Comments on: 5 Myths about going to law school http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/ Advice at the intersection of work and life Sun, 21 Mar 2010 06:44:20 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc hourly 1 By: After reading this I will not go to law school http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/comment-page-3/#comment-223654 After reading this I will not go to law school Sat, 13 Mar 2010 07:22:57 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/#comment-223654 You guys win! I'm not going to law school. There's just too many current student and lawyers on this board that are saying the same thing. Thank you. I don't want to be miserable. You guys win! I'm not going to law school. There's just too many current student and lawyers on this board that are saying the same thing.

Thank you. I don't want to be miserable.

]]> By: Ben http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/comment-page-3/#comment-222809 Ben Sat, 06 Mar 2010 21:40:25 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/#comment-222809 Greg, I really, really, really encourage you to read "Being a Happy, Healthy, and Ethical Lawyer" http://www.averyindex.com/happy_healthy_ethical.php It is very well balanced. I also would tell you to read some of the posts here with a grain of salt. From this you would think that all or most lawyers are miserable - there is indeed some truth to this - the number of depressed lawyers is shocking. That being said, there are many happy ones, usually they are the ones who have worked hard and eventually made partner in a smaller to mid-size firm or have opened up their own practice. Also, government attorneys, at least at the Fed level, have a better quality of life. Also, if it makes you feel any better, I thought law school would be hell, but in truth, I've had a great, even fun time, and still did well academically. It is possible. But again, do read the link provided, its long but well worth it. Greg, I really, really, really encourage you to read "Being a Happy, Healthy, and Ethical Lawyer" http://www.averyindex.com/happy_healthy_ethical.php

It is very well balanced. I also would tell you to read some of the posts here with a grain of salt. From this you would think that all or most lawyers are miserable – there is indeed some truth to this – the number of depressed lawyers is shocking. That being said, there are many happy ones, usually they are the ones who have worked hard and eventually made partner in a smaller to mid-size firm or have opened up their own practice. Also, government attorneys, at least at the Fed level, have a better quality of life.

Also, if it makes you feel any better, I thought law school would be hell, but in truth, I've had a great, even fun time, and still did well academically. It is possible. But again, do read the link provided, its long but well worth it.

]]> By: Greg http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/comment-page-3/#comment-222806 Greg Sat, 06 Mar 2010 21:02:48 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/#comment-222806 Great Post. I'm finishing up college and I'm seriously considering a career in law. I've taken my LSAT and I am thinking about applying for fall of 2011. I'll definitely think about what you said and do some research and checking around. But great read for anyone considering going to law school. Great Post. I'm finishing up college and I'm seriously considering a career in law. I've taken my LSAT and I am thinking about applying for fall of 2011. I'll definitely think about what you said and do some research and checking around. But great read for anyone considering going to law school.

]]> By: BG http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/comment-page-2/#comment-222692 BG Fri, 05 Mar 2010 21:05:21 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/#comment-222692 I understand your point, but the fact that the AMA stops the opening of new medical schools is not a good thing for this country so I'd rather not see that sort of thing in the law (or any other) profession. It's obviously a good thing for the select few students that don't let the odds stop them from applying to begin with and who actually get accepted into medical school, but this nonsense is breaking our healthcare system. What we need in law (and most other fields too) is for the government or someone to force the universities to give kids a realistic view of their future job prospects and future salary before any school starts taking their tuition money. We need to dismiss this crazy idea that if school (undergrad) didn't get you a job what you really need to fix that is more school. Show them a plot of the salaries coming out of that school - not just the average. Show them how many kids didn't return a survey and then assume anyone who doesn't return the employment survey does not have a job. Then, if after being told that law is a winner-take-all game, if the kid still goes to a third tier school he knows what he's in for and can't complain. Also, I'm assuming you realize that if law schools were limited like med schools that you would not have been admitted to one because the entire fourth tier and most of the third tier wouldn't exist. I mean you knowingly went to a fourth tier school. It was public so it didn't cost you too much ($12800/yr is the 2010 tuition), but you shouldn't have had any illusions about it being prestigious. The admissions office probably overstated your possible job prospects but to be honest if you're some poly sci, history, or english major you had no job prospects to begin with. Three years at a cheap law school, while maybe not the best move, will probably open some door for you in the future. I mean you didn't even spend $35K in total tuition. Do you know how many undergrads spend that every year at some fancy (though not prestigious) private school only to have zero job prospects at graduation? Really, if push comes to shove, you can always join the marines and they'll probably pay off your loans. I understand your point, but the fact that the AMA stops the opening of new medical schools is not a good thing for this country so I'd rather not see that sort of thing in the law (or any other) profession. It's obviously a good thing for the select few students that don't let the odds stop them from applying to begin with and who actually get accepted into medical school, but this nonsense is breaking our healthcare system.

