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	<title>Comments on: All career issues are religious issues. Maybe.</title>
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	<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/09/28/all-career-questions-are-religious-in-nature/</link>
	<description>Advice at the intersection of work and life</description>
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		<title>By: mysticaltyger</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/09/28/all-career-questions-are-religious-in-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-224207</link>
		<dc:creator>mysticaltyger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/?p=3959#comment-224207</guid>
		<description>Religion is merely a vehicle for hate, not the foundation of it. If religion were to go away, people would just find another vehicle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Religion is merely a vehicle for hate, not the foundation of it. If religion were to go away, people would just find another vehicle.</p>
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		<title>By: mysticaltyger</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/09/28/all-career-questions-are-religious-in-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-224206</link>
		<dc:creator>mysticaltyger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:11:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/?p=3959#comment-224206</guid>
		<description>Too many sweeping generalizations here. You&#039;re still stuck at being angry at Christian Fundamentalism. 

Just to name one over generalization in your post.... There are lots of intelligent people, including scientists, who don&#039;t believe in anthropogenic global warming. John Stossel (just look up his segment on scientists who don&#039;t believe in global warming in youtube) and David Icke come to mind. There are politics in science as well as religion, &#039;ya know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too many sweeping generalizations here. You&#039;re still stuck at being angry at Christian Fundamentalism. </p>
<p>Just to name one over generalization in your post&#8230;. There are lots of intelligent people, including scientists, who don&#039;t believe in anthropogenic global warming. John Stossel (just look up his segment on scientists who don&#039;t believe in global warming in youtube) and David Icke come to mind. There are politics in science as well as religion, &#039;ya know.</p>
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		<title>By: Umkhonto Labour</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/09/28/all-career-questions-are-religious-in-nature/comment-page-2/#comment-222957</link>
		<dc:creator>Umkhonto Labour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 09:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/?p=3959#comment-222957</guid>
		<description>A comprehensive and well thought out post, Penelope! I am the bad christian in my family, and have long since learned to worship outside of the confines of a church which requires military style compliance from it&#039;s flock. To have a higher source of power to draw energy and inspiration from is something that really helps us humans trough the dark and lonely times. It is just the way we are, and the name we give to that source, and how we choose to relate to it, is our won story. At the end of the day there is a myriad of ways to but one truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A comprehensive and well thought out post, Penelope! I am the bad christian in my family, and have long since learned to worship outside of the confines of a church which requires military style compliance from it&#039;s flock. To have a higher source of power to draw energy and inspiration from is something that really helps us humans trough the dark and lonely times. It is just the way we are, and the name we give to that source, and how we choose to relate to it, is our won story. At the end of the day there is a myriad of ways to but one truth.</p>
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		<title>By: mysticaltyger</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/09/28/all-career-questions-are-religious-in-nature/comment-page-2/#comment-213526</link>
		<dc:creator>mysticaltyger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/?p=3959#comment-213526</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Penelope. Great post!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Penelope. Great post!!!</p>
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		<title>By: EllenSka</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/09/28/all-career-questions-are-religious-in-nature/comment-page-2/#comment-212134</link>
		<dc:creator>EllenSka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 00:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/?p=3959#comment-212134</guid>
		<description>Oh, poor humanist fundamentalist Rob! Can&#039;t see the trees for the forest! 

You sure make a lot of assumptions about my religion. For instance, that I believe in some 2000-year-old dead wiseguy. That I&#039;m anti-science. That I believe a bunch of dogmatic crap. Who are you talking to, really? It isn&#039;t me, and you didn&#039;t even take the time to look up Unitarian Universalism before you indulged in your tirade of ignorant assumptions. Or do you think it&#039;s my Zen Buddhist side that believes in the miracle power of some old teacher? 

I do know there&#039;s something &quot;greater than myself.&quot; It&#039;s called the Milky Way. And that just one local example. 

