My first day of marriage counseling
We have been together for fifteen years and we have two kids. We have been in couples therapy enough different times for me to know that I hate being in couples therapy with him because he never changes. It’s always been more productive for me to go to therapy alone, where at least I can get things done. But now we are desperate, so I’ve capitulated.
We park the car and walk into the building of the couples’ therapist. I remember one couples therapist telling us that we are in good shape because we drove there together. Today I know that we would have driven in separate cars if we had two cars.
I delegated finding a therapist to my husband. After all, my first book just came out and I blog almost every day. I am busy. I know my penchant for delegating is part of the problem, but I thought this would be one last hurrah.
We get to the office. The sign on the door says “Divorce Law Offices” and there is a list of people with Esq’s at the end.
I say, “We’re going to a divorce lawyer? I don’t want a divorce.”
“It’s Wisconsin,” he says, “It’s not like New York City where there are skyscrapers devoted to therapist offices.”
We see a mediator.
I start talking. I tell him we are not there to get a divorce. We’re there to keep our marriage together. Is there someone else we can see?
My husband says he’s thinking he might be there to get a divorce.
I see we are a parody of a couple who cannot communicate. When I was doing research for a column about divorce law, I talked with a lot of divorce lawyers, and each one said that so many divorces could be avoided if the people would talk. One attorney told me he helps one couple a month get back together, and that’s his favorite part of his job. I tell myself, based on this, that divorce lawyers are good at keeping marriages together because they see so many marriages fall apart.
We talk about our marriage. I think things are difficult because my husband gave up working to take care of our kids and it didn’t work out.
My husband thinks things got bad because taking care of our son who has autism is extremely difficult and we take it out on each other so we don’t take it out on him.
There is truth to what my husband says. Eighty percent of parents who have a child with autism get a divorce. But I don’t want to blame my failing marriage on my cute little five-year-old. Not that I don’t want someone to blame. I do. But I think it is more complicated than that.
I explain how my career is going great. I tell the mediator I have a busy speaking schedule and a six-figure contract for my next book. I even talk about my blog, and the estimated 450,000 page views a month, even though you can trust me on this: Our divorce mediator from Middleton, Wisconsin does not read blogs.
At this point, I think my husband is going to tell the mediator about how he gave up his career for the kids and me and he is totally disappointed. But instead he says to me, “A lot of people I talk with say that I am being abused by you.”
I am shocked. It’s a big allegation. But I say, “A lot of people I talk with think I should get rid of you.”
That’s as bad as it gets, right there. Because the mediator interjects and says that if you want to try to stay together for the kids, it’s worth it. He says, “The research shows divorce is very hard on kids, and especially kids under five.” But he adds, “You won’t be able to hold things together just to parent the kids. You will need some love for each other.”
I say quickly that I have that. It is easy for me to remember how much fun I had with my husband before we had kids. It’s easy for me to remember that every time I look-but-don’t-really-look for men to have an affair with, I find myself looking at someone who is like my husband: I still love him.
My husband is not so quick to say he still loves me.
So all I can do is think while he thinks. I think about the research about how a career does not make people happy. When you are in love and someone asks you how you are, you say, “I’m so happy” even if you are unemployed. When your career is going well and your marriage isn’t when someone asks you how you are you say, “My career is going great.”
The mediator starts talking about how the next step will be a contract to follow rules of engagement. “You have to start being nice to each other,” says the mediator. Right now that seems almost impossible.
We have to wait, though. My husband is deciding if he has any love for me.
He asks the mediator, “How do I know if it’s love?”
The mediator says, “If you care about her life, for right now, that’s enough.”
Finally my husband says to me, “I’m so sorry that life is not better for you when your career is going so well. You’ve worked so hard for this.”
The mediator nods. Next meeting we will move on to the rules of engagement.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Other posts on this topic:
- My own marriage and the myth of the stay-at-home dad
- My 9/11 day. My husband. The meaning of my to-do list.
- 5 Communication lessons learned in marriage counseling
Penelope commented: “People should look thrhough the string and notice that the men are the ones worried that I have not asked permission from my husband. Newsflash: Men, women talk about you to their friends all the time. It's how women are. Men talk about sports and women talk about their marriages. And they don't ask permission first.”
I’m not sure this is the same thing. It’s one thing to discuss something with a close friend. It’s quite another thing to post it on the electronic version of a billboard, for any and all who pass by to see. If, as you say, he doesn’t have any problems with you writing about this, then more power to you. However, my advice, worth everything you paid for it, is to verify that this topic is still ok with him. If he has any reservations, then I think you owe it to him to more circumspect.
“But I would not have married someone who cares because writing about my life is too important to me. In fact, seeing the uproar on the blog makes me think it's great that I found someone who doesn't care what I write about him. Makes me more determined to keep the marriage together. So thank you for that.”
