Read this if you think you don’t have Aspergers
Recently I wrote about how most women over 40 working full-time in an office have autism. One of the comments on that post was from Marcy. She wrote:
You left out one or two categories of women still working: those who have ADHD/are easily bored (me), and those who have much older spouses on Medicare so must work for benefits for herself and the kiddos (also me). I stayed home for a year but was bored silly so went back to work but have changed jobs, on average, every 2.25 years…also because boredom. And my husband is 18 years older and can no longer offer us medical benefits. Oh and I’m INFJ.
Here is my reply to Marcy, which I think will actually help a lot of people.
Marcy, you have autism. Here’s why:
Women with ADHD probably all have autism. ADHD is on the autism spectrum. The reason so many women are diagnosed with ADHD instead of autism is that mental health professionals don’t know what autism looks like in women. The mental health community has been diagnosing ADHD in women for a long time. The same thing with OCD. Or eating disorders. So those are the diagnoses people feel comfortable handing out to women.
We know that most women who have these disorders are on the autism spectrum. And I have never met a woman with ADHD, OCD, or an eating disorder who did not also have a bunch of other symptoms pointing to autism.
“Kids are boring” is an autism thing. Once you reach age 40, only women with autism say, “I work because I’d be so bored at home.” People with autism use “bored” to describe most negative emotions. But taking care of children is disruptive, annoying, unpredictable, out of control, and emotionally demanding. Who could call that boring? Only someone who has a limited ability to describe negative feelings, which is what autism is.
Moreover, by age 40, most people realize that staying home with kids is not something we do because it’s scintillating. Parents who stay home do it for the emotional connection and emotional fulfillment. People with autism don’t have conversations about emotions, people with autism have conversations about logic. So, logically, there is no reason to stay home with kids.
As new parents, neurotypical women and women with autism are equally likely to say parenting is boring. But neurotypical people stop saying that after a few years of learning to be a parent. Women with autism say it forever.
For the curious: Neurotypical women who work instead of taking care of kids say they work because they are driven to do XX and that’s what they’re doing at work. So you can think of it as neurotypical women working past 40 are internally driven TOWARD accomplishing something big. Women with autism over 40 are driven to GET AWAY from what they don’t like doing. The difference between these women is really easy to spot.
Attracting people outside your own age group is an autistic trait. Women who marry men who are not similar in age typically have autism. Remember, the way to peg autism is to look at what most women do. autism is being a-typical for your gender. So you could talk about if it’s good or bad to hang out with people who aren’t your age. Or is society good or bad, but whatever. Neurotypical women don’t do it.
People with autism have a hard time relating to other people. Women mask this problem with many tricks. One trick is becoming friends with someone who is not close in age and/or at a different stage in her life. This way the woman does not look that weird. Having friends who are not at all similar to one’s own age is such a ubiquitous trait among school-aged girls who have autism that it’s frequently listed as a way to identify girls who should be tested.
In terms of marriage, if the woman with autism is marrying someone a lot older than she is, it’s a treat because older men love younger women. And if the man is a lot younger than the woman it’s because that man does not have a frame of reference for how a typical women that age would be, so she looks more normal.
What I’m hoping people see from this response is how common it is for women who have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA they have autism to be dead ringers for autism. I think all day long, how can I locate more of these women? How can I help them know? Because women who discover later in life that they have autism are so relieved to finally be able to make sense of their life.
Women with autism are pretty terrible mothers. Because we are so good at using logic to tell ourselves that what we are doing with our kids is OK even though we are doing it for our own benefit and not for the kids’ benefit.
Most women parent by looking at what other women do. But women with autism don’t see what other women are doing. So we become parenting outliers and the kids suffer. I am including myself here. I catalogue my terrible judgment on this blog. And hopefully we all learn from it. The picture up top illustrates a nagging feeling I have that when I try to see my kids I really only see a small bit of them.
I spend a lot of time reading diatribes against narcissistic mothers. Almost all of them are classic examples of mothers with autism. (A good way to tell autism vs narcissism is that people with autsim don’t want to meet new people and narcissists like meeting new people.) I get sad thinking about autistic mothers being labeled narcissists because women with autism would be horrified to hear that they are being lousy parents.
Women with autism care deeply. And things can get better. We have to identify women with autism faster. We have to get people talking.
So many thoughts. Can marrying outside your racial group be a proxy for marrying outside your age group? My (ex, sort of) husband has custody of our four children and I am happy to be pursuing a career after being a SAHM/WAHM for ten years, although I have many, many fond memories of that time and consider it having being very worthwhile. I do think I am a good mom though, and think you are too. Even though being a good mom, in my case, included ceding custody to their father. But I am Muslim, so in my religion that’s technically what is supposed to happen (bar some destructive behaviour/issues).
I’m going to talk to my doctor about getting assessed. My brother and dad are ADHD, I am an engineer, now in my early 40s, and I work because I like working and I would be bored at home SAHM-ing. I’m an ENTP though. (That E flipped from an I when I was younger, but the other letters are strongly in their sections)
My career models a trait you’ve talked about many times though, I am a “very good” communicator and team builder… but this is in a mostly male environment, so the bar is much lower than if it was mostly women.
Whooohoooo! I’m so happy to hear that, Joanne. Thank you for being open-minded enough to consider all these ideas. I hope you’ll let us know how it goes with the doctor.
Beware: 90% of women are undiagnosed because people have no idea how to diagnose women. Until only a couple of years ago, people were taught in school that women and men with Autism would have the same traits. But Autism in women and men looks very different. Make sure the person you go to is aware of this.
Actually, this is a good way to tell if you are going to someone capable of diagnosing you: ask the person if they are familiar with Simon Baron-Cohen’s research on women with Aspergers. If they say no, don’t go to that person. Baron-Cohen is the only scientist publishing useful tools to diagnose women.
Penelope
Penelope, do you have a quiz or something to figure out if I have Asperger’s? I never thought I did, but then the “Aspergers is being a-typical for your gender” sentence threw me off.
