Good Luck, I hope you see some light.

Interestingly the wife and I come from completely different back grounds. While I was a party animal and living with different women, she was married and raising three daughters at 21. But it’s been 11 years together now and three step daughter later and it’s going great. Why? We share the same core values, we communicate no matter how hard, and I try to understand her feelings instead of words. We have sacrificed much for our website start ups in time and money. But we love it. She is the best thing that hs happened to me.

Terry

You’re brave, Penelope, to share as much as you do. Negotiating kids and work is barely manageble some days, and keeping a marriage alive seems to turn into a third priority for so many of us. Thanks for the kick ass post, and I hope you both get what you need out of this.

Penelope,

I don’t have any advice for you because I don’t know you or your situation and would never even THINK of trying to counsel you. I offer my hope and kind thoughts that you and your hubby can work everything out.

Best Wishes, and an e-hug!

Wow, I do not think I could ever be so public or candid about my life. I sat at my desk and cried while I read it. My wife and I are struggling to stay together, are in counseling, and want to stay together. And it is really, really hard.

I just want you to know i am pulling for you and your family.

Love and prayers.

I hope you get through this difficult time, Penelope, with your marriage and sanity intact.

This is one of those instances,though, in which my pre-Internet Yankee upbringing makes me want to urge you strongly to take this discussion OFFLINE. This post may get 450,000 page views this month and will be Google cached forever.

One of the bedrocks of counseling is its confidentiality. I’m not sure what happens when one partner gets to reveal very private details in a very public forum.

I’m sure you’ve thought about this. But if it were my marriage, I would think about it again.

* * * * * * *
Hi, Mike. Thank you for your concern. Whenever I write about problems in my marriage, the men get worried for my husband. And this is what I always say: That when my husband met me I was writing my master’s thesis about my sex life. In real time. So he knew what he was getting into, and he is used to it after fifteen years.One of the reasons I’m a writer, maybe the biggest reason, is because life is pretty lonely, and I want to be doing life with other people — as part of a community. When I started writing about my life at work, I honestly  felt like I was the only person in the world who thought the workplace was totally nuts. And I found out, by writing a column, that lots of other people sat at their desk sometimes just laughing at what’s going on around them. Writing about work made me feel less lonley in the world. There are people like me.

I do hope this all works out for you and your family. I wish I had some magic cure-all advice, but, obviously, I don’t.

Sacrifice, compromise and forgiveness are hard things to achieve. One party usually feels they’ve done more than the other. Which, of course, may or may not be true. They do need to be talked about…sometimes all at once. Other times in bits and pieces over time.

I’m not pushing a book, but “The Good Life”
by Jay Mcinerney, delved into this and it was a painful, but ultimately rewarding novel about love, marriage and sacrifice. This book made me think about marriage in a different way.

I think marriage is noble and worth fighting for to keep it from breaking apart. I’m very lucky. My wife and I have been together for 17 years and we’re still in love and love to make each other laugh.

Again, I wish I had some wonderful advice–Just keep working at it and the right answer, I hope, will eventually reveal itself.

Penelope,
I’m sorry to hear that things are…not well and I do hope for the best for you, your husband and your kids. You are quite brave to share so publicly what you are going through. However, I would agree with Mike Berry (post just above) to take this “off-line” - at least until things are settled between you and your husband. You may want to revisit the idea of sharing things again.

Prayers.

“A lot of people I talk with think I should get rid of you.”

Rarely are people in an appropriate position to accurately make such a pronouncement.

Good luck to you & your husband, rarely is the grass greener.

I commend you on your candor here. It’s very brave of you. I would, however, agree with previous commenters and suggest you consider not going public any further with this. If I were going through something like this and I knew my wife would be publishing my comments and actions to so many people — some of whom must know you and your husband personally — I would not feel as free to express myself as I otherwise would, and a lack of free expression seems to be at the heart of this.

Whatever details you do decide to share with us, I will follow with interest and concern, and hope the best for you both.

* * * * * *

I sense a theme in the comments here.

Hi, Ted.  I noticed that your URL is the storytellersworkshop.com.  (I remember you from other comments — I’ve been to your blog.) I want to point out that one of the best things about storytelling is that we make sense of our lives by telling our stories to other people. Herminia Ibarra does great research in this area, and she found that people were most secure in where they are in life if they can tell stories about themselves that make sense to other people. As a writer, this really resonates with me. I am not a fan of public and private. I have found that things that I thought would be really bad to say publicly haven’t actually been bad at all. It’s just being real. We are so used to the EXPERTS never revealing anything messed up in their lives that we think that’s how it has to be. I think that striving to be authentic is most important. And it would be totally inauthentic of me to write all the time about how important family is and how careers need to leave room for family and then not reveal that I am struggling with it myself. The career equation is definitely part of the problem with my family. It’s important to write about that on a career blog if I am going to be real here. And if I’m not going to be real, I can’t be here. It’s too stressful to be something other than real.I am certain that this is a part of me that my husband values. We will pull through this bad part in our life. And part of the reason we will is because both of us are totally straight shooters. At home, in the mediator’s office, and on the blog.

