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	<title>Comments on: Seven reasons why graduate school is outdated</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/</link>
	<description>Advice at the intersection of work and life</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 13:32:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: KarmaMuse</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/comment-page-2/#comment-262751</link>
		<dc:creator>KarmaMuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 23:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/#comment-262751</guid>
		<description>I would like the author to talk with Prof. Amy Chua. I believe that a recording of their conversation would be most entertaining.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like the author to talk with Prof. Amy Chua. I believe that a recording of their conversation would be most entertaining.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: 2352ta3g54a3qggq3g</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/comment-page-2/#comment-261095</link>
		<dc:creator>2352ta3g54a3qggq3g</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2011 20:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/#comment-261095</guid>
		<description>you sound stupid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you sound stupid.</p>
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		<title>By: Why Startups Shouldn’t Hire People With Graduate Degrees &#171; route128 Capital</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/comment-page-2/#comment-260229</link>
		<dc:creator>Why Startups Shouldn’t Hire People With Graduate Degrees &#171; route128 Capital</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Sep 2011 00:27:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/#comment-260229</guid>
		<description>[...] (Note: This analysis comes from writers at the Chronicle for Higher Education.) This is because the grad school model is generally outdated for today’s workforce, and high performers see this before they enroll. But people who are scared of trying to hold their [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (Note: This analysis comes from writers at the Chronicle for Higher Education.) This is because the grad school model is generally outdated for today’s workforce, and high performers see this before they enroll. But people who are scared of trying to hold their [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Paulherman777</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/comment-page-2/#comment-260163</link>
		<dc:creator>Paulherman777</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 07:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/#comment-260163</guid>
		<description>

Graduate
school makes sense and even essential if you are working in certain disciplines
i.e. Engineer, doctor lawyer etc However it makes no sense for many other
professions that should not require a degree in the first place let alone anything
else. The only reason they ask for a degree is because too many people have them.
What I find hilarious but at the same time disturbing is those that wish to
further themselves in the field of finance by going back to school to do an
MBA! apparently these days ibanks which are huge business failures themselves
like graduate degrees to enter low level positions, yet the work itself could
be done by a reasonable bright 18 year old without any degree. A-levels would
more than suffice. The world has truly gone mad and these graduate degrees in
business are more of a scam then ever. I constantly receive spam emails from Stanford
university and many others about the benefits of gaining a masters degree from
there institution. People will eventually wake up to this I&#039;m sure, but for god
sake if you are thinking of embarking on one of these unnecessarily expensive
and ultimately worthless degree (particularly if its business related one)
think long and hard about you motivations and ask why am I doing this? In the
business world academic qualifications are and should only be of secondary
importance to your actual experience.  The
real key is if  you prove you can save
money and/or make money for a company well your qualifications are irrelevant.
Of course a bit of networking wouldn’t go a miss, but paying $100k to be in
touch with the alumini at these so called prestigious business schools is a
very expensive way to build a network.  If
you are good at what you do you will develop a powerful network at little or no
cost and actually earn money whilst doing so. I have hired and fired business
graduates over the years and whilst I don’t wish to upset anybody currently
studying for an MBA or some MSc in finance please see the wood through the
trees before getting into debt or paying out all that money from you hard
earned savings. I graduated with Maters in Mathematics and honestly it was not
worth anymore then my Undergraduate degree but cost me next to nothing because
back I am talking about 25 years ago.  I
learnt business by working in business and no degree has taught me how to sell,
negotiate, build relationships, close business etc. 


 


Success
in business is about hard work and plenty of common sense which I find most
graduates lack along with a good dose of lateral thinking not text book thinking.
I have read all the business books I care to read and now know what is taught
at some of the main business schools here in London and the US. I was intrigued
to find out what my fresh hires had learnt and why they thought they could
demand higher entry salaried then someone with just a undergraduate degree. Do
you own research and make you mind up and see if you feel the content of what
you learn justifies the cost. 


 


This
is based on my broad experience as a MD of a well known financial firm based in
London. 