I’m an INFJ, had a hard time socializing as a kid but did a lot better in university (where I studied International Relations), have a great career but work mostly with older boys (finance and tech) where I’m seen as a great communicator, I don’t like groups because it’s easier to connect with individuals (but that might be an Introvert thing). I’ve read a ton ever since I was little girl (can’t remember not knowing how to read and I can’t fall asleep without reading first). In my free time I’m a volunteer firefighter. One of my senior devs recently told me, when we were talking about women in the workplace, “oh but you’re different, you have a masculine brain”. I always got along better with people who were older than me (I skipped a grade in school, and because I had my Master’s when I was only 22, I ended up working with people who were always at least 5 years older than me). I love languages, can work in 5 and have studied several others (currently focusing on Japanese). Female friends my age have told me that I am sometimes a bit rough (like hanging up the phone too quickly) but nothing dramatic. I am a bit clumsy though, frequently dropping things or knocking things over.
When I read the above, I think “wow this does look like someone on the spectrum”. But then, I have no trouble with executive function, I’m on top of everything admin, I’m well organized, I’m aware of social situations.
But are these all just “tricks” I’ve learned to deal with a mild form of Asperger’s?
Most women are not diagnosed until middle age because the mental health profession has no idea how to handle the female version of autism. When I am in a coaching session, I can give you a list of the traits you exhibit — on the call and in the stories you tell me about your life — and you can make the decision for yourself. Or you can read a lot about women with Autism and make the decision.
Most women with Aspergers tell a story you tell in your comment — you have known for a while that something is off. But you didn’t know what to do with that information.
Most women who know they have Aspergers could probably read your comment and conclude that you have Aspergers. And we will have to start doing that for each other. Because it’s a huge relief to know you have it — you can explain so much more about your life.
Mental health professionals lack confidence to make a diagnosis. I mean, the mental health profession is so scared to make a diagnosis that they got rid of the specific Autusim term of Aspergers — this way everyone can just fit into one, big, murky pool of autism.
You should take the course I made about Aspergers. It includes a great, weekly group for people with Aspergers. And almost everyone is like you. Really. You will be so relieved.
Here’s a link:
https://www.quistic.com/seminar/best-asperger-hacks
Penelope
Hi Joanne BB I too was considered a very good communicator, warm and kind, etc when I worked in hi tech as an engineer for 22 years I then retired and became a high school teacher and found out that I wasn’t so warm, kind, good at communicating, especially compared to the typical female teacher!. I’ve always been quite absent minded, gotten very good grades, been an out of the box thinker, and don’t have lasting relationships with men. I’m thinking that I’m on the spectrum as well too. Although my life has overall been happy and I have a good relationship with my child.
This is a great comment! Thank you Charlene. So often we tell ourselves “I’m a good communicator” or “I’m a good mom” or “I’m not good at math.”
But everything matters in terms of who we are comparing ourselves to. Women working with men are good communicators. Girls in math classes with boys who have Aspergers are not good at math. Women who had a mom with undiagnosed Aspergers and are trying to be better are not necessarily good moms. We need to compare ourselves to the typical mom. Just like girls in math class need to compare themselves to typical girls. And women at work need to compare their communication skills to typical women (who are, invariably, not in the office).
Be wary of the times you tell yourself you are good at something. First decide who you are comparing yourself to.
Penelope
My husband is 17 years older than me, but my core group of girlfriends are all my age and I have known them for over 20 years since we were all in junior high. I’m quite social and don’t mind making small talk with just about anyone and don’t have ADHD, so maybe being attracted to someone older is genetic? My father is 10 years older than my mother (they’ve been happily married for 41 years) and my mother is about the furthest thing from having Asperger’s. She’s social and loved being a stay at home mom and now she enjoys babysitting my niece and nephew. Her closest friends are also in her age range. Is it possible to kind of have Asperger’s, like Asperger’s lite, hence saying on the spectrum, or is it one of those all or nothing things? I score highly on being able to read nonverbal and social cues in others and the day to day tasks that seem so difficult for someone with Asperger’s aren’t issues for me. Maybe I’m not really an INFJ, but every time I test that’s what I score.
Here are red flags in this email:
Women usually do not keep their core group of friends from childhood. It’s an Aspergers thing. Because women with Aspergers have a very difficult time making friends after childhood. So that core group from childhood is likely much more meaningful and primary in the life of a woman with Aspergers life than it is for the neurotypical women in the group.
Another red flag is your mother. She had a very contained life, which is something that it typical oof women with Aspergers. If you stay at home with kids and then you stay at home with your kids’ kids then you can be high functioning in a very small world. And you can look social even though you are not meeting new people in new situations.
Neurotypical women like meeting new people. This is from our DNA because girls left the tribe to marry and boys stayed with the tribe. A woman who sets up her life so that it is very contained and predictable looks like she is “doing fine” but actually she’s very limited and probably limiting the experiences of her children (which may or may not be okay).
Penelope
I’m just getting back from vacation, but wanted to address a few things. I know several examples of people, women and men,who have maintained long term, close friendships with friends from childhood. These are decades long friendships. This seems too common to say it’s not something neurotypical people do.
My mom originally “left the tribe” but came back and then it was my father who left the tribe. My father is from the Middle East. My parents married when my father was in the U.S. for graduate school. About a month after their marriage, they had to return to my father’s home country. My mother had never been outside of the U.S. before, she’d never been on an airplane. She spent five years in a different country with a different language (which she didn’t speak) and different culture. She knew no one going over except my father, fortunately, his family loved her and she became close with them. It’s also where my brother and I were born. She says she’s very glad to have experienced that because she grew up a lot and gained a lot from fully immersing herself in another country. Fast forward to the early 80s and tensions started rising between the U.S. and my birth country. My parents figured they needed to leave then or they might not be able to, so we moved to the U.S. for good. Then it became my father leaving behind his family and home country. He’s only been back once since leaving in 1983 due to instability. So, my mother has had some parts of a contained life, but also trial by fire and getting way out of her comfort zone early on. She was a stay at home mom until my brother and I were teens then started working part time and continues to work part time today.
As for me, I crave novelty. Like I said, I just got back from a week vacation out of the country and I’m already looking forward to the next trip. I have my core, ride or die friends, but also love meeting new people. I feel like there’s more nuance. Or maybe I’m a self centered narcissist sometimes.
Heh, I might be Asberger’s, but if so it’s a very broad definition, and I’m high enough functioning that it doesn’t seem like a diagnosis would add much to my life.
