Zero tolerance for domestic violence is wrong
It’s been four days since I documented my own domestic violence, in almost real-time, between me and the Farmer. The most common response I’ve heard is some variation of: “Zero tolerance for domestic abuse!”
And you know what? I have zero tolerance for things I am not prone to tolerate as well. That’s easy, isn’t it?
It’s much harder to see the issue from the person’s perspective who has the issue.
I’ve spent days reading the 500 comments on my blog and the comments about my situation on other blogs, and I’m absolutely shocked by the collective hatred and disdain for women who are in violent relationships.
Here’s what someone said on my blog: “Victims of domestic abuse suck at pressing charges.”
Yes. It’s true. Women don’t like to press charges. Because they love the guy. You, maybe, are unable to fall in love with a guy who is violent. Good for you. But do you have to hate women who aren’t like you?
For some reason, people feel it is honorable to rip a woman to shreds if she is living with domestic violence. Here’s an example from the comments section on James Altucher’s blog:
“[Penelope Trunk is] out of her mind to think that her children are not being abused. She, in fact, is as guilty of that abuse as the farmer that beats her.”
The high-and-mightiness that emanates from the public discussion of domestic violence is breathtaking. Everyone is an expert. Everyone knows what’s right.
Here’s an example from the comments section on Jezebel, a supposedly feminist community that is full of anger towards women who live in violent households.
“No one gets another chance to hit me. I don’t care that I have the training to fight back.
“One incident, and YOU LEAVE. Violent people don’t get better without a lot of work, and it’s not *your* problem. Once someone raises a hand to you, you owe that person *nothing.* It’s likely that the violent behavior will escalate. Sometimes it is deliberate. Either way, YOU LEAVE.”
This person sees everything very clearly. If there’s abuse, you leave. Even if it’s small. Because all small abuse gets huge.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that if the guy hits you twice, the kids are better off living in a single-parent home and hearing their dad called an abuser. What people do say is that the odds are it won’t stop. The odds are it will get worse. The odds are, the kids will be worse off, in the end, having lived with the dad.
But the truth is that we do not believe that men who leave two, visible marks on their wife should lose their kids.
You know how I know we don’t believe this? Because if Child Protective Services sees two bruises on a kid at two different times, the kid is not removed from the home. Think about it: Is that kid better off with parents who might be able to stop, or in the Foster Care System for the rest of their life?
So we are making bets, right? Is it better to leave, because it is likely to get worse? Or is it better to stay because the benefits from things improving, although unlikely, are huge?
I’m in the startup community. It’s the world of high risk. You bet big on yourself, you kill your family’s credit, you put your house on the line, and maybe, just maybe, your company will make it.
So why wouldn’t I bet big on myself now? I am not the whole problem in my family, but I am half. And over the last year I have described multiple situations where I was half the problem.
I can improve my own half and see what happens. Have you been to couple’s therapy? There’s a saying that a marriage is a gear system. If one gear changes, all the gears change.
Blog commenters will argue against this idea by telling me not to change because It’s not my fault.
But really, how do they know? We know that I grew up in a home where there was lots of violence. So it’s likely that I will be in that kind of house when I’m an adult. And surely it’s possible that I am contributing to the mix since I am statistically likely to create a violent household. Here’s another thing: You don’t know what I did leading up to the bruise in the photo.
I’ll tell you what my mom used to do leading up to my dad hitting her:
One night they were wallpapering. They had been wallpapering the living room after work for a week. My mom got mad at my dad and threw red paint all over the wallpaper. Ruined all their work. He didn’t respond. He was stunned. Then she knocked over the table with the wallpaper and the glue. It ruined the newly varnished floors. He held her arms so she couldn’t do anything else. He held tighter and tighter. She kicked him to get loose. She left no mark. He hit her in the face.
If she blogged about it, and showed the hand print on her face, she might get 500 commenters telling her it’s not her fault.
Should she leave with me and my brother because our dad is violent and we should not live with him? Or should she work on her own behavior to see if she can single-handedly stop the violence?
I think the most grown-up, good parenting thing for her to do would be to understand her own behavior and stop it so that me and my brother could grow up in a home with both our parents. She didn’t do that, of course. She had little insight into her own behavior and she and my dad ended up taking most of their anger out on me.
My mom had good choices she could have made because, in fact, part of the domestic violence was her fault.
“It’s not your fault” completely limits a woman’s choices, because you are saying that she is powerless to control the situation. And if you tell every woman “it’s not your fault” then they can’t improve. How do women get better at not creating a violent household? Probably by changing their behavior. This doesn’t mean “always tiptoe around your spouse and become a mouse”. But it can mean a wide range of positive changes.
We are all growing personally. It’s not your fault is almost always a path to no growth. It’s what Oprah founded her show on, right? Personal responsibility. Why don’t we go there, first, before we go to “it’s not your fault”. The truth is that if we take responsibility for the problems in our lives, we can solve the problem. If we blame other people, we are always running. People who blame other people can’t get along with siblings, can’t get along at work, lose friends quickly. People who facilitate that behavior say, “It’s not your fault.”
Most of the success of my blog comes from my reliance on the idea of personal responsibility. There are no bad bosses–it’s only you. If you can’t get a job it’s not because of the job market, it’s because you are unemployable. And you can fix that. Your heavy workload is not because someone gave it to you — you gave it to yourself. People like what I say because I show them how they can fix anything when they take responsibility for fixing it. That’s what I truly believe.
And that’s why I’m staying with the Farmer.
I was terrified of getting married. I was 21. Then i got married. then i came to the conclusion that marriage can survive anything, even cheating, but abuse.
After i read your post on abuse i was heartbroken. i commented under jezebel’s article about you. and then i bought Carre Otis memoir for my kindle and have been reading it like a hungry wolf.
My goodness! it has helped me understand the issue of domestic violence so much!
it inspires so much hope in me when i read that you will try to work it out with the farmer. i really don’t know him. and hopefully he is the kind of guy that wants to work it out and doesn’t think it’s okay to be violent.
i don’t have anything to advice because i don’t know the whole situation.