Relationships fall apart because people change and the relationship fails to change with them. It wouldn’t hurt to make sure that his opinion hasn’t changed, would it? If it doesn’t bother him, then great! If it does, then maybe you’ve found a starting point for a long discussion about what you both want and need from each other?
Again, good wishes for the best possible outcome for all 3 of you.
Hey,
If you want to see what people’s opinions of your post in a straightforward manner that’s simply an objective discussion… Go read the reddit comments:
http://reddit.com/info/242vw/comments
Wait a second, please. I’m both a woman AND a writer, and I *don’t* go public (or even talk to friends) about what my husband has been saying in marriage counselling. I write about it tons, sure, (I have to. I’m a WRITER) but that writing is just for me. And while I do blog about my own feelings sometimes, my thoughts and words are my own — just as my husband’s feelings and words are *his* own (he owns the copyright to them, if you will)
I also have a vested interest of my own here. I want to stay married, so I really need to hear what my husband is thinking and feeling; sharing will be hard for him to do if nothing is off-record, nothing can be spoken as “rough draft” or “in-process” thought, and everything is, instead, considered final copy and copyright-free, not to mention subject to my own choice of re-contextualization and public resyndication.
I can expose myself in public if I want to, that’s certainly my right, but breaking my husband’s confidentiality amounts, (to continue the writing analogy) to a kind of plagiarism. Moreover, it’s also against the advice of only about a thousand marital advice books!
Just, please, ASK him. If he really doesn’t care, your assumptions are correct and there’s no problem, and asking won’t change anything. So why not ask?
God speed. Marriage (and marriage with kids) is hard, hard, hard.
Voyuer: The only thing worse than growing up in a single-parent home is growing up in two single-parent homes. Speaking from experience, forcing kids to split their time between two parents and two houses will make them absolutely hate you for it.
Thanks for your signature coming clean. If people don’t want to read this (or any other) post, fine. It’s simple to exit and turn to another blog, etc. they hardly need to leave a comment. You did not ask for advice so i don’t know why readers are giving it. And when they do give it, the advice usually appears to be about them, not you.
In such situations, when i find myself at odds with folks i’m communicating with, i try to keep in mind that opinions are freely chosen or formed and opinions don’t necessarily address me or what i am talking about.
take good care.
"People should look thrhough the string and notice that the men are the ones worried that I have not asked permission from my husband. Newsflash: Men, women talk about you to their friends all the time. It's how women are. Men talk about sports and women talk about their marriages. And they don't ask permission first."
Ladies and gentlemen, Mrs. Trunk is a misandrist. First, this is a load of crap. You might be able to qualify it to say “It’s how women WHO ARE PINING FOR A DIVORCE are.” Second, please don’t insult our intelligence. It’s pretty obvious there’s no comparison between “talking” and broadcasting on the Internet. Duh!
“If he cared, he would not have married me becuse I did it through our whole courtship.”
That’s fascinating! I did not realize we had a World Wide Web with blogs 15 years ago! Evidently you are equating “writing” with “blogging.” Wait! How could YOU of all people be doing that! Mrs. Use-The-Special-Power-Of-The-Internet-To-Build-A-Satisfying-Career.
Penelope,
I had to chime in. I was married for many years. Things really shifted when my son was born. felt like a single mom when I was still married.
Still, it’s much more difficult to get over than I imagined. It took a good 3 years. Life gets so complicated – keeping track of all the grandparents and schedules.
I could’ve forgotten what marriage was like but I miss it. Someone to witness life with. Share a household. Share our son’s life. If that’s all it was it’s not what I dreamed, but it doesn’t look so bad now.
Divorce can make life much more difficult, not easier. When you have kids especially.
Being a parent and a spouse requires so much self-sacrifice to really work.
I wish I’d signed up for Landmark Education. It’s done more for me more than marriage therapy did. Really, none of them gave me ANY hope at all.
I hope you can put more of the passion you have for writing into your marriage. From your telling I’m more concerned about him loving you than the other way around. Love can be re-learned and unearthed.
Knowing something by watching is entirely different than living something. Your husband probably had no idea what it might really feel like to be married and the sacrifices and forgiveness necessary.
I hope I read one day about how you pulled through and you’re still married. And how you are mostly, if not entirely, happy.
-Janet
Something someone said above hit home about your child and what’s in store for him in the future. The web is forever… you put this out there, you can’t take it back (thank you archive.org).
Yes, you feel the need to tell the world all the intimate details of your marriage problems. Yes, you say he doesn’t care that you tell the world all these intimate details.
But how about your son? Is this fair to him? When he’s 12 years old how is he going to feel if/when he stumbles into you two berating each other in public (for thats how it reads)? How is your son going to feel knowing anyone can read what Mom candidly thinks of Daddy, or that she ponders having an affair (but not really)? How about his friends? Hopefully he won’t get teased mercilessly about it.
