To me, these comments reflect the degree to which people have [not] identified with the writer as yet. Maybe it’s a positioning issue (content doesn’t match audience expectations). Penelope, I don’t think you see that as frequently with your posts, because you’ve built a community over time…you’ve found your audience, and it’s even self-policing to some degree.

That part of the community already has its critical mass.

In the absence of community, reaction is generally going to be negative: It’s always easier to destroy than to build. Read “Blink” where he’s describing the initial reaction to the Aeron chair. Where people don’t know how to classify their reaction, they automatically tend to associate it with the negative until they acquire the frame of reference to reclassify it.

Ryan, I’m thinking, hasn’t got enough overlap between his personal and his professional audience as yet, so the sense of community isn’t there. But, it will be, assuming the nucleus of the community (i.e., Ryan) can put up with the birth pangs.

Sorry…I’m a mom…everything’s about parenting for me in some way. That’s just my metaphor.

* * * * * 

Jen,
Thanks for the explanation. This actually sheds a lot of light on both the situation here and at Yahoo. And I’m encouraged by how well Aeron chairs sell today.
I learn so much from Ryan’s ideas. He isn’t burdened by what’s happened earlier in his career because he didn’t have one.
Almost every week, my first instinct is to argue with him. The times I don’t argue with him are the times I learn the most.
When I was a freshman in college, we read St. Augustine, and I wrote a paper arguing against him. My professor gave me a D, and he told me that you learn the most about something by figuring out the strong points they make instead of arguing against the weak points. I spent the rest of the semester writing a paper about St. Augustine every two weeks. By the end of the semester I understood why he was a great thinker, and even though I didn’t agree with everything, his ideas changed my life. I wouldn’t have gotten that if all I had done was argue against him.

Penelope

My online experience has been that, the bigger the public forum, the more numerous the abrasive comments. I think people view personal blogs as “private homes,” so they’re less likely to insult the person who has offered them hospitality. But out in the public space, they figure anything goes and forget that there are real people with real feelings reading their comments.

As a crotchety member of Generation Jones (thanks for bringing that crazy neologism to my attention. All I can now think of is geriatric Buddy Ebsen as BARNABY JONES), I often find myself rolling my eyes at Ryan’s musings and muttering under my breath, “Just you wait a few years, boyo.” But I would never presume to insult him in the comments here and wonder whether he’s treated more fairly on his own site, among his own peers.

I think these negative comments that you and Ryan receive are related to the generational divides in thinking about jobs that are the essence of your blogs. These are exactly the attitudes of my older co-workers and family members. They reflect the reality of the modern workspace where the 20 somethings are derided by boomers for their lack of loyalty, work ethic, etc. They’ve spent years climbing their way to their position and they feel threatened by our contempt for that work model. In a way our attitudes towards work can seem to undermine all their years of hard work. It’s a little bit of jealousy that maybe we’ve figured out a way to circumvent some of the BS that makes Office Space such a funny movie.

I’m a thirty-something who’s recently found your blog. I’ve recommended the site to a number of people who have never understood my need to change jobs every 3 or so years. Everything I’ve read here has been well written and useful. I’ve found numerous links to other sites that I refer to frequently and enjoy.

I purchased your book last week and am looking forward to reading it (although I must admit it’s in line for consumption behind re-reads of the last two Harry Potter books and the newest one releasing next month).

The strongest thing I take away from your site is the notion that there ARE other people out there who, like me, keep their resumes up-to-date, use every tool at their disposal for networking and expanding their skill sets, and are always looking for their next job.

I don’t think you have to be ultra-ambitious to be a “Brazen Careerist” either. When I grow up, I want to be a Lotto Winner, but in the mean time I am going to get the most I can get for my efforts. I don’t live to work - I work to live… and The Brazen Careerist is inspiration for me - thanks, Penelope and friends!

The responses to Ryan seem horribly paternalistic. What seems interesting is that you have, in many ways, worked to create a community of people who are interested in changing the workplace, and that is well receieved. But when Ryan speaks for himself, it pulls out the “you don’t know what you’re talking about, whippersnapper,” comments. Thus, you have the authority to speak about what should be changed, but an invested party (Ryan) shouldn’t be too vocal/assured/demanding?

Ryan has never said anything I wanted to respond to - positively or negatively. And, what compels someone to write horrid, nasty things to other people on blogs is beyond me. it is studied, and commented on, and the Kathy Sierra issue even made it to CNN, but it just seems like the ugly underbelly of online. Why the need to tear someone down? (Who knows - Ask Ann Coulter)

Penelope,

I think you get it right about the half the time.
Which isn’t bad.

And when you do get it right it’s with a fresh insight. But when you’re off, you’re pretty far off. The workplace is getting tougher. It’s global and ultra-competitive. A “braided” lifestyle won’t cut it for the majority of the workforce.

Encouraging gaps in employment history is not useful. I’ve hired people. Gaps are a huge red flag. Can they be overcome? Yes.
But…If I’m investing in a person, I want to be as sure I can be that they’ll hang around. I want winners who can committ. Training new employees, having them get involved in the culture of the company, working with other departments on short and long term projects is expensive. Hiring new talent is expensive.

I need to know they’re in this. So, you worked for a year and then went to Spain to paint and now you’re back. Good for you, but job hopping, to me, looks like our investment in you won’t pay off. In fact, it will be a losing proposition.

Well, then, maybe you don’t want to work for us Fine. There are others just as good, with a better attitude that I can hire. Good luck to you. Seriously, if you can pull it off, great.
Not many can. And that’s the thing. Only pointing out the exceptions to the rule isn’t helpful.

Ryan, on the other hand, is a bright guy. I like him, but he is so young, so inexperienced, so lacking in wisdom–which he will aquire down the road–that I can’t take his writings seriously.

Why do I read your blog? You seem likable. You’re positive, engaging, and a good writer. Yes, at times you’re way off base, but when you get it right, you nail it.

Tim

Yikes, didn’t mean to imply Penelope isn’t bright–she is. What I meant to say here is:

Ryan, on the other hand, WHILE he is a bright guy and I like him, is so young, so inexperienced, so lacking in wisdom–which he will aquire down the road–that I can’t take his writings seriously.

I read your blog regularly and recommend it to all my friends in our 20’s and early 30’s.