Penelope

Based on the post, I wonder if your husband would have a different perspective. Especially the last part: “So he knew what he was getting into, and he is used to it after fifteen years.”

I’m sorry this is so damn hard. I hope it gets easier and happier sometime soon.

I hope it turns out for the best, for you, for the kids and for your husband. I don’t know what the best is, obviously.

I wondered if you’ve ever heard of Alison Armstrong? She is a relationship guru, and I’ve found what she has to say very helpful.

I am not married and I don’t presume to know how to make a marriage work, but I thought I would just put this out there.

I do not work for her, nor do I have any personal interest in her success, but I have found her ideas helpful.

If you’re interested, her website is http://www.understandmen.com

There are many studies recently that suggest that after a period of several years, both spouses are emotionally and financially in worse shape than when they were together. Just realize that every marriage has it’s ups and downs. We are all imperfect people put together to form an imperfect union. It takes tremendous work to keep something this complex moving. It is always worth it in the end (less abuse).

Hope everything works out well for your family.

Penelope:

Thanks for your reply.

You’re right, of course, about the value of being open about everything in our lives — the good and the bad. And of course, I agree completely in your comments on the importance of storytelling, of sharing narratives of moments in our lives as a way of digesting them, making sense of them, and gaining insights, both for ourselves and for others.

As for the directness of your honesty with each other — one observation that caught my eye in your post was how both of you, in one exchange, seemed to be speaking indirectly. He says people tell him you’re abusing him. You tell him people say you should leave him. Does he mean HE thinks you abuse him? Do you mean YOU think you should leave him? The feelings are there implicitly, but not explicitly, instead being couched as the viewpoints of these composited unnamed “people.”

I’m sure your mediator has pointed this out, or soon will. And I’m sure you don’t need my advice on how to get through this. Thanks for sharing what you’re going through, and again, I’ll be rooting for you and your family.

It’s hard to talk about your relationships openly like this, and I applaud your ability to be honest.

I wish the both of you are able to make it continue to work, and to find that common ground on which to rebuild your relationship.

Penelope if you split up you’re going to have to get full time help with the kids. So why not get it now and let him go back to work. My gut tells me that you’re right about that being a problem. So why not see if it makes a difference now when you have almost nothing to lose.

In my twenties, I recall a male corporate vice president advising me that “having it all” was typically not an option for women. He indicated if I wanted 1. to be a good wife, 2. to be a good mother and 3. to have a successful career that I should pick 2 out of the 3 and be done with it as this is the only way I could guarantee the good life.

I remember writing him off as a sexist pig, but the older I get and more demanding life becomes, I tend to agree with his point. It’s hard to maintain balance and be a success with all three. Not impossible, but your experience reinforces that one can suffer.

Of course, as women, it doesn’t prevent us from trying… this comment being written by someone with a partner, a career and motherhood on the horizon… all pursued with the hope that things will be good forever. No guarantees, but we can certainly try… right?

And when it doesn’t work, we get help. Smart of you to recognize and you’re incredibly authentic to share the struggle with your readers. Warm thoughts to you and your family.

Penelope,
My wife and I have been married 12 years, and have one child with autism and one with Asperger’s syndrome. I can relate greatly to what you have written on those challenges.

You don’t know me, and I only know you via your writing, but I would be willing to offer any advice I can on parenting autistic children. Our youngest child went from severely autistic to a point where he is a very happy, well functioning second grader.

Please feel free to email me. I’d like to help in any way I can.

Thank you for sharing this,
Bob

I’m not as modest as that guy above who said he wouldn’t think of offering advice. Actually, I’ve got a question. You describe yourself as an action-oriented take charge person and him as a more patient and orderly thinker. Way more analytic and slower to act.

So what’s the balance of power like in your house? Do you call all the shots. Or try to? Does he get a chance to have his way and say.

The other day you linked to a fight you were having about storing his bike in the kitchen and you identified the speed and approach to decision making as the major problem. Does he ever win? Or is it always a power struggle?

No answer required.

Penelope,

I appreciate your honesty. In my early 20’s, I spent a lot of time talking to married women. I walked away with the conclusion everyone’s marriage goes through time when you’d rather not be married to each other. Some people get through it and others don’t.
I have to agree with Sujatha–get away from the passive aggressive communication. My midwestern parents do that all the time. Since there are only two of them, it is really ridiculous when “somebody ate all the cookies”. I became much healthier when I quit talking like that and spoke directly with people.
Maybe spring from some coaching for your husband with David Bohl since David’s specialty is career/life balance and it sounds like your husband has some career stuff besides the family issues.

brave. honest. generous. inspiring

I am glad you shared this. The raw honesty of it all is an inspiration in itself. Thank you, and I hope things work out.

Wow Penelope. I certainly hope that, together or apart, things work out for you and your family.