The more I look at this original post and the subsequent messages, the more it all leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I don’t know if I’m ever going to read this site with the same enthusiasm as I have in the past.
Because you were writing a thesis about your sex life fifteen years ago, your husband doesn’t need to be asked whether he’d mind your blogging details of your marital counseling to the world? If your husband did feel uncomfortable about your telling the world what went on in your marriage counseling, that would constitute his not supporting your writing?
Because my wife supports me as an artist, does that mean I wouldn’t need to ask her if I can post nude drawings of her online? Drawings that were done when she didn’t know I was drawing her, like when she was on the toilet or sleeping? After all, I was drawing pictures when we first met…
I also find troubling your mentioning in your original post how you “delegate” to your husband. One doesn’t delegate to an equal partner; one delegates to a subordinate.
And I still don’t understand why any of this is relevant to a blog about careers. Yes, there is a balance between work and family, and the fact that you’re having problems may very well be relevant. So tell people that you’re having problems. That doesn’t mean you need to spout the details of what was said during counseling.
If this were a blog specifically about your love life or your marriage, maybe it’d be appropriate. But it’s a self-promotional tool whose primary goal is to sell books and further your career. Maybe some aspects of your life shouldn’t be used to that end.
Finally, I’m struck with all of this in light of just the other day, when I was watching a great speech you were giving to the Rotary Club. You were expounding on your central theme — that young people of today, whom you implicitly represent, aren’t interested in sacrificing their families and their relationships for their careers.
Really?
Brazen careerist, indeed.
Lots of comments, so here’s one more – you are doing what you need to do. He’s doing what he needs to do. That’s all any of us are capable of.
At one point in your life, those needs intersected, and now they don’t and you have to deal with that.
Which is why I’m not going to applaud your honesty any more than I would applaud a bird for flying away from a predator. I don’t think you’re doing this for us or to pump you your rankings like the one ignoramus said.
I think this blog is and always has been the best coping mechanism you have, as it has been throughout your career and family life and you desperately need to write this down, get it out of you and on silicon and show it to the world because that’s who you are.
All of this, the commenting and the snottiness and the great big huggy-wuggies are what you need to deal with this, not in spite of the amateur psychiatrists and outraged NO MA’AMers chipping in but because of them.
My own circumstances are not dissimilar to yours, only I am the stay-at-home-hubby and she’s the one who travels. I love her dearly and want her to be happy, but I am becoming less and less so, not specifically that she is gone (the families with soldiers overseas are 10,000 steps ahead of me in the right-to-be-POed line) but that her coming home seems to be only long enough to sleep, eat and leave again.
So I am thinking that maybe the thing that makes her want to go away so much is me and it would be better for me to get out of her way and get started on that life of crappy apartments, Lean Cuisines, cruising church groups and George Jones on the jukebox.
If I wanted that. Which I don’t. What I want is to love her, and and make a life work with her, and ugliness is part of being a grownup. I once read that so many tell themselves that if they just work through the next roadblock, then life can start, and too late most people learn that working through those roadblocks is their life. So I want to work through what’s going on, because when I made my vow in a church I said forever and I meant it.
Maybe he feels the same way. Maybe you do too. Or not. At any rate, the key to effective blogging seems to be having an interesting life filled with things worth writing down, which you have in spades and which is why I read blogs instead of writing them.
Best of luck to both of you, wherever you wind up going. In the end you will be what you are no matter what, and it may not seem like it now but you are doing the world a great service in honoring that.
To be honest, I’ve done really montonous jobs, and the fact that your hubby is doing it for such a long time must be soul destroying. Then, to have a life invested in a special needs child all the time must be grating and frustrating. Can’t you two get child care so that he can get a job that is consistent with his intellectual needs?
Really, if you were in his situation, what would you do? You’re always going on about doing the best for oneself, despite the odds. So, in this case, his ‘best for self’ might be to get a job commensurate with his abilities, afford to spring for child care and just be happy. At the end of it, it’s all anyone wants.
Oh, re the whole staying together for the kids thing (to all the other posters). As a child who grew up in an unhappy marriage, my parents should have divorced 15 years before they actually did.
Oh, wow. I’m really, really sorry about your family situation.
All I have to offer are things I learned purely from my own experience and thus which are not applicable to anybody else; here they are in case any of them is at all useful.
My first marriage ended in divorce; now I’m in a happy long-term marriage to husband #2. Caveats: fwiw, YMMV, caveat emptor, results not guaranteed, contents may have settled during transit, etc.:
– every human interaction involves power dynamics, whether you want it to or not.
– people have unconscious scripts for their marriages. Everybody has them, most people just can’t identify or articulate them well.
– people do change, but not always for the better, and not always in sync with their partner.
– two people can be a great fit in one phase of their lives and a bad fit in another.
– cutting back on careers doesn’t necessarily improve the marriage. A spouse’s job demands are often just convenient to complain about. Symptoms, not root causes.