The fact that the entire 40-something, work is my life crowd thinks you are a pariah only confirms what I already know: I don’t want to be like them!

Most times I read one of your articles, I’m just nodding my head the whole time. It’s like you’re writing exactly about me, except that there are millions of people who share the same values.

I am especially amused at all the “Senior Recruiter” types who take the time to write nasty stuff. They should be thanking you for opening their eyes to the what the new generation of workers want. Instead, they can’t let go of their own tightly-held values about the workplace.

I just discovered your column about a month ago and have literally read through nearly every posting. I think you’re blunt, honest and realistic about today’s workforce and the new generation entering into it. Though I haven’t read Ryan’s blog in its entirety, his guest postings thus far have reflected a similar realistic worldview. While I can’t speak for those who take such an offense to your postings, nor do I even want to try; it has been my experience that both your’s and Ryan’s columns (the opinions, observations & suggestions) have been “spot-on.”

Keep up the good work!

I think it’s unfortunate you get so many negative responses. Granted, it’s common that web trolls to take the time to write negatively, while the ones who take something positive from your column simply absorb, implement and move on.

I assume a lot of the negative responses in your linked Yahoo! article originate out of fear and or inexperience of what you suggest.

Sure, you Penelope and your blog fans (of which I am one) are familiar with these forward thinking approaches in navigating career and family life, but many people are not.

So suggesting these types of empowering alternative approaches (eg; save money; don’t bury yourself in more grad degree school loans unless necessary, etc) makes many people cringe because they haven’t personally experienced your suggested approaches, nor know of someone who has.

In the negative responses, what I hear is a lot of people saying, “I’m not open to alternative approaches to life” .. or .. “I haven’t realized, or simply refuse to admit, that the world is a changed place from the perspective of what the baby boomers have instilled in us.” Good luck to them.

I’m 32. Work professionally in engineering researh and development. And I see many great things in the new approaches you write about.

Hey, Anthony: What do you think — is possible that both the “senior recruiters” and the young adults who aren’t burdened by experience (Penelope’s comment above) are both going to be subject to some moderating influences over time?

I mean, I’m a late-thirty-something, and yes, I agree with the posts saying (hopefully nicely!) that at some point we grow up to a degree that maybe Ryan hasn’t reached yet. Which is OK. I mean, I’m shocked at how hard it is for me to remember what I was like 18 years ago, when I’d have rather gone to a Grateful Dead concert and work nights at a catalog company and write poetry than have a “real” job. But I’m not there anymore. And I’m sure Ryan won’t be the same person in 10 years, either, whatever that means for him. That’s just life…Ryan doesn’t need anyone flaming him to get there.

But I also think that the future reality isn’t going to be the “I told you so!” dystopia that many of these “senior recruiter” types are trumpeting. We don’t completely lose who we were, either, and the business world is going to have to adapt to the desires of a different workforce.

Clients have asked me many times “How can I figure out my company’s weaknesses?” They were shocked when I told them, “Learn weaknesses from the slander your detractors spread about you.”

My reasoning was simple. People who like you will sugarcoat everything to the point where you can “miss the point.” But your detractors exaggerate your worst. More often than not, there’s some truth in what detractors say. It’s just exaggerated and ignores the good.

So if you really want to know where you’re falling short, put a detractor’s slander in perspective and learn.

BTW as a writer and keynote speaker it’s been tough for me to do this. Every negative comment cuts. But I need to practice what I preach.

* * * * *

Laurence,
This is great advice — I have found this to be true. Although I think it is an artform to know which detractors to listen to and which to ignore.

Penelope

“Be the change you wish to see in the world.”

Without that, we’d have nothing. Do what you do. It’s been my experience that those that ruffle the most feathers tend to have the most valuable points to make.

I agree that the ones who come on here to bash are probably the usual types who troll websites and bash. It’s so easy to hide behind a computer screen and lash out. Internet arguments can escalate way beyond what they would in real life, because in real life - there’s something called tact! and it’s a lot harder to say the meanest thing that comes into your head when you’re face to face with someone.

Didn’t you write an article about email arguments? Maybe it wasn’t you - but I thought I read something recently about not discussing things through email that may be misconstrued. I think the same thing goes for the majority of the “mean” comments.

but the negative comments - i agree with the above poster, if they’re not meant just to sting, it can be good to take them with a grain of salt and see what they are really saying. Because I think the people who take the time to thoughtfully write out why they disagree are not doing it to hurt feelings.

I also think it’s correct to assess that most of Ryan’s writings - or even some of your more “bold” and “controversial” articles (ha) - run the risk of people reacting negatively because it’s something NEW and it not “the way we’ve always done it.” Give those people a chance to come around. Either that or they’ll learn the hard way in 10 years when they realize you were onto something and they might have stayed ahead of the pack if they listened.

No one is going to give great advice 100% of the time. There have been times when I’ve strongly disagreed with both of you.

BUT - you’ve both also had more than your share of excellent advice and great points.

The difference is I (and most of the readers like me) can disagree vocally, yet respectfully. For whatever reason, these other readers feel so threatened by you or what you have to say that they feel the need to make personal attacks at you. I’ve never understood.

In several instances, it’s kept me from commenting on certain posts, because I didn’t feel any need to argue career advice with someone who lacks any sense of professionalism or respect for other people. If these readers can’t conduct themselves in an adult manner, I’m not too concerned with whether they’re telling me to grow up and look at the real world anyway.

Don’t let them shake you. You (both) do great work, and share unique points of view. If people want to disagree, let them learn to do so in an appropriate way before you give any thought to what they have to say.

As a side note, I think Ryan (and all of in his age group) will admit that we’re young and inexperienced. We don’t really claim to know it all or have it all figured out.

What we do know is what we would like to have and that what we want is pretty different than what others have wanted and what we’re currently getting for our 40 hrs a week.

Ryan is not writing a gospel. He’s expressing the opinions of a demographic that doesn’t currently have much of an outlet on these topics, and shouldn’t be berated for doing so. All of the non-millennial readers were once our age with (I hope) big dreams, too.

Penelope,

I generally like your posts while not liking Ryan’s. The main difference is that I’ll often learn something from a post or article that you write, while Ryan’s haven’t really taught me anything.

I find a lot of his posts read like ramblings against corporate america and his desires to start some kind of business at some point in the future. What am I supposed to learn about that, and other than being a “twentysomething,” what the heck does he know about young people that I or others don’t?

