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	<title>Comments on: Yahoo column: Make training a priority</title>
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	<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/</link>
	<description>Advice at the intersection of work and life</description>
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		<title>By: 50-something</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/comment-page-1/#comment-133599</link>
		<dc:creator>50-something</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:55:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/#comment-133599</guid>
		<description>Penelope,
How refreshing to read your blog for the first time.  Clearly, as a &quot;Boomer&quot; your views are quite provocative.  Never in my long career did anyone ever suggest that passing on promotions was the way to go.  Nor was there much mention of customizing jobs to meet my needs.  I had a knack for it and did change jobs every 3-5 years, mostly because better opportunities existed elsewhere and rising through the ranks by staying where you were was a near impossibility.  

I don&#039;t recall any employer changing anything of significance  to meet the changing professional goals of employees.  If you didn&#039;t like the way things were, the exits were clearly marked.  There was always another &quot;Boomer&quot; to replace you.  

The benefits of change outweighed the stressors for me - but that was just how I was wired.  My intellectual curiosity fueled my continued education and my people skills opened doors.  Maybe I was ahead of my time but I agree with your advice.  Staying put doesn&#039;t always mean security - sometimes just ulcers, and promotions can derail you - think teachers who love the students and excel in the classroom suddenly being promoted to administrators managing bus schedules and state test scores. 

Do you remember that old book &quot;The Peter Principle&quot;?  If you are under 50 then probably not.  The notion of someone being promoted beyond their level of competence is not a new one...but beyond their level of passion? Well, perhaps we have a new twist!  Thanks for your blog!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Penelope,<br />
How refreshing to read your blog for the first time.  Clearly, as a &#034;Boomer&#034; your views are quite provocative.  Never in my long career did anyone ever suggest that passing on promotions was the way to go.  Nor was there much mention of customizing jobs to meet my needs.  I had a knack for it and did change jobs every 3-5 years, mostly because better opportunities existed elsewhere and rising through the ranks by staying where you were was a near impossibility.  </p>
<p>I don&#039;t recall any employer changing anything of significance  to meet the changing professional goals of employees.  If you didn&#039;t like the way things were, the exits were clearly marked.  There was always another &#034;Boomer&#034; to replace you.  </p>
<p>The benefits of change outweighed the stressors for me &#8211; but that was just how I was wired.  My intellectual curiosity fueled my continued education and my people skills opened doors.  Maybe I was ahead of my time but I agree with your advice.  Staying put doesn&#039;t always mean security &#8211; sometimes just ulcers, and promotions can derail you &#8211; think teachers who love the students and excel in the classroom suddenly being promoted to administrators managing bus schedules and state test scores. </p>
<p>Do you remember that old book &#034;The Peter Principle&#034;?  If you are under 50 then probably not.  The notion of someone being promoted beyond their level of competence is not a new one&#8230;but beyond their level of passion? Well, perhaps we have a new twist!  Thanks for your blog!</p>
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		<title>By: karen m</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/comment-page-1/#comment-123495</link>
		<dc:creator>karen m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 01:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/#comment-123495</guid>
		<description>Guys, sorry for the multiple posts but Pirate Jo, your post is Exactly why sometimes I feel as though I have been dragged through the Sewer, working in the recruiting industry.

The Main reason that there are shoddy recruiters out there is due to what many perceive as &quot;easy big bucks&quot; in an industry that has NO barrier to entry in Most States.. 

Unfortunately many in this industry come in Not even being aware of the Many regulations that surround the industry, and even more are not even aware that the employment Laws and Regulations (State and/or Federal) even apply to them as recruiters.. they believe that they are immune to the process... Thus, they enter, they go to sites where the blind teach the blind, how to lie, not give a darn, and not be aware of their own Moral and Personal Obligations to the candidate or company.

Would I enjoy seeing some sort of regulation, or at least self regulation regarding this industry? You BET!  What we do affect the lives of individuals and companies DAY IN and DAY OUT, and we should be Held Accountable for our actions, and the harm we cause to individuals.

Recruiters Should be honest and aware of all issues occuring w/in a Client&#039;s corporation, and Yes they should also be honest.  

