This is a guest post from Jon Morrow, who is 25 years old. His blog is On Moneymaking.
By Jon Morrow – I nearly killed myself in college to get straight A’s. Well, almost straight A’s. I graduated with 37 A’s and 3 B’s for a GPA of 3.921. At the time, I thought I was hot stuff. Now I wonder if it wasn’t a waste of time. Let me explain:
1. No one has ever asked about my GPA.
I was told that having a high GPA would open all kinds of doors for me. But you know what? I interviewed with lots of companies, received a total of 14 job offers after graduation, and none of the companies asked about it. They were much more impressed with stuff like serving as Chief of Staff for the student government and starting a radio station run by 200 volunteers.
I suppose a college recruiter from a Fortune 500 company might ask, but honestly, I can’t see any employer hiring a straight-A student over someone with five years of relevant work experience. It might tip the scale in a competitive situation, but in most cases, I haven’t seen that grades are really that important to employers.
2. I didn’t sleep.
Unless you’re a super genius, getting 37 A’s is hard work. For me, it was an obsession. Anything less than an A+ on any assignment was unacceptable. I’d study for 60-80 hours a week, and if I didn’t get the highest grade in class, I’d put in 100 hours the next week.
Translation: I didn’t sleep much. From my freshman to junior year, I averaged about six hours a night. By my senior year though, I was only getting 3-5 per night, even on weekends. I was drinking a 2 liter bottle of Mountain Dew and 2-3 energy drinks per day just to stay awake. Not only is that unhealthy, but it’s not particularly fun either.
3. I’ve forgotten 95% of it.
I majored in English Literature and minored in Communication Theory. The main reason I chose those subjects was I thought they would teach me how to write and speak, two skills that would serve me well for the rest of my life.
Boy, was I stupid. Instead, I spent all my time reading classic literature and memorizing vague, pseudoscientific communication theories. Neither are useful at all, and I’ve forgotten at least 95% of it.
I’d guess the same is true for most college graduates. Tell me, what’s the point of spending 60-80 hours a week learning things that you immediately forget?
4. I didn’t have time for people.
Being in the student government and running a radio station, I had lots of opportunities to build a huge network. But I didn’t have time. Between studying and doing my job, I had to prioritize the people I wanted to develop relationships with and narrow it down to the handful who could help me the most.
That’s no way to go through school. College isn’t so much a training ground for entering the work place as a sandbox for figuring out who you are and how you relate to other people. You develop your social skills and forge relationships with people that might be colleagues for the rest of your life.
If I could do it all over again, I would spend less time in the library and more time at parties. I would have 50 friends, not 3. I would be known for “the guy that knows everyone,” not “the smartest guy in class.” Not only because it would’ve been more fun, but because I would still be friends with most of those people now and would have access to the networks they’ve developed over the last four years.
5. Work experience is more valuable.
In retrospect, I could’ve probably spent 20-30 hours a week on my studies and gotten B’s. That would’ve freed up 30-70 hours a week, depending on the course load. When I think of all of the things that I could’ve done with those hours, I just shake my head.
If there’s one thing graduates lack, it’s relevant work experience. If you want to be a freelance writer, you’re much better off writing articles for magazines and interning with a publishing company than working your tail off to get straight A’s. The experience makes you more valuable to future employers and usually results in a paycheck with a few more digits on it.
What about Graduate School?
If you’re getting your masters, going to law school, or becoming a doctor, then you’ll need all 37 of those A’s to get into the best school possible, and you can safely disregard this entire post. Just be sure that you follow through. I thought I would go to law school, and then I found out what a miserable career it is and how little it actually pays. All of those good grades are now going to waste.
It also comes down to the question, “What’s the most effective use of your time?” If you can’t imagine living without an advanced degree from an Ivy League school, then reading until your eyes fall out and sleeping on a table in the library is a perfectly defensible lifestyle.