What we need in law (and most other fields too) is for the government or someone to force the universities to give kids a realistic view of their future job prospects and future salary before any school starts taking their tuition money. We need to dismiss this crazy idea that if school (undergrad) didn't get you a job what you really need to fix that is more school. Show them a plot of the salaries coming out of that school – not just the average. Show them how many kids didn't return a survey and then assume anyone who doesn't return the employment survey does not have a job. Then, if after being told that law is a winner-take-all game, if the kid still goes to a third tier school he knows what he's in for and can't complain.

Also, I'm assuming you realize that if law schools were limited like med schools that you would not have been admitted to one because the entire fourth tier and most of the third tier wouldn't exist. I mean you knowingly went to a fourth tier school. It was public so it didn't cost you too much ($12800/yr is the 2010 tuition), but you shouldn't have had any illusions about it being prestigious. The admissions office probably overstated your possible job prospects but to be honest if you're some poly sci, history, or english major you had no job prospects to begin with. Three years at a cheap law school, while maybe not the best move, will probably open some door for you in the future. I mean you didn't even spend $35K in total tuition. Do you know how many undergrads spend that every year at some fancy (though not prestigious) private school only to have zero job prospects at graduation? Really, if push comes to shove, you can always join the marines and they'll probably pay off your loans.

]]> By: Ben http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/comment-page-1/#comment-221764 Ben Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:24:51 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/#comment-221764 I think this is a great resource for anyone thinking about a legal career. Its long, but most definately worth the read. http://www.averyindex.com/happy_healthy_ethical.php I think this is a great resource for anyone thinking about a legal career. Its long, but most definately worth the read.

http://www.averyindex.com/happy_healthy_ethical.php

]]> By: Mark http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/comment-page-1/#comment-221727 Mark Sun, 28 Feb 2010 10:34:06 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/#comment-221727 Sorry, I just want to get this comment at the top to encourage anyone arriving here that it is worth it to read all the comments to the bottom. I don't see this topic going away any time soon. It's a lot of comments, but also a lot of perspective for those in this situation thinking of law school. AND, what I was thinking that I didn't see much of was - looking at established babyboomer or even genX lawyers may not tell you much about the current state of affairs. The tuition hikes, the oversaturation, etc. - but more than that, that it probably isn't wise to go off of their experience as a newb way back when, and their experience now as a tenured success. (or that you can necessarily emulate that today). Despite the crybaby comments, it is a good idea to get some idea of the odds and a feel from people currently negotiating the system. It's hard to believe such consistency in remarks is simply a matter of a small minority of losers or crybabies that didn't do well in school or just lazy, antisocial, etc. I don't know why the most prevalent comments can't reflect the most prevalent experience, why assume it is just a lot of commentary from a vocal minority? Even if your individual experience is positive, the facts don't seem to be on your side. I wish more commentors would point out how they know the negativity is bogus, point out some numbers, articles, stats, referecnces, something, something to encourage us in face of the numbers pointed to by those being labeled as simply negative. Sorry, I just want to get this comment at the top to encourage anyone arriving here that it is worth it to read all the comments to the bottom. I don't see this topic going away any time soon. It's a lot of comments, but also a lot of perspective for those in this situation thinking of law school. AND, what I was thinking that I didn't see much of was – looking at established babyboomer or even genX lawyers may not tell you much about the current state of affairs. The tuition hikes, the oversaturation, etc. – but more than that, that it probably isn't wise to go off of their experience as a newb way back when, and their experience now as a tenured success. (or that you can necessarily emulate that today). Despite the crybaby comments, it is a good idea to get some idea of the odds and a feel from people currently negotiating the system. It's hard to believe such consistency in remarks is simply a matter of a small minority of losers or crybabies that didn't do well in school or just lazy, antisocial, etc. I don't know why the most prevalent comments can't reflect the most prevalent experience, why assume it is just a lot of commentary from a vocal minority? Even if your individual experience is positive, the facts don't seem to be on your side. I wish more commentors would point out how they know the negativity is bogus, point out some numbers, articles, stats, referecnces, something, something to encourage us in face of the numbers pointed to by those being labeled as simply negative.