When your marriage is wrong, nothing else is really right. The fact that you and your husband are such straight shooters and are inclined to deal with this seems like a good thing to me.

Best wishes to you and yours.

He asks the mediator, “How do I know if it’s love?” The mediator says, “If you care about her life, for right now, that’s enough.” Finally my husband says to me, “I’m so sorry that life is not better for you when your career is going so well. You’ve worked so hard for this.”

A friend who is a mediator sent this to me. I do not mediate divorces OR marital reconciliations. I mediate commercial cases between businesses. I HAVE, however, been divorced from a man who did not work while I was supporting the family. It didn’t work. I have, however, seen it work with other couples. To add autism to the mix is an extraordinary challenge. You seem to be good-hearted people who “love” each other, i.e., you each want what is the best for the other person as well as what’s best for yourselves. The devil is in the balance etween the two. You might want to check out Kenneth Cloke’s The Crossroads of Conflict, A Journey into the Heart of Dispute Resolution. You’re a writer, so I’m certain you’re also a reader. This book will, I promise, be an extraordinary resource for you. Best of luck to you and your family. Vickie Pynchon

Penelope,

I truly appreciate your post, and hope you and your husband reach a new level of personal and shared understanding through this experience. However, I am more intrigued with the reader reactions regarding your disclosure of such “private” information. Unless I misunderstood, most seem to be saying that making your “private” life public is in some way unfair or disrespectful to your husband, and therefore, you should stop. I think this illuminates a common misconception about how relationships should function, i.e. if something I do offends my significant other, I should stop doing it out of love and respect for the other person. I think this mindset is jaded.

I believe that we should stop compromising our own behavior in order to cause less suffering for our SO. If you stopped writing about your relationship now to make your husband feel more secure about his own behavior, this would stifle who you are and reinforce any insecurity he has about expressing himself to you. And the moment we have to stifle ourselves to make a relationship work, the moment our relationship starts to deteriorate. The only time I think I would consider compromising my own behavior for the sake of someone else is for my kids, but I don’t have kids, so I don’t have much to offer in this regard. (Note: I’m talking about not compromising on BIG issues that are truly acts of self-expression, not mundane issues such as who picks up the kids or whose family Christmas to attend this year).

Thanks again, Penelope, for your refreshing notions about privacy and publicity. I don’t think it is brave of you to write publicly about your marriage; I think it is brave of you to be yourself.

I think you’re wonderful for working at turning around your marriage in a society that often opts for the easy out, and you’re brave for sharing it with so many watching.

When I read things like this I always want to post the way everyone else is. But I can relate too well to this to type 20 words of obligatory encouragement. I am not qualified to give advice, but I’m going to give it anyway.

There are a lot of well-wishers, wishing vaguely for the best. I can tell you what “best” is. Stay together. It’s just like finance. Marriage is your bottom line, the minimum requirement. Stay married, period. As long as you don’t settle for that.

It doesn’t sound like you are, settling I mean, but you make it seem a little like you are abdicating a bit of responsibility - maybe due to frustration, maybe pride… maybe arrogance? You’re the only one who can know. I like your books and your articles. You’re successful. You probably deserve the success. But is it likely that some of the enormous energy that has gone into your career was fuel robbed from your marriage?

I know I’m kind of making myself a target. The most common response to comments like mine is anger, probably deserved and probably more than a little from fellow posters who respect you as much as I do. No, I don’t know the situation, and I probably don’t know what I’m talking about. I read a blog post and made some assumptions, and I apologize sincerely if they’re wrong.

But I do know that everyone has limits. If you have $10 to spend, you can’t buy lunch AND go to a movie, unless you give up all of one or a little of both.

Love really is the answer, but I think most people get it wrong. Love is a choice, not an emotion. There hasn’t been a single minute since we’ve been married that I haven’t loved my wife, but I don’t always *feel* like I love her.

That’s why marriage takes work. Sometimes you need to behave in a way that your emotions can’t support, because those feelings slip away too easilly. But there is no “trick” to it. As long as you don’t give up on the marriage, and as long as you allow those feelings to return (i.e. don’t block them by replacing them with negative ones), they will. They always do.

There’s one other thing I want to mention - communication. A lot of people say that’s the key, and in a way I think they’re right. But a big part of being married is also knowing when to shut up; you can never take back something you say in anger. My wife and I learned that the hard way.

Forgive my impertinence, and in any case, my prayers are with you.

Re: your husband’s comment: “A lot of people I talk with say that I am being abused by you.”

Did your husband give any permission to air the happengins between you two in the mediaiton session? One of the tenets of mediation is the confidentiality of the session.

If you have an inkling that you’d like to work on the marriage, please be careful that you aren’t using your blog (and the audience that comes with it) to air your perspective about the private aspects of the relationship with your husband in a manner he can’t even hope to respond to.

From his perspective, airing this out in the public manner you are can be construed as further emotional abuse, as this puts him in a powerless position. If he feels this way, then attempting to work on the marriage while the play-by-ply is being posted is counterproductive.