Ryan’s working hard, and I respect that, but in my opinion he’s never established any credibility, which makes me much more critical of his work.

Why do you care? (about the comments) For that matter, why do you care what we think of them? Some will like you, some won’t. Big deal.

Like handling a “tough question” in an interview, first ask yourself WHY the person said what they said (as far as you can tell).

If they’re a troll, they’re a troll. If they have a point, let it inform the conversation and keep moving it forward.

There’s value — and a lot of people “listening” — in your writing whether you are right or not. In fact, there can be tremendous value in being dead “wrong “about something, if it starts the conversation that gets you to the “right” answer.

I’d go with this: It’s easier to tear down that it is to use reason and logic in arguments. Many people have well-honed abilities to do the “cut downs” but little ability, in general, to apply critical rhetoric. It’s just easier to rip into arguments that it is to make a plausible alternative argument. Get personal, it’s easy.

Why you? I’d say it’s because you think. You prod. You provoke. Sure, it’d be easy to be plain vanilla. Then you wouldn’t get nastygrams, or at least they would be fewer. But you have a viewpoint. You speak clearly. You reveal yourself. And for some reason, that scares the people who hold on by their fingertips to their worldview. I mean, isn’t the man in the gray flannel suit still the way of the world?

I say keep on keepin’ on. You have a great thing going. And the trolls, and I especially mean those who don’t write an original word themselves, those who only criticize, will keep coming and making fools of themselves. It is entertaining reading. But as hard as it is, don’t take that junk seriously. Serious people deserve serious consideration. People who say “You should be fired” don’t know you…and they should be ignored.

Penelope,

I wouldn’t worry too much about these posts. People are bound to disagree with you, whatever you say - wouldn’t life be boring if we all had the same ideas and opinions. As for the tone of the message, I think it’s an Internet Phenomenon.

Or, as Penny Arcade put it, the Greater Internet F*ckwad Theory

(Apologies for the crude language. That’s what it’s called…)

Some people sooner or later realize that disagreement is usually a learning opportunity, some don’t. I wouldn’t worry too much about the latter ones - you don’t “want” them as readers.

I’ve typically found that when people are seeking advice, they are really seeking validation of what they have already decided for themselves. Thus those who come to your articles simply because they see them listed under “Advice” or “Experts” in Yahoo are bound to be disappointed when presented with something that is in line with their own thought process. Those of us who read this as a blog see it as more of a discussion of the shift in cultural phenomena related to the workplace.

But for those who think this blog is not relevant to large corporations, you’re wrong. I work in HR for one of the top five software companies in the world (30,000+ employees) and our strategy meetings have recently included topics including Facebook, creative benefit solutions, flex time-off arrangements, and more. The issue is that change in companies of that size is slow and methodical and requires persistence and vision. But most of all, it requires new blood and new ideas - some like Penelope’s.

This is not to say that I don’t often disagree with some points (I actually became a committed reader when Penelope thoughtfully responded to one of my rebuttal comments), but the devil is in the details and its the principles of the arguments that matter.

Depends. Does the difference between reactions on Yahoo and reactions here affect what and how you write?

Your stuff isn’t bad, although I don’t always agree with it. I saw some good points in the comments: if you’re going to make potentially controversial statements, sourcing your blog is not a credible way to go. It might have been a good idea to account for the fact that your comments don’t apply to every job or situation, and that your recommendations should not be followed in certain industries.

I usually skip over Ryan’s stuff because he seems to be trying to hard to be THE VOICE OF THE YOUNGER GENERATION and comes across too often as clueless, arrogant, and naive. Which, surprisingly, are traits you tend to have when you’re young. Also, the post you linked starts with silliness and gets worse from there (the statement about cell phones, internet, etc. affecting patience is oversimplified, and his gainsaying “I don’t buy that” comment reminds me of one of McLuhan’s favorite aphorisms: “I don’t know who discovered water, but it wasn’t a fish”–but going into the invisibility of the climate and attitudes created by technology would be beside the point). The post boils down to “I’m rushing through my career because I want a family,” which is not exactly valuable, insightful, or interesting. But I’ve subscribed to this blog for quite some time, and I haven’t run into a post by Ryan that WAS valuable, insightful, or interesting. Maybe eventually he’ll have something worth talking about, but I haven’t seen it yet.

So there are my thoughts, since you’re asking for feedback. I wouldn’t typically post comments on posts like either of the ones you linked, though–it’s a lot easier to mark it as read and move on, or to unsubscribe if I keep seeing the same problems.

I think people, when faced with an idea that doesn’t jive with what they think (and they feel righteous about it), they want to blame & lash out at someone. Makes them feel better to tell someone else (in this case you or other bloggers) that they are wrong! dead wrong! what do you know?! Sort of like the bully on the block when you’re a kid.

To the degree comments spark a further conversation of differing opinions, I think that is great. Healthy discussion and exploring new ways of thinking, other people’s experiences and perspectives are great. Isn’t that what the web is supposed to be about anyway?

If they are just malicious and short, un-elaborated upon bursts of ego (”I’m right, what does this chick think she knows it all?”) type rants, they generally just take up space. For those, I’d wish you ease in letting them just vanish into the ethers…

Keep up the great work & opinions/advice. I don’t always agree 100% but that’s what helps me grow and re-look at what I do believe, right?

I get really irritated by the patronizing, condescending tone people take when responding to Ryan sometimes. Why not just pat him on the head? Really, though, they are just validating some of the things he says. I read their snotty comments and think no WONDER he dislikes certain things about corporate America.

That said, I do envy him. Penelope and I are about the same age, and I think she admitted to feeling the same way about the 20-somethings. When I went to college, I did the “responsible” thing and majored in a field (accounting) that, while boring, was supposed to have a strong job market. I graduated in 1992 and my first job only paid $7.00 an hour. And it wasn’t just me. Penelope is right about Gen X coining the term “McJob.” My department was full of college grads with 4-year accounting degrees, making the same crappy wages.

Living with my parents, a trend among today’s 20-somethings I can’t even begin to grasp, was not an option for me. I didn’t have the money to go back to school, and at any rate it didn’t seem like the degree I ALREADY had was doing me much good. So I got a second job - working at Target for minimum wage. Even between those two jobs, working 60-70 hours a week, I didn’t even make $20,000 a year. It SUCKED! There was no such thing as companies “competing for” or “trying to lure” people like me. We got treated like dirt!