– be esp wary of those people who believe that women’s careers are the cause of marital problems or children’s problems.
– All relationships require a certain amount of denial. Unhappy relationships require a lot more of it.
– when you’ve lived neck deep in a hole for long enough, it’s hard to truly see/feel/imagine what possibilities life might have, if you weren’t living neck deep in that hole.
– there’s a difference between a marriage that’s going through some problems and a marriage that’s permanently problematic.
– divorce is like surgery: hurts like hell, takes longer to heal than expected, leaves a scar, but if the patient is future focused and takes care of themselves, they generally recover. A troubled marriage is like a chronically painful medical condition: sometimes it hurts more, sometimes it hurts less, on a few rare occasions it doesn’t hurt at all.
– after divorce, one positive: the enormous relief to finally be out from under the emotional burden. Out of the rut; longer responsible for the apparently endless task of trying to make that other person happy.
– yeah, divorce is hard on kids. But it’s also hard on kids to have them grow up with a daily example of a conflicted marriage, and with parents/adults who seem powerless to change their own most personal relationship dynamic.
– just because somebody fails at marriage once doesn’t mean that they’re inherently flawed as a spouse and incapable of having a happy marriage with somebody else.
No amount of therapy is going to work. Relationships are like milk, once it spoils, it’ll never be good again. You can try and turn it into yogurt, but it’s just not the same.
Penelope,
Both my wife and I have been reading your blog now for about 2 months. We were both touched by the sharing you did yesterday about the troubles that you and your husband are having. Your honesty, and open sharing are having an impact on us. We are both in counciling now for our marriage and wish you and your husband the best. It’s worth it! I think that we all get better when we work through things rather than cut the cords and run…into another relationship where the same issues will come up. At some point we all have to stop and confront the reasons/problems that we face in our relationships or we’re doomed to them haunting us forever.
Penelope – I didn’t think I would be commenting today, but this post really touched me. I have been divorced and been through the rounds of therapy to try and save that first marriage. Here in my second marriage, my husband is a SAHD while I work (in software, too, BTW).
This post is very appropriate in that work/life balance many of us are struggling with. I read the links that describe your husband’s experience working at nights, and again, that hits a chord with us. My husband gets a lot of negative comments from jerks, and internally he struggles with shame.
Who can judge a marriage just from one post? In my experience, marriages are many-layered, complicated situations. Re the comments left for this post: just take what you like and leave the rest. None of us really know the whole situation.
I thank you for your honesty and this post.
If I could give you a hug right now I would. I’ll say a prayer for you, your family and your marriage.
It took a lot of courage to share this story, I have similar difficulity in my marriage, our son is 18 and has autism.We love him to death but the 2 of us have grown apart. I did not know the stat’s are over 80% fail rate, so sad.
Marriage is the most illogical insititution ever. People rush to get married without thinking…because everyone in the herd is doing it…it’s something that has to be done…Like being born and dying? Maybe it’s just me in the whole world, but I fail to see the point!
Sorry, this doesn’t have anything to do with penelope, just got me thinking on a tangent. Interesting blog, very candid and engaging.
How does your husband feel about this post? How do _you_ feel about this post – do you have any misgivings at all?
I tend to agree with Mike and my advice would be to take this offline. I think it can be incredibly undermining for a relationship and demoralising for the other half in a couple to have the problems of the relationship discussed publicly. You are the author of a book as well as a high-profile blogger so this is far from anonymous. In terms of the exposure and potential hurt, it’s also quite a different ball game from a Masters thesis.
Even if he was okay with what you wrote a long time ago, people change and they are allowed to feel differently later in life. It was in a less public forum and it was also back when times were good.
There is a very public divorce case in the UK right now involving a high profile columnist who wrote her column for years about her lazy, good-for-nothing husband. I know that you have not said anything near so cruel but your husband is likely to be feeling quite sensitive right now and this post is more likely to hurt than help the situation.
Yes, I do agree that the reality of marriage should be discussed more. But I think it needs a bit of distance – either by talking in the abstract or under the cloak of anonymity, or by talking candidly but later, when the relationship has already recovered or ended. I would suggest waiting until you are out of the woods before you write about this.
Obviously it’s your choice but I think something that could save many relationships is greater kindness and respect.
However you choose to handle this, I really hope it works out for the both of you.
Voyeur said: “I have a hard time understanding why divorce is so hard on children under the age of 5. You can barely understand or even remember anything at that age – you haven't been out of the uterus that long. I'd find easier to accept that older children, even teens, have a difficult time with divorce than people two feet tall.”
What an extraordinary statement!
I would never say that people should stay together merely “for the sake of the children” and I have some sympathy for the argument that it’s better for everyone in the long run not to have an unhappy relationship. However, it does not automatically follow that children under the age of five don’t have a difficult time with divorce.
