Comments on: Your family would be better off with a housewife (so would mine) http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/ Advice at the intersection of work and life Mon, 08 Sep 2008 04:26:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Irene http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-146751 Irene Fri, 02 May 2008 01:55:03 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-146751 I have to admit I was completely horrified by this recent post, and I'm actually quite happy that I've never happened upon this blog before. I’ll make sure to never return again. You’ve done a fabulous job of unraveling the hard work generations of women undertook to allow women like yourself to make vast, sweeping generalizations over an entire sex based on a couple of statistics from an *opinion* piece. Perhaps, it was a particularly rough day for you of blogging and taking care of the kids but you should really think before you write. First off, statistics aren’t “clear”. In fact, statistics are usually used out of context (case in point) and are biased to the collector of the information. How large exactly was the sample study used to determine the satisfaction of women professionally or personally? And can you really verify that these people used in the study were accurately represented? I don’t think your argument holds water. While I know a great deal of housewives that genuinely fulfilled, I know many housewives who are bored and feel underappreciated by their family members whom they cater to. You are making the assumption that a household runs smoother and the family is happier if a woman remains a full-time housewife, but in reality I know plenty of households run by full-time housewives that are in complete disarray. I know of housewives who can barely complete their household tasks because they are more preoccupied with catching up with their friends or their favorite TV shows. I know housewives who were clearly not involved with their kids activities by choice even though they have the time. And, yes, I can, of course, present a slew of examples of women who are doing a magnificent job just at home as well as many women who are dissatisfied with balancing both work and their home lives, but I think the point is that it all depends. There are so many unique factors to what makes a situation work and what makes someone happy or unhappy that prescribing a life choice into two options (be a housewife and be happy OR a professional and unhappy) is pretty mind-blowing. A large part also depends on the common values that partners agree to from the onset of their partnership. I think the point is that women *now* have options to determine what they want to do. I believe that being able to make a *choice* about staying at home vs. balancing work and home life is the key to being satisfied. Also being stressed out about juggling these work and home life does not necessarily mean a woman or even her family is unhappy. It just means that she’s DAMN busy. Your views reflect your age. A lot. I’m part of a generation of women *and* men who do not see work and home life strictly defined by gender or any “clear” statistics. Just to let you know, I fully intend to enjoy being a working mother and have no intentions of seeking men with trust funds. But please, do let me know how that goes for you. And to be fair to my future husband, I’ll make sure to be explicit with him before we get married that regardless of the salary amount either of us will make that there is full expectation that we will support each other and our family in every way--together. I have to admit I was completely horrified by this recent post, and I'm actually quite happy that I've never happened upon this blog before. I’ll make sure to never return again. You’ve done a fabulous job of unraveling the hard work generations of women undertook to allow women like yourself to make vast, sweeping generalizations over an entire sex based on a couple of statistics from an *opinion* piece. Perhaps, it was a particularly rough day for you of blogging and taking care of the kids but you should really think before you write. First off, statistics aren’t “clear”. In fact, statistics are usually used out of context (case in point) and are biased to the collector of the information. How large exactly was the sample study used to determine the satisfaction of women professionally or personally? And can you really verify that these people used in the study were accurately represented?

I don’t think your argument holds water. While I know a great deal of housewives that genuinely fulfilled, I know many housewives who are bored and feel underappreciated by their family members whom they cater to. You are making the assumption that a household runs smoother and the family is happier if a woman remains a full-time housewife, but in reality I know plenty of households run by full-time housewives that are in complete disarray. I know of housewives who can barely complete their household tasks because they are more preoccupied with catching up with their friends or their favorite TV shows. I know housewives who were clearly not involved with their kids activities by choice even though they have the time. And, yes, I can, of course, present a slew of examples of women who are doing a magnificent job just at home as well as many women who are dissatisfied with balancing both work and their home lives, but I think the point is that it all depends. There are so many unique factors to what makes a situation work and what makes someone happy or unhappy that prescribing a life choice into two options (be a housewife and be happy OR a professional and unhappy) is pretty mind-blowing. A large part also depends on the common values that partners agree to from the onset of their partnership.
I think the point is that women *now* have options to determine what they want to do. I believe that being able to make a *choice* about staying at home vs. balancing work and home life is the key to being satisfied. Also being stressed out about juggling these work and home life does not necessarily mean a woman or even her family is unhappy. It just means that she’s DAMN busy.