I Am Not perfect, as I mentioned in my link - I am human, but I do try to live by the sword of which I speak.  Every day I try to remember that You, the person I am working with could be Me, my son/daughter/husband.. and I try to do my best to make sure I treat you as I would want them to be treated..  Again, I am NOT perfect, but I am Willing to learn everyday from my mistakes, especially if they are brought to my attention.. 

Unfortunately, there are too many recruiters whose one and only obligation is to the Almighty Dollar.. 

The Suggestions I offered with that link are ways that I believe could help you the candidate to protect yourself from this shoddy behavior.. 

I do want to say One important thing.. THERE ARE good recruiters out there, they may be few and far apart, but there really are some awesome people who really care about helping improve the quality of someone&#039;s life - I have been blessed to know a few of them.. so I can attest for them first hand.. 

Best of luck to you all.. 
Karen Mattonen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guys, sorry for the multiple posts but Pirate Jo, your post is Exactly why sometimes I feel as though I have been dragged through the Sewer, working in the recruiting industry.</p>
<p>The Main reason that there are shoddy recruiters out there is due to what many perceive as &#034;easy big bucks&#034; in an industry that has NO barrier to entry in Most States.. </p>
<p>Unfortunately many in this industry come in Not even being aware of the Many regulations that surround the industry, and even more are not even aware that the employment Laws and Regulations (State and/or Federal) even apply to them as recruiters.. they believe that they are immune to the process&#8230; Thus, they enter, they go to sites where the blind teach the blind, how to lie, not give a darn, and not be aware of their own Moral and Personal Obligations to the candidate or company.</p>
<p>Would I enjoy seeing some sort of regulation, or at least self regulation regarding this industry? You BET!  What we do affect the lives of individuals and companies DAY IN and DAY OUT, and we should be Held Accountable for our actions, and the harm we cause to individuals.</p>
<p>Recruiters Should be honest and aware of all issues occuring w/in a Client&#039;s corporation, and Yes they should also be honest.  </p>
<p>I Am Not perfect, as I mentioned in my link &#8211; I am human, but I do try to live by the sword of which I speak.  Every day I try to remember that You, the person I am working with could be Me, my son/daughter/husband.. and I try to do my best to make sure I treat you as I would want them to be treated..  Again, I am NOT perfect, but I am Willing to learn everyday from my mistakes, especially if they are brought to my attention.. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, there are too many recruiters whose one and only obligation is to the Almighty Dollar.. </p>
<p>The Suggestions I offered with that link are ways that I believe could help you the candidate to protect yourself from this shoddy behavior.. </p>
<p>I do want to say One important thing.. THERE ARE good recruiters out there, they may be few and far apart, but there really are some awesome people who really care about helping improve the quality of someone&#039;s life &#8211; I have been blessed to know a few of them.. so I can attest for them first hand.. </p>
<p>Best of luck to you all..<br />
Karen Mattonen</p>
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		<title>By: Pirate Jo</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/comment-page-1/#comment-123489</link>
		<dc:creator>Pirate Jo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 00:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/#comment-123489</guid>
		<description>Joe G, I gotta chime in and agree with you about recruiters, although I&#039;ll make an exception for Karen, who seems pretty nice.  ;-)

I got hosed by a recruiter once.  The client company had a notoriously awful manager working there, and the entire department of 25 people turned over about every two years.  I didn&#039;t report directly to this person, but my bosses all did, and they turned over every six months.  I was there 18 months and had three bosses.  Two of them were reduced to tears frequently, and one simply walked out of the job with no notice.

This manager was a complete psycho.  She did a lot of screaming and yelling - you could count on a complete meltdown about once a week.  I sat near her office, and every time the screeching tirades started, I just sat there and was thankful it wasn&#039;t me getting it.  (Actually, she only blew up at me once - I learned early to keep my head down and not get noticed.)  Lots of snotty, completely counter-productive and unnecessarily sarcastic comments, too.

She could go off on anyone - someone in our department, someone in another department, an auditor, a vendor, or someone in her family.  She would simply go nuts.  Really, most 10-year-olds have more control over their emotions, and if you are completely losing it that often, get medicated for chrissake.  Totally unprofessional.  The thing she enjoyed most was ripping someone to shreds in front of an audience.  She LOVED to publicly humiliate someone.