I work with someone that stayed married through 12 years of drug addiction in her husband, then he recovered, then they are still working through their marriage. I was stunned.
how can that be? and she’s strong. she’s okay!
maybe we’ve been sold a very wrong story of domestic violence all along. then we just can’t be helpful when we come across these situations.
sure, maybe you need to live in a hotel for a month. but that doesn’t mean leaving the farmer.
i’m dumbfounded of how we make super strong comments on situations that we are completely ignorant of!
I’m sorry, but I don’t agree with you. Even if it was your behavior that lit the fuse, there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Slapping a hysterical person is not the same as “abuse.” If you are experiencing violence from your husband on multiple occasions, you need to leave. It is NOT OKAY, in my opinion, to teach your sons that violence is acceptable. One day they will be men and that either dole out the violence themselves “because she made me do it” or fall for some abusive women who will kill their self esteem.
I’m sorry, Penelope but that is BS. It can still NOT be your fault (it isn’t) because everyone has the choice not to be violent no matter what ANYONE does. Just look at civil disobedience methods-no matter what anyone does to you, you are NEVER violent. It’s called self-control.
That doesn’t mean you can’t improve yourself and improve relationships. I can’t imagine anyone saying that. But it’s much easier to do that when you’re not with someone who is being violent to you. At least take a break from the relationship and work on yourself.
If it were just you who you were subjecting to this relationship, I could understand and ignore the fact that you want to try and change and make the relationship work.
BUT hyou have children! You are subjecting them to this – teaching them that this is ok?!
It is your responsibility as a parent to keep your kids safe.
This is not ok.
if this is the level of manipulation you are comfortable employing on your audience, I can’t imagine what you aim at ‘the farmer”. Stunning. And deeply screwed up.
Plagerized & extracted directly from the 2Jan Carolyn Hax column in the WashPost:
“You've agreed to be treated indifferently [also insert “violently”; “callously”] by someone for, apparently, a pretty long time. Please find out – and fix – the underlying reason for that, because the first thing you bring to a relationship and the last thing you have to count on when it goes wrong is: You. That's it. Make sure you're able to see yourself as a person you can count on in the clutch.”
Hax’s very wise words can be applied to PT’s situation – as well as to all of us readers out here in the ether ….
You both knew what you were before you tied the knot. The smart person learns from their mistakes. The wise person learns from others mistakes. If your not married take heed. May all this pass quickly for the both of you.
You are right in saying that you play a role in this relationship and obviously you therefore play a role in what happens in this relationship. As you’ve documented on this blog, you also have a pretty terrible personal history when it comes to violence (what you witnessed between your parents and what was perpetrated on you at a young age). It is therefore, not surprising that you would view your current relationship as tenable and something that can be worked on.
I’d like to provide you with a different perspective. I have worked as a domestic violence counselor and rape victims’ advocate for many years. I have co-facilitated a support group for women who had their children taken away from them because they refused to leave an abusive relationship. As terrible as that probably sounds to you (and it is pretty terrible because the foster system is no place for any child) it’s the law because children SHOULD NEVER BE EXPOSED TO VIOLENCE IN THE HOME. The fact that you were is now coloring the way you view the violence in your own home. Do you want your children to grow up thinking it’s okay for people who love each other to hit each other?
Your example of the fight between your mother and father seems to me to be an example of two grown people who don’t know how to behave in an adult relationship. Your mother was wrong and childish. There were plenty of ways for your father to react but the one he chose (to hit her) was the wrong one.
I encourage you to seek immediate and ongoing professional help. If it were just you, I’d say do what you want and good luck, but you have children in your home and for their sake, you CANNOT think this way. You are damaging their lives and any hope they have for normal, healthy relationships by staying in this situation.
Penelope, I’m saying this not out of disdain for you as an abuse victim, but out of concern, frustration, and a sense of urgency:
This is bullshit. I don’t care you if you ax-murder is best friend, he STILL doesn’t get to hit you.
my mother specializes in abused relationships. i have always blamed her for staying in them — thought she was weak, or frightened, or helpless, or something.
thank you for this post. you’ve given me a way to re-think all that. and you’re the first person whose ever done that.
and best of luck to you and your loved ones.
Good for you because if you left him for another relationship, the cycle would only repeat itself.
A few years I was on a road bike ride with a group of guys. All of a sudden the one who was riding beside me starts telling me that he beat up his girlfriend (threw her against the wall) a few days ago because she looked at another guy. He got so mad because she did that that he reacted in this physically violent manner. He indicated that he did not think this was an entirely justified reaction from his side, but he also complained bitterly that she also provoked it by looking at another guy. And now she does not trust him any more. So, in his view, she carried the responsibility for behaving wrong and his reaction, while a little over the top was excusable. And he was surprised that she now was reluctant to trust him again. I personally think there is something wrong in this picture…personal responsibility yes – but on both sides of the equation.
P.S. I don;t know how this story ended, but I nearly rode my bike into an oncoming car because it was pretty upsetting.
trust . . . I wonder if this is what Penelope meant in her original post about the psychology of quitting, when she used the words “neither of us is willing to be vulnerable in a relationship” (quoting the marriage counselor)?
Yes, if trust is gone, the relationship is an empty shell. And if one of the partners doesn’t get trust, well, then . . . something very basic is missing in that person’s ability to relate and understand relationships at all.
You will do what you do and what we say won’t matter, but you had better not kid yourself that you are thinking about your kids in any way. You are probably an incredibly difficult person to be around and may well do awful, ridiculous things, but that doesn’t mean that someone should lose their shit and hit you in response. As someone said, you know that it is not okay to hit your kids even when they make you homicidal.
You are mentally ill and addicted to something – the drama, your own neediness, whatever it is. But if you believe anything anyone tells you, believe this. Your kids see it all and will remember it all. When they are old enough and tired of the hell you have made of their lives, they will leave or distance themselves. Do what you want with your own life, but don’t screw theirs’ up any more than you have. You had a horrible childhood and I am really surprised that you are not completely focused on giving them a different life than you had. But you aren’t. You are using them to feed your own needs. The homeschooling, the living in the car driving everywhere for lessons, the isolation, the jerking them around here and there, the subjecting them to a crazy mother and an abusive stepfather. None of it is good for them.
A couple more points. You really don’t have any credibility anymore as a career advice blogger. And your ex-husband is contemptible for allowing the kids to live in this situation.