Your views reflect your age. A lot. I’m part of a generation of women *and* men who do not see work and home life strictly defined by gender or any “clear” statistics. Just to let you know, I fully intend to enjoy being a working mother and have no intentions of seeking men with trust funds. But please, do let me know how that goes for you. And to be fair to my future husband, I’ll make sure to be explicit with him before we get married that regardless of the salary amount either of us will make that there is full expectation that we will support each other and our family in every way–together.

]]> By: SonofRobots http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-146043 SonofRobots Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:14:05 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-146043 Speaking of a son of over achieving parents... I can tell you that it royally f'd up my life. You keep forgetting that parents have radically different personalities and parenting styles, It's not simply just about work, not-work or staying home with the kids, etc. It's NOT JUST ABOUT YOU, lets not forget this. Many people bring lives into the world when they are pretty immature. Life is way more complicated then "oh you must be jealous of me and my perfect family" etc. Parents who are never around can have enormous influences and effects on their kids. Many workaholics are certifiably insane. The truth is in america the culture of work and 'achievement' (or rather corporate enslavement) is lauded, and anything off the beaten path is disdained. Women can be perfectly happy at home, so can men. In our modern society the speed at which it occurs truncates human development, so many people live their entire lives based on lies, other peopels expectations, idealisms and romanticizations of things. The work-life balance issue is pretty big. To me my parents were food and toy dispensers, little more. At times it was hard to even view them as people, being the career robots that they were. The truth is people today have no commitment or moral fibre what-so-ever. The law of diminishing returns kicks in, in every single relationship. Where you will distort reality and start blowing up small things or normal things in life into crisis and then end things in divorce. The truth is most adults today are children, all because they've had their heads stuffesd with distortions and romanticizations of how real life is. Speaking of a son of over achieving parents… I can tell you that it royally f'd up my life.

You keep forgetting that parents have radically different personalities and parenting styles, It's not simply just about work, not-work or staying home with the kids, etc.

It's NOT JUST ABOUT YOU, lets not forget this. Many people bring lives into the world when they are pretty immature. Life is way more complicated then "oh you must be jealous of me and my perfect family" etc.

Parents who are never around can have enormous influences and effects on their kids.

Many workaholics are certifiably insane. The truth is in america the culture of work and 'achievement' (or rather corporate enslavement) is lauded, and anything off the beaten path is disdained.

Women can be perfectly happy at home, so can men.
In our modern society the speed at which it occurs truncates human development, so many people live their entire lives based on lies, other peopels expectations, idealisms and romanticizations of things.

The work-life balance issue is pretty big. To me my parents were food and toy dispensers, little more. At times it was hard to even view them as people, being the career robots that they were.

The truth is people today have no commitment or moral fibre what-so-ever.

The law of diminishing returns kicks in, in every single relationship. Where you will distort reality and start blowing up small things or normal things in life into crisis and then end things in divorce.

The truth is most adults today are children, all because they've had their heads stuffesd with distortions and romanticizations of how real life is.