On the other hand, if you want to get a job and make as much money as possible, then good grades aren’t going to help you as your teachers and parents might have you believe. You’re better making powerful friends, building a killer resume and generally having the time of your life on your parent’s dime.
Jon Morrow’s blog is On Moneymaking.
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Oh to be a liberal arts major. Please, don’t think that grades are not important if you go into science or engineering.
Your GPA was not a waste of time. The discipline it took to get those grades will serve you well for the rest of your life. You’d be surprised how many people have no idea how hard they can work – so when the need to they often don’t and thereby miss huge opportunities. You know you can do it when you have to. Trust me, it will be important sooner or later.
Your problem was not your GPA, your problem was your major. You poured your heart and soul into an education that you feel wasn’t worth the effort. I too would wonder what the point of it if I came out with an education I felt that I could not use.
Working during school can be of great benefit – but take it from someone who did work her way through school it can also really suck. If you want to experience some really lousy moments try working full time 3rd shift while attending classes during the day. I did not graduate with as high a GPA as you did during my first degree precisely because I had to work while going to school.
I quite agree that work experience *in your field* is of benefit to getting an interview. It’s certainly something I look for when interviewing candidates. But I also *always* check GPA’s for young new hires. Years of experience can overcome bad grades, but I would be much more unwilling to overlook them in a 25 year old.
Call me old fashioned, but decent grades indicate a willingness to work and a commitment to what you start. I don’t have to see a 4.0 in a new hire – but I’ll rarely hire a 2.9. And I always want to see at least a 3.5. You have more to prove to me if you didn’t work hard enough to get decent grades.
And funny thing about it, our young engineers with poor grades have a much harder time passing the professional licensing exam. If I am ultimately trying to hire someone who can get their PE, why should I reduce my odds by taking a chance on a candidate that did not work hard enough in school?
Posted by Vanessa on December 7, 2007 at 12:13 am | permalink |
I agree GPA may not have been helpful to you in job interviews. But definitely it would have given you a sense of pride which will reflect in your attitude. And attitude is everything.
Posted by Bob Mould on December 7, 2007 at 6:07 am | permalink |
What I have always liked about this blog is its focus on building a decent life–how to contribute to the community and family as well as just work. How to build a career that will suit your needs, not just impress others. To me, this post is the opposite. Life, education and work to me are not about being “the best student” or “the most well rounded.” You don’t have to have straight A’s, straight A+’s, or be the “most popular.” You don’t have to have the “best job” or “the most money” either. And I don’t decide to study or not, pick friends, pay attention to my family, or pick activities based on what may be the impression of future employers. Sorry but it amazes me that people actually think the way that this author seems to, and I hope the author will take some time off from work, relax, and reconnect with his inner nature a little bit. Maybe do some volunteer work or the Peace Corps. What is the point of trying so hard to impress when you don’t know where you want to end up? Whatever the other readers might think, this comment does not come from a “hippy” whatsoever, just from someone who tries to live according to values, not just the bottom line.
Posted by Liz on December 7, 2007 at 12:20 pm | permalink |
I worked 20 hours a week MAXIMUM in college on schoolwork (5-10 hours per week was more typical). I partied 2-4 times a week, made friends and connections, while double majoring and playing rugby. I graduated with a 3.6 cumulative GPA.
Granted, I could have tried harder and perhaps achieved better grades, but I have no idea what you would even do for 60-80 hours a week, let alone why you would need to put in so much time for good marks. Ever heard of declining marginal returns?
Posted by Doug on December 8, 2007 at 12:15 am | permalink |
I graduated summa cum laude in English from UC Berkeley with a 3.9 GPA. Berkeley grades on a 2.5 curve. I got these grades not because of obsessiveness, but because I LOVE to learn, engage in critical thinking, do tough research, and sort out complex information into an organized structure on deadline. Furthermore, my thesis was on a subject that applied directly to my professional life. I got a fantastic education and it has served me immeasurably. Sorry about yours.