What a gift with words you have indeed. It’s very open of you to share all of this publicly. Have you considered the spiritual side to all of this? I haven’t seen any mention of the spiritual part of your being. Most people agree there is a spiritual part in everyone.

Hope things get better for you.

Penelope, I hope things turn out positively for you, whatever direction they take. I really appreciate your blog and your candor.

“because he never changes”

I didn’t need to read any further. You have a big problem right there. He may have problems too, but you have too big a problem. Where’s your open mind?

I’ve been divorced for seven years, and your post reminded me of how I felt during our marriage counseling sessions. I remember being overwhelmed by the problems we were having and feeling unable to get a clearer and broader perspective on our relationship. I’m not sure whether it would have made a difference for me or not, but here are the things I wish I could have known back then.

1. You have perhaps heard the saying, “Wherever you go, there you are.” While some of the problems in your marriage likely stem from your husband, there are just as likely things that you are causing. If you divorce and move on, those issues you have will go with you and will come up again in a future relationship. It’s important for all of us to find out what we ourselves are doing that are detrimental to relationships and to work on improving in those areas. It can be a humbling experience to discover that problems one attributes to another person actually come from oneself. I know this from personal experience.

2. Divorce does solve some problems in the sense that you won’t have to maintain a marital relationship with your husband and will be free to start a new life. However, while some of your old problems will be solved, there will also be many new problems, including arrangements for childcare, shared custody of children, establishing a blended family that might some day include new spouses for you and your ex and new siblings for your children, new holiday and vacation traditions, etc. It’s good to remember that the end of a marriage doesn’t mean the end of all problems.

3. Both my ex and I have found new partners. While we are both happier in our new relationships, it has been difficult for the kids even though we had a relatively amicable divorce and get along quite well now.

This isn’t meant as advice in any way. I don’t think that all marraiges can be saved, but there are some that can. Perhaps yours is one of those. I wish you and your family the best.

I have a 14 year-old autistic nephew, Marcus. It is my hope your marriage works out. Having a child with special needs isn’t easy. My sister Karon, her twin Sharon and I are it when it comes to raising/assisting with Marcus. Are parents aren/t physically able to assist with him at this age. I wish that the resources for every autistic child aged with the child. The world is so behind. I’m glad you have a great career. I know one day, resources/curriculum for your five year-old will be great/better than what my nephew didn’t receive. Several special schools in our area were established years after Marcus was already in the school system under the special ed division (which wasn’t called an autism division, like now). Take care of yourselves. Life will get better, for you and your husband.

I have to agree with Greg L. It’s wonderful that you want to share and be real and wear your heart on your blogging sleeve, and if you are sharing YOUR thoughts and feelings, this is fine. But you are dragging your husband’s thoughts and feelings out here too. Did he say that was OK? Did you even ask him?

Have you read “Born on a Blue Day” by Daniel Tammet? He is an autistic savant (mathematically speaking; he also learned to speak Icelandic in 7 days). He is intelligent and articulate and has written a book describing his childhood (in pretty good detail) as an autistic kid. It might help you understand what your son is experiencing. You can get it at Amazon. His URL: http://www.optimnem.co.uk/

Hope all works out well for you.

Hi Penelope.
I love your column, you’ve become a bit of a hero of mine.

The question only you can answer is:

If you were the Brazen Wifeist, if being married was like having a career, what would you do?

Is there hope this will improve? How are you going to make it better? If he can’t change, can you change to accept him the way he is? How many times are you going to try?

If you were going to give him a performance review what would it look like? What would yours look like from him?

Is it time to look for a better situation, even if it means being unemployed, er… I mean single for a while?

You know, a couple things really jumped out at me. First and foremost, allow me to applaud the candor with which you are sharing the dissolution of your marriage.

And now, onto my thoughts:

“We have been in couples therapy enough different times for me to know that I hate being in couples therapy with him because he never changes.”

Did you marry him for who he was? Why should anyone have to change for someone else? Why can’t he be himself? Maybe he’s not the one that needs to change.

“I delegated finding a therapist to my husband. After all, my first book just came out and I blog almost every day. I am busy. I know my penchant for delegating is part of the problem, but I thought this would be one last hurrah.”

I. Me. I am busy. I am important. I am pursuing my career. I am following my dream. I thought it didn’t matter if he identified this as a problem in our relationship, its what I want to do, and I’m going to do it. We can see how that’s working out for you.

“It’s easy for me to remember that every time I look-but-don’t-really-look for men to have an affair with, I find myself looking at someone who is like my husband: I still love him.”

No. You care deeply about him. But you don’t love him. You love some concept of what you NEED him to be. There is nothing worse in the world than being needed by someone. Far better to be wanted than required. Seeking an affair should have been a telltale for you. Instead you criticize him because he doesn’t change after couple’s therapy.

“So all I can do is think while he thinks. I think about the research about how a career does not make people happy.”

And the end of your marriage proves it.

Adrian L. Thank you. That needed to be said.