]]> By: Lisa http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-142704 Lisa Wed, 09 Apr 2008 02:41:56 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-142704 Penelope, I truly enjoy your articles and this one is of particular interest to me. I am a newlywed who is considering the role of stay at home mom when the time comes. For all of the commenters who have written about the article I wonder what type of hours they are thinking the husband and wife of this hypothetical couple works. I personally work 60-70 hours a week and travel 16 weeks out of the year. My husband has the luxury of not traveling, however he works 50 hours a week on average, with peaks of 65 during busier times of the year. I am not foolish enough to think we would be able to raise happy children with those work schedules. Do the men and women that are saying that a family with two working parents can be done well consider the hours of an actual career work week? The hours put in on the weekend? The travel? My mom and dad each worked 40 hour weeks, and yes I was raised well, but I find that these days the 40 hour work week is more of a myth than a reality. Penelope,
I truly enjoy your articles and this one is of particular interest to me. I am a newlywed who is considering the role of stay at home mom when the time comes. For all of the commenters who have written about the article I wonder what type of hours they are thinking the husband and wife of this hypothetical couple works. I personally work 60-70 hours a week and travel 16 weeks out of the year. My husband has the luxury of not traveling, however he works 50 hours a week on average, with peaks of 65 during busier times of the year. I am not foolish enough to think we would be able to raise happy children with those work schedules. Do the men and women that are saying that a family with two working parents can be done well consider the hours of an actual career work week? The hours put in on the weekend? The travel? My mom and dad each worked 40 hour weeks, and yes I was raised well, but I find that these days the 40 hour work week is more of a myth than a reality.

]]> By: Mark W. http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-138282 Mark W. Sun, 09 Mar 2008 20:27:20 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-138282 I liked Pat's observation (9/7/07) about kids wanting to have other kids around to play with - they don't miss the parents! I've noticed that with one of my nieces (3 years old going on ?). Maybe it's just her personality but when she spots another kid around her age, she just goes up to them and starts talking to them - just forgets her parents and uncle. Kids need adults available to meet their needs and to referee when skirmishes come up with other kids. The trick is to find that right combination of kid-parent and kid-kid time - easier said than done. Also one thing I didn't see mentioned is how much more families are separated by distance compared to the fifties and sixties. Grandparents, aunts, uncles, and other family members were generally in the same locality and were within fairly easy driving distance from each other. I enjoyed my time with my grandparents and I know my parents enjoyed the time off. :) I liked Pat's observation (9/7/07) about kids wanting to have other kids around to play with - they don't miss the parents! I've noticed that with one of my nieces (3 years old going on ?). Maybe it's just her personality but when she spots another kid around her age, she just goes up to them and starts talking to them - just forgets her parents and uncle. Kids need adults available to meet their needs and to referee when skirmishes come up with other kids. The trick is to find that right combination of kid-parent and kid-kid time - easier said than done.
Also one thing I didn't see mentioned is how much more families are separated by distance compared to the fifties and sixties. Grandparents, aunts, uncles, and other family members were generally in the same locality and were within fairly easy driving distance from each other. I enjoyed my time with my grandparents and I know my parents enjoyed the time off. :)

]]> By: J.C. http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-136392 J.C. Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:01:08 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-136392 Everyone forgets about the one biggest bloc of SAHDs: the FARMERS. Everyone forgets about the one biggest bloc of SAHDs: the FARMERS.

]]> By: bogdana http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-134548 bogdana Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:43:53 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-134548 hi! i read your column just googling for random 'how to be a better housewife' stuff because I'm pretty bad at keeping a spotless house. Basically I was looking for cleaning tips. I myself am not exactly a housewife, but in no way do I have a huge career. I feel that statistics are good blueprints but every relationship is different. It depends how shallow the people are. My husband and I have faced great personal challenges. We both want each other to succeed and be happy. I cannot imagine not having a job, even just the one I have now, part time pharmacy tech in a hospital. I have always been a work-driven person, and even though I have the option of going to school and not working, I do not feel that I can quit working, even though it would generally free me up for homework and house tasks. we dont have kids yet. I imagine that I will be home most of the week when we do have them... when I graduate in two years, i'm going to be an RN, and part time I can make much more money than I make now. I agree that having someone home is very beneficial to everyone; but for me to never work, I dont think I could personally handle it. Thus, my marriage would be in jeopardy because I *wasn't* working! I certainly won't be a 'powerhouse career' person. I have never hated my job, I get a great deal of satisfaction from working, even though I only work part time right now. I doubt I could be a full time careerist and full time mother (not to mention my husband is paralyzed so I do almost all of the housework plus help him do some more difficult tasks). I think both would definitely suffer. well that was my two cents on a 1 1/2 year old column. have a great weekend! hi! i read your column just googling for random 'how to be a better housewife' stuff because I'm pretty bad at keeping a spotless house. Basically I was looking for cleaning tips. I myself am not exactly a housewife, but in no way do I have a huge career.
I feel that statistics are good blueprints but every relationship is different. It depends how shallow the people are. My husband and I have faced great personal challenges. We both want each other to succeed and be happy. I cannot imagine not having a job, even just the one I have now, part time pharmacy tech in a hospital. I have always been a work-driven person, and even though I have the option of going to school and not working, I do not feel that I can quit working, even though it would generally free me up for homework and house tasks.
we dont have kids yet. I imagine that I will be home most of the week when we do have them… when I graduate in two years, i'm going to be an RN, and part time I can make much more money than I make now. I agree that having someone home is very beneficial to everyone; but for me to never work, I dont think I could personally handle it. Thus, my marriage would be in jeopardy because I *wasn't* working!
I certainly won't be a 'powerhouse career' person. I have never hated my job, I get a great deal of satisfaction from working, even though I only work part time right now. I doubt I could be a full time careerist and full time mother (not to mention my husband is paralyzed so I do almost all of the housework plus help him do some more difficult tasks). I think both would definitely suffer.
well that was my two cents on a 1 1/2 year old column. have a great weekend!