Posted by Lee on December 8, 2007 at 1:31 pm | permalink |
This IS an inspiring story, but keep in mind that it only applies to certain fields of study. I wouldn’t take it as a solid formula for all prospective students. Nice job though
Posted by Gatzke on December 9, 2007 at 10:55 am | permalink |
Shorter article: “I am a shallow jackass.”
Posted by Cripes on December 9, 2007 at 11:45 am | permalink |
Great post. Seems spot on from my experiences.
This is encouraging for me at least. I am just about to exit college (Yay for May) and have always focused on getting a 3.0+ GPA while making sure to spend time learning other things I really want to learn.
As such, I have gotten more job opportunities, made more connections, and have more expertise from the extra curricular work I did on my own than from what the GPA does. I have probably spent just as much time building my experience in areas as I have in school. I don’t regret it at all (and my employers don’t seem to either).
There have been very few situations where I have ever regretted not spending more time getting those A’s. And arguably, for the subjects I know less about, I focus more on getting A’s in (Eg: Business Law vs. Marketing).
Good, honest post!
Posted by Nathan Snell on December 9, 2007 at 11:48 am | permalink |
I totally agree.I experienced the same thing although I was not quite as smart with so many A’s.
Posted by Jesse on December 9, 2007 at 3:37 pm | permalink |
no jon is wrong. i’m a highschool drop out and now run my own management business. but looking back, wish i would of finished school. u can always pick your business, but going back to school years later would be difficult and admit would be useless. a degree is something that no body can take away and a high grade average is even better:-) cheers to u jon
Posted by johnCard on December 9, 2007 at 4:39 pm | permalink |
I don’t miss the fun college life, but I should have cracked down a little harder and got better grades.
Could I have gotten higher grades in college, heck yes, but I can’t go back and be young and do crazy things again either, so having lots of friends and lots of fun can’t ever be replaced!
College grades are very important for jobs immediately after collge, because you don’t have any or little work experience, so they use that as a way to measure your ability to push hard and get good grades.
Since I am older now, my experience is far more important on my resume. I list my college and degree at the very bottom of my resume, but leave off my GPA.
Just because a person has a high GPA, doesn’t mean jack when you work with me. I’ve worked with some extremely sharp people that didn’t have a college degree and would put them above a lot of people who do have college degrees.
I remember about 10 years ago when a young punk came to work at our company, and he always ended his reasoning of why something should be done in a certain way with the line “and because I went to MIT”. This guy was very incompetent and his big talk didn’t save his ass because we fired him 6 weeks later. I still wonder if he even had a degree from MIT.
Posted by enlightenment on December 9, 2007 at 11:21 pm | permalink |
I’m not surprised that most of the people commenting here can’t think in shades that aren’t black and white. The gist of the original post is simple: manage your time to get a lot of good experience in before you graduate. Nowhere does it say that you should stop caring about grades; nowhere does it say that you should completely slack off; and nowhere does it say that grades are completely irrelevant.
If a recent grad with a 3.0 isn’t a big enough hot shot to score a job with a big investment banking or consulting company it does NOT mean he/she is doomed for life. If the person works for a few years after graduation, proves themself to be great assets to a company, and a big Fortune 500 firm still won’t look at them because of some classes they took place 10 years ago, then perhaps these companies will miss out on some of the best that is out there; but someone will notice and you’ll be fine.
And by the way, for all the commenters who are pumping the investment banking and consulting industry as being the place where the hottest grads go to work… I can’t help but look at the front page of the newspaper every day and think “so this is where the smartest and most talented grads in our country work? Sad.”
Posted by Paul Blackstone on December 9, 2007 at 11:26 pm | permalink |
This type of reasoning only comes from business/eng/poli sci majors. NOT students from traditionally harder streams like sciences or engineering.
Posted by Kirill on December 10, 2007 at 12:27 am | permalink |
I majored in Computer Science. Out of a life career, I’ve only had 1 employer (government) ask for GPA and transcripts.