You might not understand _why_ children under the age of five have a hard time with divorce, but the fact is, they do. When my parents split up when I was four, I spent the next six months having temper tantrums and biting other children. I’m over it now and like to think I’m a fairly well adjusted, happy adult, but it wasn’t without angst at the time.
Children understand more than you think. I remember lots of things from when I was three, four and five years old quite vividly. That’s not true for everyone, but I’m sure I’m not alone. But it’s not really about understanding and brainpower. All the child knows is that one of their much-loved parents is no longer there, living with them. It’s about emotion and, actually, the fact that they don’t _understand_ what’s happening only makes it worse.
As others have pointed out, they then have the hassle throughout life of negotiating and dividing their time and belongings between two different households. It’s manageable but it’s a pain in the neck.
Chad said, “No amount of therapy is going to work. Relationships are like milk, once it spoils, it'll never be good again. You can try and turn it into yogurt, but it's just not the same.”
I think that’s a bit harsh. Actually, it’s my belief that every relationship has a natural rhythm and you need to ride out the lows and enjoy the highs. If something happens, like a betrayal, that can sour the relationship permanently (though some manage to make yogurt), but the normal ups and downs of a relationship are perfectly natural and worth the ride.
PT wrote: You are just going to have to trust me that my husband could care less what I write here. If he cared, he would not have married me becuse I did it through our whole courtship.
How can we trust you when you don’t have a clue what’s going on in your marriage? Your husband has one foot inside of divorce’s doorstep and all you can do is nostalgically pine away for his acceptance during your *courtship*. OMG. Unbelievable. Perhaps he thought a master’s thesis would end when one gets a degree, not go on for the whole lifetime, nor be published in a public forum (as if any of his friends, co-workers read your thesis) — Ask him. Don’t assume.
And commiserating to your friends over tea and crumpets is not the same level of ‘public’ as putting it all out on this here blog. Those in the comments who are cheerleading you along, are in effect, rubbernecking — they want to see some good drama (whichever it goes), so of course they want you to keep posting.
I’m astounded by what must be either naivete or out-and-out narcissism. Your husband is a person too: perhaps you all should get a caretaker for your kid so that your husband can go fulfill some of his own dreams and not just defer to yours.
(sorry if it hurts, a chat with girlfriends would be less hurtful than a stranger’s jabs.)
Seriously…not to pile on or anything, but it sounds like your husband is not the only one who “never changes”. You’re still doing what you did 15 – or whatever – years ago, right? Seems to me that you both need to let go of who you *where* when you met and introduce yourselves to who you are *now*.
Thanks for this post. It was a little more personal than I expected from a blog called the “Brazen Careerist.” Though I am sorry to hear that you and your husband are having marital issues, I found your post comforting in that you are not alone.
My wife and I went to couples Counseling once. I agreed with the counselor about how we treat each other and handle conflict. My wife thought it was a total waste of time. One of the things I subscribe to when dealing with my wife and with others is to acknowledge that they mature and change regardless of whether I disagree with them or not. I love my wife because we don’t always see eye-to-eye on stuff and that we both compromise to reach the a conclusion that we both can live with.
Yes, there are times we both want out AND Yes, we stay together for the sake of the kids BUT Yes, we still love each other and accept the positive ways we’ve grown individually and changed.
While I really appreciate the candor in this post I have to agree with Greg L. and the others who have observed that it is clear that you are emotionally abusive towards your husband. The passive aggressiveness is also laid out bare for the world to see. I think you have to know these things because you’ve gone to so much trouble to lay them out. It would be one thing if you were in a D/s relationship where your husband enjoyed this sort of humiliation and power trip, but from the post it seems he is not really into that, it seems he was honestly trying to help you and your children by taking care of the children while you worked on your career and he was not intending for this to be turning over all power in the relationship to one person.
One additional note, it’s unfair IMO to be blaming your autistic son for the problems in your marriage. Your son is not the source of troubles in your marriage and it is terribly unfair, selfish and abusive towards him to be pining blame on him.
Penelope,
After being away for the last half of last week I returned to see this post. I understand your situation.
Life is though thing but even more so when there is so much demand for our time and our attention. Having a good career, a good marriage, and raising children (let alone one with special needs) is about the toughest thing a person can do and places tremendous strain on a person.
To the commenter just prior to me who is so quick to beat you up for mentioning your son as a potential source of the trouble – children with Autism require A LOT of work and attention in order to achieve developmental progress. I don't think you literally mean to hold it against your son but rather the demands his needs place on the marriage.
People who have never been married, had kids, or had to care for an autistic child have no right to criticize your actions or thoughts.
As far as those so eager to criticize your candor – I think it is fantastic. I actually just had a conversation with my mother-in-law this weekend about her generation grew up in an environment where they were told to not talk about certain things. She also told me about how impressed she was that my wife (her daughter) and I can have such open and frank conversations. She also thanked us for teaching her that it is ok to speak your mind and to not give a damn about what other people think of you.