Divorced mom of 3, never quit working (though I have a flexible enough consulting job that I work at home pretty regularly, and I cut back to 4 days a week 15 years ago when my first was born, with pretty flexible hours.) INTJ (the “N” and the “J” are somewhat wishy-washy, and the “I” and the “T” are set in stone.) And yes, taking care of kids is pretty boring – when they were young they had a full-time nanny who was good at the various socializing-type things that I would’ve been crap at, so it always felt like they were in good hands. I’d quit my job if I suddenly found myself independently wealthy, but working at a job is much easier and pleasanter than staying home and dealing with the house and the kids. The spreadsheets rarely whine about food choices.
“The spreadsheets rarely whine about food choices”. That’s a great line…it had me laughing….
istj
At work people care about your ideas and the work you get done, and you received rewards. Parenting kids is not about rewarding you for anything. It’s about you giving love and receiving log. You do not get acknowledgment for a job well done. You don’t get a promotion. So what you tell your kids is that you guys love each other no matter what, so you want to spend your days getting attention for your ideas and deliverables etc.
You implicitly tell your kids you are not enough of the focus at home for you to stay home all day. They remember that. This is why are the message boards about narcissistic moms are actually about Asperger moms.
A defining trait of Aspergers is that the person with Aspergers thinks things are fine. The first time a person realizes that Aseprgers is a problem is when someone they care about says they can’t handle it anymore. And the person with Aseprgers will be like, What? Handle What? What is the problem?
Aspergers is a disorder where we inadvertantly hurt people very badly. And we often have no idea. This is very common with parenting. The Asperger parent has a difficult time seeing things from the kids’ perspective. And the Asperger parent doesn’t realize that. That’s the disorder.
Penelope
Based on everything you’ve said about women with Aspergers, it seems logical to conclude that they are all Thinkers as opposed to Feelers. Would you agree? I guess the exceptions would be very underdeveloped/immature/traumatized SFs and NFs. Otherwise, wouldn’t it be most efficient to administer mbti on women, then isolate all the STs and NTs and follow up with an Asperger’s test?
Hm, now that I’m thinking about it, it seems that all people with Aspergers, both men and women, would be Ts. Seems like a prerequisite.
-an INTJ woman without Aspergers (I’ve never been tested, but I’m defo aware of other ppl’s emotions)
There are definitely F’s with Aspergers. People with Aspergers are not unfeeling. It’s that we don’t notice things. So a person who is an F would be more focused on their own feelings than other people’s feelings. Just like a person with Aspergers who is a T is more focused on their own ideas than other people’s ideas.
Penelope
Ok. I can accept that.
On a different but somewhat related note, what about Narcissists? Again, it seems to me that they would all be extroverts vs introverts. But I feel like you’re about to tell me that they can be both E or I. Please enlighten. So far, all the narcissists I’ve encountered are strong E’s.
Covert narcissists can be introverts.
I’m interested in Penelope’s take on this question too.
I’m pretty sure my dad is a narcissist, and he is an introvert. He is deeply insecure and wants to make sure everyone believes his narrative, so he talks constantly. (And he’s the hero of every story.) But he feels drained from being with people. It’s a lot of work to try to make people like you!
Narcissists are not drained by being with people. Because people are the tool of a narcissist. Whereas someone with Aspergers is defensive with other people — like, please please see things my way so I don’t have to deal with change.
Penelope
This is my dad, too. The hero of every story. Every conversation is about fishing or the weather. Avoids every wedding invitation outside of family because it’s too draining. Spends most of his time in the woods alone for the past 40 years.
I know quiet a few descovered-we-were-autistic-after-kids-identified-as-autistic mothers, all at home and home educating our kids. Am wondering if child development / educating / learning about autism as particular interests is what works for some aspie mothers against the ‘boredom’ others might experience raising kids?
This is all about me. Thank you.
Everybody has Asbergers, everyone is a victim of circumstances, everyone is aggrieved and misunderstood
I have loved reading your content since my sister first shared it with me years ago. I don’t always identify exactly with all your Aspergers traits, though I have always felt “outside” of. I do tend to ID a lot of other people as “on the spectrum”,though. And there are a slew of grandkids (boys) that definitely could be identified, but haven’t been. I’ve found a nice niche as a coach; finding my way with myself and helping a few people along the way.
Thank you for opening a forum where some of us can explore why we have always felt a little broken.
Very interesting thoughts, although I think perhaps wearing Aspergers as a badge of honour might be radically attributing it as opposed to other more common factors. I have some comments:
“Women with ADHD probably all have Aspergers”: I think it’s more likely women who have decreased attention spans probably need more exercise and physical activity in their lives or might be suffering from conditions such as diabetes or PCOS in which they are unable to focus or sit still.
“Kids are boring is an Aspergers thing” : Kids demand a lot of energy and attention, and it might be that people who tend to be more introverted and prefer being alone or having silence around the house might not be used to catering to other people. This isn’t a boring thing, rather I think it’s just indicative of how some people need more personal space than others. Also people who grew up with nannies as children might think the same thing as they might be a little removed from their own mothers, so could be reflective of their upbringing.
“Attracting people outside your own age group is an Asperger’s trait”: I think attracting people outside one’s age group is a sign of maturity and openness in personality. As a teen, I had lots of friends in their 30s and still now I have friends in many age groups. I think only limiting yourself to friends of the same age is indicative of conformity in thinking. Quite frankly, I dislike how most people in my generation are addicted to social media and feel they have to post selfies everywhere they go and constantly scrolling through facebook or instagram when out to dinner. I just have no interest in it, and find that I tend to attract people from different backgrounds and life experiences because I find them much more interesting.
“Women with Aspergers are pretty terrible mothers”: Generally I think women who lack emotional intelligence would probably make terrible mothers. Kids need affection, guidance, love, attention, physical activity etc….just like pets lol. Then again some people with terrible mothers end up fine. I feel like “Aspergers” is just a term that we associate with a lack of emotional maturity or emotional intelligence, and not necessarily by its medical definition which is delayed motor development and speech problems.
Hi Logan, I agree that Penelope makes a lot of sweeping statements without evidence, but to me the whole point of reading Penelope is to go with her worldview and see where it leads. She’s a typical NT, starting with limited data, and using her intuition and thinking to put a story line together. She’s certainly given me something to think about but then again I’m NT as well so its what I like! What’s your Meyers Briggs Type?