What are you doing? I’m not foolish enough to think that anything I say in a blog comment will sway you and your decision. But, I guess you seem to want to all ways. First, you’re a victim with a bruise who is “dying”. Then, when people care about what happens to you and your children, you think people are being reactionary. You’re probably right. You’re probably a terrible and hard person to live with. But lots of people are terrible and hard and don’t deserve to be hit. But you’re in a toxic relationship. You’re both totally terrible for each other, right? But your answer can’t be “well I’m going to stay because otherwise I’ll repeat my pattern with someone else.” What? Also, as a frequent reader of your blog, you seem to just decide on an answer and then marshal your evidence to support it. This could pay off big, so site your posts about how hard a VC project is? What about referencing your posts about how people always thing they’re the exceptions when they’re not (I can do great post law school, I should go to business school)? For all your evidence that children should have two parents, what about all the evidence that crazy toxic relationships create an unstable unhappy life for kids? You don’t want to leave because it’s hard. Just you should, and you must know that. People aren’t rooting against you, really. But if you’re giving people a load of BS, they should call you on it. So yes, take personal responsibility and fix yourself. But it seems unlikely you can do that while you’re with your husband. Good luck!
No man has ever hit me or bruised me.
More, none of the men in my life have ever hit or bruised any woman.
I know that there is nothing my husband could do that would lead me to hit him. I know that there is nothing I could do that would lead my husband to hit me.
For some people physical violence is simply not “in their repertoire” it’s just not what comes naturally as reaction to frustration, no matter how extreme. You could find such a person – if you wanted to.
I’ve always found it ridiculous when commentators would threaten you with CPS and loosing custody etc. You’re right that CPS is never going to take kids away in a situation like yours. But that doesn’t make it right. I know you’re giving your kids a home that is 100% safer and in all ways better then the one you grew up in – but that doesn’t mean your relationship with the Farmer is not bad for them.
Do you ever hit your Asperger’s child? I think not. Why?
I am also a big believer in making a marriage work, almost no matter what, for the sake of the children. I am blisteringly socially conservative, and am in general opposed to divorce. My views were formed in part by reading the research that emerged around the time I was pregnant with my first, which showed that kids actually don’t care that much, even if their parents are in a high conflict marriage, and are still better off than in a divorce.
Here are two things that are also in that research, that are relevant. They are two of the reasons why I think you should leave the Farmer.
1) all of these works find that children don’t much care if their parents fight a lot, *but there is no abuse.* Abuse changes the dynamic. It’s right there in all those studies. Also in those studies: even if the parents think the kids don’t know about the hitting, it affects them. Whether it’s because they actually do know, or because it’s just so toxic it still harms them, the reality is that being in a house with DV harms kids. You may try to dismiss this by saying that it wasn’t “real” abuse because you provoked it/weren’t hospitalized/whatever, but please be intellectually honest enough to acknowledge that the research you cite to support staying actually indicates the opposite. That’s the exception to kids being better off with parents together.
2) This research is about children’s two original parents staying together. Living with a live in boyfriend in fact increases the risk of abuse of children and is linked with a bunch of negative outcomes. If you were enduring this for the hope and sake of making it work with the boys’ actual father, I *might* think “she’s taking a risk because she’s hoping it will lead to what’s best for her kids.” Probably not; probably point 1 would still overrule it, and then there’s the issue of basic self-respect and self-defense. But it would give me pause for thought.
But none of these works show that it’s important to make your current live-in boyfriend stick around forever for the sake of the kids. Best for kids is living with their own married parents (without abuse.) Second best for kids is living with separated parents, in some schedule that gives them time with both (who don’t abuse them or each other – anymore if they used to). Third best is marrying someone – for realsies – and making it work. You’ve been hedging your bets from the start with the Farmer, starting with not really being married.
So none of the facts you cite bear out your logic or support your decision. If you want a healthy marriage then by all means build one with the right guy who will be a good stepfather and example for your kids. But the right guy will never bruise you like that.
Hear, hear – this comment is spot on.
Penelope’s products are her ideas and the socratic freaking beat downs she gives to those who oppose her logic and her data. A fine ENTJ, I’ve been such a fan.
And that’s why her professional credibility is called into question now. It’s not about being mean to Penelope. It’s about intellectual dishonesty. My judgment is on the merit of her arguments, not on her value as a human.
That she is valuable and lovable is implicit, and many of us additionally carry an implicit value that we will not tolerate a relationship that crushes our talents and energy and productivity via any kind of violence, given we have talents to offer that must be nurtured. A person with Aspergers and a bad family background has a double threat of just clean missing what’s both not explicit and not experienced.
So yes, many of us are saying we would walk away not because we “haven’t been there,” but because we would, and have, walked away. Really. It doesn’t go all gray area because it didn’t get that far. I absolutely agree that once it does, I don’t know the first thing about the kind of guts it takes to summon energy and will to get out.
As a product of an emotionally abusive background (not physically abusive, but emotional abuse did put me at risk for future physical abuse), the way I have sort of recovered was the fake it to make it approach. I observed the relationships of stable, productive people: they are boring to be honest, relative to what I was used to. Loosely speaking here in the interest of length, a long time ago I banked that I would fake one of those boring relationships till I made it. I was lucky enough to find someone I liked and was attracted to who had the characteristics I decided intellectually that I needed, to balance me. I didn’t settle and it took a long time and luck to find a person I have an abundance of respect for, and got to know for two years so I knew exactly what I was getting into, of course he’s not perfect. It was a huge leap of faith, to bet on something that didn’t feel natural, and that’s why I won my bet, because I didn’t bet on the noisy and damaged part of myself. My relationship has not fed the needs of my demon, I picture my demon in a sealed mason jar in my head where she jumps up and down. My demon just isn’t credible in this area (although my gut is straight up super yoda in all others). Over time I have found such sweetness in the actual depth of what appeared to be boredom, and my gut is changing. We love each other. That is what I wish for Penelope. To parent herself, using available models. It’s a long term solution to a longstanding problem.
Meantime, Penelope Trunk, you ought to be called on the BS of your post. Your product is suffering. The Penelope Trunk of any other subject matter would go on the radio today and eat you alive on this. Be loyal to the version of you that rocks it. I have unsubscribed to your posts, I am walking away. Trust the real data and get a little humility about your gut here, given its origin. I think you will achieve new heights.