]]> By: Mark http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/comment-page-1/#comment-221726 Mark Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:31:35 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/#comment-221726 I have to concur that this a ridiculously romantic comment - apparently Peter knows even less about doctors, some enter med school with passion, but certainly many are there for the money, but they come out burnt up, burnt out, also with huge debt and little interest in the romantic notion described. I have to concur that this a ridiculously romantic comment – apparently Peter knows even less about doctors, some enter med school with passion, but certainly many are there for the money, but they come out burnt up, burnt out, also with huge debt and little interest in the romantic notion described.

]]> By: Attorney desperately seeking employment http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/comment-page-2/#comment-221287 Attorney desperately seeking employment Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:22:02 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/#comment-221287 WE NEED AN ORGANIZATION THAT UNITES ATTORNEYS AGAINST ABA. If med schools can limit their number to 131 and Dentists can limit dental schools to about 58, then we can surely keep the number of law schools under control. The whole thing is a scam. I graduated from Texas Southern University law school - some of my professors were barely literate. Except for a few good professors, most did nothing for me. They have a mysterious double grading system that undercuts students who secure good grades on their merit. There are other terrible law schools out there and plenty of terrible lawyers because of it. The law schools, including mine, inflate their post-graduation employment figures by hiring graduates from menial temporary jobs or by outright lying. ABA leadership is heavily composed of law school administrators and Big Law attorneys, while majority of Attorneys in america dont fall into the big-law category and these are the people who are struggling to find jobs. The average lawyer is severely unpaid, her/his pay undercut by the huge numbers of graduates being churned out of diploma mill law schools every year. On top of that , ABA has allowed outsourcing, this has severely cut the basic work unemployed attorneys depended on - document review. The average attorney is squeezed from all sides with ABA doing more to hurt her/him. The medical field takes care of its own. The dental field takes care of its own. But the only people the ABA takes care of are 1. the deans of trashy law schools like mine who make a million or more a year and 2. the Big law firms that benefit from getting their document work done by ridiculously underpaid attorneys in the US or abroad. ABA, please stop this madness! stop this corruption! You have destroyed not only our livelihood but the prestige we worked so hard to get. WE NEED AN ORGANIZATION THAT UNITES ATTORNEYS AGAINST ABA. If med schools can limit their number to 131 and Dentists can limit dental schools to about 58, then we can surely keep the number of law schools under control. The whole thing is a scam. I graduated from Texas Southern University law school – some of my professors were barely literate. Except for a few good professors, most did nothing for me. They have a mysterious double grading system that undercuts students who secure good grades on their merit. There are other terrible law schools out there and plenty of terrible lawyers because of it. The law schools, including mine, inflate their post-graduation employment figures by hiring graduates from menial temporary jobs or by outright lying. ABA leadership is heavily composed of law school administrators and Big Law attorneys, while majority of Attorneys in america dont fall into the big-law category and these are the people who are struggling to find jobs. The average lawyer is severely unpaid, her/his pay undercut by the huge numbers of graduates being churned out of diploma mill law schools every year. On top of that , ABA has allowed outsourcing, this has severely cut the basic work unemployed attorneys depended on – document review. The average attorney is squeezed from all sides with ABA doing more to hurt her/him. The medical field takes care of its own. The dental field takes care of its own. But the only people the ABA takes care of are 1. the deans of trashy law schools like mine who make a million or more a year and 2. the Big law firms that benefit from getting their document work done by ridiculously underpaid attorneys in the US or abroad. ABA, please stop this madness! stop this corruption! You have destroyed not only our livelihood but the prestige we worked so hard to get.