So I think your openness is a good thing for you, your family, and the readers of this blog. It allows you to unload. It gives your readers insight into your humanity and maybe even allow them to relate to you on a new level. It lets readers unload advice in the form of comments (good and bad).
I won't offer any advice as I am currently dealing with slightly similar situation (though sometimes is comforting to know you're not alone). I wish you and your family all the best.
Fight the good fight and fight hard.
Whoa, Dave! I find nothing in the post that says "Hubby and I would have a great marriage right now if not for – "
A special need child is tremendously difficult. There is no break. You can not hire the teenager across the street to sit for a couple hours. There can be issues with travel and vacations. Other parents do not want to be involved; their kids do not want to be involved. Oh, and task continues until..?
oh my gosh, Penelope I am so so very very sorry. You deserve compassion not a bunch of dumbass advice that may or may not work. Everyone, every marriage is different.
I am so sorry though.
I have been through a divorce, btw, for what it’s worth.
10 years ago.
Anyway, I am so very sorry and your family (and you two) will be in my prayers.
Hi Penelope …
Well, as pretty much everyone here has said, I admire your (and also your husband’s) courage to be so openly honest about going to a marriage counselor. I don’t have any advice .. to the contrary, I guess I maybe need some _good_ advice.
Marriage definitely is hard. I am from South-east Asia, and I was raised in a culture where splitting up was not an option. But as I have had to change several aspects of mental models over time, maybe this aspect would change too … My wife and I have never been able to spend much time together, procastinating a life together so we could work on our careers. However, contrary to most stereotypical scenarios, I _did_ try to change my career in a way that enable us to start building a married life together, since my wife’s career options were more inflexible. I had to compromise my career with the hope that a better family life would be more than worth the compromise. However, that did not work as I expected, and so I decided to focus on my career after that. We have not split up really, but I have all but given up.
My present workplace encourages long-term professional development and mentorship, and a mentor of mine suggested I think really hard about my personal life plans before making up my mind about some of my professional plans. That got me thinking about a few things:
First, I realized that focusing on my career gives me a sense of security, control and being appreciated that I do not/did not get from my marital life. It also gives me a slight pang of guilt, and I sometimes worry if I am doing the right thing. Is my “extra-marital affair” with my professional life okay? I know that if I were not married, or if I did not have this problem with my married life, I would not place so much value on my professional life and its achievements. What do you think ..??
Secondly, I have not discussed any of this yet with anyone at my workplace. I am good at what I do, I maintain a good demeanor irrespective of my marital situation, and when asked about my plans of getting together with my wife, I tell people that we should be able to do that in about a year or so. Is it advisable to discuss marital problems at work? I have always felt that it’s not. What have you seen in this regard …??
Anyways, once again – all the best with your counseling.
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This is a good question, and I hate to tell you that it depends on the circumstance, but it does. I have to talk about marital problems here because I rant all the time about how people need to have careers encourage keeping their families together. It would be totally inauthentic of me to not admit I’m having trouble. If I blogged about new programming languages or something like that, I wouldn’t write about my marriage.
At work, a good rule of thumb is to be yourself but don’t be annoying. It’s a fine line for all of us. Even those of us who think we are not in the least bit annoying, because of course, we all are. You also need to make sure that if things are falling apart at home so much that things are falling apart at work that you tell your boss. You want to make sure people understand there is a significant cause for you falling apart and that you are not falling apart becuase, for example, you don’t care.
Good luck!
Penelope
Penelope, count me as one of the many who are grateful for your brave honesty in blogging about your marriage counseling.
I hope you guys rediscover–or are able to replant–some of the love once there.
Divorce is tough on adults, too, although today there is a backlash feeling that we should somehow only consider the kids.
It is not fun having a single parent, maybe, but it’s often not fun being one, either.
Your lives sound tough already. Even if you eventually split up, you’ll still be connected through the kids…pretty much forever. Please find ways to be kind, maybe even a little generous, to each other. And best wishes!
Hey Penelope,
Just to add my comments to the blog…
I still believe keeping the details of the marriage problems to yourselves would be best at least until some positive progress is made or if the other way, no bashing of the other. One of the topics of the next counselling session should be how does your husband feel about the discussions of his unemployment, marriage problems, etc. on line for all to see. Many times a counselling session will bring out what someone really feels. Many times men will say things are ok with them, but they really are not. It may not bother them so much, each individual event, but the little events add up. I would check with him again and ask for an honest answer with the counselor present, not alone at home where you may be accustomed to holding back. Did he ever tell you in private before the counseling session that people think you abuse him? Did you ever tell him in private before that people told you you should leave him? These things often don’t come out until a mediator/counselor is present.
