it work out.
Posted by Phil on 09/13/2007 at 04:34pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I navigated to this thread through a series of your older blogs and I hope this isn't addressing too stale of a topic. However, the question I'll pose is this: Do you behave differently towards your husband and your relationship having discussed it openly on your blogs, than you would have if you had not? If the answer is no, then I would ask "Are you sure?". Sometimes the things that we need to say to our spouse so that it can get resolved with our spouse get said to other people instead, and then those topics never get dealt with directly. It's not about what he wants or doesn't want, it's about what's said and not said to each other. Writing it to all of us is not the same as saying it to him.
Another way to say this is – what's good for your blog may not be good for your relationship, regardless of how you may feel about it. I think the earlier posts about it being ok for us to hear about it afterwards but not during the act, reflect this thinking. Does saying it on the blog impact the outcome? In science, great care is taken to make sure the act of measuring something does not effect the outcome of what's being measured. I think the same thing can be asked here.
I've been married for 23 years. I've found that sometimes I've needed to talk to other people about issues in my relationship, but mostly I just need to talk to the other person in the relationship about the issue.
Posted by Alan on 10/09/2007 at 03:39pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Thanks for this post. I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry for myself too because my marriage of six years is about as satisfying as quadruple bypass surgery (where the patient dies on the table). Staying together just for the kids is one of the saddest necessary evils in the world (at least that I've experienced so far).
Posted by M.S. on 10/22/2007 at 10:26pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
You don't really need or want that lifestyle, it might hurt y'all slowly more…….Just tell him you
don't wanna repeat something your not too proud of z7uas.
Posted by Buselaulley on 10/30/2007 at 02:21pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
wow man, good luck. If this fails and you still need help theres a guide on this blog thats suppose to be really good even if counseling fails. You can check it out here:
http://www.helpsavemarriagenow.blogspot.com
Godd luck.
Posted by sam higgins on 11/12/2007 at 12:29am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, if you stay together because of the children, either one of you or both of you can feel like victims–jailed and tortured, or you can take charge of your personal life and your happiness and make your relationship better than ever.
A mediator is not the person to talk with if you want to put your relationship back together. In fact, and unfortunately, even psychologists, counselors and social workers are too often ready to surrender. We live in a disposable society: if it needs fixing, replace it.
Find yourself a professional who spends most of his or her time saving marriages. You want someone who is committed to family and marriage.
I wish you success on your journey.
Warm regards,
Frank Gunzburg
Posted by Frank Gunzburg on 11/30/2007 at 12:57am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I recommend The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands. It saved my marriage and my neighbors also. My niece read it and her husband is so happy. It will take an open mind to get through the first chapter, but I guarantee if you try what it recommends even for a week you'll see a huge difference. Don't let your marriage go without a fight, in the end it's even more important than your child (sounds crazy I know). And your child will benefit when you save your marriage also.
Posted by April Myers on 12/11/2007 at 12:13pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Dear Penelope and others: If your marriage is in real trouble, "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" might not be enough. I don't know how to say this without referring to myself, but you might want to go to http://www.marriage-counselor-doctor.com and look over the material related to my books, "Saving Your Marriage" and "How to Survive an Affair".
I mention this because it has been so heartwarming to read and hear the wonderful feedback from couples who have used my programs.
All my best wishes to all of you for turning your relationships around and creating wonderful marriages.
Posted by Frank Gunzburg on 12/17/2007 at 10:14pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Somehow I lost being connected to you but have happily returned…how else would I know what 20 somethings think ?I didn't have the patience to read all bout your marriage but I guess it is still going on. Think you both should "table it " for a time to grow up a little. You think you have problems now….just realistically imagine the next ten years fighting, divorced or separated. BUT, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ARE YOUR CHILDREN
Posted by katherine stephens on 01/22/2008 at 05:02pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Your post is really brave. I enjoyed reading your article: Do you think you’re a strategist? You’re probably wrong. I believe effective marriage counselling should attempt to turn all parties involved into temporary visionaries / strategists. In my view the construct strategist is not only a fixed fact for the INTJ types. Even Jung tried to develop his other (shadowy) ego functions. In your own words “Strategists usually favor thinking about the future instead of the present; strategists I admire are bored by what is and focus on what could be”. Best wishes on visualizing / strategizing a future that will be the best for everyone involved. From http://www.marriage-counselling.org
Regards.
A counsellor
Posted by Ria on 02/01/2008 at 08:05pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
Best of luck to you with your marriage counseling. I hope you guys are still going and have found a way to rekindle the love. It's not an easy process. I hope you'll explore individual therapy as well, as I have found it to be very valuable in my own life.