]]> By: Full-of-it http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/comment-page-2/#comment-220959 Full-of-it Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:50:24 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/#comment-220959 Its funny how everybody on the internet is top 10% at top 15 school.... yeah, what are the odds.... that you would on the internet whining like a baby. All this internet stuff is such BS. I go to a T4, we have the lowest mandatory GPA curve in the country. Just getting in to a top 50l is a ticket to graduation, the bottom tiers are by a consensus here (between UNC and Duke friends) much more difficult to do well at. Thats because the curve is a c-. Those of you on a pass/fail... please be quiet. Anyway, I am not here to argue with intellectual powerhouses here. The truth is that everything, including law school is what you make of it. And all this top firm stuff is MOSTLY a pyramid scheme and if you want to be a gerbil and work 70hrs a week for a douche more power to you, and when you dont make partner your realize youve been duped. The fact is that you can always hang a shingle, and you might not get rich, but at least you dont have to be a slave. So many of you work so hard to impress somebody who is dumber than you. Most of these big firms and persons are old money and connected. You will never be one of them unless you already are. Law is about who you know and your personality, along with grades etc. It is much more who you know and being at the right place at the right time. Many law students or grads from anywhere couldn't work at best buy... and then they are surprised when they don't get a job. You have to be presentable and professional, motivated and have some charisma... no school will teach you that. The last key is hustle. If you put in work, you will get reward. If you go out and hang a shingle and bust your chops you will get wealthy. I dont know my rank right now, but im looking to graduate with honors, law review and published 3 times with clinical and practical experience. But im not top of my class or anything, and one thing you will learn really quick is that law grades are RANDOM, and your knowledge of the material WILL NOT CORRELATE to good grades in every class. But I can tell you that reputation of the school in the legal community is just as important as rank (if you want to work in state). I have received a fantastic education. My school is a regional state school. Which my other tid bit of advice if you dont go top 50, then your state law schools are going to be your best bet, because they still carry heavy legitimacy in state, regardless of rank. You also need to remember who makes these rankings and its a self perpetuating system. Most of it is based on the idiot LSAT. Your LSAT has NOTHING to do with how good a lawyer you will be. It is MEANINGLESS. However, that is the point, schools want to know if you will dedicate months and years to a meaningless tedious task... just like being the new B***** a big law firm. I cam from a blue collar family and my mistake was not taking a year to study for the LSAT. That said, once you get out of school and practice... nobody gives a rat's a## where you went to school or what your grades are. So beware of the chatty pattys and negative nancys... there is a reason they troll the dulldrums of the internet. Its funny how everybody on the internet is top 10% at top 15 school…. yeah, what are the odds…. that you would on the internet whining like a baby. All this internet stuff is such BS. I go to a T4, we have the lowest mandatory GPA curve in the country. Just getting in to a top 50l is a ticket to graduation, the bottom tiers are by a consensus here (between UNC and Duke friends) much more difficult to do well at. Thats because the curve is a c-. Those of you on a pass/fail… please be quiet. Anyway, I am not here to argue with intellectual powerhouses here. The truth is that everything, including law school is what you make of it. And all this top firm stuff is MOSTLY a pyramid scheme and if you want to be a gerbil and work 70hrs a week for a douche more power to you, and when you dont make partner your realize youve been duped. The fact is that you can always hang a shingle, and you might not get rich, but at least you dont have to be a slave. So many of you work so hard to impress somebody who is dumber than you. Most of these big firms and persons are old money and connected. You will never be one of them unless you already are. Law is about who you know and your personality, along with grades etc. It is much more who you know and being at the right place at the right time. Many law students or grads from anywhere couldn't work at best buy… and then they are surprised when they don't get a job. You have to be presentable and professional, motivated and have some charisma… no school will teach you that. The last key is hustle. If you put in work, you will get reward. If you go out and hang a shingle and bust your chops you will get wealthy. I dont know my rank right now, but im looking to graduate with honors, law review and published 3 times with clinical and practical experience. But im not top of my class or anything, and one thing you will learn really quick is that law grades are RANDOM, and your knowledge of the material WILL NOT CORRELATE to good grades in every class. But I can tell you that reputation of the school in the legal community is just as important as rank (if you want to work in state). I have received a fantastic education. My school is a regional state school. Which my other tid bit of advice if you dont go top 50, then your state law schools are going to be your best bet, because they still carry heavy legitimacy in state, regardless of rank. You also need to remember who makes these rankings and its a self perpetuating system. Most of it is based on the idiot LSAT. Your LSAT has NOTHING to do with how good a lawyer you will be. It is MEANINGLESS. However, that is the point, schools want to know if you will dedicate months and years to a meaningless tedious task… just like being the new B***** a big law firm. I cam from a blue collar family and my mistake was not taking a year to study for the LSAT. That said, once you get out of school and practice… nobody gives a rat's a## where you went to school or what your grades are. So beware of the chatty pattys and negative nancys… there is a reason they troll the dulldrums of the internet.

]]> By: Walk Away With Your Head Held High — Fearfully Optimistic http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/comment-page-2/#comment-220536 Walk Away With Your Head Held High — Fearfully Optimistic Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:23:26 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/05/16/five-myths-about-going-to-law-school/#comment-220536 [...] get immersed in it. It’s hard to explain to someone what law school is like, and there are a number of myths about law school. Every law student should ask themselves this question after a semester or a year: [...] [...] get immersed in it. It's hard to explain to someone what law school is like, and there are a number of myths about law school. Every law student should ask themselves this question after a semester or a year: [...]

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