 


 


Many
younger graduates who I’ve asked why they chose to follow a particular path
both academically and commercially often seemed to have been blinded by perceived
prestige. It is very concerning that intelligent young and even experienced people
end up getting into debt to get a piece of paper that seems prestigious. It
should also be noted that many of the financial institution are well connected
to business schools and as such effectively saying you need to go and pay a lot
of money to get that qualification so that we would offer you a position as a
low level employee of our bank. Why would anyone want to do that? Well they are
sold on the fact the bank is prestigious and hence they need to obtain a
prestigious degree from a prestigious University. It is all very silly but this
is the way things have gone and more so explains a lot about the state of the
world we live in today. I am so glad I be retiring in a few years. Here is a
quote from Paul Graham.  


 


“Prestige
is especially dangerous to the ambitious. If you want to make ambitious people
waste their time on errands, the way to do it is to bait the hook with prestige.


 


“The
reason the young care so much about prestige is that the people they want to
impress are not very discerning” 


</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Graduate<br />
school makes sense and even essential if you are working in certain disciplines<br />
i.e. Engineer, doctor lawyer etc However it makes no sense for many other<br />
professions that should not require a degree in the first place let alone anything<br />
else. The only reason they ask for a degree is because too many people have them.<br />
What I find hilarious but at the same time disturbing is those that wish to<br />
further themselves in the field of finance by going back to school to do an<br />
MBA! apparently these days ibanks which are huge business failures themselves<br />
like graduate degrees to enter low level positions, yet the work itself could<br />
be done by a reasonable bright 18 year old without any degree. A-levels would<br />
more than suffice. The world has truly gone mad and these graduate degrees in<br />
business are more of a scam then ever. I constantly receive spam emails from Stanford<br />
university and many others about the benefits of gaining a masters degree from<br />
there institution. People will eventually wake up to this I&#039;m sure, but for god<br />
sake if you are thinking of embarking on one of these unnecessarily expensive<br />
and ultimately worthless degree (particularly if its business related one)<br />
think long and hard about you motivations and ask why am I doing this? In the<br />
business world academic qualifications are and should only be of secondary<br />
importance to your actual experience.  The<br />
real key is if  you prove you can save<br />
money and/or make money for a company well your qualifications are irrelevant.<br />
Of course a bit of networking wouldn’t go a miss, but paying $100k to be in<br />
touch with the alumini at these so called prestigious business schools is a<br />
very expensive way to build a network.  If<br />
you are good at what you do you will develop a powerful network at little or no<br />
cost and actually earn money whilst doing so. I have hired and fired business<br />
graduates over the years and whilst I don’t wish to upset anybody currently<br />
studying for an MBA or some MSc in finance please see the wood through the<br />
trees before getting into debt or paying out all that money from you hard<br />
earned savings. I graduated with Maters in Mathematics and honestly it was not<br />
worth anymore then my Undergraduate degree but cost me next to nothing because<br />
back I am talking about 25 years ago.  I<br />
learnt business by working in business and no degree has taught me how to sell,<br />
negotiate, build relationships, close business etc. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Success<br />
in business is about hard work and plenty of common sense which I find most<br />
graduates lack along with a good dose of lateral thinking not text book thinking.<br />
I have read all the business books I care to read and now know what is taught<br />
at some of the main business schools here in London and the US. I was intrigued<br />
to find out what my fresh hires had learnt and why they thought they could<br />
demand higher entry salaried then someone with just a undergraduate degree. Do<br />
you own research and make you mind up and see if you feel the content of what<br />
you learn justifies the cost. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>This<br />
is based on my broad experience as a MD of a well known financial firm based in<br />
London. </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Many<br />
younger graduates who I’ve asked why they chose to follow a particular path<br />
both academically and commercially often seemed to have been blinded by perceived<br />
prestige. It is very concerning that intelligent young and even experienced people<br />
end up getting into debt to get a piece of paper that seems prestigious. It<br />
should also be noted that many of the financial institution are well connected<br />
to business schools and as such effectively saying you need to go and pay a lot<br />
of money to get that qualification so that we would offer you a position as a<br />
low level employee of our bank. Why would anyone want to do that? Well they are<br />
sold on the fact the bank is prestigious and hence they need to obtain a<br />
prestigious degree from a prestigious University. It is all very silly but this<br />
is the way things have gone and more so explains a lot about the state of the<br />
world we live in today. I am so glad I be retiring in a few years. Here is a<br />
quote from Paul Graham.  </p>
<p> </p>
<p>“Prestige<br />
is especially dangerous to the ambitious. If you want to make ambitious people<br />
waste their time on errands, the way to do it is to bait the hook with prestige.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>“The<br />
reason the young care so much about prestige is that the people they want to<br />
impress are not very discerning”</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/comment-page-2/#comment-259260</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 03:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/#comment-259260</guid>
		<description>Most of this is only partially accurate.