Your deeply fundamentalist belief in Science doesn&#039;t help me answer FOR MYSELF the meaning of my life. My answers don&#039;t help YOU either. But it doesn&#039;t mean anybody needs to go suck on eggs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, poor humanist fundamentalist Rob! Can&#039;t see the trees for the forest! </p>
<p>You sure make a lot of assumptions about my religion. For instance, that I believe in some 2000-year-old dead wiseguy. That I&#039;m anti-science. That I believe a bunch of dogmatic crap. Who are you talking to, really? It isn&#039;t me, and you didn&#039;t even take the time to look up Unitarian Universalism before you indulged in your tirade of ignorant assumptions. Or do you think it&#039;s my Zen Buddhist side that believes in the miracle power of some old teacher? </p>
<p>I do know there&#039;s something &#034;greater than myself.&#034; It&#039;s called the Milky Way. And that just one local example. </p>
<p>Your deeply fundamentalist belief in Science doesn&#039;t help me answer FOR MYSELF the meaning of my life. My answers don&#039;t help YOU either. But it doesn&#039;t mean anybody needs to go suck on eggs.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/09/28/all-career-questions-are-religious-in-nature/comment-page-2/#comment-212132</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/?p=3959#comment-212132</guid>
		<description>Hi Ellen,
Thanks for commenting, but I disagree.  (I ws trying to comment on the idea that religion makes you better at doing your job, and raised your ire by accident, but here we go since you asked...)

The fact that you can&#039;t find ways to make human interactions or organize outside of a religious framework, just means you haven&#039;t been looking hard enough.

I&#039;ve looked into all kinds of religions as an adult. Guess what, every one of them is dead right, and everyone who doesn&#039;t follow them is dead wrong.  I don&#039;t believe in Zues or Apollo, do you? Of course not, along with all the other thousands of gods you ignore-  and I just have one less god than you do.

The idea that religions answer the big questions in life is ridiculous in the extreme.  Science answers questions, admits when it gets those answers wrong and adjusts accordingly. Religion is dogma, that cannot grow. It is shit that is made up by people just like you with no evidence what-so-ever. If it had evidence your religion would be accepted by science, (and it would change everything we know about the world we live in) as it is religion is just left chasing the tail of science as it makes real effort to explain away religious superstition and make the gaps where your god is hiding smaller and smaller.  At least L Ron Hubard had the guts to make up his own religion.  I respect that more than just followng other poeple&#039;s bullshit. Thinking is hard.  And don&#039;t tell me your truth is more truthy because it was written 2000 years ago in your special word of god book, or that it&#039;s an ancient chinese secret, becasue neither of those consituet evidence based thinking.

You don&#039;t need to lobotomize yourself to join a religion, just stop thinking and replace it with faith. Materialism is a fact of life since this life is all we have and the bodies we live in until we die. Those are material things.  And if you are going to talk about life after death in any form, please provide proof and show your work. Don&#039;t quote other people&#039;s made up nonsense.

I don&#039;t expect any of this would change your mind since religion and spiritiual thinking innoculates you from ever having to examine the evidence or admit that you have been duped.  Which is what irritates me about religion, by the way. Along with the idea that you are not allowed to critisize it or examine it&#039;s failings.  If you have an odd historical theory, it can be discussed and debated.  If you have a new scientific theory, it can be studied or corroborated by independent testing.  If you&#039;ve made up a new sky god and a list of rules that he demands that humanity follow for their finite earthy existence or accept eternal consequences, well everyone will just have to keep quite about that and humor the shit out of you or their just being general and defensive about your baseless, factless, evidence poor, deeply felt conjecture. How rude of us all to question....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ellen,<br />
Thanks for commenting, but I disagree.  (I ws trying to comment on the idea that religion makes you better at doing your job, and raised your ire by accident, but here we go since you asked&#8230;)</p>
<p>The fact that you can&#039;t find ways to make human interactions or organize outside of a religious framework, just means you haven&#039;t been looking hard enough.</p>
<p>I&#039;ve looked into all kinds of religions as an adult. Guess what, every one of them is dead right, and everyone who doesn&#039;t follow them is dead wrong.  I don&#039;t believe in Zues or Apollo, do you? Of course not, along with all the other thousands of gods you ignore-  and I just have one less god than you do.</p>
<p>The idea that religions answer the big questions in life is ridiculous in the extreme.  Science answers questions, admits when it gets those answers wrong and adjusts accordingly. Religion is dogma, that cannot grow. It is shit that is made up by people just like you with no evidence what-so-ever. If it had evidence your religion would be accepted by science, (and it would change everything we know about the world we live in) as it is religion is just left chasing the tail of science as it makes real effort to explain away religious superstition and make the gaps where your god is hiding smaller and smaller.  At least L Ron Hubard had the guts to make up his own religion.  I respect that more than just followng other poeple&#039;s bullshit. Thinking is hard.  And don&#039;t tell me your truth is more truthy because it was written 2000 years ago in your special word of god book, or that it&#039;s an ancient chinese secret, becasue neither of those consituet evidence based thinking.</p>
<p>You don&#039;t need to lobotomize yourself to join a religion, just stop thinking and replace it with faith. Materialism is a fact of life since this life is all we have and the bodies we live in until we die. Those are material things.  And if you are going to talk about life after death in any form, please provide proof and show your work. Don&#039;t quote other people&#039;s made up nonsense.</p>
<p>I don&#039;t expect any of this would change your mind since religion and spiritiual thinking innoculates you from ever having to examine the evidence or admit that you have been duped.  Which is what irritates me about religion, by the way. Along with the idea that you are not allowed to critisize it or examine it&#039;s failings.  If you have an odd historical theory, it can be discussed and debated.  If you have a new scientific theory, it can be studied or corroborated by independent testing.  If you&#039;ve made up a new sky god and a list of rules that he demands that humanity follow for their finite earthy existence or accept eternal consequences, well everyone will just have to keep quite about that and humor the shit out of you or their just being general and defensive about your baseless, factless, evidence poor, deeply felt conjecture. How rude of us all to question&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: EllenSka</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/09/28/all-career-questions-are-religious-in-nature/comment-page-2/#comment-212121</link>
		<dc:creator>EllenSka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/?p=3959#comment-212121</guid>
		<description>Rob, &quot;religion is&quot; this-and-that is like saying &quot;women are&quot; followed by your stereotype of Woman And How She Is. May I venture to guess that you haven&#039;t checked out many (or any) actual religious communities as an adult? These raging generalities and defensiveness undermine your defense of the humanist perspective. 