Wow. I think it is interesting so many people are quick to jump to the defense of Mr. Penelope Trunk without really knowing anything about the situation. Lots of concern for his privacy, and his honor, and so on. But, I’d bet the two best people to know that are in counseling. Adrian, didn’t you see any tongue-in-cheek humor in Penelope’s I’ll have one last hurrah comment? Nancy, those observations re: divorce are exactly what keep me trying. Very cool to see….

Meaghan - Great comment. I was just about to address the tongue-in-cheek humor. What is so refreshing about Penelope Trunk’s blog is that she puts her faults right out there for our review and discussion - she does not write as if she is above her own advice. Her blunt writing style makes it obvious that she is AWARE of what she is doing and thinking, which is so important. I don’t think she needs anyone to tell her that trying to change another person into what you want is a futile and unrewarding pursuit. But she is acknowledging, perhaps, that she still tries sometimes and/or she is also the one unable or unwilling to change. It’s brilliant.

Lastly, why should she have to ask her husband’s permission to write about her experience? This is her story, her perspective. If her husband doesn’t like it, or suffers because of it, that is not something she can control. Actually, that’s the most important thing I learned in high school: You can only take responsibility for your own experience. I’m certainly not encouraging NOT telling her husband (any communication is good communication at this point, I think), but I wholeheartedly disagree that she needs to check with her husband first when she writes.

Love the discourse everyone! Keep it up!

I hope you make it this far down in the comments (40 and counting…) to read what I have to say. First, your candor is wonderful - you will help thousands if not millions with what you do through this and all your other writing. Second, my wife and I nearly split 12, 13 years ago - one career exploding and two dying parents and an affair will do that. We fought back and won. How? We learned how to do everything all over again with a single minded faith in getting back to the love we had when we started. We constantly said “we were in love once” so we can be again.

We won, and that is exactly the word for it. Victory. Hard fought, gut wrenching, but oh so worth it victory. There is no more important battle than the one you are in. God Bless, Steve

* * * * * *

Hi, Steve. I got here. I read all the comments. I read all the comments every day, but today especially. I am touched by all the caring and kindness.

-Penelope

Commitment is they key to success. A marriage can work in the absence of love (although I wouldn’t recomend it). Love is a choice, not an emotion. The ‘in love’ feeling is the emotionally warm fuzzy most people think about, but it is not love. I was a stay at home dad with our first child, and I loved it. I was great at it. I would never do it again. On a subconcious level my wife resented me for it, even though it was discussed in depth before I actually quit my job. She stopped respecting me. Men need respect more than love. She would berate me and speak to me like I were her inferior, like I was a child. She would do this in public as well as private. It took almost 7 years for her to finally admit that she did resent me for it. We did survive. Now she’s the stay at home mom and we live on what I make, which is far less than what her earning potential is (she was in sales, I’m in accounting - not a CPA). Do not get a divorce. You can make this work out, and when it does, you’ll love each other more than you did before the trial by fire. Try this: apologize when you KNOW beyond question that he’s in the wrong. What’s it going to cost you? Your pride? Pride comes before a fall. So what if he thinks he won. In a year will either of you even remember that particular fight? But what if apologizing ends the fight? Will your son be better off if you do this or if you keep fighting?
If a man offers you a gift, but you refuse it, whos gift is it then? So too can it be with insult or offense.

Peace be with you.

First off, best wishes for a good solution to your current problem, for what ever value of “good” works for all of you - you, your husband, and your child. From the number of comments, it is obvious you’ve struck a chord with your audience. My initial thought after reading your post was the same as a number of posters - perhaps this shouldn’t be aired quite so publicly. However, as I read further comments, and your replies, I’ve modified my stance. As long as your husband is aware that you are posting about this and gets a chance for rebuttal if he feels the need, then I think you are doing us all a service. It is shocking and somewhat refreshing to see this all under bright lights, rather than whispered about in the shadows.

We just celebrated our 29th anniversary 2 weeks ago - with a trip to the ER, because she sliped and broke her fibula - how do we top that next year? ;) We often look around and ask ourselves, what are we doing right? We’ve never yet come up with the “right” answer. I don’t think there is a magic answer - do x, y, and z and all will be fine - all I can suggest is to be as honest and open with each other as you seem to be here.

Again, best wishes.

Dave

Wow.

and bless you.

Wendii

Echoing what so many have already said. Once again I am floored by your honesty and frankness. The only way to deal any issue is to strip off our mask which is something that very few are able to do. I admire your candor and your willingness to strip off your mask and let the world see the things that most of us want to hide. No real advice here, just my thoughts and prayers for you and your family. You are amazing. I cannot begin to tell you how often I am inspired by you. Again today, in spite of your difficulty, I am inspired by your spirit and your willingness to meet your problems head on.
I wish you the best Penelope.

Mitch

I really do not want to be reading about your personal life when I want to read about career advise. with the 200+ feeds that I read a day, I’ll drop your feed like a bad habit if this continues. Yes, I will admit that you touched a nerve in me, making my day really sour.

