Comments on: Lines blur between non-profit and for-profit workplaces http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/ Advice at the intersection of work and life Thu, 09 Feb 2012 16:29:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: Danielle http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-244523 Danielle Tue, 01 Mar 2011 01:52:59 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/#comment-244523 I completely agree Susan. I've been working in non-profits for six years, and I'm not even 30 yet. I started off wanted to working in non-profits because I wanted my work to do good. I've had my ups and downs, but now I'm living on my own, in New York City (not Manhattan), and I need more than a paycheck for rent. It's very hard to want to stay in the industry when you're always broke. I'm not saying I want to be rolling in money, but basically in order to survive I have to have a roommate/live in lover, or live where no one else does, or have to have the commute from hell. I love what I do, although I am boggled at how much inefficiency is rampant in non-profits. If these were companies, they'd be gone. I'd like to learn more about Andrew Broderick, and others switching from non-profits to for-profits. I can find lots of stuff switching from profit to non-profit, but not vice versa. Perhaps you could elaborate on your experience, Barbara? I completely agree Susan. I've been working in non-profits for six years, and I'm not even 30 yet. I started off wanted to working in non-profits because I wanted my work to do good. I've had my ups and downs, but now I'm living on my own, in New York City (not Manhattan), and I need more than a paycheck for rent. It's very hard to want to stay in the industry when you're always broke.

I'm not saying I want to be rolling in money, but basically in order to survive I have to have a roommate/live in lover, or live where no one else does, or have to have the commute from hell. I love what I do, although I am boggled at how much inefficiency is rampant in non-profits. If these were companies, they'd be gone.

I'd like to learn more about Andrew Broderick, and others switching from non-profits to for-profits. I can find lots of stuff switching from profit to non-profit, but not vice versa. Perhaps you could elaborate on your experience, Barbara?

]]> By: Susan http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-111858 Susan Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:57:16 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/#comment-111858 Well put, Barbara! I've heard those support roles referred to as the "pink ghetto." That was a major factor in my decision to leave the nonprofit sector. Well put, Barbara! I've heard those support roles referred to as the "pink ghetto." That was a major factor in my decision to leave the nonprofit sector.

]]> By: Barbara Saunders http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-111848 Barbara Saunders Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:56:49 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/#comment-111848 I have worked at both nonprofits and for-profits. Every time I've left a nonprofit, it's been the lack of professionalism, not the low pay, that drove me out. It's one thing to pay person X% less for the same job. It's another to keep intelligent people (usually women) in support roles indefinitely. I have worked at both nonprofits and for-profits. Every time I've left a nonprofit, it's been the lack of professionalism, not the low pay, that drove me out. It's one thing to pay person X% less for the same job. It's another to keep intelligent people (usually women) in support roles indefinitely.

]]> By: The increasingly shrinking difference between non-profit and for … http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-111814 The increasingly shrinking difference between non-profit and for … Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:04:27 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/#comment-111814 [...] Penelope Trunk added an interesting post today on The increasingly shrinking difference between non-profit and for … [...] [...] Penelope Trunk added an interesting post today on The increasingly shrinking difference between non-profit and for … [...]

]]> By: Jeremiah http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-111641 Jeremiah Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:57:00 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/#comment-111641 I work for a non-profit in the IT industry and it's nice to know that my hard work is helping people. I can't see myself being as dedicated if my CEO made 700k salary and millions in bonuses. I work for a non-profit in the IT industry and it's nice to know that my hard work is helping people. I can't see myself being as dedicated if my CEO made 700k salary and millions in bonuses.

]]> By: Flexo http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-111616 Flexo Thu, 15 Nov 2007 03:36:45 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/#comment-111616 I started in non-profit, switched to corporate, and now I'm itching to get back to non-profit, even if I have to take a pay cut to do so. I gained a bit of perspective and knowledge in the for-profit world, but I do have the feeling that the work I do is incredibly shallow. I want to get back working for an issue that I care about and start making a difference every day. By the way, I'm 31. Does that make me part of Generation X...? I've never been completely sure about that... I've heard differing opinions about the definition. I started in non-profit, switched to corporate, and now I'm itching to get back to non-profit, even if I have to take a pay cut to do so. I gained a bit of perspective and knowledge in the for-profit world, but I do have the feeling that the work I do is incredibly shallow. I want to get back working for an issue that I care about and start making a difference every day.