When I hear about companies trying hard to kiss 20-something azz these days, a part of me feels angry and let down by … maybe the times I grew up in, or the companies I worked for. Why did I have to go through such a miserable time? It was four years before I could quit that second job. Backpacking across Europe? Going to Spain? Don’t any of today’s 20-somethings know what it’s like to be freekin’ BROKE? Or do all of their parents throw money at them?

Yet I take all that and shove it back down inside, where it belongs. The fact that today’s 20-somethings have all these options and don’t have to waste their youth on multiple, crappy jobs is a GOOD thing. I’d never want to stick them in the same situation I was in. In fact, I’m thankful for them. They’re saying the same things Gen X has been saying for ten years, but none of those damn old-school bureaucrats would listen to us because there were too few of us to matter. Now that Gen Y is joining our ranks, it’s going to make things better for ALL of us.

Would it sound negative to say I didn’t find that particular set of comments negative?

‘Sides, “No one ever kicks a dead horse” - Dale Carnegie (who’s even older than I am!) If Ryan (or any of us) are bold enough to challenge the status quo (hurray!), and in the give-and-take world of blogland besides, it seems a teeny bit disingenuous not to expect we’ll be challenged right back.

Moreover: civil engagement of this sort is *good*, and we 1st worlders have no idea how fortunate we are to be able to have it! If Baby Boomers can learn from Milleniels, surely things can work the other way round as well. I paid a hell of a lot for these wrinkles!! ;)

Though finally, yes, all sides should endeavor to be civil about it, and all (ALL) should start by finding common ground.

“Almost every week, my first instinct is to argue with him.” Thank you for the candid comment.

I think there is a generational thing going on. I would like to see the comments on an identical post on Ryan’s site.

I have been considering a similar issue in one of my MBA classes. There are two of us in our mid-40s (married and kids). The rest of the class is the under 25 set. As a result of some pretty intense class discussions (and the gentle reminder of our Boomer professor, who reminds us generational differences DO exist), I have decided I need to pay particular attention to the avoidance of curmudgeony. It is not that I desire or want to become the Grouchy Old Man; it just seems to be creeping up with all the other baggage that comes with middle age.

Ryan: You are a cocky smart-aleck who thinks he has it all figured out. Your posts remind me of what I was like “back then” (except at 23 I was assistant manager of a burger place). I hope there are always a few of your kind around my work place.

I think you have to understand if a post is pretty decent the typical user won’t go out of their way to leave a comment.

But, if they REALLY like it or REALLY hate it then they’ll chime in.

You both write about controversial ideas. Things that question the status quo are bound to gather “you’re ignorant” comments, right?

I’d much rather the feedback and opposing points of view than have my comments field turn into an echo chamber.

Hey Penelope,

You definitely have a unique perspective on how people in their 20s and 30s should handle their careers. Thus, of course you are going to get some abrasive comments! In my opinion, the day you stop getting abrasive comments on Yahoo is the day you should resign as a Yahoo columnist! Your articles and opinions, whether people think they are right or wrong, make people think and present fresh perspectives…frankly, Yahoo needs several more columnists like you!

Take care,
Ryan

Godspeed John Glenn, godspeed

Penelope,

First off, I would take negative comments to mean that you are on the right track. I think people become so complacent and locked into running between the lines that they see anything outside that as being ridiculous. The knee-jerk reaction to dismantle an idea because maybe once upon a time the commenter agreed with it but has lost hope.

I absolutely love how Ryan’s ideas light people up here. I laugh at the “smart-aleck” kid reactions and the “wait until your my age” comments. I can only speak for myself, but as a Gen Y (Millennial, etc) I classify myself as optimistic to a fault. I actually have a hard time dooming and glooming.

Overall, I think it is the optimism, persistence, and “brazen” way the ideas here rub against the grain that drive the negativity - after all it is so much easier to be negative than positive (especially to the disgruntled, self-loathing, jealous types out there)

I say keep blazing the trail and use the negativity as inspiration!

I believe it is an issue of anonymity. People say things they never normally would in person. Which I think we are all guilty of time to time; we’ve all made statements about a celebrity or political figure that, if met in person, we wouldn’t repeat.

Those who choose to continually waste negative energy on such comments are draining themselves and that’s their problem.

That said, the way things are written in comment form or email can be interpreted differently than in real life. It is everyone’s responsibility to ensure that a respectful atmosphere is cultivated online.

Penelope, you’re not the only one getting the nasty responses. Almost all of the Yahoo! columnists get ugly responses. There are people out there who are just very negative and closed minded and are more likely to respond than those who agree (or almost) with the columnists. I think Yahoo should drop the comments section.

Keep writing! Ryan should keep writing, too. Many people won’t agree with you — sometimes I don’t, but I do try to stay away from being nasty — but IT DOESN’T MATTER.

The world needs fresh insights.

So many of the comments on Yahoo are terribly mean spirited. Have you ever checked out the comments Suze Orman receives? They’re pretty awful — lots of pot shots are her private life, much like the comments you receive.

If there’s anything insightful, try to get something from it. As for the haters, ignore them.

Keep writing.

Evidently you’ve struck a nerve. Perhaps the boomers doth protest too much…or perhaps they are projecting.

In my line of work, I’m continuously amazed at what people send in as feedback. Not only do we email things we’d never actually say, I think we elevate ourselves to a level of arrogance that we don’t (I hope) exhibit, or even actually believe when the conversation isn’t face to face.

It’s much easier to forget that we’re all connected, and much easier simply to write defensively.

If you ask me - the worst feedback you could get would be ZERO comments. The volume you’re getting tells you that you’re right on track…

Hi. Thank you, everyone, for the great comments. An unexpected result of this post is that I got a sort of focus group about what this blog is and where it should go. Very helpful.

–Penelope

I don’t get why people are so rude and condescending. I try never to do that — though I imagine I have on occasion and maybe some of my blog posts come across that way.

I think it represents some old-style think about the web too, like you will never meet this person as a real person (not nec. in the flesh, but by email or on Facebook or whatever). The people I “know” online would never be so rude to me. And the people who really get that the social web is more about connection than about being right or superior would never do it either.