There’s a lot of stuff here you can search on google scholar. Here are some phrases as examples:
narcissist vs Aspergers
ADHD working memory Autism
parent empathy outcome
do narcissists have empathy
autism girls late bloomer
autism girls age group
I hope this helps. And Charlene you’re right in that I love love love reading the research about Aspergers and drawing my own conclusions.
Penelope
So, women in the medical and legal fields? Driven? Aspie? Some of each? I’m thinking women with Asperger’s are a gift to the medical field. And explains why bedside manner is so hard and has to be taught?
There’s research from Oxford University that says people who become lawyers (and scientists and mathematicians) are most likely to be on the autism spectrum. People who have autism are not likely to go into medicine. The Asperger’s brain does better in science than medicine. Though as the medical field becomes lower paid and less prestigious, I think it’ll be filled with women. Medicine is one of the only good-paying jobs that you can do part-time.
Penelope
OMG. I have never met another woman who has changed jobs every 2-2 1/2 years (or at least that I was aware of). I have been diagnosed with ADHD and one doctor told me I had bipolar II and my cycles were just 2 years long. Um. Ok? Not.
But yes. Boredom. Extreme boredom. In college, I went to a school on quarters instead of semesters and it was wonderful. For the first time (high school was semesters), I could finish a class with a good grade instead of taking an incomplete or a lower grade from not studying. The school changed to semesters and my grades tanked again. It took me a long time to figure out why I was buying my books for the next semester before finals for the semester I was in.
My Myers-Briggs changes all the time. It’s very borderline on almost all the scales. And I’m super connected to some people and am often a go-to for friends with serious life issues. But I’m also childless, divorced and have dated several men 10 years older or younger. No desire to have kids. I know I would be a terrible mom.
I’m 50 and I’m terrified of the future. There will be a point where I can’t change jobs every two years. Right? Maybe? I don’t know. Everyone thinks I’m nuts and many have given up on me because I seem to go from crisis to crisis. Therapists just tell me to do fun things for myself and I’m dealing well since I have had to deal with way more than most people (long terrible history for another day and mostly unrelated to this like people dying and stuff).
I’m the original commenter. I got bored with schools, too – I transferred to 3 different undergraduate schools before I finally landed somewhere and stayed for the final two years! (And probably the only reason I did so was because of the 31-year-old man I met and started dating…)
This is fascinating for a number of reasons.
I never wanted to have kids, I wanted a career. I love working. But I got pregnant in my 20s and had a kid, and took a couple of years off to raise him because I had heard all of the research that said 2 years was the most benefit. When I stayed home, I treated it as my job and kicked ass at it.
I have ADHD, my kid has ADHD, a lot of people in my family have ADHD and Asperger’s. I don’t think ADHD is on the Asperger’s spectrum, but it has similarities and shares genes. It’s definitely a wiring issue.
I went to school for science and because consulting made it really hard to work as a parent, after 15 years, I did a career change and went into teaching science. I did this with your coaching, specifially telling me I’m an ESTP, not an ENTP, even though I’ve always felt I had a “male” brain, but I’m really great at socializing with others. My S/N testing has always been exactly 50/50, so I could see the ESTP fit.
Anyway, that’s one reason why I find this post so funny. You were adamant that I’m an ESTP, not ENTP, but yet, I absolutely have ADHD. I have had therapists who work specifically in ADHD and Asperger’s tell me I don’t have Asperger’s. So what is it? Can you have ADHD and be an ESTP?
…edited to add, I posted that after I very specifically thought I read something about NT types in Aspergers/ADHD. Did you remove it from an earlier post?
It’s widely known that therapists have missed diagnosing 90% of women with Aspergers. So the fact that some therapist told you they don’t think you have Aspergers is irrelevant. They haven’t had enough experience seeing women with Aspergers or time to learn about the latest research. (Seriously, I spend about three hours a day reading research about Autism and women. It’s a lot of work.)
So, public service announcement for the millionth time: you cannot rely on a mental health professional to diagnose you. You need to do it yourself.
Penelope
Amen! I’m self diagnosed and am just crawling out of the Aspergers closet.
What links can you share to back up your claim that ADHD is on the autism spectrum? Everything I find says that while the two share common traits, ADHD is not on the spectrum — but ADHD and autism do show up together an awful lot.
I wonder if what you’ve been writing about lately related to Asperger’s is actually an expansion of its definition.
You’ve told me before that I probably have Asperger’s. I was closed to the idea at the time. While I’m still not convinced, I’m also no longer closed. If it’s true now I wonder if I attracted a wife with it too. Some of what you write about fits. Not all of it. I don’t know.
You practically wrote the answer yourself: The spectrum is just a bunch of disorders that “share common traits” and “show up together a lot.” Mental health professionals don’t like to tell someone they have Autism. It takes a lot more confidence. But mental health professionals have confidence in their ability to diagnose ADHD.
When you write, “some of it fits but not all” that’s really the definition of Aspergers – that you don’t see a lot of what you do that is on the spectrum. If people with Aspergers could see everything they do that is Aseprgery then they wouldn’t have Aspergers.
Penelope
Let’s say I embrace my autistic traits and own my placement on the spectrum. What then? Because after all these years I’ve figured out how to live an effective life. Would admitting I’m autistic open me up to more stuff that would make my life better that I can’t imagine yet?
Here’s a narrative of my life that fits. As a boy I was socially awkward with my peers but related better with adults. I taught myself to read at age 3, but all through school was behind my peers in emotional development and in social skills. I developed an interest in vintage cameras at age 8 and have collected them ever since, 44 years and counting. I’ve owned as many as 300 cameras but have shrunk my collection to the 50 or so I like using most. I could tell you the whole history of film photography from the era it came into the hands of consumers — and I will, if you don’t stop me.
When I discovered computer programming at 14 (which was very unusual in that era) I thought FINALLY here’s something in life that MAKES SENSE. I went to engineering school where I found my people, other geeks like me who liked talking about things that mattered. I’ve worked in the software industry for 30 years.