I am going to graduate school after taking two years to work and figure out what I&#039;m doing. I found that the only job I really wanted to do required graduate school.

Education is never a waste of time.

We need a more educated society, not less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of this is only partially accurate.</p>
<p>I am going to graduate school after taking two years to work and figure out what I&#039;m doing. I found that the only job I really wanted to do required graduate school.</p>
<p>Education is never a waste of time.</p>
<p>We need a more educated society, not less.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/comment-page-2/#comment-258903</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2011 15:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/#comment-258903</guid>
		<description>Hi Penelope,

If you read this, can you please delete my comment above? (and this one). There are too many mistakes in it. Thank you in advance... 

Ps. A 5 minutes regret/editing function on comments would be a great feature. Some blogs or forums* have that; so comments can be edited up to 5 minutes** after being posted, and then not any more. 

*don&#039;t remember where I have seen it
**just an example - it may be 3 or 10 minutes</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Penelope,</p>
<p>If you read this, can you please delete my comment above? (and this one). There are too many mistakes in it. Thank you in advance&#8230; </p>
<p>Ps. A 5 minutes regret/editing function on comments would be a great feature. Some blogs or forums* have that; so comments can be edited up to 5 minutes** after being posted, and then not any more. </p>
<p>*don&#039;t remember where I have seen it<br />
**just an example &#8211; it may be 3 or 10 minutes</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/comment-page-2/#comment-258891</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/#comment-258891</guid>
		<description>Ps... 

Notwithstanding the question about the usefulness of a higher degree for employability: the in-depth concentration and discipline demanded by a university degree does have value in itself, on a human level. 

I&#039;ve had subjects that forced me to change the way I think and thereby changed my life (for example Cultural Sociology, Statistics, and Organisation) - and subjects that enable me to better understand the way the world works much better (e.g. economics, organisation and international business). 

Even if never using the degree in a suitable role, I think the educational level of citizens does matter for a society. Many aspects of the world appears to be counter-intuitive at first (like statistical models) and in order to understand them it is necessary to disconnect from the world for a while and focus intensively on changing perspective - that won&#039;t happen with a 9-5 job. People impact their surroundings through their decisions and interaction with other people, relationships and parenthood, so an education is not just an investment in one person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ps&#8230; </p>
<p>Notwithstanding the question about the usefulness of a higher degree for employability: the in-depth concentration and discipline demanded by a university degree does have value in itself, on a human level. </p>
<p>I&#039;ve had subjects that forced me to change the way I think and thereby changed my life (for example Cultural Sociology, Statistics, and Organisation) &#8211; and subjects that enable me to better understand the way the world works much better (e.g. economics, organisation and international business). </p>
<p>Even if never using the degree in a suitable role, I think the educational level of citizens does matter for a society. Many aspects of the world appears to be counter-intuitive at first (like statistical models) and in order to understand them it is necessary to disconnect from the world for a while and focus intensively on changing perspective &#8211; that won&#039;t happen with a 9-5 job. People impact their surroundings through their decisions and interaction with other people, relationships and parenthood, so an education is not just an investment in one person.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/comment-page-2/#comment-258890</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2011 12:38:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/#comment-258890</guid>
		<description>By the way: in Korea prospective employers zealously peruse your degree, but not only that: they will also want to know about your parents&#039; degrees. If your parents are uneducated, then good luck getting the job (according to my Korean friend).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way: in Korea prospective employers zealously peruse your degree, but not only that: they will also want to know about your parents&#039; degrees. If your parents are uneducated, then good luck getting the job (according to my Korean friend).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/comment-page-2/#comment-258888</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2011 12:26:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/#comment-258888</guid>
		<description>Just came to think: while it applies to the US and the country where we live now, in countries where a high education is the norm (for example Korea and the Scandinavian countries) you&#039;d be stuck without a degree. Not that a high education guarantees you a job; but not having one prevents you from getting it.