I belong to one religious community (a Unitarian Universalist congregation), and also a spiritual community of Zen Buddhist practitioners. I have not found other communities in secular society that address the big questions about the meaning of life, how to conduct oneself ethically, and how to help the world through effective group action. 

You don&#039;t have to lobotomize yourself to join a religious community, and joining with others helps combat the narcissism and materialism that seem to constitute the de facto &quot;religious&quot; values of our consumerist society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob, &#034;religion is&#034; this-and-that is like saying &#034;women are&#034; followed by your stereotype of Woman And How She Is. May I venture to guess that you haven&#039;t checked out many (or any) actual religious communities as an adult? These raging generalities and defensiveness undermine your defense of the humanist perspective. </p>
<p>I belong to one religious community (a Unitarian Universalist congregation), and also a spiritual community of Zen Buddhist practitioners. I have not found other communities in secular society that address the big questions about the meaning of life, how to conduct oneself ethically, and how to help the world through effective group action. </p>
<p>You don&#039;t have to lobotomize yourself to join a religious community, and joining with others helps combat the narcissism and materialism that seem to constitute the de facto &#034;religious&#034; values of our consumerist society.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/09/28/all-career-questions-are-religious-in-nature/comment-page-2/#comment-212119</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/?p=3959#comment-212119</guid>
		<description>Your first post I read of yours that I entirely disagree with. Religion gives nothing and I&#039;m sorry to see you unintentionally (I guess) put down and leave out the non-religious, which is the fastest growing religious group in the US.  Religion doesn&#039;t teach anything, it usurps what was already in the human contract and claims it for itself.  Like walking into a wedding, picking up a gift off the gift table, and saying, &quot;Here, this ones from me.&quot; It&#039;s a cobbled together fantasy of fears, desires, stories and superstitions and I feel no need to base any part of my life on it, most importantly my work life. I guess this religious holiday of yours is just another exscuse to explain how special religious people are and how the rest of us can go suck rotten eggs…</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your first post I read of yours that I entirely disagree with. Religion gives nothing and I&#039;m sorry to see you unintentionally (I guess) put down and leave out the non-religious, which is the fastest growing religious group in the US.  Religion doesn&#039;t teach anything, it usurps what was already in the human contract and claims it for itself.  Like walking into a wedding, picking up a gift off the gift table, and saying, &#034;Here, this ones from me.&#034; It&#039;s a cobbled together fantasy of fears, desires, stories and superstitions and I feel no need to base any part of my life on it, most importantly my work life. I guess this religious holiday of yours is just another exscuse to explain how special religious people are and how the rest of us can go suck rotten eggs…</p>
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		<title>By: Owen Richard Kindig</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/09/28/all-career-questions-are-religious-in-nature/comment-page-2/#comment-208811</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen Richard Kindig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 06:14:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/?p=3959#comment-208811</guid>
		<description>Excellent post, Penelope.
Religion often embraces paradox. And one of the paradoxes of Jewish and Christian religion is that the practical guidelines of each faith tend to make people more successful in work and life... which in turn fosters self-reliance and a sense of superiority, and thus undermines the very qualities that brought them to the party!