The recruiter made great money on this human gristmill, since every time a position opened up they could count on another nice big fee to fill it - again and again and again.  As long as the person stayed there in hell for six months, the recruiter got to keep its fee.  And that usually worked, if only barely.  It took my bosses about two months to realize they&#039;d just made the biggest career mistake of their lives, and another four months to find a new job.  With all those positions turning over so frequently, this company was a very nice source of revenue for the recruiter indeed.

The karma blew back in a great way, though.  The last time I heard Godzilla start screaming into the phone, the person she was screaming at was the very same person who placed me there.  She made the chick CRY!  I almost felt sorry for her - almost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe G, I gotta chime in and agree with you about recruiters, although I&#039;ll make an exception for Karen, who seems pretty nice.  ;-)</p>
<p>I got hosed by a recruiter once.  The client company had a notoriously awful manager working there, and the entire department of 25 people turned over about every two years.  I didn&#039;t report directly to this person, but my bosses all did, and they turned over every six months.  I was there 18 months and had three bosses.  Two of them were reduced to tears frequently, and one simply walked out of the job with no notice.</p>
<p>This manager was a complete psycho.  She did a lot of screaming and yelling &#8211; you could count on a complete meltdown about once a week.  I sat near her office, and every time the screeching tirades started, I just sat there and was thankful it wasn&#039;t me getting it.  (Actually, she only blew up at me once &#8211; I learned early to keep my head down and not get noticed.)  Lots of snotty, completely counter-productive and unnecessarily sarcastic comments, too.</p>
<p>She could go off on anyone &#8211; someone in our department, someone in another department, an auditor, a vendor, or someone in her family.  She would simply go nuts.  Really, most 10-year-olds have more control over their emotions, and if you are completely losing it that often, get medicated for chrissake.  Totally unprofessional.  The thing she enjoyed most was ripping someone to shreds in front of an audience.  She LOVED to publicly humiliate someone.</p>
<p>The recruiter made great money on this human gristmill, since every time a position opened up they could count on another nice big fee to fill it &#8211; again and again and again.  As long as the person stayed there in hell for six months, the recruiter got to keep its fee.  And that usually worked, if only barely.  It took my bosses about two months to realize they&#039;d just made the biggest career mistake of their lives, and another four months to find a new job.  With all those positions turning over so frequently, this company was a very nice source of revenue for the recruiter indeed.</p>
<p>The karma blew back in a great way, though.  The last time I heard Godzilla start screaming into the phone, the person she was screaming at was the very same person who placed me there.  She made the chick CRY!  I almost felt sorry for her &#8211; almost.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe G</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/comment-page-1/#comment-122093</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/#comment-122093</guid>
		<description>Karen,

Thanks for the link and information. I find that it&#039;s often tight line to walk between serving my employer&#039;s needs and treating my employees in an ethical fashion. I have always treated everyone professionally and ethically and I have been penalized for doing so. That&#039;s life....

Take care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen,</p>
<p>Thanks for the link and information. I find that it&#039;s often tight line to walk between serving my employer&#039;s needs and treating my employees in an ethical fashion. I have always treated everyone professionally and ethically and I have been penalized for doing so. That&#039;s life&#8230;.</p>
<p>Take care.</p>
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		<title>By: karen mattonen</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/comment-page-1/#comment-122090</link>
		<dc:creator>karen mattonen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:10:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/#comment-122090</guid>
		<description>Work Long Hours for free -- I suggest you contact the Local Department of Labor, AND the IRS -- unfortunately too many companies MisClassify their employees, and thankfully there is no such thing as Slave Labor in America -- well there is, as many try to get away with it.. but YES the laws do protect you.. and Don&#039;t Worry about your reputation, as you can request a GAG order, and of course Mediation, which is how 80+ Percent of these &quot;cases&quot; are settled..
Karen..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Work Long Hours for free &#8212; I suggest you contact the Local Department of Labor, AND the IRS &#8212; unfortunately too many companies MisClassify their employees, and thankfully there is no such thing as Slave Labor in America &#8212; well there is, as many try to get away with it.. but YES the laws do protect you.. and Don&#039;t Worry about your reputation, as you can request a GAG order, and of course Mediation, which is how 80+ Percent of these &#034;cases&#034; are settled..<br />
Karen..</p>
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		<title>By: karen mattonen</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/comment-page-1/#comment-122087</link>
		<dc:creator>karen mattonen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:07:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/#comment-122087</guid>
		<description>Joe,
that was a pretty honest response.. Yes, there are pretty shoddy recruiters out there.. and it is indeed an industry that could use some cleaning up..  
I suggest that future candidates should really read the following before working with recruiters http://www.acssearch.com/candidaterights/