By the way, I'm 31. Does that make me part of Generation X…? I've never been completely sure about that… I've heard differing opinions about the definition.

]]> By: Jennifer http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-111579 Jennifer Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:51:04 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/#comment-111579 I understand about doing community care day and people being alowed to take time from their work to "volunteer" in the community. At our nonprofit we do use these services but to be honest it is a lot of work to get ready for it. Finding things they can do, time to train and monitoring what they are doing. Plus the responsibilities are not always the most pleasant. The recent experience was awful. We had them painting a wall. They had paint splatters all over the floor even with a clothe down and did a terrible job. We had to have the carpets cleaned and then hired a company to come in and paint over it. I am glad that people want to help but sometimes it is a lot more work then worth. I understand about doing community care day and people being alowed to take time from their work to "volunteer" in the community. At our nonprofit we do use these services but to be honest it is a lot of work to get ready for it. Finding things they can do, time to train and monitoring what they are doing. Plus the responsibilities are not always the most pleasant. The recent experience was awful. We had them painting a wall. They had paint splatters all over the floor even with a clothe down and did a terrible job. We had to have the carpets cleaned and then hired a company to come in and paint over it. I am glad that people want to help but sometimes it is a lot more work then worth.

]]> By: Brian Johnson http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-111532 Brian Johnson Wed, 14 Nov 2007 04:13:33 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/#comment-111532 <p>The time has come to start making some subdivisions in the non-profit sector. Trying to make sweeping generalizations about a hospice facility, boy scout troop, symphony orchestra, homeless shelter, and aeronautics research institude in the same sentence just doesn't work. </p> <p>Measureable results are fine for some of these missions but completely irrational for others. Having salaries that are competitive with the private sector makes sense if you're curing cancer, but has a hugely adverse impact if you run a food pantry. The only thing these organizations have in common is one small section of a 16,000 page tax code.</p> <p>I appreciate the point of this post, but each of these issues should be debated around a certain industry within the non-profit sector.</p> <p>As it relates to pay disparities, there's an inherent advantage for non-profits with lower salaries - it provides a very effective screen to weed out people that are passionate about what they're doing vs. just looking for a paycheck. Employee passion can be a huge factor in the success of a non-profit in delivering its mission.</p> * * * * * * * <I>Brian, you bring up some interesting points that I didn't consider. I don't know about that salary stuff, though. I think these might all become moot as for-profit companies allow people to have a big salary and have time to work at causes they are passionate about. Additionally, I think companies like Apple get people who are very passionat about Apple without having to "weed people out" by paying them below-market wages. --Penelope</I> The time has come to start making some subdivisions in the non-profit sector. Trying to make sweeping generalizations about a hospice facility, boy scout troop, symphony orchestra, homeless shelter, and aeronautics research institude in the same sentence just doesn't work.

Measureable results are fine for some of these missions but completely irrational for others. Having salaries that are competitive with the private sector makes sense if you're curing cancer, but has a hugely adverse impact if you run a food pantry. The only thing these organizations have in common is one small section of a 16,000 page tax code.

I appreciate the point of this post, but each of these issues should be debated around a certain industry within the non-profit sector.

As it relates to pay disparities, there's an inherent advantage for non-profits with lower salaries – it provides a very effective screen to weed out people that are passionate about what they're doing vs. just looking for a paycheck. Employee passion can be a huge factor in the success of a non-profit in delivering its mission.

* * * * * * *

Brian, you bring up some interesting points that I didn't consider.