While your research may support your view, my experience completely disagrees. I was thankful my parents divorced so that I could live in a peaceful household (it wasn’t abusive just angry). I learned from the divorce a tood deal about being an independent woman which I credit to making me a great spouse to my husband of 12 years. This husband by the way grew up in a household with an intact but loveless marriage and he, far more than me, has been negatively impacted by his parents relationship. He looks at my upbringing as the more positive and less dysfunctional and I completely agree. He is looking to the door any time there is a minor confrtontation because he is so terrified of ending up in an unhappy marriage. Thankfully this has improved over the years but this fear remains as his biggest fear in life.
Research ignores the human experience which is varied and complicated. I wouldn’t recommend that anyone make major life decisions because the research said it was so. Nor would I recommend that you pass judgment on people that don’t fit what you find to be acceptable criteria to leave their spouse. Glad that you would approve of Penelope doing so, I’m sure she will sleep better knowing she has the support of you and the research.
I completely agree, Amy. I lived in your husband’s childhood and it is horrible. When I’m in a relationship, I do exactly as your husband does when there is discourse. It is damaging. My parents have been unhappily married for 54 years and I *still* wish they’d divorce. It won’t happen but I can’t stand being around them. They clearly don’t like each other.
People love to make statistics fit their excuses. It gives them the chance to think they are doing the right thing b/c of data versus the looks on their children’s or spouses’ faces.
I always say: “There are three things you never want to see being made: sausage, legislature and market research.” I know this to be true because I was a market researcher and analyst!
Amy, darling, research is true for large populations. It never claims there are no exceptions. Many people who brush their teeth still get cavities, and this does not invalidate the reality that the best way to avoid cavities remains to brush your teeth. Someone who declined to brush their kids’ teeth because hey, I know someone who brushed her teeth and still got cavities, would be roundly considered not just irresponsible but dumb.
Look at it this way – you’d probably be less screwed up if your parents had split. And your husband would be more so if his had too. That doesn’t mean that he can’t be more screwed up than you, just that he’s be worse off, and you would be better off, if your parents had valued marriage.
But hey, feel free to spit upon the received wisdom of every culture plus research.
With regards to my spitting on "the received wisdom of every culture plus research": certainly no one has ever heard of research being manipulated to suit the bias of the researchers or the sponsors of said research! If you go into research with a theory already formed, the research will often conclude exactly what you thought you already knew. Much of the research that supports your viewpoint comes from conservative think tanks. A two second Google search will find research that contradicts that which you site. I'm sure research coming from an alternative viewpoint might come from liberal think tanks. My point is that research should be viewed critically and not accepted always at face value.
Additionally, in the culture I live in it's not the accepted wisdom that growing up in a dysfunctional home is preferable for the children than divorce. It's actually a subject of debate and the viewpoints vary greatly. My guess is that you also live in this culture but hey, feel free to disregard the experiences and viewpoints of others because they don't agree with you.
You assumed and judged that I am screwed up because I come from divorced parents (by the way, my mother who didn't "value" marriage, has been in her second marriage for the past 20 years) despite not knowing anything about me and despite your admission that there are exceptions, even to the bible of research you follow. I can safely say that I am no more screwed up than any other average person, including those from in-tact homes. I am successful professionally and personally. I have a happy marriage. I'm college educated. No mental health or behavioral issues. On the downside, I’m obviously very sarcastic and can get rather condescending- not sure that has much to do with a broken home but you know the research so well, you tell me. You seem to have a good deal of that yourself! I'm sure you won't believe any of this about me because you've already made your conclusions but it makes me feel better to put it out there. Oh no, it just occurred to me, I must be insecure because I felt compelled to say all those things to reassure myself that I'm not screwed up- clearly a result of my parents not staying together.
Oh, wait I left out the most important part of my non-screwed up existence. I have healthy social relationships with groups of individuals who both agree and disagree with my belief systems because I believe that diversity leads to a richer life experience. You could stand to be more like me – .friend.
Amy, smart people invariably don’t end their posts by telling people to be more like them. You might be a genius or you might be a 12 year old with access to Mommy’s laptop – I neither know nor care. I have confidence in my ability to approach research critically, being an academic with a CV full of peer reviewed work. I know for a fact that Penelope has the intelligence to take a real look at the research and synthesize it for herself, and am disappointed that she’s choosing a lack of intellectual integrity because she can do better. I neither know nor care whether you can do better. End of my discussion with you.
I grew up in an abusive household on a farm in western Wisconsin. I remember when I was in second grade I couldn't wait to go to school each morning to get away from my parent's fighting. I would lay awake at night listening to the yelling worrying my mom would leave again. This was the pattern: a huge fight, my mom would leave my dad, he would say he'd change, she'd move back home, everything would be great for a month or two then there would be another huge explosion. As a child I did think my mom did things to provoke my dad, but even if she did hitting her was never an appropriate response. My mom left my dad for good when my youngest brother turned 18 with the prompting and assistance of one of my sisters. There were six children in my family and most of us have spent some time in therapy. Our therapists have pointed out that our father may have been abusive, but our mother played a role in the abuse as well by not protecting us. Plus, she was so focused on her own drama she wasn't there for us.
So this is what I foresee – another big blowup in a couple of months. You will write another should I stay or should I go post and we will all be right back where we started. You may think your children aren't suffering, but they are. They need a secure home where they do not need to worry their mom is going to get mad at their new dad and they will have to move again. Plus, they can never get away from the tension and have a normal life during the day because you home school them.
I think you’re doing victims of domestic violence a disservice to imply that this is somehow your fault or that sometimes the abused person is at fault (even half at fault.) Unless you literally grabbed his arm and made him shove you into that bedpost, it actually isn’t your fault, for the simple reason that you don’t have agency in *another person’s* actions.
So even if you are terrible, it’s still not your fault he HIT you. It’s just your fault you’re terrible. But try this thought experiment: if you were just as terrible to a friend of yours, would he/she hit you? If your kids were as terrible to you as you say you are to The Farmer, would you hit them? Probably not, because your friend’s and your response to anger is different.
Even at your best self, you can’t expect to never make The Farmer angry again. That’s unrealistic for any relationship. And as long as he deals with anger by hitting, that part of your relationship will not change, no matter how much you do.