I do wish you the best with your career, and hopefully to find the company that you can find stability.  Unfortunately it may be &quot;old school&quot; and conventional, but it is a sad reality that no matter the Generation -- and yes, we Generation X&#039;rs even tried to fight the institutional way of thinking.. (ie Google, Yahoo, and a few others are founded by x&#039;rs) we unfortunately  couldn&#039;t beat the system, no matter how hard we tried.. 

Karen..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,<br />
that was a pretty honest response.. Yes, there are pretty shoddy recruiters out there.. and it is indeed an industry that could use some cleaning up..<br />
I suggest that future candidates should really read the following before working with recruiters <a href="http://www.acssearch.com/candidaterights/" rel="nofollow">http://www.acssearch.com/candidaterights/</a></p>
<p>I do wish you the best with your career, and hopefully to find the company that you can find stability.  Unfortunately it may be &#034;old school&#034; and conventional, but it is a sad reality that no matter the Generation &#8212; and yes, we Generation X&#039;rs even tried to fight the institutional way of thinking.. (ie Google, Yahoo, and a few others are founded by x&#039;rs) we unfortunately  couldn&#039;t beat the system, no matter how hard we tried.. </p>
<p>Karen..</p>
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		<title>By: Joe G</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/comment-page-1/#comment-122084</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/#comment-122084</guid>
		<description>Almost forgot.......most of us in Corp Finance receive very little training. However, I&#039;m sure there might be some exceptions. We generally learn as we go. So, there is very little upfront cost in training. Your Customer Service Rep example doesn&#039;t fly in my field. It&#039;s all about finding the next sucker who will work longer hours for free in a horrible work environment.

I think I should start a labor union for white collar professionals! Anyone second this notion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Almost forgot&#8230;&#8230;.most of us in Corp Finance receive very little training. However, I&#039;m sure there might be some exceptions. We generally learn as we go. So, there is very little upfront cost in training. Your Customer Service Rep example doesn&#039;t fly in my field. It&#039;s all about finding the next sucker who will work longer hours for free in a horrible work environment.</p>
<p>I think I should start a labor union for white collar professionals! Anyone second this notion?</p>
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		<title>By: Joe G</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/comment-page-1/#comment-122080</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 03:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/#comment-122080</guid>
		<description>Karen,

Thanks for your comments. Of course, you are correct in stating that recruiters have to play by the rules and we are all accountable for our actions. Obviously it&#039;s easy to take the easy path in this world. I take full accountability for all of my actions. Unfortunately, I can not control the instability of various companies within our current &quot;unregulated capitalistic&quot; environment. I had to endure four job eliminations due to an acquisition, office closure, and reorganization. This forced me to find other positions outside those companies. One move early in my career was due to career advancement. So, I had to make most of these moves to stay employed and support my family. I&#039;ve worked in the Senior Mgt ranks in the Fortune 100 world for several years now and I know quite well how &quot;we&quot; treat &quot;human resources.&quot;

As for my sour comment on recruiters, I&#039;ve discovered that many are unethical and do withhold critical information from candidates. I&#039;m sure there are some good ones out there and I hope that you are one of the more ethical ones. 