Now when I come to think, in my home country you can&#039;t even buy a farm without having a farming degree. Or spray the fields with pesticides (you need a spraying certificate to do that... which is part of the farming degree).

Thanks for a good blog, by the way... it is very entertaining and useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just came to think: while it applies to the US and the country where we live now, in countries where a high education is the norm (for example Korea and the Scandinavian countries) you&#039;d be stuck without a degree. Not that a high education guarantees you a job; but not having one prevents you from getting it.</p>
<p>Now when I come to think, in my home country you can&#039;t even buy a farm without having a farming degree. Or spray the fields with pesticides (you need a spraying certificate to do that&#8230; which is part of the farming degree).</p>
<p>Thanks for a good blog, by the way&#8230; it is very entertaining and useful.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/comment-page-2/#comment-258887</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2011 12:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/#comment-258887</guid>
		<description>I think this is so very right:

&lt;blockquote&gt;If you don&#039;t actually use your graduate degree, you look unemployable. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

and:

&lt;blockquote&gt;No employer likes to hire from the reject pile, and no employer wants to be second choice.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;ve got a masters degree in business/marketing not out of interest but because I thought that a generalist business degree would make me employable in any industry. Coming from a country where the state sponsors all higher education plus living costs for students*, my debt is far below $80,000 and would have been zero had I not studied abroad. 

However, I think it is right that a degree can be a risk in itself, particularly in countries where a high education is not standard. I went to university at 35+ to break out of being stuck in low level menial jobs which paid bad, were insecure and uninteresting and heavily infested with social intrigues and politics (probably most workplaces are, except for the ones without people;-) and I have good intellectual abilities, so why not.

So I did a BA in business. The master (abroad), also in business, was partly a way to obtain visa and eventually secure permanent residency in the lovely country where we now live. Business/commerce/marketing seemed the safest ~ most employable line of study. There were also many more scholarships available for business studies abroad than any other field of study, due to my home country&#039;s great appetite for global competitiveness. 

However, as for employability: experience, sociability, connections, initiative and personality match drive employability... if there are shortcomings on those points, then a degree won&#039;t help. 

Worse yet:  The combination of a high degree and a big gap in the resume looks particularly bad, because it doesn&#039;t make sense to invest in an education and then not use it... except if the person is unemployable. 

Plus, while the degree won&#039;t give access to a higher level job without relevant experience, it can block the access to entry level positions... because a high degree signals high ambition, and just like Penelope said: employers don&#039;t like to be second choice. 




*Courtesy of the Scandinavian welfare model and its tax payers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is so very right:</p>
<blockquote><p>If you don&#039;t actually use your graduate degree, you look unemployable. </p></blockquote>
<p>and:</p>
<blockquote><p>No employer likes to hire from the reject pile, and no employer wants to be second choice.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#039;ve got a masters degree in business/marketing not out of interest but because I thought that a generalist business degree would make me employable in any industry. Coming from a country where the state sponsors all higher education plus living costs for students*, my debt is far below $80,000 and would have been zero had I not studied abroad. </p>
<p>However, I think it is right that a degree can be a risk in itself, particularly in countries where a high education is not standard. I went to university at 35+ to break out of being stuck in low level menial jobs which paid bad, were insecure and uninteresting and heavily infested with social intrigues and politics (probably most workplaces are, except for the ones without people;-) and I have good intellectual abilities, so why not.</p>
<p>So I did a BA in business. The master (abroad), also in business, was partly a way to obtain visa and eventually secure permanent residency in the lovely country where we now live. Business/commerce/marketing seemed the safest ~ most employable line of study. There were also many more scholarships available for business studies abroad than any other field of study, due to my home country&#039;s great appetite for global competitiveness. </p>
<p>However, as for employability: experience, sociability, connections, initiative and personality match drive employability&#8230; if there are shortcomings on those points, then a degree won&#039;t help. </p>
<p>Worse yet:  The combination of a high degree and a big gap in the resume looks particularly bad, because it doesn&#039;t make sense to invest in an education and then not use it&#8230; except if the person is unemployable. </p>
<p>Plus, while the degree won&#039;t give access to a higher level job without relevant experience, it can block the access to entry level positions&#8230; because a high degree signals high ambition, and just like Penelope said: employers don&#039;t like to be second choice. </p>
<p>*Courtesy of the Scandinavian welfare model and its tax payers.</p>
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