]]> By: Jerry http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-123967 Jerry Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:43:25 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-123967 Penelope - I've read this entry and several others about your marriage and the problems in it. My Take: If the woman is happy staying at home and being the fulltime parent and housekeeper, so be it. If she wants to be the priamry breadwinnner, go for it. But, unless the male in the relationship is OK with this and happy with himself and what he is doing inside and outside the marriage, this is NOT going to work. The male ego is just too fragile, in most cases, to handle being "second fiddle" to a woman's successful career. The only exception I can think of may be the Clintons'. Both have high powered careers but they're both happy doing what they are doing and they support each other. I, for one, have told my wife several times that if she could make enough money to support both of us, the kids, and our lifestyle, I would be happy to stay at home. I wouldn't disconnect totally from the outside world but I would definitely pursue interests of my own. I had a life of my own before we met and if I were to be the "primary caregiver" (whatever that's supposed to be) it still wouldn't stop me from living my own life and pursuing what I feel to be important. The "housewife" concept is crap. This pre-defined role in the household stuff is BS. Figure out what needs to be done, who is going to do it and when, and agree to it and stick with it. Penelope -

I've read this entry and several others about your marriage and the problems in it. My Take:

If the woman is happy staying at home and being the fulltime parent and housekeeper, so be it. If she wants to be the priamry breadwinnner, go for it. But, unless the male in the relationship is OK with this and happy with himself and what he is doing inside and outside the marriage, this is NOT going to work. The male ego is just too fragile, in most cases, to handle being "second fiddle" to a woman's successful career.

The only exception I can think of may be the Clintons'. Both have high powered careers but they're both happy doing what they are doing and they support each other.

I, for one, have told my wife several times that if she could make enough money to support both of us, the kids, and our lifestyle, I would be happy to stay at home. I wouldn't disconnect totally from the outside world but I would definitely pursue interests of my own. I had a life of my own before we met and if I were to be the "primary caregiver" (whatever that's supposed to be) it still wouldn't stop me from living my own life and pursuing what I feel to be important.

The "housewife" concept is crap. This pre-defined role in the household stuff is BS. Figure out what needs to be done, who is going to do it and when, and agree to it and stick with it.

]]> By: Kathleen http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-115877 Kathleen Sun, 02 Dec 2007 12:55:36 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-115877 Is it just me, or do most of the commenters here seem to think Penelope wrote the uber-sexist article she linked to on Forbes? Folks, she didn't write it. She offered her own input on the subject... Is it just me, or do most of the commenters here seem to think Penelope wrote the uber-sexist article she linked to on Forbes? Folks, she didn't write it. She offered her own input on the subject…

]]> By: Kaye http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-111396 Kaye Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:14:50 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-111396 <p>Thank you for your wise advise to prospective parents: don't have kids if you have a dual career marriage. It is not fair to the kids to be raised by nannies or daycare, and not fair to the mom to try to juggle both. This is one of the reasons I do not have kids, because I did not want to sacrifice my career, yet I do not believe in nannies raising my child. Thank you. </p> <p>Kidfree Kaye<br /> </p> Thank you for your wise advise to prospective parents: don't have kids if you have a dual career marriage. It is not fair to the kids to be raised by nannies or daycare, and not fair to the mom to try to juggle both. This is one of the reasons I do not have kids, because I did not want to sacrifice my career, yet I do not believe in nannies raising my child. Thank you.