* * * * *

Anne,
Thanks for making the point that “old-style” commenting is not okay now. I think you’re right that the free-for-all attitude about web anonymity is outdated.

-Penelope

Yes I agree that the comments are more abrasive. Yahoo Finance has a more diverse audience than your blog. On your site you swim with the dolphins at Yahoo you swim with the sharks. I don’t think Ryan has his base established yet.

I think the comments are abrasive because you position yourself as a Career Expert and some might think your breezy platitudes could be HARMFUL.

Impressionable 20 something’s could use your advice as justification to make costly decisions without considering where they will be in 10-15 years. Time speeds up as you get older. A decade could go by in the blink of an eye.

I know because I’m 32 and had a “brazen” attitude in my 20’s. I’ve spent the past several years trying to correct my mistakes. Do I like the corporate world not for a minute, but I have responsibilities and need to keep my options open. I’m often reminded that there are over a billion people overseas studying for my job right now.

You and Ryan are writing to a niche market and giving the market what it wants to hear. I think the comments can go over the top, some are unjustified and downright mean.

However I think the dissenting comments are necessary for balance.

I celebrate variety in blog comments, provided we remain respectful. A range of reactions to Ryan and Penelope’s posts isn’t something I’d like to see squashed.

The material found in the Brazen Careerist is deeply personal. When Ryan or Penelope take a stand on a personal issue, feathers are bound to get ruffled.

I don’t perceive a blogger’s choices and priorities as judgment of those making other calls. When readers take offense, I suspect they react out of insecurity vs. a legitimate complaint about content.

Ultimately, I feel sorry for harsh commenters and move on. Hopefully Ryan will take appropriate lessons from the feedback, but not let it impede his path.

Penelope,
I guess my irritatation at you and Ryan’s posts stems from the question “what credibility does this person have for saying what they are saying?”. I look at your career and do not see anything terribly successful (or unsuccessful) about it - I look at Ryan’s career (what little there is) and see nothing of substance to base many of his hypotheses on. Both of you often reference sources that are questionable or downright wrong. Yet both of you profess to be “career experts”. And the blog medium actually lends credibility to this claim due to the allure of this being “new media”.

What I am afraid of is that many Gen Yers will take this advice as gospel and make choices they will regret in the future.

And no, I am not a boomer - I am in my late 30s. I do feel that I have accummulated at least a little wisdom to make my opinion valid.

When a higher primate such as a baboon is attacked by a stronger peer, the baboon deals with its anger by attacking a weaker baboon (or one that is unable to fight back). No joke. Read “Why Zebras Don’t get Ulcers” by Robert Sapolsky– a fabulous book written by a scientist about stress response in primates and how this applies to humans as well.

The anonymous nature of blog postings emboldens people who have problems to lash out against others without consequences. In other words, we people have a bad day, many choose to “take it out” on a blogger anonymously.

I’m an attending physician in mainland of China. I read your blog everyday. So do a lot of my fellows. Your insight into the world is positive. I really enjoy reading it. Everyone has his/her terrible moment, while denial him/herself and, in the same time, happy others. Anyway, they’re looking for help from your blogs. Thank you for sharing your life opinions.

I think it’s interesting the you have invoked the term ‘authenticity’ to describe what Generation Y values, while the opponents and critics have claimed that you lack ‘credibility’.

I’ve been doing some research into new media, rhetoric and power - and it seems as though Generation Y’s lack of concrete power, career exerience and so on will always be invoked by the entrenched Baby Boomers as evidence of this lack, and a means of marginalising the youth voice.

However, Generation Y (and I count myself amongst its number) places a high value on authenticity. This means that, providing they have a point or message behind them, we’ll be listening to your personal comments, experiences, and ancedotes with interest. If it’s already something we know is credible - that we or our friends have experienced ourselves - then they don’t have to be backed up by scientific proof or numerical evidence; something that the Baby Boomers seem to demand in the name of ‘credibility’.

Some of the comments that you’ve highlighted make me dispair as to the sheer size and depth of the generation gap. I mean, sure, Generation Y hasn’t had a chance to get all that much credibility or experience under its belt as of yet, but many of your respondents seem to be tearing our hopes and aspirations to shreds - in my mind, without due cause.

So, yes, don’t get disheartened. Keep it up!

* * * * *

Justin,
This is such an interesting comment. Thank you.

The issue of authenticity vs. credibility is very real. You describe this so well. I have to think about this. I’m fascinated with the idea that all the things older people did to get credibility count for little in a world where authenticity rules. So interesting. And now totally makes sense why people attack me on the grounds of credibility.

Penelope

Ryan’s comments may come off as naive to some of your readers, but the reality is, he’s a young, career-minded worker, trying to make it in a rapidly changing workplace. He’s smart enough to realize he can be a part of the evolution by talking about it, forcing the issue, and letting managers in on top worker concerns.

HR departments and managers should read his posts hungrily, because chances are, most of their Gen Y employees would agree with him, and the rest would have their own opinion, probably a different one than their organizations and bosses. So at least he’s starting conversations on the issues that matter to us.

Just as Penelope noted that this very comment stream is a focus group for her about her blog, her posts and Ryan’s posts should be a something decision makers are tuning in to just as keenly as as focus group and actually using in how they run their businesses. Or in the end, they’ll be left in the dust by companies and organizations that do.

I’ve often wondered how you cope with the dreadful comments you sometimes get. I hope you’re not taking them too seriously. I have a lot of spare time in my working day which leads me to read a lot of blogs. Brazen Careerist is by far and away the one I most look forward to reading (and the one I can most rely upon to have a new, and interesting, post).

Hey Penelope, where do I get my percentage for being part of the focus group? ;-)

I agree with a lot of the others here that the “anti” comments are useful for balance and to see where the other side is coming from. Just as Ryan’s comments are useful to see the perspective of a freshly-minted college grad, starting out in the work world. If any of the business people out there reading this give a rat’s arse about first impressions, you should sit up and take notes whether you agree with him or not.

The problem I have occasionally with Ryan’s posts is this sense that he is thinking of himself as the voice of his generation — and as a result, he seems apt to make sweeping generalizations that are seemingly impossible to back up. I always find those sorts of statements not particularly helpful in a singular context. However, they do cue me in on what to listen for in other contexts to learn if the generalizations have some accuracy. Also, to be honest, because he has positioned himself as an “everyman” for the twenty-something group, his voice isn’t as interesting as yours.