Sincerely,
Chris H.
Posted by Chris H. on 03/04/2008 at 04:59pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'm about to start marriage counseling. I have no idea what it'll be about (besides us, of course) so I googled the topic and clicked this link as my first. Thankfully. Your post and the comments reaffirm my gut feeling that this new difficult phase of our marriage is simply part of our path. Troubles come, annoyances occur, life continues to dominate with constant struggles–and in the end, we (as with you and your husband) can count on the fact that we will make this work because there is no other desireable option. We will forever learn to continue together. Thanks for setting the Good Example by being honest and real.
Posted by xpp on 04/15/2008 at 09:52am | permalink | Reply to this comment
As I sit here, on a Sunday morning and Google "when your husband adds nothing to the marriage" (because my own marriage is a mess), I ran into this. I searched for the follow up, and am sorry to read that you and your husband were unable to save your marriage. I found it interesting that so many people felt your marriage topic should have been moved "off line". I, for one, am glad to see it "on line". Marriage is a ton of work!! I think every marriage is a ton of work not just mine. What I feel is lacking in mine is the TWO people working together. I feel like my husband needs a buddy and a mother, but not a love interest, wife or a partner in life…. and have said so each time we've seen a different marriage therapist (to date 3).
This probably won't be a popular piece either, but I feel in todays society marriage between 2 people who both contribute equal incomes and have equal job titles requires equal personal stregnth should bring their best as often as humanly possible home. When the woman shares the outside of the home pressures she shouldn't have to shoulder the majority of the inside home pressures also. For me, it's become a matter of "what are you adding here?" when I think about my husband. As I said it's Sunday morning (afternoon really, but I'm still in my jammies)and I've done 2 loads of laundry, made the kids homemade waffles, fit in 2 graph charts showing recent growth at work and cleaned up the kitchen all while he has gotten up, watched a movie, ate from a box of cereal, then disappeared back to bed for the last 2 hours. Hummmmm, how about a smile? assistance with breakfast? helping me with one of the charts (as I asked)? a hello to our son? or even a "I'm still tired, I'm going back to bed" comment? Nope, nada, I'm wondering how many hours of sleep does he need this weekend? He's working on 12 so far. To think, I'm still not wanting jumping for joy at the thought of divorce.
Anyway, after my venting, I'll get back to my comment. Keep being real, there are other real people out here that find comfort in knowing, we are not alone! (and I've heard him say that I emotionally abuse him and I should get rid of him…..)
My best. I've saved your blog to read for a later time. The house has to be cleaned sometime (and by me!).
Posted by Lynn on 04/20/2008 at 01:17pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope:
I thought I was effed up. My wife is awesome, but being a stay at home dad blows. Toss in an autistic son and a wife who is more in love with herself and her career than her husband or kid, and I'd be in a home.
Has he considered anti-depressants? Otherwise, he should be gone,baby gone.
Posted by John Cannon on 06/07/2008 at 06:45pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Interesting story. Marriage counseling can be tough, and you really bared all here.
There are some good websites for marriage counseling without going to see someone.
Posted by Marriage problems on 07/08/2008 at 07:14pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Wow, over the top blog post
Posted by Marital Problems on 07/08/2008 at 08:16pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
I am so sorry for what you are going through but it still sounds like there is hope for you guys. So many people in similar situations have saved their marriages using the Marriage Fitness Tele-Boot Camp Program. I hope you'll Save your marriage give it a try!
Good luck with everything.
Posted by Save your marriage on 07/29/2008 at 05:36pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Yes I agree, there is hope. Even if things seem difficult try and remember the good times the two of you have had. I am sure that more good times are on their way. Talking about things might seem tough some times especially with what you guys are going through but there is hope.
Good luck
Posted by Brad on 01/15/2009 at 05:53pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
You know what's crazy? This is almost exactly what I have been dealing with for the past several months. Except, I'm the Dad and loving husband and Mom came to the conclusion one day that she didn't love me anymore after 8 years of marriage and 2 kids (1 autistic). She had met someone else that filled all her needs and never told me about him until it was way too late. We are finally starting marriage counseling, mostly because she finally saw this guy is not worthy of her. I've been trying to get her to go for about 5 months now. Just when I practically give up on the marriage she decides she wants to go to counseling.
She tells me she's numb to everything and to love with me, but she still says she loves me and still cuddles, etc. It's very confusing to me and has been for a long time. I am and have been seeing a counselor of my own for the past 3 months which has helped me, but now since she wants to go to marriage counseling, I am a bit off again.
