Comments on: Strategies for getting a good reference http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/12/06/strategies-for-getting-a-good-reference/ Advice at the intersection of work and life Sat, 20 Mar 2010 23:15:53 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc hourly 1 By: Plan B: Build Your Portfolio - The itzBig Blog - Serving the Unserved – Recruiters, Job Seekers, Quiet Working Professionals http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/12/06/strategies-for-getting-a-good-reference/comment-page-1/#comment-6221 Plan B: Build Your Portfolio - The itzBig Blog - Serving the Unserved – Recruiters, Job Seekers, Quiet Working Professionals Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:28:46 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/12/06/strategies-for-getting-a-good-reference/#comment-6221 [...] You’ll also need to get your resume up to speed and you’ll most likely have to gather references and endorsements, a task that’s not as easy as many think. It seems that companies don’t just want the glowing report any more. Call it cynical, but many companies won’t believe that you’re perfect: “When I was hiring, if I called for a reference and the person sounded like they were reading a canned speech I discounted the whole thing and called another person on the list. I was always hunting for someone with candor…And if you are worried you are going to get a bad reference from an old employer, hire a reference check firm to check your own references.” (From Brazen Careerist) [...] [...] You’ll also need to get your resume up to speed and you’ll most likely have to gather references and endorsements, a task that’s not as easy as many think. It seems that companies don’t just want the glowing report any more. Call it cynical, but many companies won’t believe that you’re perfect: “When I was hiring, if I called for a reference and the person sounded like they were reading a canned speech I discounted the whole thing and called another person on the list. I was always hunting for someone with candor…And if you are worried you are going to get a bad reference from an old employer, hire a reference check firm to check your own references.” (From Brazen Careerist) [...]

]]> By: stever http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/12/06/strategies-for-getting-a-good-reference/comment-page-1/#comment-5730 stever Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:41:54 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/12/06/strategies-for-getting-a-good-reference/#comment-5730 it's always good to get a friend (that's quick with the wit) to call your questionable references and pretend they're from some HR group... just ask the basics about teamwork, working alone -- if they ever showed up etc. giving a reference should never be something you do with fingers crossed :) it's always good to get a friend (that's quick with the wit) to call your questionable references and pretend they're from some HR group… just ask the basics about teamwork, working alone — if they ever showed up etc.

giving a reference should never be something you do with fingers crossed :)

]]> By: Brett http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/12/06/strategies-for-getting-a-good-reference/comment-page-1/#comment-5663 Brett Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:59:34 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/12/06/strategies-for-getting-a-good-reference/#comment-5663 How is it even remotely honest or ethical to give an employment reference from a lover, without disclosing your relationship? I've even occasionally restrained myself from listing references of bosses that have crossed into the "friend" category... If "boyfriend" is your idea of a good reference, it's no surprise that your references are too glowing to be believable- and to then suggest to your readers that they coach their references? Absolutely boggles the mind. Alexandra/Jason, you don't lose jobs because you don't have reference letters standing by. You lose jobs because you weren't all that enticing to the employer and they didn't truly value you as a candidate. Or (given the tone of this blog post and the comments) maybe they saw you as someone working ON their career more than they were, well...working! Here's some more ethical advice: always ASK for references if you respect the person, and do so promptly (ie, exit interview or shortly thereafter. Ask when it FEELS right.) BUT- ask if you can LIST them as a reference, not to write a letter of recommendation- and be sure to ask what contact info they would like to be listed. Then, keep in touch- primarily because you respect the person, secondarily because you want to stay in their mind. If it's been a while, CALL them (don't IM or email) and say you're back on the job hunt, and ask if it'd be OK for prospective employers to contact them. Often times you might get asked for a current copy of your resume, especially if that reference has moved to a new company. Have it ready before you call, and say, "absolutely, I can email it to you soon as we hang up." If you pause to think before doing so, you weren't honest enough in your resume, and the other person might wonder if you're having to re-read the resume for lies. When asked for your references, provide them AND briefly describe the working relationship...what company, what kind of work (contracting, long term employment, consulting client, etc.) Saves the other person the trouble of cross-referencing, and smooths their initial conversation with the reference. Hiring managers will appreciate on-the-spot comments, candor, and ability to ask what's important to THEM, more than they will a 1-2 year old gushy letter which talks about how great you are in an area the hiring manager really isn't concerned about. Mike Hobart: how about helping the person with alcoholism, instead of hurting him by giving him a bad reference? Let's not sugar coat things here- getting that (or any other) job can mean the difference between ending up on the street drinking himself to death, or taking a job and having a friend finally say, "Bob, you've got this great job now. Don't lose it to your drinking. Get yourself some help." Or when Bob asks if he can list you as a reference, call HIM and say "your drinking is my only concern. What are/have you doing/done about it?" Let's all remember that some of us are just trying to keep the fridge full and the bills paid, not be "careerists." How is it even remotely honest or ethical to give an employment reference from a lover, without disclosing your relationship? I've even occasionally restrained myself from listing references of bosses that have crossed into the "friend" category…

If "boyfriend" is your idea of a good reference, it's no surprise that your references are too glowing to be believable- and to then suggest to your readers that they coach their references? Absolutely boggles the mind.