Men don’t like their wives talking about their problems with others outside of the family. Saying men talk about sports, women about their marriages does not make things equal. Some marriage counselors will tell you that complaining about one’s marriage to others (not professionals) is a form of unfaithfulness. My experience from observing and listening to men and women alike is that complaining to others outside the marriage does not bring the couple closer but tends to alienate more.
I think it would be interesting for your husband to write a guest article on your next blog to give his perspectives on what is going on. Maybe he prefers not, but all we know is what you write about how he feels, nothing directly from the source. A lot of problems in marriages come from believing you know what the other thinks / wants / needs. After many years we fall into traps of just letting things progress on their own without realizing we are changing. Too many assumptions about the other. Unless your husband is a saint, he is probably like many other good men: he needs respect and he probably needs to get away from home to work so he can feel good about himself. The world around us does not respect men who stay at home. It’s unfortunate, but true. Women who say “what a great dad” to the man will often say behind his back “look how hard the wife needs to work to support her family.” “he must be lazy or a deadbeat.”
As another poster said: Get some professional care for your son and let your husband find a job away from home. Try to identify when the problems started in your marriage. Was it when you both decided to find alternate careers? Was it sooner? Kids are not the marriage. You take on the responsibility of caring for them when you decided to have them. But kids are a part of the family. A child centered marriage will begin to crumble if the husband and wife don’t fix their relationship problems first. Somehow it seems that if both spouses are happy with each other then most of the time the kids seem to be taken care of and are happy also.
Hey I just wanted to wish you all the best through these tough times. My thoughts are with you. Regards.
Good luck, Penelope. It sounds like a very stressful situation for both you and your husband, and I hope you both are able to care for yourselves and your son, and ultimately, for each other and your family as a whole.
Dear Penelope,
Thank you so much for your honesty and candor. You are great at giving voice to the human struggle. I’m 25 and started reading your column mostly for the (great) career advice. I really appreciate your personal columns about your children and marriage as well, because they are very human and relatable. I struggle with feeling lonely, down and, stressed from being unemployed for 9 months and counting. Are problems may be quite different, but to discuss them and address them is probably the best choice. To see someone as successful as yourself discuss their personal situations, has helped me see that my problems are more universal than I make them out to be.
Thanks again. Best wishes.
I have to echo Mike Berry – this is a time when you should also be respectful of your husband and keep these sessions confidential. Brushing it off with a “he knew what he was getting into” shows a lack of respect.
As another comment already pointed out, you showed your judgment at the start of your post with “He never changes.” Maybe he just never changes into what you want him to be.
You also mentioned you delegated finding a counselor because you were too busy with work – another red light because it shows your priorities in this situation. You then belittle his choice of mediator a proof that you should never delegate – a further dismissal of him and his role in your marriage.
I read your blog for its excellent career advice but I don’t want to partake in someone else’s private life, especially such a one-sided view of it. This post seriously makes me consider whether I will continue reading.
You should add “marriage” to your list of Categories in the right-hand nav. It’s telling that you have parenting in there and not marriage, though you write about marriage often
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Genius comment. Thanks. It is true that the categories are so revealing about how I am doing my life. You’ll know I’ve made progress when I’ve made category changes :)
–Penelope
I’ve been reading your column/blog for years now – I feel like I’ve been through both your pregnancies with you. But I’ve not been touched like I was by your column about Marriage Counseling.
We also have autisim in the family. My stepson has Aspergers with the addition of bipolar. Stepdaughter is PDD-NOS with strong bipolar. Hubby is bipolar with Aspergery tendencies.
The stress broke up hubby’s 1st marriage. Has certainly tested ours. Hubby also tried to be the at-home caretaker. In our case, having him as caretaker didn’t work well, as he can’t provide the structure needed. He’s still at home with the kids (now 24 & 20). Son is in a work-transition program. Daughter just moved in (her independent life was not working out) and will be getting her GED and then going to beauty school – she loves creative hair coloring.
It sounds like your hubby is also an artistic soul. Maybe being the at-home parent isn’t a good fit for him or else he needs help. If your son has full-blown autism, hubby can’t care for him, the other kid and the house. It’s too much.
Look into respite care, housekeeping care. You live in a college town, right? Make friends with someone in whatever dept has social work classes – you may get some referrals for programs or even just someone who can give him an occasional break.
Thank you for sharing this part of your life. I understand that it may make others uncomfortable, but as you said, it’s all part of balancing career and life.
My comment is more about privacy than about your “situation.”
How do you feel sharing such details (that many [most?]) people will consider private on the blog?
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Check out my responses to comments above. I wrote a little treatise on this topic within the comments section.
–Penelope
Naked blogging at its finest. I admired you before I read this and now I am in awe.
Best of luck to you in navigating this treacherous territory.
I saw this post on reddit, and that was the first I’d heard of your blog. Now I’m reading it every day because I want to find out what happens with your husband!! I realize that some of these commenters are correct that keeping this private may be better for your marriage. But now we are all invested and I for one will be honest about my shameless desire for gossip! Besides, I am a romantic and I really want to see this work out.