Early in my career I realized my inability to “get” people was holding me back from experiences I wanted so I started to teach myself social skills by looking at what people with good ones did, and coming to recognize the patterns of external stimulus that caused them to behave in certain ways. Then I practiced recognizing those situations and then deploying the appropriate behavior in response, one at a time, until they became a part of me. So in a way I’m a social pattern recognition engine. I still struggle when a social interaction doesn’t follow one of the patterns I’ve come to recognize. But overall after working at it for 27 years most people wouldn’t guess that at 25 I looked at my shoes everywhere I went because I had no bloody idea what to do when someone said hello.
I need a LOT of downtime. Being in the world with its noise and randoness drains my battery. Quiet downtime at home recharges my battery. It’s one of the reasons I blog, because I can do that in quiet downtime at home, exploring what I think about whatever I care to write about, while still connecting with people all over the world. People who are interested in hearing about things like the history of consumer film photography, and say nice things about the knowledge I’ve built up.
That narrative sounds to me very asperger-y. But I could tell you two other equally true narratives that point more to a PTSD response to my childhood, or to just being quiet and shy. So I don’t know.
I love it when you think different thoughts from everyone else. But autism comes in gradations. It is not an absolute thing. Lots of diagnoses overlap – they are humon constructs, after all. The brain does not care for them.
Highly intelligent people, for instance, can often be easily confused with autistic people. Or are they autistic people with high intelligence? If they are very impulsive, do we call it ADHD or lach of patience with slower thinking people? Do we use different definitions, do we notice different things or are their brains really in different categories? I really don’t think it is as black and white as you paint it.
In my circle of friends and family I see people with autism who are impulsive, and people who are not. I see autistic people who marry, and peopple who don’t. Some succeed in their work, some don’t. There are no absolute values here. The ones who marry easily are pretty good looking ;-) The ones who succeed in their work are pretty social. Compared to the others in their autistic group.
Anyway. i think it is a relative thing, autism, not absolute.
I’m sure I have Asperger’s. I worked in a couple of jobs (for over 10 years each) and I always got promoted because I was “smart”. However I was a pretty awful supervisor & I always seemed to get in trouble for making “inappropriate” remarks to my employees or bosses. Apparently I could be kind of intimidating at times. I really tried to get along with people but it was a challenge and didn’t come naturally to me at all. And yes I have had older & younger friends throughout my life. Incidentally my adult son was born with Fragile X Syndrome (mental retardation with autistic tendencies), which means I am a carrier (not a full mutation but still some symptoms like social anxiety and OCD like traits).
I am curious whether you have ever looked into whether Fragile X carriers are more likely to have Asperger’s. Or at least similar symptoms. Not every carrier is going to have children with the syndrome, it is X linked and so the odds are 50/50 that the child of a carrier will have the full mutation. Interestingly, girls with the syndrome are less affected.
“Having friends who are not at all similar to one’s own age is such a ubiquitous trait among school-aged girls who have Aspergers that it’s frequently listed as a way to identify girls who should be tested.”
First time I heard this. This was me. When I was in 5th grade, I was friends with all the 8th grade girls. I didn’t get along with any girls my age. Pretty interesting.
I was ex-communicated by my dorm roommates (from my grade) because I preferred to hang out with Seniors (in high school).
So, I’m the Marcy who made the original comment about boredom (and older spouses). My first reaction to hearing that I have Aspergers was “What the eff? NO way.” But I was reading in bed last night and started thinking about the way I respond in certain situations, and my atypical characteristics, and while I’m still not convinced – I’m at least open to doing some research and thinking about it more deeply. I’m definitely going to investigate Baron-Cohen and some varied diagnostic tools.
The original post had me thinking that I may not make it to 40 in the workplace. I’m 31 right now, and I’m a neurotypical ENTJ, so work comes easily to me while spending time with 3 young kids isn’t very easy. That said, I don’t like being away from my kids so much, and it seems silly for me to work now that my husband’s business is actually earning a profit.
I saw the title of this post and mentally sighed. Penelope banging on about Aspergers again. But, you know, it hit the mark. I think I am. But tell me, Penelope, how does it help to know this? You (I mean we) still have our shitty relationships. Our not-good capacity for being In The World. The ASD is like a sentence. I can meditate to kingdom come and there will never be a way through.
It wasn’t until my son entered the public school system (I was an older mom – 36 when entered kindergarten) and he was diagnosed with Aspergers that I had to consider it might have “come from” me. I never could (and still can’t) figure out why people don’t understand my son (now 23). EVERYTHING he does makes sense to me. That realization was eye-opening.
I know that I was not a wonderful, nurturing mother. It wasn’t something I knew how to do. I have (for the most part) forgiven myself for that as I do know that I was always an advocate for my son and still am. A bad parent? Maybe? Definitely a different type of parent
Now what. Seriously, you’ve convinced me. The pieces clicked. I think you may be right. Heck, I’ve read several dozen articles on Asperger’s in the last 24 hours. But what isn’t clear to me is now what.
I have anxiety every time I say something that I can objectively tell might be subjectively offensive. Its crippling. It lasts for days. I learn what subjects are triggers and no longer discuss them except with my husband (also career driven, also doesn’t want kids, also we have the dog, monthly financial meetings, and we are happy). Its the only thing I think I might change about my whole life but its only a couple of days a month. Aside from that I’m weird but 9 out of 10 on a happy scale. I journal my anxiety in case it gets to be more days than I realize at which point I’ll seek medication.
So is there something I’m missing? Is there a value I would get from therapy? What would next steps look like?
Elle, I created an Asperger course because so many women were asking me the same question you are: what do I do next?
The course is amazing because It’s amazing to talk with women like us. I’ve coached thousands of women with Aspergers (literally!) and I have learned so much about myself from talking with them. That’s how I knew a course where people got to hear what I hear would be transformative.
Not only did people figure out from the class what to do next. People also didn’t want the class to end. So we continue to meet each week online — via video. Well, I’m on video. And other people who want to are on video. We have so much fun because everyone has Aspergers. Everyone has been trying to look normal for so long. Everyone has kids who are just like us. It’s the only place I’ve ever felt normal.