Give your relationship real respect, and keep it private, airing it out for your readers to see is an arrogant and a selfish move on your part. Deep and meaningful relationships need intimacy and security of their emotions (which he isn’t getting from you posting this). your counseling should be just you and him only, not you, him, and hundreds of onlookers… just you and him, and that’s all if you want this to succeed.

I have a hard time understanding why divorce is so hard on children under the age of 5. You can barely understand or even remember anything at that age - you haven’t been out of the uterus that long. I’d find easier to accept that older children, even teens, have a difficult time with divorce than people two feet tall.

I blog about whatever the heck I want. That’s the point. Anyway, I feel for you. I have a child who has struggled with the spectrum, and I know it is difficult. As a special education teacher, I see how hard it is for parents to deal with their child’s behaviors, school, etc. Personally, my marriage(s) went kaput. You are a far more patient woman than I am. I would have had a fit about the misunderstanding before we ever made it in the counselor’s door.

I read your blog regularly and this post stopped me in my tracks. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your husband and you try to work things out. It’s tricky territory posting about this sort of thing, but you’ve been even-handed about it.

My wife and I went through counseling, or rather counselors. While it was hard enough for me to air our grievances in front of a trained therapist, my wife’s circle of friends all knew every word in frightening detail. She also wrote about it in her blog, but seeing as how there are only seven people or so who read it, I was able to dismiss it as just venting.

If I found out that it was being read by thousands of people, I wouldn’t have been so quick to forgive her - in fact, I would have felt even more betrayed, shamed, and less likely to continue to work on the marriage.

I applaud your candor, but please keep in mind that we men are emotionally closed books, with the assumption that what is said behind closed doors will stay there. Regardless of what we say bothers us or not.

Guess I’ll add my 2 cents to the mix. Having been through counseling as pre-divorce discussion, I know how it feels. But I’ve also been through counseling as effort to save a marriage we both want to save. I agree you have to decide whether you want to be right or get what you want and need (to quote that great philosopher Dr. Phil). It’s up to you to decide what you are willing to look at in yourself. And let the mediator talk to your partner while you’re in the early stages. Because what you are saying to him and vice versa isn’t working or you wouldn’t be there. Work on yourself; look inside. Also heed those who say divorce will create a whole new set of problems as single parents…lots of them worse that what you’re dealing with now. Finally, I agree that men need respect more than anything…maybe your husband needs to work again?

I seriously considered calling off my wedding, and when I talked with my matron of honor about this, she revealed that she and her husband have an agreement to never discuss their marriage with other people and to never say anything negative about the other person.

At the time, I was too caught up in my own drama (which continues three years later) to really hear this, but later, I realized that part of the reason I felt so crappy about my own relationship is that I was struggling in a vacuum – especially because one of my best friends had created an illusion of a perfect marriage. And created a perfectly lopsided friendship.

Recently I told this friend that it’s her prerogative to live this way but that as a result I have greatly curtailed what I would offer of myself going forward. She seemed shocked and surprised.

I agree completely with Penelope: The perspective we gain from the experiences of others is essential to figuring out our own lives.

Moreover, it’s part of the implicit compact we make with each other. These compacts at times need to evolve into explicit ground rules – when the stakes are high, when the implicit isn’t working. For example, I have told my husband that I do confide in a few close friends about the details of our marriage, and I consider that essential. I’ve also told him that has earned me their stories in return which have offered me perspective that has almost uniformly helped me keep my head on straight and helped our marriage.

Rather than suggesting blogging about these things (or commenting on blogs) is right or wrong, I suggest a check in with oneself and one’s subjects about the implicit and explicit understandings that govern this sort of disclosure.

As for the specifics of PT’s post, I could have written it myself (except for the part about the kids, the husband not working and the six-figure book deal – more perspective for me). Maybe if everyone posted 100 words of very specific information about why their relationship is going to hell in a hand basket we’d all feel better.

Good Luck to you and your family - this will not be easy, no matter what happens.

Here’s one thing I know:

At the end of our lives what’s going to matter the most is how much we loved others and how much they loved us.

Careers won’t matter. Money won’t matter. Success won’t matter.

Only love.

Penelope,

I am sorry things are going so hard for you in your marriage. I know you didn’t ask for advice, but when I read your write up, it seems to scream out that you and your husband desparately need time alone together.

I have no idea if you are getting enough, but maybe a weekend getaway, just the two of you. At least 1x per month have a date night. Delegate him to making some weekend plans someplace - even if it’s just a hotel with swimming pool and cable - no fair blogging or calling the office.

Getting together alone for an extended period will let the real feelings come out. Have some fun again together. You deserve it.

Yes things ARE going well for you career wise - it’s only natural for the family life to strain right at some of the peaks. I don’t know why life works that way, it just does.

Anyway, I’ve sort of rambled. Get some dates in where you can rekindle old feelings. :)

P.S. some guys don’t say “I love you” when they are pissed. So - don’t read too much into that. He wouldn’t bother going to counseling if he had given up.