If anyone is reading the story Penolope & The Farmer from the beginning it’s obvious that she isn’t leaving her husband anytime soon. (I don’t really think there are many girls out there who would marry a guy that kept leaving them. Over 50 times or so, as she said he did.)
Even thought I agree with some things P. has said about taking responsibility I don’t agree with the way she interprets it. I agree that she must have done something that may be prone to a response from The Farmer, I diverge from her when she assumes it’s OK for that response to be violent (physically, verbally or emotionally). But I do think both partners must assume responsibility for their actions toward the other. If P. is herself prone to violent outbursts (or that The Farmers views as such) she must deal with them first and not expect that her partner to deal with them (their own way, violent or not).
Bottom line I don’t think your marriage is doing yourself (or The Farmer, or your kids) any good. For a relationship to work a set of other things besides passion (and even love) are required. First thing first: who need to know yourself well.
Even thought I’m not a therapist I would like to leave P. a ‘question’: Don’t you think that your relationship with The Farmer replicates in some ways your former marriage?
(What strikes me most is the apparent (?) lack or miscommunication between he spouses in the two relationships.)
Wish you well, P.
Really, it’s OK to forgive, (an important skill in marriage!) and to try again. No, I don’t think anyone should be hit or thrown – ever – but no one can make you angrier, hurt you more, or make you more insane than your spouse. In the volatile 20’s and 30’s, I can’t tell you how often I packed up the kids and left. And it turns out that I am lucky – incredibly lucky – that I kept coming back. I hope this works for you. Remind The Farmer that it doesn’t work to hit animals – it won’t work to hit a person.
My husband left me for another woman. When their relationship ended, he said he wanted me back. Though I have not let him move in my home, we are once again in a relationship and trying to figure things out.
Do you know how many women, when they find out I have let my husband back in my life, talk to me as if I am crazy? Because of my choice not to divorce my husband I have been told that I don’t love or respect myself. I have been told that I’m teaching our children bad lessons. These are the same people that jokingly said to me that if their husband cheated on them, they would burn all his things or invest in a good baseball bat. I found their comments more hurtful than helpful.
These black and white responses to betrayal, whether it be physical, sexual, or emotional help no one. Obviously, Penelope does not think she or her kids are in grave danger or she would leave. It is all quite scary, but there are many things in life that are scary and people can get through them. I think her post with the provocative bruise picture was written when she was in shock. Her response was understandable for she had a lot to process. Violence is NEVER the answer, but it need not always end the discussion.
These are complex issues, and they may never be solved, but I think it is worth it to try. Isn’t that how we grow? Isn’t that what life’s about?
“Obviously, Penelope does not think she or her kids are in grave danger or she would leave.”
Grace, what on earth has given you the idea that Penelope has that level of judgment, courage, or willingness to stick out a difficult but necessary path?
Really? Why did she go to the hotel and tell her readers she thought she was dying? Why did she take a picture of her naked self (hopefully she didn’t make one of her kids take the photo) with an alleged bruise caused by the farmer throwing her into thier bedpost? Why did she say she thought she needed to stay in a hotel for a month? If she didn’t think she was in danger, non of these actions make sense to a rational person. She is now rationalizing(predictably) after the fact that it’s ok to go back. But that doesn’t mean she’s not in danger.
Penelope – Not going to try in any way to tell you what to do. But here’s the thing. I’ve worried about you for a long time. I worried when you tweeted about miscarrying during a board meeting. I worried when you cracked your head open by purposely smashing a lamp over your own head. I worried when the Farmer tried to run you down with the tractor. I worried when you stood in a public restroom sucking the pus out of your abscessed tooth (you are obviously not taking care of yourself). Now this violent incident. You said you were staying at the hotel for a month to get some perspective. Now just 3 days later, you say you’re definitely staying with the Farmer. I’ve always regarded you as a courageous writer, strong woman, brilliant career advisor. But I’ve worried about you more and more frequently. I hope you’re OK, I hope you’re thinking clearly, I hope that your sons are OK. I hope it all works out. But I worry. Maybe zero tolerance for domestic violence is wrong…but how much does one tolerate before its right to leave?
How dare you deny us the comfortable superiority of broadly accepted moral absolutes? This is America.
And are we (commentors) being taught a lesson in subtlety from a 40-something, variably employed mother with autism?
Yes, if there is a pattern of violence, you should leave. But one, even two, heavily provoked bruises doesn’t necessarily make a pattern. Though it might. That’s for you to decide based on the situation(s). Nothing is absolute. Given your usual oversubscription to belief I’m surprised by how well you seem to understand that.
You go girl. Don’t be a victim, whether that means you need to leave or stay. You know what situation is best overall for yourself, choose that. Becoming a victim is in one’s attitude: it’s taking this story to your blog in the slightly hysterical way you did last time. This post? This is taking control and responsibility.
“The Farmer told me that he will not beat me up any more if I do not make him stay up late talking to me.”
Even if someone was as weak willed as to accept the argument that sometimes people just have to hit each other and they can’t help it, it would not apply in this case, because its clearly not a spur of the moment, regretted thing. Its rationalized on both sides.
This “farmer” isn’t someone who is having lapses in self control, its someone who’s decided that physical violence is an appropriate response to certain provocations. And that he will only agree to stop using violence when she corrects her behaviour. Great lesson to teach the kids.
If this guy really had a problem with hitting women but just had poor impulse control, then he would have already volunteered to leave the household since he would know he can’t control himself around her, but he doesn’t even have that excuse. He’s fine with hitting her, and apparently so is she (As long as she gets to tell herself that she’s not really an abused woman, that the hitting is really down to her because of how she acts, its all about her). Its a good job those 2 people are the only ones who matter. /s
If you can’t see how fucked up this arrangement is then there is no hope for you.
This will get worse. Unfortunately its not Penelope who’ll suffer most, since she seems to be relishing the adversity (and publicity). It’s her two kids who are going to suffer (not least because they’re home schooled and have little escape from such a poisonous home environment) If you think growing up as a kid having someone beat your mother is not damaging then you’re insane.
This is nothing to do with absolutes. It’s about what is and isn’t acceptable behaviour for grown adults.