But, you know me, I’m always bugging you to source your statistics better. Ever find out how the $40,000 was arrived at? ;-)

Penelope,

I don’t really have the time to read through all your comments on this post, even at the risk of repeating someone else in this one. Seems like you have your fair share of supporters and antagonists, and with anyone who presents a new idea (in your case, a series of new, counterculture, workforce ideas), this should be expected.

I say this to encourage you, because I feel like you have a fairly good notion of the workforce today, and I’m glad you are not deterred by the angry people of this world who feel the need to share their discontent with the rest of us.

To further encourage you, I want to say I read your book, loved it, and I’m looking forward to the next! Although, please write on a different subject, or at least approach careers with a different angle, otherwise I’ll be tempted to compare you with the Robert Kiyosaki’s of the world, who publish practically the same book over and over again, still charging $17.95 for each new installment in their series. You have an unparalleled creativity in your thoughts and ideas that I don’t see in many writers, and I hope you allow this developed talent to govern your course and not the sales number.

In my opinion, you’re doing great, and if you don’t get negative feedback from what you say, there’s a chance no one is listening :)

To borrow from Steve Jobs who made an incredible speech to a Stanford graduating class (easily found on the web) . . . “Stay Hungry. Stay Foolish”

Matt

My blog if you ever want to check it out is: http://www.soyouwouldthink.blogspot.com/
As for your question. I actually starting reading your blog because Jennifer Weiner (author) said some negative comments about you on her blog. And I’ve been checking back with you ever since. I don’t think it matters what these people say, if you have this many people reading your blog, then they must be coming to you for something. I like your blog because you don’t hold back your opinion and sometimes it’s not the typical opinion the experts would voice. But it is one that we all think but don’t have the guts to say. We’re all supposed to be happy with our work and you show that we all do not have that opinion and it’s okay to want more.

I think there’s a distinction that needs to be made between angry comments like “you are awful” and reasoned counterpoints. Ryan’s article inspired a lot of people to forcefully disagree with him. I do - I’m a Gen Xer and I think he is going to be in for a rude and brutal awakening in his mid 30s. But that’s far different than if I lashed out by calling him a name. Penelope suffers from being on Yahoo, which is just behind the NY Times for apparently attracting professional trolls. I think Penelope’s writing style is great even when I don’t agree with what she says. Ryan has a ways to go to get the same tone down, rather than sounding (as he often does) a little smug for someone who’s just starting out in life. Just my opinion.

The audience of Yahoo finance - especially the ones who post messages to it, tend to be wanna-be office day traders, people who “pump” or “bash” stocks in pathetic attempts to move the price, and perhaps, wall street types who tend to have a high “asshole quotient” (to use a Bob Suttonism here somewhat liberally).

Nothing to see there. Not worth your time to be worried about it. I think Yahoo would probably tell you the same thing if asked.

Penelope,

I have been hooked on your ramblings for many years now. Not that it was the pinnacle of your writing but I was solidly hooked with that description of your 9/11 experience. (Although I had been reading your stuff for quite awhile before then.) I should probably add (some — those that are pulling your chain, perhaps — may find it useful to make a big deal about) that I am probably old enough to be your grandfather — certainly old enough to be your father. Consequently, my remarks will not (and should not) have that much weight among those who have sent you these discouraging remarks. So what?

In any event, my age does give me one thing that is (or should be) very valuable to you. That is the 20/20 vision of looking into the past.

Oh! That I had listened to myself, forty years ago, when I said those things you are now saying — how easy life would have been.

Anyway, any judgement(s), of any real importance, about your actions will come long after you have left this world. Consequently, just “Keep on keepin on” and don’t worry about all the small minded people surrounding you. Their comments will not amount to a “hill of beans” when all is said and done.

If it helps: Always remember that statistically speaking, 50% of the population of the world is dumber than the other 50%. So just categorize as you deem appropriate. (Observe which is the more vocal group.)

You go girl!

Ron

I agree. However, I think those abrasive comments are just obstacle and challenges. You don’t have to face every situation, especially if it’s not related to big picture.

I’m another one who discovered you as a result of a negative reference on another blog (Jennifer Weiner, I think? I don’t even remember what it was about, anymore…)

I enjoyed your perspective on work/family/life and I also live in Madison so I continue to read every day.

But the Yahoo comments - those I don’t read. Ever. I sometimes wonder if columnists read those comments and if they are bothersome.

The comments on your blog never seem to quite stoop to that level of meanness. It’s one thing to disagree. It’s another thing to be completely disrespectful and rude.

Penelope,

I work for one of the leading HR research/consulting firms in the talent management arena & spend tremendous time consulting our Fortune 500 clients on the very issues you regularly outline. In fact, I consider you one of the “cultural touchstones” that I seek out to either validate or expand my own points of view.

Just remember what you’re doing is in essence, issuing a call to action for the masses. We all know how people in general react to change, so why the surprise? Better to know that you have their attention rather than being ignored. Sooner or later, they will be slammed face first into one or more of the situations that you regularly outline and their moment of epiphany will be upon them.

Keep up the great work.

Stuart

To me it sounds like knee-jerk responses from people who are startled/dismayed/threatened by your approach to work. Think of yourself as a doctor testing reflexes.

But then there are all the rest of us, who think you’re spot on. Guess we should just tell you so more often!

I’m lucky enough to manage a small group of people, most of them older than me by at least 15 years. I say lucky because I’m glad I get to be in the driver’s seat with that generation. I think those of us in the “X generation” are sort of the fault line between old-school work-ethic boomers and new-school life-ethic Y generation kids.

I think it’s hilarious that a 16-year-old (in the comments of the post to which you linked) mistakes you for a 50-something-year-old. Ha! Such comments bring into high relief–and here I borrow a term from Woody Allen–the jejeunosity of such readers.

Clearly the Yahoo! finance readers aren’t comfortable with well-educated, accomplished, young women who DARE to offer advice.

You can’t please everyone. I think you do a terrific job. Keep up the good work!

There are those where I work that want to do the minimum and are thinking about keeping their job until retirement and there are those who want to actually contribute. Your columns are clearly targeted toward the latter. Why waste life with people who don’t get it, move on to another company that does and if you find the right one, make it last until they stop being effective.