Good luck to you...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments. Of course, you are correct in stating that recruiters have to play by the rules and we are all accountable for our actions. Obviously it&#039;s easy to take the easy path in this world. I take full accountability for all of my actions. Unfortunately, I can not control the instability of various companies within our current &#034;unregulated capitalistic&#034; environment. I had to endure four job eliminations due to an acquisition, office closure, and reorganization. This forced me to find other positions outside those companies. One move early in my career was due to career advancement. So, I had to make most of these moves to stay employed and support my family. I&#039;ve worked in the Senior Mgt ranks in the Fortune 100 world for several years now and I know quite well how &#034;we&#034; treat &#034;human resources.&#034;</p>
<p>As for my sour comment on recruiters, I&#039;ve discovered that many are unethical and do withhold critical information from candidates. I&#039;m sure there are some good ones out there and I hope that you are one of the more ethical ones. </p>
<p>Good luck to you&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: karen mattonen</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/comment-page-1/#comment-122054</link>
		<dc:creator>karen mattonen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 03:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/#comment-122054</guid>
		<description>Joe G - You ever watch a pretty popular MTV show called the Hills?  In the Show, the Heroine Lauren found out the very Hard way what &quot;living the American Dream&quot; can do to hamper one&#039;s career.  See, she chose her boyfriend, over going to the On the Job Training/Internship in France..  Kiddo, that training that you got on the job, cost that company a pretty penny..

You say that Recruiters and H.R have an easy job? Really? so why are so many Not successful at it?  Considering the Pay we make.. why aren&#039;t more dong it, and doing it well...  if it were so Easy.. I challenge you to try this so &quot;easy&quot; job.. 

We (the recruiters) are not the ones who set the rules.. the Managers do.. we abide by them.. but we also understand Why the clients Do want job stability.. and based upon your comment - corporate Finance 10 Years w/ 5 Managers?? that averages a career Change every two years.. But, I guess it is always the bosses fault that you left huh??? You had NOTHING to do with the fact that you no longer worked at these 5 different companies??

I say, no wonder you find problems with H.R and Recruiters.. Aw Shucks, I guess I would think We sucked too, when we find it difficult to believe that you would be worth the investment...

FYI, the Average Customer Service Rep (telephone) costs a company on Average 60k the first 3-6 mths.. (training and support)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe G &#8211; You ever watch a pretty popular MTV show called the Hills?  In the Show, the Heroine Lauren found out the very Hard way what &#034;living the American Dream&#034; can do to hamper one&#039;s career.  See, she chose her boyfriend, over going to the On the Job Training/Internship in France..  Kiddo, that training that you got on the job, cost that company a pretty penny..</p>
<p>You say that Recruiters and H.R have an easy job? Really? so why are so many Not successful at it?  Considering the Pay we make.. why aren&#039;t more dong it, and doing it well&#8230;  if it were so Easy.. I challenge you to try this so &#034;easy&#034; job.. </p>
<p>We (the recruiters) are not the ones who set the rules.. the Managers do.. we abide by them.. but we also understand Why the clients Do want job stability.. and based upon your comment &#8211; corporate Finance 10 Years w/ 5 Managers?? that averages a career Change every two years.. But, I guess it is always the bosses fault that you left huh??? You had NOTHING to do with the fact that you no longer worked at these 5 different companies??</p>
<p>I say, no wonder you find problems with H.R and Recruiters.. Aw Shucks, I guess I would think We sucked too, when we find it difficult to believe that you would be worth the investment&#8230;</p>
<p>FYI, the Average Customer Service Rep (telephone) costs a company on Average 60k the first 3-6 mths.. (training and support)</p>
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		<title>By: Joe G</title>
		<link>http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/comment-page-1/#comment-121986</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/06/yahoo-column-make-training-a-priority/#comment-121986</guid>
		<description>Almost forgot......you gotta love it when a recruiter or hiring manager talks down on job hoppers because of the cost of training when that person leaves. I received some official job training when I was a college graduate 10 years ago. Since then, all of my training has been &quot;on the job learning&quot; under stressful conditions and long work hours. Recruiters and HR managers have the easiest jobs in the world. What scum bags!

Penelope&#039;s advice is right-on. It just takes some guts to admit it. Most people are brainwashed and live in denial. Live under your means and you can definitely live the &quot;new American dream.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Almost forgot&#8230;&#8230;you gotta love it when a recruiter or hiring manager talks down on job hoppers because of the cost of training when that person leaves. I received some official job training when I was a college graduate 10 years ago. Since then, all of my training has been &#034;on the job learning&#034; under stressful conditions and long work hours. Recruiters and HR managers have the easiest jobs in the world. What scum bags!</p>
<p>Penelope&#039;s advice is right-on. It just takes some guts to admit it. Most people are brainwashed and live in denial. Live under your means and you can definitely live the &#034;new American dream.&#034;</p>
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