I can tell that your initial impression makes a big difference in how you get treated throughout the interview process. I’d probably ask for GPA if I questioned someones presentation or experience.
However, since graduation, I’ve found that most interviews in my professional are followed up with technical interviews that are unrealistic with highly obscure technical questions. In fact, I’d match some of the ‘technical’ interviews against my final examinations from college.
Additionally, more people in CS are now asking for MS degrees… With tech interviews the way they are, programming may just as well be a certification with a ten month time limit.
Posted by Stefano on December 10, 2007 at 12:27 am | permalink |
While it is nice to get good grades, and more useful than bad, don’t neglect the other areas of life. Try and achieve a balance between both. The mountain dew reminds me of a story my aunt told me about someone who was in college and drank copious amounts of the stuff every night. My aunt is a psychologist, and the problem was that this patient had developed a physical dependancy and addiction to the stuff, and as it was legal consumed so much he was now obese, addicted and could not sleep most nights. His life was a wreck. True story. I don’t remember the end exactly, although I vaguely recall that he did overcome the addiction.
Posted by Ben on December 10, 2007 at 12:30 am | permalink |
If you were an engineer or business major or any other hard science then you DO need a good GPA. recruiters wouldn’t even get a interview with out havening a top GPA, sure experience will trump but your not going to get it if you don’t have the grades. Oh and you would need to remember what you learn.
Posted by Ben on December 10, 2007 at 12:35 am | permalink |
I don’t really agree with your conclusions about getting high grades in college. I suspect a somewhat narcissitic “look-at-me” pout.
I also received straight As in College, working as much as you did, and I too was driven to perfection in my studies. But it was not wasted, for I learned from this experience about how to get things done, be disciplined, and never give up. Never make excuses and keep moving.
That is what college is all about: learning how to get things done.
Posted by desaparecido on December 10, 2007 at 1:26 am | permalink |
@ Ben (one of the other Bens): My GPA is relatively low (3.0ish- I care to keep my GPA above 3.0, that’s about it) and I’m a senior majoring in marketing (pretty generic major) and I have companies and businesses contacting me asking when I graduate and if I have a job yet. Most of my classmates are wondering what they’re going to do when they get their diploma.
You don’t need a high GPA – you need to go meet people who are working in the field you’re interested in. I am interested in the web, so I started a website. Turned out people liked my website and my design and my writing, and I have met dozens of people who are interested in helping me get a job in quite a few fields (not all web-related) simply based on some of my writing and some of the things others have told them about me.
Smart people with good connections and good social skills will do better than smart people with good grades. I think Penelope says that a bunch on this website…
Posted by Ben Bleikamp on December 10, 2007 at 2:07 am | permalink |
Thought I would add my 2 cents. I figured this out about 12 years ago when I was in college (I am now 32). Since then I am now earning nearly 200k (not in sales either) have held high ranking positions in multibillion dollar companies and my GPA in college was a very average 2.97.
Why? Because I used the knack that allows me to succeed in business back in college. I do what I need to do to succeed. I learned a lot in college and since graduating. I love to learn… I just don’t like to waste my time.
College is definitely worthwhile and depending on what you are majoring in you can learn many things that are pertinent – just getting good grades shouldn’t be the priority, learning should be, academically and socially. btw, I am not making this stuff up.
Posted by Scott on December 10, 2007 at 3:14 am | permalink |
I got into grad school, and I certainly didn’t make all A’s. Not the best grad school ever, but it works for me. No one ever asks me for my GPA, and I’ve forgotten a lot of what I learned as well.
Posted by Jen on December 10, 2007 at 3:31 am | permalink |
Work experience counting more than grades? That sounds like heaven to me.
In Germany, it’s only grades, grades, grades. That, and being young. You could be a total leader and have built a commercial empire with 10000 employees, but unless you have the “right” papers you will not be able to get a decent job at a bigger German company. Because they will not look at your CV if it doesn’t have the exact education they are looking for.
At the same time, German companies are complaining a lot about how much more dynamic and flexible the Chinese or Indians are.