Kidfree Kaye

]]> By: NoeValleyJim http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-110226 NoeValleyJim Thu, 01 Nov 2007 07:17:57 +0000 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/27/your-family-would-be-better-off-with-a-housewife-so-would-mine/#comment-110226 I think it is odd that you have not even had one comment from a "stay at home Dad" or someone who has aspired to be one. I have a degree from a good university, a good job and career and spent a number of years looking for a woman who was interested in marrying a guy that would stay at home and raise the kids. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I was able to find plenty of dating partners, but only one woman who was seriously interested in this arrangement. We were incompatible (I won't go into it, but she was like a typical bad guy more than anything) and finally met my current wife, who claimed to be interested in such an arrangement. But then six months after we started dating, said she was really interested in "super-mom" i.e. someone who would do all the cooking, cleaning and childcare and also bring home a healthy paycheck. I have only known one woman who is seriously capable of both supporting a family and is interested in marrying a stay-at-home dad. And I know hundreds of self-proclaimed feminists. So the truth is, almost no women are willing and able to switch gender roles. As it is, we both work, we both make good money, we both have good careers, and we hire a nanny and a maid to help us out. I am probably more involved in the child rearing than she is. I do almost all of the housework the maid does not do. It works out okay. There is no way my wife would be happy staying at home and the truth is, mostly due to sexism, I make 50% more than her, so there is no way we can afford for me to not work. At least not in this expensive city we live in. I probably hold up at least my half of the household, but I am okay with that. I guess I am kind of unusual for a guy in that way. I am saving every penny and trying to retire at 50, so I can still spend lots of time with my kids and enjoy my life. At least my wife is thrifty enough that this is not impossible with her. I guess it would have been nice if I could have found a rich beautiful young woman with a trust fund as well. I actually think that men shopping for wives should be looking for equal co-partners, but I guess in that way I am more of a feminist than you. I would hate for my daughters to grow up believing that they were anything but fully equal to men. I think it is odd that you have not even had one comment from a "stay at home Dad" or someone who has aspired to be one. I have a degree from a good university, a good job and career and spent a number of years looking for a woman who was interested in marrying a guy that would stay at home and raise the kids.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I was able to find plenty of dating partners, but only one woman who was seriously interested in this arrangement. We were incompatible (I won't go into it, but she was like a typical bad guy more than anything) and finally met my current wife, who claimed to be interested in such an arrangement. But then six months after we started dating, said she was really interested in "super-mom" i.e. someone who would do all the cooking, cleaning and childcare and also bring home a healthy paycheck.

I have only known one woman who is seriously capable of both supporting a family and is interested in marrying a stay-at-home dad. And I know hundreds of self-proclaimed feminists. So the truth is, almost no women are willing and able to switch gender roles.

As it is, we both work, we both make good money, we both have good careers, and we hire a nanny and a maid to help us out. I am probably more involved in the child rearing than she is. I do almost all of the housework the maid does not do. It works out okay. There is no way my wife would be happy staying at home and the truth is, mostly due to sexism, I make 50% more than her, so there is no way we can afford for me to not work. At least not in this expensive city we live in. I probably hold up at least my half of the household, but I am okay with that. I guess I am kind of unusual for a guy in that way.

I am saving every penny and trying to retire at 50, so I can still spend lots of time with my kids and enjoy my life. At least my wife is thrifty enough that this is not impossible with her.

I guess it would have been nice if I could have found a rich beautiful young woman with a trust fund as well. I actually think that men shopping for wives should be looking for equal co-partners, but I guess in that way I am more of a feminist than you.

I would hate for my daughters to grow up believing that they were anything but fully equal to men.

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