Hi penelope
Firstly, I think it’s incredibly brave of you to live your life like this out in the public eye. I’ve not posted before but the post on the psychology of quitting has stirred something and I feel compelled to write to you.
All of us have choices and you made a very good case for taking on personal responsibility in the latest post. But ultimately, you cannot solve all problems.
Also, if you could have solved this problem you are attempting to solve now by changing who you are, I dont think that its going to be a quick fix. So although I agree that personal responsibility is the way forward for making real change and progress, I dont know that it solves all the issues with your relationship with the farmer. I agree that it takes two to tango here but I dont think that you should accept abuse. It’s just a progressively downhill battle once it starts.
Living this public life, I guess you should be aware that there are others who may look to you for advice and put some weight on your opinion. So much has already been said about the effect on your kids, on your own psyche and on your relationship that I feel I cant add more at this point without repetition. But I wish you well, I thank you for sharing this and bringing this to the top of the pile.
I cant help but remember what I read that its only you that can make yourself happy.
I know you get a million comments and posting this feels a little like spitting in the ocean. I have been reading your blog for a long time, I think you are a brilliant writer. Reading a well-written blog makes me feel like I know the person writing it, which is silly. Any snapshot of someone’s life is always going to leave something out. I don’t know what is really going on in your home.
I have been on both sides of domestic violence, and I am currently volunteering at a crisis shelter for women (as an acupuncturist). I have seen a lot of people in violent situations, and they are all different. People end up in violent relationships and stay in violent relationships for many reasons, and it is easy for people who have never been there to have blanket opinions. I am a strong person, and I am also a difficult person (I’m an ENTJ). Some of the abuse was my fault, some of it wasn’t. There were people who said I was an idiot for ending up in that situation, and then tried to comfort me and tell me what to do in the same breath. It was very frustrating. I do think there are things you can do to help the relationship, but you have said that you are comfortable with feeling like it’s your fault. Also try to recognize when it isn’t, or when the punishment is disproportionate to the crime.
If you want to talk to someone, send me an email. I know I’m a total stranger, but I won’t judge you or tell you what to do.
I find this type of over simplification happening far too often. People’s lives are far more complicated than we ever assume and there is rarely a simple solution to our issues that can be summed up by a stranger in the comments section of a blog.
What you need to know though is that much of people reaching out to say its not your fault stems from their concern for you. Abuses tend to blame the victims even in cases where the victim truly isn’t at fault. When you open yourself up as you do people feel as if they know you and they want you to be safe and happy. There are certainly exceptions. I’m speechless at how cold people can be in their comments but that has less to do with you and more to do with their own issues.
At the end of the day we are all working throguh our stuff and rarely do the solutions come easily or quickly.
Just keep in mind that his blaming you is also an abdication of personal responsibility. I don’t fault you for wanting to own your role but he must own his as well and blaming you for his behavior isn’t a great start. This will be necessary if you are going to find peace in your marriage. You have my compassion and understanding that no ones life is as simple as we make it out to be. I hope you are able to work this through to a peaceful resolution regardless of what it looks like.
Zero tolerance for most things is usually foolish. Having a nuanced understanding of family dynamics, conflict, and abuse is important for all involved. It’s honest. Sometimes you can fix things, sometimes you can’t. I know I could not fix the abusive relationship I was in but the abuser was not willing. Also, I was definitely abused and manipulated. There was a huge power imbalance due to age and shared history. It wasn’t a marriage or true partnership. My husband would never be violent with me, even if I got violent with him first. I know that about him. But if he did, he would be the one person I could trust to work it out with.
I did not recreate my childhood with my husband but lord knows I sometimes can’t help trying to! I’m lucky he just doesn’t have that desire. And I also think I just don’t need to recreate it as much as I did several years ago. We all pick who we need to learn from. It’s good that you have this insight about your parents and current relationship. I think it’s also useful to know that recreating chaos isn’t inevitable.
Hey Penelope,
I’m with you. No cross-examination, no outrage, no weirdness, no agenda, no passive-aggression regarding your situation
Just support and good thoughts. Best of luck to you both.
There are 2 kids involved who don’t have the opportunity to get out.
You don’t get to gamble with their lives on the chance that suddenly this relationship that has been getting progressively worse starts to get better.
She’s already admitted that growing up in a violent household has had an effect on her (likely what is making her think its okay for the kids to grow up in such a household). She’s perpetuating a cycle of violence, for nothing more than a narcissistic urge to take “responsibility” and “fix” things. Because her having a relationship for some guy she’s known for 3 years is more important than their kids growing up in a stable environment without being exposed to violence, and emotional abuse.
All her language is about how its HER choice. Her kids don’t even get a mention (except vicariously when she talks about what it was like for HER to grow up as a kid under these conditions). If it was alright for her, its alright for her kids right?
“The Farmer told me that he will not beat me up any more if I do not make him stay up late talking to me.”
Physical abuse should not be conditional on anything, ever. If you’re going to play the “we can work through it line” it HAS to be under the guise that any violence is a lapse in self control, not that its an agreement for good behaviour.
Thank god non of the women in my life are this servile and pathetic.
“The Farmer told me that he will not beat me up any more if I do not make him stay up late talking to me.”
It would be “zero tolerance” if this was the first time it happened. But its not.
All your rationalizations pale in insignificance to the quote. Physical violence is not something you bargain with. If zero tolerance really was wrong (Which it isn’t), then the appropriate response would be “this never happens again or I’m gone”.
Not, “I’ll only stop hitting you if you stop doing stuff to piss me off”.
Frankly I think you’re insanely immoral to expose your kids to this kind of behaviour (not to mention blazing rows that make them cry).
I could get some sort of schaudenfruedic joy out of the situation if it wasn’t for the fact there are 2 vulnerable WHO HAVE TO LIVE WITH SOMEONE WHO HITS THEIR MOTHER.
Please put your kids up for adoption if you’re not willing to put them before your emotional desires, and narcissistic urge to take responsibility for the beatings.
Penelope,
If you haven’t already read this, I’d highly recommend you read “The Dance of Anger: A woman’s guide to changing the patterns of intimate relationships” by Harriet Lerner. The book talks about how both parties contribute to angry explosions that aren’t productive and serve to reinforce patterns established in the relationship as well as outside of it.