I hope you’ll try the course — and join the group afterward. Here’s a link:
https://www.quistic.com/seminar/best-asperger-hacks
Penelope
I have a love hate relationship with labels but I see the logic of them in attempting to describe part of the whole. I am Married with two children. I do not feel like a Mother or a Wife. I have a partner my age but he gets me to a greater degree than most and that helps. My Daughter passed away four years ago leaving me with one child to focus on and I don’t grieve like others. Initially the loss made me feel like I was dead or dying. Physical pain not so much emotional. I guess I just except things as they come and don’t ever look back on things. My daughter had intractable epilepsy that was relentless and I think my obsessive tendencies for research made it possible for me to find options and therapies that gave her short life more quality and comfort under unsurmountable odds. I love much deeper than most people know and I can relate to Elle with respect to anxiety over how my comments are interpreted. I am also empathic which is a very weird relationship to my logical, removed tendencies. I am so tuned in that anxiety is a constant reminder of the abrasiveness of environments. Being able to intuit things before they happen is quite a discomfort to a logical mind but it does help in dealing with things as they happen. My relationship with employment has been one of brief periods of focused commitment and often led to radical employment changes with periods between of unemployment. I currently enjoy part time self employment but as a person who struggles with fibromyalgia I navigate my days on a pain scale and do what I can when I can. I like working from home where I can control my environment. I mentor and supervise my Son as he unschools from home, he is a free learner with no constraints as I wish I had that option when I was young. We like not following the status quo. I am not at all a follower and I find the most important qualities being integrity and freedom. I am different.. I am done making excuses for that. I live the life that feels most authentic. I am lucky to have a great partner and cool kid but I struggle with cohabitation. Some days I long for isolation or to spend time with total strangers. I don’t know if I have Aspergers but I know I am odd. I am uncomfortable around people my own age and I would say my fondest friends are at least 20 years younger or older than I am. I don’t know if a diagnosis or another label would be beneficial. I guess I am learning to be happy with me but I would like to stop biting my nails and clenching my teeth from my unhealthy relationship with stress.
For the mom with the child that died of intractable Epilepsy- Kim-
I am in healthcare and have worked with kids. What you are describing is one of the hardest things parents can go through, and all I could think of was how much PTSD I would have in your scenario, along with a huge amount of cumulative grief. The entire time you had to repress many difficult feelings. I hope you are getting some help for those feelings and wish you all the best. Am so sorry for what you have been through.
Why are you perpetuating stereotypes? Not all women with Asperger’s are terrible mothers. I was diagnosed with autism, Asperger’s at age 41 soon after my daughter was diagnosed. I have two University degrees and I have been unschooling my two kids for ten years now. It’s not easy but I’ve always followed my instincts and it is clear that my priority is to my children and raising them outside of an institution. I’m in the process of starting up two businesses from home now that my kids are a bit older. But they have always come first and I’m Aspie so please do more research and stop generalizing about us. Thanks!
Psychology is hardly an exact science. Give her a break.
Late to the party… interesting thoughts. Do you think giftedness (as an IQ of above 145, not 130 because they can still adjust) can be had without autism? You write a lot about aspergers which is just gifted people with autism. But what about ‘just’ gifted women? Or is the way you see Aspergers is that all women with a high IQ are totally weird, which I think is true by the way. But they can still have empathy (Not the same as sympathy which autistic people do have).
I’m one of three sisters who are all gifted over 145. I’m aspie but am pretty high functioning thanks to some heavy duty early intervention from a fabulous therapist. My sisters are “just” very gifted and there are definitely differences – I have meltdowns about emotional stuff because I can see that I’m doing it wrong (thanks, therapy!) but struggle to figure out how to do it right in the moment or apply the correction to future not-identical interactions; my sisters have frustrations about friends who don’t get them, but their emotional relationships are very different and they’re much less likely to repeatedly get it wrong. One sister does say that she wishes she’d got the interpersonal relationships coaching that I did as a kid because it would have made it easier to decode how to relate to the “normal” kids…I can see where she’s coming from, but never have the heart to explain that the way she struggles to relate to “normal” girls is the way I struggle with *everyone*.
My giftedness and my aspieness are different threads of who I am – they often tangle up, and sometimes the giftedness compensates a bit for the aspieness, and sometimes the giftedness makes the aspieness more challenging, and sometimes it’s hard to tell whether I’m struggling because I’m gifted or because I’m aspie.
With nephews and nieces who have Autism and are on the spectrum this post really got me thinking about myself. It’s an important task to take time and reflect upon yourself. We don’t do that often enough, I believe. And this post really made me stop and take a minute to think through my own actions. Metacognition, if you want to call it that. Thank you for writing this post and I hope it helped others as much as it did me, by simply self-analyzing.
I’d like to know more about what can be considered Aspergers in women. I’m a data scientist, never wanted to have kids, in my early 50s, married for over 25 years. Love my career, but tend to get bored and change jobs every 2 years. Always had trouble being friends with other women, most of my friends are men. IQ over 145. Friends are always inviting me to dinners, I’m rarely the initiator but go and enjoy their company.
I feel like a lot of what Penelope says about Aspergers in women fits my profile, but a lot doesn’t. Some differences may be cultural: I grew up in a culture that is about collaboration, where both men and women are way less competitive than in the U.S.
You probably have Aspergers, but you know that.
I think what you’re saying is that in your environment you do not seem so Aspergery. But remember that when you ask yourself about Asperger traits, you are comparing yourself to all women. Don’t compare yourself to men and women just because you are with men all the time. Women will always look less Aspergery than men because women – neurotypical or not — are better at social skills than men are.
I can tell you that the Asperger traits are not cultural – they are at the core of how our brain works. Aspergers a relative thing — it’s women or men being different than neurotypical men or women IN THEIR CULTURE.
Penelope
I agree with most of what you wrote here but you say women with aspergers are terrible mothers because they delusionally rationalize what they want as good for their kids, but delusional rationalization isn’t correlated with aspergers, that’s just you.
Do you think it’s a good idea to tell my 62-year old mom she, like me, has Asperger’s? I told her that I thought I had it, sent her your previous posts about Asperger’s women, and thought she might take the hint- but no such luck. Her doctor boyfriend also thought the idea that I had it was ridiculous, no doubt because he’s used to the Spergy male obsessed-with-trains stereotype and I’m not, “that bad.” It was kind of depressing for me even in my early 30s to realize that my weirdness rose to the level of disorder, so not sure how it’d feel finding out at 62. However, there are a lot of times I want to shake her and say, “Stop acting so annoying or your boyfriend is going to get sick and tired of it and leave you!” He even commented to me yesterday that dating her is like having a child. So anyway, I don’t know what to do, as obviously tact is not my strong suit. Oh, and yes, she’s divorced (from my also-Aspire dad), never re-married, and still works.