This is the reason I read your blog - you’re honest about your career and your life and how they intersect. As long as you and your husband are OK with the things you post, I’ll be here to listen and wish you all the best.

Hi Penelope,

For the last few months of my own career indecision, I have religiously consulted your blog on tips for my own career. I have been a writer/journalist for the last 3 years, and was thinking of a career switch. I am a deep advocate of passion before pay, and thanks to lots of tiny words of wisdom from you about this topic, I have taken it on and run with it. And it has been liberating, especially in an Asian working world that prides success as the big Beamer and mansion house instead of finding my personal calling.

So it breaks my heart when I hear about your struggling marriage. It is such a stark reminder of life, that success often is a double edged sword. I am holding hope for brighter days for you, and that both you and your husband will find the courage necessary for the future. Thanks for your honesty. It has always been your most welcome trademark.

Thoughts with you,

Jon

I’m so sorry you’re going through this and I wish you the best in working in out. Whether you stay together or not, I hope you and your husband make whatever choice is the best for both of you.

As a child who grew up with bickering parents who almost got divorced many times but ended up staying together, I can tell you that there are times when it is better for children for the parents to get divorced. My parents fought constantly and it was really difficult for me and my brother to be around the screaming all the time. It gave us a really screwed up view of relationships and I sometimes find myself exhibiting similar behaviors with my husband, who is sweet, absolutely hates yelling and never deserves to be yelled at. It’s hard to unlearn behaviors when it was all you knew growing up.

I think every family is different and relationship rules like “it’s better to stay together for the children” are not always right in every situation. We can learn a lot from other people’s experiences and from research, but in the end, every marriage and every family is unique. Good luck to you and your husband on finding the right path for your family.

I confess that I haven’t read any of the previous comments, but I’m sure that this has already gone up at least once:

At least one of you knows that they want the marriage to work.

That will make things harder on you emotionally, but that also means there is more hope. I don’t know you well enough to give you advice on how to make things work. But where there is hope… Best wishes to you Penelope.

Wow, did this post strike a chord today.

I envision you tonight, Penelope, reading and re-reading these comments. That would be tough in ways.

My ex had a long affair that I finally discovered. 12 years of marriage - three kids, ages 5, 8 and 10 at the time. Four years later, he’s married for the third time and is still miserable. I can totally understand his having been unhappy - I was not happy. It’s how he handled that unhappiness. I didn’t look back in leaving him.

The good part is that it sounds like you two are “just” plain old really mad at one another. You haven’t reached points of stumbling blocks like affairs that you may not recover from.

I’m ten times happier today than I was four years ago. But, I will say — I know from reading your posts that you feel guilt when your career messes with your 1-8pm window with the kids. If that causes guilt, wait until you hear your kids ask like mine did tonight “why didn’t we see dad this week?” (dad didn’t reschedule his night - - NOT intimating anything negative about your husband)… or when the dad weekend hits a “why do I have to go?” from a 14 year old that now wants to stay at “home” and be with his friends vs. going to dad’s 2 bedroom condo where there is no room for his friends… But, they “have” to go…

The kids have done very well - they all have some divorce issues that I pick up on but in general they’ve done great. I do worry about them all long term re: relationships… I came from a non-divorcing family. Will see.

It’s very difficult. I can count the times I’ve doubted my decision on a single hand. But, again, I felt like I had no choice. We hit the point of no return (I know myself and would never, never get over the lies and deception he pulled off).

Doesn’t seem to me that you guys have hit that point which is wonderful - if you BOTH want it to be :) And I so stress BOTH. All the best!!

When I saw this post I thought, “This is inappropriate content;” however, after considering a bit more I thought, “This is really inappropriate content!”

This blog’s periodic delving into personal matters looks like a thinly veiled attempt to goose traffic—an attempt, judging from the number of comments (mine included), which works. I suppose daily talk of careers can be dry, although I think that Penelope’s commentary in this area is quite interesting.

Most people with marital issues tend to keep them private—with good reason. Once you breach the confidentiality of a counseling session, as Penelope has done so dramatically here, you basically punt on the marriage. What’s next? A live webcast with the three of them?

I can’t say I’ve ever met a male who would be OK with these sorts of public relevations about his personal relationship. Penelope is selfish for divulging these details. “Abusive” really is apt description. Unfortunately, this post may do more than just abuse her husband. How will Penelope’s son feel ten years from now when he stumbles across posts like this in a web archive?

This post and the comments it spawned made me think about this: sometimes, the right thing to do is protect your own interests. Sometimes, you have to protect the interests of the people you love. What on earth are you supposed to do, however, when those things conflict?

A woman I work with has stalled her life for her children. American culture celebrates this. But when she and I talk, I am drawn toward the longing in her voice. My coworker rarely does things in her personal life that are not of immediate benefit to someone else, and certainly does not do things that would appear “selfish” or self-improving. And it always makes me wonder: what happens to her when the kids are grown? When you define yourself solely by the role of “mother,” who do you become when your kids are no longer the force behind your daily choices?