I don't know about that salary stuff, though. I think these might all become moot as for-profit companies allow people to have a big salary and have time to work at causes they are passionate about. Additionally, I think companies like Apple get people who are very passionat about Apple without having to "weed people out" by paying them below-market wages.

–Penelope

]]> By: Suzanne http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-111523 Suzanne Wed, 14 Nov 2007 01:52:31 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/#comment-111523 <p>I think it's worth noting that a lot of Gen Xers got their start in nonprofits, because that's where the jobs were in the early to mid-1990s. I think you can thank Gen Xers for the increase in nonprofit organizations and jobs, as well as the professionalization of the industry. Gen Xers don't get credit for much, however, we certainly deserve it here.</p> <p>I believe that even journalism will become a nonprofit industry in this century - mainly foundation-supported reporting on specific issues such as the environment. Before you ask if that would that be objective reporting, ask yourself if corporate ownership of news organizations influences reporting.</p> * * * * * * <I>That's a great point about Gen-X. As an X-er myself, I love seeing my own history reflected back to me, and this is a great comment for that. Thanks. Also, such an interesting remark about journalism. I think there is truth to that -- and probably sooner than we think. But maybe a way to think about journalism is not that it's non-profit but that journalism is a means to something else, and the line between advertising and journalism will go away. Maybe. Maybe we will rely on our own good judgment instead of that line. --Penelope</I> I think it's worth noting that a lot of Gen Xers got their start in nonprofits, because that's where the jobs were in the early to mid-1990s. I think you can thank Gen Xers for the increase in nonprofit organizations and jobs, as well as the professionalization of the industry. Gen Xers don't get credit for much, however, we certainly deserve it here.

I believe that even journalism will become a nonprofit industry in this century – mainly foundation-supported reporting on specific issues such as the environment. Before you ask if that would that be objective reporting, ask yourself if corporate ownership of news organizations influences reporting.

* * * * * *
That's a great point about Gen-X. As an X-er myself, I love seeing my own history reflected back to me, and this is a great comment for that. Thanks.

Also, such an interesting remark about journalism. I think there is truth to that — and probably sooner than we think. But maybe a way to think about journalism is not that it's non-profit but that journalism is a means to something else, and the line between advertising and journalism will go away. Maybe. Maybe we will rely on our own good judgment instead of that line.

–Penelope

]]> By: Aimee http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-111508 Aimee Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:05:20 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/12/fusing-non-profit-work-with-for-profit-work-makes-better-jobs/#comment-111508 The difference between non-profits and the business industry is shallowest in the associations that support business industries like SHRM or NAM. One of the things I run into most working with associations is that members expect you to be extensively knowledgeable about their industry. I'm a meeting planner. I can tell you 15 ways to order and set up food and beverage to maximize your budget but I am not qualifies (nor do I care) to have a technical discussion about the merits of various teacher education accredidation groups. Many of the older employees came from the industries that the association's represent so don't understand association professionals, those of us who specialize in an area of association management (membership, government relations, meetings etc.). It's not that I don't care about my non-profit's mission. I think defining the best criteria for teacher accreditation is important but my career is not tied to this association so I choose to focus more on developing my meeting planning skills. I agree with Penelope that the industry is becomming more professional, but I think there is still a long way to go for most in areas such as compensation. The difference between non-profits and the business industry is shallowest in the associations that support business industries like SHRM or NAM. One of the things I run into most working with associations is that members expect you to be extensively knowledgeable about their industry. I'm a meeting planner. I can tell you 15 ways to order and set up food and beverage to maximize your budget but I am not qualifies (nor do I care) to have a technical discussion about the merits of various teacher education accredidation groups. Many of the older employees came from the industries that the association's represent so don't understand association professionals, those of us who specialize in an area of association management (membership, government relations, meetings etc.). It's not that I don't care about my non-profit's mission. I think defining the best criteria for teacher accreditation is important but my career is not tied to this association so I choose to focus more on developing my meeting planning skills. I agree with Penelope that the industry is becomming more professional, but I think there is still a long way to go for most in areas such as compensation.

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