…well, plus you have a nice smile! ;)

Penelope,

One of the things I most value about your writings is that your perspective is so different from mine - and yes, that’s probably a generational thing. (I worked at the same company for 20+ years before starting my own business.)

I appreciate being exposed to different ways of thinking about the world of work. I know that there have been HUGE changes in the workplace since I started my corporate career, and it’s nice to have your window into that new world.

Jeri

obviously enough people find what you do to be a good thing . for you to be a regular on yahoo. thats pretty far up the food chain. the more prominent you become, the mor positive and negative attention you receive. note paris hilton. who i love. and the flack she is getting. shes an american icon. an american princess.

something i read said to find the germ of helpful truth in every criticism. that you learn more from criticism than from praise.

just keep grinding.

Does it really matter what people have to say?

Penelope,

I love your blog and read it every day. I will graduate next spring from an ivy league university with a BA in history and, thanks to my wonderful and supportive mother and grandmother, I will have only a few thousand dollars of student loans. Although I won’t have much debt, I will not, under any circumstances, get any handouts or “free rides” from my parents after I graduate.

My specific circumstances come next spring - broke but not in major debt - are a big part of why I love your blog, and why I think some people have so much trouble understanding the ideals behind your advice. I will not, nor thankfully am I financially required to, prioritize my cash flow over my happiness. In a lot of comments, it is assumed that people who are unwilling to push through unhappy jobs and unhealthy work environments are automatically lazy, living off their parents’ successes (hard-earned, mind you), and lack drive and ambition.

This is exactly your point, though, and why I find these comments irrelevant and, frankly, useless. I am an incredibly hard worker, I will not live off of anyone’s money but my own, and I am very driven (I had to be to get where I am in life thus far). I also refuse to value money over happiness, and your blog gives me advice on how to do just that but in a financially reasonable and like-minded manner. Take, for example, your advice about grad degrees. Many people said that you should get a graduate degree because it does actually make you more hireable and will get you more money in the long run. That’s entirely beside the point! If I want to spend a few years in grad school doing something I enjoy, I will make it work no matter what the financial repercussions; if I don’t want to, I won’t.

I am sick of being told to find a job and stick to it no matter how miserable I am. We seem to share the opinion that finding something that brings you satisfaction and allows you to support your desired lifestype is absolutely the best job for you, NOT finding the highest paid employment to give me financial stability. Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is not The Goal anymore! I am willing to live extremely modestly for the next few years (pb&j, anyone?) so that I can try new things, job hop, maybe take a few gap months here and there, and see what makes me tick. With my “name school” degree, I could easily find a mediocre job in a mid-size city and immediately start saving up so that old folks will think I’m being “responsible”, but that would be an utter waste of my talents. My lifestyle of choice, on the other hand, will require every last ounce of dedication, drive, ingenuity, and creativity on my behalf so that I can support myself financially AND personally.

You don’t encourage people to be lazy and self-centered. You give advice for people who are willing to forge their own path in life and want to do so responsibly and wholeheartedly. Your words give me great guidance and the people who scorn you simply cannot see the value in prioritizing personal satisfaction over, or at least on the same level as, financial status.

I disagree. I think that you are receiving comments that are more abrasive and degrading. I don’t know why people feel the need to personally express hatred and anger toward you for trying to offer guidance and assistance to others that are searching for career help/insight/education. I don’t feel you are trying to tell anybody how to live their life or how they should feel, so, its hard to understand how some of these people can become so incensed. I have seen this behavior throughout my entire life ( people openly degrading others as losers because of …you fill in the blank )and have never understood it. Some of these types of people have overcome more humble beginnings but many more in my experiences have come from nice middle income and very upper income backgrounds. Its almost like the juvenile behavior on the playground and on the bus from childhood. It can’t contribute to a healthy relationship with someone because sooner or later that attitude will be deployed against the “love of their life.” They seem to be equally represented in all age demographics. Anyway, such crude comments are not worth listening to. Thanks for the columne Penelope.

Penelope, age is just a number. Keep up the great work!
I’m 23 years old, and I teach a weekly personal growth class to people in my office 3 times my age. Age is never an issue… wisdom is timeless :)

Well, you know I have issues with the current free-for-all approach over on Y!Finance blog comments. A few additional thoughts:

1)as far as blogs go, any comments are better than no comments. Pragmatic but true, IMO. It’s sad how many blogs (including some that are supposedly fairly popular) have few-to-no comments.

2) The comments nastiness index seems to vary by blog type and blog popularity. Blogs that attract the nasty: very popular blogs; more personal blogs; opinion blogs (including political blogs). By comparison, the corporate or professionals’ blogs get many fewer but generally more polite comments.

3) Both in terms of the technology and the social norms, I don’t think we all have fully figured out how to cope with the ocean of assholery in online life. Blog comments are just part of it. Per comments specifically, the voting system (like Slashdot and Digg use) is one technical coping method; we need more.

4) fwiw, blog comments are generally in line with historical trends around customer feedback. The rule-of-thumb with customer sat is that most customers (regardless of whether they are happy, unhappy or neutral) don’t give any feedback, and in general happy customers are less likely to give feedback than unhappy customers.

5) gender stuff definitely influences this whole dymanic, I’m just don’t have a nice neat summary for that yet. Both women and men can be nasty and bullying online, no doubt. But IME (some) men tend to be more outright insulting (”you idiot” “you’re incompetent”) than (most)women tend to be, and certainly (some) men use more violent language and imagery (ie the Kathy Sierra incident). Both of these more aggressive communication styles can be very jarring to people who have a more restrained comm style.

Penelope,

Any advice is likely to be criticized by someone but there is no perfect solution for everyone’s issues. It’s interesting to read how you dealt with the issues you have faced but I’m not going to agree with all of what you have to say.

With regard to Ryan, the interesting point is just how far from reality. He writes how many early 20’s employees feel, mainly:

“Where is the career I was promised? I went to University/College and was expecting the career ladder to be paved with gold”

He misses the fundamental point of thinking what an employer can do for him rather than what he can do for an employer. I was the same until I realised that if I can make myself a valuable asset to my employer, the rewards are better than job hopping hoping for the grass to be greener on the other side.

Hey Penelope, I bet you’re delighted to be likened to Paris Hilton! Remember, they meant it as a compliment!