I was lucky to have a mother who was able to balance a successful career, a busy child (albeit only one!) and an active personal life. My mom made serious sacrifices on my behalf when my parents were first divorced, but she never sacrificed her own future for my happiness. If anything, building a better future for the two of us drove her to improve herself. I aspire to be the same kind of mom.

My mom applied this same philosophy to her current marriage, which is to a man I am lucky to call my second father (my birth dad is also active in my life). My stepdad is 12 years older than my mom and was a heavy smoker for many years. My mom has told me that she knew when she married him that it is highly probable that he will pass away before she does. She planned - planned! - to make sure that her life would be rich with him and without him. While he’s sure to be around for many more years (decades!), my mom’s candor about this healthy kind of self-importance has really helped me when I consider my own relationships: Is this someone who will define me, or someone who will help me define myself?

Best wishes for you and your family.

What I appreciate most about Penelope’s honesty is that she warns me about some pitfalls that could be ahead if my husband and I don’t “watch where we’re going.” Not just this post, but many posts that (rightly and uniquely) connect life and career decisions.

Whether its right for her to share family issues on her blog is something between her and her family.

She/they made the choice to share it.

I intend to learn from their generosity — and not judge it.

One other quick comment: I have to say I’m with Penelope on the issue of public vs. private. Several years ago, a close friend and I were both in negative relationships. We never discussed our problems. We each suffered alone, thinking that everyone around us was sickeningly happy and that we were screwed up for being miserable. I thought she was happy in her relationship. She thought I was happy in mine. When her relationship finally ended, I was shocked. I had no idea how bad it was, because she had kept things private to protect him. And how much I wish, in hindsight, that I had had the courage to admit, publicly, how poorly my own relationship was faring. Perhaps I would have gotten myself out a few years earlier.

I’d agree with Wendy if “she/they” made the choice, but it appears that “she” made it.

On Lauren’s quick comment:
That’s a good point, except that this blog isn’t limited to “close friends.”

To sacrifice yourself on the altar of artistic honesty is admirable, but in this instance I truly fear for you

I think it’s tough for any of us to say what our relationships are with bloggers. Penelope answered an email I sent her - on a wing and a prayer - with the kind of care and attention that a close friend would give me. Does that mean she’s my friend? Not in the offline way. But there’s an interesting sort of community on blogs… after all, we’re all reading down to the 68th comment. The line between public and private is really, really indistinct… if not imaginary.

Good luck to you. If there’s hope for reconciliation, I would suggest taking a family trip…..without your laptop. Then see if you can rekindle what brought you too together.

Penelope,

You’re strong and clever.
You know what you wish and I hope will find how to achieve it.
If a couple desires something the same together, then, I think, there is no serious obstacle on their track.
And yet, I belive that a lot depends on woman in a marriage, so, be active while waiting for his decision about his love!

Good luck

So what does all this discourse boil down to? I believe the Beatles said it best:

And in the end
The love you take
Is equal to the love
You make

“I like how you say that you won. This is how I know I will feel when I come out of this with my marriage in one piece. I will feel like it’s a huge victory. I will jump up and down and tell people how hard I worked at this. I like that you are cheering for your own victory here. You are a good role modle for where I want to be.”

Maybe, just maybe, it isn’t the best thing for everyone. Maybe, just maybe, it isn’t the best thing for Mr. P. Are you going to force him? Because I know that women are emotionally abusive in a marriage, I’ve seen it. And your determination could so easily spawn that…

Parenting is probably harder to work than marriage. You have counseling on how to bring up a autistic child and help him lead a normal life?

Does your kid have any say in this matter? I’m sure, he’d like his parents to stay together.

I am dyslexic and ADD, was very tough to “bring up” and back then, there were no medication. Parental love and Care worked mostly for me, though thats not always enough. Good luck and thank you for blogging about it.

Good Luck Penelope. I really do commend you for taking the initiative to see someone before giving up on Marriage. It just seems that people give up way to easily these days. I’ve been married five years (I’m 28) and in that five years we have seen many of our friends marry and divorce. When (not if) you and your husband make it through this your bond will be like steel, because if you can overcome this adversity in your marriage the two of you will be able to overcome any obstacle that life presents you.

Matt

Just seems like a façade to attack your husband from a medium he probably doesn’t check.

**At this point, I think my husband is going to tell the mediator about how he gave up his career for the kids and me and he is totally disappointed. But instead he says to me, “A lot of people I talk with say that I am being abused by you.”

I am shocked. It’s a big allegation. But I say, “A lot of people I talk with think I should get rid of you.”**

Sounds like a rather abusive remark to me.

Penelope, I feel for you. I have been where you are, and I just want to recommend John Gottman. I credit a Gottman weekend with transforming my marriage. His books and DVDs are also worth the money. What I know of you from reading this blog, I think you would like this approach.

Here is a link to upcoming workshops: http://www.gottman.com/marriage/weekend_workshop/