Communication was our breakdown, that along with trying to do too much at one time. (Kids, family, careers)
I would love to know how things are going for you…
Posted by Allen on 02/20/2009 at 12:23pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, I just want to thank you for being so open and vulnerable in your post. I know that many people will be able to learn from what you are going through. Many blessings.
Posted by Sharon Wilson on 03/02/2009 at 09:04am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Stay with him.
Figure it out.
The best thing…sometimes…is to blame yourself.
Not in an uplifting way where you say you know you did wrong but he did too, but in a completely humbling way. Even if you're not wrong.
Try to make him happy again.
This is the saddest thing that could happen in your child s life right now. ((besides a death of course))
And it's always a terrible thing to happen between two people, when it can be worked out. Most things can. I've read you're more recent posts as well…
My belief stays consistent.
I feel bad for you husband.
I feel bad for you.
Posted by Catherine on 03/07/2009 at 10:02pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I am wasting so much of my energy worrying and fretting over what is going to happen to my marriage. I have a 4 year old and I DON'T want him to experience divorcing parents. I have a 12 year old step-daughter who already does. Her mother left my husband when she was 1 year old. I am sick and when I asked my husband if he thought counseling would help us, he replied, "I doubt it". I pray for insight and miracles. We both really can't stand each other at this point. We really don't speak and he only comes home for our son. I'm living in some form of hell.
Posted by Jane on 03/15/2009 at 11:58am | permalink | Reply to this comment
penelope.. PLEASE DON'T STOP WRITING ABOUT YOUR MARRIAGE!!! My sister is going through a seperation and I only just discovered your blog and sent it to her today. I think you are amazing and totally hilarious and could put a smile on my sisters face. so please .. don't stop!
Posted by Samantha on 04/23/2009 at 10:13am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I like you… and I like your husband. Bravo!
Posted by Kim on 05/01/2009 at 10:50pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Wow, what a story :) Right now I am into Learning Spanish Language Softwares at home to keep me entertained – we are in the same shoes…
Posted by Language Softwares on 05/14/2009 at 06:02am | permalink | Reply to this comment
marriage, such a vague idea to begin with
Posted by Michael on 06/02/2009 at 05:38pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
interesting post.
Posted by Bent on 06/03/2009 at 03:39am | permalink | Reply to this comment
great article , really loved it.
Posted by Randy on 06/04/2009 at 03:59am | permalink | Reply to this comment
good interesting post
really enjoyed it.
Posted by Brackster on 06/05/2009 at 05:44am | permalink | Reply to this comment
that was an interesting post to read.
Posted by Web Hosting on 06/05/2009 at 08:58pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
cool article , really loved it
Posted by Jer on 07/09/2009 at 07:56pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
ya that helped me a lot
Posted by Ray on 07/13/2009 at 12:06pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
really a superb article
Posted by DanielRAY on 07/26/2009 at 03:06pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I discovered you a few months ago and I can't rip my eyes away, even when I disagree. This one I sought out tonight, this morning actually, at 5.53 AM as I'm pulling myself together to face a day of building my business, be "present" for my sons, look for a job for "right now" money while I build my business, put up with their teen attitude, having just seen their grandfather, my ex's dad, show up for his once yearly visit pretending everything is okay even though his grandchildren have zero relationship with his son, their dad, and I'm facing foreclosure, short sale, bankruptcy or whatever direction I choose because his son, is completely disconnected from his children and doesn't care. The legal system is a joke. I'm done. I'm into survival mode. He'd look at it as a victory if I fell apart.
Even so, there I was with the boys making nice for their sake. I even spend holidays taking my boys to see their dad's side of the family because it seems like the right thing to do. I'm changing my mind about that right at about the 5 year mark of being divorced from him, facing all that I do.
You have a lot of ambition. You were definitely the alpha male in your relationship, yet, yet, you are the one who thinks about their violin lessons and everything else.
What the heck? Why do we buy into this? Why? Because we'd kill for our children and even the best of men, who would knock down walls for their own, can't emulate what comes naturally to a woman who is a mom.
Cindy
Posted by Cindy on 08/10/2009 at 07:12am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Some sort of marriage counseling is needed in all marriages… You just need to figure out which works best for you… Marriage counseling is always a click away..
Posted by D. James Rice on 09/04/2009 at 01:00pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Going through marriage counseling is never easy. The bottom line here is the ego of both spouses. Either one has to master the art of giving way when the situation call for it. Who says that marriage is an easy thing?
Posted by wood folding chairs on 09/16/2009 at 10:41am | permalink | Reply to this comment