I am in a very happy relationship right now, and I couldn’t imagine a better life-teammate than my boyfriend. But I know that at some point my “perfect” relationship will start running into problems. I worry about how I will handle these things, especially since I can barely think of any examples of long-term marriages that I’d want to emulate. Also, I know that I’m somewhat selfish, impatient, and unwilling to compromise (gen-Y traits?) In today’s world it’s so easy to do whatever we want all the time, it’s almost amazing that people still get married at all.
Anyway I’m rooting for you and I really want to see some frequent updates on the blog! :)
This was a troubling post for me to read. I have admired how you integrate stories about your inevitably imperfect life into your career stuff. It isn’t pat and prepackaged, and it is gutsy. Life and work do intertwine, and you face up to the conflicts between them better than anyone else I read.
At the same time, maybe because your openness invites people to develop a sense of investment in your life, I cringed when I read this post. It feels like an overconfident and distracted Casey Jones heading at overspeed around the curve and right into a huge train wreck.
I would urge you to revisit with your husband whether he still has no qualms about having his life recounted through your eyes. Marriage is a process, not a fixed contract, and what worked for him fifteen years ago might not work today. As a male, I would have been a lot more comfortable at age 25 having my sexual prowess captured in an academic thesis than I would be at 40 having my career and marriage failures exposed to an audience of hundreds of thousands. I’m not your husband, and I know I don’t know how he feels, but there are some markers here that maybe you need to be extra careful not to assume you know how he feels today.
Best of luck to you and your husband both. I sincerely hope you work through this and things go brilliantly.
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Believe me, it wasn’t his sexual prowess. But it’s interesting that you’d assume that.
-Penelope
I actually had a conversation with my husband about this topic today and he agreed that this is and can be a public topic. Every marriage has troubles and every couple can benefit from your experience. If your husband knew what he was getting into when he married you, then this topic is fair game.
P.S. Thanks for the submission to the carnival
Penelope,
My sense is that you have a hard time with compromise. I can empathize because compromise to me often feels like failure.
I have had to look at it as developing a plan for a win-win experience for both people. I admire your writing and your blog and appreciate that you are sharing this difficult situation with total strangers.
Good luck!
I appreciate that you are willing to show the public that you have problems like the rest of us. I appreciate your honesty, but honesty and total disclosure aren’t synonymous. I agree with an earlier poster that mediation is a private process and that needs to be respected. Even if your husband doesn’t care what you put on the blog, how can you be sure that his apathy isn’t a symptom of something else and not just a stance in and of itself?
Moreover, when and if your husband decides to go back to work, what effect will your blog have on his professional life? How will he be judged for your words? You don’t have to gag yourself
but sharing details of what occurs in a private session is unfair and disrepectful to the process and your relationship. It can also provide fodder for “haters” to use against you as you grow in popularity. Practicing discretion now on your way up can save you a lot of trouble later on.
I have been married for 7 years with 3 kids and it has been really challenging. At the same time, in order for my marriage to work I have had to really face and change my own ideas/ fantasies about what relationships should be and how they should work and what all that means. I have learned that commitment, respect, patience and communication really help alot. Also accepting my partner as is. Realize that the stuff that bothers me most about him is really a projection of what bothers me about myself. Also, that marriage is a continual work in progress.
All that said I hope things can work out for you and hubby.
I like your therapy doc. I tell people that it’s like finding an AA meeting you’ll like. You have to keep trying us until you get the right one (one that knows what he/she is doing). Good luck.
Penelope,
As always, your honesty and willingness to share your life are amazing.
You already know that I and your other friends are here to support you whenever you need it. The only wisdom I can provide is this:
You just go on. No matter how helpless or frustrated you may feel, no matter how much you rage or despair, the days will pass one by one. And at the end, you will still need to endure. And hopefully win.
“Believe me, it wasn't his sexual prowess. But it's interesting that you'd assume that.”
You wrote this:
“[W]hen my husband met me I was writing my master's thesis about my sex life. In real time.”
Given that you were writing about your sex life, which seemed to require his waiving any privacy interests on intimate issues, and since the relationship progressed, I did blithely assume he got good reviews.
I stand corrected. I’m not seeing how it moves your marriage counseling forward to make it clear to your blog readership that my positive assumptions were way off base, but it’s really not my concern. In retrospect, I should never have written anything.
It’s your life. I will butt out. Best of luck to both of you.
Penelope,
If you really want to save your marriage, then listen to the “oldguy” (along with many others). No husband can tolerate this continued public emasculation.
If this is a career move, then you don’t need any advice. You are playing this perfectly. When he finally gets the guts to pull the trigger (nobody goes to mediation on accident), you are going to have an enormous amount of new material to write about.
Some things are better kept to yourself.
He should wait a while so you can become more successful and he can get more child support!