I think most of what I wanted to say has already been said by others above. I don’t think the comments you linked to were all that abrasive and some of them make some good points - eg. your Yahoo columns should probably link to the original sources, not your blog. Having a blog can only establish you as an expert if you have some expertise to showcase. I think you do and you show it on the blog, but maybe the Yahoo posts need to show more because it’s for a different audience.

When comments are personally abusive, I think you should either delete or disregard. When it’s someone disagreeing with you, I think that’s okay.

I think Ryan’s blog is fine for what it is - the hopes and aspirations of a generation in their first jobs just out of college. I think it’s fine when he is writing about his own experience and his hopes, but I’m not sure he is in a position to offer advice yet. To be fair, I don’t think he does, but it does make his postings less valuable.

Most older people (by which I mean late twenties or older!) probably don’t get a lot out of his postings because we remember what it was like to be 23 and we don’t need to be told. We keep being told that it’s so radically different but speaking as a late Gen X-er (I’m 31), it doesn’t really *sound* that different.

The main differences between 1997 (my first year out of university) and 2007 are that a) the economy is better so young people have more choices and b) student debt is higher so young people have fewer choices.

Otherwise, I suspect the experience of being 23 is not all that different to my experience of being 23 in 1999. And I would like to think that the experience I’ve gained in the past eight years counts for something - some of the commenters on Ryan’s posts actually seem to think it’s a *bad thing*.

Penelope,

First, if Mother Theresa blogged on Yahoo!, she’d probably get a lot of really nasty comments; that’s just the crowd you find there. Anonymity combined with immaturity makes for a powerfully bad combination.

While being able to accept and learn from criticism is always a good thing, but “you aren’t old enough” and “you don’t have enough experience” aren’t really constructive or useful, so just ignore them and move on.

That being said, my guess is that what really draws out the bad comments is that your articles often seem to imply that you know what is best for everyone. Sometimes you make the distinction that someone’s individual situation may call for something different from what you are talking about, but often your statements are not very nuanced and come across as “one size fits all”.

Put more simply, everyone’s situation is unique, and you sometimes project what is working for you onto other people in a rather absolute way. You have a lot of good ideas and advice, but not all of it is going to appropriate to everyone.

But never let a Yahoo! comment bring you down. Consider the source.

Chris Kerns

When you challenge the dominant culture, you’re going to take alot of hits.
Life is short, so just do good where you can, act “appropriately,” and be true to yourself. This advice is really tough to do on a personal level, it is almost impossible in the public forum - where you exist:)
That is life.

Penelope,

I don’t agree with these comments - To me your ideas fall right into this generation of workforce. I really enjoy your columns and have actually chuckled to myself on how direct you are. You will always get people that complain, that’s just how it works. Keep up the good work!!

Well, I’m 56, retied (briefly) and went back to work. I purposefully went from a full time job working pretty much in isolation to take a part time job working with college students. And it’s great! I signed up for Penelope Trunk’s advice because I think she has a lot of sound advice. I don’t think nasty remarks are a reflection of an age group but of a type of personality. It’s easy to be rude and a bully at any age. It’s more difficult to be thoughtful. I don’t agree with 100% of what Penelope Trunk has to say, and some of what she writes doesn’t apply to me…so what? That leaves a lot of information that I can use. If it counts for anything, I’m a baby boomer who is still learning, and will keep on reading Penelope Trunk as long as she keeps on writing.

What is interesting about all those comments is that they all say something like “yet ANOTHER…” or “AGAIN, this stinks….” which suggests that these are frequent readers of your blog. My question is: why they would continue reading your columns daily if they thought they were so bad??? I think it is either some people with an agenda against you or supposed know-it-all’s who can’t stand to admit that you’re coming up with good advice. In general, I tend to find your columns useful and interesting. The soft skills advice is helpful to consider when going about my day and I have even taken up following some of your advice on organization (keeping lists, handwritten). I say shake off the “haters” out there and keep doing what you’re doing.

I think that the responses you cited are not well thought out and immature. What can you say to someone that basically says you suck at what you do withour stooping down to their level? It seems to me that those are just inflammatory comments to get your feathers ruffled.

People will always disagree with your opinions. The more immature ones will post reponses like that. However, It does show that many people out there do disagree, and that some of the advice you offer may not be palatable to some of the more traditional/conservative corporate guys (the average slacker doesn’t read yahoo finance).

Are you kidding me…you’re not gonna get an honest response from the people who SUBSCRIBE TO YOUR BLOG. I can only imagine your regular readers are just as dim-witted and helpless as you are. I read your articles for the same reason I look at accidents on the free way! They’re so bad how can I look away!?

I disagree. You are an inspiration to me. I am glad that you are writing a Yahoo column, otherwise I would never have found your blog, I think that the people who post the negative comment are either afraid of change or they believe that we should sacrifice and dedicate our whole lives to our careers. They don’t see that our generation doesn’t want to sacrifice our happiness for money. We don’t want to wait till retirement to enjoy our lives. Our career should be a reflection of who we are.
Ryan Healy doesn’t have a lot of experience, but he knows what he wants and that’s enough. Our whole generation values family and happiness more than money. It is not reasonable to work 60 hours pro week, except for entrepreneurs. The 40 hour week law was made for a reason.

OK, I’m 40 something, I have had a traditional corporate career, I am somewhat of a workaholic - but I think Penelope is GREAT. Why? I love the fact that she isn’t afraid to be politically incorrect. She is authentic. She is candid and not “pat” in her answers though her style is breezy and veers (sometimes) a little too close to glib. She writes about the stuff that swirls around in my head but in a way that is articulate and - for me- productive. I’ve recommended her blog to my staff (mostly 30 somethings) and they get a lot out of it too, especially the work/life and parent thing (new parents in my team). I think the folks who gripe about Ryan’s inexperience are missing the point. His expertise is in allowing those of us of a certain age and mindset get a peek into this cohort’s values and concerns. Does he represent a middle/upper middle class elite? most likely - if he had oodles of debt like most grads he might be a little more conservative - but hey, I read it for the insight into a group with which I have very little contact. For that, it’s interesting… And anyway I agree, 60 hours a week is painful - whether you have kids or not. Seeking balance and understanding tradeoffs at a young age is not a bad thing.

Penelope, if you got comments like sine qua non’s on your blog constantly, then you’d have a problem. But I chalk up the mudslinging on Yahoo! to be just the nature of the bea