While I do not condone domestic violence, let’s be real here, people get angry and things happen that both parties can (but, not always) contribute to. I think it’s definitely possible for abuse on the women’s part to lead to a physical reaction from a man. While it is never justified, vilifying the man in all cases isn’t right either. It’s not a black and white issue.
Good luck Penelope and stay safe.
My last post diifer make it past rhe moderator so here is the watered down version.
Domestic Violence is the relatively new politically correct term for wife beating. Mr. Farmer is a Wife Beater. And you are likely suffering from your own unique flavor of Battered Wife Syndrome.
It matters not who started it, whose fault it is, or anything else. Violence is Violence. Domestic just means its at home.
Pen, I know you like to do research. Have you researched these terms? Do you know the odds for the farmer changing his behaviour? What about the odds you will change in this situation? And what are the odds the children will suffer long term from their exposure to the violence in the home?
Do some more research, and tell me you are going to play the odds, putting your kids mental health on the line? And you are doing this for… Personal Growth?
I am beginning to feel like an enabler by reading this stuff.
I no longer enjoy your intersection of work and life.
Peace be with you.
Want me to beat him up?
I hear you, Penelope, when you say that you are a risk-taker and proud of it. Ergo, you will return to the Farmer and step up the problem solving.
But you are also a mother who is taking risks and playing a dangerous game with your children. And for all your honesty, you have not written about your sons’ responses to the fights and shoving.
And you are a brand. Bigger brands than you have gone down in flames over domestic issues–Tiger Woods for example. (And I am hoping with all my heart that this is not more persuasive than protecting your children.)
I am picturing you and the Farmer forgiving one another now, and how seductive that must be . . .
the farmers not the dad though right? hes just some violent guy who their mother married out of her own lack of self worth and who they will either grow up despising or emulating. its the oldest cliche of all time and yet shes acting like theres some radical feminist reasoning behind believing that shes asking for it. I found this site through jezabel and these posts are just too upsetting, that this is an advice site is irresponsible and repulsive.
Goodness, Penelope, you are probably the bravest person I have ever encountered!
Once you said that one of the things that drives you crazy is that people who write to you for career advice all write a million words and think they’re special. And they’re not special, the same problems repeat over and over and people just don’t realize it applies to them.
What if you’re not special? What if you’re exactly like every other woman who gets hit and thinks it’s her fault?
I think Penelope is just going public with her private life and the interesting thing is what people can comment on a blog. There are no right answers here, well there are – but P would have to find the right response or answer to her problem on her own, she would have to realize it herself, it can’t be told or advised, that is one of the reasons this is an interesting blog post- how do you advise someone in a situation like this so that it works? What happens between two people is always different then between two other people, there is never the same combination. So Penelope is different, we are all different and special. Each situation is different, we are all individuals – or need to think we are. But women do take care of women and I think that is an important thing to remember – but in P’s situation this is not what you want to hear. There are theories, there are facts and figures, there are even real proved equations about violence that can always be applied. What needs to be seen here (I think) is what is actually happening – a public exposure of something which is very private, which is not reality television but mirroring something like it – it is sociologically interesting – somewhere between voyeurism and something else, violence between couples, exposure to violence for children. We can’t know what is really happening between Penelope and her husband, and yes – all of the suggestions about the family and the community they live in such as stopping the homeschooling and the other suggestions are good ones and I think that the children probably should stop the homeschooling because they need a way out from under, whether or not P should leave her husband – is different – but she has brought the subject up – not to get advice but to create a blog post about this subject. It is very generous of Penelope to blog this sort of thing – and I think it will probably become something that will make it into the text books and however you look at it – it is an opening up of the subject of domestic violence and the structure of the family home that is – healthy- because the subject is being approached and opened up for public discussion.
You’re a brave girl, Penny.
I wouldn’t want to be married to you but I hope things go well for you.
Penelope, I don’t think you’re seeing the situation clearly. You want to believe that you and your situation is different from every other case of domestic violence but you have no real reason to believe this.
Of course it often takes two people to argue. No one is saying that you are perfect or easy to get on with. What they are saying is that it is never OK to respond with violence. You can be responsible for your own behaviour but you are not responsible for the guy hitting you. Not even a little bit. He could yell, he could walk away, he could talk things through, he could end the relationship, he doesn’t have to hit you.
Regardless of whether the kids are being hit or not,it is damaging for them to be around violence and to grow up accepting it as normal. You said yourself that the fact you grew up in a violent home is part of Tge reason why you find yourself in this situation now. Is that what you want for your ins! To grow up and hit or be hit? Yes, they WOULD be better off in a single-parent home without violence. Without question.
If you didn’t believe they would be OK in a single-parent home, you wouldn’t have divorced their father. It’s the fact that the abuse has clouded your judgment that makes you question this. You’ve been gaslighted (look it up).
Leaving may be best for both of you. He clearly has anger management issues to work through and he may find that very difficult in ths current relationship. I do believe people can change but only over many years. Your kids will be all grown up by then and it will be too late to reverse that damage. The thing that gives me most pause is that he seems to be in denial about the fact he has a problem – he blames you or all of it. So what makes you think he will change? Especially when you’ve shown you’ll tolerate it.
You have written plenty of stuff about how difficult you re to work with. Would you tolerate it if one of your colleagues or investors gave you a bruise like the farmer gave you? The fact that you love each other makes it worse not better!
I know you love the guy and it is a terribly difficult situation and decision but just know that you are a human being worthy if love and respect, that you don’t deserve to be hit no matter how imperfect you are, and that there are safe places in the world for you and your sons.
the not Tge
kids not ins
Auto-correct on the iPad is annoying! There are probably other typos too but hopefully you can make sense of what I’m saying from the context!
This is better than reality TV. It’s like “The View”, but with more poorly informed women.
To add into the ‘dialogue’ –
How many of you trashed Hillary Clinton for staying with her husband after the Lewiski fiasco?
And all old Bill did was cat around.
The beatings will continue until morale improves. Used to be just a joke.
“You don’t know what I did leading up to the bruise in the photo.” Quite right. And we still don’t know, and not because nobody asked. Instead we now know the details of a particularly ugly (and irrelevant) incident from your parents’ life.
This is the most irrational self-serving post yet, and that’s saying something.