Why does the boyfriend choose to be with your mom when he says dating her is like having a child? I wonder about him….
Anyway, dating anyone with Aspergers is like dating a child — a super-smart one. So he should just decide if he likes it or not. I’m not sure getting the boyfriend and mom to understand Aspergers is worth it. I have found it’s easiest to get someone to see Aspergers when they really want something in their life to change and they are having trouble making that change.
Penelope
My advice for Aspie parents, to help your kids not think of you as narcissist.
1. Admit your Aspergers-related parenting flaws and apologize if your kids are upset with you. Will help your kids not feel crazy, help relationship with them. Makes you not narc. This is a huge one. I have one Aspie parent who has done this and one who does not, and I have a great relationship with the former but not the latter.
2. Let them spend time in other environments for perspective (grandparents, camp, boarding schools, friends, relatives, etc.).
3. Read parenting books and get support.
4. Show you love them, go over the top.
5. Have a checklist of questions to ask them every year: their goals, interests, friend groups, any health problems, needs.
6. Don’t ask them to make sacrifices for you because of your autism/stress intolerance. Don’t ask them to help you. Get help elsewhere.
7. Be aware of your duties as a parent at each age (e.g., teach them to drive, back off as they are teens, etc.). Be aware of their developmental needs at each life stage.
8. Give them space from your special interests. Don’t expect them to share them.
9. Keep a normal household for their sake (clean, decorate, cook recipes, normal food)
This is SUCH GREAT advice!
Penelope
When you talk about “comparing yourself to a typical mom” how do you know what a typical mom is- what she says? What she does? I’ve been trying to figure that out for years. I am an INFJ.
But P
no one really likes parenting and actually it is not emotionally satisfying – actually it’s completely thankless and only necessary because of the obligation created once a person has kids. the selfless service begins….
i mean i guess a person could like it for a moment … until it gets difficult again because kids always need different things all the time.
so whatever a person’s cognitive peculiarities – and i do appreciate your sharing your own groups so well that i sometimes feel like one when i am on this site yet i know i’m not because i can manipulate people pretty well tho i’ve given that up because i want to feel real – yes whatever a person’s peculiar mind the real trouble is the lack of information about what parenting actually is these days. we are no longer mere animals popping out pups who just grow but humans who understand that if we have kids we actually have to raise them and their consciousness. that is the killer that no one tells. it’s all just biological motives to make mini mes
Just because you’re ignoring the discussions where parents talk about how raising children is all about supporting the child’s consciousness doesn’t mean *no one* is talking about it. It means you’re a snob.
Also, it’s entirely possible to be selfless before the actual kid comes along. Parenting is definitely a skill that can be learned. Taking care of babies and tiny children, also skills. Society devalues what is traditionally women’s work, but it’s still work!
I love this comment. Thanks, Melissa
Penelope, I feel empty after reading this…numb. Your last article stuck with me because I’m 39, accelerating through the ranks at work, in a male-dominated field, but I don’t have kids. I’m not sure I can have them, I was married and tried and gave up when I realized he was a jerk, then we divorced. Kids play a major role in the discussion here, so I’m not sure if I can assess where I stand since I don’t have them. I cannot imagine staying home with them all day, it sounds terribly, mind-numbingly boring, but I could change my mind if I had my own…who knows?
The men in my life and friends were older than me when I was young, and are now much younger (6-12 years), but I usually have a close friend in my age range. I didn’t experience the normal high school/college fun and going out with friends, and told myself it’s because I was working. The truth is, I just didn’t know how to connect and hooking up with boys in my peer group was not appealing. I’m smart, I excelled in school and thrive at work. I get along well with people; I’m funny, caring and thoughtful, but I’ve realized that it is learned behavior. I often think, ‘I should smile, everyone is smiling,’ or ‘make eye contact, it helps people connect with you and like you more.’ I’ve studied how to be charming and mimicked likable people, but I thought everyone did that. I genuinely like connecting with people in conversation, but I don’t like intimacy.
I’m confused because I suffer from PTSD, depression and mixed mood, and can be codependent, but never once have I even considered, nor has anyone I know, considered I might have Asperger’s. I’ve talked to you before, and you didn’t mention it, so either I’m really good at hiding it, or maybe there are just other women in like me who are different than other women, but with no real explanation as to why.
It’s funny to me that you point out that I didn’t mention it. I try really hard to be certain before I tell someone on the phone that they have Aspergers. I only tell people when it’s totally obvious and — seriously — it’s about 50% of the people I talk to. I think it’s because I’m Aspergery so I attract people like me.
Anyway, it sounds like you could use another coaching session. Because you are stuck, and you’re not even sure you want to get unstuck, and that’s really sad. Of course you should get unstuck. Because your life will start getting really boring. You are having a really hard time imaginging what life would be like if you found someone you love who loves you back. So we can talk about that so that you can be more open to it.
Everyone deserves to feel loved and special and give that to someone else. I know that’s really sappy, but I believe it.
Also, the childhood trauma is probably related to being parented by people who had Aspergers and didn’t know it. So I think this is all probably related. Don’t give up. I know relationships are difficult, but I’m not sure there is a lot that matters in life like relationships do. So we all need to keep trying.
I look forward to talking wtih you again, Kyra.
Penelope
That’s a bunch of personal opinion thrown out. If anyone reaches that bottom on the comment section, don’t get fed up by this BS. Study yourself, it’s much better than taking this opinions as truth.
Hi,
Just want to say that not all Aspie women are bad mother’s. They are also not doing things for their own benefit but their child’s.
For me your words are quite damaging and belittling to all the Aspie mum’s out there who put so much effort in to connecting with their kids.This is a rather complex topic with huge pools of personality traits working within the confines of ASD. An Aspie mum may be lacking in ability to really play with, pretend with or some times even notice they (or anyone else) are in the room trying to get their attention. But we can work on this. Practice it until it becomes something we just do
Well, maybe not the play, but you can get anatomy models or maps of the Universe and engage with them that way. Because ultimately the love you have for them is immutable and so deeply connected, you just might struggle to show it, key word here is struggle, not impossible.