It’s really a pity, but if you are not believing in a University degree being the answer to anything, you will have to look for work elsewhere.
On the other hand, if you have a killer degree and no experience, you should come here.
Posted by Bernd Labach on December 10, 2007 at 4:50 am | permalink |
If you had slept more, you would have gotten those A’s with a lot less effort. Your brain was fried.
If you had majored in math or engineering or chemistry, you would have learned job relevant
skills and you would not have forgotten 90 percent of it–or you would be unemployable.
It ought to be illegal to give degrees in drivel–such as english lit and “communications”. Unless, from the getgo it is explained that that stuff is drivel. Imagine, a degree for studying ….”stories”, and “poems”. That’s getting a degree for aquiring…Culture, as distinct from something useful, like the
art of entering numbers into spreadsheets, or of
bossing people around.
On the other hand, some might argue that the reason for a university education is NOT job training or job skills, but getting an ….education. Job training ( except in the sciences and premed) is the mission of TRADE SCHOOLS, not universities. But, then they should explain that clearly before you spend a fortune
on it. You might not want an …education. You might prefer to learn….how to run commerical computer programs to graph stock prices. You might not want to read “theories” but learn to write tv commericals for such important things as hairspray and cheeze whiz.
I see no reason why one should spend a hundred thousand dollars to “study” the romance novels of Jane Austen, or the theatrical distractions of Shakespeare. Others might want to spend for it.
But, we all know…that in the workplace…learning to have a “network” and to hold one’s liquor is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than, say,
the theories of Plato.
Posted by penny on December 10, 2007 at 5:31 am | permalink |
I gained some very valuable critical thinking, creative, and writing skills as an English/Computer Science major, and I apply them everyday in the world of software engineering.
In fact, they’ve made me a much more valuable candidate to employers than the average shmuck who can’t be bothered to learn how to write succinctly and correctly–something I learned how to do by reading and analyzing “distractions” like Jane Austen.
I can’t put enough emphasis on the critical thinking aspect of studying literature. I would not have gained the same level of critical thinking ability by just studying computer science. Until you’ve actually taken an upper-level English class, and done well, don’t talk about how “worthless” it is.
People like you would’ve benefited greatly from reading a few books, because you’ve obviously got no clue–and you certainly didn’t think much before writing a post like this.
You’re an idiot.
Posted by Steve on October 12, 2011 at 3:57 pm | permalink |
Someposted:
//Just because a person has a high GPA, doesn't mean jack when you work with me. I've worked with some extremely sharp people that didn't have a college degree and would put them above a lot of people who do have college degrees.//
Sure, and if you ever need Heart Surgury, remember that a college degree means JACK.
Get it from a nondegreed sharpie.
Posted by penny on December 10, 2007 at 5:38 am | permalink |
someoneposted
//I am getting ready to attend college after serving many years in the US Navy. I am currently working as an Environmental Scientist with no college education and receiving pay and benefits similar to my colleagues with degrees.//
Pay maybe, and title maybe, but if you don’t understand the details of partial differential equations, thermodynamics, etc., you NOT an environmental SCIENTIST. You are not even close.
Scientists create new thought. You are working as a …..TECHNICIAN.
Posted by penny on December 10, 2007 at 5:45 am | permalink |
@Penny, English literature is not “drivel”, nor should it be illegal to give degrees in English literature. That’s a ridiculous notion.
Someone signing up to do a degree in English literature knows that it’s not the best thing to study if what you really want to do is learn how to put numbers into a spreadsheet. But neither is pure mathematics, which is even more highly theoretical and rarefied than studying the theories of Plato.
Education is meant to contribute to our understanding of the world, not merely help us function within it.
Posted by Caitlin on December 10, 2007 at 6:21 am | permalink |
Caitlin,
Read my post again with attention to IRONY and SATIRE. Have you ever read J. Swift?
You completely missed my point.
Penny
p.s. The world is going to hell in a handbasket.