Indeed. For someone who insists on not having secrets and speaking openly about everything, Penelope seems to be guarding very closely the secret of what she did to trigger the Farmer’s reaction. I think the reason is easy to understand: she knows her readers would not react as she wants, agreeing with her that the physical violence reaction was warranted.
Whatever.
A man should not hit his wife… at all, not matter what the provocation. Leaving doesn’t mena you must divorce – leave the proximity, seek reconciliation, seek pofessional help, seek solutions. But staying and calling it “it’s not all his fault… blah, blah” and “it’s not hurting my kids…” is bullshit and you know it.
Hey, do whatever you want. Just know a few years from now when your bruised and bleeding that many of us urged you to make a change.
I have no patience for people in a bad situation who choose to do nothing to improve it. I agree you may have some responsibility in provoking the Farmer, but he still could have chosen to leave the house rather than hit you. You do have full responsibility for all the damage this day forward to your kids who witness the abuse.
I hope things get better. They won’t, though, unless you do something about it.
I hope you can tranfer some of your career oriented, rash and beautiful bravery to being vulnerable in your relationship as you’ve mentioned you need to be, and by merging the two, find yet another way that your dinamic career has benefited your personal life :). And ours!
Best of wishes for each day this year brings.
Wow. I am so confused to read this entry having just discovered this awesome blog in the past month. At first glance about domestic abuse I thought I had arrived at another destination, that this wasn’t the popular business blog. Now I see and I send my best wishes for everything to work out and work out soon.
To the point that this type of “personal” blog entry has nothing to do with career or career advice:
I think it does. And I think Penelope is making the applications explicit:
1) in the first blog post, the title has “quitting” in it–definitely relatable to one’s career as well as to troubled relationships;
2) in the 2nd blog post, Penelope says explicitly that she does start-ups which require her to be a risk-taker–thus her decision to stay with the Farmer.
It is a sign of intelligence to be able to make applications. And it is a holistic belief that (personal) life and work intersect.
I, for one, will keep reading and believing that these type of blog posts will open up my mind, forcing me to consider topics, solutions, relationships that I never would have considered before.
But I definitely STILL have reservations about the boys being enmeshed in this problem.
@ Chris –
1. what could you apply from the “quitting” post? That you need to be missed from a job that mistreat you?
2. What about the “zero tolerance”? That if you are mistreated at work, it’s your fault, and you should keep working on it?
Awesome. More doormats, and less competition for the rest of us.
Thanks for speaking a more balanced perspective around domestic violence. Everything lives in the grey including this. And the men who are violent this way is still just a way. Zero tolerance is too black and white.
As a recent subscriber, I eagerly looked forward to learning a lot from your blog. I had no idea that I would be learning that you, like many other women blame yourself for domestic violence, feeling that you somehow ‘contribute’ to it. You stated that it is a given that you would grow up to be an adult who would live in a violent household since, you lived in one as a child. Somewhere along the way violence became a normal part of your life. And yes, you did grow up to be that adult, and yes, your kids will too. They will see what is going on in your house, and see that you ‘tolerate’ it, and they will grow up and ‘tolerate’ it too. You may love ‘The Farmer’ and share a family with him, but no one deserves to be abused, not even for throwing red paint on the wallpaper, like your mom did…..that didn’t justify her being abused by someone else. Abuse is a violent form of bullying, and the victim always thinks it is partly their fault. So the life you live is the life you are teaching your kids that it is ok and normal to live, and you are passing domestic violence down, as their legacy. Think about that. There is no reason why you should have to leave. Make him leave and go get help. If he truly wants a loving, peaceful family, he will do so. If not, then having him arrested for his behavior is your opportunity to MAKE him get some help….. a lot of places have anger management programs to help people deal with their anger, and violence in their families. These programs HEAL a lot of families, so the violence does not continue….so children don’t think of it as normal, with girls growing up and allowing boyfriends and husbands to abuse them, and boys don’t grow up thinking they have the right to abuse their girlfriends and wives. For YOU, for YOUR CHILDREN, and for THE FARMER…..Can YOU be strong enough to do what it takes to heal your family? Or will you continue to allow this terrible legacy of violence, and continue to justify it, and continue to ignore those trying to help you, and only blog about those negative comments you receive? It is your life, your family, and YOU have the power to create the kind of family you want to have, but it will mean taking some very serious steps towards healing the family, making some very hard decisions, FOR the family. What will you do, Penelope? WHAT WILL YOU CHOOSE TO DO?
Your Children are looking up to you. What will you do???????
You will do what you do and what we say won’t matter, but you had better not kid yourself that you are thinking about your kids in any way. You are probably an incredibly difficult person to be around and may well do awful, ridiculous things, but that doesn’t mean that someone should lose their shit and hit you in response. As someone said, you know that it is not okay to hit your kids even when they make you homicidal.
You are mentally ill and addicted to something – the drama, your own neediness, whatever it is. But if you believe anything anyone tells you, believe this. Your kids see it all and will remember it all. When they are old enough and tired of the hell you have made of their lives, they will leave or distance themselves. Do what you want with your own life, but don’t screw theirs’ up any more than you have. You had a horrible childhood and I am really surprised that you are not completely focused on giving them a different life than you had. But you aren’t. You are using them to feed your own needs. The homeschooling, the living in the car driving everywhere for lessons, the isolation, the jerking them around here and there, the subjecting them to a crazy mother and an abusive stepfather. None of it is good for them.
A couple more points. You really don’t have any credibility anymore as a career advice blogger. And your ex-husband is contemptible for allowing the kids to live in this situation.
All I can say is — I had some friends. The guy was with one of my friends and the relationship was violent. They split up and then another of my friend went with the guy. I thought, “wtf? is she crazy?” But you know what? No problems. They ended up marrying, having a daughter, being together for 15+ years. One thing I learned was — it is the dynamic between two people that creates a violent relationship. So, I think you are quite on track with how you are working on this.
http://curiousfarmer.com/about/
http://curiousfarmer.com/about/
http://curiousfarmer.com/about/
http://curiousfarmer.com/about/
check out the abuser!
http://curiousfarmer.com/about/
http://curiousfarmer.com/about/
curiousfarmer.com/
curiousfarmer.com/
curiousfarmer.com/
does that look like an abuser to you? fraud, this entire blog is a fraud.