Alexandra/Jason, you don't lose jobs because you don't have reference letters standing by. You lose jobs because you weren't all that enticing to the employer and they didn't truly value you as a candidate. Or (given the tone of this blog post and the comments) maybe they saw you as someone working ON their career more than they were, well…working!

Here's some more ethical advice: always ASK for references if you respect the person, and do so promptly (ie, exit interview or shortly thereafter. Ask when it FEELS right.) BUT- ask if you can LIST them as a reference, not to write a letter of recommendation- and be sure to ask what contact info they would like to be listed. Then, keep in touch- primarily because you respect the person, secondarily because you want to stay in their mind. If it's been a while, CALL them (don't IM or email) and say you're back on the job hunt, and ask if it'd be OK for prospective employers to contact them. Often times you might get asked for a current copy of your resume, especially if that reference has moved to a new company. Have it ready before you call, and say, "absolutely, I can email it to you soon as we hang up." If you pause to think before doing so, you weren't honest enough in your resume, and the other person might wonder if you're having to re-read the resume for lies.

When asked for your references, provide them AND briefly describe the working relationship…what company, what kind of work (contracting, long term employment, consulting client, etc.) Saves the other person the trouble of cross-referencing, and smooths their initial conversation with the reference.

Hiring managers will appreciate on-the-spot comments, candor, and ability to ask what's important to THEM, more than they will a 1-2 year old gushy letter which talks about how great you are in an area the hiring manager really isn't concerned about.

Mike Hobart: how about helping the person with alcoholism, instead of hurting him by giving him a bad reference? Let's not sugar coat things here- getting that (or any other) job can mean the difference between ending up on the street drinking himself to death, or taking a job and having a friend finally say, "Bob, you've got this great job now. Don't lose it to your drinking. Get yourself some help." Or when Bob asks if he can list you as a reference, call HIM and say "your drinking is my only concern. What are/have you doing/done about it?"

Let's all remember that some of us are just trying to keep the fridge full and the bills paid, not be "careerists."

]]> By: Mike Hobart http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/12/06/strategies-for-getting-a-good-reference/comment-page-1/#comment-5608 Mike Hobart Sat, 09 Dec 2006 12:24:16 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/12/06/strategies-for-getting-a-good-reference/#comment-5608 I once had to give a reference for somebody that I suspected spent overly much time hitting the bottle at weekends. In the end I diplomatically said that he often called in sick after his day off and left it to the other party to interpret. After all, I didn't actually KNOW. I once had to give a reference for somebody that I suspected spent overly much time hitting the bottle at weekends. In the end I diplomatically said that he often called in sick after his day off and left it to the other party to interpret. After all, I didn't actually KNOW.

]]> By: Jason Alba http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/12/06/strategies-for-getting-a-good-reference/comment-page-1/#comment-5160 Jason Alba Wed, 06 Dec 2006 18:46:28 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/12/06/strategies-for-getting-a-good-reference/#comment-5160 I agree with Alexandra on both points - great post and don't wait to get the letter until you need it! I never did that because I knew it would be a pain to keep the letters organized (I think I know a GREAT website for that, now ;)), but George Blomgren just posted on a candidate that he helped that did not have any references ready - he practically had a job offer up to that point - and lost the job! http://employment.typepad.com/for_job_seekers/2006/12/tough_situation.html I agree with Alexandra on both points – great post and don't wait to get the letter until you need it! I never did that because I knew it would be a pain to keep the letters organized (I think I know a GREAT website for that, now ;)), but George Blomgren just posted on a candidate that he helped that did not have any references ready – he practically had a job offer up to that point – and lost the job!

http://employment.typepad.com/for_job_seekers/2006/12/tough_situation.html

]]> By: Alexandra Levit http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/12/06/strategies-for-getting-a-good-reference/comment-page-1/#comment-5146 Alexandra Levit Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:34:15 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/12/06/strategies-for-getting-a-good-reference/#comment-5146 Hi Penelope, great post as usual. I'd also like to suggest that people not wait until they actually need references before trying to recruit them. The best time to ask someone to be a reference for you is right after you've worked with them, when they're still riding the high of how wonderful you are. Once they're on board, you can then give them a call to brief them on what you want them to say regarding specific opportunities. Hi Penelope, great post as usual. I'd also like to suggest that people not wait until they actually need references before trying to recruit them. The best time to ask someone to be a reference for you is right after you've worked with them, when they're still riding the high of how wonderful you are. Once they're on board, you can then give them a call to brief them on what you want them to say regarding specific opportunities.

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