Presbyterians started out otherworldly at the time of Franklin, and became the religion of the rich by the time of Lincoln; Methodists were the sect of the poor and the tradesman under Wesley, and became a denomination of the educated and successful by the time of Norman Vincent Peale. My forbears were Anabaptists who fled Calvin&#039;s Geneva for their lives... but today Baptists are stereotypical  of intolerance. (This hardening toward the poor is more true of Christians than Jews in my experience). 

Which I suppose is why Alexander Pope wrote, 

&lt;blockquote&gt;Go, like the Indian, in another life
expect thy dog, thy bottle, and thy wife;
As well as dream such trifles are assign&#039;d, 
As toys and empires, for a god-like mind.

Rewards, that either would to virtue bring 
No joy, or be destructive of the thing; 
How oft by these at sixty are undone 
The virtues of a saint at twenty-one! 

To whom can riches give repute or trust,
Content or pleasure, but the good and just? 
Judges and senates have been bought for gold;
Esteem and love were never to be sold.

Who noble ends by noble means obtains, 
Or failing, smiles in exile or in chains, 
Like good Aurelius let him reign, or bleed
Like Socrates, that man is great indeed.... 

What&#039;s fame? a fancied life in others&#039; breath, 
A thing beyond us, e&#039;en before our death... 
All that we feel of it begins and ends 
In the small circle of our foes or friends.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

(From the Essay on Man)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post, Penelope.<br />
Religion often embraces paradox. And one of the paradoxes of Jewish and Christian religion is that the practical guidelines of each faith tend to make people more successful in work and life&#8230; which in turn fosters self-reliance and a sense of superiority, and thus undermines the very qualities that brought them to the party!</p>
<p>Presbyterians started out otherworldly at the time of Franklin, and became the religion of the rich by the time of Lincoln; Methodists were the sect of the poor and the tradesman under Wesley, and became a denomination of the educated and successful by the time of Norman Vincent Peale. My forbears were Anabaptists who fled Calvin&#039;s Geneva for their lives&#8230; but today Baptists are stereotypical  of intolerance. (This hardening toward the poor is more true of Christians than Jews in my experience). </p>
<p>Which I suppose is why Alexander Pope wrote, </p>
<blockquote><p>Go, like the Indian, in another life<br />
expect thy dog, thy bottle, and thy wife;<br />
As well as dream such trifles are assign&#039;d,<br />
As toys and empires, for a god-like mind.</p>
<p>Rewards, that either would to virtue bring<br />
No joy, or be destructive of the thing;<br />
How oft by these at sixty are undone<br />
The virtues of a saint at twenty-one! </p>
<p>To whom can riches give repute or trust,<br />
Content or pleasure, but the good and just?<br />
Judges and senates have been bought for gold;<br />
Esteem and love were never to be sold.</p>
<p>Who noble ends by noble means obtains,<br />
Or failing, smiles in exile or in chains,<br />
Like good Aurelius let him reign, or bleed<br />
Like Socrates, that man is great indeed&#8230;. </p>
<p>What&#039;s fame? a fancied life in others&#039; breath,<br />
A thing beyond us, e&#039;en before our death&#8230;<br />
All that we feel of it begins and ends<br />
In the small circle of our foes or friends.</p></blockquote>
<p>(From the Essay on Man)</p>
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		<title>By: Shannon</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/09/28/all-career-questions-are-religious-in-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-207008</link>
		<dc:creator>Shannon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 20:21:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/?p=3959#comment-207008</guid>
		<description>What a biased load of sweeping generalizations. Is it too hard for the &quot;logical&quot; mind to grasp that not all churches are the same? Even within the realm of Christianity, there is a big difference between, say, Episcopalians and fundamentalists. In my Catholic church, for example, there are a number of openly gay couples, and I&#039;ve even spoken to a few parishoners about my abortion. Guess what? They didn&#039;t lynch me. The thing is, church is made up of people. It&#039;s not the building, not the text, not the rules. It&#039;s the people. And it&#039;s sad that so many intelligent people feel they have to reject religion because they disagree with these accessories. God is love. No one is excluded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a biased load of sweeping generalizations. Is it too hard for the &#034;logical&#034; mind to grasp that not all churches are the same? Even within the realm of Christianity, there is a big difference between, say, Episcopalians and fundamentalists. In my Catholic church, for example, there are a number of openly gay couples, and I&#039;ve even spoken to a few parishoners about my abortion. Guess what? They didn&#039;t lynch me. The thing is, church is made up of people. It&#039;s not the building, not the text, not the rules. It&#039;s the people. And it&#039;s sad that so many intelligent people feel they have to reject religion because they disagree with these accessories. God is love. No one is excluded.</p>
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