Some women, Aspie or not, may simply feel motherhood isn’t working for them. That happens. It is probably less uncommon than we might think.
I wish you didn’t pigeonhole all women on the spectrum. We share core diagnostic traits but we all have varying abilities, personality, coping mechanisms … essentially we are all unique in so many ways and the same all at once! I go to an ASD women’s meet every month and although we are collectively on varying places on the spectrum, we can all relate. For me it is the only time I can relax and feel understood. Anyway, I hope you can take a look from more perspectives.
J.
Anytime I’ve suggested (in confidence, to anyone who knows me well) that I suspect that I have aspergers, the retort is always some version of “You’re using that as an excuse for behavior.” I also get a lot of “You’re *SO* smart” where it’s more of an accusation than a compliment. So basically, I cannot win, and I pretty much gave up.
I spent 25 years in the same company (male dominated), the last 15 as a programmer, and my last supervisor essentially bullied me out of my job (gaslighting and all sorts of other now-illegal tactics). Now I’m studying to be a music teacher, but group teaching is *really hard* for me.
Been married unsuccessfully twice, no kids, now in my 50s, and my narcissistic mother is becoming more so in her late 70s. Guess there’s nothing to be done about it now, but I wish I could have tried to do something to fix my life back then with this knowledge.
I don’t see it as “pigeonholing” but instead recognizing that people are different and by acknowledging that we can take steps to deal with our different-ness. Instead of being bullied for it.
It doesn’t matter if you are using Aspergers as an excuse to explain your behavior. So what? You are saying the behavior is not going to change.
But the same is true of your mom. She is not a narcissist. She has Aspergers. It’s genetic. You got it from her. And I would guess that you appear to many people to be offensively self-absorbed just like your mom. Neither of you are narcissists; you are not as crafty and intentional as a narcissist. You are oblivious about the offensive behavior you display and your mom is probably oblivious in a similar way.
I think you’d benefit a lot from taking the Aspergers course I created. Here’s a link:
https://www.quistic.com/seminar/best-asperger-hacks
Penelope
>You are saying the behavior is not going to change.
I’m saying that I’m unaware of the behavior (at least in the moment) and therefore unable to make an effective/lasting change. But man oh man how I’d like to change. It’s lonely in this bizarre world of thinking I’m doing the right thing but it turns out I’m really not.
If AB5 (new tax law in CA) hadn’t just ended my job last Monday, I’d totally be into taking the class (or at least saving up for it), but for now it’s out of reach. Thank you for the response though, that was nice :)
I’ve considered the idea that I might have Aspergers for years so I’m not denying it, but there do seem to be a lot of broad generalizations here. With regard to the “women over 40 in the office” it seems that the majority of Mothers in the US is this day and age DO work. I know plenty of people who say that they would go crazy staying home with the kids day in and day out. Also, I’ve seen stay at home moms gradually become depressed into middle age because they slowly lose their independent identity and just become “so and so’s mom” or “so and so’s wife.” You can’t tell me all those people have AS. Also, the current economy makes it extremely difficult for women to stay home.
I’ve also heard it approached from the opposite angle with regards to women who chose to stay home. That being a SAHM while being capable of more is a sign of “underachieving” which can also point to AS. So you could really swing the pendulum in either direction.
With regards to ADHD. I do agree that it’s common for AS women to get an ADHD diagnosis first because doctors don’t know what they’re looking for, but ADHD itself is not on the autism spectrum. There are plenty of people with a diagnosis of ADHD that are no where near autistic. Are they all misdiagnosed?
The whole thing about AS women marrying much older men, maybe there is a CORRELATION but I don’t see how this would point to AS exclusively. Also I likely have AS and have an infant son and am not a “terrible mother.” People have actually commented that I was “born to be mom.”
Statements like “neurotypical women like to meet new people” may apply to the majority, but don’t forget 1/4-1/3 of the neurotypical population are naturally introverted and this includes women. Even your everyday average introverts don’t necessarily thrive on meeting new people.
Again, I’m not trying to deny I have AS but if you go by what’s written in this article you could literally say that half the population does.
Rant over.
I believe this article is a load of garbage. Your anecdotal evidence means nothing…you cite no studies to back up your claims. Aspie women all have some certain similarities…but we’re different enough that to make these claims is ridiculous. I’m 40 and I stay home with my kids because I have never had a job…can’t drive a car…prefer my children to going out into public everyday to deal with people. I’m also a pretty good mom…maybe due to the fact that I’ve obsessively researched what a good mom is and does/doesn’t do.. and what a bad mom does and doesn’t do.
I haven’t been perfect by any means…but surely don’t think I am comparable to a narcissist. Most all of your articles seem to be written to get a reaction…and are filled with false information that you state as fact. I think maybe you were misdiagnosed…and you aren’t an Aspie at all…but a woman with NPD.
There is definitely something wrong with this “author” and it’s not autism. She is probably projecting her own experience on others. Aspies do not make terrible moms. They are often more diligent than NTs and are often not involved in the crazy s*** that NTs are. Also, to say most women over 40 in the workplace are probably autistic is both laughable and offensive at the same time. Some of us enjoy and/or need the financial benefits. In fact, most of us are there for the money, but kudos to you if you happen to be independently wealthy. And btw, if you look for autism in every person hard enough, you’ll find it if you need to badly enough.
What the hell are these false statements and generalisations?
ADHD =/= ASD and also not “on the spectrum”, although it is often seen together.
This misinformation can be actually damaging to people who are looking for answers.
Could you please not diagnose someone on the basis of your own theories and experiences/anecdotal evidence?
Thank you very much.
I am baffled by this entire article, please inform yourself and disclaim that these are your own views and that they are based on…nothing but personal experience of a leek.
What the hell are these false statements and generalisations?
ADHD =/= ASD and also not “on the spectrum”, although it is often seen together.
This misinformation can be actually damaging to people who are looking for answers.
Could you please not diagnose someone on the basis of your own theories and experiences/anecdotal evidence?
Thank you very much.
I am baffled by this entire article, please inform yourself and disclaim that these are your own views and that they are based on…nothing but personal experience of a leek. Jeez.