Posted by Penny on December 10, 2007 at 8:28 am | permalink |
I doubt OP went to a good school.
Posted by Josh on December 10, 2007 at 10:37 am | permalink |
Just look at our president. He didn’t get straight As. On second thought, better crack those books.
Posted by Jet Travis on December 10, 2007 at 10:44 am | permalink |
This is the only dumb post I’ve read on this blog. If you didn’t have time for people and a life then you weren’t good at time management. I have a 4.0, frat parties, leadership positions, internships, a job, great friends, and great mentors
Posted by Vanessa on December 11, 2007 at 2:37 am | permalink |
Ive never gotten straight A’s
Posted by psychic readings on December 12, 2007 at 11:38 am | permalink |
You won’t retain everything you have learned in college and I don’t think that’s the point of it. I think schooling is to help you know how to think and learn and reason things out.
Getting good grades takes commitment and hard work. When you are working towards a goal and you see your way to the end successfully that will do you a world of good in your career as you will face many things that will require that kind of dedication.
Knowledge is great, but without wisdom it doesn’t amount to much. Put the two together and you’ve got something!
Posted by Patricia Robb on December 14, 2007 at 9:51 pm | permalink |
I can say I regret not having gotten straight As in college. If I had actually learned something there, I might have a job today.
Posted by Jonathan on December 15, 2007 at 7:10 pm | permalink |
Great Article!
Grades are definitely not a predictor of a successful working life – nor is college for that matter but I bet the drive and hard work that made you successful in college is what is making you successful now. You likely have learned to balance that obsession for achievement. I was too heartbroken when I found out no one cared about my GPA but I was one of the few that took the grad school path and that was the only reason that GPA mattered. Now I realize what I learned getting that 3.9 GPA was efficiency of work flow and that pays off every day.
Posted by Jennifer on December 19, 2007 at 2:41 am | permalink |
So true so true.. What helps me a great deal now in running my small business were skills that I learned participating gazillion student organizations and jobs while skipping classes. Sure I had less than stellar grades (shh don’t tell my parents), but I learned a lot about grass roots marketing and making small-budgets work. I wouldn’t be able to learn that in the classrooms.
Cheers,
Cindy
Posted by cindy*staged4more on December 19, 2007 at 3:03 am | permalink |
Higher education is NOT supposed to be about learning business skills–especially if you don’t major in business. It’s about becoming a more cultured human being.
The business degree is itself a perversion of a university education–created as a sop to the business world–to make it look like business is somehow an academically worthy prestigious thing:
which pleases the ignorant, anti-intellectual business people that unversities have given over their boards of trustees to–
and to get lots of money from students.
My dad learned about the same stuff as one learns in a business BA and MA program ( back in the 1930′s) for FREE: In High School under the old
commercial program. This included micro and macro economic planning, management skills, marketing and market research, etc.
Sad to say , even that is a perversion: because he didn’t learn the stuff one should learn about liberal arts in High School.
Again, Universities should NOT be trade schools for clerks ( executives).\
You people have been badly cheated, if that is what you wanted to get out of it.
Posted by penny on December 19, 2007 at 8:26 am | permalink |
One thing that great grades show is OBEDIENCE to authority, and conformity to the system, the party line and the rules.
These are good predictors for corporate success at all but the top level.
Of course, this refers to liberal arts, and business majors–not to science and math majors where the actual material is important to the job itself.
In math or chemistry or physics, if you forget
most of the material you studied in university,
you are unable to DO the job.
One measure of whether you have been cheated in university–of a real education–or are greatly underemployed ( even at high pay), is whether you use most of what you learned in your
job.
People who spend their time in University
networking, going to parties, drinking, doing sports etc, DO NOT BELONG IN UNIVERSITY–they are
immature fools wasting the time and resources of the scholars who are there to give them an education.
And the universities are corrupt–because they care more about tuition than standards–such people should be expelled.
Posted by penny on December 19, 2007 at 8:33 am | permalink |